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June 22

Possible dangling modifier

In the 2006 FIFA World Cup qualification article, there is the following sentence: The original distribution of places between the six confederations called for Oceania to be given one full spot in the final 32; however, this idea was seen as giving Australia a virtually certain place in the finals, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region. To my understanding, there could be a blatant dangling modifier here (see a recent question on this page), but English is a foreign language for me and I'm not sure if the sentence is not actually all right. Is it all right, and if not, how could it be best revised? (This probably belongs to the respective talk page, but I opted for posting it here because it would certainly receive a faster response and, possibly, further elucidations.) --Магьосник (talk) 01:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

One problem as I read it: the antecedent of "being" is "place," though that's a grammatical quibble and most people would figure out the sentence means Australia. If I were editing it, I might put:

...one full spot in the final 32. However, this idea was seen as virtually guaranteeing a place in the finals to Australia, the strongest footballing nation in the region.

--- OtherDave (talk) 01:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think the antecedent of "being" is "this idea", when the author meant for it to be Australia, so it certainly counts as a dangling modifier in my books. Paul Davidson (talk) 01:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Which book is that?

On the OP, because this is an utterance of a native speaker who has good grasp in language, isn’t it bit of pedantry that one looks further in to this composition?

On pedantry, however, the problem might be only the phrase ‘as giving Australia’ in the sentence, and the last clause is a grammatically-correct adjectival clause (modifier). Although a gerund is often used with a noun this way, because they are nouns (giving Australia), the complication can be cleared by adding a preposition 'to' as 'as giving to Australia' without changing the meaning of the sentence. Correct? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You could certain add "to," as suggested, but that does nothing for the awkward subordinate clause following the final comma in the original sentence. "Being" is moping around with neither a close-by subject nor a possessive pronoun to keep it company; what it modifies it at best unclear. I don't see "...as giving to Australia a virtually certain place in the finals, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region" as much of an improvement in terms of either clarity or readability. --- OtherDave (talk) 00:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

If so, to pitch the anaphoric relation of the adjectival clause to its antecedent, this can turn like as stated before and the anaphora as 'being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region'--like,The original distribution of places between the six confederations called for Oceania to be given one full spot in the final 32; however, this idea was seen as giving Australia, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region, a virtually certain place in the finals. Correct? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 02:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Seeing "anaphoric" and "like as stated" in a sentence from someone worried about pedantry, I don't think I'll argue about what's "correct." As anaphor resolution points out in its technical way, it's difficult sometimes to figure out what an expression's referring to, which was part of the OP's question. Another part was to ask how best to revise the ungainly sentence. Now there are two choices. I didn't see mine as the best possible, but it beats a poke in the eye by Noam Chomsky. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:58, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I used OtherDave's suggestion to revise the sentence, but I also preserved the "by far" part. Now it goes as follows: this idea was seen as virtually guaranteeing a place in the finals to Australia, by far the strongest footballing nation in the region. Anyone could revise it further. --Магьосник (talk) 01:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

A better wording, without any awkward word order, might be guaranteeing Australia a place in the finals, as they were by far the strongest... rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:57, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Isn’t the alteration semantically neutralized here for an epistemic reading while the actual utterance is non-epistemic to its actual syntactic and semantic contexts in a way that has no parallel to a subjunctive force (like, as if they were) or a past construal (like, as they were)?

That is, the original form carries a demotic evidential force in present tense in terms of how the anaphora relates its antecedent. -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Martian Language

I have to do my thesis about "Martian Language". I read your page on Wikipedia about it, and I saw that Wikipedia have a lot of information about this subject. Since this subject is quite a lot difficult and I haven't yet find a text written in Martian Language, so, if possible, I wish you help me. I look up the sites about Martian script translator and I bought a book written by Feng Yuh about Martian Language but find a text in Martian Language is quite difficult. Thank you for the helpfullness. Yours faithfully. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Francarara (talk • contribs) 08:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Note to editors: Martian language. --mboverload@ 09:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

And the Wikipedia Barnstar made of Illudium Q-36 goes to mboverload for keeping this little fella out of the equation:

File:Marvinthemartain.jpg

-- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 11:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

this webpage might help? You should use a Hong Kong-based search engine, in any case. Kayau Voting IS evil 15:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The Martian language article has the beginning of the preamble of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Martian Language. It's a good topic - if it were me, I'd probably draw parallels to Rebus writing and L33tspeak as a kind of playful, creative, word puzzle meme. Indeterminate (talk) 23:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

'Dirty big' and 'dirty great'

I was just out in the garden minding my own business, when this dirty big/great dog came bounding out of nowhere and jumped all over me.

In that sort of sentence, the 'dirty' has nothing to do with the state of the dog's cleanliness. It's a sort of intensifier of 'big' or 'great'. I've looked in a few places but can find nothing about this use of 'dirty'. I'm sure it's colloquial and may even qualify as slang. I know it only from Australian usage, but it may occur elsewhere for all I know.

I'd be grateful for any information. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It's used in the UK: my experience is usually as 'dirty great' rather than with 'big'. [1] and [2] cite it as British English, but with no etymology; [3] and [4] make no mention. Bazza (talk) 13:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I was going to say, I'm British and I've heard "dirty great" and "dirty great big" but never "dirty big". It's slang, yes – and low slang, at that. You wouldn't hear it said on the playing fields of Eton, put it that way. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 13:20, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard it in American English. I know it only from Harry Potter. For example, Ron says at one point, "If you must know, when I was three, Fred turned my – my teddy bear into a dirty great spider because I broke his toy broomstick." +Angr 14:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The OED has it "Used adverbially as an intensive: very, exceedingly. slang." with earliest citations from 1920 (John Galsworthy), and 1943 (Dictionary of Australian Slang). DuncanHill (talk) 14:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

How interesting that Galsworthy uses it. He tended to write about upper class types, not the sort who would use this expression; maybe he has one of the Cockney chambermaids saying it downstairs. But how interesting that it's not recorded before 1920. It has a solid place in Australian English of a certain register, and I wouldn't have thought that anything an Englishman wrote in a novel as late as 1920 could possibly have had that influence. Obviously, Galsworthy was using an established expression and did not coin it. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The Galsworthy quotation is "'E wants to syve 'is dirty great 'ouse." It's from Foundations. DuncanHill (talk) 20:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

This reminds me of the American expression "big old hairy," used to describe any number of objects, emotions, or situations that aren't strictly speaking old or hairy. "My brother used to have this big old hairy Oldsmobile, but when the brakes failed and he rammed the garage door, my dad had a big old hairy fit." --- OtherDave (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Rarely heard "dirty big" either but my slang dictionary lists it. I would guess it is a minced oath, instead of saying "fucking big" or "bloody great" or the like, a placeholder is used that deliberately acknowledges that a dirty word has been hidden. Particularly likely is "damn great" being self-censored after the initial sound and changed to "dirty great", similar to the use of "sugar" as a replacement for "shit". meltBanana 00:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC) Oh and "old hairy" is pretty close to "Old Harry" a common name for the devil and frequently used as an oath. That makes for rather tenuous slang, but then slang perceived as obscene can get pretty tenuous. meltBanana 00:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Similar to the New England (or only Boston?) adverb "wicked" -- e.g. (baseball): "Nomar was a wicked good hitter!" 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The minced oath theory rings true with me. Never occurred to me before. Thanks for that idea, MeltBanana. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:43, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

"Dirty big" is used extensively in Newfoundland, Canada - try searching for "dirty big" + newfoundland 18:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

What is the right word here

You call someone who displays honesty as honest, you call someone who displays bravery as brave, what should you call someone who displays integrity? Integral? Googlemeister (talk) 14:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

No that wouldn't work. Try principled, honourable, respectable, moral, upright, ethical... --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

But none of those words, strictly speaking, are a full and accurate description of one showing integrity. Similar yes, but not quite the same. Googlemeister (talk) 21:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I just checked several dictionaries under www.onelook.com, and none of them shows an adjective corresponding to "integrity". So you just have to say that the person "has integrity" or a similar expression. English is like that. --Anonymous, 21:17 UTC, June 22, 2010.

Wiktionary mentions integrous. Rare - 0.01% "frequency in usage", whatever that means. Vimescarrot (talk) 22:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Integrous—that's what I would think, regardless of actual usage frequency.—6birc (talk) 12:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You're entitled to say that if you like, but most people would wonder what you were talking about since 'integrous' is not a word in most people's vocabulary. As Anonymous says, the best answer is "person of integrity" or similar, rather than one burdened by the solitary shackles of singleness. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Re "whatever that means": I didn't know, either, until I checked [[wikt:integrous]], which clarifies that integrity sees more than 10,000 times more use than integrous. HTH. See also the usage note there.—msh210℠ 20:33, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Honorable, noble, trustworthy, upright, righteous. 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Crystal Chrystal surname

Hi. Does anyone know the origin/meaning of the surnames above. Thanks.87.102.66.101 (talk) 18:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Have you read the article "Crystal (given name)"? Gabbe (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yesno. I was asking about Crystal (surname) ! 87.102.66.101 (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that it's the same surname as McChrystal (currently much in the news in the U.S.), which is an anglicized spelling of the Irish name Mac Criostail. That name means "son of Criostal", making "Criostal" apparently a first name in Irish, but I don't know the origin of it. Perhaps it's of the same Greek origin as the English girl's name Crystal mentioned above, or perhaps it's somehow connected with Críost "Christ" (the Irish equivalent of Christopher is Críostóir; maybe Criostal is a variant or nickname of Críostóir, I don't know), or maybe it's not related to either of those and the similarity is coincidental. Sorry I can't help you further. +Angr 21:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - found this from that http://www.libraryireland.com/names/men/criostal-christopher.php and http://www.libraryireland.com/names/men/criostoir-christopher.php which seems a likely answer given the 'Mac' 87.102.66.101 (talk) 22:07, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The Oxford University Press A Dictionary of Surnames, 1988, ISBN 0192115928, has them as a Scots name, from a Scottish pet form of the given name Christopher. DuncanHill (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

There also Jewish Americans whose ancestors immigrated from Eastern Europe named Crystal and Kristol etc. I am assuming their current spelling might be derived from Kristall or Kryształ but I found nothing conclusive online. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting - there's a similar thing with the MacCarrolls, O'Carrolls (Irish/Scots) and various forms of Korol/Karl in eastern and central european surnames, both of which I've seen 'anglicised' to carroll, but with different original etymology meanings.

The nearest thing to "kristol" I can think of in an eastern european language is 'Krivy Rih Stal' (bent horn steel?)- which must be totally unrelated. Could the jewish surname be anything related to their trade eg http://www.kristallsmolensk.com/ (since having a name that derives from "christ bearing" seems unlikely for somone Jewish?

I did a bit more searching and found that there were definately jews living in Poland around 1900 with the surname "Kristol" (spelt like that). 87.102.66.101 (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Kristol surname

ok Does anyone know the origin/etymology of the central/east european surname Kristol ? 87.102.66.101 (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I would guess it's from Kristall, the German word for "crystal." All the Kristols I know of are Jewish, and because Jewish people didn't traditionally have Western-style surnames, they got to pick their own when governments began requiring them in the late 18th and 19th centuries. That's why a lot of Jewish people have names like "Rosen," "Bloom" or "Gold." "Crystal" sounds like a pretty name, so it was probably chosen just for that reason. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That was my guess too. I was just wondering if it came from an original name eg "Salomon" >> "Salmon".77.86.123.157 (talk) 00:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

June 23

translation

Is there any English saying for 口同鼻拗? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciesse 203 (talk • contribs) 09:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide the meaning of the phrase? I've looked into theXiandai Hanyu Cidian but it isn't there. Is it slang? Kayau Voting IS evil 15:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Google gives over 1,200,000 hits for that specific character combination, but, surprisingly I can't find it in any Chengyu dictionaries. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I just checked with a Chinese colleague, and was told that the four-character structure made it look like a proverb, but she wasn't familiar with it, and it didn't make any sense. Literally, it translates "mouth with nose bend/contrary," so "the mouth argues with the nose?" A pointless argument? "Argument for argument's sake" is the closest thing in English to that idea that I can think of, or maybe "liking the sound of one's own voice" to imply that the argument is meaningless. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 17:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not a Chengyu, it's a Cantonese Xiehouyu (allegorical proverb) for expressing the situation where one argues against himself to no avail. It literally means "the mouth argues with the nose". See: http://www.douban.com/group/topic/2918008/ The above English translations are fine, depending on the context. --Kvasir (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, I assumed he meant mandarin. Makes perfect sense in Cantonese then, though I've never heard of the phrase. Kayau Voting IS evil 09:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian

Look at the talk about WP:RUS, please. As you see, I am convinced that WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian. --Finrus (talk) 19:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

And your question is ....? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

My question is, that is my opinion WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian right or wrong. --Finrus (talk) 19:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I agree with your point, but the Ref Desk is not the place to continue the dialogue. Sussexonian (talk) 20:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Poetry

Not sure if this belongs in here or in Humanities. I would like to find a really good website or (preferably) dead tree book that teaches the mechanics of poetical forms - meter, rhymes, etc. etc. for a variety of different types of poetry, including examples of each. WP actually has a bunch of really good articles, including an outstanding FA for poetry, but I'm looking more for something a bit more... "hands on" if that makes sense; something that is more of a manual or "how to" than overview. If it critiques specific or famous poems and/or provides exercises to try, that would definitely be a benefit. Any suggestions? I've been reading a variety of poetry and I can tell I'm not "getting" some of the mechanics being used, so I'd like to get a better grasp of that and/or try my hand at my own. Matt Deres (talk) 20:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

What sort of level? Detailed, or more introductory? I recently read a good one in the introduction category (with and odd, almost narrative style), but from what you say, a textbook-style work might be better? - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

A good textbook might be just the thing. All too often, they seem to be of the type that really should be ripped out and disposed of, though, hence my request for guidance :). Between WP and my dim recollections of English class, I think I'm past most of what would be covered in a introductory text... or at least, so I think. Let me put it this way - I understand what iamb is, but I don't always understand why it would be used in a particular instance versus trochee and I understand the difference between masculine and feminine rhyme, but I don't understand why some forms require you to alternate between them (such as classical French poetry) - what does alternating them "do" to the poem versus having them all, say, masculine? (Our article on Sonnet 20 actually goes into this, but the explanation kind of gets overwhelmed by conjecture about Shakespeare's sexuality). Matt Deres (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm working from memory, but The Book of Forms: a Handbook of Poetics, by Lewis Turco, had a daunting number of forms. Some of the examples were perhaps not the best. You can browse it via Google Books and see if it meets your needs. --- OtherDave (talk) 04:43, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hebrew inscription

What does this Hebrew inscription say?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/17/shrine2_2.jpg

It is from Ezra's Tomb. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure, but it goes something like this:

Eternally remembered will be the righteous man

???

A floor

of marble stones in the original place

of the burial of our lord Ezra the scribe

may he protect us, Amen, and paintings and basins of the women's section (?)

The dear lady Asi???

??? the wife of

??? Menashe

??? (acronyms that i don't understand)

??? day ???

of Kislev 5669 (approximately December 1908)

???

Sorry about all the question marks - i failed to read these parts.

It is probably a memorial plaque that says in whose memory the money for the improvements of the religious building was donated. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:14, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

More or less, yes.

The floor

Of marble stones in the place of ...

Our teacher Ezra Hasofer of blessed memory

And the paintings and ... of the court {surrounding it}

The honorable lady Asi

328 {around 1568}, the wife of

... Menashe

{more years and abbreviations}

I disagree with the previous editor about the year. Debresser (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is the almost-complete original text (I've put any conjectural text - in square brackets, and my own explanations - in braces):

לזכר עולם יהיה צדיק

מתנדבת

?

רצפת

אבני שיש

במקום המקודש

[של ציון עזרא הסו[פר

[...]יע"א {=יגן עלינו אמן} וציורי וכיוּרי העזרה ב

[הגבירה היקרה סי' {=סיניורה} אס[תר

מב"ת {=מנשים באוהל תבורך} אשת

[...] צאלח מנשה [...]

[לעלוי נשמת בנה הב' {=הבחור} הנ[עים

רחמים נ"ע {=נוחו עדן} נלב"ע {=נפטר לבית עולמו} יום

[...]כסליו התרס"ט ב [...]

{רענן, יע"א {=יגן עלינו אמן} תנצ[ב"א] {=תהא נשמתו צרורה בצרור החיים

TRANSLATION:

"The righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance" {psalms 112 6}

{The lady mentioned below} donates

?

a floor

of marble stones

in the holy place

of the tombstone of our lord Ezra the sc[ribe]

may he protect us Amen, and {donates} the paintings and moldings of the {women's} outbuilding in [...]

{all of this is hereby donated by} the dear lady Signora {=Mrs} Es[ther]

"Blessed shall she be above women in the tent" {Judges 5 24} the wife of

[...] Saleh Menashe [...]

for the transcendence of her son's soul, the lo[vely] guy

Rahamim, may he rest in paradise, {who} passed away on the day of

[...] Kislev 5669 {= December (or the end of November) 1908} in [...]

lively, may he protect us Amen, may his soul be bound [in the bond of life]

HOOTmag (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Help in locating French book

I am wondering if anyone who frequents this page has access to the following book:

http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/wieger_leon/textes_historiques/textes_historiques.html

You may notice the website offers free pdf files of the first two volumes. However, I need information from volume three, which is still being prepared by the transcriber. The information I am looking for appears on pages 1,880 to 1,890. It should have something to do with the Kaifeng Jews.

If no one has access to the book, I was wondering if someone wouldn't mind helping me contact the transcriber for the info. Fluency in French is obviously a must. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I did find another book about China by the same author in BNF's Gallica system. The BNF has your book in its collection: http://catalogue.bnf.fr/servlet/biblio?idNoeud=1&ID=39451975&SN1=0&SN2=0&host=catalogue but hasn't scanned it. Markussep ^Talk 09:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

The book is referenced in worldcat, so you can have a look where to find it : [5].

Just in case you did not find them already, there are some academic resources in French for "Juifs de Kaifeng" [6]. --Anneyh (talk) 06:01, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Google books was actually the first place I looked. I couldn't find it in my local area, so I put in for an inter-library yesterday for pdf scans of the pages I need. I don't know French, but I doubt it will be that hard for me to figure out what it says. If I get stuck, I can always use an online translator. I've got plenty of books on the Kaifeng Jews. I think most of the French material is pretty old. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 06:21, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Japanese News Source for Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood announcement

Resolved

Not sure if this is the right Ref Desk to ask but here goes...

• Can anyone translate this enough to determine if there is a news announcement of a 64th episode of the anime show Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Fullmetal Alchemist (鋼の錬金術師 FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST, Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Furumetaru Arukemisuto, abbreviated as 鋼の錬金術師FA) which is also known as Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood ?
• This image was obtained from the Anime News Network as one of their sources.
• Also, is there any way to determine the name of the publication in the image?

Thanks, 66.102.205.16 (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

• The 64th episode is only mentioned at the bottom left, where it has the name of the episode followed by a date (July 4th).
• "This image was obtained from the Anime News Network as one of their sources."? I'm not sure what you are asking here, but the Anime News Network is not mentioned anywhere.
• I can see no way of knowing which publication this image came from. Sorry I can't be of any more help here. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

KägeTorä - (影虎): Thank you for the assist. The reference to A.N.N. was simply to advise where I had gotten the image from, just an FYI. A.N.N. is a sort of (minimal rules) wikipedia for anime. Would you do me one more favor and help fill in the following based on the text in that image:

EpisodeNumber = 64

EnglishTitle = ______________________________ ( example: A Fierce Counterattack )

KanjiTitle = ______________________________ ( example: 凄絶なる反撃 )

RomajiTitle = ______________________________ ( example: Seizetsunaru Hangeki )

OriginalAirDate = July 4, 2010

I realize the English Title may be only an approximate translation.

This information will help me in searching Japanese sites for a WP:RS.

Thank you. 66.102.205.16 (talk) 05:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Sure. In the space where the title would be (were it one of the other episodes listed), it only says 最終回 (Saishūkai), which just means 'Last Episode'. I don't know if it has a specific title (unlike the others), and a search on the internet hasn't revealed one. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, OK, cool. Your help has been much appreciated! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.102.205.16 (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Another source

Could I please ask for one last translation: www.hagaren.jp/news/index.html#n144 I tried Google Translate but it leaves it unclear because even though the text is in an area marked news, it seems to be asking a question. Is that a qwirk of Japanese grammar? 66.102.205.16 (talk) 06:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I assume you mean the top posting in that link (the one above the posting about 'Guririnrajo'). In which case, it says:

[Title]: "The Final Episode of Full Metal Alchemist - 64th Episode to be broadcast on July 4th (Sunday)"
"As for Full Metal Alchemist, the story which will soon plunge into its climax, the date of broadcast of the final episode has been decided! The 64th Episode, the final episode, will be broadcast from 5pm on Sunday, July 4th! Don't miss it!!" --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks KägeTorä, yes that was the one. It seems the "qwirk" is with Google Translator because when I looked again this morning I noticed the original Kanji has "!" exclamation marks not question marks. Weird. どうもありがとう！ 66.102.205.16 (talk) 18:27, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

No problem! Glad to have been of service! --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

June 24

"Taal" language?

Writing a footnote to the article on Edmund Ironside, 1st Baron Ironside tonight, trying to untangle the mystery of just how many languages the man spoke, I came across an article by Harold Nicolson which noted that during the Boer War, he "mastered Afrikaans and Taal". According to my Afrikaans-speaking source, "taal" is merely the Afrikaans word for "language"; it's not a language in its own right. I did find one indication that it might sometimes be used to refer to the creole Tsotsitaal, but this seems to be a twentieth-century urban development and not something he'd be likely to have encountered.

We did consider the possibility that it was garbled - "Afrikaans language" is "Afrikaanse taal", which might have been misheard or misread as "Afrikaans and Taal" - but the author was English, writing about a personal acquaintance of his; I can't imagine the story having been passed onto him in Afrikaans!

So... was there likely to have been a seperate dialect known by this name at the time of the war (1900) or the time of writing (1940)? Is our author just confused? Any suggestions appreciated. Shimgray | talk | 01:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

These results mention an acquaintance of Churchill from the same period speaking Taal and Afrikaans (or "the Kaffir language") I think Taal is the early form of Tsotsitaal or Fly-Taal. While Afrikaans was seen as a slow development from Dutch via Cape Dutch and was the prestige language, Taal was a creole with a large dose of Dutch and far more slangy. Your count of languages depends entirely on your assessment of their armed forces. meltBanana 03:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that - it's good to see someone else used them distinctly! Some success in the OED today - "...in English, ‘the taal’, spec. applied to the Cape Dutch, or Dutch patois spoken in South Africa", all citations c. 1900 +- a few years. It seems "taal" was used for Cape Dutch to distinguish it from the other branch of what would become Afrikaans, or possibly just synonymous for both. The term appears in general use in English simultaneously with "Afrikaans" - which was previously just called Dutch, low Dutch, etc -

As to Fly-Taal or Tsotsitaal, I'm not sure they do link up - per this, it looks like a mostly urban dialect among black speakers, whilst the original source has him using Taal to pass himself off as a Boer farmer. Shimgray | talk | 12:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This 1906 book chapter talks about two kinds of "Taal:" the common vernacular spoken by Afrikaners, and an artificial Dutchified Taal taught in schools and used in some written works. Not sure which would be called "Afrikaans" in your source, if this is the two-language situation it refers to. --Cam (talk) 13:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a very brief Taal article. John Buchan refers to it several times in Greenmantle, e.g., "I shall talk Dutch and nothing else. And, my hat! I shall be pretty bitter about the British. There's a powerful lot of good swear-words in the taal." Zoonoses (talk) 12:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Future languages of Wikipedia

As far as I know, new languages, before becoming official versions of Wikipedia, are stored in an "incubator" until they are big enough. Is there somewhere a list of languages that will be admitted in the Wiki family in the near future? --151.51.25.173 (talk) 16:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

m:Requests for new languages is probably what you want. It doesn't seem super-organized for the outsider but there are links to various language committee topics in a box toward the top of the page. Meta:Language proposal policy is the policy page, and has links to the incubator. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

meta:Requests_for_new_languages is the place to discuss things; however, more proposals get shiot down than accepted these days... AnonMoos (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

There are only a finite number of languages in this world, so I'd imagine that the number of languages not included in Wikipedia will become fewer and fewer, and the ones remaining will be less likely to have a willing and able population large enough to support their Wikipedia. Falconus^{p t c} 05:00, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I will propose the number of active Wikipedia's will actually begin to decrease in the next 50 years. --mboverload@ 23:22, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

term for hypocritical situation

What would be the term for a situation in which a restaurant called itself Healthy Eats but served only foods that came with lots of carcinogens produced by the manner in which the "healthy" ingredients were prepared? 71.100.2.16 (talk) 20:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I would call it an irony? "Hypocritical" implies intent, ie: Healthy Eats knows the way it prepares food causes carcinogens but does nothing about it. --Kvasir (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

A misnomer?—msh210℠ 20:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

It could be a lot of things, probably depending on intent, degree, the law, and other factors. It could be false advertising or misrepresentation, for instance. It could be exaggeration or impossible to quantify (as in "world's best pizza"). It might be simple ignorance. It could be ironic. It could be tongue-in-cheek. Exploding Boy (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

In this case I think the situation is one in which the business name is being used indirectly to dispel the fact that fried foods have multiple health issues in order to continue serving fat and carcinogen ladened fried food. 71.100.2.16 (talk) 20:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Fraudulent labeling? (On the other hand, the sentence "He may be skinny, but he is a healthy eater" doesn't necessarily refer to modern notions of health). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

See Greenwash#"Six Sins of Greenwashing".—Wavelength (talk) 23:33, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

...ah, perhaps healthwashing then. 71.100.2.16 (talk) 16:10, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

June 25

Mensch from German or Yiddish?

How can you know whether the word "mensch" had migrated from Yiddish or German? The Wikipedia article linked above claims it was from Yiddish, however, the original word in Yiddish is "Mentsch" a little bit farther apart than the German word "Mensch."--Quest09 (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

People putting together dictionaries take a look at the first recorded usages of words in the English language. For example, the OED gives the first recorded usage of "mensch" in English as a 1930's quote: "Dot mensch certainly knew his bissness..and look at all the Yehudim here too!" From context, we can see that it was Yiddish speakers, rather than people taking it from German, who initially introduced "mensch" into English. (Note that the Yiddish "mentsch" is itself derived from the Middle High German "mensch".) -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 17:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Another clue is that the usual meaning of this word in English—a decent, ethical person—is a meaning specific to Yiddish. In German, the word just means "person". I don't ever hear it used in English in that generic sense. Marco polo (talk) 17:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I would translate "Mensch" with "human". If I have to say "person" in German, then I would just say "Person". Rimush (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You would translate Wie viele Menschen erkranken in Deutschland jährlich an Krebs? as "How many humans get cancer each year in Germany?"? I wouldn't. I'd say "people", which functions as the plural of "person". I suppose the German could have said Wie viele Leute erkranken... but that sounds less formal somehow. +Angr 19:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

There's no "one-word-fits-all-cases" when translating. "Humans" doesn't work in that specific case when translating into English (it works in other languages), but that doesn't mean it's not the right meaning of the word. That being said, I should let everybody know that I'm neither a (pro-)translator nor a linguist. Rimush (talk) 19:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

June 26

classical lanquages

What are the classical lanquages in the world? how many are they? What is the criteria? thank you124.43.25.100 (talk) 03:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Classical language should be helpful. Maybe also sacred language and literary language. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Could I respectfully point out that 'criteria' is plural and 'criterion' is singular. Peace. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 06:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Proverbial translation

I was trying to translate this proverbial statement into Japanese, but it has a more complex make-up than I'm used to working with (I'm barely learning the language), so I was wondering if someone can help. The statement is: "A cloud does not know why it moves in just such a direction and at such a speed, it feels an impulsion . . . this is the place to go now. But the sky knows the reasons and the patterns behind all clouds, and you will know, too, when you lift yourself high enough to see beyond horizons." Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 06:25, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, see register (linguistics)--we need to know what register you're translating it into. Is it for a formal setting? A homework assignment? How will you be evaluated? The reason I ask is that if it's only for a homework assignment...or for an informal setting such as trying to speak in Japanese to your Japanese significant other's non-English speaking relatives...then I suggest breaking up the statements into short, easy to translate clauses.

Moreover, is the English word "that" implicit in the ellipsis above?--达伟 (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Verdun

How is Verdun pronounced in (American) English? Is it Ver-doon or Ver-duhn? Dismas|^(talk) 17:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

-Dun, rhymes with "-sun." --- OtherDave (talk) 17:55, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 01:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Chinese word Gui (歸)

Gui (歸) apparently has two distinct meanings: 1) Return 2) One article says this:

In Chinese, the word gui (return) means more than a reverse movement. It also implies a reconversion of allegiance and renewed pledge of obedience, specifically to those who had previously deviated from the norm, but then came back to comply. For example, the words guihua (return and absorb) and guishun (return and obey) were used to describe the incorporation of ethnic minorities or rebels by the authorities.

So it seems like a euphemism for 'submission'. Does anyone have access to a scholarly Chinese dictionary that explains the second meaning and provides sources? The one dictionary I have just says 'return'. I found this entry about Old Chinese on google books, but the description is very brief and didn't mention anything about the minorities. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:57, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't have time to read thru the 文言文 here, but the Kangxi dictionary has an entry for gui...going from right to left, it's the 7th character entry on the page (it's the second character in the second row going from right to left)...it appears it lists the character in two forms folllowed by a definition but I don't have time to figure it out: http://www.kangxizidian.com/kangxi/0578.gif --达伟 (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like a "distinct" meaning to me, just an extra connotation added to the basic meaning. I'm not sure if it has that connotation when used alone (as opposed to as part of compound words that carry that connotation...and not all of them do, for instance, in addition to your examples, Chinese people who study/work abroad and then come home are sometimes jokingly called 海归, which is homophonous with 海龟 "sea turtle). rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

For the sake of splitting hairs, perhaps, what the Ghostexorcist describes could probably be called different "senses" of the word in lexicography--they needn't be black-or-white absolute dichotomies, but are still potentially different uses of the word. Either way, the question is when is the "return to obedience" or "return to subimssion" connotation present, and when is there merely a concept for physical return (e.g. 海归)? To add to the debate, Ghostexorcist, you may or may not realize that gui also has another conotation, that of "belonging," for instance in the terms 归属/归属感. At the same time--I'm just speculating--it may be the case that the obedience/submission connotation is present NOT because of the gui itself, but only because of the addition of a new element as above (the 化 in 归化 or the 顺 in 归顺).--达伟 (talk) 09:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

The reason I asked is because I am writing a book review for a Chinese history forum newsletter. The book is about the Kaifeng Jews of China. The stone inscription erected by them in 1489 CE states: 進貢西洋布於宋, 帝曰: 歸我中夏，遵守祖風。The author of the book I am reviewing believes the Jews originally settled in Han China and were later driven out by the anti-foreign sentiment in the late Tang. They only returned when the second Song emperor invited foreign scholars to China. However, the vast majority of researchers (past and present) favor a Song Dynasty entry. (Yes, I know about the existence of Jews in Tang China; they are believed to be different from the Kaifeng variety.) Albert Dien of Stanford University said “gui in that context does not mean return, but rather to have come to one's proper place, as subservient to the state. The word was often used in seals given to various minority peoples on the borders meaning they were now loyal." --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

June 27

Phonetic transcription of Norwegian

Can anyone give me an IPA transcription of the Norwegian lyrics to this piece? I tried to write one myself using an online Norwegian dictionary, but I don't actually speak Norwegian and the words are in an archaic Danishized orthography, so it was rather difficult. Thanks. 76.204.127.175 (talk) 01:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

What's wrong with this sentence?

The sentence is: "I don't know Santa Claus doesn't exist". It seems to contain some kind of logical error or possibly even self-contradiction, but I'm not sure how to describe it. 69.109.58.84 (talk) 02:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

It makes sense but it sounds horrible to my ears. I would say something like "I don't know if Santa Claus exists" but then that's not saying exactly the same thing. Dismas|^(talk) 02:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Seems OK to me. Maybe a "that" could go after "know", but it's not essential. That's grammatically. But if you're talking about the truth value of the sentence, I still see no issue. If he did exist, there would be evidence; but the reverse does not apply - there is no evidence for the non-existence of something. Maybe he doesn't exist, but the best we can ever say is that we don't know that for certain, and what you said covers that well. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with it, it's just infelicitous if you drop it out there with no context. Given the right context, it can be perfectly normal. (For instance, "You don't have any proof that Santa Claus exists" "well, yeah, but I don't know he doesn't exist...".) rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:41, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation; English -> Lakota

What would be the translations of the Golden Eagle (a leadership program at the Dane G. Hansen Scout Reservation that is based of the traditions and customs of the Native Americans) names "Storm Caster" (Caster in this case meaning "someone who casts") and "Beautiful Rose" into Lakota? Also, what would be the pronunciations of the translations? Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 04:47, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Big band furniture

Typically the musicians in a "big band" of the Swing era would sit behind a sort of waist-high desk, usually decorated with the bandleader's initials, as seen in this photo of British POWs in a camp in WWII-era Germany. Does that piece of furniture have a colloquial name? "Music desk" doesn't strike me as having entered the common parlance and I don't have any period literature handy. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Isn't just a music stand? Exploding Boy (talk) 05:47, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Not according to the Music stand page which describes the distinction, albeit entirely unsourced. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

These manufacturers of the things simply call them music stands, although an often-used name for them seems to be "band fronts" (as a Google search shows). Deor (talk) 12:21, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

We call em either 'music desks' or stands. I think the term 'desk' is more descriptive of this sort of stand.--RampantHomo (talk) 23:46, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Vietnamese "ph" instead of "f"

In Vietnamese orthography, the letters "ph" are used to represent the voiceless labiodental fricative. I was wondering why whoever decided on that spelling system (Alexander de Rhodes, was it?) chose "ph" instead of just using "f", which isn't used for anything else in Vietnamese and which I'd have thought would be the simpler, more obvious choice. Have there been changes in language which would explain it, or was it just a stylistic decision? -- 203.97.105.173 (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

As a side note, Alexandre de Rhodes made prominent contributions, yet he was working on top of an already substantial amount of scholarship and lexicography of Vietnamese done by the Portuguese missionaries--达伟 (talk) 09:18, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Pronouncing s like sh, e.g. in "last" year - pronounced like: "lasht" year, in some American accents.

Note that I'm not talking about the phenomenon of Yod-coalescence, like in "assume" (which may be pronounced like "eshoom" in Australia and NZ and also in Cockney), but rather about words like "last" year, which have nothing to do with Yod-coalescence, and are nevertheless pronounced - in a few American accents - as if the "s" were "sh". Do you know of some more details about this phenonemon, mainly about its geography in US (or in any other part of the English speaking world), and about the phonological conditions for it to occur? Wikipedia says nothing, as far as I know. HOOTmag (talk) 18:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Living in the US, I haven't really heard this phenomenon, except prior to a word that begins with yod, as in your example: "last year"--the yod from "Year" probably triggers a patalatization of the s in "last."--达伟 (talk) 19:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard it, except from those with ill-fitting dentures, in any of Canada, the U.S., Australia, New Zealand, England or Scotland. Bielle (talk) 19:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I've heard it a lot, mainly from ex-President Bush, and from many other Americans, even when the next word does not begin with a yod. Here is a video, in which you can hear the guy say, at 1:22: "and I've been asked to talk about whether there's a losht (=lost) generation of workers or not, well here's the answer to that: there could be, unlesh (=unless) you prepare otherwise...". The first word ("losht"=lost) is a stronger evidence (than the second one), since the next word begins with no yod. HOOTmag (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it's just my ill-fitting hearing aids.:-) Bielle (talk) 20:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

you're kidding, but I'm serious. Do you, like me, hear him say "losht", "unlesh" ??? HOOTmag (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Previous ref-desk thread that may be of interest. Deor (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, they mentioned also "shtrong", which I forgot. HOOTmag (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I tend to think that this is a feature of some individuals' speech (isn't Sean Connery rather famous for sh-ing his s′s?) rather than a feature of any American dialect or "accent". Deor (talk) 23:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

According to Philadelphia dialect#Consonants (permanent link here), "the sibilant /s/ is palatalized to [ʃ] (as in she) before /tɹ/. Thus, the word streets might be pronounced "shtreets" [ʃtɹits]." See also Phillyspeak and search for "Shtreets".—Wavelength (talk) 00:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

As an American in the Southeast, I find both pronunciations ("last" "lasht") to be perfectly acceptable before a word starting with "y". In fact, I suspect I may do this myself. Falconus^{p t c} 04:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Chinese reading help

In regard to the Chinese name of Diho Square (顶好广场) in the Houston Chinatown - I know the readings of the first, third, and fourth characters are dǐng, guǎng, and chǎng. But what tone of "hao" (second character) is used? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

The tone is third: hǎo. However, because of this, this changes the pronunciation in this combination of the word dǐng to second (i.e., díng) and that of guǎng to second also (guáng). See tone sandhi.--达伟 (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I see - thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 20:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Difference.

What is the actual difference between sodomy and buggery. My BF says there isnt any.--RampantHomo (talk) 23:43, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Buggery refers specifically to anal intercourse (noting that it is slang, and may not always be used in precisely that way). Sodomy is a broader term which refers to any non-vaginal form of intercourse, including oral and manual stimulation. If you've given/gotten a blowjob, you are, technically speaking, a sodomite but not a bugger (buggerer? not up on British English). --Ludwigs2 00:56, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

... Sodomy is even more general, including "inter-species intimacies" (how's that for a euphemism?) often unfairly attributed to farmers in isolated areas. Dbfirs 07:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

June 28

Crossword clue?

"Possess, to Burns", 3 letters. The answer is apparently "HAE". What does this even mean? Dismas|^(talk) 01:12, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

In Scots (and thus in many poems by Robert Burns), hae means "have". As in English, it is used as an auxiliary verb (see Scots Wha Hae, for instance) and as a verb meaning "possess". Deor (talk) 01:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah! I see now, thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 03:00, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

... and, of course, hae just represents the phonetic spelling of the Scottish and northern English pronunciation of the standard English word have. It is not a separate word except to ardent Scots (who, strangely, do not have a separate army or navy). Dbfirs 07:45, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

You sure about that? The Scots Language article states "The UK government now accepts Scots as a regional language and has recognised it as such under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages". 173.66.161.221 (talk) 10:59, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I wrote my response knowing that however I worded it, someone would come along and take me to task either for considering Scots a dialect or for considering it a language. As I tend to think of it as a dialect myself, I thought it polite to acknowledge the alternative view. (And Scotland certainly has had an army and a navy.) Deor (talk) 11:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

AAVE - Southern American English

I saw a documentary about New Orleans recently, and they interviewed a white ship captain. As a white guy who has spoken AAVE himself (because everybody at school spoke it), it seemed to me that this guy was speaking AAVE as well. I understand from the AAVE article that it has a close relationship with Southern American English, so could this be the only explanation? Is the Southern English in Louisiana so close to AAVE? The pronunciation, the grammar, everything seemed distinctly AAVE (if I wouldn't have seen him, I would've guessed that he's African-American). Maybe someone from the South could shed some light on this. Rimush (talk) 10:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

For those who just casually read RD/L and aren't even amateur linguists, here's a link: African American Vernacular English I had no idea what AAVE is. Dismas|^(talk) 10:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

My bad, I figured everyone here is an expert :D Rimush (talk) 10:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Thoribism

What does thoribism mean? Is it a real word? What's its etymology?--151.51.25.173 (talk) 11:09, 28 June 2010 (UTC)