Talk:Dog

Pack structure

I think this sentence needs to be changed, at least to exclude the part about wolf dominance hierarchies:

"Feral dogs show little of the complex social structure or dominance hierarchy present in wolf packs"

Leading wolf researcher David Mech has spent a good deal of time recanting the whole "alpha wolf" meme that he accidentally started, based on observation of artificially-created wolf packs in captive pens.

Here's what he now says: Rather than viewing a wolf pack as a group of animals organized with a “top dog” that fought its way to the top, or a male-female pair of such aggressive wolves, science has come to understand that most wolf packs are merely family groups formed exactly the same way as human families are formed. That is, maturing male and female wolves from different packs disperse, travel around until they find each other and an area vacant of other wolves but with adequate prey, court, mate, and produce their own litter of pups.

More information here: [1]

Thank you for this link. He seems to be saying that the leader or number one wolf/wolves and the hierarchical leader of the wolf pack is usually called the "alpha male" or "alpha female" but that term isn't as good as "father wolf" or "mother wolf", and he gives some reasons and exceptions. He does not seem to be saying that that wolves don't have packs, that these packs don't have complex social structure, or that they don't have a dominance hierarchy. He only worries that the effect of the word "alpha" on the listener or reader will imply that they got there by fighting, but in the wild it's more decided by who is the father or the mother in most cases. So my understanding of this does seem to basically agree with yours.

Personally, I don't see how this calls into question the article's assertion that wolves do form complex packs characterized by a dominance hierarchy. They do have a "top dog", but they usually didn't fight their way to the top, they got to the top the same way that a mother dog does, just by having puppies and then dominating them from the time they are born or very small. So no, they didn't fight their way to the top, but they do have a top. The statement from the article does not say anything about how the domiance hierarchy was formed or maintained, it merely refers to it's existence. So I agree completely with your interpretation about what this reliable source says and I believe David Mech says other than this: Using terms like "social hierarchy," or "alpha, beta, gamma, delta" this does not imply violence. Not to me, at least, but if it does so in the reader's mind, perhaps a citation or two from this reliable source would be an important addition to this article as long as it somehow stays focused on the referent of this article, which is dogs and how they are different from other Gray Wolf subspecies. Chrisrus (talk) 15:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll just mention a couple of other sources, in case they are useful: [2], [3]. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:48, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Dogs and Law

I propose that a new section in this article or a new article be created on laws that relate to dogs. The dog license article only deals with licensing laws in selected western countries. Dog laws also cover negligence, leash requirements, breeding, dog attacks, noise pollution, etc.

One website with extensive information on dog bites and applicable laws (in the USA, and also relevant to Common Law) is [4]. There should of course be a list of dog laws by country.

Also please note that the article on Dog attacks, which has a brief section on legal issues (US only) is not included in the main Dog template. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.47.238.225 (talk) 07:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

What about the tension between custody law and property law when determining the outcomes for a pet dog in a divorce case? The disposition is usually based on property law, but visitation rights can be given. Marj (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I say go for it if you can work it in smoothly and keep it short. If it gets too long, concider creating a new sub-article Laws Applying to Dogs or some such, that you could link the reader to a smooth and appropriate way. Chrisrus (talk) 15:57, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 69.168.144.133, 31 March 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} The scientific name of dog is CANIS CANIS and the scientific name of wolf is CANIS LUPUS. There is not such a thing as CANIS LUPUS FAMILIARIS.

69.168.144.133 (talk) 02:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Reference, please! If you have an authoritative source of the preferred synonym - Canis lupus familiaris synonym: Canis familiaris synonym: Canis domesticus synonym: Canis canis Marj (talk) 02:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The correct binomial, which this Article used to have a while ago, is Canis familiaris. Since wolf hybrids are generally sterile (and it is not hearsay to check with a vet and a Genetics Professor), the domestic dog has in fact speciated in captivity from its immediate ancestor, Canis lupus. Nevertheless, Canis canis is also an invalid name. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 02:00, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Personal communication is non-recoverable from the reader's perspective and as such can't be included in the reference list. They can be cited in text as they are referred to, but we would need names and dates, and the authority of the source. Marj (talk) 05:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Many sources list the domestic dog as Canis familiaris, but others, including the Smithsonian Institution and the American Society of Mammalogists, more precisely list it as a subspecies of Canis lupus - C. l. familiaris. It would be nice if there was uniform agreement amongst taxonomic authorities, but there is not. Marj ([[User talk:Mdk572|talk) 05:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, the same is true of the domestic cat. (I've seen a plethora of primary and secondary articles that say Felis domesticus, and for what it's worth that name does yield the most hits on Academic Search Elite and the like.) That is not relevant here about dogs, but what is relevant to all taxonomy is the concept of speciation. Noting that wolf-hybrids are (like mules in this regard) normally sterile, the precise thing to say would be that what used to be Canis lupus familiaris a short time ago in evolution has since diverged into its own species, thereby becoming Canis familiaris. It is a relatively new species that apparently evolved in captivity, but once a species evolves, it ceases to be part of its ancestral species. That is how evolution continues. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:13, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't argue with you on that, though I have reservations that "normally sterile" is the same as "reproductive isolation" and in any case there is some disagreement among scientists regarding the importance of reproductive isolation in the speciation process - but I do repeat my initial statement. To change it (it is used throughout Wikipedia afaics) we need an authoritative reference that states that Canis familiaris is the preferred binomial. Marj (talk) 05:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The sterility of resulting offspring if interbred negates the possibility of grandchildren (or grandpuppies as the case may be), and in that sense "normally sterile" does constitute "reproductive isolation" despite a 1-generation capacity. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:32, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a taxonomist and don't have a dog in this fight on the issue, but some quick googling turned up [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], and a lot of other sources which use the canis familiaris designation. I observe that WP:DUE requires that WP articles should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

My personal preference is Canis familiaris fwiw but my point remains: We need an authoritative reference that says that one form is preferred before we change all of the instances of the term. A quick Google Scholar search turns up a large number of uses of Canis lupis familiaris by authoritative sources so the Google search puts us no closer to an agreed edit. Marj (talk) 23:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't intend to imply a suggestion that all the instances of the term be changed. My point was that the WP:NPOV policy appears to require that alternative terms be given due weight according to their prominence (and not according to editorial preferences about taxonomic terminology). I suggest that a second paragraph be added to the Taxonomy section explaining existence of the alternative terms and saying that this article, for purposes of consistency uses c.l.f (or c.f., or whatever term it uses). I note that this seems to be covered pretty well by Coppinger, Raymond; Coppinger, Lorna (2002), "What's in the name : Canis familiaris?", Dogs: a new understanding of canine origin, behavior, and evolution, University of Chicago Press, ISBN 9780226115634. I think that would be better done by someone who is more invested in this article than by me. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think WP:NPOV comes into it. The policy at issue here is that requests to edit semi-protected articles must be a clear and specific description of the requested change accompanied by reference(s) to reliable sources. Marj (talk) 04:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't have access to Coppinger & Coppinger today, but Coppinger, Spector and Miller in What is a Wolf? say "the domestic dog is technically Canis lupus familiaris" Do you have a quote and page number explaining the source of alternate terms? If you can edit Taxonomy yourself please do so. If you wish someone else to edit it, then please provide the required information and the source of that information. Marj (talk) 04:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Authoritative reference located and Taxonomy revised. Marj (talk) 07:06, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done

Edit request from Hoser43, 1 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

death

Hoser43 (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I haven't the faintest idea what that is all about.  Chzz  ►  16:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

 Not done

Why "Familiaris"?

Why did he decide to call it "Familiaris"? I assumed at first that he meant "familiar dog" as in "the dog that everyone already knows/thinks about first, but could it have been "family dog", as in the familiar English term "family dog" or "family dog" as in "the whole 'family' of breeds, or some such? Readers of this article want to know, and I would like something to call it in Engish to distinguish it from "Canis lupus Dingo". Chrisrus (talk) 13:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

It's "family dog" or "friendly dog". Tasty monster (=TS ) 15:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for this! I accept this answer. May ask you, Tony a favor?

First, do you think that this information would make a good addition to the article?

Second, do yout think adding the last five words as you have written them, as a parenthetical after where it says "Canis lupus familaris"; do you think that this would be the best way to do it?

Third, how should we cite it? Chrisrus (talk) 17:44, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Adjective familiāris: 1.of or pertaining to servants 2.of or pertaining to a household or family 3.familiar, intimate, friendly 4.of or belonging to one's own self, country, etc. 5.customary, habitual 6.fitting, appropriate. Marj (talk) 01:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there is any record of the particular meaning Linnaeus was intending. Familiaris appears regularly in species names Certhia familiaris Common Treecreeper. Marj (talk) 19:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Darn. I thought we had a definitive answer. So Canis familaris might have meant "servant dog", "household dog", "family dog", "friendly dog", "our own dog", "customary dog", and, well, probably not "fitting or appropriate dog".

I did a search for "familiaris" trying to find some kind of pattern. I did find, as you indicated, somewhat of a low statistical correlation between the "Common ____" and "_____ familaris" on Wikipedia. A search for the word "familiaris" did result in a number of species called Somesuchus familiaris, but a short search for some of the very many articles about species entitled "Common Suchandsuch" and found that by far the majority of the small sample weren't called "Suchandsuchus familiaris". Enough were, though, for me to think that there is a precedent for translating "Canis (l.) familaris" as "Common dog", but nothing you might call definitive proof that this is the best translation for the Latin phrase, as opposed to the more obvious "Familiar dog." "Familiar dog" might cover quite a few of the meanings you provide, either simultaniously or alternatively, so there's that, as well. Oh well, I suppose I should give up - it seemed like a nice idea. Unless....? Chrisrus (talk) 01:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

It is a nice idea. There is a bird related site that explains why birds were given the particular descriptors - but there doesn't seem to be a lot of logic behind it. It's just a matter of finding that translation in print somewhere. It's good that you put it on the record, and it would make a good addition to the article. Marj (talk) 01:57, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! Please let me know if you ever happen to find the type of citation that you describe. Chrisrus (talk) 07:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

"Dog fish" example a bit silly?

First of all, this article is excellent. I just have a tiny quibble with something I maybe notice as a person who spends a lot of time editing disambiguation pages for animal words.

This part here that says "A few animals have "dog" in their common names but are not canids, such as the prairie dog and the dog fish." While the prairie dog is a good example of this and may be necessary to say, the dog fish example seems to be speaking to a person who doesn't speak English, which is the only thing we are supposed to assume is true of the readers.

Anyone who speaks English instinctively knows that an animal called, for example, a duck eagle, is an eagle named after ducks for some reason. The same rules of English tell us that if an eagle duck is not really a duck, some disambiguation is in order, but no one has to be told that it's not really an eagle. Think about milk chocolate and chocolate milk, for example. One is the head of the noun phrase and the other is a modifier. This is why the case of prairie dog is listed on the dog (disambiguation) page, but dog fish and dogwood are not.

Therefore, I would like to edit it so that it reads:

"A few animals, such as the prairie dog, have the word "dog" in their common names but are not canids."

 Done

Nature and Scope of this Article

Recently, this article seemed to be just about one subspecies, Canis lupus familaris. Now, it seems to be moving in the direction of being about both C.l.familaris and Canis lupus dingo, a subspecies union (clade) marked by Mammal Species of the World as "Domestic Dog". I do not object to this, but at some point the taxobox and lead sentence should be changed to reflect this fact. Chrisrus (talk) 13:59, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the recent additions that are specifically about the dingo are interesting, but a sidetrack, and would be better in the dingo article. Marj (talk) 19:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand your point of view. There are certain concerns. If this article were to be about both Canis lupus familiaris and Canis lupus dingo, how many changes would we have to make to it? I mean, is there really very much that it says now that doesn't also apply to C.l.dingo? Actually, I should point out that, according to the article dingo, the animal which the taxon C.l.dingo refers to includes more than just the traditional Australian animal from which it gets it's name. It now includes a native dog of New Guinea as well as one found in Southeast Asia. And several more dog breeds now catagorized as familiaris, such as the Carolina Dog (I saw this on TV, but the article seems to confim that it's a suspect), the Telomian, and the canaan dog, just might be catagorized as Canis lupus dingo as well. Anyway, that means trouble for the Dingo article, if it's going to be about just the Australian Dingo or going to expand to include everything that C.l.dingo should turn out to include, but maybe no trouble for this one.

The way I read the comments at the Mammal Species of the World's "Canis Lupus" page, however, it seems like they just might make a change about this very thing in the next edition. They call the separation of familiaris and C.l.digo"provisional" and seem to give us "permission" to think of both subspecies together as one subspecies called "domestic dog", even though they don't officially give it a taxon. (If they do unite them, I'm betting it'll be called "Canis lupus domesticus", as that used to be a name for familiaris and is how you say "domestic dog" in Latin.) They seem to be saying that the only reason they haven't done so has something to do with the "synonyms" lining up right. By this I think they mean they worried if they included all the historical names for dingo and all the historical names for the familiar dog in one big subspecies, people might think that the dingo ones used to refer to all dogs instead of just the dingo. Right after I finish this paragraph, I'll include three different links to MSW3, so you can read it yourself to see if you think I seem to be misunderstanding anything. The first one is the page for Canis lupus and the comments are kind of long, but what I'm referring to here is just the first part. The other two will be the pages for the two subspecies, which don't have any comments except for the words "domestic dog" in brackets.

1. http://www.bucknell.edu/MSW3/browse.asp?id=14000738
2. http://www.bucknell.edu/MSW3/browse.asp?id=14000752
3. http://www.bucknell.edu/MSW3/browse.asp?id=14000751

Anyway, that's all just "on background", if you know what I mean. What would have to be done with this article if we included C.l.dingo in it's scope? The taxobox would have to be changed a little bit, the lead would need to reflect it, and the taxonomy section, maybe would have to be tweeked a bit to make all of this clear in an appropriate way. Actually, maybe not, as it does do a pretty good job of this right now I think, kudos to whoever wrote that part. Then, maybe we wouldn't need the recent changes, and the article dingo could say "The dingo is a domestic dog" and link to this article, and it wouldn't be in effect saying "Canis lupus dingo is a Canis lupus familiaris", which doesn't make sence. In fact, anyone who does an internal link anywhere on Wikipedia when writing about dogs would be reffing to all the "domestic dog"s, not just familiaris, so then if some primitive breed does get switched from one subspecies to the other, it wouldn't leave the referent dog.

Anyway, is that all that we would have to change? Are there any statements or such in this article that wouldn't also apply to the dingo? If we did these things, could we then undo the recent chages? Those sentences seem just kind of plopped in right in the middle of an article otherwise notable for its smooth flow. Chrisrus (talk) 01:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

p.s. Have you ever wished they hadn't united the dog and the wolf as one species? They don't do that with the cat and the wildcat, you know.Chrisrus (talk) 01:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that this article is long enough just dealing with C. l. f. and that much of the history/roles with humans etc is different for the two su-species. I think anyone searching for domestic dogs on Wikipedia would be looking for pet dogs. A link to the other subspecies would be sufficient for those searching more broadly. Marj (talk) 04:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

The article cited on the Dingo page says only that "Austronesian people transported the dingo from Asia to Australia and other islands in between 1,000 and 5,000 years ago. Pure dingoes occur only as remnant populations in central and northern Australia and in Thailand, and they are threatened by cross-breeding with domestic dogs." There is no agreement that the NGSD and the dingo belong in the same taxon, in that article or in the Koler-Matznick et al piece. Marj (talk) 04:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

The recent additions could be cut and pasted to a discussion topic - until we find a better place in the narrative for them. Marj (talk) 04:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You make good points. First of all, this article is already quite long. On the other hand, the way I envision it, it might not have to be made all that much longer to cover both adequately. They are basically the same animal, and there isn't a whole lot beyond a tweek to the taxobox and the lead wouldn't do the trick. As I see it, anyway, I could be wrong I'd have to take a close look at the article again with this in mind.

You are right to include that quotation from the dingo page. The most intersting thing about it, as I see it, is that is an example of the term "domestic dog" being used to refer specifically to Canis lupus familiaris only and specifically not C.l.dingo. This proves that the term domestic dog is sometimes used to mean specifically familiaris and specifically not to C.l.dingo.

I would also like to point out that the opposite is true in the lead. The lead says "the dingo (Canis lupus dingo) is a domestic dog", and links domestic dog to this article. So the lead of the article Dingo says Canis lupus dingo = Canis lupus familiaris, which, of course, can't be, you can't say valid taxon A = valid taxon B. It only says this because the term "domestic dog" there links to this article here, though. If it didn't, if it linked, say, to a disambiguation page, or if it were written the dingo is a domestic dog without putting anthing in brackets it wouldn't be saying that. It also wouldn't be saying that if we changed the taxobox and lead of this article to read "C.l.familaris + C.l.dingo." Then, it would be saying "C.l.dingo is a domestic dog (union of C.l.familiaris + dingo)", which is what must have been intended and would be another, different use of the term "domestic dog" from the context where they talked about dingoes mating with domestic dogs.

You are correct that the article does say at that point that C.l.dingo only means Australian Dingo and the Thai "Dingo" (which, by the way, there is no article about that I can find. What is the Thai Dingo?) and excludes the New Guinea Singing Dog. That line contradicts the map in the aricle and Mammal Species of the World, which list the old taxon for the New Guinea Singing Dog, hallstromi, along with the other old synonyms for "Dingo." This means that they are grouping the New Guinea Singing Dog as C.l.dingo and there is no sign that they have any interest in revisiting the matter. Now, Koler-Matznick disagree with the decision and they and some experts who agree with that position may be right about that or they may be wrong; we at Wikipedia are not in a position to decide. The Mammalogy Society or whatever, it's their job and we just report. Otherwise, think of the thousands of papers suggesting that one taxon or another should be changed, how could Wikipedia deal? Until it is changed by MSW3 or some such, or unless they comment that a taxon is in dispute or simply provisional or some such, we at Wikipedia have to go with something for taxoboxes, at least. MSW3 has heard their case and those of others and ruled against them and taken away the species and subspecies status for the New Guinea Singing Dog and put it in with C.l.dingo. There is a terrible bitter mess at the article New Guinea Singing Dog about this, I know, and it has spilled over into the dingo article at that point. Some of the editors there seem to include Matznick herself and many battling experts and breeders and passionate "singer lovers" and such and they put up such a terrible fight that if you ever would like to get involved with that situation be my guest, but I have, and I'm saying that, if you choose to even change a comma there, just don't say I didn't warn you; it's an emotional shouting match. Outside in the rest of the world, everyone else have long since moved on and accepted the fact that the it's been grouped with C.l.dingo.

Anyway, be that as it may, it doesn't matter for this topic. Even if we leave out the NGSD, there's still the fact that there are these two dogs, the Thai Dingo and the Australian Dingo, which are sometimes called "dogs" or "domestic dogs" but are not covered by this article because they are C.l.dingo and not C.l.familiaris. Or they are covered, actually, because almost all of this article would be true of them as much as it is true of any dog, so it's basically covered. All that we'd need to do would be to adjust the taxobox and lead and maybe another thing or two here and there, not much, and add a line or two in the history and evolution. I repeat this so we get back to the point and not have to talk about the tedious NGSD stuff here any more.

I like very much your idea of removing the clunky dropped-in stuff that entered the article a few days ago and to paste it here so that we can see if we can find a way to work it in more smoothly, if at all. I agree with you if you believe like you seem to me to believe that it has had a detrimental effect on the reader in comparison to the nice smooth way the article had been last week and the most important thing is the article. Chrisrus (talk) 20:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure whether this is reported in a single, citable spot, but from memory the dominant belief is that the Australian dingo came from Asia, and there are remnant populations still in Thailand. So there isn't a Thai Dingo, but an Australian Dingo in Thailand. We also have the problem of the confusion between domestic dog i.e. pet dog and Domestic Dog the classification for the species. The NGSD article looks like something to stay away from - the lack of argreement over origins and classifications seems to be something to be fought over rather than reported on. Marj (talk) 22:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I could ask how it could be an Australian Dingo if it's never been to Australia, but I think I know what you mean; the southeast Asian dingo is basically the same as the Australian one; southeast Asian dingos existed before the Australian Dingo; they came from southeast Asian ones. But my question is, if I go to Thailand and find the dingoes there that are referenced on the map here, what are those normally called? Certainly the Thai people had a name for them before they became known to be c.l.dingos. But more importantly, English-speaking people also must have had a name for these dogs of Thailand besides "dingo". Or maybe not! Why don't I go up to the search window there, put in "Dingo", and then go over on the side, send it to the Thai langauge verson of the Dingo article, try using "Google translate" on it and report back here to tell you all what I have learn. I encourage you to do the same. Chrisrus (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Look at this: [15]. Google translate had a terrible time with this one. It says

Casino Gold (English: Dingo) Wolf species one. Found only at Australia only A a science thatCanis lupus dingoGold Casino is the only wolf, only it looks like Dog House most Therefore assumed that the ancestors of Gold Casino. Descendants of the dog house East Asia (including Thailand a) by one in Australia about 3000-4000 years ago when Gold Casino classified as animals belong to only one in the Family Dog. (Canidae) found in Australia.

I wonder about the Australian Shepherd too :-) I think "Australian" means something similar to "Oriental" or "From somewhere other than here" Marj (talk) 19:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm in awe of your resourcefulness. But I think that is perfectly clear. There is a dog in Thailand known as the "Gold Casino" that looks like an earlier "dog house" . Descendants of this "dog house" also ended up in Australia. Love it! Marj (talk) 19:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Info on "Dingo"

These additions are removed to the Discussion page, pending a decision on where to best place them in the article.

• In Mammal Species of the World edition 3 (MSW3), "domestic dog" means a clade between taxa uniting the Canis lupus familaris and Canis lupus dingo.

• It should further be noted, that while the current edition of Mammal Species of the World uses the names Canis lupus familiaris and Canis lupus dingo, it still classifies the dingo as a domestic dog.

Further discussion welcomed. Marj (talk) 23:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Removing these edits pending discussion, rather than deleting them, is a courtesy to the editor, and a separate issue from the relationships between the Australian dingo, the wild dogs in Thailand, New Guinea and America that are being grouped with the Australian dingo, and the pet dog. Marj (talk) 02:16, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Info on Number of Subspecies called "Domestic Dogs"

I don't think that we necessarily have to work this information into the artcle per se, as it's already in there, although the situation might be elucidated there a bit more clearly, I suppose, we can take a look at that, but let's not get distracted for the moment. What it means for the article is that the taxobox shouldn't just read "Canis lupus familiaris" but rather "Canis lupus familiaris + Canis lupus dingo" (and maybe the paranthetical "(see text)"). It also means that the lead should be re-worded to reflect this fact, but not in too much detail; that is mostly clarified in detail in the body already. Then anyone could use the term and internal links "domestic dog" and dog to mean either only familiaris (as when discussing "dingos mating with dogs", and also sometimes to mean "C.l.dingo + familiaris" as in "The Dingo is a dog", or when talking about another dog which is not familiaris, but nevertheless still a dog, as is the case with the New Guinea Singing Dog and other dogs which are not not familiaris, but are still basically dogs in the broader sense of the word "dog". This lines up perfectly not only with the use of the word "dog" in common English in different contexts; it lines up not only with the facts as summarized by the National Society of the Taxonomy of Mammals or whoever it is that is responcible for the publication of Mammal Species of the World; but also it lines up perfectly with the simple truth of the animals independent of the language we use; there are at least two basic genetic strains which one could see as either one subspecies or two. Chrisrus (talk) 19:19, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I can't see what problem would be solved by having two distinct subspecies covered in the article, with both included in the taxobox. I can see a number of problems this would create. Let's keep this article about the "pet dog" with a mention of "domestic dogs" that have reverted to the wild and a link to their pages. I wouldn't want to see the arguments about the dingo, NGSD etc transferred to this page which has been very harmoniously edited to date. Marj (talk) 22:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Three Dog Night issue

I'd like to point out that, contrary to popular belief, the term, "Three Dog Night" did not originate with the Australian Aborigines, as stated in the article. It, in fact, was coined by the Inuit, who needed three dogs to stay warm in their harsh environment. Dingos, the Aborigine dog cited, are too wild and aggressive to be used as living blankets, and are known for attacking owners, people, and babies. Huskies, however, are not (though they have been known to attack running babies).

To put it shortly, the term, "Three Dog Night" did NOT originate with the Aborigines as stated in the article, but with the Inuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshboy1991 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Please give a reference, otherwise these are just your opinions. Marj (talk) 03:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, there's actually not that much reference to it online, but in a book my mother has on the Inuit, it mentions that it is not Aboriginal, but Alaskan in fact. I have to find the book, but for now, here's a link: http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/28/messages/633.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshboy1991 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

It's quite likely that a version of the phrase was used independently by a number of early peoples. However the band "Three Dog Night" were trying to think of a name that would show that the band had three lead singers, when singer Danny Hutton's girlfriend came up with the suggestion based on a magazine article about the Australian Aboriginals, who on cold nights, would sleep beside their dogs for warmth. The band gets a lot more lines in publications than the meaning of old terms describing the weather, so this origin for the term is the most widely cited. The article doesn't say that the Aboriginal Australians used the term before Aboriginal Canadians, but they did use it and rural Australians still do use it. Marj (talk) 02:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

BTW This Dingo sleeps on my bed (with the cattle dog) and I have yet to wake up missing any bits of my anatomy. Marj (talk) 04:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, looks like you're right after all. Well, until I find more accurate evidence to support my view, I guess we'll say that it is still unclear who created the term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshboy1991 (talk • contribs) 01:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I've heard that this was from the native people of the very south tip of South America. Anyway I think it is way too trivial to mention in this article. It belongs in the article on the band. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Dog breeds

The article says: "As the modern understanding of genetics developed, humans began to intentionally breed dogs for a wide range of specific traits." They were doing this in ancient Egypt. It does not depend on modern understanding of genetics, athough this helped the process. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this is totally inaccurate. I think you should try and change howlers like this whenever possible instead of just flagging them up on a talk page ... Bossk-Office (talk) 13:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The article is locked, so we cannot just edit it. The talk page, however, does provide a nice forum for working out just what it should say. I think it would be simplest to describe it all in the same place (perhaps a simple sentence as an in-line list), but as a series of developments: 1st: unintentional human selection. Humans just get along with, raise, and promote the propagation of individuals with traits they like. This could have gone on for over 10,000 years with substantial results. 2nd: intentional breeding, without knowledge of evolution or genetics other than just figuring out that traits are passed on. 3rd: Artificial selection that uses understanding of genetics (modern breeders).

Here is a stab: Humans cared for dogs that had desirable traits, and eventually began to intentionally breed dogs for a wide range of specific traits68.106.25.212 (talk) 06:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC).

Health risks to humans

This is way too USA centric, and recentist. Rabies is not even mentioned. It still kills thousands of people each year in India and Africa. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:22, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

History and evolution – Non-Wolf Theories?

Should the page perhaps include a word or two on the dissenting idea that the dog is not a domesticated wolf after all, but was ever its own species? Obviously people love to challenge accepted ideas, but there appears to be little real evidence for wolf origins – genetically and morphologically dogs are closer to other canids, etc. See linked article:

http://newguinea-singing-dog-conservation.org/Tidbits/OriginOfTheDog.pdf

Perhaps this matter comes up all the time on this talk page. If so, I apologize. Bossk-Office (talk) 13:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)