Talk:Historicity of Jesus: Difference between revisions
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:Does anyone want to update §Christ myth theory with the point Carrier is making when he says, as noted above, "[M]y point is not that the Christians got the idea of a crucified god from early Inanna cult". I do not want to do this particular initial editing task. [[Special:Contributions/74.136.159.171|74.136.159.171]] ([[User talk:74.136.159.171|talk]]) 18:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC) |
:Does anyone want to update §Christ myth theory with the point Carrier is making when he says, as noted above, "[M]y point is not that the Christians got the idea of a crucified god from early Inanna cult". I do not want to do this particular initial editing task. [[Special:Contributions/74.136.159.171|74.136.159.171]] ([[User talk:74.136.159.171|talk]]) 18:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::I don't understand why this article should say anything about Carrier's opinion about the relationship of Inanna cult to Christianity. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 00:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC) |
::I don't understand why this article should say anything about Carrier's opinion about the relationship of Inanna cult to Christianity. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 00:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::For the same reason you should say James Patrick Holding's opinion about the relationship of Inanna cult to Christianity. [[Special:Contributions/74.136.159.171|74.136.159.171]] ([[User talk:74.136.159.171|talk]]) 19:42, 24 September 2015 (UTC) |
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A: This article discusses the very basic issue of "existence of Jesus as a historical figure", not what he did and taught. On the other hand, the Historical Jesus article discusses the various aspects of what can be gathered about the activities of Jesus. In basic terms this article answers the question: "Did Jesus walk the streets of Jerusalem?" without addressing any details about what he said, did or taught as he walked the streets. The other article addresses broader questions such as "Was Jesus seen as an apocalyptic prophet by the people of his time?" which are beyond the scope of this article.
A: The two separate aspects of historicity vs historical portraits require different lines of reasoning. Historicity is largely a yes/no question: "Did he exist and walk?" while historical portraits are far more involved and are based on "historically probable events" with different scholars having different levels of confidence in various aspects of what can be known about Jesus. Moreover WP:Length has specific length limits (as in WP:SIZERULE) and there is enough distinct material in each article that combining them would create too large an article that would be too hard to read and follow. And in any case the articles have different academic focuses and while there is widespread agreement on existence (discussed in this article), that does not extend to the portraits constructed in the other article and these issues are logically distinct.
A: Yes:
A: The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed on the talk page, the list in the box below is copied from the talk page discussion:
The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that: Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Finkelstein and Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. The analysis of the list thus shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.
A: The article Christ myth theory discusses that issue in much more detail because it is more relevant to the denial existence issues. As stated there, and briefly in this article:
Specific issues regarding this topic are discussed at more length in that article.
A: This has been discussed on the talk page of this article, as well as a number of other talk article pages. There are 2 aspects to this:
Moreover, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Jewish scholars as sources on the history of Judaism, Buddhist scholars as sources on Buddhism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.
A: In fact the formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states what the "academic consensus" may be. Moreover, in this case, after much discussion, no reliable source has yet been presented that presents a differing statement of the academic consensus, and opposing scholars such as Robert Price acknowledge that their views are not the mainstream.
A: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:
As the article states Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc.
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Talk:Historicity of Jesus |
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Christian bias?
This article wants to present Christ mythicism as a crackpot (rather than just a fringe, but nonetheless legitimate) theory, despite the fact that there are several Biblical scholars that hold degrees who could to various extents being called Christ mythicists, and the fact that there is no "smoking gun" evidence of a historical Jesus - just Occam's Razor-based arguments like the criterion of embarassment.
The article also quotes many seminaries and blatantly biased sources in favor of the historicity of Jesus's life and miracles.
Thevideodrome (talk) 00:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Can you name some such scholars? I've been looking, and I find some respectable advocates of the Jesus-myth theory in various forms in mostly pre-1980 literature. I see a lot of (ironically) Christian Biblical literalists asserting the existence of such scholars, largely in order to construct a strawman textual critic to knock down. But otherwise, the only figures I see are not serious people.
- Richard Carrier is not a serious scholar. His poorly thought-through invocation of Bayes' theorem as an approach to history would prove that - (Hint: if you have to invent your own historical method to demonstrate your claims, Bayes' theorem would assert you are almost certainly wrong) - even if his lack of credentials and peer reviewed publications on the subject didn't.
- Richard M. Price is a serious scholar - of HP Lovecraft, at least. I'm not honestly sure of his qualifications for Biblical textual studies. On Biblical issues, to claim he holds a "form of the Jesus-myth theory" does injustice mostly to the people who hold the theory for real, since what he claims is that the existence of a historical Jesus is irrelevant if you do not assert the historical existence of a supernatural Jesus. His claim is that if we built a statue of a man in a WWII uniform and put a plaque on it commemorating a dead WWII soldier named "Bob", we could assert very safely that there was a "Bob" who died in WWII, but would it be accurate to say the statue honours him?
- Earl Doherty has been so thoroughly trashed for his misunderstanding of his source material that he really does qualify as a crackpot.
Any I missed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.84.215.34 (talk) 09:19, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Logan (1842) is a reliable source
Given Wikipedia: Identifying reliable sources § Biased or opinionated sources;
Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.
The proposed citation, labeled as [-Logan cite-] in the following article extract, is a valid citation:
The Christ myth theory is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and the accounts in the gospels. [-Logan cite-]
- [-Logan cite-] Mitchell, Logan (1842). The Christian mythology unveiled, lectures. Cousins. p. 151.
Jesus Christ in the New Testament, has no reference whatever to any event that ever did in reality take place upon this globe; or to any personages that ever in truth existed: and that the whole is an astronomical allegory, or parable, having invariably a primary and sacred allusion to the sun, and his passage through the signs of the zodiac; or a verbal representation of the phenomena of the solar year and seasons. (Image of Title page & p. 151 at Google Books)
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74.136.159.171 (talk) 22:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- I noticed this reversion as well. The source appears to be a lecture transcript that is published in Princeton University's library, though I'm not entirely sure of the nature of the text. The addition to the article is sourced as per WP policy. Therefore, the burden of proof lays on Jeppiz to explain why it's not a reliable source, instead of just asserting it in a edit comment. I'm not sure how lectures are treated, or if this is even a lecture, but I feel it is necessary that opponents explain and quote the parts of WP:RS that regard this type of source as unreliable. I will say, it's not equivalent in reliability to peer reviewed sources, but neither is the Basic Books source that's currently in the article, next to where this source was included. They appear to be of equal reliability, unless a WP policy can be shown to say otherwise.Scoobydunk (talk) 23:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Jeppiz that it is a fringe or tiny minority viewpoint at best and no reliable source at worst, but it can be nevertheless accepted per WP:SELFPUB. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:43, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- The idea is: it is not a reliable source for the existence of Jesus, but it is a reliable source for what mythicists believe. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- Is it, though Tgeorgescu? Who was Logan Mitchell? Why is this WP:DUE here? Please see below Jeppiz (talk) 18:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- The mainstream view is: Jesus, the founder of Christianity, was a real person whose life story got hugely embellished. The difference is that mainstream scholars do not equate "hugely embellished" with nonexistence. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:03, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Your assertion is incorrect. First, Jesus is not regarded as the "founder of christianity". Christianity didn't exist until much later after his believed death. Also, the consensus amongst scholars is that a person named Jesus existed, but there is no consensus to the events he is accredited with in the Bible. The source in question isn't speaking to the "real" or historical Jesus, he's speaking to the "Christ in the New Testament". The source is saying that the character in the New Testament can not be tied to any historical person or any historical event. Now, his minority opinion might be accurately limited to his comments regarding the astronomical allegory, but this is not what your comment addressed.Scoobydunk (talk) 02:26, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
note: second printing —Mitchell, Logan (1881). "Lecture 5". Religion in the Heavens; or, Mythology Unveiled. Freethought Publishing Company. pp. 125–126. Jesus Christ in the New Testament, has no reference whatever to any event that ever did in reality take place upon this globe; or to any personages that ever in truth existed: and that the whole is an astronomical allegory, or parable, having invariably a primary and sacred allusion to the sun, and his passage through the signs of the zodiac: or a verbal representation of the phenomena of the solar year and seasons. (Image of Title page & p. 125 & p. 126 at Google Books)
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(help) 74.136.159.171 (talk) 01:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
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About the edits by the IP SPA
An IP whose single purpose on Wikipedia is to put forward the Christ myth fringe theory has been very active on this page. About this "Logan Mitchell" whom the IP inserts all over the board, who has this person? When did Logan Mitchell live? What was his education? And most of all, how is a fringe theory put forward 160 years ago an unknown person with no demonstrated expertise in the area WP:DUE? Jeppiz (talk) 18:08, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Like the Gospels, it is likely an Anonymous work. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
note: Wheeler, Joseph Mazzini (1889). "Mitchell (Logan)". A Biographical Dictionary of Freethinkers of All Ages and Nations. Progressive Publishing Company. p. 229. Mitchell (Logan), author of Lectures published as The Christian Mythology Unveiled. This work was also issued under the title Superstition Besieged. It is said that Mitchell committed suicide in Nov. 1841. He left by his will a sum of £500 to any bookseller who had the courage to publish his book. It was first published by B. Cousens, and was republished in '81. (Image of p. 229 at Google Books)
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(help) 74.136.159.171 (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
|quote=
- I would very strongly suggest the IP editor read such content related pages as WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE, and conduct related pages like WP:DE and WP:TE. There is a significant difference between something being possibly a reliable source in general, a reliable source for content in a particular article, and representing a viewpoint of sufficient significance that it meets WP:WEIGHT requirements for any particular article. From what I can see to date, the primary concern regarding his editing relates to the last of those points. John Carter (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
Not having had any relevant reply, I repeat my question: Who was Mitchell, what education did he have? It seems an IP is currently pasting in 160 year old material from an obscure and unknown person just to make a WP:POINT. I second the opinion of John Carter above. Jeppiz (talk) 19:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- The previously presented information is the only extant information I am aware of concerning Mitchell. Thus what education he had is currently unknown. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- I don't pretend to evaluate here whether it is WP:UNDUE, but as most mythicist literature could be considered WP:SPS, WP:SELFPUB might apply. Including or excluding the source should be subject to consensus. We already know that mythicism is WP:FRINGE, so we cannot simply reject a fringe source from an article about its fringe view. At least, if it is to be removed, it has to be done on other grounds than being fringe. One reason could be because it is dated, another reason could be because it cannot be shown to be notable, another reason could be is because most mythicists nowadays ignore the book (this would have to be proven, though). Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- I would assume the articles in the "Encyclopedia of Unbelief" and "New Encyclopedia of Unbelief" relating to the existence of Jesus would probably be the best indicators of the current positions of the mythicists. I've actually in the past looked at the article in the first named, and don't remember seeing this particular book mentioned, although I could be wrong. I would think the second, "New" one would be the best indicator of the current position of the mythicists, although I don't have really easy access to it. Maybe it could be gotten at WP:RX, though. John Carter (talk) 20:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- I don't pretend to evaluate here whether it is WP:UNDUE, but as most mythicist literature could be considered WP:SPS, WP:SELFPUB might apply. Including or excluding the source should be subject to consensus. We already know that mythicism is WP:FRINGE, so we cannot simply reject a fringe source from an article about its fringe view. At least, if it is to be removed, it has to be done on other grounds than being fringe. One reason could be because it is dated, another reason could be because it cannot be shown to be notable, another reason could be is because most mythicists nowadays ignore the book (this would have to be proven, though). Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
alternative source: Dupuis (1872). THE ORIGIN OF ALL RELIGIOUS WORSHIP. pp. 286–287. [T]he incarnation of Christ is that of the Sun, that his death and resurrection has likewise the Sun for object, and finally that the Christians are indeed nothing else but worshippers of the Sun, like the Peruvians, whom they caused to be murdered, ~I now come to the great question to know: whether Christ has ever existed, Yes or No?" If it is intended by this question to ask, whether Christ, the object of the worship of the Christians, is a real being or an ideal one; he is evidently a real being, because we have shown him to be the Sun. There cannot be any doubt about, that anything is more real than the luminary, which "lighteth every man that cometh into the World." It has existed, is still existing and shall exist yet for a long while to come. If it is asked: whether there ever existed a man, charlatan or philosopher, who called himself Christ, and who had established under that name the ancient Mysteries of Mithras, of Adonis, &c., it is of very little importance to our work, whether he may have existed or not. Nevertheless we believe, that he did not, and we think, that in the same manner, as the worshippers of Hercules believed, that a Hercules, author of the twelve labors, had actually existed, and that they were mistaken, because the hero of that poem was the Sun, so also the worshippers of the Sun-Christ are mistaken, by giving a human existence to the personified Sun in their legend; because ultimately, what guarantee have we of the existence of such a man? The general belief of the Christians since the origin of that sect, or at least since the time that these sectarians wrote. But evidently those admit only a Christ. who had been born in the womb of a Virgin, who had died, descended into Hell and resuscitated; the one whom they call the Lamb, which has redeemed the sins of the World, and who is the hero of the legend. We have however proved, that this same one is the Sun, and not at all a man, let him be philosopher or charlatan; and yet such is their ignorance, that they would no more agree, that it is a philosopher, whom they worship as God, than they would consent to recognize the Sun in their Christ. (Image of Title page & p. 286 & p. 287 at Google Books)
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(help) 74.136.159.171 (talk) 22:24, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
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- 74.136.159.171, you have not yet addressed why we should include any of these obscure writings from 160 years ago. They exist, and so what? We don't even know who wrote this book and they don't appear to add anything to the subject other than saying that some random guy living 160 years ago thought something that virtually no scholar believe in today. What you're doing here is akin to somebody digging up a book by some unknown priests from before Darwin and insisting they be added to evolution. Once again, what does these writings add to the article? Jeppiz (talk) 22:58, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Do you have the same Objection to Dupuis ? The origin of all religions, or the universal religion, (1795). Reissued in 1822 and 1835-1836. Mitchell appears to be repeating the Astral claims of Dupuis. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Once again, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the pages I already linked to above. There seems to be a rather serious disconnect between what you want to add to the article and the existing content policies and guidelines of the project. On that basis, I suggest that you read those pages I linked to and maybe develop a better grasp of how we structure the content here. John Carter (talk) 23:24, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Per Due and undue weight: If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; extant—Tom Harpur, Pier Tulip, Edward van der Kaaij, D. M. Murdock (a.k.a. Acharya S). 74.136.159.171 (talk) 23:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Do you have the same Objection to Dupuis ? The origin of all religions, or the universal religion, (1795). Reissued in 1822 and 1835-1836. Mitchell appears to be repeating the Astral claims of Dupuis. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that is not what the policy is about and none of them are significant in any way. It's possible to find "famous" people who deny evolution or the holocaust, and they will yield hits on Internet as their supporters write about them. For an adherent to be prominent, some kind of actual qualification is required. Just having an opinion and writing self-published books does not make someone prominent in a field. Jeppiz (talk) 11:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- There is no majority viewpoint for CMT, as per Due and undue weight. —If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; 74.136.159.171 (talk) 15:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that is not what the policy is about and none of them are significant in any way. It's possible to find "famous" people who deny evolution or the holocaust, and they will yield hits on Internet as their supporters write about them. For an adherent to be prominent, some kind of actual qualification is required. Just having an opinion and writing self-published books does not make someone prominent in a field. Jeppiz (talk) 11:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
note: Acharya S; Murdock, D. M. (1999). "The Sun of God". The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold. Adventures Unlimited Press. pp. 110–111. ISBN 978-0-932813-74-9. The Sun of God Within the Sun Book or Holy Bible was incorporated by such priestcraft the most consolidated version of the celestial mythos ever assembled, the story of the "son of God." First, we have seen that "God" is the sun. Second, in Job 38 the stars are called "sons of God"; hence, one star would be a "son of God," as well as the "son of the Sun." Thus, the son of God is the sun of God. The solar mythos, in fact, explains why the narratives of the sons of God previously examined are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, etc.: To wit, these stories were in actuality based on the movements of the sun through the heavens. In other words, Jesus Christ and the others upon whom he is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the gospel fable is merely a repeat of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.
note: Harpur, Tom (1 October 2005). The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light. Dundurn. p. 57. ISBN 978-0-88762-829-0. The birthday of Jesus Christ was first celebrated by the earliest Church in the spring of the year. But in 345, Pope Julius decreed that the birthday (nobody knew any precise date for it, suggesting again that the entire thing was pure myth) should thenceforth be held on December 25, three days after the "death" of the winter solstice and the same day on which the births of Mithras, Dionysus, the Sol Invictus (unconquerable sun), and several other gods were traditionally celebrated. [...] But the birth of the Christian Saviour is not the only event tied to so-called Pagan astronomical/astrological roots; the greatest Church festival of all, Easter Day, the moment of Christly Resurrection, is also similarly linked. Easter occurs on different dates each year because, like the Jewish Passover, it is based upon the vernal equinox, that dramatic moment when the hours of daylight and the hours of darkness at last draw parallel and then the light finally and triumphantly wins out. Thus Easter is always fixed as the first Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox. It's a cosmic, solar, and lunar event as deeply rooted in religious traditions originating from sun-god worship as one could conceivably imagine. Traditional Christianity, I have come to realize, has forfeited a great deal of its vital historical connection with the natural world and the cosmos as a whole by a deliberate downplaying of the significance of this solarlunar connection.
74.136.159.171 (talk) 05:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- How much of this, particularly the mythological aspects, are already covered in the more appropriate article for that content, specifically, Jesus Christ in comparative mythology? There is, and has been for some time, question about the various stories that have accrued over the years around Jesus, but the historicity of the stories about Jesus is a rather different subject than the historicity of Jesus as an individual. John Carter (talk) 14:14, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, do you understand that no additional content is being added to to the main article, merely an already extant definition is getting a second source citation from a viewpoint that is held by a significant minority —
ref>Mitchell, Logan (1842). The Christian mythology unveiled, lectures. Cousins. p. 151</ref
74.136.159.171 (talk) 15:05, 16 September 2015 (UTC)- I regret to say I don't see a logic to that. If something is already reliably sourced, there is no particular reason to add a second source, unless the topic is etremely controversial, and, honestly, I don't think this is. John Carter (talk) 15:09, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Do you agree that the view point of a significant minority is represented by Mitchell ? 74.136.159.171 (talk) 15:17, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Definitely not. The field has developed a lot in 160 years, so Mitchell is not representative. Besides, there is no "significant minority" in this area. The academic field almost universally agrees in rejecting CMT and I see no reason even to include it in this article, except perhaps in a sentence, as it's entirely WP:UNDUE. We don't give much space to creations in articles on evolution either, or to those denying the moonlandings happened, or to "birthers" in articles about Obama. Jeppiz (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- There is no majority viewpoint for CMT, as per Due and undue weight. —If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts— Rather, there are only viewpoints held by a significant minorities in CMT. Why does your claim that the unicorn is pink have more weight then the claim that the unicorn is orange. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 19:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Definitely not. The field has developed a lot in 160 years, so Mitchell is not representative. Besides, there is no "significant minority" in this area. The academic field almost universally agrees in rejecting CMT and I see no reason even to include it in this article, except perhaps in a sentence, as it's entirely WP:UNDUE. We don't give much space to creations in articles on evolution either, or to those denying the moonlandings happened, or to "birthers" in articles about Obama. Jeppiz (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Do you agree that the view point of a significant minority is represented by Mitchell ? 74.136.159.171 (talk) 15:17, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- I regret to say I don't see a logic to that. If something is already reliably sourced, there is no particular reason to add a second source, unless the topic is etremely controversial, and, honestly, I don't think this is. John Carter (talk) 15:09, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, do you understand that no additional content is being added to to the main article, merely an already extant definition is getting a second source citation from a viewpoint that is held by a significant minority —
- Are you proposing the removal of an entire section from this article ? —Historicity of Jesus § Christ myth theory— 74.136.159.171 (talk) 19:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it should be removed. There is no subsection for Creationism in evolution, no subsection of Obama being a Muslim or born in Kenya etc. Nor should there be. There are people holding those opinions, some of them even "prominent" in other ways, but none of those view (and many others) have any more academic support than CMT. Of course we should keep the CMT article, but bringing up CMT in other articles seems undue.Jeppiz (talk) 20:04, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Are you proposing the removal of an entire section from this article ? —Historicity of Jesus § Christ myth theory— 74.136.159.171 (talk) 19:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Jeppiz. Remove the section and be done with it. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 01:05, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- And I support removal of the section as well. The various forms the myth theories themselves have very little to do with the matter of historicity, and on that basis inclusion of much information on them in this article is probably excessive. Certainly, it can and should be discussed in this article, but not necessarily as a separate lengthy section, and just pare it down to what it had been before the recent discussion. John Carter (talk) 01:20, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Jeppiz. Remove the section and be done with it. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 01:05, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- The CMT is discussed in multiple peer reviewed scholarly sources. This merits its inclusion in the article. A simple Google scholar search yields multiple academic journals that discuss the CMT. It doesn't have to be a majority viewpoint to have a section in the article and the fact that numerous scholars examine the CMT when discussing the historicity of Jesus gives it sufficient weight to merit it's own section, so long as it accurately reflects scholarly viewpoints about it. We're talking about a section that's like 5 sentences long compared to other sections that are paragraphs in length. I find it deeply concerning that editors are claiming it's "lengthy" and advocating it's removal when it's directly part of the discussion regarding the historicity of Jesus and has had academic support. Whether the viewpoint is widely held is irrelevant to the fact that it is widely discussed in academia.Scoobydunk (talk) 01:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Of course, unfortunately, damn near everything about Jesus and his time is discussed in multiple peer reviewed scholarly sources, and there are, unfortunately, a rather large number of them for this topic. Particularly considering that there is a major article already dealing with the topic, which is already also a separate section in the Jesus article, I think that there is some reason to believe that it may well qualify as a separate subtopic, independent of the Historicity, and, honestly, I tend to think that is the way it tends to be presented. I haven't checked the article history, but I think restoring the material to whatever had been more or less the last consensus level of stable content on the topic would be not unreasonable in this instance. John Carter (talk) 01:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- Please take note that the +cite for Carrier (2014), has the weight of an elephant, compared to the weight of 2 mice for the other two basic book citations —in regards to Due and undue weight. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 23:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- Of course, unfortunately, damn near everything about Jesus and his time is discussed in multiple peer reviewed scholarly sources, and there are, unfortunately, a rather large number of them for this topic. Particularly considering that there is a major article already dealing with the topic, which is already also a separate section in the Jesus article, I think that there is some reason to believe that it may well qualify as a separate subtopic, independent of the Historicity, and, honestly, I tend to think that is the way it tends to be presented. I haven't checked the article history, but I think restoring the material to whatever had been more or less the last consensus level of stable content on the topic would be not unreasonable in this instance. John Carter (talk) 01:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- The CMT is discussed in multiple peer reviewed scholarly sources. This merits its inclusion in the article. A simple Google scholar search yields multiple academic journals that discuss the CMT. It doesn't have to be a majority viewpoint to have a section in the article and the fact that numerous scholars examine the CMT when discussing the historicity of Jesus gives it sufficient weight to merit it's own section, so long as it accurately reflects scholarly viewpoints about it. We're talking about a section that's like 5 sentences long compared to other sections that are paragraphs in length. I find it deeply concerning that editors are claiming it's "lengthy" and advocating it's removal when it's directly part of the discussion regarding the historicity of Jesus and has had academic support. Whether the viewpoint is widely held is irrelevant to the fact that it is widely discussed in academia.Scoobydunk (talk) 01:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Per @Chaoyangopterus's source citation from youtube —Dr Richard Carrier - Christianity without Jesus and the Ascension of Isaiah as a pre-Christ description of Jesus Christ. I assume that it may be cited as an authoratative source with the caveat that a link to the youtube video may not be included. It should be noted that there is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, as long as the links abide by WP guidelines.
note: Richard Carrier Ph.D. "2015 Speakers". 2015 Pennsylvania State Atheist/Humanist Conference. PA State Atheist/Humanist Conference. Retrieved 20 September 2015. 2015 PA State Atheist/Humanist Conference : September 11-13, 2015 : Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, USA
74.136.159.171 (talk) 23:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- @Ian.thomson Question, is the above noted Template:cite web of Carrier speaking at the PA State Atheist/Humanist Conference sufficient to use as a source for quoting the talk at said event featured on a youtube video ? 74.136.159.171 (talk) 01:58, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Viewpoints within CMT
- Dissenting from or skeptical of the orthodox historicity position, but not a historicity denier.
- Historicity Skeptic, promotes historicity refutation.
- Supernatural Skeptic, promotes supernatural refutation.
- The Jesus character of the Gospels was based on the historicity of a surrogate(s).
- Jesus lived in a remote past prior to Year One.
- Historicity denier
- Jesus did not exist and no further theory elaborated beyond historicity refutation.
- Literary character rather than a historical character.
- Astrotheology-cosmological-pagan cult origin of Christ.
- Originated as a supernatural heavenly Christ.
- Gnostic.
Carrier's viewpoint of the supernatural heavenly Christ origin should be the Prima facie CMT noted in §Christ myth theory. However it also should be clearly stated, that other viewpoints historically were noted to varying degrees within academia and some even become part of the mainstream scholarship, like David Strauss. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 01:04, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
- Question? How should Carrier's WP weight be described in §Christ myth theory. "Per Wikipedia policy, Carrier's CMT viewpoint is authoritative within CMT" or "Carrier's CMT viewpoint is notable within CMT" or "Carrier is the leading academic within CMT", etc... 74.136.159.171 (talk) 16:35, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think it's important to mention his weight here, but it is important to mention his point of view. The article for CMT is better suited to discuss the weight of proponents to the theory. Here, the CMT section is a minority viewpoint and doesn't necessitate the same level of detail as other sections. However, despite the CMT being a minority viewpoint, there criticisms that exist in virtually every facet of the historicity of Jesus that Carrier can be cited in.Scoobydunk (talk) 18:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Does anybody have the citation source given by Richard Carrier (2009), Not the Impossible Faith, pp. 18-19 given for James Patrick Holding, The Impossible Faith.
note: Casey, Maurice (16 January 2014). Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?. Bloomsbury Publishing. pp. 166–167. ISBN 978-0-567-01505-1. On Richard Carrier (2009) "Innana death-and-resurrection narrative", Not the Impossible Faith, pp. 18-19: "The Sumerian story of Inanna is older than Carrier claims. In it, when Inanna had descended to the underworld and was stripped of all her clothing, [then] "Inanna was turned into a corpse, A piece of rotting meat, And was hung from a hook on the wall." (Wolkstein and Krammer, Inanna p. 60) It should be obvious that this has nothing to do with the Roman penalty of crucifixion. Moreover, after a few pages, Carrier goes back on himself, though not without repeating his major mistake. He [Carrier] comments: "[James Patrick] Holding has tried to protest that Inanna wasn't really crucified. But being humiliated by being striped naked, killed and nailed up in shame amounts to the same thing to any reasonable observer." In the context of discussing the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, it is not the same thing at all. Jesus suffered the Roman penalty of crucifixion, and Inanna, a godess worshipped in Sumer two millennia previously, did not. Thus Jesus was nailed to a cross so that he would die, whereas Inanna was "hung from a hook on the wall", as large joints of meat were and still are. On the previous page, Carrier has a caveat of which he should have taken much more notice: "[M]y point is not that the Christians got the idea of a crucified god from early Inanna cult [...] I always caution strongly against over zealous attempts to link Christianity with prior religions." It is regrettable that he did not take this advice to heart himself."
74.136.159.171 (talk) 17:56, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- Does anyone want to update §Christ myth theory with the point Carrier is making when he says, as noted above, "[M]y point is not that the Christians got the idea of a crucified god from early Inanna cult". I do not want to do this particular initial editing task. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 18:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- I don't understand why this article should say anything about Carrier's opinion about the relationship of Inanna cult to Christianity. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
- For the same reason you should say James Patrick Holding's opinion about the relationship of Inanna cult to Christianity. 74.136.159.171 (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
- I don't understand why this article should say anything about Carrier's opinion about the relationship of Inanna cult to Christianity. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
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