User talk:SageRad

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Hello, SageRad, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

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gut microbiome and glyphosate

i think i just reverted you for about the fourth time on this. Please cite high-quality reliable sources. We typically use review articles, major textbooks and position statements of national or international organizations. A list of resources to help edit such articles can be found here. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a note. Jytdog (talk) 14:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Not cool with me. Your edits to remove this point strike me as a propagandist agenda. Other people's citation included Huff Post. How is Grist different? You've also removed other posts on the same topic of glyphosate's probable effects on the gut microbiome, and the fact that animals do contain the EPSP synthase molecule, when i did cite more "reliable" sources, i do believe. Why do you do this? What is your agenda? It is very clear that glyphosate can act upon the very microbes in our guts, and that it is present in our guts. This is basic science. I can link to peer-reviewed articles from the 1980s that shows this effect. Actual studies on effects of glyphosate on the gut microbiome have not been done, but the hypothesis is very likely according to the basic science, and the lacuna in the scientific record the notable thing. The Grist article makes this point, and describes reasons why the hypothesis is serious. Please allow it to be referenced. SageRad (talk) 14:26, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry you are unhappy but I am just telling you how Wikipedia works. You are pretty new here. You cannot add stuff to articles because you think X is true (that is original research which is not allowed here). Everything must be verifiable. (Those two links point to Wikipedia policies). What does "verifiable" mean" It means that there is some "reliable source" out there that says it - that this is really a mainstream notion in the relevant field. For health related matters, reliable sources are defined in WP:MEDRS which was linked-to in my note to you above. Grist is not a reliable source per MEDRS. The whole point of all that - no original research, verifiability, and reliable sourcing - is to make Wikipedia really useful and reliable. These policies and guidelines were developed by the Wikipedia community over the years, to guide itself. Think about what a garbage dump this place would be, if anybody could add any old thing they wanted. And think about the very ugly arguments that would break out. Right? Instead of a Mad Max, wild west kind of place, Wikipedia has a sort of "body of law" that governs what we do and how we treat each other. The spirit of that "body of law" (we actually call it policies and guidelines not "law) - is really beautiful. It takes some time to learn. Jytdog (talk) 14:51, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, i can accept that and acknowledge your points. So, if i cite peer-reviewed research paper sources that show that glyphosate does act upon the very same microbes that are in the human gut microbiome, that would be a valid addition, right? I also wonder why the HuffPo sources are allowed if my Grist reference was not allowed. Is HuffPo more valid or is it because the article in HuffPo references more valid sources than the one in Grist? Thanks. SageRad (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

thanks. i do hope you do read MEDRS. you will see that popular media sources like grist and huffpo are not OK for health claims - you need reviews in the biomedical literature or statements by major medical or scientific bodies. we have high standards for sourcing for health claims because they are so important. Jytdog (talk) 16:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok. Then i will reference peer-reviewed articles to note the likely connection of glyphosate to disruption of the human gut microbiome. SageRad (talk) 16:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

It is not just "peer reviewed" articles. please do read the definitions section of MEDRS. PRIMARY sources are original research papers; SECONDARY sources are review articles. There is a difference, and an important one! let me help you. so, to find anything in the biomedical literature, the best place to look is pubmed.gov, which is a huge index of the literature. So if you go there and search, (see here) you find there are 2 papers on "glyphosate gut bacteria". But what we want are reviews (secondary sources). there is a "filter" function on the left side there, and if you select "review" from article types, you get one result. PMID 24678255. That paper is, in my view, not reliable. The journal is very very low quality, and it is by Stephanie Seneff, a computer scientist at MIT who has gone off the rails on glyphosate. Please see the two discussions of her work linked at the very bottom of the pubmed abstract at PMID 24678255, in the comments section. (the "science based medicine" link there is especially useful) The upshot of all this, is that there are no MEDRS sources to make the kind of claim that you want to make. In other words, the claim is not supported by science, at this time. It may be later, but is not, at this time. So we cannot have content in Wikipedia about this now. Jytdog (talk) 16:18, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

by the way, this is a conversation we should be having at the Talk page of the glyphosate article. Would it be OK with you, if I copy this conversation there? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:19, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

ok, so the content you added at Monsanto was not about health, but rather about biology so MEDRS does not apply there. But in general, we look for secondary sources across the board... it is the secondary literature (literature reviews) that helps us in many many ways to do our work here. We can talk about that, if you want. And really, content about glyphosate belongs at the glyphosate article. that herbicide is off patent and has been for 15 years now, and is sold by many companies. Jytdog (talk) 16:27, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with that, as well, and this makes sense to me. I could also fruitfully spend my time reviewing claims to safety that may be made by reference to review articles, such as those that review feeding studies of glyphosate, to make sure that it is noted that they do not test for health or effects on the gut microbiome in the animals studied. SageRad (talk) 16:32, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

i want to thank you for being patient as we work through this. at the end of the day, everybody wants our articles to be as close to the truth as we limited humans, working within our limited institutions can make them. with science-based content things tend to be more sane because the literature is so deep and scientific publishing is an institution itself. things get really crazy in articles about things like... say, video games, where the sources are blogs and crap like that. thanks again for hanging in there. please know that the articles about monsanto, glyphosate, GMOs, and all that, have been heavily worked over. there is always room to improve them but it is unlikely you are going to find anything that hasn't been worked over in one way or another. the gut microbiome thing is an interesting angle as focus on that is pretty recent, and i appreciate you bringing it up. i am looking forward to seeing how the science unfolds on that. thanks again! Jytdog (talk) 16:57, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

JYTDOG, i am very displeased with the fact that you are undoing every one of my edits, and i don't think it's justified. Sometimes, it is on a sentence that does not reference any citation, and i know the basic science and then edit it, to reflect the basic accepted knowledge, such as the fact that glyphosate does uptake through roots as well as foliage. Why did you reverse these edits? Tell me simply, with no fancy language, please. And why did you delete my section on correlation to changes in rumen of dairy cows with citation to a peer-reviewed article? Why? I need simple direct explanation. Since when is a peer-reviewed article not an acceptable source? Explain simply please. This was NOT a human medical question. This was on dairy cows. SageRad (talk) 17:01, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

please don't take it personally. please. as i wrote above, WP:OR and WP:VERIFY are really fundamental policies here, and those two, and our third (and final) key content policy, WP:NPOV, all call for editors to use secondary sources, not primary sources. The 2 content guidelines, WP:RS and WP:MEDRS, also call us to use secondary sources. And on contoversial articles, everybody should use the best sources, not just what is at hand.

about you being expert.... you ~could~ be anybody, including WP:Randy in Boise (a mythological idiot child who acts like they know everything) or John Franz. You are anonymous. As am I. Part of what is beautiful about WP, is the radical equality that exists here among editors, andthe same policies and guidelines that apply to all of us. btw, You may want to have a read of WP:EXPERT, which is some guidance for experts who come edit Wikipedia in the field of their expertise. again, please don't take anything personally. the glyphosate article is controversial, and on articles like this everybody needs to go slow and surely. thanks. Jytdog (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm really not finding that the reality of the guidelines jives with what you're saying and doing. The page on "what constitutes a reliable source" includes journal articles, and does not specify that they have to be

"secondary sources". I cited a paper on dairy cows and that got removed. That was a report on research that was in a peer-reviewed journal. Is that not an acceptable source?

(exhale) are you really asking me? i am asking because it is not clear to me that you are reading what i am writing and i have a shitload of work to do today in the real world. i am happy to explain but not if you are asking rhetorically.... Jytdog (talk) 17:19, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, i am asking you, because you are the one removing my edits, and i think that i am doing it alright. I have been reading the links you provided, and i think you're acting strangely based on what i am reading. What i see about primary versus secondary sources are not -- as you say -- that primary sources are not allowed. It's that secondary sources are preferable, and it's not ok for the Wikipedia author to interpret a primary source to their own ends. But it *is* ok to use primary sources, and to describe what they find. You've told me to opposite of that. From the link that you provided: "While specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred." And then, there is the issue of basic facts in sentences that are not referenced at all but describe basic background knowledge, such as about glyphosate. If a sentence that is not even referenced to a source is incomplete or incorrect, aren't i allowed to edit it, as someone who has been researching the basic science around glyphosate for a while? I think that is the beauty and power of Wikipedia, and you've prevented me from doing so. That is why i have these concerns. I am sorry to use your time, and i am also busy, but you're the one who reverted my edits, into which i put some time to begin with, you know. SageRad (talk) 17:29, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

yes i am the one removing your edits (although Kingofaces is too now) and it is also true that you are completely new to wikipedia, are working on a controversial article, and are editing aggressively. right? so really, please slow down. as i wrote on the talk page, there were two kinds of problems with your edits. some of it was WP:OR, and some of it was badly source. ok, please see this thing on my user page. Also, please see WP:Controversial articles. The experience of editing this article, is not like editing something obscure, like the article on Chorismate mutase which is the next one in the chain after EPSP. Jytdog (talk) 17:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I am not completely new to Wikipedia, as i have been using it as a resource for years, heavily, and i have edited anonymously now and then to correct grammar or details about which i know solidly, and have never had an issue like this before. Sure, i guess glyphosate is "controversial" because there is a very heavy vested interest in the industry to maintain a certain illusion about it, to not provide any clues that it may be less safe than they claim, and that may introduce a tension in the results of the page. I suppose in that sense, but the things i've been correcting on the page have been factual points in the basic science about the chemical. I know from using Wikipedia for years that the sources i'm using are reasonable and generally accepted on Wikipedia. That is why i am bothered by your aggressive reversion of my edits. I would not say i am "aggressively editing". I would say that i made contributions and it was strikingly bad feeling how they were reverted and the reasons given for those reversions did not make sense. Primary sources are *not* prohibited by Wikipedia policy. SageRad (talk) 07:25, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

yes you are clearly are not completely new, that is clear. I cannot speak to other edits you have made in WP nor whether they "stuck" - your edits on glyphosate have been unsourced or badly sourced. And the stuff about glyphosate being taken up through roots (in addition to leaves) -- there is almost no root uptake, based on sources we already use in the article. i don't know why you added that.

about "controversial" - i've worked a lot on articles related to GMOs in the past few years. Most strongly POV edits (unsourced or unreliably sourced with clear POV content) come from editors who are clearly anti-GMO and are adding negative content; i have seen very few (like maybe 10) edits by editors who make bad edits with a favorable POV. It is hard work to keep the articles NPOV and well-sourced; i get flamed all the time. Note - I am not saying that your edits were POV, only that they were unsourced or badly sourced. And yes it is true that primary sources are not prohibited (few things are here), but the policies and guidelines are consistent that secondary sources should be used, and primary sources used only with great care. If the stuff you want to add is really solid, it will be discussed in reviews - there is rarely a good reason to use a primary source. Jytdog (talk) 13:00, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, my edits are meant to be factual. The inclusion or exclusion of facts can be value-laden of course. The frame of an explanation can be value-laden. The claim that animals do not contain the shikimic acid pathway and therefore glyphosate has no effect on animals, though, is not a real fact. It's not true. It's a weasely lie which is in favor of the industry that wishes it to remain the de facto assumption about glyphosate. EPSPS being present in microbes in the human gut means that the human organism has the shikimic acid pathway, in an organismic sense. To be human is to have a gut microbiome. To call it otherwise is, to me, a distortion of the truth that does not serve human knowledge and transparency. As to the "primary vs secondary" distinction, i'm still working on understanding precisely what this means. I get a sense of what it means, and from what i gather, it would tend to make Wikipedia reflect a sense of "scientific consensus" but this can be manufactured by attentive effort by an entity that has an agenda, as has been the case sometimes in the field of climate change study. There may be no review-level paper that reports something important that is reported in a primary research paper. Or, the review-level paper that does mention it may be disallowed by things like your assertion that Seneff papers are not worthy of being cited as sources. I do not like Seneff papers, and i haven't used them. However, who gets to make that determination? Who gets to decide whether a fact is to be reported fro,m a primary source or omitted, or whether a particular source like a Seneff paper is to be excluded from the realm of possibility? [I am going to copy this text to the "Basic Science about Glyphosate" section in the talk page for the entry itself, as i think this ought to be more public of a discussion. If you would reply there, it would make this more public and open, i think.] SageRad (talk) 13:18, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

wow man you are on a high horse. i am actually glad that you are bringing up the gut microbiome stuff and i agree that there is something potentially interesting there. we (humanity) are just starting to learn about the importance of the gut microbiome and while we have learned some stuff, there is a lot that we don't know yet and there is a lot of wild speculation about it in the popular media and by companies that are already looking to make money off it by selling probiotics and the like. with regard to this particular issue within that field - the extent to which herbicide or pesticide residues on food may be effecting it - that too is very much emerging, and there is also lots of wild speculation about that. we go slow in WP. We are not "cutting edge" here. Please go slow. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:44, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I was including basic known facts about glyphosate in the story about glyphosate. SageRad (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring at glyphosate

It appears you're pretty new here, so I've leaving this template below to guide you on how we handle content disputes here at Wikipedia and what to generally avoid. Just focus on talking things through on the article talk page or in the section above and you'll hopefully get up to speed without any problems.

Your recent editing history at Glyphosate shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:22, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I see that it's gone back and forth once now, and that is where i'll leave it, as i have put comments onto the "talk" page at the glyphosate entry. Is that acceptable? I have questions about how these things work, and i have some issues with the reversions that have been done. I'm discussing this with the person who reverted the edits. SageRad (talk) 17:30, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 13:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sage. You've chosen a difficult place to start editing. Even those with a strong grasp of wikipedia policies can have trouble on articles like Glyphosate, and Jytdog's recent report to the edit warring board suggests the degree to which some people take these articles seriously. I see you've now replied on that board. I advise caution here as taking disputes personally can lead to insults/leveling accusations at specific editors - a quick way to get blocked. It might be in your best interest to edit on other articles for a few days to see how things work in other less-heated parts of the encyclopedia, and to get a deeper understanding of how WP works (and sometimes doesn't).Dialectric (talk) 13:57, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you on that, but this happens to be an area that i have been learning about intensively, lately, and therefore have some things to offer the general population in terms of knowledge about glyphosate -- and i do NOT mean "original research" but the offering of relevant but little-known facts about the chemical. I take your point, but i also see that the reason why this article is flawed at the moment is precisely because it's a "controversial" article which comes from the fact that a huge vested interest exists in management of knowledge about this topic, and this is what Wikipedia in spirit is supposed to help humans become liberated from. I have indeed now and then contributed to other articles of which i had solid knowledge, and corrected a few minor mistakes here and there on obscure topics relating to microbes or other basic science that i work with. But when it comes to this one, it seems there are serious challenges that seems rather extreme to me. SageRad (talk) 14:34, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

what "vested interest" do you see at play here, SageRad? Dialectric how does my editing and discussion at Glyphosate demonstrate how Wikipedia "doesn't work"? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a topic around which there are serious vested interests. That is clear. That is why it's controversial, isn't it? There are potential conflicts of interest in this field of study as there is money on the line and there are other important things on the line, like ecology and human health. All of these things drive people passionately toward different goals, sometimes. SageRad (talk) 14:51, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

that is not an answer, really. glyphosate is generic - if the "vested interest" is Monsanto they would appear to have very little interest in glyphosate per se (they may do, to the extent that glyphosate-resistant crops are still an important part of their business even as that trait has also gone off patent). As i wrote above, most of the conflict and personal attacks in these articles comes from anti-GMO activists. (by the way i appreciate you removing your reference to "fascist" and removing your other personal attack at the glyphosate talk page without being asked to; i do understand that learning how wikipedia works can be frustrating, especially if you come here with burning issues) Jytdog (talk) 14:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I trust my gut when it tells me something is wrong. Glyphosate knowledge is an area of great vested interest. I know this from experience. SageRad (talk) 15:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

by the way, you should read the humorous essay,. Wikipedia:The Truth. a lot of new editors come here talking about "their gut" and "the truth". it is not a way of talking here, that is helpful to anyone. mostly it is not helpful to you. Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I think this whole episode has been a huge sham and i don't need you to lecture to me from a high and mighty place that there is no such thing as truth, or that it is something worthy of pursuit and gradual approximation toward. I disagree with the outcome of this tribunal, and did not get any sort of a fair hearing. This is not what i expected from Wikipedia. There was not an intentional "edit war" on my part and i do not think there was a 3-time reversal on any particular point that could be fairly called such. Just so you know. I see thinkgs very differently from you and just because you know the ways & means around here doesn't make you right in a factual or ethical sense of the word. SageRad (talk) 16:34, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

The 3RR complaint has been closed per WP:AN3#User:SageRad and User:Jytdog reported by User:Jytdog (Result: Protected) with 3 days of article protection. If the war continues after that, blocks are likely. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 16:26, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

There is no "war" -- I edited and i learned something about procedures, and i discussed in the talk sections after that became apparent to be the preferred method, and i stated that would hold off from editing the disputed sections when the allegation of an "edit war" came up. I do not like the atmosphere of this place. It's hostile. SageRad (talk) 16:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I have been talking nicely with you and taking an inordinate amount of my time and effort to explain things to you. you have no grounds to claim hostiluty. Jytdog (talk) 16:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not like the atmosphere of this place. I feel it's like walking on eggshells and that people hold power over others in ways that are not right, and use bureaucratic means and fancy language to shut down real pursuit of accuracy. I didn't ask you to donate your time to block my edits and then launch an investigation into a supposed "edit war". SageRad (talk) 16:57, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

yes, SageRad, hell is other people. And in Wikipedia, it is other people, all the time. As i wrote to you way, way above, there is a lot to learn about this place. if you take the time to learn how it works, it can really be beautiful. you really try to communicate with other people, and base discussions on policy, guidelines, and sources. it can be exhilarating. i will tell you that things get the most difficult when people arrive here with a really strong POV and their goal is to content reflecting that POV into the article, first and foremost. not starting with the mission of Wikipedia, not starting with sources, but starting with their own ideas about what they want. that is pretty much you in this case. i have been trying to ask you to go slow and learn how this place works, and start with sources. I hope you will start doing that. Jytdog (talk) 17:24, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, i can chuckle with you on that thought. Still, i really was only attempting to edit the article to reflect some basic facts about glyphosate, how it works, and what it affects. If it were something less "controversial" then i think it would have all been fine. If i were correcting some aspect of an article about Geobacter spp. and electrogenic metabolism, because it's an area of my expertise, i doubt there would have been opposition to using a primary research paper to note a fact. I am committed to accuracy, and i know i make mistakes as do all people, and love the concept of mutual co-editing and checks and balances. I understand that glyphosate is a primary interest of an industry that does pay a lot of attention to what people say about the science around it. I've noted this already in my discussions with people in various forums. It can be rough going. Anyway, here's to three days of peace and quiet, Jytdog. Cheers. SageRad (talk) 17:33, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

you keep skipping right over my telling you that the most hellacious editing in these topics has come from anti-GMO activists. they come here with that as their primary interest. that is true. it is bizarre to me that you are acknowledging this. anyway - another thing about how Wikipedia works. The point of page protection, is that editors are forced to discuss content on the Talk page. That is why i listed the article at 3RR - to get it locked down and drive discussion on the Talk page. If there are further changes you want to make, would you please use this time to suggest them - and their sourcing - on the talk page, so that we (you, me, dialectric, and anybody else who cares) can talk through them, before they go into the article? That is not normal, but that is what happens in situations like this. Would you please consider that? Again, that is what this time of protection is for -- it is why Wikipedia has it. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I acknowledge you saying that about anti-GMO activists. I have seen blatant disregard for facts from people on both "sides". I would prefer to avoid sides altogether and look at the science to discern what is real from what is fiction. I've seen anti-GMO fanatics calling people names and citing studies that are blatantly irrelevant to the question at hand -- for example, using studies that test full formulation Roundup to try to assert that glyphosate alone has a certain effect on cells. I have also seen pro-GMO activists call people names, and cite studies that are blatantly irrelevant to the question at hand -- for example, referring to a chimerical wall of animal feeding studies to assert the safety of glyphosate, when on further examination, most of the studies on Roundup Ready feed do *not* include glyphosate in the feed, and even among those that do, none of them do any assessment of gut health other than a visual glance at the intestines after dissection (along with basic clinical assays). So, i guess i've seen it from both "sides". On the other hand, i have had amazing conversations with people on both "sides" who were good participants in dialogue. I have learned a great deal from certain people who were clearly pro-GMO in bias, but who took the time to look at evidence carefully, and to speak carefully and respectfully. I also recognize in myself an occasional tendency to get my hackles up, and to prejudge some people as being more oppositional than they are, from dealing with seriously low attacks by other people -- a problem of deaggregation of individual, by another name, the formation of prejudice.

I also acknowledge with respect your invitation to use this time to discuss possible changes to the page, and i think that i will, starting tomorrow morning. I'm a little too burnt out today to continue right now, though. Thanks, Jytdog. Maybe we can get along and make this a more accurate and complete page. SageRad (talk) 19:10, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

lord knows we need more science-based editors, solidly grounded in policy and guidelines, working on these articles. i look forward to talking with you tomorrow. thanks! Jytdog (talk) 19:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, now that the page protection is in place, it won't be lifted until the 3 days are up, and arguing over the protection will not be productive. I appreciate that you may have specialized knowledge of glyphosate, but I imagine you could find other articles to add to if you do some searching. If you are interested in this I can point you to some wikipedia resources for newer editors. Part of the problem here is - being highly focused on one article or narrow set of articles sometimes raises a red flag for long time editors. It can be seen as pushing a specific point of view, and whether or not the view is supported by good sources, a better approach if you have the time is to learn about wikipedia by working on a range of things without getting to invested in any one debate.

Jytdog, in answer to the above, 'how does my editing and discussion at Glyphosate demonstrate how Wikipedia "doesn't work"?', what I said was that editing around the encyclopedia, rather than just on Glytophosphate, would give Sagerad an understanding of how WP works and sometimes doesn't. I was not pointing to Glytophosphate as an example. I think you will agree that there are times wikipedia doesn't work or doesn't work smoothly - hoaxes, COI and copyvio articles that stay up for years, discussions that devolve into personal attacks, etc. I think a new editor can learn both from seeing the implementation of policies and the limitations of policy.Dialectric (talk) 17:08, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Dialectric, i can appreciate all that you've said there. I wanted to simply voice my disagreement with the decision, although i accept it, of course, and i was already not editing anymore until further discussion anyway. This is an interesting mechanism. I can see that some articles will be highly contested as there will be interested parties with different perspectives and different goals in editing an article. SageRad (talk) 17:16, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Your Glyphosate technical Question

Do you mean notified of page changes on your watchlist or by email? Each article should have a watch/unwatch tab at the top, and if this says 'unwatch' you are already watching the page. There are also a number of relevant settings in the preferences menu on the top right of the wikipedia page for logged in users. Preferences -> watchlist tab and Preferences -> Notifications should cover what you are looking for.Dialectric (talk) 15:55, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Dialectric, thank you. I did check and had the Talk and the main article marked for "watch" and i was referring to receiving the notifications on the Wikipedia page itself on the top bar near my username. Somehow it hasn't been showing up like it did before. Your message on my talk page did show up just now on the top bar, however, and i also did receive and email.

Also, am i doing this right in terms of replying to people? Should i be indenting by one more than what i'm replying to, and then signing the last paragraph? Like this? Thanks for your help. SageRad (talk) 16:38, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I see - you only get notifications like that three ways. 1 is if someone writes on your talk page (this page). 2 is if somebody "thanks" you for an edit. The third is if someone "pings" you like this SageRad anywhere in Wikipedia - that will also give you a notification. (Quick note on that - the "ping" only works if there is a fresh signature with it (the four tildas). if you misformatted the ping and notice that only after you save your edit, they will not be pinged if you fix it and resave; if you fix it, you also have to sign again. So the times you received notifications were times that you were pinged -not when someone edited the article or the talk page. Jytdog (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

if you just type someone's name like this - SageRad - they are not notified, btw. Jytdog (talk) 16:46, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thank you very much, Jytdog. I understand it now. What a place this is, Jytdog.... trying out the pinging thing on you. So am i using the indentations correctly? I guess so, if it's just for formatting purposes and not to ping. And i guess to keep aware of changes on watched pages then i need to go to my watchlist page. Thanks. SageRad (talk) 16:52, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

yep i was pinged - and you will be notified by this comment, b/c it is here on your Talk page. and yes you are understanding indenting, signing, pinging, and watchlists. the logistics that take a bit of learning to master and can be so baffling. hooray! Jytdog (talk) 16:56, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Monsanto etc

SageRad - Different areas of the encyclopedia have different cultures, and as a controversial subject, Monsanto discussions can be particularly contentious. You might find looking through the archive of discussions on Jimbo Wales (cofounder of wikipedia)'s talk page useful. It is the place where big picture issues like those you mention in your Monsanto comment are most often discussed: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales. The essay Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth might be of interest, as well.Dialectric (talk) 16:35, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Dialectric. I appreciate the pointers. I did find a section called "How our "Due Weight" and "Proportioning" policies have degraded some articles" on the Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view page that seems to discuss these issues. Is this what you had in mind for me to look at? I fully support verifiability, but i worry about the framing and weight given to various aspects of topics in terms of struggles by groups with different agendas. I'm also concerned about the nature of consensus as used by some people who urge compromise on what the facts are, or what facts are included or excluded, and sometimes the way that very strict interpretation of guidelines can limit the usefulness or completeness of articles. SageRad (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, you edited my talk page to add indenting on my above comment to Dialectric -- what's that about? Is that a signal like "I have seen what you wrote?" SageRad (talk) 09:54, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

no, it means that your page is now on my watchlist, that I read what you wrote, saw it was misformatted, and fixed it. i thought about writing, but didn't. but in light of your comment, i will write now what i was going to then, since your comment is right in line with it... you are kind of overthinking things and you are writing about your overthinking on article talk pages. There is a reason why assume good faith is a pillar here, and why so, so many of the policies and guidelines are focused on the surface of things - one content, sources, policies, and guidelines. Anonymity allows people to speak freely here and is a very deeply held value in the community, but it also can breed paranoia. AGF is meant to be a bulwark against that. (please think about that) I wrote to you way, way early in our interaction, that this this place is very well thought out, on a very deep level, in such a way that this place can be beautiful when people fall in line with its vision (you saw some of the kind of interaction that is possible here on the Glyphosate talk page). Policy X can cause Y kind of reaction, so policy Z arose to correct that or guideline W arose to give nuance. The structure of PAG is also beautiful. But there are also still some pitfalls that people can fall into... and you are falling right into one. For what it's worth, i advise you to keep it simple. "Verifiability not truth" is advice along the same lines. The thing to aim for, is well sourced, NPOV, encyclopedic content. Try to write it, and when others differ, talk about it with them, simply and directly, based on sources, policies, and guidelines. please leave Truth and speculation about other editors' motivations out of it. Jytdog (talk) 12:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I assume probable good faith in a new person, and then i judge a person's character by their actions. There must logically be a point at which "assume good faith" no longer applies, as people do get banned from Wikipedia for vandalism and impetuous edit warring, don't they? After first contact, then people are being judged by their actions to a degree. That's a fact, isn't it? Do you disagree with this? Do you think that any judgment of a person by their actions is forbidden in Wikipedia-land? Trying to clarify your meaning. SageRad (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, i found this on the Assume Good Faith page: This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of obvious evidence to the contrary (e.g. vandalism). Assuming good faith does not prohibit discussion and criticism. Rather, editors should not attribute the actions being criticized to malice unless there is specific evidence of malice." One must use one's judgment and not be paranoid, is what i take from that essay. SageRad (talk) 15:18, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

people get blocked based on their behavior, not on why they do things. we cannot know why people do things. (i'll add here, that it is really, really interesting to read the drama boards. this place is a laboratory of human behavior. it is amazing how often people get all mad at other editors and bring something to ANI, and end up with the case turning against them, and action being taken against them, because they have no idea how wrong they are -- in other words, editors often don't even understand themselves, much less other people.)

please focus on content and sources and whether they comply with policies and guidelines; focusing on what might or might not be motivating other editors is missing the mark - that is the pitfall you are falling into. going down that path leads to no where good. Jytdog (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Hey man, chill with the telling me what to do. SageRad (talk) 15:35, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I was speaking to sociological dynamics that i know exist in the world as relate to power and knowledge, and spoke in general terms. One can indeed, however, use judgment to discern probable motivations in people. It may not hold up as a criteria, but the related behavior can. If someone is overly contentious on a certain set of topics, then that in itself can be a problem behavior, can't it? Of course what constitutes "overly contentious" would also be a matter of judgment. SageRad (talk) 15:36, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

of course you can do whatever you like. i've been around a long time and worked on controversial articles for a long time. i'm telling you that you are driving over a cliff with regard to what you are doing here in Wikipedia which is not just any old place. you are free to keep driving in that direction, of course. i'll stop trying to help you. good luck! (i mean that) Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

You know, i am really finding it very difficult to work with you. Really difficult. You come up with allegations against me in nearly every comment of yours. And they acting like you're just trying to be nice an helpful and neighborly. And not even addressing the actual questions or points that i raise, generally. And then citing me for alleged violations of policies and guidelines. It's caused me to feel a very hostile environment here in pages you are involved with. You also seem to include condescension and veiled threats so often, sort of like "Watch out, boy! There's a line here you better not cross..." I tried asking simple questions, like about the relativity of what is deemed a reliable source, and i end up getting an accusation against me... I would not be surprised if you now try to block me or ban me from Wikipedia. SageRad (talk) 16:36, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no ill intent toward you - I have spent a lot of time and effort trying to help you understand how Wikipedia works - working here is nothing like writing a blog or commenting on some website. nothing like that. i told you above that there is a kind of "body of law" that provides the foundation what we do here and how we interact here, and that one of the hardest things for new editors to grasp, is that it exists at all, much less how it works. i have celebrated at times when you did get it. But overall you are not getting it; i do hope you eventually start to. going forward i'll be limiting myself to interactions with you about content and sourcing based on policies and guidelines. Done here too. Jytdog (talk) 16:52, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, if you find interactions with a specific editor contentious, you can request that they not post to your talk page. These requests are almost always honored. There is an exception of notification of postings to admin noticeboards concerning you. If you find you cannot assume good faith in a given discussion, one approach that works for some editors is the 'assume nothing' viewpoint. This is summed up effectively in a quote from wikipedia editor JeffBillman below.Dialectric (talk) 17:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

If I may offer a bit of unsanctioned advice: Assume nothing. Don't assume good faith, even though that's something of a rule here on Wikipedia. Don't assume that another editor has a particular intent, whether "good" or "bad". Don't even assume that another editor is a human rather than a dog. Why? Because when you make any assumption, even one of good faith, you are creating for yourself an illusion from which the truth may disappoint you. More pertinently, you expect a series of interactions from your fellow editors that may or may not be fulfilled. Ultimately, you reduce your fellow editors to your own prejudices and preconceptions. If instead you assume nothing, nobody will ever correctly accuse you of assuming bad faith, and you will never fall short of the ideal of assuming good faith. Indeed, it's the best way out of that thought trap. Cheers, JeffBillman (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Dialectric -- that is pretty much what i've been doing and when successful, it works out best, but it is true that a person with an identity (even a virtual person with a screen name) does automatically build up a profile in the human mind. The human mind is built like that for social interaction. It's hard to see and feel a pattern and then to ignore it completely. Thank you. I always welcome your unsolicited advice. SageRad (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

misrepresentation

Your charaterization of the sources i use here is not accurate. per WP:TPG:

• discuss content, not contributors
• Do not misrepresent other people Jytdog (talk) 16:00, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I think that's quite a stretch. I was asking a question about relativity of what gets called a reliable source versus not a reliable source, and you didn't answer the question and instead cite me with this? Ridiculous behavior. SageRad (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

the claim that "On the other hand, you seem willing to allow statements supported by citation of research reports from the industry and their allies about their own products, when they report the opposite sorts of things, claims to the absolute safety of glyphosate based on research that i know is not comprehensive" is a misrepresentation. Done here. Jytdog (talk) 16:50, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

SPA /COI

Hi SageRad. I am sorry to have you ask this, but now that you made this edit and added the same content to a second article, I have to ask you the following. (Please do not take this as a personal attack; about half my work here is dealing with COI issues in WP and I ask folks questions like this all the time.) Pretty much all your edits to date have been focused on gut microbiota and glyphosate. Today per the link above, you added content about a lawsuit focused on that issue, sourced to the website of class action suit. I'm providing you with our COI notice, and will have some comments/questions for you below.

I have nothing at all to do with the lawsuit against Monsanto that i noted in a news story last month and then edited into relevant locations at glyphosate where there is a section on legal things to do with the herbicide, and also Monsanto legal cases, which is a compendium of legal cases having to do with Monsanto. SageRad (talk) 13:28, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello, SageRad. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest or close connection to the subject.

All editors are required to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view content policy. People who are very close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may cause them to inadvertently edit in ways that make the article either too flattering or too disparaging. People with a close connection to a subject are not absolutely prohibited from editing about that subject, but they need to be especially careful about ensuring their edits are verified by reliable sources and writing with as little bias as possible.

If you are very close to a subject, here are some ways you can reduce the risk of problems:

• Avoid or exercise great caution when editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with.
• Avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam).
• Exercise great caution so that you do not accidentally breach Wikipedia's content policies.

Please familiarize yourself with relevant content policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies. Note that Wikipedia's terms of use require disclosure of your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.

For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. Thank you.

Question

Wikipedia is a scholarly project, and like all scholarly endeavors, disclosure of conflict of interest is essential for ensuring the integrity of Wikipedia and retaining the public's trust in it. COI issues get a bit ... interesting in Wikipedia, since we allow editors to be anonymous here. Please do read WP:COI, and please note that being involved in litigation is a conflict of interest.

While I am not asking you to disclose your identity (anonymity is strictly protecting by out WP:OUTING policy) would you please disclose if you have some relationship with litigation you wrote about? You can answer how ever you wish, but if there is a relationship, please disclose it. Thanks!

I will note that because you and I have tangled, I am starting this conversation but I will not continue it. Instead, I am opening this to the community by posting at COIN. Please see the notice of that below. Jytdog (talk) 13:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

It's alright. Let me just say simply: I have nothing at all to do with the lawsuit against Monsanto that i noted in a news story last month and then edited into relevant locations at glyphosate where there is a section on legal things to do with the herbicide, and also Monsanto legal cases, which is a compendium of legal cases having to do with Monsanto. I noted the case a month ago when i did a news search for "glyphosate" as i have been doing lately, and then when in noticed a section in the glyphosate article relating to legal cases, i thought it would be appropriate there. I do think the lawsuit is clever and i think it's a great idea, but i have no part in it nor do i know anyone involved directly with it. All i know is it's been the subject of a lot of talk and it's pending. I did try to cite the news story that described it instead of the legal filing itself, but i found that the website was blacklisted on WP and i have made a special whitelist request for that specific page so that perhaps we could cite a news article instead of a filing document, but i like the filing document nonetheless, as a reference. SageRad (talk) 13:31, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion

This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident in which you may be involved. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 13:07, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Thread is here: Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Glyphosate.2FMonsanto Jytdog (talk) 13:08, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and closed this. You have said you not connected to the litigation. Please do pay mind to avoid WP:ADVOCACY per the comments of others there. Jytdog (talk) 03:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

accident, i hope

in this dif you deleted my comment. i have restored it. i hope that was an accident. Jytdog (talk) 15:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh no, Jytdog -- a total accident. I didn't know that happened, and i'm really sorry. Thanks for asking instead of assuming i did that intentionally. I wonder how that happened. I would not ever do that intentionally. I respect integrity of dialogue fully. SageRad (talk) 15:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

great. Jytdog (talk) 15:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Your work is appreciated!

		The Medicine Barnstar
		Your edits on Polychlorinated biphenyls are noticed and greatly appreciated.   Bfpage |leave a message  10:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Discussing content

it is a simple thing to write:

the following content "X" was removed in this diff (with link) with edit note "CCCC" by (username X with link). (I don't understand the reason you gave) AND/OR (I don't agree that this should be removed because (reason grounded in policy and guideline)). Username X would you please respond to that? Thanks.

That is what we do here, per WP:TPG. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Warning

Please do not attack other editors, as you did at Polychlorinated biphenyl here and at WT:MEDRS here.

Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 12:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to second this warning. The comments on the MEDRS talk page and on the Polychlorinated Biphenyls talk page are really over the top. Not everyone who disagrees with you has an agenda, is ill-motivated, or intellectually dishonest. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 12:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

You think i "attacked" others? Really now? SageRad (talk) 13:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I had a very real question about a very real thing that happened, and i was seeking guidance and input from others on interpreting MEDRS since you and others have used it in ways that would exclude very solid data in the article, and i found that challenge to be in my opinion excessive and not to serve the article's best interest. This is still remaining highly contentious, and i would suggest it's not due to my actions. SageRad (talk) 13:38, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

If i were of a litigious mindset, i'd be plastering your walls with warnings and citations and crap like this, more than you've done to me. I hope someone takes the time to look at actual actions, and doesn't fall prey to the sophistry of your accusations, and makes some kind of independent assay on what is going on here. SageRad (talk) 13:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a real dynamic going on that i described over at MEDRS discussion, and my bringing it there was a good faith effort to defend against what i see as excessive deletions of my edits with the citation that MEDRS applies, when in my estimation that is not the original intended purpose or the spirit of MEDRS, and therefore i started a conversation over there and described -- in the abstract -- not naming anyone -- a situation to get people's feedback and to explain why i wanted this feedback, what prompted me to ask the question. And then for you both to comment like this at my personal talk page, seems to be harassing. SageRad (talk) 13:54, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

What i wrote in the MEDRS discussion:

Suppose that there is a single editor among 10 who appears to want to minimize any statements that may sound bad for chemical companies. Say that this editor cited WP:MEDRS on this, claiming that it's a biomedical claim that falls under the scope of MEDRS and therefore i need to find a MEDRS-qualified source or else the text that i included will be removed. Is that how we want Wikipedia to work? Please consider carefully, is this a MEDRS claim that would affect people's health decisions badly in the future, or is it historical data? Is this a synthesis or is it ok that i am simply reporting readings of PCB levels that were in the paper?

So, based on actual experiences, i made up a hypothetical situation and posed it as a question, as a thought experiment, for people to use in seeing why i am asking this meta-level question about when MEDRS does and does not apply strictly. I am working hard to figure out how the balance of powers and tensions among editors works out here, and those who are quick with a policy citation, or who "know the ropes" can be hard to deal with when they use that knowledge to be obstructionist -- and yes, i have been interpreting some actions as obstructionist, and i've been speaking to that, and i don't think you can really shut down a person speaking to their interpretation of reality, if they do so in a grounded way and with reference to behavior. I mean, i've been cited so many times now, each time being a form of you speaking about my behavior, i suppose, though i find them in the main to be frivolous. We have very different perspectives, apparently, and it's also impossible to know who a person is and what their motivations are, but from a history of actions, one can build up some interpretations. You've attempted to charge me with "advocacy" and with "conflict of interest" so it's sort of pot calling kettle black here, and i really think my observations hold a lot more water and have more real evidence than the ones you've charged me with, and you've done so formally while i am just trying to find a way to work here and asking for 3rd party opinions on interpreting MEDRS. I've seen your interpretations of WP guidelines being not such good interpretations in the past and i'm subjecting them to more scrutiny now. History of actions leads to characterization of a person's nature. That's not a crime you know. It's how society works, and it's how people figure out organically how to work together, and in some cases, who cannot be worked with because of obstructionism. SageRad (talk) 14:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

i will say this one more time. Since almost your first day here, you have spent more time discussing your speculations about the motivations of other editors than you have discussing content and sources. This is all documentable through diffs. I have told you many, many times that this is not what we do here. You saw at the glyphosate article that it is entirely possible to have a conversation about content, based on sources and policies and guidelines, and to get content changed or added, through simple discussion.

All that your discussion of motivation does, is add static. I gently warned you about this several times above, and on talk pages. I have now formally warned you. You are not taking seriously the behavioral policies and guidelines set up by the community. This is not any old website - there are behavioral norms here in Wikipedia. Please do not continue to ignore them. Please read WP:TPG and WP:NPA and follow them.

this is the last time I will say this. Making personal attacks as you are doing is not allowed here. If you continue, I will take action against you. You will of course do as you will. Jytdog (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

So much of what you said is interpretation, and yes, it's all in the diffs, thank goodness. SageRad (talk) 15:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

pcbs

I think I understand where you are coming from and in spite of our heated differences I sympathize.

Wikipedia is the most widely accessed site on the internet. For all the discussion about "building an encyopedia", an obvious part of the draw is to influence the tone and content of articles that are seen by hundreds or thousands of people each day. Thus articles about controversial subjects or those which some people feel have underappreciated ethical aspects become very contentious.

This is why things are so legalistic here. The range of opinions is so wide that we long ago gave up on the idea that we can agree what the Truth is. Wikipedia instead aims for the more modest goal of reaching consensus on what is verifiable using a complex set of rules about what is a reliable source. New editors, especially those who join because of an interest in (and often, a strong viewpoint about) a controversi topic often couch their arguments in terms of Truth. That isn't very effective here and they feel beat up and angry. But those sourcing rules are like the rules in football: they are all that separates this place from anarchy.

When I urge you to read the various policies and guidelines, I'm not just being condescending (though I susuppose that's part of it). It will help you be more effective and more politically astute. You'll get more of what you want and feel less frustrated.

On my phone so hard to type. More later. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 14:56, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Formerly, i appreciate your note and you taking your time to type it on your phone.

• I really do understand what you're saying about legalism being an effect of needing to stop quack pseudo-science and other things from taking over.

---Not just quack pseudoscience but legitimate and irreconcilable differences in opinion, at least from my POV

• As to "The Truth" -- this theme has come up many times, mostly from Jytdog, as a trope. I think there is a reality that we can know, and yet that we as humans mostly do not know. Science is a great tool in helping us understand reality, but we must also be very careful to understand probability levels, and to use discernment and guard against bias. I think you and i agree on this.

---There are all kinds of issues here, partly value related. I guess I see the truth as relative to some extent. Did Monsanto "know" that PCBs were toxic in 1939? Almost certainly. But put in context, the role of chronic toxicity was not really appreciated until the 1970s; people thought all you had to worry about was avoiding the dose that produces acute toxicity. To what extent should the article imply moral turpitude on the part of Monsanto? I'm not sure there is a single right answer to that

• Sometimes, there may be a model about reality, for example, something about the effects of a chemical on an ecology, that has a lot of evidence to suggest its probability, and yet is not definitely "proven" (a misnomer in science, but meaning that evidence is very strong supporting it). Sometimes, as well, there may be strong evidence, and yet that has not yet made it into a review article. In both of these cases, i hope that a comprehensive article about a subject would be able to evaluate the state-of-the-art knowledge about a topic, and to represent the best understanding that a group of editors can achieve. Sometimes, this might even include mentioning of different models of reality with indications about the likelihood and the weight of evidence for each. I know that this does exist in many articles, and it is a reflection of reality. I think that reflecting reality from the most unbiased place possible would be a great goal for an article, and for a group of editors.

---I've often added or tried to add (see Marijuana (drug) material that states that a certain toxicity is suspected by not proven. The sourcing rules are tolerant of this if you can find a secondary source that says as much.

• I see this place as somewhat like a courtroom, when there is contention, and somewhat like an editor's roundtable when there is more cooperation. I like the latter but i see the need for the former on occasion. I think that being too frequently legalistic, though, slows and hinders the process which could be done in a spirit of cooperation.

---I hate it too. But I have to accept that the reason for it is that I choose to edit articles on controversial subjects almost exclusively. If I write articles on drugs like penicillin, no one is going to have a strong, differing opinion

• I tend not to be a legalistic person, and to feel like "Come on, people, can't we discuss the content, without citing guidelines as if they are a legal code?" I really can be cooperative, and i know the goal is to make the best articles possible. I know it's not the place for me to insert my pet theories in a synthesis, of course. This is a place to reflect what is known, and also to sometimes reflect what is not fully known. It's also a place to discuss weight and emphasis of representations, and what to include and exclude.

--Agree Wikipedia is less than it could be. I come close to quitting about twice a month. It probably won't change

• I have felt that some interactions with other editors have been contentious and legalistic when they didn't have to be -- and that's of course a judgment call -- and this got my hackles up a few times, and then i went the route of "fire with fire" and asked for others to help interpret MEDRS for me, based on a simplified hypothetical situation -- a thought experiment to make the issue more plain by exaggeration. I see how you and Jytdog could see that as a personal attack, as we all tend to see critique of our actions defensively -- at least i do. I did not mean it as an attack, and i left out any identification an presented instead a hypothetical situation.

--Both Jytdog are in some ways "conservative" editors (Jytdog will likely object to that characterization, but that's how I see it). We have both spent a lot of time in content disputes with people who are very anti-corporate and who (from my POV) see Wikipedia as a place to soapbox and expose the evils of capitalism. (I think capitalism kind of sucks myself, but the other systems do too). The disputes have been pretty heated in some cases, and I actually have people who dislike me so much that they routinely show up to vote against me in any ANI or RFC proceeding on general principle, irrespective of the issue under discussion. From my POV (and I hope you won't hold this against me), your early announcement that you were here to change the tone of the articles and educate people about the chemical hazards they faced set off some alarm bells that a new activist had joined our ranks who was determined to push their personal view of the Truth and would not abide by the rules that the community here has adopted by consensus. The addition of some material that I felt was poorly sourced and the undoing of reversions of those additions set off additional alarm bells. I likely over-reacted and I apologize for this. On the other hand I'd really appreciate it if you tried to keep the aspersions about motivations off the article talk pages.

I appreciate your note. I hope my response was helpful in explaining my interactions. I hope we can work together as it seems you and i have been doing in the last 12 hours on the Belgian Dioxin Affair.

SageRad (talk) 15:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC) Ideally I would have found a better source for that material rather than simply deleting it. Things got too confrontational Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 16:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

note - I have talked about WP:Truth only in response to you bringing it up, SageRad.

fwiw, i will say here, that i agree with you that we humans are limited, and we use the best tools we can (scientific method as practiced by the community of scientists; historigraphic tools) to discern 'reality' as best we can, at any given moment. And since each of us is limited, it takes dialogue - a community effort - to get there.

In Wikipedia, we do that in a certain way. Which is what I have spent a ton of time and effort been trying to get you to understand and work within. The foundation that policies and guidelines provide is important; the spirit of it is beautiful and makes this place possible. If you interpret my effort to teach you that, to be "legalistic" that is your problem. Not mine.

what i care about more than anything, is high quality content based on high quality sourcing. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; yes it is conservative - we provide information that is reliable. that means we are careful. there is tons of POV-pushing on the articles i work on, and nobody - not pro-industry people nor anti-industry people - get to add crappy content unchallenged. On articles I watch, you will figure out how to write good content (and I try to help people learn how to do that), or you will continue to fail to have your content "stick".

I have tried to help you - i spent an insane amount out of time and energy trying to help you - and in response you have attacked me. I will continue to explain my edits but I am done trying to help you. Jytdog (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, i don't know about Truth, but i know there is a reality. We are trying to approximate reality with our models. Our models must include the nature of Power/Knowledge relations, which means that we must acknowledge that different entities have different interests in knowledge outcomes. However, we must remain dedicated to the *actual* knowledge, which is perhaps what is denigrated as "the Truth" but in fact is a simple sociological fact that different groupings of people want different outcomes. We must allow for this in articles, and explain the different interests in content held by different groups. This would be a way to escape the endless tussling we have been doing over which details get included in a story. It would be a way to make it objectively more accurate, as well.

I feel bad for how this has taken up your time and gotten you a bit upset. It's been frustrating to me, as well. I hope that we can get along and work together to make some great edits. SageRad (talk) 01:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

With good sourcing, we can create some great articles. SageRad (talk) 01:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

responding just to the last bit... that would be a good thing. i remain hopeful. Jytdog (talk) 01:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

David Gorski

Hi Sage, I noticed your removal of the citation from the Gorski article. I believe your reasoning is at variance with WP:ABOUTSELF, which states that self-published sources can be used for non-controversial statements about self. I did not revert as I have not editing that particular article before and did not want to give the appearance of WP:HOUND.

It is also my understanding that Gorski's blog represents an exception to the prohibition on using blogs and other self published sources for more general content, per WP:V, which says " Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." A" pubmed search confirms that Gorski has an significant publication record in high quality, peer reviewed journals on the subjects of evidence-based medicine and alternative medicine. Again, I have not reverted anything, but am simply drawing this to your attention for consideration.

Enough said. As I do not edit any of these articles on a regular basis, I want to be careful to avoid both the appearance and reality of hounding, so I will not pursue this issue further irrespective of what you decide to do or not do.

Sorry for all this legalism. Its kind of what we do here. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 15:01, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Why would Gorski's blog be considered a reliable source for anything? Or, you might ask, why would his blog be a reliable source for anything about which he has no publications?

On the other hand, why would Chemical Industry Archives *not* be a reliable source for anything, and not admissible on a story about Monsanto's history regarding PCBs?

I want to cut through legalism and say simply that bias is bias, no matter what. It is clear to me that Gorski has an agenda and it colors his reliability greatly. He publishes completely untrue statements as facts, and he censors people who attempt to corrects such facts. Plain and simple. SageRad (talk) 16:18, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

"He publishes completely untrue statements as facts, and he censors people who attempt to corrects such facts. Plain and simple" Interesting POV. I don't mean to harrass you here, so tell me if you want to drop this, but what exactly are these untrue statements? Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 16:20, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

About glyphosate, for one thing. I don't have time to go into detail right now and i'm not going to get pulled into legalism. Just saying, he's a biased person publishing a blog with an agenda and i'm not going to see his blog used as a source for things to push an agenda, especially in a rarified atmosphere where other things that publish actual documents as evidence are not admitted due to allegations of bias. It seems bias is not bias if you called it "Science-Based" or pretend that it's "objective" and yet this is not acceptable to me. There is bias where it's not stated, and it's actually more honest to state your point of view rather than to pretend to be unbiased or objective. I think it's an epistemological failure of a lot of rationalization about what constitutes reliable knowledge. SageRad (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I'd just say that the bias that is most easily detected is the one that most differs from one's own (including mine, not a pot shot at you). So its interesting that you see Gorski as having an "agenda", which is exactly how I would tend to characterize many of his critics.

Wtih respect to the legalism: Its easy to trivialize legalism but without rules we're all just a bunch of guys going through and deleting everything that disagrees with our personal opinions. In fact it is the rules that currently are preventing me from going back and reverting the edits under discussion now. I think you misapplied the rules here in a couple of cases, and would request that you reconsider. These things tend to come back to haunt one later when somebody drags you into ANI for an unrelated issue. But I'll leave it up to you and not trouble you further, at least on the topic of Gorski. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 16:30, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree fully with your first statement.

I'm fully willing to have a dialogue about specific cases.

This page is sort of like my own blog, where i can make statements based on my own experience, which does not include PubMed indexed articles, but does include a huge amount of experience and deep thinking on the world.

As to the function of legalism at staving off anarchy, it is also possible that we can be a bunch of humans discussing what we think is true and what should populate the knowledge base of the human species, using common sense about the nature of power and knowledge, and about the basic kinds of deception that people often try to perform as a facade to try to force a fact into the human knowledge base that is not legally defensible, such as the statement that glyphosate acts upon an enzyme not found in humans.

We, as conscientious citizens of the planet Earth, vow to present reality as we understand it, as clearly as possible to other humans on the planet Earth.

To me, it's as simple as that. I will call out an over-zealous GMO critic just as loudly as i will call out an over-zealous GMO defender. I will see the reality as clearly as possible, without bias. That is what i think we must strive for in Wikipedia articles, as we form human knowledge.

And, of course, we must source claims as well as possible, especially controversial claims, and in areas where there are vastly differing theories, we should present serious minority opinions in a proper framing as such.

SageRad (talk) 19:49, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr Gorski banned me from commenting on his website "Science-Based Medicine" for presenting evidence that dissented from his claims. At least one other person i know was also banned from commenting on the website by Dr Gorski. SageRad (talk) 02:15, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

So what? He was in his good right to keep misleading comments off the website. If you have a blog, you too can censor the comments. That is none of Wikipedia's concern. Don't misuse Wikipedia to right great wrongs or use it for your battles with Gorski. Only content found in reliable secondary sources can be used for such content, and I really doubt that any truly reliable secondary source has commented on that. It's totally insignificant trivia anyway. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:46, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

So what? It's censorship, that is the answer to your "so what?" And how do you have the audacity to assume that my claims were the misleading ones? I'm using Wikipedia to make sure that good and solid and factual information is presented to the public. To hell with your legalism. SageRad (talk) 11:25, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Essentially, it's the hypocrisy of someone posing as "science-based" and yet blocking science-based critique of statements that he has made, and posing as opposed to censorship, and then censoring a person from presenting such views in a forum for public comment. If you cannot see the problem with this, then you're blindered by your bias. SageRad (talk) 11:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

XKCD 1357. And this is an unambiguous violation of our policy on biographies of living people. Don't do it again, please. Guy (Help!) 20:54, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I very much disagree with that assessment of the use of that guideline in that way. SageRad (talk) 21:47, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Here i am trying to help you again.... but it is just so hard to watch this...

Four things you should know, SageRad. 1) WP:BLP is a policy, not a guideline, and it is a policy that is pretty important here as there are legal issues with libel etc on articles about living people. (remember that anyone can edit wikipedia, and that people carry all kinds of grudges - you can imagine what happens to articles about living people here all the time, can't you?) 2) Guy is an uninvolved admin as he addresses you on this. He can take action against you. So you should not take his warning lightly, at all. (note, MastCell told you at COIN that you were violating BLP on the Gorski article. MastCell is also an uninvolved and very experienced admin) 3) Even without a BLP policy violation and an admin looking at this, there are Arbcom discretionary sanctions available both for BLP articles and for pseudoscience topics. 4) Guy is giving you every chance to say "Oh, please help me understand what I am doing wrong."

End of four things. At this point, claiming that what you are doing is just fine, is driving over a cliff - the cliff edge is not far away. You will of course do as you like. Good luck, as always. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jytdog (talk • contribs) 22:48, 20 May 2015‎ (UTC)

I stand for truth. Reality. Representation of reality. An encyclopedia like no other. SageRad (talk) 00:47, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Please see WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:Advocacy. This may be where your objectives and those of Wikipedia diverge. If the divergence is too great, you will have driven over that cliff that Jytdog mentioned. Dwpaul ^Talk 00:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Representing reality is the mission of Wikipedia. SageRad (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, yes. You keep acting as though they don't exist, but they do, and they are what make achieving the mission possible. Jytdog (talk) 01:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

There's representing reality and then there's blazing the trail in representing reality. Oh, and of course "representing reality". Hence the need for reliable independent secondary sources rather than individuals with an axe to grind. Not that we've been here thousands fo times before or anything. Guy (Help!) 09:46, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course, man, JzG -- and what i'm trying to do is NOT to create a reality, but to represent the reality of the world as it is, using the best research possible. I'm doing exactly that talking about hoes over here and you may note that i'm being very careful there to use sources to find out the real etymology of things like the term "dago hoe" -- and to prevent the creation of a new false reality by Wikipedia -- for that's what has happened. For a few years, that article had the term "Dego hoe" as a primary name for the draw hoe, and that made it into a couple of books, including one from an academic press. That's the power of false representations of reality in Wikipedia, and it's why i do care about what Wikipedia says. You and others seem to think that i'm on a rampage trying to insert fake things according to an agenda. Well, my agenda is accuracy, as well as good writing, and balance in terms of weight and focus. Some articles are really important to the world, in the sense that they tell the human history. The article on PCBs, for example, tells of contaminations around the world. There, several incidents got disappeared through the years, and they are fully evident as reality from many reliable sources. That, to me, was a tragedy, for people were hurt in those incidents and we all need this in our collective history to be careful about future incidents. But seriously, it's about being accurate and real. And then, i get name-called and told that i'm some "activist" trying to use Wikipedia to "blaze a trail" to "show people The Truth" -- all this really distorted characterization with insinuations of evil motives. It's kind of sick. And so you might understand why i can react to that with some disgust or discomfort, and get defensive -- and then when i do get defensive, it's used against me again, saying "look how hard he's fighting! He must be an activist!" It's a pattern that is seen in so many horrible situations, like inquisitions. SageRad (talk) 10:34, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

And you're doing it right there, JzG, with your links, calling me "megalomaniacal" and stuff. Come on, really? I research, and i think. Sometimes i happen upon something unique or not well known. With glyphosate, i researched the chemical carefully, and i found to a decent level of confidence that there seems to be significant risk that it affects the gut microbiome, and that it has not been shown otherwise, although people claim it to be safe. Therefore, i do make this concern known, and then some people try to call me all kinds of names, and i have heard the term Dunning–Kruger effect so many times now, that it makes me sick. So many people use this term for anyone who questions some official story line. So, it's not like i'm a megalomaniac, but i'm driven to find out reality as best i can. Is that a sin or a syndrome? Really, this is weird. SageRad (talk) 10:39, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

No, that is not what is happening. You are taking an issue on which reasonable people can and do differ, and asserting that only your POV is valid. Moreover, in context, you were insisting on pursuing this argument in a venue where it is of only peripheral relevance. A blog post covers a person who says 100 things that are wrong, you want to debate one of these because you think he is right in his agenda on that item, even though much of what he says about it is wrong. Bloggers see this all the time, and it is common and uncontroversial to shut down such debate. You are exhibiting a bunker mentality and it is not helping your cause at all. I do recommend you watch John Oliver on Dr. Oz, as a Brit I find it very funny and I am told by my many American friends that the humour translates well. Try laughing along with m:MPOV, the joke is on all of us. Anybody who asserts that they never succumb to this is deluding themselves. Guy (Help!) 10:44, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I really do want to be working on weed science, agronomy, farming tools and techniques, etc... i want to be learning and contributing to these articles, but when i touched Monsanto / glyphosate / PCBs, i got dragged into all this conflict with people, and then my stubborn bone kicked into action and i recognized that there was a pattern of information disappearing and also high resistance for any edits in one direction, and very low resistance to changes in the other direction, and these were red flags to me. I am against censorship, and that's why i take issue with David Gorski, as well, and why i wanted it to be known that he does practice that. Wikipedia is wonderful because there is a record of all changes. With enough time, things can be sorted out by a reasonable person reading the records. SageRad (talk) 10:47, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Let me take you apart right here, JzG, You wrote: "You are taking an issue on which reasonable people can and do differ, and asserting that only your POV is valid" -- no, i am not. I am saying that my point of view is valid, but certainly not saying that only my point of view is valid. The trend has been that others are saying that my point of view is not valid and in the process calling me a whole slew of mean nasty names, and questioning my character for having the audacity to even think that i small puny human being could ever have a valid thought... there is a psychological process going on here. There is a continuous demeaning and insulting frmo a small corps of very dedicated people -- dedicated to demeaning me and trying to make me feel unworthy. That is what happening, and what you just did is called a strawman argument, by the way. SageRad (talk) 10:50, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

As to the significance of this, however, it's not a small thing, as you claim. It's significant, because it's a case in point about the nature of knowledge and power. David Gorski is a lightning rod precisely because he takes a very specific position on some things, and claims to be doing it from pure rationality and evidence. Yet, when examined closely, in the details, in the weeds so to speak, one can find errors, and when one points out an error, one gets censored. That, to me, is extremely important insofar as David Gorski is used to knock down critics of glyphosate's inclusion in the human food supply. See, this is not a small matter. It's an epistemological question of power/knowledge. SageRad (talk) 10:54, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

As one who does not really have a stance on GMO I can tell you with fair confidence that you are wrong. Again, see the XKCD cartoon. Not every post that mentions GMOs has to be the venue for yet another battle in the GMO wars. We'll know it's actually significant (rather than significant in the mind of someone who very obviously has a dog in the fight, i.e. you) when reliable independent secondary sources pick it up. If I had a dollar for every person with an agenda who has screamed censorship and suppression when their attempt to proselytise on someone else's blog has been shut down, I would be a rich man - and please bear in mind that the important thing here is precisely that it is someone else's blog. Your right to free speech does not confer a right to have it published in any specific venue. There are endless good reasons why a blog that specialises in critiquing pseudomedicine, would not want to go down the rabbit hole on GMOs. Guy (Help!) 15:20, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

When you say "that you are wrong" what are you saying i'm wrong about?

I am not making every article on GMOs a venue for yet another battle... i've been learning about glyphosate specifically and wanted to make sure the page on it does not contain factual errors as best we know from the best science possible.

As for the Gorski page, i first removed a badly sourced claim that was a self-reported rumor mill type of thing that he wrote about some other person trying to censor him. When that was reverted, then i added a claim by myself that he censored me, which he did, and it was removed. That seems to be rather alright to me. And the resulting freakout was informative. I was not trying to proselytise, but was writing about a subject that he had written about, and saying the reasons why i had some issues with some parts of it. Censorship is not predicated solely on ownership, and in the age of internet, ownership means less anyway. There are essentially public forums where the expectation is that voices of reason are allowed. It was indeed hypocritical how he banned me while he didn't ban the multiple people who attacked me like piranhas smelling blood. It's to be expected, and it's ok, but it's also ok to say it how it is when it comes to this forum, which is Wikipedia, which is definitely intended to be a place where there is freedom of reasonable speech, and where dialogue can proceed to completion and things can be hashed out, and where the public has a reason to expect a fairly unbiased base of knowledge, and i see such a serious bias in the article about Gorski that i needed to address it for the very basic purposes for which Wikipedia was established. SageRad (talk) 17:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

You are wrong in stating that this has any significance other than to you. Feel free to demonstrate otherwise by reference to non-trivial coverage in reliable independent sources. That, or drop it. And that, as far as Wikipedia policy goes, is an end of it. Guy (Help!) 21:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

COI

SageRad - you mention above that you have a real world dispute with David Gorski (or at least his blog). Having a real world dispute is a conflict of interest in Wikipedia. Please do not directly edit the article going forward, but rather make edit requests on the Talk page. I am again providing you with our COI notice.

Hello, SageRad. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you have an external relationship with some of the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest or close connection to the subject.

All editors are required to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view content policy. People who are very close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may cause them to inadvertently edit in ways that make the article either too flattering or too disparaging. People with a close connection to a subject are not absolutely prohibited from editing about that subject, but they need to be especially careful about ensuring their edits are verified by reliable sources and writing with as little bias as possible.

If you are very close to a subject, here are some ways you can reduce the risk of problems:

• Avoid or exercise great caution when editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with.
• Avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam).
• Exercise great caution so that you do not accidentally breach Wikipedia's content policies.

Please familiarize yourself with relevant content policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies. Note that Wikipedia's terms of use require disclosure of your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.

For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. Thank you.

I have placed a connected contributor tag on the Talk page, and placed a box there that can you help you make edit requests. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:18, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I have a relationship with Monsanto in that their product polluted the rivers near my place of birth. Does this mean i cannot write about them?

I have a relationship with Monsanto in much of the food i eat, for i eat their chemical glyphosate. Does this mean i cannot write about them?

I have a "relationship" with Gorski in that i read his blog and commented on it and he banned me from future commenting. Does this mean i cannot write about him? (If so, in the latter case, then he also has a relationship to the group that he claims wanted to stop him from blogging and therefore his statement on that topic would also suffer COI, probably more severely.)

SageRad (talk) 14:11, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

The COI notice is with regard to David Gorski only; above you described that you have a real world dispute with him. That external dispute is a relationship that causes a COI here in Wikipedia. Jytdog (talk) 14:23, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough then. I guess that is a reality. I'll blog somewhere about how he banned me from commenting, and then if someone ever picks it up as a tidbit of information then it has a snowball's chance in making it to the page. I'll refrain from any further edits to the page about him. I may still comment on the article's talk page if there's more about that conversation there. Thanks Jytdog, for looking out for objectivity. SageRad (talk) 14:28, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for acknowledging the issue. Jytdog (talk) 14:39, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Alerts

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding pseudoscience and fringe science, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

Template:Z33

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding Complementary and Alternative Medicine, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

These are relevant, please take note of them. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with either of these pages, to my knowledge, and my username is not mentioned in either of the pages about these cases. But thank you, nonetheless. Just clarifying that these have nothing to do with me to my knowledge. Perhaps i did make some minor edit to those pages, but i do not recall doing so. SageRad (talk) 14:14, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

It is a formality, to let you know that you are editing in areas covered by these discretionary sanctions, and that you might therefore be subject to restriction should you step outside the bounds of what is acceptable. Guy (Help!) 20:51, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk page usage

Please place all replies at the end of the discussion so that the discussion can be kept in a meaningful chronological order. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:17, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, i will do. I didn't know that was the etiquette and i was using the indentation to multi-thread but that makes sense. SageRad (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Final warning

If you mention Gorski again, I will initiate discussion on the appropriate scope for a topic ban. I hope this is sufficiently clear for you. Guy (Help!) 13:16, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. I suppose you mean, if i mention Gorski anywhere on Wikipedia, right? Because you can't prevent me from talking about something outside of here. Well, it seems i did mention the forbidden subject in this very comment. This illustrates the ridiculousness of dealing with issues by shutting down dialogue. I believe strongly in the power of good dialogue. This would have been over long ago if not for the persecution aspect of it. I'd be gone. Counterwill is a useful instinct in humans to avoid domination by undue authority, and freedom of speech is a deep instinct as well. You talk to me as if i'm a dog subservient to the master, and i am bad because i won't obey and "drop the stick" -- the metaphor of which shows the power relations you'd prefer. SageRad (talk) 13:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

you continue to make the mistake of personalizing things, SageRad. WP has policies and guidelines established by the consensus of the community. Individuals try to teach other individuals to understand and follow them (the policies and guidelines), yes. Individuals enforce them, yes. I and others have tried to tell you about the policies and guidelines and their origin in the WP community many times. By continually ignoring them (the policies and guidelines) and saying you will not follow them (in your language, "submit" to them), you are saying very clearly that you are WP:NOTHERE. You are now, right at the cliff edge. Jytdog (talk) 13:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Someone else in the whole stupid Gorski saga used the phrase "he refuses to drop the stick" and i am using this to illustrate the nature of the dynamic and the power relations.

WP guidelines are to be used with common sense, and exist for very good and understandable reasons, Jytdog, but you are using them legalistically, Jytdog, too often, against me and against the spirit of the guidelines themselves. You're wikilawyering me in a death by 1,000 paper cuts way.

I'm not personalizing anything except to base judgments on people's behaviors.

I reject your condescension and your threats, both of which are a constant in your talking to me.

I am most certainly HERE, and my standing up to bad behavior is a sign that i am HERE to make a great encyclopedia where good dialogue determines outcomes, instead of bullying and hyper-legalism to promote agendas.

You're continuously acting in ways that erode my ability to assume good faith about you. I begin assuming good faith, but actions cause revisions of this assessment when warranted, as it says in the guideline about good faith. I find your applications of guidelines very often to show lack of good faith. SageRad (talk) 13:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

As you will. Many folks have tried to help you. Jytdog (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

See, condescension and lack of real dialogue, and threats. SageRad (talk) 13:49, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Looks like the WP:IDHT behavior is continuing. Since you're still trying to engage in this battleground behavior, you have set yourself up for a topic ban, which exactly does prevent you from talking about a particular topic on Wikipedia. If you really want to continue this slog, I agree with Guy in favor of opening up the topic ban discussion at ANI. The community has invested a lot of time in you with no improvement in your behavior (though I still do wish this would change). Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:05, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with your judgment. SageRad (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

From WP:IDHT -- "In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive. Such behavior is disruptive to Wikipedia. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted."

• Others are bringing it to me.
• Someone posts on my talk page, "If you mention Gorski again..." What is that? What kind of threat, ultimatum, whatever you wish to call it. It's like Florida telling people not to mention climate change. What are the parameters, the limits? Here, i wrote the word "Gorski" -- are you going to shoot me now?
• I do not want to be wasting my time on this.
• Too many dialogues have been far from good in completeness or quality.
• A "community" pile-on does not make a point valid.
• There's been abusive behavior targeted at me.
• This is a farce.
• I'm not edit warring.
• I'm not repeating the same action over and over.
• I'm hearing and participating in dialogues.
• All i did this morning was to post on the talk page, for the record, that the claim in the header of the talk page is not correct. I have not been convicted on a COI charge regarding that article, and that there was indeed another source to the banning of me from Gorski's web blog.
• I have voluntarily recused myself from editing that article, and the only debate i've been engaging in has been about the principle of the thing, in forums where charges have been brought against me by others. I wrote a few days ago:

I'll refrain from any further edits to the page about him. I may still comment on the article's talk page if there's more about that conversation there.

and i haven't edited the article since saying that.

• I have admitted that posting my claim in the article was not a right action, but i did explain that i did it only after i removed a similar claim sourced to Gorski, and it was reverted, and i posted for dialogue on the talk page and there was no dialogue regarding it.
• There is not the pattern of ongoing behavior that you're claiming.
• I'm not a dog and i won't "drop the stick" when ordered by someone due to authority level, because that is not just or right. This is a place where dialogue and reason are supposed to prevail, and guidelines followed in the spirit of their intentions, and common sense used, and general good behavior expected.
• If i felt like bringing charges on people, i bet i would have some good cases for abusive behaviors.
• I advise the inquisitors to think again, try to look with fresh eyes, see the strangeness of whatever is going on here.
• There is nothing wrong with being stubborn when you're right about something.
• Four people saying something in a bad way with incomplete dialogue does not mean that it's correct.
• Can we drop this? I have a life. I have other things to do and other articles to edit. I hope you do, too.

SageRad (talk) 18:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

It's people telling you to disengage because you are risking having sanctions brought on you. It is best to stop your crusade against Gorksi by just dropping the topic not only on his BLP, but other related pages like this recent edit. The more you entangle yourself in Gorski related topics, the more likely you set yourself up for bans. That is not intended as a threat by anyone, but an effort to alleviate the problems you've been made aware of by you being involved in those topics. At this point, it's up to you what path you choose as I don't think anyone is looking to dedicate more time to trying to help you with this. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:11, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Isn't there some guideline against hounding people, dog?

Isn't this a threat?

Intimidation to not talk about a topic. Go away.

False charges, trumped up accusations, Inquisition-style hounding.

Intimidation to cause self-censorship.

What's wrong with my edit to add my reckoning about "Science-Based Medicine" on a TALK page in which people are discussing the bias of one thing versus another?

You and others trumped up this entire thing and it's so ridiculous. Leave me the hell alone.

Go away and leave me alone. SageRad (talk) 08:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I think y'all need to have a read of WP:HOUND and drop YOUR shtick. SageRad (talk) 08:13, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocked

You do not seem to understand warnings, so perhaps you will understand a block. Your comments re. David Gorski are pure trolling. They are unwelcome. Guy (Help!) 23:41, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

So what's that mean JzG? By the way, you're wrong. You don't seem to understand the necessity of not blocking dialogue with a false accusation. SageRad (talk) 11:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, i see what it means. It means you abuse your authority. SageRad (talk) 11:03, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

How does one user unilaterally block someone from editing at Wikipedia in general? Your accusations and dialogues are completely wrong-headed and bullying. How do you simply declare someone blocked? From where do you gain your authority to do so? You know you're dead wrong in your accusations about me. You cannot shut down a dialogue, with an accusation, and not give a person a chance to defend against the accusation. That is Spanish Inquisition style "dialogue" and you've done that several times now. That's why i posted -- or rather -- didn't "drop the stick" when the master told me to. Because you're not my master. SageRad (talk) 11:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Alright, whatever, dude. You know you're engaged in censorship here. The only thing i posted on the talk page was a correction to the banner that said i was banned from editing the David Gorski page, and that was not correct. There was not such a verdict against me. So i edited the talk page there to note that, and got shit for it, and you hatted the conversation. Then i posted to protest the hatting of that conversation, and you hatted that with an accusation of "grandstanding"... and then i commented on the hatting of the conversation on the closing of dialogue itself, and you then blocked me for "disruptive editing".

I am not being "disruptive" but i am only refusing to be subservient to you and to be silent when you levy an accusation against me. In other words, i retain the will to refuse your judgment. I refuse to stand silent in the face of an unjust authority, and to pretend that i accept the charges, and to pretend that i am shameful and guilty of what you say i have done. This is not an evidence-based process, and there is not justice here. This is you and a few others simply accusing, and asserting. It's a kangaroo court if i ever saw one. And you're a real piece of work. JzG -- you would do well in a regime that enforces obedience, whatever the end of the regime may be, even if it's the domination of a whole people or peoples in the name of profit. You would do very well in such an imperial role. And so you are. You're an imperious person who uses censorship and abuse of authority to get your way. Aren't you proud of that? You are a very good subject of the kingdom. Good on ya, dude. You injure your own soul when you do these things. You act inhumanely toward other human beings on the Earth, for what? Out of a distorted sense of reality and a missing ethical basis. Humans know dialogue, and humans know methods of control. You cannot control me. You can ban me, but you cannot control my mind. And it is obvious what you've done. Censorship. I did not disruptively edit. I've been doing very productive work here, very good and careful and judicious, and engaging in dialogue with many people about hoes and glyphosate and the like. People can read my history and my comments on Wikipedia and judge for themselves. I protest the closure of dialogue and the false accusations that you made against me, and that's a basic right of humans. The same spirit of resistance that leads to good things and ends unjust authority when it exercises censorship. SageRad (talk) 11:18, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yep, you've got to live with the karma of what you've done, JzG. It may take you a while to understand, but you eventually will. SageRad (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

The last King of Nepal banned my website from the entire country, and three months later he was no longer King. I edited a news source called "International Nepal Solidarity Network" and the king did not like information about governmental human rights abuses being presented in that way, and banned the website. He also shut down the cell phones of targeted people and shut down the Internet in the entire country for a while. He reached too far, and completely lost his grounding, and he soon lost his authority. The Sword of Damocles hangs over those who would exercise censorship, which is the very problem i have with David Gorski to begin with. One should note that i was not even commenting about David Gorski directly in the instance in which you decided i needed to "drop the stick" -- but rather had corrected the statement on the talk page banner that i had been blocked from that page due to BLP or COI concerns, whereas that was not a verdict that occurred in the places where it was discussed, so i corrected that, which was relevant to the page, and you hatted that and accused me of trolling or grandstanding or some such thing. I would have been long gone by now, if you had not felt threatened by my correcting of that piece of information. I do not suffer censorship with a meek smile. I simply call it what it is. SageRad (talk) 12:00, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You do not seem to understand Healey's Law of Holes. Everything you have just written argues for an indefinite site ban. Guy (Help!) 12:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. And you sound like someone who's also quick with the "Dunning Kruger" effect accusation, too. Everything i've written, JzG, shows a pattern of abuse of authority by you. SageRad (talk) 12:36, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

So you say. And everything you've written shows a pattern of refusing to listen to anything you don't want to hear. Guy (Help!) 12:41, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, not really, JzG -- i listen and i respond rationally and calmly, in most cases. I do show a pattern of not believing things blindly, of using my own mind, of reckoning for myself what's going on based on preponderance of evidence, and of not cowering to authority appeals for the sake of authority alone. If you told me to say that the Earth is flat, or that the sun revolves around the Earth and not vice versa, i would not do so. I would say "I don't think that's true, based on available evidence." I will not tell you "Yes, sir" just because there is a threat of punishment or banning me, and that does cause me trouble sometimes, but i think it shows the trouble with the system or person who wants to enforce a ban on dialogue, and not on me personally. I think it's a valuable thing to resist censorship and control when it's unjustly applied, and history would support my point on this. SageRad (talk) 13:05, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

This would be laughably silly if it were not for the fact that it's real. It's hard to believe that someone takes their time to do this kind of thing -- to hold down another editor for such a silly reason. SageRad (talk) 13:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

SageRad (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

I was wrongly blocked for "disruptive editing" whereas i posted to a talk page only to correct the wrong information on the banner on that page, and then was repeatedly shut down by JzG in what seems to be a grudge-based "drop the stick" sort of need to feel his authority by having the last word and closing dialogue, treating me like a dog, whereas i'm doing good work on many pages and have voluntarily recused myself from editing the actual article page in question and simply made that last statement on the article's talk page and would have been long gone if not for the excessive control and shutting down of dialogue

Decline reason:

Talk pages are not a venue to pursue your personal vendettas. I see no indication you recognize the underlying problems with your own conduct. Huon (talk) 14:16, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

---

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

• Note to admins reviewing this block: COI noticeboard, COI noticeboard. Guy (Help!) 13:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Note to admins reviewing this block: There was not a COI declared, and the "verdict" refers to the BLP page, here, where it was discussed at length and there was also not a verdict declared there, and the final comment by Roxy the Mainstream Dog is "I suggest you take a couple of days off, then return to the Gorski talk page, and open a new discussion, particularly if you have decided not to edit the article again. I bet you find a number of eds willing to try to understand the issue, and who will examine any proposal you want to make, and discuss a new beginning to this." -- and essentially i've decided not to work on the David Gorski article any more, and simply wanted to note on the talk page the erroneous allegation against me that was in the banner at the top of that talk page, and that's where this "drop the stick" thing got to be like this. It's a waste of time to me, but for the principle of it, i refuse to accept a person who tells me to "shut up" with an accusation hanging in the air, and uses authority to block me from speaking to the accusation. It's just not a right way to act in the world, in a society that aims for freedom and accountability and transparency. SageRad (talk) 13:13, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• SageRad you were warned so many times above that you were heading for the cliff, that you were getting close to the edge, and that you were at the edge, and then you went right over with that additional POINTY posting at the Gorski article. The block is meant to be a wakeup call that there is a real problem - civil discussion has gotten no where, so your editing privileges were temporarily removed. Instead of taking it as a lesson, you personally attacked Guy and have insisted that there is no problem. You are now heading not just for a cliff edge (you already went over that), but now for oblivion - an indefinite block (aka, a ban). Everything I have told you so far, has been true and come true. If you want to stay in WP, I hope you listen to me now. If you want to avoid an indef, you have to acknowledge that you cannot use Wikipedia to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, promise to work to build an encyclopedia based on WP's policies and guidelines... and then do that. But as always, you will do as you will do. best regards. Jytdog (talk) 13:38, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• I engaged in good dialogue about many things. The way you attempt to boil down a narrative here as me being the fool who went over the obvious cliff is so untrue. You're railroading. Civil discussion has gotten many places, but your lack of good dialogue has been a source of a lot of problems. You're quite skilled at lawyering, Jyt, but you're not so good at real human dialogue with real good faith and real good intentions. I do laugh in the face of your threats. I call them what they are -- kangaroo court tactics. You're not the boss of me, and yet you seem to think you are. I would sooner listen to a 5 year old child than to you. There are other editors in Wikipedia whom i respect greatly, but you are not one of them, and i would not trust your reckoning to be worth the electrons they use to reach my screen. Your tone is clearly a threat, and it's also a positioning of yourself as an authority above me, and it's also a chokehold attempting to get me to submit to your will, and this is not what Wikipedia is about. This is not the Spanish Inquisition. Those days are over. Your threatening and toxification of the editing environment are the real crimes here, Jytdog. SageRad (talk) 13:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Joseph N. Welch Jytdog

"Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us. Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true he is still with Hale and Dorr. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale and Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think I am a gentle man, but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me."

• When McCarthy tried to renew his attack, Welch interrupted him:

"Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

• McCarthy tried to ask Welch another question about Fisher, and Welch interrupted:

"Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this further with you. You have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have seen fit to bring it out. And if there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness."

SageRad (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

the Mccarthy analogy is not apt. I have discussed your concrete behavior and how that has violated Wikipedia policies and guidelines. You were blocked for concrete violations of policies and guidelines after being very clearly warned to stop by two admins and at least two regular editors. You continue to very firmly ignore these community norms and warnings. You really don't seem to care about Wikipedia itself, at all. You are indeed doing, as you will do. Jytdog (talk) 13:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I've discussed with you, Jytdog, specific guidelines, and reasons why your interpretations are not always correct, and other editors have discussed said issues with both of us as well. And, you are simply wrong about the block. There's no ban on me posting to the Gorski talk page, and i have recused myself from editing the article, and i'd be gone completely from there as well, if my simple correction of the incorrect statement about me on that talk page were not there, or if my comment correcting that would have been left standing, and yet the darkness of control and censorship ineluctibly destroys itself by overreach. Your assessment of the series of events is by far not reliable or equanimous. Your narrative is a railing against me. Your generalizations of my behavior are way off the mark. The record is there if anyone wants to devote days to figuring it out, and i doubt anyone will, since there are bigger things in the world that need attention. In a nutshell, though, your characterization is dead wrong. I am a good citizen here, participating in good ways with many good people. There are a few people who seem to want to exercise undue control over others in very disrespectful and harmful ways. Those people are the problem people. I want to help to refine a great resource for humanity, the Wikipedia. You continue to allege that this is not in my interest, but it's a thing of beauty, and can lead to a lot of good in the world. That's not wrong. That's a good goal. Representing reality and propagating knowledge. Community working together to create a human knowledge base. I am a human who cares and thinks and uses discernment, and works well with others. I do not suffer undue authority well, and speak against it when i see it. That's what you don't like about me. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. SageRad (talk) 14:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You are a human who is demonstrating more and more that he is WP:NOTHERE - that you are here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I have said this to you before - WP's policies and guidelines are deeply considered creations of the community - they have authority over us, and individuals enforce them. (we do have a "rule of law" here) Your refusal to acknowledge that, and your casting of the discussions about your policy violations, as personal disputes and power games, is a huge problem. Your actions at the Gorski article and Talk page were violations of WP:SOAPBOX; you abused your editing privileges and were blocked for it. If you were HERE, you would get off your high horse, acknowledge your mistakes, apologize, and move on. The more you grandstand here, the more you show you are NOTHERE. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Talk pages are not a venue to pursue your personal vendettas. I see no indication you recognize the underlying problems with your own conduct."

The above judgment implies that i was pursuing personal vendettas in the action for which i have been blocked from editing on Wikipedia. Can you show that this is true?

I will tell you what i was doing, very simply and clearly:

• I was posting to the talk page of the article, in order to clarify that there was an incorrect piece of information in the header of the talk page.
• After i did this, someone removed that comment, and said that it was not the use of the talk page.
• I posted again remarking on the removal of the comment and that it seems like this is a use of a talk page, to discuss information about the article, and that would include what bans are listed in the page header.
• Then that was removed too, and i remarked on the irony of the removal of dialogue about the removal of dialogue.

So, about whom is this alleged vendetta and how do you glean from what happened that the action for which i was blocked was such?

Seriously.

Please give me specific behaviors which you think are wrong.

I think it's just because i won't shut up when told to shut up.

SageRad (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog "You are a human who is demonstrating more and more that he is WP:NOTHERE" --- nope. I'm glad you think you can read my mind and determine my motivations. I'm here to help refine a great Wikipedia, and to be one of the millions of contributors who helps to shape the human knowledge base. Period. Full stop. So i touched some "controversial" topics which are essentially controversial because there are vested interests who would rather have some information remain hidden. That's not my problem. That's the problem of people who want information to remain hidden. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. That is not wrong and it's not in conflict with the mission of Wikipedia -- in fact it's highly in line with it. So you can take your toxic obstructionism and go away. I reject your charges wholeheartedly.

And then you have the gall to go and say that my refusal to accept blame and guilt is another sign that i am guilty... do you realize what a kangaroo court argument that is? Seriously, i am not making it up nor am i being too rhetorical when i use the terms inquisition and kangaroo court. Nor when i compare to the McCarthy hearings. I mean it. If you could take a step back, honestly, and view it from a bird's eye view, i'm sure you'd see it. If you could get our of yourself for a moment, i'm sure you'd see it. Do you honestly think this is a worthy way to spend your time in this world?

SageRad (talk) 18:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

you are just getting angrier and angrier, and missing the point more and more. As before, i will let you be. good luck. Jytdog (talk) 19:05, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, i am not getting "angrier and angrier", Jytdog, and you are missing my point. I'd be most happy if you would *actually* let me be, and would have let me be since i first encountered you, for you've been hounding me. I'm sorry you spend your days like this. Your condescension is thick, and yet i understand perfectly well what is going on here, and the "problem" if there is one, from you perspective, is that i won't bow to you and say "Oh, i'm sorry sir" for the "privilege" of editing Wikipedia. You're on a power trip. I'd much rather spend Sunday morning with some coffee, editing an article on some aspect of weed control, and yet i must encounter a litany of bully people instead when i turn on the computer. Just go. I'll be able to edit tomorrow, and i'll continue doing as i've done, and i'm not gonna take anymore bullshit. SageRad (talk) 12:20, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

No more harassment, no more hounding, no more bullshit. No more using "guidelines" as cops use laws against people they want to harass. No more pulling me over and kicking my headlights and then ticketing me for it. If you continue to abuse power and hound and harass me, and interfere with the enjoyment of editing, i'm taking it to the higher power. WP:HOUNDSageRad (talk) 12:34, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Wow! Massive denial and IDHT behavior. It's time for an extension of the block, a clear topic ban, and possibly blocked access to own talk page. -- BullRangifer (talk) 23:09, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Whoa, dude, you're really on some strange drugs here. SageRad (talk) 00:00, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Why the major deletion from talk page?

User JzG, why this deletion from the talk page of the David Gorski article? I think it's harmful to remove this dialogue from that page, and seems to show evidence of a pattern of protectionism. WP:BLP is important but also limited, and does not give you or any other editor carte blanche to remove long things written by others, nor to prevent any relevant details to enter an article about a living person just because you want to. SageRad (talk) 15:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect header on talk page

User JzG, there is an assertion on the header of the talk page of the David Gorski article that links to what it alleges to be an admission of COI by me, and yet i maintain that it is *not* an admission of COI and that has been determined to *not* be so by two rounds of community discussion in the forum for that purpose, and yet the text remains in the header of that page and you have prevented me from making note of that misinformation on that page itself. What do you intend to do about this unethical situation in which false information is present on that page and you stridently prohibit me forcefully by shutting down my attempt to correct it, to the point of blocking me from editing all of Wikipedia for two days, simply for making note of this error on that page? I demand accountability. You wish to hold me accountable for my action? Well, it goes both ways. You need to stand up and be real. SageRad (talk) 15:38, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Admission of guilt on POINTy

User Dialectric, i wish to state that i have reviewed your revert of my edit here and i agree with your point here. I agree that i edited in a "pointy" way and that was my mistake in this thing. I should have left the story as reverted, and found a better way to address my concern about the sourcing of the claim about the attempt by a group to censor David Gorski. I admit this as a mistake. It's the rest of this whole matter that bugs me. The inquisition aspect of it all, and the false flag on the top of the talk page of that article that states incorrectly that i am blocked from editing that page due to a COI, whereas i have not been deemed to have a COI. I do not wish to edit the article, but i do want that flag corrected. SageRad (talk) 22:48, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

A topic ban needs to be formalized. -- BullRangifer (talk) 23:12, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Even if you are in the right, once an admin has blocked you, continuing to push the issue that lead to the block will be seen as disruptive editing by many experienced editors. Admins are unlikely to overrule other admin actions except in very rare cases. At this stage, if you wish to avoid further blocks, I suggest you stop mentioning Gorski altogether. I am not an admin, but if you want to revisit the issue in 3+ months, I am open to discussing reliable sources related to the issue with you on your talk page at that time; for now, let it go.Dialectric (talk) 23:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't need to edit the David Gorski article, but i want to edit other articles on weed control, among other things.

I just wanted administrative accuracy on whether i was formally banned from that page.

Is that too much to ask? SageRad (talk) 23:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

User BullRangifer, that seems really unnecessary to me. I've stated that i have no interest in editing the David Gorski page, and i have not, since i said that. I'm not edit warring. SageRad (talk) 23:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

That's good, but the very fact that the discussion above has even occurred indicates a topic ban should be effected to formalize the situation. Then there would be no doubt in anyone's mind. You really need to completely ignore the subject here at Wikipedia, also in the future and on your talk page. Refuse to discuss it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:03, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

No, not at all. You cannot erase things from people's minds because you wish to. I will not edit the David Gorski article, but i demand that the formal statement that i have a COI judgment against it needs to be removed. This is not negotiable. You do not get to edit people's thoughts. SageRad (talk) 00:05, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

To whom is this comment addressed? -- BullRangifer (talk) 00:09, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

To you, of course. SageRad (talk) 00:10, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

do you want my thoughts on the COI thing, Sage? Jytdog (talk) 00:33, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, your indentation didn't make it plain (I have tried to fix that), and your comment was even more off track and seemed to apply more to some comment above, since there is nothing in my comment which would indicate a wish to "erase things from people's minds". My point is that you do have a clear COI because of your antagonistic relationship with Gorski. You say that "This is not negotiable." This isn't a democracy, and you will have to abide by the decision of many others. On this one you lose. If you don't choose to walk away, you'll end up blocked. It's just that simple. If you walk away from the topic, you can do lots of good here.

You came here with a vendetta against Gorski. That's very clear. That's why you have been told by many not to edit the Gorski article, and because of BLP concerns, it would be best for you to avoid the subject, since that just gets you in trouble. You can do more constructive things here where you won't get in trouble. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:49, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

No i don't, Jytdog -- i don't value or trust your judgment at all, and i don't want ANY of your thoughts.

BullRangifer, you're simply not the boss of me and your attempts to hold authority over me fail.

This place is what it is, not a democracy, but not a dictatorship. It's a place where jerks who spend time to game the place end up with too much control. Witness the games and lawyering by many people here. Go away. Stop wasting my time. Stop giving me shit.

On the topic, you're *still* dead wrong. I don't have a "vendetta" against Gorski and stop saying that for the fiftieth time. You fail to hear, to listen, to be in dialogue.

What i don't like is the railroading practices being done here, the attempts at undue control over others, and the -- frankly -- reeking mass of bullshit many of you bring here.

I want to be able to edit fairly with others, and many of you are being obstructionist and seeking to make me "drop the stick" still -- and still misrepresenting things in the worst kind of lawyerly way.

There are processes and guidelines her for good reasons, but some people are abusing those processes and guidelines against their original spirit and intentions.

Jesus, get a life.

SageRad (talk) 07:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Let me just make it absolutely clear to you, Jytdog and BullRangifer -- with Dialectric as witness -- that i do *not* have a "vendetta" against Gorski. I have an issue with censorship and the shutting down of dialogue, and bad dialogue practices, not individual people. So stop with the attribution of my motivations which i deny. You cannot read my mind, and i assert most clearly that i have no personal vendetta. I seek transparency and good dialogue, and that includes here in Wikipedia. My *only* admission is that i made a mistake by doing a "pointy" edit -- and i stated that clearly in the talk page as well. I didn't know there was a guideline against it, though it makes sense of course, and i did it *only* after dialogue on the talk page brought no response, and others were editing without concern or dialogue about it. That is what happened. All else is bunk, and a total waste of time. The stupid shutting down of dialogue by JzG and the power struggle he had over whether i could post a note to correct the talk page meta-information for administrative clarity -- all bunk. And you all apparently think it's just fine that an incorrect header is there, and you think it's just fine that i'm blocked for two days just for making a note on the talk page that that's incorrect there? What kind of people have taken over Wikipedia? A bunch of control freaks with no integrity. SageRad (talk) 07:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

No, you have a bee in your bonnet about your failure to abuse his blog comments for your grandstanding, and nobody here cares. Guy (Help!) 09:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

See, that's wrong and shows again your unilateral incorrect judgment. You cannot attribute my motivations. I have much more of a "bee in my bonnet" so to speak about YOUR abuse of power here on Wikipedia. Your action and judgment are so bad, and you seem not to care at all. You seem, oddly, willing to use power wrongly without remorse, here on this small domain called Wikipedia. SageRad (talk) 12:35, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

You use the word "unilateral" as if it has some significance. Everything on Wikipedia is unilateral, in that one person commits any change to the database. I am not the only one identifying a problem with your behaviour. In fact, the only one who does not seem to see a problem, is you. You might want to think about that. Guy (Help!) 15:58, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Point taken on the word "unilateral" -- i suppose i meant "unjustified and then not listening or responding to reasonable dialogue about the action, and not being willing to admit mistakes or revert decisions based on sound reasoning" which is a lot like "unilateral". As for the statement that the only one who does not seem to see a problem, that's wrong. The gang who shows up to comment negatively are the gang who have the issues with me, and that is sampling error. In fact, i would love to be able to recruit a jury of random people to review issues, instead of whatever admin takes an interest in rejecting an appeal or blocking me. How does one get a jury of peers here, and avoid gangs who travel in packs and beat up individuals whom they don't like? SageRad (talk) 18:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Odd how you sit there with your fingers in your ears shouting "LAA LAA LAA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" and then accuse everyone else of not listening. How's that working out for you here? Guy (Help!) 22:02, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

That's not what i'm doing. I'm saying that the David Gorski page has an incorrect meta-information on the talk page header and you don't seem to care. You do care, however, to block me from making a comment on that talk page to note that inaccuracy. That's strange. SageRad (talk) 22:05, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

And still, oddly, JzG, no comment on the potential memory-holing of this discussion of potential bias in the point of view of the David Gorski article. Why disappear conversation about the article by others? The page has an archiving bot. SageRad (talk) 23:01, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

What part of "drop it" are you having trouble understanding? Guy (Help!) 08:30, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

The part where you're not my master, JzG. What part of "You are not my master and i am not your dog!" do you not get? SageRad (talk) 13:31, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I do notice that the false information in the header is gone. Did you do that, JzG? If so it would have been nice to respond to me in kind that you've done that, in the many instances where i asked you about that. Result without process is not complete result. SageRad (talk) 13:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I see that you did indeed drop that here. Thank you, although an admission would have been nice, but i take it to mean you see that this was out of place there. SageRad (talk) 21:56, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

June 2015

Please stop your disruptive editing, as you did at WP: Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Your edits have been reverted or removed.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively may result in your being blocked from editing. Claiming to be a DRN vounteer when not enrolled as a DRN volunteer and possibly having an ulterior agenda. (Even if no ulterior agenda, not a DRN volunteer.) Robert McClenon (talk) 18:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon -- what was "disruptive" about my editing? Is it that i'm required to be a registered volunteer to post on that page? I did not know that, and i made edits. That was not intended to be disruptive, but was instead intended to be helpful. Will you accept that explanation with apology that i didn't know about the registration process? SageRad (talk) 19:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You are not required to be a registered volunteer to post at that page, but you should be a registered volunteer to post as a volunteer, rather than as an editor. Identifying yourself as a volunteer, because incorrect, was disruptive. If you had simply posted a comment as an uninvolved editor, your comment would not have had to be deleted. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, understood now. I just thought that i was a volunteer because i was there volunteering time to review an issue, but now i fully understand. Please accept my apology with the excuse that i just didn't know the practice, and so it was a mistake. SageRad (talk) 20:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

NPA

Hello, I'm Jytdog. I noticed that you made a comment on the page Talk:Crop desiccation that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah i know you and i know what you did, Jytdog and i didn't like it one bit. My comment was to the point that you act imperiously and do whatever the hell you want despite the concerns and thoughts of others, and then you announce "this is the way!" and expect everyone to fall in line, so i called you "Your Highness" as an expressive form of sarcasm to tell you what i thought about your action, and then you deleted that very comment and showed even more that you're willing to act imperiously here and think you can control what the hell others are saying from their selves. It's classic behaviour from you, and i have a long history with you. And why were you even at that page -- following my contributions? Or did you have that page on your watchlist. Don't answer that because i do not trust you at all and would not trust your answer that you weren't following me. Our trust is completely broken, Jytdog, and i believe you're a bad and disruptive editor. SageRad (talk) 11:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes the article has been on my watchlist for a long time. Please discuss content, not contributors, on article Talk pages. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog

User Jytdog has been hounding me and making my editing experience at Wikipedia rather miserable for the last couple of months. So i'm finally calling it out, after he seems to have followed me to a page on Crop desiccation and deleted my edits there with a simple assertion that "it's not relevant" which from his voice seems to mean that "objectively" this is not relevant and then he deleted that, and then i reverted it and called him "Your Highness" to express that i found his behavior imperious, then and at many other times in our past relations, and then he deleted that comment of mine on the talk page there -- a level of control and censorship that i cannot and will not put up with. He cannot go around deleting people's comments just because he thinks they're "uncivil" and yet continue to act imperiously and expect nobody to call him out on it. It's a super horrible micro-controlling behavior that he's shown toward me for my whole time that i've been here trying to improve Wikipedia for the common good of humanity, to make it a better encyclopedia with contributions and edits by all. So, he's making a toxic editing environment for me, and i have seen a lot of evidence that he's doing that for a lot of other people, too. I could use a few witnesses. Comment if you can.

Message that i left on his talk page, for the record, because he'll prob just delete my message there.

This is in response to your post about removing my comment, which you posted on my talk page. Yeah i know you and i know what you did, Jytdog and i didn't like it one bit. My comment was to the point that you act imperiously and do whatever the hell you want despite the concerns and thoughts of others, and then you announce "this is the way!" and expect everyone to fall in line, so i called you "Your Highness" as an expressive form of sarcasm to tell you what i thought about your action, and then you deleted that very comment and showed even more that you're willing to act imperiously here and think you can control what the hell others are saying from their selves. It's classic behaviour from you, and i have a long history with you. And why were you even at that page -- following my contributions? Or did you have that page on your watchlist. Don't answer that because i do not trust you at all and would not trust your answer that you weren't following me. Our trust is completely broken, Jytdog, and i believe you're a bad and disruptive editor. I have work to do in the real world today and will not be replying here so this is the last from me for a while, but i want the world to know that i think you're a disruptive editor here in Wikipedia, and you've made my experience here contributing to this encyclopedia a whole lot worse than it could have been. No thanks for hounding me and accusing me of every paper cut charge under the sun. SageRad (talk) 11:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC) Consistenly destroying my edits and contributions and undoing them with threatening reason comments like "you are close to 3RR now!" ... oooh... you know, your behavior is very very very bad for a Wikipedia community member, and i bet there are a few dozen other people who wpould attest to very very very bad interactions with you, in which you use strawman argumentation, shifting goalposts, lawyerly language and techniques, annoyance tactics, and simply marching ahead and making edits that the group doesn't seem to want, and otherwise generally disruptive and non-cooperative behavior, anti-social behaviors that makes the whole process go a lot worse and complicates discussions that would otherwise be rather simple, and generally not seeming to be WP:HERE for real, as you've so often thrown that accusation at me, and WP:HOUND-ing people too, including me, and doing a whole lot of generally bad things. I'm gonna be gone from here for a while, but i'm leaving this extremely strong statement of my dislike for your behavior, and my general disgust at your imperiousness and obstructionism and obfuscationism. Yes, i am calling this out. I'm calling out your general bad behaviors that all seem to add up to a sort of agenda, as well, because you're ALWAYS lawyering for the side that would be the chosen agenda of the industry if they had someone working for them here, a single-direction force of non-cooperation here in Wikipedia..... why? Who are you? SageRad (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I bet there's going to be found some way to block me from Wikipedia forever now, simply for calling out my truth about Jytdog -- one of th many dogs. SageRad (talk) 12:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You've been warned about your behavior here multiple times, and this is not the way to address it. Jytdog has a lot of agricultural articles on their watchlist from the looks of it. I even saw your edits at the crop dessication page on my watchlist and was planning to take very similar action today before I saw they were already reverted. If you want to confound hounding with your behavior issues that have been brought up to you a few times now, you're really setting yourself up for a topic ban. The choice has always been in your hands, so what you do with it is up to you. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Way to not even address most of the issues i have. I have problems with the behavior of this editor, and there is a small gang of people including yourself, King of Aces, who are accomplice to this behavior. There's a corp of obstructionist people on Wikipedia who are unreasonable beyond caution. It's my finding after spending a couple months here. I will not censor myself on my own talk page. I'll speak honestly and openly. There's bad behavior here and it's not mine. SageRad (talk) 13:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That's exactly the problem you've been pointed out to many times though. Others call you out on your behavior and instead of actually taking that to heart, you lash out at those editors and try to twist them attempting to respond to or deal with your behavior as bad behavior itself. Your edits aren't sticking for very basic reasons grounded in Wikipedia's policies in guidelines, yet you seem to consistently escalate discussions to a WP:BATTLEGROUND. Editors tend to get topic banned when they persist in poor behavior while claiming it's not me it's them. I for one am done attempting to help you out here though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

If you say that i am showing a behavior, does that establish that it's a fact that i have done that behavior? That's the assumption you're making, that an assertion that i'm doing something wrong from you or from Jytdog makes that a fact and makes me the guilty party, when in fact there has been a whole lot of discussion around the many allegations about my behavior by the conservative gang here, and most things not established to have been true. In other words, false allegations for obstructionist purposes. And i am making allegations about Jytdog's behavior, too -- so is that a fact that what i say is true? Or is it subject to dialog? You see, Jytdog often MAKES it a battleground by acting imperiously and using very bad dialog practices, which has been noticed by others, as i have gleaned from many conversations around here. There's a bad pattern emerging. There's bad behavior. This place is captured by people who have an agenda. SageRad (talk) 14:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I ain't messing around. Censorship is the refuge of Kings and Scoundrels, and the two are the same. SageRad (talk) 13:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC) "The choice has always been in your hands, so what you do with it is up to you." Your tired, tired lines -- in other words, you're saying "Obey, or we'll f--- with you." Continous atmosphere of toxic threat frmo the likes of you, and Jytdog, and the small gang of others who swagger over these pages like it's their own property and they hold the deed to it, this domain of human knowledge surrounding agrochemicals and the food supply of the world. To the memory hole! Oh, a criticism of glyphosate finishing of oats? That's too irrelevant, a "factoid" and Wikipedia is not just "collection of factoids" -- oh, some more empty reasons to just do whatever the hell you want to do, erase other people's contributions, and not talk as an editor would talk, but more as someone with an agenda would talk while trying to appear to be WP:HERE. SageRad (talk) 13:34, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

even after all this time, you are still adding unsourced content to articles like you did on June 6 in this string of diffs and this dif. I don't understand why you will not follow the policies and guidelines. Jytdog (talk) 13:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Stop WP:HOUND -ing me dude. Get a life. Ever hear of copyediting? I think most people would say that i made valid edits there, and that it made a lot of sense, and that i untangled some little knots in that article by including aerial spraying instead of helicopters only, and whatever whatever. ... I'm doing good work and i stand by it. If any point is challenged for sourcing then i would do it, exceptr you and your gang use demand for sourcing as a technique of obstructionism and it's pretty darn clear. SageRad (talk) 13:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So why don't YOU bother to find source for those things? Do you think glyphosate is NOT the most widely used systemic herbicide? If not, what is? Got a source on that? Or did i add a correct edit, and you challenge it just to niggle? Is the 'floater' sprayer not correct? Is aerial spraying not correct? Is the word "recognized" not correct there in the reference to the value of a weed? Do you have a point besides to WP:HOUND me? SageRad (talk) 13:43, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you want me to find a source to use the word "is"? Is that where we're at now, the meaning of the word "is"? You know how well that plays to the ears of the public. SageRad (talk) 13:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I can't tell if you are asking me actual questions or just posing rhetorical ones. Jytdog (talk) 13:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Mostly real questions, look at how you don't answer. SageRad (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

your questions, quoted, with my answers interspersed:

• Q: "So why don't YOU bother to find source for those things?"

• A: I don't have that page on my watchlist. I just went to check your contribs after your messages above. You are responsible for your edits and for following policies and guidelines. We've talked about you adding unsourced content before and about how this violates VERIFY, probably our most content basic policy here. Jytdog (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Q: "Do you think glyphosate is NOT the most widely used systemic herbicide? If not, what is? Got a source on that?"
  • A: Per the above, you are responsible for your edits. Jytdog (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
• Q: "Or did i add a correct edit, and you challenge it just to niggle?"
  • A: I don't know if they are correct. There is no source to VERIFY with. Jytdog (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
• Q: "Is the 'floater' sprayer not correct? Is aerial spraying not correct?"
  • A: I don't know if that is correct. There is no source to VERIFY with. Jytdog (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
• Q: "Is the word "recognized" not correct there in the reference to the value of a weed?"
  • A: I don't know if that is correct. There is no source to VERIFY with. Jytdog (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
• Q: "Do you have a point besides to WP:HOUND me? "
  • A: My point, is that you are still blowing off the most basic of policies in your editing - VERIFY. You claim you are HERE but this behavior, as others, is showing NOTHERE. Why do you keep ignoring our policies and guidelines? (that is a real question) Jytdog (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

What i read at WP:VERIFY is "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." You see the qualifying phrase "whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged"? I think that's the spirit and intention as well as the "letter of the law" of this guideline of Wikipedia's. For example, if i were creating the article on dogs a long time ago, when Wikipedia first started, and i wrote "A dog is an animal," i doubt anyone would challenge that. If they did, i guess i'd find a reference, but how ridiculous would that be? As for glyphosate being the most used systemic herbicide in the world, i read that everywhere. It doesn't seem at all controversial. Here, for example, "Roundup is the most commonly used non-selective herbicide."

And then there's the matter of your quite often deleting my edits that ARE sourced for other reasons, to an extent that seems hounding to me.

To summarize: (1) writing copy that's not sourced is not "illegal" as per guideline, see the qualifying phrase in the guideline. (2) You also have a striking pattern of removing my edits that ARE sourced. And (3) your constant claims that i'm not WP:HERE are wrong, and tiring, and it seems to apply more to you than to me. Projection. SageRad (talk) 14:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

By the way, in the interest of integrity, do you want to make an admission that you're wrong about this point, Jytdog -- BEFORE flinging any new accusation my way? How about the integrity of admitting that you are wrong, or else further arguing -- in good faith and not with an axe on the grinder -- why you're right about this? If i edit an article to add a statement like "Grass usually grows in soil" without sourcing it, then would i have broken WP:VERIFY and subject to banning from Wikipedia? Or would this perhaps be something not likely to be challenged and therefore alright -- or if it gets challenged by someone then it could be sourced at that time? Let's get real. Let's really get real here. Let's speak honestly. Were you right or wrong about this latest accusation in your string of a thousand accusations at me? Why or why not? SageRad (talk) 16:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Once again, in the interest of integrity, user Jytdog, you made accusations above saying that i was in violation of a core Wikipedia policy, and i replied with a reason why i do not think that i am in violation of it. Do you have an admission that you are wrong, or do you insist that you are right, or do you simply drop this? You made the accusation. You are not responding to my response. This is the very essence of the way in which so much dialogue with you, in my opinion, lacks integrity. SageRad (talk) 16:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I've pointed out tons of policy/guideline violations you have made, as have others. WP:BLPCOI, WP:VERIFY, WP:NPOV, WP:NPA, WP:SOAPBOX, you name it. I can bring diffs for all those. That is almost every major policy we have. I am sorry that you are so resistant to learning. Jytdog (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

StalkingHounding

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The policies against hounding and stalking are ambiguous, and written so as to create controversy. In my opinion, many claims of misconduct citing these policies are made by editors who are themselves engaging in these kinds of misconduct. Unfortunately, it really does appear that you are stalking the edits of User:Jytdog and complaining that he is hounding you. You went to the dispute resolution noticeboard immediately after another editor requested resolution of a dispute with Jytdog to enter a complaint about Jytdog. (You then made a disruptive comment, claiming to be a volunteer at the board, expressing a very non-neutral opinion, which would have been improper even if expressed by a volunteer. However, the real question is why you went to DRN except that you were stalking the edits of Jytdog.) Several editors, including Jytdog, have tried to caution you about your edits in general. I have not researched your edits, and if several editors have cautioned you about making unsourced additions, you should consider whether you are making unsourced additions. However, what I can see is that you are engaged in a campaign against another editor, as well as refusing to accept good-faith advice. Maybe Wikipedia really is a terrible, deeply corrupt place. If so, why are you wasting your energy in it? Either try to figure out what the culture of Wikipedia is, or stop battling. You really are setting yourself up to get topic-banned or even banned. Pause and reconsider. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I am NOT houding Jytdog. The last time i clicked on his user contributions list was a month ago at least, and i've only checked his contribs i think twice ever. I do see a pattern with him, and i am interested in seeing what edits he makes as i'm WP:HERE in part to counteract his bias for the good of the encyclopedia, but i have not at all checked his contribs lately solely to not be stalking. It's that we happen to walk around the same grounds and topics, and i see him writing things that i disagree with, and therefore i write to oppose them when i feel the need to do so. It's not stalking to be in the same domain and on different "sides" apparently. I do in fact feel hounded by him, though, and look who has taken many formal measures against me (all failed, by the way) and been obstructionist in dialog, etc. I am NOT in campaign against another editor. I am in a self-defensive position of being hounded BY another editor. Please strike your comments or justify them further. This is not an established fact, what you say. I'm being attacked and then framed for being attacked, as being the attacker. This is SO SO SO wrong. SageRad (talk) 14:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Formal measures:

• 3RR to get the glyphosate article protected due to the edit warring you and I did there when you first came to WP. Result - article was protected = success.
• 1st COIN case was about your edits on David Gorski, which resulted in you no longer directly editing that article, per WP:BLP (by the way, the specific part of BLP that was relevant is WP:BLPCOI) As i wrote to you above, I closed the COIN thread b/c others pointed out that you were violating BLP (a policy) which is a more serious matter than violating COI (a guideline). Result = success.
• 2nd COIN case was about your edits promoting the class-action suit about glyphosate. You disclosed that you have no relationship to the lawyers filing the suit and you appeared to understand why it looked COI-y. Result = success. Additional note. A few days later, another thread was opened at COIN, noting that the attorneys behind the suit were trying to add content about it to Wikipedia and were frustrated b/c their efforts were being reverted. So my bringing the case at COIN was by no means crazy.

Additional note to Robert - SageRad came to WP in full ax-grinding mode, wanting to add content that glyphosate is a bad bad thing, and most of his edits to date have been directed to that. We get editors like this from time to time at articles related to Monsanto/GMO/pesticides. Lots of advocacy. But i would hesitate to say stalking. Jytdog (talk) 15:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

"Ax-grinding mode" is full subjective. Not admissible.

As to what's a "success" what does this mean to you? What are you expressing?

COI was NOT discovered.

Early 3RR on glyphosate article was BS and was very early before i even knew what 3RR was and if we really go back there with a fine tooth comb you'll find it's not true. I spoke to that at the time. Denied.

COI regarding court case against Monsanto was also NOT discovered.

If by "success" you mean what i think you mean, then it's actually failure to find.

SageRad (talk) 16:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry that you don't understand how boards function in WP. Jytdog (talk) 16:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Wow, what a sick backhanded comment attempting to pervert what happened. SageRad (talk) 17:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The rest of your diatribe is a diatribe and largely irrelevant, and i could address it but i won't and don't need to. Save for one part, which is that Wikipedia is important because it's a repository of human knowledge, and often seen as an arbiter of commonly accepted fact, and if it's being gamed by people with an agenda, that is so wrong, and in fact truly a crime against humanity, the hijacking of the human knowledge base. That is why, and that does NOT show anything bad about me at all. Lay off. SageRad (talk) 14:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

If you really think that User:Jytdog is such a bad editor, then, rather than stalking him, you should first read the boomerang essay, and then file at WP:ANI or file a Request for Arbitration to ban him, rather than just harassing him, which just reflects badly on you. Pause and reconsider. What you are doing now won't help. Whether you really are engaged in a revenge campaign is less important than that it looks like you have a revenge campaign. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I am NOT harassing him. Please stop making accusations like that. I got to the end of MY rope with him being a very disruptive editor on pages that i am interested in, and finally called it out. That is NOT harassment. That i being direct and honest. SageRad (talk) 14:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Just tacking on to Robert's comment (then I'm unwatching this page). SageRad, you were blocked by Guy and the appeal was denied by Huon specifically saying your talk page (or anywhere else) is not the place to pursue personal vendettas. The way you are pursuing things will not help you if your behavior comes up at ANI, so I highly suggest taking to heart what people have been suggesting to you to try to help you. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Proves nothing but that there's a gang of heavies who do this for a living or for fun. SageRad (talk) 16:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So what the hell is going on here? I raise a serious issue with another editor and i get nothing but punches in the face and accusation of stalking that person? What the hell kind of gang of thugs inhabits this place? Where is integrity, evidence, and reason? There is not much. It's law of power. SageRad (talk) 16:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

No, it is a matter of understanding the policies and guidelines that govern editing and behavior here. The feedback that every single person (all humans) who has commented here has given you (also a human), is that you are failing to understand them. You can dehumanize us all you want, but you are taking a stance further and further outside the community. You will do as you will. It is hard to watch, which is why I keep trying to reach out to you. That's all I will say. Stepping away again. Jytdog (talk) 16:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That is simply NOT true that i am "failing to understand" -- what i'm doing is "failing to obey" commands that i disagree with, which i think are unjust or based on false interpretations of the guidelines. Your continuous projection that i am "failing to understand" policies and guidelines is really wrong. You also haven't replied yet, at this moment, to my demand for admission or further argument regarding your accusation that i violated the WP:VERIFY guidelines, in light of my recent comments. I'm not "dehumanizing" you but saying you're a human who is behaving badly here, to my detriment and that of others, who find a toxic editing environment. And then you have the audacity to try to make it look like it's MY problem and i'm the one with the "failure to understand". Ha. SageRad (talk) 17:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

First, you aren't likely to get answers by ridiculous hyperbole, such as claiming that posts with which you disagree are "punches in the face". What happens when an editor habitually resorts to ridiculous hyperbole is that they get a reputation for being an editor who resorts to ridiculous hyperbole. Second, you say that you have serious issues with another editor. You haven't provided specific evidence that User:Jytdog is a disruptive editor, other than to make that claim over and over again. What you should do is, either, back away, or, if you really think that he is a disruptive editor, provide diffs, and take them to WP:ANI, Arbitration Enforcement if applicable, or Requests for Arbitration. All that you are doing at this time is alienating editors who are trying to advise you to stop being pointlessly confrontational. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not being pointlessly confrontational. I am being confrontational to put an end to a long-standing problem, or at least to call it out into the light. If this were my job and i had 40 hours to make the case, i would do so, and it would be 50 page brief suitable for court. SageRad (talk) 17:42, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You are being pointlessly confrontational if you continue to say that there is a long-standing problem with User:Jytdog without providing us with diffs to indicate what the problem is. The only obvious problem is an editor campaigning against another editor. What exactly is the Jytdog problem? Either provide the diffs or stop raging. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

My introduction to you is that you showed up at the dispute resolution noticeboard because a thread involving Jytdog showed up there, and you proceeded to state a case against Jytdog while claiming to be a volunteer. That appeared to be a case of being ready to fight. Once again, pause and reconsider. You say that you want to put an end to a long-standing problem, but you haven't identified a long-standing problem, except that your own combativeness is becoming long-standing. Pause and reconsider. If you think that being asked to pause and reconsider is a "punch in the face", then you don't want to edit collaboratively. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

(1) In the case of "claiming" to be a volunteer, that was a simple mistake and i admitted that once i realized the custom there, did i not, Robert? Please give me the credit where it's due. And how does that show being "ready to fight"? And what does "ready to fight" mean? Does it mean i am going to wield a knife through the screen? Or does it perhaps mean "willing to stand up for what i think is right using words" which is not "fight" but rather standing up honestly for what i believe? You can find it here where i pinged you severally regarding my admission and apology and the reason being due to lack of understanding the custom on that page which is different from all other conflict discussion boards i'd seen to that point on Wikipedia.

(2) I'm not exactly "raging" but i'm speaking out about a long-standing behavior that i have observed, and i have also noted that others have observed from their comments. Rather than suffer bad behavior silently. I do not have time right now to present a "case" in a courtroom style. It just reached the point this morning where i'd had enough, when Jytdog deleted my edit which i had carefully worked on, regarding crop desiccation, (well sourced and well written with another editor) and then when i questioned that deletion with the implication that he was being imperious, he imperiously deleted my comment on the deletion. It's another trip down the old memory hole. I'm not in for the ride. I'm not in a handbasket.

(3) I am indeed asserting that it's a long-standing problem with this editor in particular and a few others to lesser degrees, and that it creates a toxic editing environment for others. That's my statement. Your statement about me is your statement.

(4) I don't think that being asked to pause and reconsider is a "punch in the face" but some other bs tactiucs of ingenuine dilaogue are indeed a metaphorical "punch in the face". If you wish to quote me on "punch in the face" then where did i use it? Here is where: "So what the hell is going on here? I raise a serious issue with another editor and i get nothing but punches in the face and accusation of stalking that person?" and yes, that's pretty true as i see it. I raised issues about a user, and then *i* get accused of stalking and now hounding and many other bad behaviors. How is THAT ok? Phrase is "blaming the victim" and it's a technique of oppression.

(5) I am definitely WP:HERE to edit collaboratively, and when it's happened, it's been wonderful. I"ve edited with others on some pages in a spirit of collaboration, and that makes it even more ironic and hard to suffer when there are people who are ingenuine in their dialogue. Difference of opinion is one thing, but the constant moving of goalposts, strawman argumentation, and other bad dialog are horrible. I enjoy disagreeing with someone and then hashing out until we reduce it to the lowest common denominator and either name it a disgreement for some values reason, or else work it out until we agree. That's hardly ever happened with Jytdog and a few other people who seem to want to derail things that are not going "their way" and "their way" is a direction in favor of an industry, which is weird, and yes, i am implying a kind of biased obstructionism. It's far too uncanny to not notice the consistency of the direction of the pushing of Jytdog and a few others, whether by good or bad means, by any means necessary, really. SageRad (talk) 18:05, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Seconding Robert McClenon's point - focus on providing difs of edits that show a clear problem, and stop raging. Also keep your argument concise - my impression of your getting blocked re:Gorsky was that it was in part because you kept making lengthy replies to each comment. Sometimes it is best to make a statement then let it stand on its own rather than engage repeatedly with people with whom you disagree. If you do make a formal case, I suggest keeping it under 10 difs and under 1000 words. Dialectric (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just a bit of friendly advice

Verbosity is the enemy on noticeboards. Diffs are your ally. The advice provided to you by the editors who responded to your DR/N posting is very wise advice. Avoid personal attacks, do not allow yourself to be baited, stick to policy and guideline (PAG) references. You have much to offer - don't get swept up in the drama. Atsme^📞📧 19:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice, Atsme. SageRad (talk) 14:30, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion Partially Withdrawn

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have just read this talk page all the way through. I am now withdrawing my suggestion that User:SageRad consider presenting a case against User:Jytdog at WP:ANI, Arbitration Enforcement, or Requests for Arbitration. In view of how SageRad has spent the past month raging, treating advice as attacks, and being combative, requesting sanctions is likely to result in sanctions against the filer. The best approach would be to disengage completely. The second best approach would be to leave the invective here on this talk page, rather than taking it to where administrators will scrutinize his own history as well as that of Jytdog. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You are a new editor with a grievance against an existing editor, Jytdog. Jytdog gets into controversies because he edits in contentious areas, such as nutrition and pesticides, and tries to follow neutral point of view strictly, when there are often two opposing strong points of view, such as pro-industry and anti-industry. As a result, Jytdog does have a few enemies, but what I have learned is that Jytdog is usually right, and sometimes right in the middle when few editors are in the neutral middle. You haven't even said why you think that Jytdog is a bad editor, other than that he reverts your edits. Usually when Jytdog reverts edits, it is because they need reverting. You haven't said whether you think he is a bad editor because he mistreats you (and he is treating you no differently than anyone else who makes edits with whom Jytdog disagrees), or because he isn't sufficiently pro-industry, or because he isn't sufficiently anti-industry. All that I know is that you think that he is a bad editor. Just saying that more times will not persuade the community. However, now that I have reviewed your history, I won't ask you to present the case against him, because the admins will also see the case against you. So just cool down, if you can. Pause and reconsider. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You wrote above: "It just reached the point this morning where i'd had enough, when Jytdog deleted my edit which i had carefully worked on, regarding crop desiccation, (well sourced and well written with another editor) and then when i questioned that deletion with the implication that he was being imperious, he imperiously deleted my comment on the deletion. It's another trip down the old memory hole. I'm not in for the ride. I'm not in a handbasket." As you stated that, it did sound as though you were alleging talk page misconduct by Jytdog, and you were making such an allegation, but the misconduct was your own. Your comment about the deletion, referring to him as "Your Highness", dripped with sarcasm, and, in this case, it was possible to tell on the Internet that you were using sarcasm as a personal attack. I wouldn't have removed the personal attack, but I won't criticize Jytdog for removing the personal attack. Maybe if several experienced editors try to advise you that you are bringing your problems on yourself, you may be bringing your problems on yourself. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, what forms of expression are prohibited from Wikipedia? Is expressing frustration at somebody's imperiousness barred? Sure, i agree, it was sarcastic -- to make a point. The point being that Jytdog disregarded discussion and removed a good piece of an article because HE thought it was not relevant to the article, although two other editors thought it had a place in the article. And the reason being "not even worth discussing in WP. a buyer of one crop in one province in Canada. meh" --> That shows that he privileges his point of view over that of others, and asserts his own reckoning as being the final word on the matter. For when i reverted it, and talked on the talk page about it, then he reverted it once more, with the note "you are pretty close to 3RR on this now..." the implicit threat being "I am having my way on this, and if you revert it, i'm charging you with edit warring." In other words, he's doing an edit war and throwing down a gauntlet with the threat that he will charge me with edit warring. And now it's all about weight.

• Jytdog's original deletion here
• My reinstatement of it here
• Jytdog's second deletion of it here

And now the gang of conservative heavies is there saying "it's not important enough to include!" Because... because it's critical :of chemical crop desiccation. It shows some controversy over it. That's why. If it were some other detail, about mechanics of spraying, or anything else, it would not be subject to this level of scrutiny and barring due to concerns about "weight". Seriously. That's a pattern, ongoing, and clear.

Whatever. Systematic bias is very clear. People having "beats" is clear. Why are people WP:HERE? SageRad (talk) 11:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You ask: "What forms of expression are prohibited from Wikipedia?" I will answer shortly, but that is not a question that you should ask at all. The correct question should be: "What forms of expression are permitted in Wikipedia?" You seem to have a very basic misunderstanding of the nature of privately owned but editable web sites. You seem to think that you have rights to edit them, as evidenced both by your protestations here and your issues with Dr. Gorski. You do not. You are granted the privilege to edit them, in the case of Wikipedia, to contribute to collaborative building of the encyclopedia, in the case of Dr. Gorski, to comment within reason. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution does not apply. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not apply. Those laws bar governments from interfering with public freedom of expression. Editing a private web site, even one that anyone can edit, is not a right, and the web site only looks like a public medium. It is private. Until you understand that you don't have the right to edit Wikipedia, you will be confused about your privilege to edit Wikipedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You ask: "What forms of expression are prohibited from Wikipedia?" Uncivil expression is not permitted. Maybe you don't realize how consistently uncivil many of your comments have been. Since you are very sensitive to any negative comments about you, referring to them hyperbolically as "punches", consider how you would feel if other editors characterized you in the way that you characterize them (e.g., as "heavies"). Edits against consensus are not permitted. If your edits are repeatedly reverted, there are means for obtaining consensus, the first of which is constructive discussion on talk pages. (Simply repeated the reverted edit, as you have discovered, is edit-warring, and is not permitted.) For following steps, see the dispute resolution policy. BLP violations are not permitted (because people who are not editing Wikipedia do have rights, such as the right not to be defamed). Battleground editing is not permitted, and typically results in topic-bans. Conflict of interest editing is not permitted. You have (selectively) read enough of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines that you have seen a few other types of editing that are not permitted. I have tried to provide some answers to your question as to what is not permitted, but you have asked the wrong question. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not buy the argument about "privately owned" websites negating all consideration about freedom of speech. I also do not use or accept the language of it being a "privilege" to participate in society. The reality of the world today is that Wikipedia is a source of knowledge for many people, and people see it as a publicly constructed website, presumably where anyone can participate, within reason and reasonable behavioral guidelines. Similarly, when i google "glyphosate" and a website comes up first in the news, and i click and see comments there, i generally assume that anyone can comment within reasonable behavioral guidelines, and that the comments will be allowed, and not selectively cut or blocked by someone with a particular agenda.

I ask you to back off. I do not like your tone, which i sense as rather condescending, and negating and invalidating of the value of the things that i say. And then the implied threats of topic bans. I am so sick of people who constantly use implied threats in their language. It's far from civil or polite. And other things you're doing in your tone are far from civil or polite. Maybe you, maybe others, don't realize how uncivil your comments are sometimes. Pot, kettle.

I think my question was fine, and was the right question because it's the one i wanted to ask, and so i did. SageRad (talk) 14:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You attempt to make a lot of points, some of them marginally valid, some of them without validity. I will try to address them in order.

First, you write: 'I do not buy the argument about "privately owned" websites negating all consideration about freedom of speech. I also do not use or accept the language of it being a "privilege" to participate in society. The reality of the world today is that Wikipedia is a source of knowledge for many people, and people see it as a publicly constructed website, presumably where anyone can participate, within reason and reasonable behavioral guidelines.' I won’t provide a legal analysis of what appears to be an argument to declare private property, such as the WMF servers, to be a public resource. I do agree that Wikipedia is a source of knowledge for many people. It is a source of knowledge for many people largely because it has strict standards for editing to ensure verifiability based on reliable sources and neutral point of view, in order to provide quality content for the reader. To the extent that the WMF has taken on a public trust in maintaining Wikipedia, their primary obligation is to the reader, not to the editor. As such, Wikipedia has not only a right but a duty to prevent or revert edits of questionable veracity. Even if, as you appear to be claiming, private property becomes a public resource, it is a public resource subject to editorial controls.

By the way, although I concede that you have something of a social argument, although not a legal argument, about reasonable rules for expression on Wikimedia Foundation servers, your claim that Dr. Gorski engaged in 'censorship' is patent nonsense. There is no plausible argument that he intended his blog to be a public trust or public means of expression, and your use of the word “censorship” implies that you misunderstand the nature of media and the nature of freedom of expression.

Second, I see that you are very sensitive about the way that others address you, but persist in being insensitive about the way that you refer to other Wikipedia editors and address other Wikipedia editors. That isn’t a strategy that is likely to work well for you.

Third, you refer to threats and implied threats. You profoundly misunderstand many of those comments. They are not threats; they are cautions. If I were to say: 'Don’t drive at 80 miles per hour on the Capital Beltway, because you could be charged with reckless driving', that is not a threat, because I am not a trooper and cannot write tickets. It is a caution that I know that people have been charged with reckless driving for driving at 80 miles per hour, and so advice not to do it. That is exactly what is being said about topic-bans.

Fourth, you ask me to back off. I will back off, but you are being self-destructive in asking those who are trying to advise you to back off on our advice, since it appears that your objective is to go on with your disruptive editing while silencing those who would caution you. I will back off, but your request is self-destructive. User:Diaelectric and I had your interests in mind. You are blowing off useful advice.

Robert McClenon (talk) 19:56, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I take Dialectric's advice with good care. I respect it. As for your post here, i disagree with nearly all of it and deny all ascriptions of my motivations that you make, here. I think i hear what's going on with veiled threats against me. It's not loving kindness. It's controlling behavior to get their way. I think that i do treat others with respect, when i am treated with respect. When i am not, then i don't hold back too much and say it directly. I don't have a "strategy" -- i have a solid core of integrity. As for the censorship argument, yes, the ethical argument is what i refer to. Ethically, and actually, it's a form of censorship. SageRad (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

user page

In my view [this] is pretty clearly a personal attack on me, based on what you have written above and elsewhere like . I suggest you consider removing that. Jytdog (talk) 17:14, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It's not an attack on you in particular. It's a call-out for solidarity, to see if others notice such a pattern in general, and i think it's within my rights to have that here. Jeez, really? SageRad (talk) 17:21, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It's not a personal attack on you, User:Jytdog. It's an impersonal attack on Wikipedia and its neutral point of view policies that apply both to pro-industry and anti-industry. As he says, it is a call for solidarity, that is, battleground editing. One possibility would be to nominate for miscellany for deletion as a polemic. Another possibility would be to ignore it as not worth the provocation. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Neither is it an attack on "Wikipedia". It's a call for fellowship. You all have a huge problem letting people be. Jesus. Y'all's gots problems. SageRad (talk) 19:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:SageRad

User:SageRad, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:SageRad and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:SageRad during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• SageRad, I just voted keep on this MfD but as a piece of advice, consider just removing the comment from your user page. Stop poking the hornets nest. Gigs (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
• It's a little better now, thanks. Gigs (talk) 03:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Coatrack

SageRad, about your adding back the content about beta-glucans. which you originally added here and just added back here, and about this comment on the article Talk page where you wrote " i think it's significant in terms of people noticing a difference with chemically desiccated crops and objecting to it"

You are again trying to add science-based content into WIkipedia about some supposed effect of glyphosate using inappropriate sources. We've been through this a few times now. It started with the gut bacteria thing, where you first just added it unsourced and then again unsourced and again unsourced with an edit note referencing "the truth" (I won't list all those), then used a primary source about cows, and then used news about a lawsuit... all with the same goal of adding content along the lines of "glyphosate inhibits microflora in the human gut". You are doing the same thing at the crop desiccation article - trying to make a claim that desiccation with glyphosate affects beta-glucan content (and thus human health), using sources that aren't appropriate. We call this WP:COATRACK. Please stop doing that.

I understand that you believe that glyphosate is really dangerous but we base content about health on sources that comply with MEDRS and non-health science-based content on sources that comply with SCIRS. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:13, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that the statement about Grain Millers' claim that glyphosate finishing affects beta-glucan levels in oats was significant and was properly sourced to the news article that reported the claim of Grain Millers to that effect. You may reckon differently as to significance of this, but the claim itself was well-sourced. In a sense, it does relate to human health as far as nutrition, but the claim was only about the levels of a chemical in the oats. I think it was a fair claim, and well sourced. Ah, i see where you're going with WP:COATRACK, but i really don't think it's that. If chemical crop desiccation affects the quality of the product, and if that's deemed significant by reliable sources, then i think that's a relevant aspect of chemical desiccation, the topic of the article. This indeed was called significant by the article in the Carlyle Observer. They said that it dominated the industry news. I think that's significant. SageRad (talk) 23:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

key phrase: " If chemical crop desiccation affects the quality of the product, " - key word "if". The phrase describes something about reality testable by science. So we look for scientific sources. If you read everything about this, you will note that other folks quoted in the news about this said "where is the scientific publication on this beta glucan thing?" That is what WP says too. Jytdog (talk) 01:05, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

It's a report about the action of Grain Millers to not buy oats that have been sprayed with glyphosate as a finisher, due to their report that the oat has different qualities, being more crumbly and having low beta-glucan levels, which can affect the labeling of the oats as "heart healthy". If it were a report on a major foundry refusing to buy ore from some source because of some inferior quality, it would also be admissible. Anyway, i don't want to debate the issue here because that's what the talk page is for. You came here to give me an allegation of coatracking, and i don't think that i am. Now you're talking about sourcing, a different issue. I'd rather debate that at the Crop desiccation page, but at this point i'm just tired of that too, given the shifting goalposts and strawman types of wiggly dialog going on there. I have many interests that take time to pursue. SageRad (talk) 01:17, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, a better metaphor, because crop desiccation is a process: if it were an article on a smelting process, and the product were refused by a major buyer due to perceived inferiority, it would be, i think, significant. SageRad (talk) 01:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Jytdog (talk) 11:11, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Raise source quality

In general, it will help avoid drama if you raise source quality. For example on this lawsuit thing, if a major news source (NYT, WSJ etc) reports on this, there is no way that I or anybody else will be able to take issue with the source. Please propose content on sources that you are confident will be acceptable to people who think differently than you and write content that is solidly based on them.

I know you don't much like me but look through my contribs to the glyphosate article. The sources are always the best, most neutral, most complete ones I can find (and I sometimes spend a long time looking for sources that report the whole story, neutrally - for example I worked for maybe two hours looking for the the sourcing on which I based this pretty small edit). And everything in the content I write is solidly based on the sources. You learn stuff when you do that, too. Like the Netherlands didn't ban glyphosate - they just banned its sale to private individuals "over the counter" as it were (you cannot buy it to spray it on your driveway anymore, but a lawn service can still buy it and use it on your driveway) and El Salvador's congress acted to update their pesticide legislation which they hadn't done in a long time - things banned worldwide were still on the market there. Yes they included glyphosate in the new list, so the content went into our article. (The best sources noted that including glyphosate in the listing was controversial there, and may end up getting reversed - but I didn't include anything about the possible reversal in the content I wrote b/c that is WP:CRYSTALBALL) Stuff like that. The reality turned out to be pretty different from the content first proposed on the Talk page of that article. There is so much bad "reporting" on the internet - you really have to work to get the complete story - all the facts of what actually happened - neutrally reported. A similar thing happened with the content about the French "ban" - tabloid-y sources treated it like something legal actually happened and someone added content saying that, but all that happened was a minister making a request with no legal authority or action, and another editor fixed it.

I do that because I do want to know reality as best I can, and I want Wikipedia to reflect it -- and I know that lots of people have strong points of view and my edits must be solid if they are going to stick. And they almost always do stick. The underlying principles are simple - unimpeachable sources and fully supported, carefully neutral wording, about things of encyclopedic value. Editing that way also honors the presence, concern and POV of other editors - it takes them seriously. Please do the same.

Please stop adding and proposing unsourced and badly sourced content to any articles, but especially to controversial ones. I don't like to keep arguing with you but as long as you keep doing that, I will. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Explaining

I patrolled your page. I went through the enormously-backlogged list of newly-created pages and confirmed that your page was okay: not spam, not an attack page, not a copyright violation, not any of the other reasons for which I would delete someone's page without asking. Then I clicked "patrolled" to remove it from the list of "pages that have not yet been patrolled", and moved on to the next entry. That's all. DS (talk) 16:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for doing so, DragonflySixtyseven. SageRad (talk) 14:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit war notice

Please discuss the proposed edits per WP:BRD.

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Glyphosate. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Jytdog (talk) 15:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I am NOT engaged in an edit war. This is a false accusation. Jytdog has a history of premature edit war accusations against me. I'm not giving this any more energy. You are wrong.SageRad (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Just catching up on the situation from the article talk page, but having your edit reverted and then restoring it back is by definition edit warring. You don't need to surpass 3 reverts to reach that point. When you make a new change that isn't accepted, it is best to follow WP:STATUSQUO (especially reading the last paragraph). In this case, your change was rejected, indicating you need to gain consensus for the addition. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I indicated my reason for reverting my edit back into existence, which was that the deletion was for an invalid reason based on a false statement of Wikipedia guidelines. The dialogue around that with the editor who deleted my edit did not carry integrity required to either admit this or deny it with some reasoning, but appeared to be willfully dismissive of Wikipedia guidelines instead, and therefore appears to be gaming the system. BRD assumes that the editor who originally deleted the text is willing to be engaged in dialogue with integrity and honesty about the deletion. In this case, it appears not to be the case. SageRad (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

If you add content, and another editor removes it and provides a reason, and you add it back, in that adding-back, you are edit warring. Per WP:BRD the correct move is to open a discussion on Talk if you still believe the content should be included, instead of just adding it back. Jytdog (talk) 17:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 7 August

Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

• On the Glyphosate page, your edit caused a redundant parameter error (help). (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:18, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:POINTY

What you wrote here on the Talk page, about this edit to the article, is the definition of WP:POINTY. I won't argue with the change to the article, but in general you shouldn't make edits that you don't actually support. That kind of behavior is sanctionable. So please don't continue doing that. Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, i actually support that edit. The sentence in question reported on assays of sensitivity of bacterial species found in milk, in a section on soil microbiota. I support the removal of this from that section. Previously, i had added the Jaworski (1972) paper to contrast with that sentence, to show that some bacteria are indeed highly sensitive to glyphosate, and i used one that was actually found in soil. Since that was deleted by another editor, then in the context, i fully supported deletion of the claim that i deleted. I will not use the reason that it should be deleted solely because it's a primary source, but in this case i did do something "pointy-like" perhaps by saying "So, i can just delete things if they're primary sources just because i want to?" But that's not the sole reason i deleted that claim from the section on soil microbiota. SageRad (talk) 16:14, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Reminder and warning about WP:ADVOCACY

Awhile back, you mentioned that you have some professional interest in microbial ecology, glyphosate, etc. Considering how much you are trying to insert content on microbes, etc. in the topic with solely primary sources, it looks like you are creating undue weight for your topic of interest in general (the definition of advocacy). The way around that is to simply cite secondary sources as everyone has been requesting that you do. Instead, you have yourself set up pretty handily for a topic ban on microbial topics and glyphosate in general even judging just by the various warnings and blocks you've received on your talk page. I'm not going to pursue such a ban at this time, but I do want to make sure you're aware of how precariously you're sitting on the edge of the cliff right now.

Also, please remember not to resort to personal attacks as that does violate policy WP:NPA. You have been misrepresenting editor comments here by claiming people are saying primary sources can never be used. Whether one is assuming good faith that you are just rushing too much and not catching what others are actually saying or just assuming something other than good faith is going on for your part, both cases are disruptive. I assume the former at least, but you'll run yourself over the cliff just as easily with that too. Do try to take to heart what others have cautioned you about behavior-wise on your talk page already. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Just a note referencing this post you made and deleted, talk pages are the place to discuss editor conduct. We don't do that on article talk pages, so this is the place to do so. It looks like you still have the blinders on and aren't quite catching what everyone has actually been saying at the article, and claiming that my post was meant as intimidation is just showing more problems with WP:BATTLEGROUND that got you blocked once already. This is a last-ditch attempt to make sure you are aware of your conduct issues so you can fix them instead of trying yourself off the cliff. Nothing more. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:29, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

There's a reason i deleted what i had written. SageRad (talk) 17:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, take a look at my talk page under BATTLEGROUND. It appears that we are both being targeted by coordinated harassment for our discussions on Glyphosate. I suspect we are both being goaded into taking out an AN/I or some other action whereupon all sorts of non-involved editors will suddenly rise to attack us. Please be careful.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:38, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

drchrissy, i wrote on your Talk page to warn you away from the cliff you are heading toward. I really do not like or want more drama. You chose to come into the glyphosate article, extending the scope of your editing into an article you know is controversial and on which you know i am active. Seeking to extend the scope of conflict is just unwise. And you are extending it yet deeper here. I know you don't like me but I am not goading you, at all. Nor SageRad. I was surprised to see Kingofaces post here, but it appears to come from the place as I was coming from - trying to work with an editor on their talk page to make article discussions more productive and head them away from directions that are not good for them, nor for the community. Jytdog (talk) 18:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, i get that feeling pretty often as well, DrChrissy. I don't feel a collegiate feeling, and i see what appears to be a coordinated effort among several editors who don't seem to respect rules and guidelines very well, and who seem to edit with a particular bent in a particular direction. But even saying this will be grounds for them to bring some faux charge against me. It's kind of bullshit, to be honest. And even saying that will be seen as... violation of X... I am here to make a great encyclopedia. Their warnings of this "cliff" is bullshit, and feels to me like intimidation. I'm pretty much fed up but i'm not giving up. I do not feel like they are trying to work with me. We need some kind of neutral witness and jury, but that's not easy to find here. Dogs seem to travel in packs. Ok, fellows, fire away! SageRad (talk) 18:16, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

If this is in fact a battleground, it's not me making it a battleground. Battle takes two opposing sides at minimum. SageRad (talk) 18:16, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, fwiw I wish that Kingofaces had not cited the comment you had deleted. I often edit or even what I write before any one responds to it, because I rethink what I wrote. Sometimes people cite things I revised against me, and I find that to be tacky. Sorry he did that - I wish he would strike. Jytdog (talk) 18:18, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Most of my post applied regardless of whether the linked post was made or not, which is why I didn't reply any further yet. I hadn't seen SageRad's most recent comment yet at the article talk page at the time of posting. I struck one sentence so there isn't any confusion on some things, but the remainder is clarification on my intent here.

Just an FYI for the future SageRad, there's no need to ping me if I've recently posted on a given page. I'll check back, and it reduces the likelihood of me responding to an edit you're in the processing of removing, copy editing, etc. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:27, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

to be clear, Kingofaces, what I find tacky is the reference at all to the comment SageRad made and deleted before any one responded. When I overwrite or delete a comment before someone else responds to it (which is legitimate) I do so because I am disowning what I wrote before; when someone tries to "stick me" with something I already disowned, especially as though I didn't disown it already, I find that just so.. icky. I don't do it to others and don't like to see it done to others. But you will do as you will. Jytdog (talk) 18:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the logistical note, Kingofaces43, and thanks for the "for what it's worth", Jytdog. That said, it does feel very much like a threat, coming here with accusations about my behavior and especially my motivations, and then speaking of this "cliff" in this way. Very very much like a threat and i do not like it one bit. I do not welcome it and i think it's not justified. I think it's not a friendly warning as you wish to frame it. It feels very much like intimidation to me. I'm not saying that's your motivation but you should know that's how it feels to me, how i perceive it. SageRad (talk) 18:47, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

+

to be clear, Kingofaces, what I find tacky is the reference at all to the comment SageRad made and deleted before any one responded. When I overwrite or delete a comment before someone else responds to it (which is legitimate) I do so because I am disowning what I wrote before; when someone tries to "stick me" with something I already disowned, especially as though I didn't disown it already, I find that just so.. icky. I don't do it to others and don't like to see it done to others. But you will do as you will. Jytdog (talk) 18:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

−

As for what you're calling "personal attacks" of which you're accusing me, this is my saying on the glyphosate talk page that several editors said that primary sources are not allowed. I suppose that in a very technical semantic sense, this is not correct, and therefore i have struck it from that talk page as a claim and acknowledged this. However, the actions of several editors did appear to be based on that interpretation -- actions like deleting a passage with a reason of "do not use primary sources". How else is one to interpret that? And then when i pressed explicitly for anyone to say that primary sources are, or are not, allowed, people did say that in so many words that primary sources are not used -- with some slight qualifying language. I do think that people also misrepresented guidelines. So while people did not explicitly say primary sources are not allowed, i see that people acted on that basis and a reasonable person would come to that conversation and those actions and take away a conclusion that some people think primary sources really are not allowed. I has to push very hard to get admissions of cases in which primary sources are allowed, and people are still not accepting primary sources on that article, at all, it appears, and have said explicitly that they would delete any future additions that use a primary source. So make of it what you will, but that's how i see it. I do not think i made "personal attacks" however. I think that i spoke without complete 100% semantic accuracy, and i have struck that particular sentence. I repeat that i do not welcome this constant talk about a cliff that i am going to roll over, and i think it's not warranted. It does feel like a threat to me and does feel like intimidation. I am not saying that is your motivation, because i cannot know what's in your mind, but i feel it as such. It feels strong-arming. This discussion could have gone so much more smoothly if we had a more collegiate atmosphere, and had discussed the article(s) in question specifically, and whether they should be included in the article or not based on their merit, with its being a primary source as one consideration, as well as its recency, as well as the context in the article text where it was placed and what its role was there. SageRad (talk) 18:47, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Note also that the paragraph in which i stated that several people said primary sources are not allowed was a paragraph to attempt to get consensus on this question, and to clarify, as well. I stated that in the paragraph itself, did i not? And pinged everyone to respond. People responded with an answer, but also with this accusation of personal attack. I am sorry to misrepresent the text of another person, but i did not mean it as an attack. Attempted to clarify. SageRad (talk) 18:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, i do appreciate the "for what it's worth" and Kingofaces, i appreciate the logistical note. SageRad (talk) 18:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

If you look up this page, SageRad, you will see that me and others have tried to talk with you many, many times about how Wikipedia works. All of that is an effort to prevent things from becoming really bad to the point where your behavior will lead to dramaboard activity. You will notice that the only time I have raised an issue about you at a drama board was about COI, and that board in particular is one where issues are really explored. The outcome was that you had no COI and I was fine with that. But no ANI. I don't like trying to get action taken against people. It is not good to lose people and it is a huge time suck. I hope it never gets there with you - I really don't. But when people don't listen and keep violating policies, that is where things end up. Big picture -- as has been said to you several times above, by Guy and Robert and others - warnings are not threats. Jytdog (talk) 19:08, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)There's a lot more to those talk page posts than just blanket statements saying primary sources aren't allowed, so if you're now starting to see that, then we can get back on track. Do be careful not to misrepresent posts in the future though. For this specific article and content, primary sources are not appropriate, which is the context everyone else has been trying to discuss under so far. That can be tackled at the article.

As for my intentions, I've made them clear in each of my posts that I was not interested in pursuing a ban, but that you are set in a position where one could be imposed if you continue down the route I described. Nothing threatening should have been interpreted on my part with a full reading of my comment. Responding to "You're almost going to walk over a cliff." with "Don't threaten me." is rather nonsensical here, so I really do suggest trying to comment with a cooler head. A common problem that leads to editors burning out is thinking people are out to get them when they are not. I mainly wanted to remind you about undue weight as a WP:EXPERT editor and previous behavior issues that have been brought up already, hence the approaching the cliff analogy. Since that's done, I don't really see a need to continue the conversation here further so content can actually be worked on at articles. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:14, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

You matter-of-factly state above "For this specific article and content, primary sources are not appropriate...". Who says? Why? It is exactly this sort of language which is causing the problems on the article. Why is this article different from others such that policy is being ignored or misrepresented.DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:31, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Follow up - this discussion should be on the article Talk page, not here.DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:32, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

The conversation here is done for now; again you are seeking to extend conflict DrChrissy. The discussion was appropriate for a user Talk page as its focus was editor behavior, not content. See WP:TPG Jytdog (talk) 19:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I think DrChrissy's point is good, and i welcome her presence here. I do NOT declare the conversation over, and this is my talk page. SageRad (talk) 20:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I still see absolutely NO grounds upon which you could pursue an action against me. Care to refresh me about what i did wrong allegedly? Really, now. This is getting strange. SageRad (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, here's the way i see it. I am a person of principle, and i am here to edit an encyclopedia. I am somewhat fearless and i don't obey people's orders, but i like to work it out and work from principles. You and a few others have indeed brought issues here to my talk page many times, but i do not think that proves that i am the one at fault, necessarily. That's a fallacy of thinking. It's like if a person has been pulled over many times and gotten many tickets, does it necessarily mean they're a bad driver? Could be they're driving while black in place where that's a de facto crime. Well, i'm editing with gumption and attitude, but i believe, in a principled way. I engage in dialogue and i insist on integrity and completion of dialogue more than most people. Therefore, you and a few others perceive me as a challenger, because in a way, i am, but that is not necessarily due to a fault of mine. And, there is an aspect to this all which i resent and find harmful, which is that you and a few others have this way of privileging your own judgment above mine, and then calling it my fault that we disagree. We seem to disagree a lot, and that's ok, but then to assume that i am the wrong party and you are the right party, and then to come to my talk page often and make statements like "you're nearly going over a cliff" does seem to show that you and Kingofaces and a few others privilege your own judgment in a way that i find haughty. Undue weight is an issue other than what we were talking about on the glyphosate page. There, as i see it, i was insisting very strongly in order to elucidate the principles on which an addition was being deleted. It seemed to be deleted on the basis of being a primary article. You or someone else could have taken this and said "It's not just because it's a primary article. It's because it is ______fill-in-the-blank____" and after a while of pushing, that finally came through. Many objections, from recentism to possible POV pushing or advocacy, came through, as well as danger of using primary sources on controversial topics. Anyway, these may be valid and can be discussed, but i was pushing strongly to understand exactly why it was being rejected, as being a primary article -- in itself alone -- is not enough to strong-arm (and yes, i mean to use that verb) an edit. I was pushing against what seems to be a strong-arming mode of editing among several people. I really don't see why we can't have more collegiate dialogue. But Kingofaces coming here right after that episode, and giving me a "friendly warning" about "going off a cliff" is not alright behavior in my book, and your joining in adds some fuel to the fire. Please try to see that it's not as simple as you being the complete expert and having perfect judgment, and me being strong-willed and always wrong. SageRad (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

There seems to be essentially a demand for me to obey you, Jytdog and Kingofaces, and sometimes a few other people who seem to walk in line with you. I am not an obeyer of people. I obey principles, and i obey ideals. I share the principles and ideals of Wikipedia. I sometimes disagree with you on interpretations, and sometimes i have a creeping suspicion that there is a wikilawyering that is not fully genuine going on. I get the feeling that some people want and demand obedience, and get really up in arms when compliance is not seen. SageRad (talk) 20:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes I know you view following PAG as some kind of "submission." You have said that before too. I have tried to give you some advice, so has Kingofaces.. not much more to do here. btw DrChrissy is a guy. Jytdog (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

No, that is an absolutely wrong attribution, in other words a nasty strawman argument. Strike that please. Do you want me to follow Kingofaces43's example and come at you with an accusation of personal attack because you mis-attribute something to my words? I mean that jokingly because i'm not the kind of person to think a mis-attribution is necessarily a personal attack, nor to get legalistic on you, but that is so so so wrong. You KNOW you have just distorted my meaning, don't you? I said clearly that i *support* guidelines and principles and ideals. In the recent conflict, do you realize that i was actually the one insisting on following the letter and spirit of guidelines? I was the one who was insisting on people clarifying their objections, and i was the one who was pointing out that guidelines do not actually prohibit primary sources, while they do give some cautions to their use in many cases. I have come to truly respect the guidelines and their spirit. I don't like a slavish adherence to guidelines when discussion can find another way, and i also HATE gaming and wikilawyering that uses guidelines in a distortive or selective way. Do you realize, Jytdog, that you have very much distorted my meaning as well as my character here, and i believe in a really poking kind of way, designed to rile? Anyway, please acknowledge or deny, Jytdog. What is your advice? To agree with whatever you say, and obey when you tell me to do something? SageRad (talk) 20:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43, do you see that personal attack? You better warn Jytdog that he is about to head over a cliff, just gve him a friendly warning, will you? SageRad (talk) 21:14, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

There is no personal attack in that most recent post. The "submission" comment is relatively in line with others commenting on your behavior problems rehashed throughout your talk page time and again. If you don't want to hear that, that doesn't make it a personal attack (another common problem amongst the "everyone's out to get me editors"). The same goes for the reasons why a ban could be likely. That's been rehashed on your talk page many times already, so there's no need for me to continue the conversation here as I said in my last post. Kingofaces43 (talk) 12:14, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." - Paul Simon. Think about that. In light of your bias in interpreting nearly everything. I rest my case. Bye. SageRad (talk) 12:42, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Can we have a sense of humor about it, anyway? My point here is that your assertions that i am continually wrong on points of interpretation are in fact a product of your own perspective. My interpretations are likewise a product of my own perspective. Everyone is seeing the world from a perspective. When these clash, they tend to get polarized and entrenched. But let's try to loosen these up, and to admit the validity of other points of view, and to work in a creative tension instead of a warlike conflict. Part of this is for you both to acknowledge that you do not know "truth" and i am not always 100% wrong when we have conflicting reckonings on something, such as whether a paper about glyphosate's effects on earthworms is a useful thing to include in a section on glyphosate's effects on soil biota, and that this *may* be worthwhile to include even though it's a recent primary research paper, or at least a discussion about whether to include it is worthwhile to have, instead of shutting it down by deleting it with "Do not use primary sources" as the reason, as if that is a hard guideline......... ah..... the layers of the onion. SageRad (talk) 13:24, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." - Paul Simon. Think about that. Here's something to think about, SR. Why not follow the advice you hand out to others? Why not read what others are repeatedly telling you and take heed? From where I sit, you are digging a pathetic and pedantic hole for yourself. I've been there, and it's not a position that attracts much support. I can't make you open your eyes and accept what is plain to others; that's up to you. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 16:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Because, sir, a gang of heavies does not comprise consensus, and because at this point it's on the meta-level about people being able to completely shut out a contribution simply by saying that a source is not "mainstream" and yet not defining what comprises "mainstream" adequately except that it seems to be "if i agree with its ideology then it's mainstream". From where i sit, you're a heavy-handed and rude person, and your threatening talk only emboldens me to fight back against it because it's unjust. Ever hear of the concept of counterwill? I do follow the advice i hand out. I do examine my own positions and think about them quite a lot. Sometimes i do change my positions, but in this case, i have only become more sure about the principles involved and the need to fight against bullying editors. I don't think that bullying tactics or outnumbering someone has any place in Wikipedia, which should and could be a place where rational discourse rules. I'll say it again, though. I do subject myself to a lot of self-reflection of this kind. I do ask myself whether i'm wrong on various issues. Sometimes i do mellow my position or find a middle ground, and on some rare occasions, i realize that i'm just plain wrong. I've thought about the issue involved here, however, for many days, while doing more rote tasks that leave my mind free. I've found only more conviction that the reasons given by other editors as to why this lawsuit should not be given a one-sentence mention on a page about legal issues involving Monsanto are meager at best, and continue to wonder why there is such strong pushback. First objection was that the source was not edited. Fine, i found an edited source. Objection is that it's not "mainstream" enough. Debate is not holistic. There's not the objective distance. There's not any benefit of the doubt. There's lawyering going on. It's pretty clear to me it's a bureacratic obstructionism, and that cannot stand on Wikipedia. SageRad (talk) 16:56, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you think I'm bullying you. I'm asking you to look at what we do on Wikipedia and accept that this is the way it is. All the answers you need may be found in established wikipolicy and the reasons why things here are as they are are in the talk pages and their archives. Why? Because why is that they work. Your case isn't causing more than the faintest of ripples in the real world, and no matter how much you may personally believe in it, if other editors can't see reason enough for inclusion, it's not going to happen. I haven't previously encountered any of the other editors "bullying" you, and I doubt I will again. There's no gang, no conspiracy. We work together to write an encyclopaedia. If you want to ignore the way things work around here, fine. You'll have a very difficult time. Thanks for your time. I'm done. --Pete (talk) 17:52, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

To begin, it's not "my case". That's a misrepresentation. It is a case in the world. I have nothing to do with it.

It is causing ripples. It's in several edited news sources. Smallish ripples, but ripples nonetheless, and in my reckoning, enough to be included in a one-line mention on a page on the very topic of legal issues involving Monsanto. It's an interesting case and it's mentioned by a lot of people.

And writing a note that ends with "I'm done" is a sneaky closure of dialogue. I just began to engage you and then read that you're done. If you're done then be done and don't write back. If you write back then expect a reply and read it. Ok then. Be done. Bye. I still hold your tactics resort to bullying behavior through ingenuine dialogue, as do several others, and that's not cool on Wikipedia despite how common it is. As for guidelines and policies, i'm well aware of them and work within them. You and a few others want to force convenient interpretations. SageRad (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Edit war warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Monsanto legal cases. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Jytdog (talk) 15:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not edit warring. Can you explain what you think is edit warring, Jytdog? Like very specifically, please? SageRad (talk) 16:05, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes you are. See the article Talk page. Jytdog (talk) 16:39, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I will also look forward to reading an explanation. SageRad, you may be interested to know that Jytdog was very recently forced to apologise to the community after he falsely accused me at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard of edit-warring.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy you have such a .... brittle perspective on things. I apologize when I mess up; I don't have to be forced. Nobody "wins" in WIkipedia and you would have a happier time if you didn't treat this place like a BATTLEGROUND. Jytdog (talk) 19:40, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Another note with unfounded accusations about me

As I pointed out in my post you responded to,[1] please read WP:FOC, which is policy, and WP:LISTEN. Opining about editors, calling things obstructionism because you don't agree with it, etc. on an article talk page is violating policy. Others have generally tried to stick to that policy regarding you and your various behavior problems, but it is also very difficult to focus on content when you keep interjecting things like your response in the above diff on article talk pages. You are still engaging in a WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior when others are trying to help you when they could seek a topic a ban pretty easily at this point instead.

Additionally, it getting to be pretty apparent you're having trouble when consensus is against you and moving on. Multiple uninvolved editors such as Pete and MastCell (just pinging as a courtesy) cautioned you against this at the recent RSN, so I really do suggest you take what they said to heart to actually acknowledge some of the issues that were brought up about your behavior. At the end of the day, your proposals are not getting traction, and opining as you are is not an appropriate use of the talk page. In such cases, the community just moves on rather than continue to engage a rejected idea. That is why you are now seeing people just refer to previous discussions as we do reach a point where continued discussion on a topic is not helpful. That is how consensus building works, even when it doesn't work in your favor.

Either you'll have a moment of clarity after having these things pointed out to you again so you can start steering in a better direction, or you'll treat this in the same manner as the many notes left on your talk page and elsewhere. That being said, I don't intend to respond here any further since you have shown a tendency to spin and deflect trying to say everyone else but you is the problem when others try to point our your behavior issues. I'm posting one last time hoping that doesn't happen, but if it does, there's no reason for me to try to squeeze water from a rock. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

This gets so tiring. I am trying to edit and things like this take my time and energy, and that is obstructive to good and smooth editing. That's part of obstructionism.

Let's see, to begin with i completely and categorically reject everything that you say and imply about the nature of my editing here on Wikipedia. You hold no credibility with me, given my history with you. I don't take your judgment as having much worth. I respond for anyone else who may read this, and because i must simply reject your polite attacks, once again. Even down to the section heading here, "A note on misusing article talk pages", which i will change to something more suitable for this topic in my reckoning. To your various general points, i *do* listen. I *do* focus on content, and i call out behavior when it's obstructing good progress on content. I don't make this a battleground. This seems to be a battleground but it's not because of my behavior here. There are many who see that it's not me who's out of line here. There's out of line behavior, but to try to pin that on me here is wrong.

What happened is evident at the "Monsanto legal cases" talk page. I added a sentence on lawsuits by three U.S. cities against Monsanto for PCB contamination. I had sourced it to four reasonable sources. Jytdog took that down. He said we don't report on filed lawsuits. I asked him if that's a Wikipedia policy. He never answered. I've asked the same thing in the past. And yet he still insists that this is a reason in itself to remove my addition. It's to the point of being utterly stupid now. I edit based on policy and guidelines of Wikipedia. Show me the policy that says that and i'll believe him. Otherwise, he has no right to push his point of view and his agenda into the article by stating a rule that is not actually a rule. That's so clearly obstructionist. We know Jytdog is an intelligent person. He's able to understand but is unwilling to acknowledge or admit that he's pushing an agenda here using a rule that he's made up, to prevent addition of a single sentence into the article about Monsanto legal cases, to add mention of significant legal cases against Monsanto. The pattern is too clear to ignore. Anyone with eyes can see it.

You can see in Jytdog's response to Aquillion here that he again states this as if it were policy, despite Aquillion's very clear explanation of why this is not acceptable by Wikipedia spirit and policies.

I suppose i'll ping, "as a courtesy", DrChrissy, who's had some experience with Jytdog's antics, as well as Tsavage and Aquillion who have seen the history of what's gone down on that article.

Note that the length of past dialog on that page absolutely does not establish that i am being problematic, as you imply in your note. Another possible explanation is that i don't simply put my tail between my legs and go away when faced with wikilawyering, but instead i insist on getting to the principle of the matter explicitly. In this case, the principle of the matter is that this is a significant lawsuit filing and belongs on this page. It's been reported by enough media to make that clear. We cannot have editors just making up their own rules all the time, and then ignoring direct challenges to their fake rule-making. That's a recipe for little tyrants to control pages with their bad behavior. I have other things to do. Gotta get back to work. Please stop wasting my time. SageRad (talk) 17:37, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of wasting time… Why not drop the stick and move on? Come back to these barely-filed cases if they proceed to any sort of significant outcome or attract major coverage. So far, there's just a few dribbles here and there in local and fringey sources, and you want them included in our global encyclopaedia because you think they are important. Why not wait until there is no question, and hence no opposition? --Pete (talk) 06:56, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Blue Army (Poland)

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Please comment on Talk:Murder of Anni Dewani

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OR ping

You have been mentioned here. prokaryotes (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

And here.prokaryotes (talk) 22:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Anglo-Saxons

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ArbCom case

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Thanks, -Tryptofish (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

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Rfc closure and review

Hi SageRad,

I saw that you filed a closure review for the Monsanto Legal Cases rfc. While I also have some issues with the close, I think it would be best to pull the request and wait for the closer to respond on the talk page before going to review. I would be surprised if he reopens the rfc, but it is not impossible. I suggest this in order to avoid any appearance of 'forum shopping' before we've exhausted options on the talk page.Dialectric (talk) 17:37, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Dialectric. I appreciate your advice, but i have just looked at some recent edits of the closer and see that he is clearly involved with the whole controversy cluster involving Monsanto and GMO foods and all of it, so i have simply put these facts out there, and i have requested another close. I understand the concern about "forum shopping" appearance, but i think that it is clear why i would be asking for another close to the RfC given the very involved nature of the editor who did the first close. I'm not shopping for a specific outcome, but only for the very basic request of an uninvolved editor doing the closing. I want to see Wikipedia actually work like it is designed to work, and it seems very clear in this case that it did not. SageRad (talk) 17:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi SageRad, I dont think we have ever edited together. I noticed the section on WP:ANRFC and was going to ask if you had asked for a review. By the comments above it looks like you have. Where is it? Thanks. AlbinoFerret 20:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello, AlbinoFerret, yes, i did ask for a review, and then someone came along who was very involved in the controversy area in question and closed the RfC but i and several others do not accept that closing, as we simply want a neutral, uninvolved person to do so. Now i have put another notice in asking for a truly neutral editor to do the closing. The RfC is found here and the explanation about why the closing was not deemed proper is here. SageRad (talk) 20:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

That doesnt appear to be the place for challenging a close. I am an editor closer, so I know that most reviews are done on WP:AN. You can read about it here Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Challenging_other_closures. The advice above is good in that asking Jgz to undo the close cant hurt, and is the accepted procedure, before going to AN. AlbinoFerret 21:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret, thank you for your advice. Here is where i have asked for another close, but i will follow your advice and ask JzG to undo the close first. That sounds like a good idea. Thank you for your help. SageRad (talk) 21:03, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

No problem, and since you now know where to challenge the RFC, please close that requests on WP:ANRFC. It wont do any good as any closer will just mark it "Already done" because it has been done and its not the place for a review. It could also be a distraction on WP:AN when you bring it there. AlbinoFerret 21:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• As I obviously, per my actions, agree, I'd like to suggest we step back from the article itself, and the Talk page for a few days. Your statement of a few hours ago is brilliant, though easily mis-characterized as a "rant." At this point it's obvious to any reasoning editor what's going on, and it might be best to let the dust settle. Happy to discuss here if you like, but it appears certain talk pages are being monitored closely, so choose wording with care. Mind you, I'm not caving to fear-mongering, but this is a sensitive time. Thanks again for your fine work. I have added your Talk page to my watchlist, something I should have done sooner. Jusdafax 19:44, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Jusdafax. I appreciate the advice. SageRad (talk) 19:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I have just spent some time reviewing the above. It explains a lot. So the same admin who blocked you closed the RfC, fascinating. I guess I have to start paying more attention. Jusdafax 20:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, i didn't even notice that. Thanks for noticing. SageRad (talk) 20:40, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Then there is this, which startled me, and If you haven't read it, is of interest. Jusdafax 21:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Kevin Folta mediation

I have asked for mediation in regards to Kevin Folta. Jerod Lycett (talk) 18:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Kevin Folta". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 22 September 2015.

Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 19:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Kevin Folta, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

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Please comment on Talk:Grand Duchy of Lithuania

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Legobot (talk) 00:02, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you !

	wadsworth waterfalls award
	Thank you for your good faith efforts, energy, patience, and love of life.Thanks for keeping the waters of knowledge flowing and working against their pollution. Wuerzele (talk) 09:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks so much for expressing your gratitude. This keeps me going on. SageRad (talk) 23:46, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Great search for the uninvolved

Hi Sage,

I've been noticing that with the mass exodus of independent editors, RfCs full of new, neutral voices are a thing of the past. It's been this way for a couple of years, and coincides with the decrease in editors. Those with agendas don't leave, so this creates a real problem when we turn to noticeboards and RfCs as we once did. The other issue I see is that the fringe patrol has a POV that is in line with the 'house POV' embraced by Wikipedia. Unless WP remembers that we are to present neutral information, not the views of few, then I fear we are just spinning our wheels. Anyway, after seeing the breakdown of the system here at WP, and after viewing your comments at ArbCom and then at Vani Hari, I thought I would share some unsolicited thoughts on this. petrarchan47คุก 18:09, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Petrarchan47, and thank you for sharing your perspective. I do agree. I understand that those with an agenda also have the motivation to find and appear as neutral voices on an RfC even though they have a history that shows an agenda and bias. I do participate in many RfCs, and i consider it my "public service". I always will state my COI or lack thereof, and say that i was called to the RfC by a bot, so that people know where i am coming from, and if i am a good neutral third-party pair of eyes. It is also why, in an RfC, i will always leave a note after a comment by someone who could fairly be expected to have a bias or an agenda -- for that defeats the very purpose of an RfC.

I've been editing Wikipedia on less controversial topics, such as colonial and native history, and other topics. It is so easy and enjoyable. The atmosphere has become so toxic around agrochemical and chemical industry topics. It's ridiculous. Are there seriously real people out there who make it their mission to defend an industry in this way, with such a lack of integrity? I understand very well the need for balance and neutral point of view, and to represent the world as it is, not to write a brochure for one agenda or another. I see it so clearly that people have occupied articles, and made them into brochures for an agenda, such as the slamming of Vani Hari which makes her article primarily a soapbox for Novella and Gorski. It's such ideological warfare going on. When i do make any edit at all to restore balance to the article, it gets reverted and the flying monkeys seem to swarm in and attempt to group-bully me into submission, and use all kinds of WP-CAPS citations without integrity, misrepresent me with strawman argumentation, and all the rest. Integrity is so rare these days. SageRad (talk) 18:17, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll largely agree with you both. Petrar echoes some of my concerns, and although I just now supported the AN request for a neutral admin to review, as I stated I doubt there is a single one willing to step forward, thanks to the pending ArbCom case and possibly other factors that contribute to what could be described as a "climate of fear." Since I have not enabled my email in many years, unlike some I never talk to my fellow editors off-wiki. It could be argued that this is a tremendous disadvantage. In brief, let's see what happens at ArbCom. Engaging with certain highly unpleasant parties should probably be avoided, and feels great to boot. My best to you two, Jusdafax 12:20, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi All. Is there a way we can respectfully ask ArbCom to hurry up and decide whether this case is to be accepted and its scope? I am feeling that certain editors are taking this time (hiatus?) to provoke and goad other editors into behaviours that might be used in evidence against them at ArbCom (if they are to be involved).DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I suggest letting arbcom take their time. If one is inclined there is a ton of background reading on this issue in ANI archives alone, and it is likely difficult for them to agree on bounds for the case. Arbcom is smart enough to see goading for what it is, and it should be pointed out in the evidence section which will open after they move forward with the case. Dialectric (talk) 16:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Again agree, Dialectric. Just like some people in real life, certain editors are hostile and should be avoided if possible, or accorded the minimum polite response when needful. Mind you, I'm not always able to take my own advice. Jusdafax 22:28, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I do feel a climate of fear. People constantly tell me things like "You're about to go off a cliff" and "That's just another nail in your coffin" on a regular basis. An admin, Robert McClenon, just added a statement in the ArbCom pending case, in which he referred essentially to me (given that he wrote it just a few minutes after stating that he thinks i should have a topic ban because i am "disruptive and destructive editor" and edit reason of "weak support to overturn close for subtle reasons, but topic-ban the filer"). Wow. That is an admin taking action against me for requesting a review of closure of an RfC by an admin who has shown bias. This is getting ridiculous. Thank you for being here to bear witness and take part in the struggle to retain some integrity in Wikipedia. SageRad (talk) 02:11, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, he is not an administrator. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:10, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, good. Thank you. It makes me feel a little better, as i hope for more upright behavior from administrators. SageRad (talk) 17:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

I do agree with the "climate of fear" statement, which is evidenced by the fact that PAs and threats, even semi-legal ones, have become the norm in certain topic areas. And no one is calling people out for acting like fascists, when this place actually used to be sane and fun. Even during the extended, in-depth discussions to reverse spindoctoring at the BP article, we never took each other to noticeboards and wouldn't have taken anyone seriou.sy if they had tried this immature 3rr crap and calls for topic bans in an attempt to control content. We had leisurely, mature conversations and over many, many months, brought about a balance to the article that nearly everyone liked. There are no POV pushers active on the BP page now, and there is no gang of anti GMO POV pushers either. But we do have the quackwatchers, who hold a certain POV that makes everything binary; they have the hammer of Truth, and almost everyone other editor here is a nail. For a particular group of people, the noticeboards exist to do their bidding, which is to harass and ultimately ban every editor with whom they disagree. They use the same, tired lines that sound as evolved as a comment from Fox News, yet no one laughs at them or offers a challenge. They have been so successful in driving people away that many editors have admitted to simply remaining in their own little corners of WP, and going nowhere near the agri chem pharma articles. These people are allowed to use biographies of those who have challenged the view of powerful industries as hit pieces, essentially. I've seen bios that read as if the editor was snarling as he wrote it. And I have been threatened, harshly, for saying so. This never used to happen either. We used to have the freedom to speak on talk pages. It is extremely litigious, at least around the GMO and pharma articles. And there is only the ArbCom now to hear our cries for help.

I also agree that it is very obvious a few folks have been trying to create situations that will provide ammo for the upcoming case. All of this is obvious, so it's astounding anyone would try it. petrarchan47คุก 01:24, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to point out this most recent attempt to create drama and to attack me with sanctions so that other editors like Dialectric, Jusdafax, prokaryotes, DrChrissy, Petrarchan47 and others might see these things that are going on. JzG/Guy and Pete/Skyring (what's with these double names?) have come at me with more allegations of me being pretty much the worst thing since moldy bread. It's getting ridiculous. I don't have the time for these things. I have a life, and i edit on Wikipedia in spare time, to help refine the world's knowledge base. I edit in non-controversial areas and it takes 20 to 30 minutes to research a point often, and then make an edit. In a page like Monsanto legal cases, however, i saw these lawsuits in the news, and thought they're relevant to that page, and made an edit, but it took 2 months and 100,000 words to get it to stick. Who has that kind of time. I really think there is a strategic thing going on, wherein some editors are trying to maintain an ideological chokehold through bad dialogue, obstructionism, and effectively filibustering. It's not okay with me. It's very unethical, and it is a huge disservice to editors who are really trying to do their best, and by extension, to the world at large, because it results in systemic bias in some topical areas of Wikipedia. That is not okay, in the world, because it is a political manipulation of the human species by an agenda that coincides with the interests of the chemical industry at large. That doesn't seem like a good thing to me, overall. We want to be fair on Wikipedia, and to have creative tension between people of different tendencies, and some level of contestation is good, but it's become onerous to the point of shutting down Wikipedia's ability to even function in these topical areas, in my assessment. Might as well label some pages "Approved by the chemical industry". I am not making this a battleground. It's a battleground because others are making it so. There is something to be said for working against bias by eager activists, but it's gone far above that to the point of an ideological chokehold by the conservative side. People are not working together well. SageRad (talk) 18:24, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious now, as Petrar states above, and even to those without background info, what's going on. The delay at ArbCom, in my view, is likely due to off-wiki discussion that has revealed differences of opinion on how to handle, and define the parameters of, this important case. There are undoubtedly factors in play we are unaware of, but I remain optimistic that reason will prevail, and see signs of desperation from some of the more hostile elements. As far as extended commentary here, less is more. Best wishes, Jusdafax 20:28, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

@Sagerad, you are spot on, no wonder you have become a target. I've noticed a pattern that those who best encapsulate the issue receive the harshest blows. As for your point about marking articles that are non-neutral and industry-slanted, I was thinking just today that if this problem turns out to be intractable (and frankly, these industries don't tend to loose, this challenge will probably only grow an even more insidious team of editors), the only and obvious solution would be to simply label certain topic areas/articles in some way, separating these from the more encyclopedic articles (i.g., topics that don't involve hugely profitable industries). But to leave the big "Wikipedia" logo on a page which is nothing more than stolen ad space and the result of slick spindoctoring, stains the whole project. petrarchan47คุก 04:23, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47, thank you for the compliment. I do indeed try to encapsulate issues as clearly as possible, so the light of day can work out what should be in the article according to reliable sourcing guidelines. It means a lot to me that you observe me as an even handed editor with an interest only in reality being represented in the encyclopedia. SageRad (talk) 04:37, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Your edits and arguments speak for themselves. I have learned much from you, your integrity and willingness to work hard is rare and appreciated. You have done a tremendous amount of research for this project, and have remained level-headed, mild-mannered and forthright the entire time I've seen your around, despite the obstacles. I'm sorry that you aren't hearing praises from everyone, and that you instead have been met with hostility. I noticed someone called you "dumb" the other day. That was the second time in one day that i observed people from the same group-in-question refer to another editor as "dumb", and frankly it brought tears to my eyes. The other person was a physician who was simply trying to hash things out on a user talk page, and had actually just apologized, and the response he got was 'well you're just dumb'. (I don't quite know how Wikipedia can expect to hold on to good editors when some of the more prolific editors treat people like this.) For what it's worth, i thank you for all your effort. It does make a difference. petrarchan47คุก 05:32, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

On a lighter note, i do participate in all the RfCs that LegoBot informs me of. Do you volunteer to perform RfC assessments? It's fun and easy. You can sign up at the Feedback request service and LegoBot will deliver you messages from people who need an RfC to save them from partisan hell, like we've needed at the Monsanto legal cases article among others in this "controversy cluster". SageRad (talk) 02:18, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Eliot Higgins

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Eliot Higgins. Legobot (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Outing

FYI, the trivial Googling that reveals your off-wiki agenda is not "outing". I know who you are and I have not mentioned your name. Your comment at the arbcom case page is just another data point in your "everyone else is the problem" narrative. I am done trying to help you. Guy (Help!) 12:48, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Sure looks like outing to me by the guideline definition. SageRad (talk) 12:53, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Never needed your "help" -- with friends like this... SageRad (talk) 12:53, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

I've never tried to Google anyone on Wikipedia. I take every person according to their Wikipedia text record alone. SageRad (talk) 12:54, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

And it was not necessary to Google you in order to identify your agenda, but it did reveal the falsity of your claims not to have one. Guy (Help!) 13:00, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Great that JzG has it all figured out. prokaryotes (talk) 13:16, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

This is the very definition and spiriting of what WP:OUTING prohibits, JzG. You think you know who i am and you think you know "my agenda" and yet you do not know these things. This is a space where people are able to be judged by their participation in dialog. If a person shows integrity in dialog, then that is all that matters. You most certainly do not know who i am in any real sense, nor do you know what i stand for and what motivates me. Your bias is showing very strongly here, as you are revealing the caricature of me that you hold in your mind and that you are using in your interactions with me. SageRad (talk) 13:34, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

No, it really isn't, not least because you were the one who linked your on-wiki identity with your off-wiki activism. And frankly your editing behaviour alone is all that's needed anyway. Guy (Help!) 14:06, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Wow, you're really digging way back, and you found a link that i put into Wikispace in connection with another conversation, which connects me with another online identity, but you also admitted to Googling me and mentioned details that you intended to show that you "know who i am" and you are using these things to confirm your caricature of me as an "activist" in a pejorative sense and using this to color my work on Wikipedia as being biased, using identity assumptions from outside of Wikipedia. (And also, to be sure, faulty judgment about what constitutes bias.) So, i continue to maintain that you engaged in an OUTING violation here, and that it shows your bias and your vendetta against me. SageRad (talk) 14:42, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with the details, but find that an admin, who previously blocked an editor, coming to the editor's Talk page and saying "I know who you are...'" to be one of the most remarkable things I have seen in my nearly eight years of editing here. Jusdafax 23:35, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Seconded. SageRad very much wears their POV on their sleeve, so why you felt the need to bring up their offwiki activities as evidence that they're not exactly the world's biggest fan of GMOs is beyond me. The only way in which offsite information would be relevant was if SageRad was coordinating offsite POV pushes in wikipedia. This digging up and trotting out of personal info is completely inappropriate. Brustopher (talk) 14:33, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate that concern from others very much, and the presence of integrity among others is a reassuring thing. I would like to clarify that i am not even "anti-GMO" in the respect that most would understand that term. I'm not against any specific technology. That is the very risk presented when someone tries to profile a person and to then pigeon-hole them in that regard. If you judge by my editing record, it is to ensure integrity in claims on Wikipedia, as well as balance in overall presentation and tone. I am quite aware of moral failings in the history of the chemical industry. This is one of my areas of focus, and this is the one that gets me into controversy, as there seem to be strong agendas operating in this topical area. My focus in this area is simply to keep knowledge that disfavors the industry from disappearing into a memory hole, as seems to happen over time, and to advocate for fairness and balance, and good sourcing for any claims. If PCBs were known to Monsanto to be harmful while the continued to sell them without adequate warnings, then let that be stated on the Wikipedia article. If someone is making false claims to make the industry look bad, then let that be known, as well. Let it all be sourced, and edited with integrity and fairness. Reality is what we want to reflect with Wikipedia. Thank you for your witness and solidarity. SageRad (talk) 15:08, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Your ability to accept comments from those with common ideology while rejecting any comment with which you disagree, is a shining example of how to be a problem editor. Well done. You linked to your off-wiki activities. You did it as a purported source for inserting your own off-wiki spat into a biography. It is relevant because you go well beyond simply being opinionated: you have participated in March Against Monsanto. This is more than mere POV, you are an activist. If you simply stated this on your user page, nothing more would be needed. But you don't. You assert that calling you an activist is an unwarranted personal attack. Well, it's not: you are an anti-Monsanto activist, and this is revealed by an off-wiki trail which runs directly from your own link to your off-wiki comments. You'll note that I am entirely open about who I am and who I work for (not that this stops the cranks from accusing me of being a paid shill for Big Whatever). The whole problem here is that whenever your bias is challenged, your response is essentially to assert that your bias is neutrality and everyone else is biased not you. You claim you have been insulted, but then you state that your edits to Vani Hari (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), which are opposed by every other editor there, represent "integrity" and theirs, by implication, do not. It's the clearest case of m:MPOV I have seen in a long time. Several people have tried to talk you down off the Reichstag, but your response has been to throw dung at them. I have seen this many times before, and it has never ended well for the individual concerned. No doubt you will interpret this as a threat, because you are paranoid. That's your problem alone. It's not a threat, it's a statement of fact: if you do not radically change your behaviour, you will very likely be banned, since that is what usually happens. I don't care if you get banned, you might. That had better be my last word on the topic because frankly I am probably wasting bandwidth by even saying this. Guy (Help!) 15:27, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

You are wrong, sir. Wrong. I've also been to the U.S. House of Representatives, and yet i'm not a Congressman. I've played music for people and yet i'm not a professional musician. I've been to a sweat lodge and yet i'm not a native person of the tribe whose tradition the lodge was following. I've been to a Pentacostal Church and yet i'm not a follower of that religion. This is the very danger of someone finding some detail about an editor's outside life and then making assumptions and operating on the basis of those assumptions. I cannot even talk about anything in order to debunk your assumptions because this is Wikispace, and yet i simply deny the validity of your assumptions. Regarding the David Gorski article, that was months ago, and yet my premise that Gorski does censor people on the basis of disagreement with their agenda is true. He did censor me based on that, although he tried to portray it otherwise, but it happened. He banned me because the evidence that i presented was inconvenient to his story line. You're really toxic, JzG/Guy, and you waste my time. I would really appreciate it if you would keep your judgments about me to yourself, and just think your mistaken thoughts in your own head, and stay away from my talk page, and stop hounding me and following me around in order to oppose my every action in Wikipedia. I'm so done with your poisonous nonsense, and it takes far too much time to debunk every wrong assumption you make. You're really out of line, and behaving in ways don't become an editor let alone an admin. You lack integrity so badly that it's not even worth talking with you. There is no traction for any ideas to be actually discussed, and it is always a battle of rhetoric that ends with no progress. Goodbye. I am done with you. I will not engage with you. I ask you to not engage with me. You're hounding me and outing me and it's not alright. SageRad (talk) 15:38, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of throwing dung… SR, you got banned from the site you yourself linked to for abusing other members. Why continue the behaviour here? --Pete (talk) 19:41, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The whole story is that i posted about glyphosate, got verbally attacked by several members there, and responded to most of the attack responses, and then got banned by Gorski, whereas none of the people who attacked me in horrible ways got banned because they're Gorski's attack piranhas. That's what happened. SageRad (talk) 19:45, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The seems to be a difference of opinion there. Nevertheless, WP:CIVILITY is one of the challenges you need to face up to. How about you strike some of the abusive comments you have made about other editors recently? Your comment above isn't at all helpful, for example. --Pete (talk) 21:07, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I really don't see what you mean, Pete... you just accused me of making abusive comments against other editors, right? Will you please detail what you see as an abusive comment, and how it is so? I don't see what you're referring to. My recent history with you has been heavily peppered with your incivility toward me, down to calling me a cobber and telling me that sunlight doesn't shine out of my ass, literally your words. Go away from from my window, go away from my door. Go. Just go. SageRad (talk) 21:10, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

@Sage, I lived in Australia for 12 years. I have never heard the word "cobber" used in a derogatory way - it is usually a term of endearment. However, I agree its use when discussing where the sun doesn't shine is a rather unusual useage.DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

On Gorski's blog, i posted in a civil manner, and got attacked in extremely uncivil and abusive ways by people there. That is what i refer to above. Similar things do happen here on Wikipedia, however, among groups of editors who seem to be very similar to those on Gorski's blog who have a strong agenda and are willing to use abusive language and emotional attacks in order to "fight" for their agenda -- which is the very opposite of what "skeptical" is supposed to mean, of course. It's more fascism than anything else. SageRad (talk) 21:13, 25 September 2015 (UTC) I find it ironic that you are trying to cite me for WP:CIVILITY, whereas i feel that i've had issues with you around civility. Speak to me with respect and i will speak to you with respect. We can disagree about content and ideas, but there is no need for personal attacks. SageRad (talk) 21:21, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I've been around this place for many years. I think I've got a reasonable handle on how to deal with editors acting in good faith. You, on the other hand, really need to work in a more coöperative manner. This comment is just abusive and many others are similar. Just because somebody differs in their opinion, doesn't mean they are evil. I differ with many editors on many subjects, but I also agree with the same editors on different subjects. You talk of respect, and respect for the views of others is important. This isn't a battleground where one side wins all - it's about NPOV, giving all views due weight. I don't want to sound patronising, but treading carefully is good practice for a newcomer. Jumping straight into Arbcom proceedings with heated diatribes against other editors, well, not so much. The experienced admins who constitute the Arbitration Committee will look at your contribution for evidence of conduct, and things like diffs and blocks and ANI threads are pertinent. Just expressing an opinion against another editor, especially when couched in aggressive and abusive language, doesn't really hold much water, and may well prove counterproductive. You have been given similar advice by others, including those who share many of your opinions. Feel free to disregard me, but listen to those who are genuinely trying to help you and keep you as an ally. In the end, I really don't care about any particular line on any particular article. What really counts with me is the sort of coöperative teamwork that yields the results we see in Wikipedia, which is now one of the most popular and respected information resources on the net. Trust me, the folk on ArbCom have seen it all before, and the way you are going is in the direction of many others before you.--Pete (talk) 01:01, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm simply not reading your comments here anymore. I read the first sentence or two and that was enough to tip me off as to the arrogance of your comment. Get out of here, Pete. Your recent language and conduct toward me are attrocious and you're abusive, and vile. Go ... go... go... away from me. SageRad (talk) 11:53, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Arbcom -- request for updated diffs

I was reading additions to your statement:

Note that Robert McClenon's newfound desire to punish people who speak up is a result of my request for an uninvolved editor to close the RfC that was closed by a biased editor (though JzG disputes such bias, it's clear to me and many others), and constitutes a strong-arming intimidation against me for asking for an unbiased RfC close. More deeply twisted stuff.

I clicked on the link provided and nothing came up, so I think it was archived. Would you mind fixing the diff for me and other readers? I hate digging through archives! Thanks, David Tornheim (talk) 19:37, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, here it is, David Tornheim -- seems to get archived very quickly. I will update my statement at the ArbCom case. SageRad (talk) 19:47, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:2015 Thalys train attack

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:2015 Thalys train attack. Legobot (talk) 00:01, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Guy (Help!) 17:35, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, i see it, and it's complete nonsense, Guy/JzG. You and Pete ought to be absolutely ashamed of yourselves. I hope that unbiased admins actually do take the time to read your allegations and look at the actual records and diffs, for they will see that on the whole, you're really full of it, completely. SageRad (talk) 18:16, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Canvassing

It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on a biased choice of users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence WP:AN/I. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Thank you.

It appears that the above unsigned allegation of canvassing was added by Pete/Skyring and although unspecified, i believe that it refers to my recent comment in which in pinged a few people who have been witness to the ridiculous behavior by Pete/Skyring and JzG/Guy and therefore may be interested to know of the latest round of ridiculous. SageRad (talk) 20:13, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

There is no vote at issue, as that is an admin board and none of the people i pinged were admins, so it's not vote-stacking and it's not an attempt to sway a discussion one way or another. It's just a collegiate discussion about a new level of ridiculous achieved by yourself, Pete, in a discussion about the same topic that was already ongoing. That is not canvassing. "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus." Please let me be. SageRad (talk) 20:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Genetically modified organisms arbitration case opened

You were recently listed as a party to a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms/Evidence. Please add your evidence by October 12, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2015 (UTC) on behalf of L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 20:56, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Please note I have mentioned you at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms, thanks. Jusdafax 22:04, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:African American

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:African American. Legobot (talk) 00:01, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 2

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Thanks. I have addressed these points in the articles now. SageRad (talk) 16:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Hey SageRad, this above is a bot message and not from a live person, so no need to reply. i delete these messages after i am done, with edit summary "done" as note to myself/others who sniff through my talkpage, to keep the page clean. --Wuerzele (talk) 21:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom Workshop

Hi SageRad. I noted your comment responding to my proposed finding about you. I am still looking into this, so please consider it a draft at this point. My proposed finding was based on 2 observations: 1. what I perceive as POINT-y edits re: your off-wiki interactions with Gorski, and 2. frequent LENGTHY explanations and pleas without supporting diffs.

Having said that - I also believe that you have been hounded by certain editors, and in most cases you are not the source of the battleground behavior but have been provoked and demeaned and rudely dismissed. What comes to mind immediately is Skyring's posting of pictures to mock you on an article talk page. You have some GREAT and legitimate points to make in this Arb case, but I would strongly recommend that you cut back on the rhetoric/argument/verbosity and hone in on the proof -- provide the diffs! and be clear about your assertions. Refer to behavior issues without reference to content or idealogical positions. Minor4th 16:23, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Minor4th, thank you for your comments. Indeed, back in May i did do a "pointy" edit and i have admitted that i was wrong here and haven't done that since. It was part of my learning curve. I will also try to be more concise and provide the diffs when i have time. Sometimes i do think general reckoning is useful, though. Thank you again. SageRad (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, I completely agree with Minor4th's comment in the second paragraph /recommendation above. On the 3 Arbcom sites focus only on the behavior of Jytdog, because thats what they decide about, as has been stated numerous times by different people (could you really have overlooked that?) And everywhere else: Do not feed the trolls. Be concise. Actions speak louder than words. I emailed you weeks ago because I was concerned, but maybe you do not check it.

BTW: you (both) did see JzG's original proposal to ban you from "from the topic of genetically modified organisms,broadly construed" for 1 year, ie turning the table on you, singling you out, right? Best,--Wuerzele (talk) 21:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Wuerzele, i did see the proposal to ban me for one year, and i think it's ridiculous. I seriously respect the ideals and guidelines of Wikipedia, and that's what i'm working for. I do have a perspective, but so does everyone, and the tension between perspectives can be fruitful, if people respect each other and work according to the guidelines, and with some generosity of spirit.

I hope this is not all about Jytdog, though. I've found Jytdog to be contentious and seriously problematic, but i've also found many other people to be similarly hard to work with. I hope Jytdog is also not singled out. I hope that we can all work to transcend our issues, and only those who are seriously stubbornly set on being contentious editors with no sign of changing would get topic bans to allow those who are serious to work in a more respectful environment. There is problematic behavior all around, and i am not above it. I've had my moments. In the end, though, i really do see the beauty of working with people of different perspectives, as we do keep a check on each other, as long as we're respectful enough to do so, and not trying to game the system. Thank you for your advice. I do agree that actions speak louder than words, and i've seen your hard work on many articles of late. I appreciate that you put in the hard work to actually improve articles, even the basic housekeeping tasks. SageRad (talk) 22:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, I didnt mean to reply, because its not on top of my priorities in the little time I have to edit WP during the week, but your fast-paced (and perfectly spelled- wow) edits compel me, so i dont get further behind.

• Re: "i think it's ridiculous". --you are a beautiful idealist, I know, and you are very optimistic. I advise you to take it more seriously than ridiculous, though (sorry for unrequested advice), because I want you to survive this war (yes, war) unharmed, without amputations, concussion, PTSD, and with a valid passport to travel all sites, no visa required. you have a very steep learning curve, yes, found out that this place isnt what you thought it was, call it a private shark tank or whatever, despite privileges and ideals that you describe in the next 2 sentences...
• Re:"I seriously respect the ideals and guidelines of Wikipedia, and that's what i'm working for. I do have a perspective, but so does everyone, and the tension between perspectives can be fruitful, if people respect each other and work according to the guidelines, and with some generosity of spirit." -- completely agree, no need to convince me. your conditional sentence is the problem at hand. war is no respectful environment. and about the generosity of spirit you already found out. a fata morgana when you edit with hardliners. now you see it now you dont. you want to believe it, of course.
• Re: "I hope this is not all about Jytdog, though..." --you may, but he's the #1 focus. no need to convince me of all the other problematic editors, including JzG, whom I experienced first-hand at Kevin Folta and where I got my very first block, shaming. Remember this was at the time Arbcom deliberated, and nobody had actually made a case against JzG.- It is not only about jytdog, its about power, in a system that is rigged to benefit interests of power, where COI permeates all levels of wikipedia, (ed, admin, arb and all the respective boards etc). No need to reply, unless you must clarify in 1 sentence. I really dont like many words. take care.--Wuerzele (talk) 18:06, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration temporary injunction for the Genetically modified organisms arbitration case

You are receiving this message because you are a party to the Genetically modified organisms arbitration case. The Arbitration Committee has enacted the following temporary injunction, to expire at the closure of the Genetically modified organisms arbitration case:

1. Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all pages relating to to genetically modified organisms and agricultural biotechnology, including glyphosate, broadly interpreted, for as long as this arbitration case remains open. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.
2. Editors are prohibited from making more than one revert per page per day within the topic area found in part 1 of this injunction, subject to the usual exemptions.

For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply) (via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC))

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration temporary injunction for the Genetically modified organisms arbitration case