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References in the Wehrmachtbericht

What is the current/recent consensus in mentioning "References in the Wehrmachtbericht" as an award or honor? My recent removals from battleship articles [1] [2], one of which included the full German text and English translation, were reverted. Defining this as some sort of honor for a ship seems questionable and may need to be treated differently from individuals, since the Wehrmachtbericht also reported routine events such as returning to port or being sunk in battle. –dlthewave ☎ 02:05, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

G'day Dlthewave. My understanding from a good-faith reading of the current Wehrmachtbericht article is that a German historian, Felix Römer, has stated that such mentions were treated as an award. So at least one historian considers them to be such, and it is therefore reasonable to describe them as such. However, the most recent discussion I can find at the NPOV noticeboard indicates that quoting the entry in full is undue, largely because it, as I understand it, was predominantly a propaganda broadcast. I believe that including the fact that the person, unit or ship was mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht (and how many times, as well as noting that it was a propaganda broadcast when it is introduced), is completely reasonable given what Römer apparently says. It may be that we need to develop a brief guideline dealing with this, as it comes up a lot. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:19, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd say the same as PM, except that describing it inline as a propaganda bulletin sounds like editorialising, unless the source describes it as such -- linking it will allow the interested reader to find out the nature of the publication if they don't know already. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:35, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:48, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

This seems to an American to be the direct equivalent of mentioned in dispatches for Commonwealth countries or of citation dans les ordres (citations in the order of the day) for France and at least Belgium. The article on mentions in dispatches focuses on individual awards, but a number of USAF units were cited in French or Belgian orders of the day during WW I and WW II (2 citations results in the award of the Fourragère, undoubtedly an award), so treating references in the Wehrmachtbericht as an award to a ship would seem to be similar. --Lineagegeek (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• @Peacemaker67: Thanks, that was my understanding of the current practice. Perhaps someone with access to full Wehrmachtbericht transcripts or the Römer source can confirm whether the entire broadcast was dedicated to honoring, or if there was a separate portion for more mundane announcements such as a ship returnng to port. –dlthewave ☎ 03:17, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

• MisterBee1966, can you confirm one way or the other please? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:21, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

• sorry I am travelling right now with no access to source. Mutawski and Römer state that units, ships, soldiers were singled out as a military honor and award. To add to that, I think I had sent scans of Römer and the writings of the German Federal Archives (Murawski) to Auntiruth some time agiert. She should be able to confirm my statement here.MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:38, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• No rush, just worth knowing. My understanding is that they were basically a summary of the day's military events from the German perspective, with ships, individuals and units that had done notable things highlighted at the relevant point of the broadcast. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:10, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• Pinging Auntieruth55 re the above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:11, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• This has also been discussed on the talk page of the Wehrmachtbericht article, which seemed to conclude that it is considered propaganda and not an award or equivalent to MiD. Pinging K.e.coffman as he was the one to bring the article to GA and might have something to add to the discussion. My own opinion is that even if one historian considers it an award, that isn't sufficient to treat it as such for Wikipedia purposes, particularly if other historians have concluded that it's propaganda. Catrìona (talk) 01:49, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Felix Römer and Sönke Neitzel

@Catrìona: thank you for the ping. There are a few related issues here. In the case of the Ernst Lindemann article, the Wehrmachtbericht is used as a source about itself. All of the mentions are cited to the Wehrmachtberichte; this raises issues of due weight.

This edit summary ("see Felix Römer and Söhnke Neitzel, a reference was an award") appears to be at least partially incorrect. I assume MisterBee1966 meant Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing, and Dying when he referred to Neitzel (with co-author Harald Welzer), as MB had added similar material to the Wehrmachtbericht article: diff. Page 78 of the German edition appears to roughly correspond to pages 39–40 in the English edition, in the section "Frame of Reference: War". There, the authors cite "Wehrmacht reports" (note 71, p. 360) to discuss the tone of the reports and how it reflected the "German military canon's orientation around classical martial virtues".

Neitzel & Welzer do not refer to the report as an award or a commendation on pp. 39–40. I do not see in the English edition's surrounding pages anything of this nature, as inserted by MB: The named reference in Wehrmachtbericht lead to the Honor Roll of the Army, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, where soldiers who had performed acts of exceptional military valor, were listed. I would be curious to see what specifically Römer says about the Wehrmachtbericht, as, in my experience, the interpretation of Soldaten in this regard is WP:SYNTH. K.e.coffman (talk) 16:41, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

i see that it has been recently edited...with (some) paragraph(s) removed. not sure if we should delete before we decide.auntieruth (talk) 19:12, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Rather than making assumptions, perhaps we should AGF until MB can provide a quote from the reference in question. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:24, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @Peacemaker67: for waiting. The relevant German quote is taken from the book by Neitzel, Sönke; Welzer, Harald (2011). Soldaten: Protokolle vom Kämpfen, Töten und Sterben [Soldiers: On Fighting, Killing and Dying] (in German). Frankfurt am Main, Germany: S. Fischer Verlag. ISBN 978-3-10-089434-2. On page 78, the authors state the following "Neben dem Eisernen Kreuz und seinen verschiedenen Stufen wurden von Hitler und der Führung der Teilstreitkräfte bald weitere Tapferkeitsauszeichnungen geschaffen - so das Deutsche Kreuz in Gold, das im September 1941 gestiftet wurde, um eine Auszeichnung zur Verfügung zu haben, die zwischen dem Ritterkreuz und dem EK I angesiedelt war. Zudem gab es die Möglichkeit, Soldaten, die außergewöhnliche Taten vollbracht hatten, namentlich im Wehrmachtbericht zu nennen. Daraus erwuchs dann der Gedanke, ein besonderes Ehrenblatt des Heeres, eine Ehrentafel der Kriegsmarine und ein Ehrenblatt der Luftwaffe zu schaffen, wo Soldaten mit hervorstechenden Tapferkeitstaten genannt wurden." Which translates to something like "In addition to the Iron Cross and its various stages, Hitler and the leadership of the armed forces soon created further bravery awards - such as the German Cross in Gold, which was donated in September 1941 to have an award situated between the Knight's Cross and the Iron Cross 1st Class. In addition, there was the prospect to reference soldiers by name, who had done extraordinary deeds, in the Wehrmacht report. From this arose the idea of creating a special honor roll of the army, an honor board of the navy, and an honor sheet of the Luftwaffe, where soldiers with salient bravery were named." Unless this violates copyright regulations, I can send a scan of this page to anyone interested. @Auntieruth55: I believe you speak German, does my translation adequately reflect the German verbiage? Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:41, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966:, yes I think this is reasonable translation. I don't see it as a routine report (ship returns to port, etc.), but rather as an extraordinary report; it may have had routine elements (ships returning to port), but clearly it seems to me that it at least portions of it were used to honor extraordinary acts or accomplishments. I'd paraphrase the translation thus (for inclusion in the article): "In addition to the Iron Cross and its various stages, Hitler and the leadership of the armed forces created additional awards for bravery - such as the German Cross in Gold, which was established in September 1941 to have an award situated between the Knight's Cross and the Iron Cross 1st Class. In addition, the Wehrmacht report also allowed the possibility to reference, by name, soldiers who had accomplished extraordinary deeds. From this arose the idea of creating a special honor roll of the army, an honor board of the navy, and an honor sheet of the Luftwaffe, where soldiers with relevant bravery were named." auntieruth (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

This quote mentions the naming of individual soldiers but it does not support the idea that routine news reports, such as the mention of a ship returning to port or being destroyed in battle, were meant to confer some sort of honor upon the subject. It seems that it is being construed to treat the entire contents of the Wehrmachtbericht as a sort of honor roll. –dlthewave ☎ 15:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks MisterBee1966 that is helpful, and I think clears things up for people. This appears to only refer to people, however, not to mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht being an honour for a ship, for example, to justify a Wehrmachtbericht mention being included in a ship article. I'll note that the Wehrmachtbericht article currently only refers to a mention being an honour for people, not ships, units, air wings etc. Is there a reliable source for the latter being the case? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:39, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Peacemaker67, you are correct, to address your last question we have to look into another source. The book by Murawski, Erich (1962). Schriften des Bundesarchivs—Der deutsche Wehrmachtbericht 1939 – 1945, vom 1.7.1944 bis zum 9.5.1945 [Writings of the German Federal Archives—The German Wehrmacht Report 1939 – 1945, from 1 July 1944 to 9 May 1945] (in German) (2nd ed.). Boppoard am Rhein, Germany: Harald Boldt Verlag. OCLC 906100905 discusses this in section "Der Inhalt des Wehrmachtbericht" [The Content of the Wehrmachtbericht] (pages 67 to 102), in particular pages 68 and 69 are of relevance here. On page 68, a numbered list gives an overview of the content. With respect to the Kriegsmarine, item #2 "Seekrieg (auf und unter dem Wasser und aus der Luft) auf allen Meeren" [War at Sea (surfaced and submerged and from the air) on every ocean] sums it up. A quote from page 87 "...ehrenvolle Nennung von Einzelkämpfern und Einheiten..." [...honorary named references of single combatants and units..."], on page 88–89 "Die ehrenvolle Erwähnung im Wehrmachtbericht wurde allgemein mit Recht als eine besondere Auszeichnung empfunden" [The honorary named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht Report was universally and rightly regarded as a special distinction]. Again, unless this violates copyright regulations, I can send a scan of this page to anyone interested. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Given he himself was a leading propagandist for Nazi Germany, bias is to be expected in how Murawski describes the Wehrmachtbericht. This appears to be underscored by criticism levelled at his book on the Wehrmachtbericht (from the de article) that he approached his subject in an "uncritical" way. Is that a correct translation? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:08, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that is a fair summary Peacemaker67. The criticism was expressed by Daniel Uziel. Are you saying that "uncritical" equates to "unreliable"? Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:32, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Not unless there were aspects of WP:RS that weren't met, and I don't know anything about Harald Boldt Verlag. What I would say is that he needs to be treated as a WP:BIASED source, so it probably is appropriate to use WP:INTEXT attribution for his opinion about the Wehrmachtbericht. Along the lines of "According to former Wehrmacht propaganda officer and later German Federal Archives archivist (or some similar description) Erich Murawski...". Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:50, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

"The honorable mention in the Wehrmachtbericht (...) as a special award" seems to be more appropriate than "The honorary named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht (...) as a special distinction" here. Alexpl (talk) 10:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

In a military context, "award" usually means you were physically given something (usually something to wear), which I don't believe applies here. I agree that "mention" is a good way to describe it though. I suggest "a mention of a person, ship or unit in the Wehrmachtbericht was considered a special distinction". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

It is worth noting that there is an English edition of Neitzel/Welzer: Soldaten - On Fighting, Killing and Dying: The Secret Second World War Tapes, published by Simon & Schuster in 2012. The translation is by Jefferson Chase. That particular paragraph that MisterBee1966 has quoted is only to be found in the German edition. It is omitted in the Englisch edition. Besides, as Neitzel/Welzer also make clear in their discussion, awards "brought social prestige and created intentional social pressure. [...] Nazi propaganda constantly featured the bearers of awards for extraordinary bravery, and Goebbels made a handful of them into full-fledged media stars. [...] The symbolism of and policies with which awards were bestowed were designed to create a sense of social acknowledgment, and this anchored military values deep within soldiers’ frames of reference." So simply to speak of a mention in the Wehrmachtbericht as being "an honour" tells less than half of the story. --Assayer (talk) 12:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Assayer, I agree to your statement. The discussion originated in the question on whether a "named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht" was an award/distinction held in high esteem or not. I believe the various authors/historians confirm that a "named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht" indeed was an award, with all the consequences you mentioned, which also should be addressed in the article. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:30, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I think that the repeated discussion about whether this was an award or not jumps too short, because it touches upon the issue of propaganda. Particularly in the case of Lindemann Holger Afflerbach's "Mit wehender Fahne untergehen" (VfZ49/2001 [3]) would provide some much needed context. (I mentioned that, e.g., during the recent arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort/Evidence#Evidence presented by Assayer). Other than that it should be clear, that the Wehrmachtbericht was not simply an "information bulletin", but war propaganda. Generally speaking I would argue, if those kinds of awards are not covered by RS, by which I do not mean militaria like KC recipients' dictionaries (Scherzer, Fellgiebel, Thomas/Wegmann, Dörr and so forth), there is no particular need to include them in a Wikipedia article.----Assayer (talk) 15:03, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again, we have Römer, Neitzel, Welzer and Murawski referring to the "named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht" as an award and/or distinction, while you argue, for all the arguments mentioned, it does not fall into that category. Question, in order to avoid WP:SYNTH, do we require a reliable source to support this point of view? MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:30, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

That’s a misrepresentation of my argument. I consider the question ‘’award or not award’’ to be futile. If this “culture of military medals” is not put into context, “the German military canon’s orientation around classical martial virtues” (Neitzel/Welzer) is merely reproduced. More than 2,000 German sailors lost their lives under Lindemann’s command in a fight without any chance of inflicting damage on the enemy. In that perspective, Lindemann’s posthumous mention is not really notable. The literature on the Bismarck is sizable. How many reliable sources refer to Lindemann's mentioning in the Wehrmachtbericht, let alone all the details concerning his Knight's Cross?--Assayer (talk) 23:19, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Some factual corrections are required: Lindemann was not in command and the German (official) historians have briefly assessed Admiral Lütjen's decision to fight to the death and their remarks are summarised in his article. The conclusion was and is that selling oneself dearly had military value. I seem to remember HMS Rodney escaped one of Bismarck's salvos by a very small margin. Given Lindemann's influence on the entire operation was reduced by the overpowering command style of Lutjens, I struggle to see why Lindemann was awarded the Knight's Cross at all. Dapi89 (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Ships

Getting back to my original question about the ships: Based on this discussion, the cruiser Deutschland's mention clearly amounts to a routine report and should not be mentioned as an honor in the article. Battleship Bismarck's three mentions (an "account of the Battle of the Denmark Strait", "a brief account of the ship's destruction" and "an exaggerated claim that Bismarck had sunk a British destroyer and shot down five aircraft") are a bit more open to interpretation. Do we have a non-OR way of distinguishing which mentions might be considered honors and which are routine reports, preferably using secondary sources? –dlthewave ☎ 18:17, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Just applying a common sense criteria about it containing some sort of element of praise in the entry seems the way to go. Saying that the ship had been conducting a trade war in the Atlantic and has now come home is pretty routine and non-praiseworthy to me. If it said what tonnage she had sunk, that would be a different matter. The entry for Lutzow says that the ship bravely supported a garrison, so that would be appropriate in my view. It is a matter of weight. Personally I'm not sure about whether the actual transcripts are undue or whether just saying that there was a mention, the date, and what for, would be a better approach. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

The Wehrmachtbericht contains a registry for all named references. This registry is divided into multiple sections. The first, for single combatants and lists name, rank and date. The second, for units beginning with the Army (Heer) listing the unit (division, regiment, battalion, etc.) and date, the Navy (Kriegsmarine) listing (ship, u-boat, flotilla, etc.) and date, the Air Force (Luftwaffe) listing (wings, groups, air corps, etc.) and date, and Waffen-SS listing (division, regiment, batallion, etc.) and date. I was under the impression that it is community consensus to not include the original transcript of the Wehrmachtbericht, and to limit the information on Wikipedia to date and fact that a person/unit had been given this award/distinction. In consequence, I would expect to find an entry on the cruiser Deutschland/Lützow article that the ship was named in the Wehrmachtbericht on 25 January 1940 and 9 February 1945, avoiding any dispute over how and why. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:51, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. I think there has to be a praiseworthy reason for the mention for it to be included. I don't see that for Deutschland because that is basically the same as a BBC News report of a ship returning to port, but I do for Lützow, as it actually praises something about what the ship did. Surely, to be treated as meritorious thing, there must be something meritorious about it, not just returning from a mission, without anything said about success. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:59, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Coming late to this. I think it should be all or nothing (and I favour not at all). To only include some we get into what were significant mentions and which were routine, in the example given Deutschland's raiding cruise was successful and presumably the successes were not mentioned due to secrecy reasons, conversely I don't see Lutzow's shore bombardment of any special significance at all Lyndaship (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Disagree. There is nothing in the transcript that indicates that Deutschland's cruise was successful. Assuming that its success was not mentioned for secrecy reasons is OR, whereas Lutzow's shore bombardment is clearly being praised in the transcript. Chalk and cheese. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:31, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

That's why I said all or none of the mentions in Wehrmachtbericht should be considered for inclusion. Then there's no need to make a judgment if that mention is delicious natural organic cheddar or cruddy factory processed cheese Lyndaship (talk) 18:42, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Unless MisterBee1966 can help us find the registry that specifically lists "honorary" references, any attempt to sort them ourselves would be OR. I support the "nothing" approach unless an honorary mention is covered by a secondary source. If we decide to list all of the references, it should not be in an honors/awards section. –dlthewave ☎ 18:22, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I can scan the registry (soldiers, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe and Waffen-SS) and send to anyone interested. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

If an incident or (honorary) mention was notable, it would be covered in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, wouldn't it? There should be no need to turn to the unreliable Wehrmachtbericht in the first place, even if you merely skim the register.--Assayer (talk) 20:00, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

That is not what we are talking about here, and you are once again misusing the term "notability", which is about whether we have an article on a subject, not what detail should be included in an article. We are talking about the mentions being a distinction. Given this has been an issue for some time, I think we need some proposals to decide what to do regarding these mentions. Something along the lines of inclusion (with parameters) or non-inclusion. I'll put something together. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

• Yes but info that are trivial or indiscriminate do not belong per WP:What Wikipedia is not, e.g. WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. These might be of some help. -Fnlayson (talk) 01:48, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at WT:Ships#Non-notable crew touching on similar issues. fyi - wolf 01:59, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd be cautious of relying on the language qua language. Given the way USN sub patrol reports were endorsed, "bravely defending a garrison" could be standing offshore watching them be shelled into oblivion, or overrun. (Patrol reports were full of "exceptional"s & "extraordinary"s that are cringe-worthy as historiography; "outstanding" effectively has the value of "yes".) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura}

Indeed, even if I did not use the term "notable" in line with its strict Wikipedian definition, which is not the same as a "misuse", I might as well refer to WP:NOTEVERYTHING to make my point.--Assayer (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposals regarding mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht

In the hope of establishing a consensus about what if anything should be done regarding mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht, here are a couple of proposals regarding their handling. These are just my crack at the two positions that seem common in the above discussion, feel free to add to them, modify the wording, or propose additional ones. I have concentrated on the issue of WP:UNDUE as it seems to me that WP:NPOV is the most relevant policy, but if you feel that WP:VERIFY or WP:OR are relevant, please raise this and explain how you see them impacting on this issue. As this is basically a yes/no question, I've drafted it for simple approval voting. To make it easier to assess consensus, please keep the discussion in the discussion subsections for each proposal. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:44, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

May I suggest making this an RfC? As it stands now, the outcome will be the non-binding opinion of a Wikiproject and not full community consensus. –dlthewave ☎ 21:41, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Sure. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:14, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I've advertised this to WikiProjects Ships, Aviation, History and Germany. Feel free to advertise anywhere else that might be appropriate. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:23, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

A third option seems to arise from the discussion above: that mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht only be noted where a RS focused on the person/unit specifically says that this was done as honour. This would solve the problem of routine reports being noted (I imagine that some units and senior officers were frequently mentioned), as well as avoiding the risk of undue weight being placed on this propaganda broadcast. I've WP:BOLDly added this as the new option 2 (as it seems to be a half-way point between the others), which I hope is OK. Nick-D (talk) 04:31, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

That's great Nick, thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

#1 Inclusion in relevant articles with caveats

That mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht may be included in relevant articles on the basis that such a mention was a distinction for people within the Wehrmacht, per the Felix Römer source above, and a distinction for units, ships etc per the Erich Murawski source (which is biased and should be treated as such). Any mentions should be in summary form, including only the date of the broadcast and a brief summary of what was said about the subject of the mention, and should also mention that the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast. Full transcripts and translations should not be included, as there is an existing consensus that this would be giving them undue weight given the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast.

Support (#1)

# auntieruth (talk) 19:31, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

1. Dapi89 (talk) 20:49, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (#1)

• Suggestion: We are limited to what we can say by the sources, but if the vote is in favour of full-inclusion of the German text, and if possible, I'd prefer a standard description advising the reader of what they are reading. The reports contain propaganda certainly, and inaccurate information, whether deliberately or in genuine error, but also the point of the reports were to improve German morale and increase fanaticism in the Wehrmacht, and I think that should be driven home. Dapi89 (talk) 20:58, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

#2 Inclusion in relevant articles when highlighted by a reliable source

That mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht may be included in relevant articles when a reliable source which is focused on the relevant person or unit specifically states that this mention in the Wehrmachtbericht was an honour.

As in option 1, any mentions should be in summary form, including only the date of the broadcast and a brief summary of what was said about the subject of the mention, and should also mention that the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast. Full transcripts and translations should not be included, as there is an existing consensus that this would be giving them undue weight given the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast.

Support (#2)

1. Nick-D (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
2. dlthewave talk 05:40, 21 October 2018 (UTC) (changed to #3)
3. I am giving my tentative support to this. Minimal usage of Nazi propaganda, barring no usage, is the best. –Vami♜_IV♠ 05:49, 21 October 2018
4. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
5. Lyndaship (talk) 12:06, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
6. this option appeared after i had tegistered support for first one. this is a much better choice. auntieruth (talk) 01:13, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
7. Support this - under the caveat that this should be strong source (e.g. see WP:HISTRS), and that if this a widely covered individual/ship/unit - that per WP:DUE a multitude of such sources should exist - e.g. if this were say, Rommel, one would need to show a significant body of serious work referring to this - as opposed to a marginal notability article in which a single HISTRS source would suffice for DUE. Icewhiz (talk) 06:41, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
8. Generally, if something is covered by a reliable source, it should be included. Parsecboy (talk) 12:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
9. - wolf 23:56, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (#2)

In my experience, the Wehrmachtbericht is rarely raised in the general literature on World War II and the Germany military's role in the war. Only specialised, and often fairly obscure, works ever raise the prospect of mentions in it being noteworthy for named units or individuals (vastly more weight is placed on medals and tributes from respected figures). As such, I think that mentions should only be noted when a reliable source which is focused on the individual or unit (and not a general listing of Wehrmachtbericht mentions, Nazi German era military honours or similar) raises the mention and states that it was intended as some kind of honour. I think that this goes to the points raised in the discussion above as well as earlier discussions about differing views put forward by historians, and the prominence and reliability of sources. Nick-D (talk) 05:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I tend to agree with this. It seems pretty obscure, and I haven't seen mention of it outside WP, so I don't think this proposal will support inclusion on a lot of articles. Where a reliable source mentions it, for example in a biographical sketch of an officer or soldier, or in a section of a book about German ships or a particular air group, I see no reason why a brief summary could not be included, so long as it is clear that the Wehrmachtbericht was the daily Wehrmacht propaganda broadcast. I am opposed to a blanket ban, as that smacks of censorship. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

What would be the ramifications of this proposal? Comparing the German Wikipedia to the English Wikipedia, I see that in many instances the current approach of listing occurrences and date is very comparable, see de:Werner Mölders versus en:Werner Mölders, de:Adolf Galland versus en:Adolf Galland, compare also the German and English articles of Erich Hartmann, Günther Rall. MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:58, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966: since no one commented, I'll respond. My understanding that these mentions would come out under this proposal, as being cited to the Wehrmachtberichte themselves. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:12, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Initially favouring no mention as it is clearly propaganda and I feel the RS claiming it was an honour is insufficient to prove that it was I am won over to the above proposal on the grounds that we shouldn't censor and it makes readers aware that the Wehrmachtbericht existed Lyndaship (talk) 12:10, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

The problem is: How do we define RS (see the point also raised by K.e.coffman below)? Some will argue, and have done so in the past, that specialised and obscure literature, even memoirs and the Wehrmachtbericht itself, are RS when it comes to the "fact" that someone has been mentioned. What Nick-D seems to have in mind, and maybe Peacemaker as well, is probably closer to WP:HSC. Anyway, that should be clarified. Furthermore, historical scholarship may mention that someone was mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht, but does not provide a summary of what was said. How will you come up with such a summary? That amounts to OR by Wikipedians who will turn to the Wehrmachtbericht themselves. Does this proposal also affect the listing of the Wehrmachtbericht mentions under Awards or is it confined to the possible inclusion in the main text? By including a "brief summary" the Wehrmachtbericht is also highlighted in comparison to other awards like the Knight's Cross. By the same logic one could argue that we need brief summaries of why the KC was awarded and so forth. Two more things are worth noting: First, neither Felix Römer nor Neitzel/Welzer are writing biographies of individual soldiers. It seems quite odd to use them as references to legitimize the inclusion of the Wehrmachtbericht in individual biographies. Second, in this whole context it seems odd to speak of "censorship", not at least because the Wehrmachtbericht itself was heavily censored.--Assayer (talk) 12:54, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

My intent with specifying that reliable sources focused on the individual/unit are needed was to prevent circular referencing to directory-style listings and the Wehrmachtbericht itself. If such a RS includes reference to a mention and states that it was an honour, I don't see why there's a need to quibble over it? Nick-D (talk) 08:54, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

That was also my understanding of the proposal, and given Nick is its proponent, I fail to see why this discussion would not be taken into account as part of the consensus, assuming this proposal was the consensus position. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:57, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've never seen Die Deutschen Kriegsschiffe, which has been my primary source in writing articles on German warships, mention the Wehrmachtbericht. Their histories of ships are generally fairly detailed, and if they didn't see fit to include the reports, I would be hard pressed to argue that they should be mentioned. Of course this question extends (significantly) beyond just warships, but that's my 2 cents. Parsecboy (talk) 12:12, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate the intention. But what are RS in this context? A productive author like Ralf Schumann, to name only but one example, publishing with VDM Heinz Nickel, certainly never misses such a mention. Günter Wegmann not only authored several comprehensive dictionaries of KC recipients, but also edited a complete edition of the Wehrmachtbericht. Their publications are used in several articles. And who will provide the brief summary of what was said about the subject of the mention, if it is not provided by a secondary source? Given how controversial discussions about the reliability of sources have been in the past, this proposal potentially supports inclusion on a lot of articles.--Assayer (talk) 14:26, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

For clarity, what I am suggesting is that an article on a fighter pilot might say "On 21 May 1941, Schmidt was mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht, the daily Wehrmacht propaganda broadcast, to mark his 50th aerial victory." A brief summary in sentence fragment form would be all that is needed, ie "to mark his 50th aerial victory". Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: do you have an RS in mind from which such material could be sourced? --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:15, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

No. I'm not a specialist in this area, so I don't have such a source in mind. But I don't think it is impossible that such a source exists, so believe we should provide for that eventuality. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:42, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

We shouldn't be providing for eventualities, though. The outcome of this discussion (as with any) should based on the available sources which have been brought forth. If the body of published material changes, or if editors discover forgotten sources, then it would be appropriate to revisit. –dlthewave ☎ 13:08, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I completely disagree with your premise. We cannot possibly know all the reliable sources that either exist now or may exist. The intention here is to provide general guidance on what would be acceptable if the stated conditions were met. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:54, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

• @Parsecboy: Generally, if something is covered by a reliable source, it should be included. Actually, it would also need to meet the requirements of WP:WEIGHT. Simply being covered by a reliable source is not sufficient grounds for inclusion anywhere on Wikipedia. –dlthewave ☎ 03:36, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Nonsense. WEIGHT concerns itself with viewpoints on controversial topics (i.e., like whether climate change is happening or not, and how that should be presented in an article). It has nothing to do with whether a specific factoid like the Wehrmachtbericht should be included. The only place where WEIGHT has any relevance here is in discussing how the Wehrmachtbericht should be presented (i.e., as a press communique, a propaganda broadcast, etc.). Parsecboy (talk) 09:42, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. That adds too much weight to a mention in the Wehrmachtbericht as an award and may lead to repetetive prose (I am thinking, e.g., of Werner Moelders). And, yes, I do consider awards or, more precisely, the way awards are presented in military biographies to be controversial. If it was not controversial among Wikipedia editors, we would not have this discussion. WP:NOTEVERYTHING does not confine itself to controversial topics, however, neither does WP:DUE. Instead it is the prominence of the Wehrmachtbericht in published, reliable sources on the topic in question which counts as decisive.--Assayer (talk) 19:09, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Now I'm more confused. If an action out of which the actor received a medal or some kind of commendation is mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht, can the WB be used (or not) in the discussion of/description of that action? auntieruth (talk) 19:41, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Auntieruth55. What we are saying here is that if a mention in the Wehrmachtbericht is referred to by a reliable source that is focussed on the subject of the article, for example a book about a Gruppe or a biography of an individual pilot, then a brief summary of the mention in the Wehrmachtbericht can be included in the relevant article. If the only reference to the mention is in the Wehrmachtbericht itself (or in a book which essentially is an edited collection of Wehrmachtbericht reports), then it would not be included in the article. Nick-D will correct me if I have misrepresented his proposal. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:54, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's what my intention was. The Wehrmachtbericht is obviously not a reliable source, and my proposal here is that for any mentions in it to be considered worth including in an article, a reliable source which is focused on the subject of that article (for instance, a book or a chapter on the topic) needs to note the mention and state it was intended as an honour. Nick-D (talk) 07:07, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

In July 2016, Zero0000 referred to WP:ABOUTSELF and stated "that sources can be used about their own content, even if they are unreliable about things other than their own content. In case my intention isn't clear, two examples. (1) "Generalleutnant Schultz captured Stalingrad single-handedly" (source Wehrmachtbericht by date) is not acceptable since Wehrmachtbericht is not a reliable source. (2) "The Nazi propaganda communique Wehrmachtbericht claimed that Generalleutnant Schultz had captured Stalingrad single-handedly." (source Wehrmachtbericht by date) is 100% within the rules if it can be verified that Wehrmachtbericht indeed claimed that. It would be better if (2) could be cited to a secondary source, but there is no rule against citing primary sources directly." Is this still a valid view? Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

It is still my view. Of course the fact that something is allowed doesn't imply that it must be done. The degree to which the fact/claim is historically significant should be taken into account as well. Zero^talk 12:34, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Frankly this is an odd reading of WP:ABOUTSELF, and is more relevant to WP:BIASED which suggests in-text attribution. The way I read WP:ABOUTSELF is that the Wehrmachtbericht can only be used as a source of information about itself, in the Wehrmachtbericht article, but not about third parties mentioned in it such as a person/ship/Gruppe etc, ie in the WB article it can be used to state that the WB was issued every day from X date to X date, who authorised it on any particular day, stuff like that. I am a bit limited here, as I don't know exactly what information is included in each whole broadcast transcript in order to provide other examples. Basic facts about the Wehrmachtbericht itself though, not its content about third persons. That is how I have always considered that policy to operate ever since I started on WP, and I believe that is the consensus on how it is interpreted. If, for example, the source was a self-published blog by a non-expert, you could use it to cite that the blog existed, that there was an blog entry on a particular day, who the author of the entry purportedly was, what the blogger claimed their qualifications were, but you couldn't use it to cite what the blog said about another person or thing (ie a third person). Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:33, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Sample sources?

• It would be helpful to see a few samples of reliable sources that cover Wehrmachtbericht as an honour for individual named soldiers. For background, please see the comments above: [4] & [5].

If we move from the abstract (a reliable source, a biography of an individual pilot) to the concrete (specific sources), we’ll be able to evaluate them before the discussion concludes. This will help avoid debates and confusion in the future.-- K.e.coffman (talk) 16:05, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that is necessary or even desirable. We cannot exhaust all the possible sources for such mentions here. This is a general discussion to achieve a consensus about under what circumstances mentions in the WB could be included, not about whether it can be included on a specific article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:25, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The subject of "mentioning in the Wehrmachtbericht" in re: specific soldiers has received no attention from reliable secondary sources that I could find. The Wehrmachtbericht itself is discussed in RS as a component of Nazi war-time propaganda and for its role in the myth of the clean Wehrmacht. The sources that discuss the Wehrmachtberich mentions as a commendation are hobbyist and / or fringe (read, neo-Nazi) publications, such as:

This feat earned him his third reference in the Wehrmachtbericht on 27 March 1942. In July 1942 he was one of the leading German night fighter aces with 37 aerial victories.

References

Via Egmont Prinz zur Lippe-Weißenfeld article. The source, Helden der Wehrmacht – Unsterbliche deutsche Soldaten ("Heroes of the Wehrmacht – Immortal German soldiers"), has the dubious distinction of being mentioned in Antisemitism Worldwide, 2000/1 alongside such books as "KZ-Lies" and "The Wehrmacht as Liberator". See also: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2018-04-26/Op-ed#Some sources belong in the dustbin of history.

In short, there's been no attention from RS to the topic of Wehrmachtbericht as a military commendation for individual soldiers (to my knowledge). None have been presented in this discussion either, including by proponents, Auntieruth55 and MisterBee1966. In this case, proposal #2 is functionally equivalent to #3 below, and we might as well acknowledge this lack of RS. This would help avoid continued confusion and advocacy on behalf of such mentions/sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:19, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

"To your knowledge". Precisely. You apparently do not know of any, but that does not mean they don't exist. Have you read every book or chapter on every notable person ever mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht? Clearly not. We are establishing a principle here which would apply where the conditions are met, we're not going through every possible source here to see if they mention it and then having detailed arguments about each occasion before this RfC is closed. That is a discussion that will occur on each individual article when a source is produced that does refer to these mentions in the way outlined in proposal #2. Proposals #2 and #3 are in no way equivalent. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:37, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I based my comment on reading and editing Wiki pages of highly-decorated WWII German personnel. Wehrmachtbericht mentions were to be found in apologist, revisionist, National Socialist, phaleristics, militaria, and / or Landser-pulp literature, with some of it issued by right-wing and extremist publishers. Such sources used to be acceptable, even in Good & Featured Articles; see for example: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort/Evidence#Dubious, unreliable and primary sources are routinely defended.

I think it's reasonable to request to see sample reliable sources, to make sure that they exist. Peacemaker, you apparently do not know of such sources either; we are in the same boat in this regard. I also note that neither MisterBee1966 nor Auntieruth55 have presented any. Yet, MisterBee is attempting to re-argue a 2016 discussion: [6]. Given past and present advocacy on behalf of such mentions, I'm not convinced that their proponents would drop the stick. Is it perhaps time to acknowledge the reality of the situation? --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:52, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

#3 Non-inclusion

That mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht should not be included in relevant articles, as it is giving them undue weight given the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast.

Support (#3)

1. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:29, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
2. --Assayer (talk) 12:55, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
3. --dlthewave (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
4. --Catrìona (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (#3)

• Avoids POV issues, original research, and indiscriminate amount of information based on Wehrmacht's press releases and unreliable war-time propaganda. I have concerns about Option 2 since it opens the door to arguing about which sources are "reliable". The quality in military history market varies greatly, from books issued by university presses to popular history to hobbyist/militaria publications, all the way to apologist or extremist tracts, such as those issued by the likes of J.J. Fedorowicz Publishing or Nation Europa. Given the past attempts to reintroduce Wehrmachtberichte into Wikipedia, or objections to their removal (see Wehrmachtbericht: Recent developments on my user page), I would favour a "clean break". --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:29, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

It seems that the other proposals have not been thought out well (see my argument above) and will lead to further prolonged discussions, OR and POV issues. --Assayer (talk) 13:02, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

• Even if a few sources do describe a Wehrmachtberichte mention as an honor, this seems to be the WP:FRINGE view. WP:UNDUE requires that we cover viewpoints according to their overall prevalence among reliable sources and this viewpoint currently does not meet that bar. This is not a "ban"; it merely reflects the current body of scholarship, and we can certainly revisit the question if that changes. –dlthewave ☎ 17:19, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
• Reflects what is clearly the mainstream view in most high-quality sources, and sidesteps time-consuming discussion about exactly which sources are reliable, etc. Catrìona (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Recent edits to Content and Notability guides

Both pages have been recently modified to remove “Template:Essay”: [7]; [8]. I believe that these templates should be restored as these pages are each an advice page, not a guideline, which has a specific meaning in WP’s context. Courtesy ping @Hawkeye7:. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:39, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

A more appropriate template would be Template:Wikipedia how-to. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:26, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

If a template must to be added, then "how to" would be the one. These pages are not essays, they are WikiProject content guides. This is an essay. - wolf 02:57, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't believe the Template:Wikipedia how-to to be a suitable option here. Original template included: "This page is an essay on article content. It contains the advice and/or opinions of one or more WikiProjects on how the content policies may be interpreted within their area of interest. This WikiProject advice page..." "WikiProject advice page" linked to Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide#Advice pages, which states:

WikiProject advice can best help editors by providing: subject-specific considerations in applying site-wide standards; links to subject-specific templates; a list of information that editors should consider including in a given type of article... (...) Any advice page that has not been formally approved by the community through the WP:PROPOSAL process has the actual status of an optional essay.

Compare with: Wikipedia:Project namespace#Wikipedia how-to and information pages. --K.e.coffman (talk) 17:22, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the original text was very misleading. What happened was that the creation of guidelines ground to a halt. As a result, many of community's most important guidelines formally lack that status. The term "essay" then became meaningless, as it applied to all sorts of pages with wildly varying statuses. In this case, projects were encouraged to create local guidelines that reflected the consensus in their area of expertise. Our guides went through that WP:PROPOSAL process years ago. As Wolf says, they are not user essays, because they do have formal standing. The template was originally added to facilitate the shortcut links, which are now available with the how-to template. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for that bit of history, Hawkeye. I had wondered what their status was. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd be interested in seeing the past discussions where the two pages went through PROPOSAL and achieved formal standing. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:04, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The difference between the two is explained in WP:HOWTOPAGES:

Informative and instructional pages are typically edited by the community; while not policies or guidelines themselves, they are intended to supplement or clarify Wikipedia guidelines, policies, or other Wikipedia processes and practices that are communal norms. Where essay pages offer advice or opinions through viewpoints, information pages should supplement or clarify technical or factual information about Wikipedia in an impartial way.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:52, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I just had a quick look through the archives, and Kirill Lokshin will no doubt correct me if my summation is incorrect. The style guide was split off from the main Milhist page on 19 September 2007, here. It was then advertised at the Village Pump (policy) and Village Pump (proposals) pages as an addition to the MOS. The relevant Milhist discussion is archived at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 67#Project style guide and MoS. Some non-Milhist editors commented on it as a result. There being no objections to its addition to the MOS, it was accepted and marked as part of the MOS. The notability and content parts of the style guide were split off from the style guide on 31 July 2010 to create Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Notability guide and Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide which can be seen from this. At the time of their creation, they were marked as an "essay on notability" and "content guideline" respectively, per this and this. Obviously they have developed over time, with tweaks here and there to reflect consensus. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:36, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Follow-up

Thank you for the links. I see that the MOS discussion concluded on 10 November 2007: [9]. The content portion was not discussed, while the notability portion was tagged as "essay" in 2008, see here: [10].

This is also not my reading of WP:HOWTOPAGES, as "community" in this case means "Wikipedia community" not "project members":

Informative and instructional pages are typically edited by the community; while not policies or guidelines themselves, they are intended to supplement or clarify Wikipedia guidelines, policies, or other Wikipedia processes and practices that are communal norms.

I thus don't believe that the content and notability guides have formal standing. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, I disagree. They clearly were part of the MOS before they were split off. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

"This is also not my reading of WP:HOWTOPAGES, as "community" in this case means "Wikipedia community" not "project members"" - so, you're saying that Wiki:Project members are not part of the "Wikipedia community"...? - wolf 19:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Although the initial versions [11] [12] of the standalone Content and Notability guides were part of the community-consensus MOS before they were split off, both have undergone significant changes [13] [14] which were never discussed at the community level. This is partly due to the fact that the notability guide was labeled as an essay from the beginning and the content guide lost its guideline tag in 2013 before significant changes were made. A major addition to Notability was developed at the now-defunct Strategy Think Tank ("a central location for various planning and internal improvement activities within the project") and approved at the MILHIST talk page without community-wide input. Changes to the MOS would require community consensus (input from a broad spectrum of editors), not project-level WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. (@Thewolfchild:, members of a Wikiproject are a subset of the Wikipedia community. Their decisions do not constitute Wikipedia community-wide consensus.) –dlthewave ☎ 21:26, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

One more thing: If these pages are accepted as part of the MOS, it would make sense to give them their own Talk pages instead of redirecting to a project page. –dlthewave ☎ 21:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• Reply - @Dlthewave:: "members of a Wikiproject are a subset of the Wikipedia community. Their decisions do not constitute Wikipedia community-wide consensus" - an opinion conveniently supported by having the C&N guides split off from the MOS. - wolf 21:37, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I fail to see what the big issue is here. What is the problem you are trying to solve? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:24, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67:Was this question for Wolf or for me? –dlthewave ☎ 15:18, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Template:Wikiproject Advice

The concern was about the recent changes to both pages: [15]; [16]. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide#Advice pages. The applicable templates would be:

• {{WikiProject notability advice}}
• {{WikiProject content advice}}

To display as:

K.e.coffman (talk) 00:46, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

I would say 'no', based on Hawkeye7's and Peacemaker67's comments. I believe they have sufficiently explained this. But I'm just one person, we should see what others have to say. - wolf 07:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

• "These pages are not essays" is factually wrong. They definitely are essays, of a very particular kind covered by a clear guideline: WP:PROJPAGE. The proper tag for them is {{WikiProject advice}} (there are three variant templates, when applicable, with more specific wording: {{WikiProject style advice}}, {{WikiProject notability advice}}, {{WikiProject content advice}}). They are not {{How to}}s, which are technical and site-wide (non-topical) instructions on how to accomplish something like construct an advanced search or format a wikitable. And, yes, how-tos do indicate a community, not wikiproject, take on how to best do this. I have to be clear that the more strident people from any wikiproject become that their wikiproject advice isn't wikiproject advice, the more power-grabby and policy-clueless (see especially WP:CONLEVEL) it looks, and the clearer it becomes to everyone that these are definitely PROJPAGE essays.

  If someone thinks they should be considered guidelines by the community, that's going to require a WP:VPPRO proposal for each of them. If they were accepted as such, they'd be moved out from under the wikiproject and any wording like "WikiProject Military History says to ..." would be removed, since wikiprojects do not WP:OWN site-wide guidelines. Other copyediting would likely be needed, and some provisions might get axed as not representing site-wide consensus. This process is difficult today (what guidelines do we need that we don't already have?), but not impossible. The process is how we got most of our topically specific notability, naming-convention, and MoS guidelines, and we elevated a topical style PROJPAGE to an MoS guideline only last year (but also deprecated one with {{Historical}} as two-author PoV pushing that everyone ignores). Leave ranty "our way or the highway" stuff at the door, or the proposal will collapse very quickly. It requires compromise and a willingness to accept others' viewpoints.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

  • It seems to me that we haven't kept up with the process for these things since these two pages were hived off the MOS back in 2007. I've changed the templates as advised. I have to make the observation that essays cover a huge range from someone's personal brainfart to pages that condense the considered views of hundreds of editors with specialist knowledge of a subject area over a decade. Having watched the notability talk page for some years, and seen the sorts of utter nonsense that goes on over things like the notability of porn actors, I very much doubt there is any appetite whatsoever to go through a bureaucratic and probably highly agenda-laden process to try to have them formalised as formal community-wide guidelines as such guidelines exist now. Pinging @WP:MILHIST coordinators: that I've done this and made some consequent wording changes on the two pages as well as the front page. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:55, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

  I do not understand why a WP:VPPRO proposal is required for an information page when information pages, like essay pages, have a limited status, as they have not been thoroughly vetted by the community. According to SMcCandlish, pages need to be thoroughly vetted by the community before they can claim that they are not. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:24, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Question/Comment: If the guides were hived off from pages having "full status" and with full community knowledge and consent, were they not created with full status? And, given the knowledge and consent, was not the "community" reasonably obliged to monitor the continued status? Is there not a burden upon the broader community to maintain a watching brief upon them? MOS:CAPS is a subpage of the MOS (as are many such pages). They continue to have full "accreditation" with some riders. Do not these riders apply to MILNG and MILCG etc in a similar way? MILNG is linked from GNG. In itself, this acknowledges status? It would be a different case IMO if these pages (MILNG and MILCG) were created ad hoc and separate from the broader process but it isn't? Am I mising something substantial? Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:33, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Commment: (1) Content and notability guides never had formal standing, as discussed above; (2) The GNG page was linking to MILNG via a template: Template:Notability guide. MILNG had been inappropriately added to the template by Special:Contributions/AyaanLamar ([17]) who was soon after indef-blocked for sockpuppetry. I've removed it. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:07, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

WP:SOLDIER clarification

One of the WP:SOLDIER criteria is "Commanded a substantial body of troops in combat (e.g. a capital ship, a divisional formation or higher, an air group (or US wing), or their historical equivalents)". The article Group (military aviation unit) states that a group is sometimes the size of a UK wing (which apparently does not qualify under SOLDIER) and sometimes much larger; sometimes a group is larger than a wing, sometimes not. In order to be more clear, I suggest clarifying in one of the following ways:

• Wing or group (whichever is larger in that service's system)
• Any air unit larger than X number of squadrons

Any thoughts? Catrìona (talk) 18:34, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I would specify by approx. number of squadrons - would make it easier to handle vs. other systems , e.g, the Soviet model.Icewhiz (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Is there a particular nationality you are looking at, because it varies considerably? I do agree it is a bit Anglo-American-centric at present in this regard, and the added complexity of WWII and post-WWII arrangements doesn't help. What we are talking about here IMO is a modern-day RAF or USN Group, a USAF or USMC Wing, or a formation such as 1 Canadian Air Division or Soviet/Russian Aviation Division. These days, such formations are commonly commanded by an officer in the range of colonel equivalent to one-star general. There are significant exceptions to this in the past though, as WWII Luftwaffe Geschwader (equivalent to an RAF Group or USAAF Wing) could be commanded by a major. In terms of number of squadrons, I would think the minimum would be four (two RAF wings of the minimum two squadrons each), or perhaps six to take it over the likely maximum size of a RAF wing, but of course this would range much higher as well. There is a need to be flexible because of the fact that some RAF Groups/USAAF Wings were small and others were really big. So perhaps an indicative range would be better than a minimum number of squadrons. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:42, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

What prompted me to ask the question was the recent recreation of Einar Axel Malmstrom, with the edit summary "Notabe per WP:MILPERSON #5 356 FG combat command". After checking GBooks, it seems that Malmstrom might meet GNG because he is profiled in the few places as the namesake of Malmstrom Air Force Base. However, it seemed inconsistent to me that Malmstrom would pass WP:SOLDIER but the commander of an RAF fighter wing wouldn't, when USAAF groups were roughly equivalent to RAF wings during World War II. I don't know if there were any RAF wings with six squadrons, but 244 Wing had five squadrons during the Tunisian and Italian campaigns. Catrìona (talk) 10:14, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I might add, that war-time appointments don't necessarily conform to the established rank of an appointment and some consideration may need to be given to individual circumstances. It appears to have been resolved however. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

As we have (and lots of other places have them too) a table of comparative ranks would it not just be easier to use that?Slatersteven (talk) 10:36, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd be careful about using number of squadrons; that would seem to disqualify any CAG. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 19:22, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I thought Carrier Air Groups/Wings included at least four squadrons, even during WWII? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:41, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

You may be right... I'm working of a sense of size, not a sourced number. It made me leery. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@Ian Rose, Nick-D, and Lineagegeek: Before I put a proposal together, just pinging a few more aviation-focussed people for an opinion on whether SOLDIER really needs a tweak here, maybe to provide some more specific guidance for non-Common1ealth-US countries or even some flexible squadron numbers guidance? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:54, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

I think that this terminology has caused a bit of confusion, and the guidance isn't necessary. In UK-style air forces, a 'group' is the most senior type of operational command, and comprises several wings (each with usually 2-4 squadrons). The commanders of groups in combat do generally end up being well known (e.g., all of the World War II-era RAF Fighter Command and Bomber Command group commanders have received significant coverage). USAF-style air forces use the terms in the opposite order - wings are the senior command, and comprise several groups (which sometimes have very few squadrons). A USN Carrier Air Group forms part of a wing, so isn't comparable to a RAF group. And of course there are anomalies - for instance, the World War II-era No. 300 Group RAF is pretty obscure and only comprised a handful of squadrons. RAF/RAAF peacetime group COs are generally pretty obscure, and the same applies to peacetime USAF wing COs. TLDR: I'd suggest removing this text, as I don't think that the guidance is particularly helpful. Nick-D (talk) 07:42, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I think the (US wing) is appropriate, although some explanation beyond the "air group" with its current link might be appropriate. US wings are considered the equivalent of brigades. They mostly call for commanders to be brigadier generals (authorized), but the slots are more frequently filled by colonels. Before 1948, operational wings generally had 2-4 groups assigned, with each group having 3-4 operational squadrons. 1948-1950s and post 1991, wings have three or four groups with only one controlling operational squadrons, since US wings also include support elements for their base. US group command seems too low for presumed notability. Also, should the guideline be clarified as limited to operational groups/wings? USAF has had such organizations as Weather Wings and Communications Divisions. --Lineagegeek (talk) 13:26, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

So, are we saying that the guidance should be reduced rather than expanded? It seems to me that we need to retain some sort of guidance for air units, as they are varied and there is the UK/US reversal of group/wing nomenclature, plus non-Anglo-US structures like air regiments and brigades. Given what has been said, I don't think using a minimum number of squadrons is particularly useful. FWIW, Soviet/Yugoslav and other air forces used regiments, which it seems to me were roughly equivalent to UK wings/US groups and therefore beneath the threshold for assumed notability per SOLDIER, and the Yugoslavs also used brigades (commanded by colonel-equivalents) which seem roughly equivalent to UK groups/US wings, and therefore possibly meet the threshold of SOLDIER. Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:24, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Soviet regiments had about 30 aircraft in World War II in 3-4 squadrons (nominally), so I would agree with PM about notability. Aviation division commanders were generally colonels or major generals, so I would consider those equal to infantry division command for notability. Kges1901 (talk) 12:12, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I haven't been paying much attention to this proposal. We've got a disparity of two grades between army division commanders, who are almost always 2-star generals in the Anglosphere (OF-7 in NATO grades) and commanders of capital ships who are almost universally captains (OF-5 colonel equivalent). If we're going to change the standard to specifically include OF-5 level aviation unit commanders, then I see no reason why we're not including the army equivalent of brigade/regiment commanders. At least in the US most such will have published military biographies, but I'm not at all sure about other militaries.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:27, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

In the Soviet and Soviet satellite militaries both army and aviation divisions were commanded by colonels or major generals, who were OF-5 or OF-6 equivalents. So for such militaries WP:SOLDIER already allows for a smaller equivalent notability than the Anglophone militaries. Kges1901 (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

During WWII, German officers commonly commanded divisions at the rank of Generalmajor and Brigadefuhrer, which were contemporary one-star equivalents, and even at Oberst and Standartenfuhrer (equivalent to colonel) rank. I don't think we are stretching this too far for operational commanders in air forces. We need to take the ship/aircraft into account when determining combat power under the control of a given officer (and how that influences notability). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Proposal

I propose we make a tweak to WP:SOLDIER to say something like:

Commanded a substantial body of troops in combat (e.g. a capital ship, an army division or higher, a Commonwealth air group, United States air wing, Soviet/Russian aviation division, or other historical air formation of equivalent size, generally two levels above a squadron.)

Thoughts/tweaks before I open a survey? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:53, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

That wording looks good to me. Nick-D (talk) 03:47, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, PM67, that looks pretty good. I'd support it. - wolf 07:50, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

@WP:MILHIST coordinators: if you haven't already expressed your opinion, this could do with a look. If you have reservations, I'm keen to hear them before we amend WP:SOLDIER. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:42, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Survey

1. As proposer. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:04, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
2. Support Nick-D (talk) 01:17, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
3. Support Kges1901 (talk) 13:37, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
4. Support.Icewhiz (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
5. Support as the person who raised the issue. Catrìona (talk) 20:50, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
6. Support, after including the wording "..two levels above a squadron". Buckshot06 (talk) 07:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
7. Support Zawed (talk) 07:33, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
8. Support Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
9. Support as per Buckshot06's amendment.
10. Support - wolf 14:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
11. Support - seems fine to me. Parsecboy (talk) 18:21, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
12. Support Arius1998 (talk) 00:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Capture of the Anne

I was thinking about the Capture of the Anne article. It has just been assessed for B-class. Would it go one better at GA? I've not contributed anything to it, but was seeing if it could be a GA? Adamdaley (talk) 03:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Have you got access to the sources? That really is necessary to be able to navigate it through GAN. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:44, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• No I don't have access to the bibliography/references. Adamdaley (talk) 00:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• Then I wouldn't nominate it yourself. Perhaps you could contact the main contributors as suggest it to them? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• Just a question, but shouldn't it be Capture of Anne? (per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships)#Using ship names in articles) - wolf 02:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I would say yes, but I may be a minority (again ;p ). (Terminate "the"s with extreme prejudice.) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 03:38, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

• Hmm... let's try it this way; would anyone here object if were to boldly move the page to remove the "the"...? - wolf 08:24, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I doubt it - why not try it and see? Parsecboy (talk) 18:24, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
    • Y Done. - wolf 23:18, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

...aaannd then it was immediately undone because, according to them; "not what WP:NCS says - go thru WP:RM". Double-yew-tee-depth to that - wolf 01:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

He said "try it and see". You tried, now you see. (Page has been on my watchlist for a long time.) As I said on my talk page, "Capture of Anne" would incomprehensible to most readers without italics. That's a heavy a burden, in my opinion, for italics. "Capture of the Anne", on the other hand, would probably be understood as referring to the capture of a ship even without italics. Srnec (talk) 02:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

"Incomprehensible"...? To "most"? That's a stretch. I think it's a clearly straightforward, and easy to comprehend title for everyone, without that clunky "the" in the middle. I believe most people would see the title and think; "Hm, it seems that someone or something, named "Anne", has apparently been "captured"." Doesn't seem all that difficult. - wolf 06:45, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Notice of Move Request

At Capture of the Anne. See here for discussion. - wolf 02:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Notifying those who commented here; Trekphiler and Parsecboy. - wolf 19:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Infobox pic size question

@Jay D. Easy: Hello everyone, since the infobox and campaignbox changes, a 300px pic in the infobox has stretched it on my Firefox browser and I was advised to try 250px. It works for me but does it spoil things for people using other browsers? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 16:04, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

It's not that boring is it? ;O)Keith-264 (talk) 17:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Proposed article on military caretakers

I'm thinking of creating a short article on military caretaker detachments in general, planning on the title "Caretaker (military)". One issue is that Ordnance sergeant is linked to "caretaker" in a number of articles. However, that article is specific to the US and Confederate armies, and the US Army discontinued the rank of Ordnance Sergeant in 1920, though use of caretaker detachments was common through 1940 or so. An article on the general subject of military caretakers would be more open to including other countries' situations and post-1920 caretaking efforts. Does anyone know of alternate terms for this type of mission or position, as used outside the US? RobDuch (talk) 01:59, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The small teams who maintain the Royal Australian Air Force's base bases are referred to as "caretakers" (e.g. [18] [19], [20]), and I think that the term has historically been used in this context in relation to other Australian military installations (such as coastal batteries and obscure Army depots). "Skeleton crew" can also be used (by the Navy?) in this context. This would be a great topic for an article BTW. Nick-D (talk) 07:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

My grandfather was a civilian "caretaker" at Naval Air Station Bunker Hill after WWII until the Air Force took it over in the 1950s. It was him and 3 or 4 other civilians. He helped build the base and didn't retire until 1972.Pennsy22 (talk) 09:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Nick-D, you may want to have a look at the Corps of Invalids (Great Britain), a body of men who were "too old or wounded to serve in the regular forces" and which looked after British forts and coastal batteries in peacetime during the 18th century. Alansplodge (talk) 12:57, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Very interesting, thanks. I had no idea that unit existed. Nick-D (talk) 10:02, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Corps of Invalids added to the article in my sandbox. Both armies in the American Civil War had the similar Veteran Reserve Corps or equivalent (started as Invalid Corps but that was thought to be demeaning); not adding to caretaker article b/c I'm assuming virtually nothing would be in caretaker status in wartime. RobDuch (talk) 19:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Strikeouts in the Article Alerts page

Hello, I am a loyal follower of the WWII article alerts page. Since the introduction of DYK nominations to that page, the following content is struck out. Is there any way to fix the issue? Catrìona (talk) 22:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Kirill Lokshin, could this be caused by recent changes? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:34, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The problem is Template:Did you know nominations/German torpedo boat T23. The nomination text (which the bot copies) is struck out, and the bot can’t handle that. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 00:38, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Experts needed at AfD

I think people familiar with British military history should have a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Militia and Yeomanry of the British Empire. The article is a mostly unsourced order-of-battle type transferred from a Wikia. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:22, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Ottoman ship "Neire Chefket"

The Times of 11 November 1850 reports the loss of the Ottoman ship "Neire Chefket" at Constantinople on 23 October 1850 due to a fire and explosion in her powder magazine. Vessel reported to be 120 guns, so obviously a major battleship. There were about 200 survivors of the 600 or 700 on board. It is entirely possible that the vessel's name is incorrect. Can anyone identify the ship? Mjroots (talk) 07:38, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

• The York Herald of 16 November 1850 says "The Neiri Shevket, ship of the line, of 120 guns, bearing the flag of the grand admiral, was totaly destroyed by an explosion of its powder-magazine on the 23rd ult." the commodore on board was Vice Admiral Mahmoud Pacha. MilborneOne (talk) 09:44, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

This (probably not reliable) source has it as the second rate Tir-i Sevket. This one as the Nir I Sevket of 96 guns. Both say it was laid down in 1842. - Dumelow (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Wikipedia also goes with Neiri Shevket. Note that Turkish was written in the Arabic alphabet at that time, and so would have had to have been transliterated. We have an article on a chap called Mahmud Shevket Pasha so that spelling seems to be the accepted one. A full and lurid account of the "most dreadful catastrophe... by which a great number of persons were suddenly hurried into eternity" is in The Fireman's Own Book (p, 164) Alansplodge (talk) 13:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Nir i Shevket looks better to my eyes. Will amend entry accordingly. Mjroots (talk) 13:30, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

However, that spelling produces only one Google hit which is the page you have just amended. "Neiri Shevket" has two pages of Google results, admittedly from English language sources, but perhaps Wikipedia:Common names applies here? Alansplodge (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: - I prefer accuracy in these matters. For instance, see the entry for Arkhimed on 21 October 1850 - the ship was named by The Times as "Archimedes". A check of the list of Russian steam frigates reveals her true name. Dumelow's second source seems to be compiled by someone who knows what they are talking about. Should an article ever get written, redirects can be created. Mjroots (talk) 16:44, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled as to why we're not seeing any Turkish language results under that spelling though (or indeed any results at all).... Alansplodge (talk) 17:50, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Searching for "Nir-i-Sevket" gets a nice lot of results Lyndaship (talk) 18:05, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Well done, although again no Turkish language results. Alansplodge (talk) 00:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It is likely that this is the Nir-i Şevket, as "Chefket" is a likely anglicisation of the Turkish name (as is Shevket) and the diacritic is screwing with the results. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:19, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, compare it to Ottoman ironclad Asar-i Şevket, Ottoman ironclad Necm-i Şevket, or Ottoman cruiser Peyk-i Şevket. I had a look in The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828–1923, but the accident isn't mentioned there. Parsecboy (talk) 18:26, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Gascon campaign of 1345

Any ideas why this is not showing on the list of A class articles for review. The sources seem solid and it appeats to be formatted correctly. And suggestions? Gog the Mild (talk) 03:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Looks like you had missed a step in the instructions for requesting a review, it hadn't been added to the list on the assessment page. I have done it now. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 04:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

How embarrassing. Both missing that, and not realising, even after it was obvious that something had gone wrong.  Self-trout Thank you. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:23, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Battle of Cape Gloucester

G'day everyone, I have to go interstate at the end of the week to sort out some things for a sick relative, and will probably be without reliable internet between late on 30 November through to midday on 8 December. I currently have a GA nomination awaiting a review: Battle of Cape Gloucester, which is a co-nom with Hawkeye. I am sorry to ask, but I wonder if I might interest anyone in starting a review before I go? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure, I can do it tomorrow.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

WikiJournal of Humanities published first article

The WikiJournal of Humanities is a free, peer reviewed academic journal which aims to provide a new mechanism for ensuring the accuracy of Wikipedia's humanities, arts and social sciences content. We started it as a way of bridging the Wikipedia-academia gap. It is also part of a WikiJournal User Group along with Wiki.J.Med and Wiki.J.Sci. The journal is still starting out and not yet well known, so we are advertising ourselves to WikiProjects that might be interested.

Editors

• Invite submissions from non-wikipedians
• Coordinate the organisation of external academic peer review
• Format accepted articles
• Promote the journal

Authors

• New Wikipedia articles on topics that don't yet have a Wikipedia page, or only a stub/start
• Existing Wikipedia articles to be externally peer reviewed (analogous to GA / FA review - see submission page)
• Image articles, based around an important images, photographs or summary diagrams

If you want to know more, please see this recent interview with some WikiJournal editors, the journal's About page, or check out a comparison of similar initiatives. If you're interested, please come and discuss the project on the journal's talk page, or the general discussion page for the WikiJournal User group.

As an illustrative example, Wiki.J.Hum published its first article this month!

• Miles, Dudley; et al. (2018). "Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians". WikiJournal of Humanities. 1 (1): 1. doi:10.15347/wjh/2018.001. ISSN 2639-5347.

T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 09:35, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Potentially misnamed person article

Hi all. Could some interested editors check out the problem raised by a new editor at Wikipedia:Teahouse#Editing a heading regarding the naming of Weedon Osborne? Regards SoWhy 06:16, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

If his first name is spelt wrong will they issue a new medal of honor! MilborneOne (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

No. They'll just issue a sticker with the corrected spelling. ;p Vanna White ^{shut up, Pat} 19:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

16 tons

User:FobTown, over the last couple of weeks, has been adding this (or a variation on it) to Tonnage war & refuses to accept he's mistaken. I'm getting tired of rv'g. It doesn't appear to rise to vandalism, exactly. Attention by an admin (or somebody not me, at least) would be appreciated. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 19:08, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Nominations for military historian of the year for 2018 now open!

Military historian of the year 2018

• 
  First place
• 
  Second place
• 
  Third place

As we approach the end of the year, it is time for us to nominate the editors who we believe have made a real difference to the project. As part of the first step to determining this year's "Military Historian of the Year" award, all Milhist editors are invited to nominate those that they feel deserve a nod of appreciation for their hard work over the past 12 months. The nomination process will commence on 00:01 (GMT) on 2 December 2018 and last until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2018. After that a new thread will be created and a voting period of 14 days will commence during which editors will be able to cast their vote for up to three of the nominees. At the end of this period, the top three editors will be awarded the Gold, Silver and Bronze Wiki respectively; all other nominees will receive the WikiProject Barnstar.

Please nominate editors below this line, including links in the nomination statement to the most significant articles/lists/images editors have worked on since 1 January 2018. Please keep nomination statements short and concise; excluding links to the articles/list/images in question, the ideal nomination statement should be about 20 words. Self nominations are frowned upon. Please do not vote until the nominations have been finalized. Thanks, and good luck! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:45, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Nominations

Editors are asked to keep their nominations to 10 editors or less and nominations should be made in the following format:

• [user name]: [reason] ~~~~
• Sturmvogel 66: For his tireless work improving/creating ship articles, such as NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Regina Maria, and countless others. L293D (☎ • ✎) 03:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Gog the Mild: An impressive contribution of original and improved content relating to medieval military history. Recent examples include: Battle of Auberoche, Gascon campaign of 1345 and Siege of Berwick (1333). Also has had the odd foray into other periods, e.g. WWII with Razing of Friesoythe. Zawed (talk) 08:09, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• User:MilHistBot: Its made life just so much easier. So very much easier. And for that it deserves thanks. A lot of it. Viva la bot! TomStar81 (Talk) 13:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Discussion ("Military historian of the year")

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have to oppose Sturmvogel 66's nomination, on procedural and substantive grounds. On the former, I've previously expressed concern about the suitability of the "Military historian of the year" terminology, but perhaps I was not specific enough: Reminder: Military historian of the year 2018. To clarify, it sends the wrong message, IMO, for Milhist members to be positioning themselves as 'experts' and 'military historians'. On the latter, some of Sturmvogel's comments over the years have been concerning:

• In 2016, Sturmvogel participated in a coordinator-only thread where he shared his concerns about having had "encounters with the diehard anti-Nazis, to [his] chagrin". The discussion included the sentiment, apparently echoed by others, that alleged anti-Nazis were a "problem" and that "all coordinators [should] keep a weather eye out for this behaviour": Thread. Sturmvogel was the lead coordinator at the time, so this aberrant discussion happened on his watch, so to speak.

• More recently, during the German War Effort arbitration case, Sturmvogel defended a historical-revisionist publisher and discussed, in his own voice, "successful" murder of Jews. I had described the comments as "offensive and inappropriate", to which there was no acklowledgement nor a response.

As a MILHIST member, I do not find that Sturmvogel's actions (or inactions) represent the best of the project, deserving the "historian" honour. I therefore must oppose. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:59, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• Sturmvogel 66's comments are being taken out of context here. He specifically stated that Several years ago they published Globocnik’s Men in Italy, 1943-45: Abteilung R and the SS-Wachmannschaften of the Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland, a history of Odilo Globocnik and his staff's activities in northeastern Italy after their successful murder of Polish Jews in Operation Reinhard. This is simply a factual statement that Globocnik was involved in the Holocaust, and Sturmvogel's usage of the term murder, which carries a connotation of illegality, indicates that he is not endorsing Globocnik's actions. Sturmvogel 66 should not be obligated to respond to such as blatant misinterpretation of his comments. Kges1901 (talk) 20:07, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• I evaluated the statement in context. Combining "successful" and "murder" in one's voice is offensive and inappropriate. If Sturmvogel had misspoken, the thing to do would have been to strike the offending comment, not ignore it. That said, we are still left with the matters of "Military historians"; "diehard anti-Nazis", and the "so what" comment in re: J.J. Fedorowicz Publishing. Actual historians deal with sensitive matters all the time; I do not see the same here. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:32, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• I felt that there was little point in carrying on the conversation after you wilfully misunderstood my statement. Better to disengage than to carry on a pointless conversation. As for my comment about Fedorowicz, it is quite possible to extract useful factual information from non-NPOV sources, but you do not seem to agree and apparently wish to throw out the baby with the bathwater by trying to condemn a publisher's entire output without judging each book on its own merits.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:58, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• There are some talented, hard-working editors here, like Sturmvogel 66, who have for years now, volunteered countless hours of their time to write and maintain articles about military history. This is a subject that covers some of the ugliest events of human history, and as such, editors in this area are often obligated to research, write about and discuss some of these events, the details surrounding them and the people involved. And now we have user needlessly casting some very ugly aspersions at one these hard working editors. K.e.coffman, your comments are out of line. I suggest you strike them immediately and apologize to Sturmvogel 66. I would also suggest that an admin rev/del this entire section. This is sickening. - wolf 21:55, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
  • No, let it stand. Coffman has done some very good work on eradicating slanted coverage on Nazi-related topics and is to be applauded for his efforts. That I think that he goes sometimes goes overboard is my opinion, as is his taking offense at my comment(s). And you know what they say about opinions... IMO, military historian of the year should be about quality, not just quantity or time invested.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
    • Well, you are clearly being the bigger person here. I don't know how this helps the next person he may attack, but I will defer to your judgement. At the very least, I would ask that K.e. get off this bent about the term "historian". It does not seem to be impressing anyone, nor accomplishing anything. The manner in which the term is being used here is not at all inappropriate. It has been apart of this this informal, moral and content boosting contest for (as near as I can tell) 10 years now, without causing any harm, nor improperly inferring that anyone deemed the winner has any professional recognition that they are not otherwise entitled to. - wolf 22:29, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• @K.e.coffman: Could you please clarify your position? If you really are so against the use of the term "Military historian", then wouldn't you be opposing all nominations on procedural grounds, not just Sturmvogels's? That you may especially dislike the honor of "historian" being bestowed on this user in light of their comments seems to be purely substantive. -Indy beetle (talk) 22:30, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• These sorts of attacks on other editors make editing in the field very much more unpleasant than it needs to be and are likely to discourage editors from contributing to the subject at all if they think that they will be subject to such abuse.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• @Sturm: These are the baby, bathwater and chaff from the grain arguments: [21]. More examples at:

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort/Evidence#WWII articles
• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort/Evidence#Wikipedians: "historians" or "editors"?

@Indy beetle: The second link also covers my concerns over the "historians" terminology.

As to whether I 'wilfully misunderstood' -- my reaction was informed by my prior encounters with anti-"anti-Nazi" editors (see thread, plus other such incidents). I also note that the pejorative "diehard anti-Nazis" has not been addressed; compare with "diehard anti-genocide". K.e.coffman (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

@Wolf: there's nothing in this thread that's not been discussed / linked during WP:ARBGWE; it's not some unexpected, new evidence. I don't think that your request to rev-delete the entire case would go over well. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• Frankly, this thread is poisonous, petty and unworthy sniping directed at an outstanding contributor to this project, and an attempt to re-litigate aspects of the GWE case where K.e.coffman did not get what they wanted. This appears to be a blatant attempt to undermine an important way in which we reward editors for their contributions to the project. By long-standing tradition and in the spirit of collegiality, this award is determined by a simple approval vote, so there is no scope for opposing a nomination. The option you have under simple approval voting is to not vote for Sturmvogel_66. I am going to close and archive this thread as outside of process and start another one to establish consensus on the name of the award. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:53, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nominations for military history newcomer of the year for 2018 now open!

Military history newcomer of the year 2018

• 
  First place
• 
  Runners up

As we approach the end of the year, it is time for us to nominate the editors who we believe have made a real difference to the project. In addition to the Military historian of the year, all Milhist editors are invited to nominate a promising newcomer that they feel deserves a nod of appreciation for their hard work over the past 12 months for the Military history newcomer of the year award. The award is open to any editor who has become active in military history articles in the last 12 months.

Like the Military Historian of the Year, the nomination process will begin at 00:01 (GMT) on 2 December 2018 and last until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2018. After that a new thread will be created and a voting period of 14 days will commence during which editors will be able to cast their vote for up to three of the nominees. At the end of this period, the top editor will be awarded the Gold Wiki; all other nominees will receive the WikiProject Barnstar.

Please nominate editors below this line, including links in the nomination statement to the most significant articles/lists/images editors have worked on since 1 January 2018. Please keep nomination statements short and concise; excluding links to the articles/list/images in question, the ideal nomination statement should be about 20 words. Self nominations are frowned upon. Please do not vote until the nominations have been finalized. Thanks, and good luck! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:45, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Nominations

Editors are asked to keep their nominations to 10 editors or less and nominations should be made in the following format:

• [user name]: [reason] ~~~~

• Catrìona: Catrìona has only been consistently working on articles that fall within the scope of the project in the last year or so, and their excellent series of Holocaust-related articles has really impressed me with thorough examination of sources and well-written articles, including several GAs. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:52, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• 47thPennVols: 47thPennVols has helped bring improvements to the long-moribund American Civil War topic area with expansions of regimental articles and Medal of Honor recipients to B-class and GA. Kges1901 (talk) 12:24, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

• Eddie891 Been around since 2016, but only became actively working on Milhist articles this year. Since then has produced some impressive work. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:23, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

NAVCENT and 5th Fleet commander(s)

At Talk:United States Naval Forces Central Command § Same commander as 5th Fleet? (which I see is not widely watched), I asked, "are the commanders of NAVCENT and the 5th Fleet always [currently] the same person (i.e. is RADM Schlise the interim NAVCENT commander, to be succeeded by VADM Jim Malloy, per cites at United States Fifth Fleet)?"

Also, is anyone currently working up an article for VADM Stearney, who died today? As COMNAVCENT and being fairly decorated, he seems notable per WP:MILPEOPLE. Is there an example skeleton article I should use if creating an article for him? (edited) —[AlanM1(talk)]— 03:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Stearney is definitely likely to be notable based on rank and size of command, which includes a fleet. Others more familiar with USN bios might have different suggestions, but I would suggest looking at Thomas C. Kinkaid and Arthur W. Radford which are both featured articles on a senior USN officer and will give you a sense of what to aim for. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:44, 2 December 2018 (UTC)