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July 12

Dry and wet colors

Nobody bothers to classify colors this way, but I find it natural to think that while yellow (the variant that's the color of many diamond-shaped road signs in the United States) is dry, fluorescent yellow-green (which in recent years has replaced yellow on some school-related signs) is wet. Any precise definition of a wet color. (Please look at the difference between the colors before you respond.) Georgia guy (talk) 01:15, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Maybe this has to do with the glossiness (or not) of the paint? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:53, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Maybe fluorescence per se, or maybe a non-opaque solid color on a white background? I don't know how wet colors look on a screen. Do you have a picture link? 173.228.123.207 (talk) 04:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Isn't it just the gloss that makes a colour look wet (as BB says above), rather than the colour itself? I've never seen your road signs, so I can't compare them. Might the perception be a form of Synesthesia? Dbfirs 07:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps it's the difference between warm and cool colours?-gadfium 08:34, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

In media, toxic slime, radioactive waste, etc is often portrayed as a lurid or fluorescent yellow or green colour. Could this be subconsciously influencing your perception? Iapetus (talk) 08:44, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I concur that gloss is the place to look at. Gem fr (talk) 08:53, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Gloss is the main factor in visually distinguishing between wet or dry fabrics, except that some fabrics are intentionally made to look wet even when dry. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:31, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

"Coal and Power" enquiry - David Lloyd George

I have a copy of Lloyd George, David (1924). Coal and Power: The Report of an Enquiry presided over by The Right Hon. D. Lloyd George O.M., M.P. London: Hodder and Stoughton. In the Introduction LlG says "a number of people, including Liberal Member of Parliament and others representative of the different elements in the industry and of the public life of the country, were invited to form a Committee, of which I was Chairman...", the book is the report of that committee. I would like to know the membership of the committee. John Campbell described it as a "somewhat shadowy, indeed anonymous, body". Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 13:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I am surprised that the membership is not mentioned in the book. I thought this kind of report always tell who was a member, who was invited to speak, etc. Is this not the case? Gem fr (talk) 13:26, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

It is not. There is an Appendix by R. A. Scott-James, and the Library Edition, which I do not have, contains additional reports by Mr Ivor Evans MA on Germany and Mr Lionel Hill BSc (no relation) on France.

Hi DuncanHill, the "shadowy body" may have been the Liberal Summer School, (though they wouldn't have been the only members, per this: "The Committee consisted of many

engineers and public men".)

Source one: [The Liberal Summer School] "set up a research department...and began to play an active role in the preparation of the Liberal reports of the 1920s, the first of which was Coal and Power. Although the report, published in July 1924, appeared over Lloyd George's signature, liberals hastened to point out its intellectual pedigree, stretching from the Sankey Commission via McNair's LSS activities and pamphlet." This in turn is sourced to a newspaper article and a book that we might be able to find: 'New Mines for Old', Nation, 19.7.1924 and A. McNair, The Problem of the Coal Mines (London, 1924)

Source two: This gives a lot of the names in the Liberal Summer School movement, including those who were interested in coal and electricity.

lengthy quote from Source two
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
E. D. Simon, a wealthy Mancunian industrialist, ... was the moving spirit behind this liberal revival and in 1919, together with Colonel Thomas F. Tweed—at the time the Manchester Liberal Federation's agent and later the north?west Liberal organizer—prevailed upon Ramsay Muir, then professor of Modern History at Manchester University, to attend the meetings that a number of Liberal Manchester businessmen had been having since 1918 to discuss the problems of industry. ..Muir was requested to produce a book, Liberalism and Industry.... ...By early 1921 the Manchester Liberal Federation had not only adopted Muir's book as ‘a basis for the solution of the many social and industrial problems with which the nation is confronted’, but had successfully pressed its case for the adoption of a stance on industrial questions upon the NLF, as discussed in the previous chapter. Simon jotted down in his diary with justifiable pride: ‘I have been in close touch with Manchester Liberalism for the last few years—am responsible both for the production of Muir's book and (almost entirely) for the fact that the NLF is meeting today to adopt an industrial policy.... ...In the summer of 1921 Simon organized a meeting on his farm in Herefordshire with Muir, Philip Guedalla, the liberal journalist, E. T. Scott, son of C. P. and future editor of the Manchester Guardian, and Colonel Tweed. The result was a preliminary summer school that met at Grasmere in September 1921. ... ...The Grasmere meeting, originally limited to fifty participants, nearly doubled that figure.18 The composition of the audience indicated (p.83) the future appeal of the LSS to younger liberals—a ‘League of Youth’, as Stuart Hodgson, the liberal editor, called it.19 No invitations were sent to party officials or MPs—a practice later abandoned as the LSS moved from periphery to centre. The strong Mancunian element was balanced by invitations to prominent liberals and progressives that included J. A. Hobson, R. H. Tawney, Eleanor Rathbone, the economists Walter Layton and D. H. Macgregor, W. H. Beveridge, and A. D. McNair, secretary to the Sankey Commission. Layton later recalled: ‘The backbone of the agenda was naturally Ramsay Muir's book. But even at Grasmere and in increasing volume in ensuing years the thinking of the Liberal Summer School was fed by a series of tributary streams, one or two of which ultimately became great rivers of thought.’20 Thus a dual pattern was set: not only did much British social policy thinking originate in the LSS, but it became the stage for unravelling different strands of post?war liberal theory. ...Following Grasmere the LSS settled down into a regular pattern, meeting alternately in Oxford and Cambridge. Muir and Layton were appointed joint directors of the School and a committee was formed to co?ordinate its work and prepare future summer sessions. Apart from the initiators, the committee included E. H. Gilpin, later co?opting Maurice Bonham?Carter, Major Crawfurd, H. D. Henderson, W. McG. Eagar, Hodgson, and Keynes. Simon was unrepentant about its functioning ‘in a thoroughly undemocratic way’; Muir considered it to be ‘a large and representative council’ despite the lack of elections. The committee held numerous small and private conferences which were not given publicity. ... in 1922 ... Two of the lectures are of particular interest: Layton's ‘The State and Industry’ reflected the general mood of the School on the possibility of radical reform, and was heartily endorsed by the liberal press.31 Many listeners found it ‘a stiff dose of gloom’.32 McNair's ‘The Problem of the Mines’ was important in a different sense—it marked the beginning of LSS ventures into policy proposals that eventually became central planks of the nationally acclaimed Liberal programmes and Reports. ... McNair developed the ideas that had been unsuccessfully floated by the 1919 Sankey (Coal Industry) Commission. Though that commission had not spoken with one voice, all the commissioners had agreed on the need to transfer the control and possession of mineral rights to the state.35 The rejection of the recommendations by the Coalition government and the association of the Labour party point of view with outright nationalization cleared the way for pursuing what Layton termed a solution ‘on characteristically Liberal lines’.36 For McNair, indeed, the solution was ‘emphatically not the Nationalisation of the industry’.37 The mines would remain private; the coal itself and the royalties on it would be nationalized. The state would then be ‘placed in a strategic position for the control and development of this great national asset’,38 and would also determine leases to the mining companies. McNair and Layton could adopt these suggestions as ‘inspired by the Liberal point of view’39 because they combined two perspectives that were emerging as central to liberal thought in the 1920s. The state was the ultimate repository of responsibility for industrial affairs but it was simply not competent to undertake managerial as well as supervisory functions. ‘That is where’, McNair underlined, ‘we part company with our Socialist opponents.’40 As for joint control, measures on both the local and national levels were necessary, especially if some degree of profit?sharing with miners were to materialize. The war (p.87) may not have popularized state socialism but, in McNair's view, it certainly constituted a point of no return for the key coal?mining industry. Mining labour would never again be content with its subordinate position.41 Pre?war new liberalism had alternated between outright communal responsibility via the state and arrangements, such as national insurance, that shared responsibility among other bodies as well. For liberals such as McNair, the war had one main social and industrial lesson to impart—co?operation with the state, rather than exclusive state activity, was the only viable method. McNair's pluralistic notion of friendly partnership among the various units constituting a society was indeed a liberal one, but at the cost of abandoning hope for the impartial, benevolent, and efficient state the new liberals had sponsored. It is interesting therefore to note that the 1922 LSS also heard early mention of an idea that was increasingly to be suggested as an alternative institutional solution to balancing the public and the private domains. This was the public corporation on the Port of London Authority model, mooted by Muir and McNair as the proper method of undertaking an industrial or commercial concern on behalf of the community, by substituting Parliamentary for ministerial control.42 ... 1923 was another important session in terms of producing a liberal ‘groundwork of thought and knowledge’.81 Gilbert Murray gave the inaugural address and others included Muir, McNair, Simon (in his first talk to the LSS), Henry Clay and H. A. L. Fisher. But the novelty lay in the first clear call to liberals from the group of Cambridge economists, Layton, D. H. Robertson and Keynes, their home ground inspiring them to a shared confidence. Robertson's message was simple: "Our remedial thought and effort must be directed not merely to providing stimulants for the depression, but sedatives for the boom. The whole matter is summed up in one word, a word which has become increasingly (p.95) fashionable in recent years, and which it seems to me that the Liberal Party in particular should adopt once for all as the first plank in its social policy—the word ‘stabilization’." ... the Cambridge economists were suggesting—to those liberals prepared to listen—new techniques for attacking some of the moral and social defects that liberals had identified, notably unemployment; they were proposing state intervention in order to facilitate that end, while recognizing the multi?faceted structure of the industrial and commercial worlds... ...By 1924 the LSS had entered on its second phase. The official leadership of the Liberal party now readily acknowledged its existence and, with the reunification of the party and the reemergence of Lloyd George, even its role as ‘think?tank’. ...It set up a research department with the help of the party organization,92 and began to play an active role in the preparation of the Liberal reports of the 1920s, the first of which was Coal and Power. Although the report, published in July 1924, appeared over Lloyd George's signature, liberals hastened to point out its intellectual pedigree, stretching from the Sankey Commission via McNair's LSS activities and pamphlet.93 Muir and Simon may have been less than accurate when they traced Coal and Power (and its later endorsement by the Samuel Commission in 1926) to Summer School discussions;94 nevertheless, the LSS had something to do with the dissemination of the proposals and with the creation of a favourable climate of opinion. It is also only fair to point out that the miners were adamant that nationalization of the mines was the only solution, while both Labour and Conservative governments simply ignored this.95 The report also made recommendations concerning the generation of electricity, similar to those on the mines, though the Nation believed that it might well be made the business of the state, as electricity was an area for large?scale operation.96

70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:14, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks, that looks like a very promising line of enquiry. DuncanHill (talk) 15:24, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Pleasure! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:51, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

A McNair (The Problem of the Coal Mines) was Arnold McNair, 1st Baron McNair. He wrote for The Daily News, which was a Liberal paper. DuncanHill (talk) 22:02, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Solomon Islands' country code SB: why?

Why does the Solomon Islands use a .sb TLD, ISO country code etc when the letter 'B' doesn't appear in its name? Amisom (talk) 15:13, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

A 'B' did appear in its name in 1974, when the codes were formulated. The country became independent in 1978 under its current name. See British Solomon Islands. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

It happens. O'Hare Airport in Chicago is still ORD even though its name is no longer Orchard. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:18, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

• See List of Internet top-level domains#Country code top-level domains, where the tables provide the sources for the codes that are not immediately visible from the current English names for the respective countries. For the Solomon Islands the explanation is Solomon Islands, British. --Theurgist (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Northern Mariana Islands ISO code and US postal abbreviation MP: why?

In the same vein... where does the P come from in the Northern Mariana Islands code? Were all the other codes starting with M already taken or something? --69.159.11.113 (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Marianas Pacific, according to the article linked to by Theurgist above.-gadfium 00:57, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Is there another Marianas? Thanks, anyway. --69.159.11.113 (talk) 05:43, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, the southern-most of the Mariana Islands is Guam. Loraof (talk) 14:59, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

• Which is still in the Pacific. --69.159.11.113 (talk) 05:57, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• These Pacific, of which Guam was not a part. Шурбур (talk) 08:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• Ah! --69.159.11.113 (talk) 20:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• Well the second letter needed to be something, but MI as in "mariana islands" was already taken (though soon to be relinquished) by Midway Island. It couldn't be "MN" as in "Marianas North" since that was taken by Mongolia. I suppose they could have chosen NM as in "Northern Mariana", but, hey, I don't make the decisions. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:17, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• Wouldn't work for the postal abbreviation, though. --69.159.11.113 (talk) 20:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• A pointer to how some of these codes are derived is in the lead of IG postcode area. 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:B18A:406E:9654:B2B7 (talk) 10:58, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

When Serbia became independent in 2006, choosing a code turned out to be a difficult task as everything starting with S and containing another letter of the country's native or English name was taken. They eventually went for RS, after the country's full constitutional name.

Interesting what's going to happen if Scotland has to be assigned a code. If they wish to have one starting with S, the only completely untaken options would be SP, SQ and SW. --Theurgist (talk) 18:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

They could do what Serbia did and have KS -- if they want to be a kingdom, that is. --69.159.11.113 (talk) 20:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Is there a place where I can find the rate of natural increase of countries without taking into account immigrant death?

Wikipedia has this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_increase

The article say the rate of natural increase is defined as the crude birth rate minus the crude death rate. The problem is that while you don't take into account immigration (just crude birth rate), while talking about crude death rate, you take into account the immigrants that died. This creates a problem where immigration is not considered as a plus but if he dies he is considered a negative. Is there an place where I can find an version of this list that don't take into account the death of immigrants? 177.177.210.227 (talk) 16:54, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I cannot think of one. I don't understand your concern, either. You mean that the death of an immigrant should counted as a departure, not a death? Gem fr (talk) 17:19, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Spawning in the country makes you not an immigrant by definition so there is an asymmetry (though they might be immigrants in non-demographic statistics senses like second generation or being allowed to stay). In some countries this won't effect much. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:37, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

My guess is that the OP is interested in figuring out the increase/decrease of the "native" population. That is, is the population growing "on its own", or is it only doing so as a result of immigration. The "problem" is that, once they immigrate, the immigrants are then part of the population and can only contribute to the number of deaths. And, of course, emigrants are not (and can only contribute to the number of births). I doubt immigrant death is tracked anywhere, but I'm thinking you could back into that value by applying the net immigration/emigration. Matt Deres (talk) 19:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Presuming that the immigrants reproduce after arrival, they contribute to the birth column as well as the death column. If you didn't count them in the death rate then the "natural increase" level would reflect what amounts to babies coming out of nowhere. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 20:25, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

let's see... suppose a country has a number of immigrant each year, who all die in the country and never emigrate nor have children, while both immigrant and native populations are constant (as much death as birth for the native, as much immigrants in as immigrants dying). The "rate of natural increase" is negative, because of immigrants death, and population appears compensated by new immigrants (I can hear political sides "OMG there goes the The Great Replacement"/"see, you loser decadents? you need immigrants, be glad they come"). The "rate of natural increase without taking into account immigrant death" would be zero, but immigrants population seems to build up each years (while it actually stay the same), unless you count death of immigrants as an emigration. Yes, there is a problem here. Gem fr (talk) 20:32, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

If a diplomat gives birth abroad does the new human spawn there for population statistics purposes even if they use that special rule to prevent baby from becoming their citizen or national? Or does his parents' country get the natural increase? If someone gives birth on a cruise ship in the high seas where does the new human spawn? The first country of the first territorial waters the kid enters? The ship's flag of convenience? If kid leaves and goes home to his country of citizenship before the next year does he count as a natural increase for the tourist country, one of their emigrants and an immigrant to his own country all in the same year? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

"Spawn". I do not think this word means what you think it means. {The poster foremrly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 23:45, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Spawn in the video game sense. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:16, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Does that match any encyclopaedic sense? HiLo48 (talk) 04:40, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Spawning (gaming). For instance my spawn point was in the United States, that's usually a relatively easy level, Australia and Western Europe are even easier. As of 2019 most humans have gotten much harder spawn points like Iraq, pre-industrial or Somalia, those are Difficulty Level: Asian. If you got an easy life out of those you either had great luck of the draw or play the game of life very well. Donald Trump started in Queens, Obama started in Hawaii, one POTUS even started on a state border (his mom gave birth in nature while rushing to the nearest midwife or doctor or something like that and he popped out so close to the line no one will ever know which side). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:48, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Useful information at Birth aboard aircraft and ships and [1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:B18A:406E:9654:B2B7 (talk) 11:08, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Denying bail

In bail in the United States, the only reason given for having or denying bail is to make sure the person shows up for trial. Epstein is apparently considered a flight risk (that part makes perfect sense), so he's being held, but it's a big news story that his lawyers have asked for him to be put under house arrest instead. If the only reason to deny bail is to keep tabs on him, then house arrest with enough security monitoring would seem to handle it.

However, there is also an obvious concern that if he can go back to his fancy apartment, he can destroy any evidence there that the search team (the one that found the labelled cd's) might have missed. He can also communicate privately with his possible accomplices, blackmail targets, etc. There's a pretty obvious interest in preventing that. The premise of the prisoners' dilemma is that the prisoners haven't yet been tried, but they are still not allowed to communicate with each other.

My question: is there legal justification for keeping someone jailed pending trial, other than to make sure he doesn't flee the country? Bonus question: does the SDNY federal court have enough jurisdiction over the US Virgin Islands to order a search of Epstein's compound there, and if yes, why the heck haven't they done it? ObDisclaimers: not seeking legal advice, Epstein presumed innocent, Acosta only wanted to avoid a spectacle, blah blah. NY Mag article[2] about Epstein's island is amazing if you haven't seen it. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 20:39, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

You must have missed this sentence in the article: "Legally, bail determination is based on four factors: seriousness of the crime, ties to the community, the flight risk posed by the defendant, and the danger posed by the defendant to his or her community." In this case in particular, there may even be a fifth criterion: the danger posed TO the defendant by his community. --Khajidha (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

US Virgin Islands are under FBI jurisdiction. Epstein having good lawyers is reason enough for some searching to be delayed (keeping in mind the searches may have been done without we still knowing it). Gem fr (talk) 21:37, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Epstein's charges were brought by the federal government. The U.S. government has jurisdiction throughout, well, the whole U.S. Any U.S. Attorney's office can apply for a search warrant to be served anywhere in the U.S. But, of course, search warrants have to be approved by a judge (a federal judge, in federal cases) who is convinced probable cause exists. As noted in the previous reply, warrants can be issued under seal until they are executed, which may take time, especially in complex cases. From what I've read, Epstein's arrest warrant was issued under seal, which is often done when the defendant is considered a flight risk, to prevent them from learning of the warrant and fleeing before they can be arrested. He was actually out of the country when the warrant was issued, and was arrested on return to the U.S.

A question occurred to me: for state charges, what's the typical procedure when the prosecution thinks there is relevant evidence in another state? A little searching pulled up this post on The Volokh Conspiracy. Apparently out-of-state search warrants aren't covered by the Full Faith and Credit Clause. It looks like the "proper" procedure is for State A to apply for a State B search warrant in State B's courts, but according to that post sometimes states will honor out-of-state search warrants although they aren't required to. Note this is different for arrest warrants; the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled states are bound to honor each others' arrest warrants (subject to a few limitations) under the Extradition Clause. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 22:48, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I think in Epstein's case the probable cause for searching the USVI site is bloody obvious. They arrested him after all, and they searched his New York residence quite recently, and if I were them I'd be searching it much more thoroughly right now. I glossed over "danger to the community" thinking that Epstein would be closely watched enough to not commit more molestation directly while under house arrest. I was wondering more of the possibility of his destroying evidence or engaging in conspiracy while confined at home. Jailing him pre-trial for his own protection (protective custody) without his consent seems dubious. Yes, for state-to-state stuff if they don't get the FBI involved, I'd expect the local state's agency would have to coordinate with the other state's counterpart. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 01:26, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

July 13

The diversity visa lottery and screening

My dad previously told me that, in the past (15 years ago), if someone won the diversity visa lottery but was unable to complete their screening/background check in time, then they would not actually get a US green card. However, my dad also said that there has been a lawsuit (or more than one lawsuit) that changed the rules in regards to this and allowed diversity visa lottery winners to provisionally get their green card even if their screening/background check isn't actually completed--with the caveat that these winners could see their green card revoked if their screening/background check will find anything sufficiently suspicious about them later on.

Anyway, does anyone here know anything about this lawsuit/these lawsuits that apparently resulted in such a change? I tried Googling this but couldn't find any relevant information. Futurist110 (talk) 05:09, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Some information here: FBI Name Check#February 2008 USCIS policy change. 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:B18A:406E:9654:B2B7 (talk) 10:48, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! That said, though, does anyone know why exactly this change was made? Was it the result of a lawsuit/lawsuits like my dad said? Or was it for some other reason--and if so, what reason? Futurist110 (talk) 20:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Italian connections

Did TWA have any connections, such as hubs and/or focus cities, in Italy?142.255.69.73 (talk) 12:24, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

See Trans World Airlines#1980s. 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:B18A:406E:9654:B2B7 (talk) 12:33, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

How about Pan Am?142.255.69.73 (talk) 12:45, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

According to List of Pan Am destinations... no. Blueboar (talk) 14:14, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much.142.255.69.73 (talk) 18:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

drawing by Leonardo da Vinci ("Studies of water, and a seated old man")

"Studies of water, and a seated old man" (Melzi number 57)

What is the inscription on this drawing (original)? Looked around the web for about 20 minutes. Even the official website is not stating the words[3]... --Mateus2019 (talk) 17:30, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

See here (original and English translation). For comparison with the original, you can view the inverted text here, and that site also gives a more modern Italian translation. (Can't link directly. Just click on "TESTO INVERTITO" for the inverted text, and "TRADUZIONE DEL TESTO" for the translation). 77.58.230.187 (talk) 21:43, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Have you seen that bloody Leonardo da Vinci cartoon? DuncanHill (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@77.58.230.187: Thank you very much! --Mateus2019 (talk) 08:14, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

July 14

Pro-research help needed for Harry Hay

Hi again, I’ve started my final edits on possible content of Harry Hay’s involvement with NAMBLA. You can see it here.

I’ve seen only a few characterize him as being an advocate for the group, and those seem to have little or no support for their assertion. I can’t tell if the subject is too taboo for publications to deal with, too complex—as Hay seems only to talk about his experience, and theories that gay people should avoid assimilation, or something else.

Anyone have good sources that speak to him being an advocate for NAMBLA in any depth?

All help appreciated! Gleeanon409 (talk) 12:53, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

first: it is NOT OK to link toward your "possible content" without linking Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#NAMBLA_content_on_Harry_Hay and Talk:Harry_Hay#Pedophile_/_NAMBLA_advocacy. The matter is extensively discussed where it should. Don't expect from the ref desk another outcome.

Obviously, the article is just choke full of good sources that speak to him being an advocate for NAMBLA. Probably too much, actually, considering he was a supporter, not a member. It seems to me you act as if good source were source telling good things; this is just not true. Because a source tell things that upsets you do not turn them into bad source.

If NAMBLA is possibly the most hated group imaginable to many LGBTQ people, obviously, Hay wasn't one of those "many LGBTQ people".

And it seems that he was unafraid to stand against any establishment, including LGBTQ's. So I am not sure he would approve of your move.

So may be you should just let it go.

Now, I am not sure that the issue needs a whole paragraph in the intro, may be a single sentence would be enough for someone who was an active supporter, not a member, and who dedicated only a small part of his activities to NAMBLA. He probably was supporter of many groups, of which NAMBLA was just one. So may be, instead, you should look for other groups he also supported.

Gem fr (talk) 17:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

No intent to mislead was intended at all. The sourcing on the Hay article for this content currently is dismal, as is the spin on them, that is the problem. After trying to address the issue initially, I started to do a survey of what I could find. Which remains very little. He was indeed not a member and said that he was never inclined to be one. I’m not yet even seeing he was an advocate for the group as much as he was for himself. His time in talking supposedly about them was instead all about his one coming of age story. If he did something else I would report it.

If I found he was indeed an avowed advocate, I might be surprised but I would dutifully report exactly that. Ditto whatever else I find. What I have so far is there, including Hay’s reasons for doing what he did. I may not fully understand or agree with him but I feel his own thoughts as noted in RS should be included.

My concern, and the reason I’m asking for help, is that my bias might be in the way of me finding better sources, ones that spell out how he is perceived as, or actually was a true advocate for the group. Any help in getting to the facts on this is appreciated. Gleeanon409 (talk) 19:39, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Man, if someone who speak on behalf of a banned group, plea to have them included, and wear banner "the group march with me" when he doesn't succeed, is not an advocate, who is? Unless you mean "true advocate" like some mean "true Scotsman"... Gem fr (talk) 20:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Putting aside the understandable emotions generated by the subject matter here, there is a distinction between advocating that a group be included, and advocating for the views of the group. I took a glance at Harry Hay and am not sure that this distinction comes across. If he did advocate for the views of the group, then that should be called out separately and sourced. Otherwise, the claim that he was an advocate for the group needs to be qualified and explained. --Trovatore (talk) 20:32, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Advocacy for the group Vs advocacy for the view of the group? Sound like nitpicking to me. Anyway, Hay told that gay boys, including by his own experience, longed for older man taking care of them. Gem fr (talk) 23:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

The distinction between advocating that someone should be heard, versus advocating that someone is actually right, is not nitpicking at all. It is utterly fundamental. --Trovatore (talk) 23:58, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I’ve included the facts already in my proposed content, his reasoning seems to be he’s not so invested in them being included or not, but that he felt the LGBTQ communities needed to have a discussion on the issues themselves—rather than have “the heteros” dictate who belongs—before any group who identify as lesbian or gay was banned. He might have felt there was both: interference from outside forces; and a judgement without any trial. Or that could be oversimplification.

I’m guessing the current sources on the article are there as examples, while a couple state he was but offer no reasoning beyond he protested them being banned from two high-profile community parades.

If he was engaged in pro-pedophile advocacy, or pro-NAMBLA advocacy, we should document it. But to accuse him without evidence doesn’t help, and distracts from addressing the actual cases of people who are engaged in those activities, or any child abuse.

In any case I need content to reflect the sources, and I’m hoping there is better sources out there. Gleeanon409 (talk) 20:51, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

nuff said from me. I repeat: The matter is extensively discussed where it should [talk page]. Don't expect from the ref desk another outcome. Gem fr (talk) 23:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate your feedback. Getting a different result—actual sources that confirm the assertion he was an advocate—is exactly what I hope will happen here, apparently the purpose of this board. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Anyone actually able to help with reference(s). Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

When was the first time a nation became unsustainable without food imports or diaspora/colonizing?

107.242.117.53 (talk) 18:27, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

107.242.117.53 -- In ancient times, mainland Greece and its closely-associated islands had a limited amount of farmland which could only produce a limited amount of food according to ancient agricultural practices, and so had a limited carrying capacity to support a human population (of course, the limiting factor was food produced during a year of bad harvest). Greek responses to this included female infanticide, importing grain from various areas (such as the Black Sea coasts), and founding overseas colonies (emigration).

In modern times, the first major world power not to be self-sufficient in basic staple foodstuffs was probably Britain in the 19th century. This added special bitterness on the UK side to the UK-German naval rivalry of the end of the 19th century and the 20th century leading up to WW1... AnonMoos (talk) 04:45, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

"In the course of the second half of the eighteenth century Great Britain virtually ceased to be self-sufficient in grain...". [4] Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

You skip over the Roman Empire, but it was also dependent on import of foodstuffs, particularly grains from North Africa. --Xuxl (talk) 12:27, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The population of the city of Rome was certainly dependent on grain shipments from Egypt and the province of "Africa" (today's northern Tunisia and northeastern Algeria), but I don't think that applied to the Roman empire as a whole... AnonMoos (talk) 13:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The roman Empire was not a nation, it was an Empire. North Africa and Egypt were indeed Rome bread-brackets, but they were part of the Empire

From the very beginning, every city has been dependent on the countryside for food. Rome was no special in that.

"colonizing" is the normal mode of operation for living things, human included

No one could live in most of Earth without importing salt, and this predate writing and the establishment of nation. So the answer is : from day one, probably; from time immemorial for sure.

See also: timeline of international trade

Gem fr (talk) 13:44, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

If you live by the sea, or near a brine spring, you can make your own salt. See Salt History - Roman Times. Alansplodge (talk) 18:24, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

yes; but even in such case, you are better off buying it from people specializing in salt production because they have better condition, while you have better condition to produce something they need. Gem fr (talk) 21:54, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Gem_fr -- Salt is an inorganic mineral, not an agricultural staple foodstuff, so it's a somewhat different case. Humans need a much smaller amount of salt each day than of nutritional food, and salt doesn't go bad over time if stored with some degree of care. In the great majority of cases throughout world history before the rise of railroads in the 19th century, it simply wasn't cost-effective to ship grain any substantial distance by land transport (as opposed to by seas, rivers, or canals) -- but the same was not true of salt. And so on... AnonMoos (talk) 05:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

salt being inorganic, and required in relative low quantity, doesn't stop it to be food for humans and their herd. You don't feed on grain only, you'll need protein and fat (cheese, ham and other salted/dried meat/fish, herds that would be slaughtered near the city, oil...), and you'll want wine, beer, or whatever drinkable stuff (of which, water is NOT, unless you want to die quickly and painfully). Salt (spices, oil and wine also somewhat share these features) is universal, could travel far, high value/weight, was taxed (which left records), and hence much more known than other foodstuff, but it is a safe bet that other foodstuff, which left fewer records, shared the routes. And, then gain, this include cattle to be slaughtered. There are reasons to think that the huge, hundred or even thousand of km, cattle land transport (on foot) from the prairies to Chicago or Pampa to Buenos Aires, was practiced in Roman and Babylonian times, and even before any recording (Transhumance).Gem fr (talk) 09:06, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

So this question ends up being answered by the question: what is a "nation"? Is a Greek city state a nation? Is the Roman empire a nation? Is Roman Italy a nation? Is the Latium a nation? Is the British Empire a single nation? depending on your definition, you have different answers to the original question --Lgriot (talk) 17:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

No, my answer is : from day one. Because, humans had to trade food from strangers before cities, nations (whatever definition you use), and writing. This doesn't depend on a definition of nation. Gem fr (talk) 18:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Lgriot -- the British empire was probably self-sufficient in basic agricultural staple foodstuffs as long as it included Canada. It's the island of Britain which wasn't (and isn't) self-sufficient. AnonMoos (talk) 21:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Errr, yeah, guys, that is exactly what I mean! if the OP considers the first city in the fertile crescent to be a nation, then that is his answer. The OP probably does not consider that city to be a nation, so he is probably looking for post-medieval "nations". But then the answer seems to be the island of Britain, but only if you consider that island to be a nation, since at the time where it lost its food-self-sufficiency, it had an empire, which could be considered part of the same nation, or not. Therefore the OP will choose his own answer depending on his own criteria of what constitutes a nation. --Lgriot (talk) 13:40, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

To swear on one's genitals

I was surprised to find in our article on sexuality in ancient Rome a reference to swearing on one's genitals. I thought that was a Hebrew thing! (Cf instances of people in the Old Testatment swearing euphemistically on/under one's thighs.) I like compare/contrast stuff between Jewish and Roman ideas. Is there a name for this practice? I mean this is "a thing" in history and maybe there should be an article? Temerarius (talk) 19:44, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, that article says Some ancient Mediterranean cultures swore binding oaths upon the male genitalia, and the reference given does point to examples in Genesis; it doesn't say it was a Roman thing. Etymonline asserts (without reference) that Stories that trace the use of the Latin word to some supposed swearing-in ceremony are modern and groundless.. Henry^Flower 20:19, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

EO has this to say about "testimony".[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:30, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

John Ayto's Dictionary of Word Origins (Bloomsbury 1990) concurs, and further traces Latin testis 'witness' to the reconstructed prehistoric Indo-European base *tris 'three', implying a 'third person' who could be a disinterested witness to an agreement.

As for the 'testicle' connection, the word is an English coinage of the 15th century (both Ayto and EO say) which carries the sense that the testes (Latin plural of testis) "'bear witness' to a man's virility." EO specifically dismisses the notion of a Roman swearing ceremony as a modern invention, and mentions the possible connection of testis to testa 'pot', which I believe is also the origin of French tête via Vulgar Latin slang. {The poster fomerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 17:46, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

See also A “Witness” and a “Testicle”? A Linguistic Analysis of the Latin Word “Testis” which gives some background to this theory, apparently the suggestion of classicist and linguist Joshua Katz in 1998. Alansplodge (talk) 18:06, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Not quite swearing on them, but among my male friends when I was a lot younger it was fairly common for someone certain something would happen to say they would bet their balls on it. Can't find a precise source, but this [6] comes close. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

To bet one's ass/arse is also well-known. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:21, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

True. Is it just an Australian thing? Or more global? Perhaps a British thing too? HiLo48 (talk) 04:24, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The idiom is well known in North American varieties of English. --Jayron32 15:53, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

As documented in the film Blazing Saddles. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

July 15

Lady Wimborne's Hospital at Uskub

Our article Lancelot Barrington-Ward says that in the First World War he was Surgeon-in-Chief to Lady Wimborne's Hospital at Uskub. I would like to know more about Lady Wimborne and her hospital, thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 00:29, 15 July 2019 (UTC) - I've just changed Wimburne to Wimborne, there was a typo in our article. DuncanHill (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I suspect this is Lady Cornelia Henrietta Maria Guest, Baroness Wimborne, 1847-1927. She was born Cornelia Henrietta Maria Spencer-Churchill, and married Sir Ivor Bertie Guest (1st Baron Wimborne) in 1868. She set up a Serbian Relief Fund in 1915. - Nunh-huh 01:40, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, yes that must be her - mentioned here in the National Archives ("Members of Serbian Relief Fund Units sent to Serbia (including Lady (Ralph) Paget's Hospital; Cornelia Lady Wimborne's Hospital; Mrs Stobart's Hospital; 1st British Farmers' Hospital; 2nd British Farmers' Hospital)"), and here with a portrait. She had already set up a hospital in Poole. DuncanHill (talk) 08:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

More details of the organisation (mainly Lady Paget's) at Great War Forum - Serbian Relief Fund Hospital. Alansplodge (talk) 09:10, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The Serbian hospital is also mentioned in this book: "...the second Serbian Relief Fund Unit, the Winborne unit--so named because Lady Cornelia Wimborne had raised the funds for it--had already gone out to Skoplje..."

Lots of her letters reprinted in various biographies of Winston Churchill, and she seems to have written to the editor lots too, about church issues - she had a "league for combating the introduction of ritualism into English Church"[7]. This one has a bit about her personality; she is portrayed as kind, generous and a peacemaker.

Brief biography in [8] if you can get WP:RX to access full version for you. Here's Burke's Peerage entry (mother of nine). She lived at Canford Manor until 1923 [9] and she had built 111 cottages for estate workers there [10] [11].

Also keep seeing her in agricultural news, in some of those random bits that make historical research so fun: enthusiastic about rabbits and "has several greenhouses filled with hutches". Her herd of cows wins a trophy from the Dorset Milk Recording Society in 1921. Her husband had donated the trophy. Wasn't that a Downton Abbey plot? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:32, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Splendid work again! Very much appreciated. DuncanHill (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

You ask the most fun questions :) 70.67.193.176 (talk) 13:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

July 16

German wifi

Four questions:

1) What happened to the Wikipedia travel reference desk? I know there is a wikivoyage reference desk, but not a Wikipedia one.

2)Is free wifi now widespread in Germany? I heard that free wifi was scarce there three years years ago because of a law that is no longer in effect. Basically, not a lot of places provided free wifi because wifi providers were liable if people used their network to download pirated material. Wondering this because I am trying to decide if I can get by just using WhatsApp on my phone at wifi spots if I need to make phone calls. I'm trying to avoid roaming fees, which are high for my plan. I would rather do that instead of purchasing an sim card or a disposable cell phone.

Is free wifi widespread in the Netherlands outside of Amsterdam, say in Rotterdam or Utrecht? What about Switzerland? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.167.226.152 (talk) 04:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

In answer to your first question, there has never been a Wikipedia travel reference desk. Questions on travel go in misc. --Viennese Waltz 07:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The page Wikipedia:Reference desk lists the reference desks, and one in the list is "Travel", with the description "Desk administered by sister project Wikivoyage (External Link)" IIRC, "Travel" used to also have a link in the upper right of each desk. Loraof (talk) 16:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Free wifi is fairly widespread over most of Europe. But generally you will need to gain the password. In most establishments in Europe, the password will be either written on a wall, on the menu; near the cash register or on the menu or on the table. Wifi is generally available free of charge is most public establishments like restaurants and coffee shops, but it is rarely any good. The connection is often slow and unreliable. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 08:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, free wi-fi is now the rule rather than the exception in cafés in Europe, but I disagree that it is "rarely any good". I hardly ever experience a bad connection in a café or bar. That issue you had with liability is no longer an issue (if indeed it ever was) because you always have to tick a box to accept their terms and conditions before you can go online. You can also sometimes find hotspots in public places like parks, but that kind of provision is not particularly widespread or reliable. As for making phone calls, despite what I said above, I would still be tempted to buy a local SIM card rather than rely on Whatsapp and wi-fi. Although I note that you are in the US so check whether your phone is compatible with European sim cards, you might have to buy a cheap disposable phone as you suggest. --Viennese Waltz 08:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Agree with most things. Free WiFi is also available in fast long-distance train (ICE), and on many local light-rail networks now. That said, a local prepaid card is as little as EUR 7,99 for one month including a decent data plan, and you can buy extra data contingents rather cheaply. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 03:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Destinations of a defunct Swiss national airline

I'm trying to find a list of destinations where Swissair flew before they ceased operations in 2002. Where's a good place to start?142.255.69.73 (talk) 11:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Here is an archived page from the old Swissair website, dating from January 2002. Does that help? --Viennese Waltz 13:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much.2604:2000:7104:2F00:2C7B:C50E:77FE:EECC (talk) 19:36, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thomas Tobias (Tobiaszoon)

A draft article

Thomas Tobias (Tobiaszoon) (born(1630s?)Ireland), was a famous Irish Roman Catholic sea captain of the mid 17th century who served as an officer in both the English Navy and Dutch Confederate Navy before and during the Second and Third Anglo-Dutch Wars. Tobias is first mentioned as being an officer under Admiral Edward Spraage (also an Irishman) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Spragge (1) Tobias is later mentioned prominently during the Four Days Battle of 1666 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days%27_Battle as leading the action against the 60gun English "greatship" Swiftsure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Swiftsure_(1621) , taking her a prize and given subsequent command of her and the prize crew responsible for repairing her and conveying her back to Amsterdam where she was upgraded to 70 guns and renamed the Oudshoorn.(2) Tobias was the "flag captain" of the 80 gun Dutch flagship Hollandia under Lieutenant Admiral Van Ghent from 1666-1667. (4) Tobias is noted for his valor during the famous Dutch Attack up the Thames River estuary (Raid on the Medway) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway in June 1667. During the battle he was aboard Lieutenant-Admiral Baron Willem Joseph van Ghent's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Joseph_van_Ghent frigate Agatha and charged with the reduction of the intentionally sunken English warships as an obstacle preventing the Dutch from continuing upriver.(1) Subsequently he was ordered to lead the attack on the 80gun English flagship Royal Charles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Royal_Charles_(1655) . After the ship was taken as a prize, Tobias was charged to take command of the ship and prize crew in order to prepare it for the sea passage to the Netherlands. Tobias was required to further reduce the obstacles of sunken ships to allow the deep draft English capital ship to proceed out of the estuary. He then sailed the ship to Amsterdam where it became a great spectacle.(1) During the Third Anglo-Dutch War, Tobias was captain of the 50gun Dutch man-o-war Beschermer (built 1665). He also served as Admiral Cornelis Tromp's "flag captain" in several actions. His son Jan Thomas Tobiaszoon was also registered as an able seaman aboard Tromp's flagship. (3) Tobias is last mentioned in 1673/4 as the captain of the 58gun Dutch frigate Geloof during Admiral DeRuyter's second punitive expedition to the Caribbean and his attack on French Martinique.(2) The Geloof was noted to have taken several prizes during the expedition. https://media.vam.ac.uk/media/thira/collection_images/2018LH/2018LH4246_jpg_l.jpg 58gun Dutch frigate "Geloof" (from V&A collection: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1020085/hull-of-the-dutch-ship-drawing-van-de-velde/ ) The Dutch historian Dr. Japp R. Bruijn also mentions that Thomas Tobias and Michel DeRuyter were close neighbors and friends. Early in DeRuyter's career he had been a merchant captain often trading in Ireland and was noted to be fluent in Irish. Bruijn estimates that eight percent of seamen serving in the Dutch Navy during the 17th century Anglo-Dutch wars were from the British Isles with a majority of those from Ireland. (1) References 1. DeRuyter: Dutch Admiral, Edited by Japp R. Bruijn, Ronald Prud'homme van Reine and Rolof van Hovell tot Westerflier 2. Dutch Warships in the Age of Sail 1600-1714 by James Bender 3. The Dutch Navy of the Seventeeth and Eighteenth Centuries by Jaap R. Bruijn 4. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Joseph_van_Ghent

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron R Shields (talk • contribs) 17:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

What's your question? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi Aaron R Shields, this is a good start at your draft. Take a look at the edit I made to the line about Edward Spragge - it shows you how to link to other wikipedia articles and how to format references. You can do this for the rest of the links and references in your draft.

Is there anything you feel is unsourced and that you need help finding sources for? That is what this place is for. If you let us know what you need to find out we can help you. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

And be sure to check your user talk page (User talk:Aaron R Shields) -- there's some helpful advice and useful links. —107.15.157.44 (talk) 22:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

July 17

G. O. Number: 85

Resolved

Any idea what the above means? (From here), relating to Hiroshi H. Miyamura. Presumably, it is US military related. "General Order" seems to be a red herring. For some reason, search engine query points to: Service number (United States Army), but I can't find anything directly relevant there. Any ideas? ... Also, I can't find what his middle name is ("H."). Thanks in advance, —107.15.157.44 (talk) 03:47, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

It's "General Order". This is Miyamura's. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 04:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! —107.15.157.44 (talk) 14:51, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Significant Pre-Columbian structures in US/Canada?

Are the Mississippian mounds (largest being Cahokia) the most significant structures to still exist in the US(Non-Hawaii)/Canada constructed prior to 1492? Is there a belief that there were more significant constructed which have been destroyed in between 1492 and now? Does the answer change at all if the part of Mexico north of an East-West line through the southern tip of Texas is considered instead? Does Hawaii change this?

If Cahokia is the most significant, are there other similarly sided areas of the world (>5% of the world area) equally lacking similar historical surviving structures (and were similar not constructed or not survive?)Naraht (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

In Northern America, there are the pueblos and the cliff-dwellings in the southwest and the mounds in the mid-west. If you want something architecturally bigger or more impressive, then you're pretty much out of luck. Part of the reason, is that along the anthropological typology of band–tribe-chiefdom-state, pre-Columbian Northern American peoples didn't advance much beyond the incipient state level. The reason why well-consolidated states, true cities, and multinational empires didn't develop could be due to ecological reasons -- the Southwest has somewhat limited and dispersed agricultural land, while the eastern half of the U.S. didn't have a good staple agricultural crop until maize (corn) was adapted to the climate there around 900 A.D. (with probably too little time left for populations to become denser and centralized political traditions to form). AnonMoos (talk) 19:07, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Per AnonMoos, the ancestral Puebloan people's that inhabited what was once the Four Corners region of the U.S. built extensive urban dwellings. The most famous are the cliff dwellings of places like Mesa Verde, but their flat-ground settlements, while leaving less impressive ruins, were much larger (see for example Chaco Canyon, and Aztec Ruins National Monument, which was not Aztec despite the name, but ancestral Puebloan). It has been estimated that the population of the region peaked in the 12th-13th century CE, and was much higher than even today. --Jayron32 19:32, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

History of the tallest structures in the world (before Giza)

History of the world's tallest buildings and List of tallest structures built before the 20th century don't really have what I am looking for. What were the tallest structures before Giza was built? What was the oldest structures in the world that can be hypothesized to the world's tallest structure at the time of its construction? I realize this is a hard to prove given the spottiness of the archaeological record but I assume it can be estimated at least. KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

What about List of tallest buildings and structures#Tallest freestanding structures on land? These articles are a bit of a jumbled mess and need a good reorganizing. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

That would be the Pyramid of Djoser the prototype of subsequent pyramids; "The pyramid of Djoser was the tallest structure in the world for 38 years". [12]

From our ziggurat article: "The Sialk ziggurat, in Kashan, Iran, is the oldest known ziggurat, dating to the early 3rd millennium BCE". There doesn't seem to be a more precise date, but it may or may not be older than Djoser.

Before that, it's going to be a bit tricky, as tall buildings were not really a thing. Alansplodge (talk) 12:00, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but it's also going to be tricky because "history" wasn't really a thing (or was just starting to be). When you're back this far, you start mixing historical with prehistorical and the dates are going to be based on something else (dendrochronology, radiometric dating, etc.) and the question of which came first really becomes a toss up unless the values are grossly different. Matt Deres (talk) 19:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

After a bit more Googling, it seems that the generally accepted date of the Sialk ziggurat is c. 2900 BC (The Neolithisation of Iran p. 189), Djoser's pyramid is thought to have been completed by 2648 BC. Alansplodge (talk) 22:03, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Tower of Babel? Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 13:28, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

July 18

Street Map with Baldwin NY School District Boundaries

I've searched the web but cannot find a Google map or any other app's map of the Baldwin NY School District. I've phoned the School District office and they confirm that no such map exists online. The only available possibility is found on schooldigger.com, but the street names are not visible and the page is cluttered with other overlaid information. Thank you.WhoIsSylvia? (talk) 02:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Presumably you're talking about this map (click on Boundaries, then District)? It seems fine to me, you can zoom in to see the individual street names. --Viennese Waltz 08:17, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Is this Baldwin Senior High School (New York)? We've got a zoomable map linked from our article that might be what you want. The software won't let me link it directly from here, but click on the article, scroll down to External Links and click the City Data entry. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Ownership of Home Depot

How much of Home Depot does Bernard Marcus own, if any? "Asking for a friend." -- Beland (talk) 04:53, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

In theory easy to find out, in practice impossible. You can look up the results of public filings at sits like [13], where you can find who owns how much stock, but since most stocks are owned indirectly, you just see a list of banks. Insiders cannot hide this way if they have bought or sold stocks that year. Marcus also, I don't know if he's still considered an insider. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

In the UK we have a site https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/ where all UK registered companies are listed. It is as easy as typing in the name of the company or one of the directors and pulling up the information. You will be able to see all information including past year filings, directors, past and present and charges. I would expect the USA has something similar but will leave that with another expert to comment on. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 13:31, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

List of states with limited recognition

In general, recognising a breakaway state means breaching if not ruining your relations with the claimant state. Yet, the single state in the list with no recognition at all (Somaliland) is also the one that is claimed by the single weakest and least influential among the claimant states (Somalia). Why doesn't anyone want to annoy Somalia when many countries have no problems with annoying countries such as China, Israel and Serbia? --Qnowledge (talk) 19:30, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

What benefit does recognizing Somaliland provide for other states to do so? --Jayron32 19:37, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Two considerations of country X declaring that it recognises Somaliland are that

(i) it might provoke factions in Somalia to commit aggressive actions against Somaliland in 'reply', and

(ii) it might weaken any diplomatic influences that country X is currently able to exert on Somalia.

In international diplomacy, issues of 'face' can seem silly but are nevertheless real and have to be taken into consideration. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 19:50, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it's not so much that recognising Somaliland (a functioning democratic state which controls its own territory) would annoy Somalia (a non-functioning, non-democratic state which controls hardly any territory), but rather that if you start recognising breakaway states, you put the willies up countries with breakaway states of their own - it makes it harder for them to justify not recognising them. So you don't recognise Somaliland not because it would annoy Somalia - nobody gives a damn about that - but because it would annoy China etc. DuncanHill (talk) 20:08, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Not sure China cares at all. If it can profit from both (and it can!), it will [14] Gem fr (talk) 22:43, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

China doesn't care at all about either Somalia or Somaliland, except as centres of profit and influence, but it cares if other states start legitimising breakaway states because large parts of the Chinese Empire would rather be independent. DuncanHill (talk) 22:48, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Sometimes, pissing off the claimant state is just the point of recognising a breakaway state. Kosovo, for instance, was recognized to piss off Serbia and Russia.

Plus, there is just no need to recognize Somaliland to trade with it; Somaliland is in no position to blackmail others states "you recognize us or... (whatever: your merchants are forbidden, we won't help you solve you migrant problem, we will deny you access to some military ressource..." Gem fr (talk) 22:43, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

July 19

Hypothetical question about a US state constitutional amendment process

Let's say that, purely hypothetically, some US state has an extremely high bar in regards to amending its constitution--for instance, by requiring a 90% vote in favor of a constitutional amendment for it to actually be adopted. Also, let's say that SCOTUS will use the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause to declare this US state constitutional amendment process to be unconstitutional. However, what would happen if this US state will refuse to specify a new constitutional amendment process in its constitution? Would SCOTUS then be entitled to declare what kind of constitutional amendment process this US state should have? Futurist110 (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Your question is too speculative for the general version to get meaningful answers here, but Hollingsworth v. Perry was a case of a federal appelate court throwing out a state constitutional amendment. Nobody knew how it was going to go until it happened. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 04:42, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Chelsea Pleasure Gardens

In 1866, what would "Chelsea Pleasure Gardens" refer to? Obviously "a" pleasure garden in Chelsea, but which one would have been considered "the" Chelsea Pleasure Gardens in 1866 when referring to it as a performance venue? 2606:A000:1126:28D:90E5:ABEC:4279:A682 (talk) 05:11, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

What does your source say about the performance that it was a venue for? Perhaps this event can be looked up somewhere else. --69.159.11.113 (talk) 06:33, 19 July 2019 (UTC)