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November 18

Presumption of Innocence & the Me Too movement

Is it just me or does the legal concept of presumption of innocence get brought up in discussions surrounding sexual harassment and sexual assault much more than than any other types of crimes such as murder especially in light of the #Metoo movement in the United States?

For example, if you are an anime fan, you probably have known about the huge and polarizing controversy around the English dub voice actor Vic Mignogna. In this case, his #StandwithVic defenders have brought this principle up in the heated discourse quite often to the point where we #Kickvic have to use the fact that Vic was the plaintiff suing his accusers to counter this particular argument. I mean, you don't see this kind of behavior with other types of crimes especially if you are familiar with high-profile cases. I am pretty sure quite a huge portion of the general public believed that OJ Simpson was guilty long before he lost his civil suit and it is quite obvious that quite a lot of people already believe that Jussie Smollette is guilty of making up a racial hoax and no longer stand by him. Then there is the media circus surrounding the Scott Peterson case and the Disappearance of Susan Powell case in which the obvious perpetrator did not even get arrested. If there is any academic communication studies about this, I would like a link to it. 70.95.44.93 (talk) 15:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Its an old basic rule already present in roman law but in the end justice is foremost forced to be a representation of the judicial worldview of the majority of society - which it must be to keep its moral superior position as "independent" judge. From pure judicial view or more correctly judicial logic this opens a huge portal for critics but thats just a consequence of keeping the system accepted by the majority. --Kharon (talk) 20:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

While the presumption of innocence works in a legal setting, saying that society should follow the same rules is a bit problematic:

• That means we would treat people as if they are entirely innocent, until convicted of a court. For example, priests with massive evidence of child abuse would still be left in a position to harm children, until a court found them guilty. The courts themselves acknowledge that this is a problem when they allow people to be arrested and held in custody, despite not yet having been convicted.

• We don't normally try a dead person, due to their inability to defend themselves. However, if we suspect a dead person was guilty of a murder, but haven't actually proven this is a court of law, does this mean the police should continue to investigate as if it was still an open case ? Of course not.

• In the case of crimes against blacks in the US South post-civil war, or Jews in Nazi Germany, etc., those who committed crimes might never have been charged, or been found innocent in a biased court. Should society consider them innocent ? Of course not.

• Courts sometimes release people not because they were proven innocent, but because of some procedural error, like not having been read their rights. Again, this doesn't mean we should trust the released individual with our lives.

• In some jurisdictions, a suspect who pleads no contest isn't technically found guilty.

So, for a variety of reasons, it is necessary to prejudge individuals before, and sometimes in spite of, a court ruling on guilt. Hopefully we do so with some attempt at fairness. For example, one accusation, from a known enemy, without proof, should be given far less weight than accusations from 100 people, with proof, with no reason to lie. SinisterLefty (talk) 20:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I'd speculate:

1. relative lack of obvious physical evidence compared to the average murder case
2. heavier reliance on witness testimony which is easier to disregard offhand, as it's more believable to claim one or several persons are lying than to invoke a government conspiracy
3. general public space saturation with sexual harassment claims and also public justice in general, since these days there's far more protests calling out somebody than 10 years ago, and most people have been burnt by supporting a cause that turned out to be trolling and are now wary of taking sides, or got radicalized and don't even listen to your arguments. 93.136.31.83 (talk) 02:40, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Many of the vitriolic rants against #MeToo are variations on the Just-world hypothesis, and I'd say that the sections on "guilt reduction" and "self as victim" seem especially relevant. Essentially, people like to pretend that crimes didn't happen when the available evidence (or lack thereof) makes it easier for them, and they really like to pretend that specific crimes don't happen if they imagine themselves being accused of it. I think also of the women who write about the fear their son will be accused of rape. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:53, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

You're talking about how sexual harassers justify their positions. I think even most people who have expressed opposition to a MeToo accusation aren't of that ilk. I think what OP is saying is that people who don't perpetrate sexual harassment/violence can still openly side with a totally guilty-seeming accused person, and wants to know why that happens. Another guess I can offer is polarization along gender lines, similar to how white people expressed belief that OJ Simpson is guilty, while black people claimed he was innocent. Sure he looks guilty as hell today with the evidence and in hindsight, but this was also the era of LA riots. There is a social capital element to this. Probably most people today either have experienced sexual harassment/violence, have been fairly or unfairly accused of it, or see either of those as a realistic threat in their future. This can make them less likely to review the facts of the case fairly. 93.142.92.186 (talk) 05:39, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Forgot: a few people have recommended me the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt on this topic. I haven't yet read it but it sounds like it could have some of the answers you're looking for. 93.142.92.186 (talk) 06:34, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

This is a request for speculation, opinion, or debate, and should be closed accordingly.--WaltCip (talk) 13:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

It is an assertion to say that people have been using the principle of presumption of innocence to counter accusations of sexual harassment and assault much more in comparison to other types of crimes. I am just trying to find sociological studies and evidences that would back my claim. I have no control over the adequacy or lack thereof of the answers to my questions 70.95.44.93 (talk) 14:10, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

• The court system treats innocence or guilt as a binary condition: either one or the other. However, outside of the limited scope of a court of law, people are allowed to treat suspicion on a continuum, and are allowed to treat people with varying responses based on their own assessment of where a person lies on that continuum. That is, while the courts are required to treat a person's status as a binary condition, there's no requirement that anyone else must. As an aside, the faulty "binary thinking" is why so many women's legitimate and credible evidence of sexual assault is dismissed and ignored, and those dismissals and ignorings are the main reason why women decide to not report actual sexual assaults, and the crime is massively under-reported. The standards for starting a formal investigation are, by necessity, different than the standards for punishing a person for a crime, and those standards do NOT require proof first! If they did, then we'd never be able to accuse anyone of anything if we needed to prove their guilt before accusing them. --Jayron32 14:45, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

The main point is, presumption of innocence just do not apply to usual social interaction. You may distinguish 3 levels. At state/legal level, you are innocent until proven guilty (but may be detained while investigated); this is the only level where PoI applies. At public/commercial level, you can expect to be treated just like anyone regardless of your criminal record, even proven guilty, so PoI is irrelevant. At private level, you cannot expect anything, if people want to avoid interaction, refuse to give you job or to invite you at their parties, well, they may do so freely and "I don't like you", or even "this is unfair, but other people do not like you so I have rather not you around" is reason enough, so PoI is also irrelevant.

So basically all this "Presumption of Innocence" bullshit is just that: BS. When wrongly accused, the expected legal move is to sue for Defamation (a thing that was successfully done against at least one me too leader). Modern social media make it difficult, we still do not have some sort of reverse class action providing for action against "everyone libeling me". And in any case, suing for defamation may backfire in 3 ways : Streisand effect, lack of success that will actually support the accusation or at least deliver the message that you can freely broadcast it, or even utter disaster.

bottom line: public shaming is hard to fight back.People have their live ruined, or even suicide. Mob is a bitch, and hoes will be hoes, bitching around.Gem fr (talk) 08:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

And predators will be predators, and sometimes they do the right thing and kill themselves once they're caught. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

LOL, legend has it that someone believed Epstein killed himself, seems we found him xD Gem fr (talk) 12:30, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

xD? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:44, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Independence Party of Iceland, presumably.--WaltCip (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

And what does that have to do with Epstein? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Everything has something to do with Epstein... eventually. Blueboar (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

We need a new ref desk, to address obscure riddles. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

How did Otto IV, Holy Roman Emperor die?

As I've just commented on the article talk page, our article makes two claims: that he died of disease and that he died of being beaten to death.

Any reliable sources? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:59, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Note that the two are not mutually exclusive. If he was beaten, this could have caused wounds which then became infected, causing death. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:01, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

That's not really being beaten to death. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:03, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Back then, the cause of death wasn't always apparent. If he was beaten, and there were signs of infection, then he died, it wouldn't have been clear which was the cause. He could have still died from hemorrhaging, for example. Even now, when somebody dies and they don't have an autopsy, they basically just guess at the cause of death for the death certificate. But the best we can do to determine the cause of historic deaths of that era is to scour sources for a list of the symptoms, then try to do a modern diagnosis. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Also note that William McKinley died of infection subsequent to being shot, but it's still considered to be an assassination. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

The German Wikipedia says that Otto's death was caused by diarrhea. There is no mention of anyone beating him to death. Surtsicna (talk) 16:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

That's not a cause of death, it's a symptom. Disease could cause that, perhaps with dehydration being the actual cause of death. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

At least it is more than idle speculation without doing even a tiny search. Bernd Schneidmüller: Die Welfen. Herrschaft und Erinnerung (819–1252). Stuttgart 2000, p. 266. In: Bernd Ulrich Hucker, Stefanie Hahn, Hans-Jürgen Derda (Hrsg.): Otto IV. Traum vom welfischen Kaisertum. Petersberg 2009, p. 281–288. Should be the sources for the cause of death, or symptom leading to death if we want to be pedantic.80.138.66.157 (talk) 16:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

So, he may have had a beating, but not a fatal one? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:50, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

No. No beating mentioned near the end of his life at all. I would think the claim is a hoax or vandalism. At least from what i gathered and thecomplete lack of mention of any beating leading to his death other than here. 80.138.66.157 (talk) 16:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• There's a reliable source in the article, footnoted AND directly attributed to the historian Ernst Kantorowicz, saying he was beaten to death. What is the reliable source saying he died of disease? --Jayron32 16:57, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• German Wikipedia lists a source (this is the Wikipedia translation), but it's unclear if this source is just for his will, or if it also covers the cause of death: Bernd Schneidmüller: The Welfs. Reign and Remembrance (819-1252). Stuttgart 2000, p. 266. Cf. the detailed description by Claudia Lydorf: "Who is it that we are negotiating about my life, since it is none more?" Will and death of Emperor Otto IV. In: Bernd Ulrich Hucker, Stefanie Hahn , Hans-Jürgen Derda (ed.): Otto IV. Dream of the Welf emperor. Petersberg 2009, p. 281-288. SinisterLefty (talk) 17:04, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Presumably they are used for both death and direct aftermath. Certainly is getting curious now.80.138.66.157 (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• There is always the possibility that there is a disagreement over his cause of death. The 13th century is a LONG time ago, and it is not unreasonable to say that we just don't know which version of events is certain. --Jayron32 17:10, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Of course possible but being bloodily beaten to death by clergy, of all people, seems hardly something there would be huge disagreement over, no? Still possible of course but... not like it was between two natural causes or whatever. Switched to the desktop by the way in case the IP changed. 2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E (talk) 17:17, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• You'd be surprised. Edward II of England, who lived 100 years after the aforementioned Otto either had a hot poker shoved up his ass, died by natural causes, was strangled, starved, beaten to death, etc. The ultimate answer is we have no idea how Edward II died. We are pretty sure he's dead by now, but he basically gets stuffed into prison and then disappears from the historical record. There's a lot of ex-post-facto stories circulating, and depending on how much the many-years-later historian had a reason to like or dislike Edward, the more gruesome the manner of his death becomes. The red-hot-poker-up-the-ass version is the most memorable, but it is certainly not any more certain than any of the other possibilities. For a ruler some 100 years older still than Edward II was, I would not be any more surprised that we don't have good information. --Jayron32 19:05, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• Mysterious deaths or disappearances of leaders still occur in modern times. See Disappearance of Harold Holt. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:21, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• From the article about Kantorowicz regarding the book used as source: "Instead of offering a more typical survey of laws, institutions, and important political and military achievements of Frederick's reign, the book struck a distinctly panegyrical tone, portraying Frederick as a tragic hero and the idealized embodiment of the German nation. It included no footnotes and seemed to elide historical events with more fanciful legends and propagandistic literary depictions. The work elicited a combination of bewilderment and criticism from the mainstream historical academy. Reviewers complained that it was literary myth-making and not a work of serious historical scholarship. As a result, Kantorowicz published a hefty companion volume (Ergänzungsband) in 1931 which contained detailed historical documentation for the biography." Now it seems he did try to justify himself afterwards but... is that book really something that is even reliable by Wikipedia standards, especially on its own without the companion guide? No idea what the perception was after 'expanding' the book but... this does not sound promising to be honest. But then again, it is only from a wiki article and unsourced itself haha. 2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E (talk) 17:29, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• That's a very good point; I would say in that case it seems like Kantorowicz is not a good source, and any information from it should be stricken from the article, or if it must remain, to add an explanatory note saying that most historians think his work is bullshit. --Jayron32 17:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• On top of that he was involved in German ultra-nationalism as well in his youth, so more or less when he wrote the book. Despite being part jewish. This is getting more and more bizarre lol. Medievalist Norman Cantor even went as far as saying "but for his Jewish heritage, the young Kantorowicz could be considered a Nazi in terms of his intellectual temperament and cultural values." Now that is NOT universally accepted but... yeah not a good light. Especially because the book in question was written in his younger days. Which in my mind taints each and everything the man said regarding german history. 2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

this site in german (tranlation) might state that he suffered the "thin schiszin", but ordered his own cook to beat him as penitence. You may not find that reliable.—eric 17:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Probably not good enough? Was written by one Klaus Röttger, who is not a historian but was a journalist for a local paper, if i was not stupid and actually looked for the correct person, at least. But i think that journo should be him. 2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E (talk) 17:37, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I think maybe it could be he blamed his cook for the dysentery and kicked him in the neck. A German speaker might be required.—eric 17:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry ':53E, didn't realize I was replying to one.—eric 18:29, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Here's the Google translation of the relevent bits from that source:

"A well-meaning friend sent him therefore a new drug for cleaning stomach and intestines in pill form. Whatever it contained, the effect was terrible. The entire digestion broke down. The "thin schiszin", as Eike von Repkow called the condition, probably the Ruhr, in the language of his time a little disrespectful, became so bad that it was said that on the night of the 12th to the 13th of May ... penitential, he humbled himself, because he was full of "unspeakable remorse," in every way imaginable. He ordered his cooks to kick him on the neck, threw himself on the ground with bared back and let himself be beaten with rods until even the monks were moved by "such penitence"...In short, it came to an end... However, he took his time...But on 19 May 1218 the time had come: the Emperor died peacefully, more or less calmed down."

This leaves the possibility the self-imposed beating killed him eventually, or a disease caused by the pill, or just poisoning from the pill. We remain as confused as ever. SinisterLefty (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Small addition by a native speaker, Ruhr is dysentry. Did not get translated. And the 'rods' with which he was chastised is also a rather imperfect translation i think. Or are those those parts of 'bushes' or twigs bundled together called rods in english? Like as an unrelated example for practically the same thing: the german Santa canes children that don't behave. That sort of thing was used when chastising oneself or having people do it. Twigs and the like that break the skin after a while, which surely does not help a dying man, but is not a 'real' beating either. Or were there more substantial objects used when doing pennance? That still leaves the thing with the cooks though. 2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E (talk) 18:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I feel sorry for those who live in the Ruhr valley. :-) SinisterLefty (talk) 18:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

If you ever been there, it is shocking how apt the name actually is :P 2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E (talk) 18:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Dysentery does cause diarrhea, so that's consistent. SinisterLefty (talk) 18:49, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

2003:D6:2729:FF5A:18F7:C82E:F8DA:53E -- see explanation of "birch rod" under birching... -- AnonMoos (talk) 06:32, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

There is a primary source describing Otto's death, the Narratio de morte Ottonis iv., allegedly an eyewitness report. I haven't been able to find an online version to check, but as I understand it, Otto was terminally ill from a complete collapse of the digestive system. Fearing eternal damnation (he seems to have been excommunicated from the Church or at least in conflict with it) he ordered himself to be beaten as a means of atonement. Whether the actual cause of death was the illness or the beating is anybody's guess and not terribly interesting. As to the reliability of the narratio, this is for historians to judge, but it's probably the only source that we have. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

From here, Thesaurus novus anecdotorum. p. 1373. but looks to be the wrong page. Milman, H. H. (1883). History of Latin christianity. pp. 58–9. cites and has an english summary.—eric 18:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

The page is correct, but the volume is the wrong one. You want tomus tertius. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:49, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

::::Just to clarify, that's not a primary source, but a contemporary account. Unless Otto was liveblogging his own demise, it isn't a primary source. Since the person writing is not directly involved in the action, it's a secondary source, though one that is contemporary to the events. --Jayron32 12:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Primary source begs to differ. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:40, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. If it is an eyewitness account, it would be a primary source. I had mistakenly thought it was just the story collected by an historian contemporary to Otto. My bad. --Jayron32 15:22, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Winkelmann, E. A. (1873). Philipp von Schwaben und Otto IV. von Braunschewig. pp. 463–8. looks to have a long account of 13-19 May (with an expansive footnote for "on 18 May he made a fine testament"). German and Fraktur.—eric 15:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Winkelmann tells the same story — not surprisingly as he also cites the narratio as his principal source. The beating happened on May 18th, he laid down his will later the same day, and he died on the 19th. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:28, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

grapes vinegar for religious Muslims - allowed?

Is it allowed for religious Muslims to consume vinegar that made of grapes? I'm asking it because I know that vine is forbidden for muslim but I'm not sure about vinegar. 93.126.116.89 (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

There are many many many different sects of Islam, so to answer universally for every religious Muslim on earth would be nearly impossible. However, there are some forums and online FAQs and the like where I have found some information on this. Without wanting to recommend any to you, this contains a good collection of possible beginnings for your research. --Jayron32 21:10, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

See Alcohol in Islam. Vinegar that is properly made will contain only minuscule traces of ethanol, no more than in many other foods such as fruits, because bacteria make vinegar by digesting the ethanol. But any devout Muslim should seek advice from an imam or other Islamic authority if they have a religious concern. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:04, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Also mentioned in our article on najis. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:11, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

This page, My Halal Kitchen says: 'Vinegar is a condiment that was favored by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It has numerous health benefits and flavors everything from salads and cooked vegetables and acts as a meat tenderizer in marinades and more. In a hadith narrated by Ayesha, Muslim and Ibn Maja, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, “Allah has put blessing in vinegar, for truly it was used by the Prophets before me.”' Alansplodge (talk) 11:25, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

We aren't a good source for information about properly pious practice of any religion. The questioner might find the Islam Stackexchange useful. I'm not religious, but I find the debate there about about the proper practice of Islam fascinating. The people answering questions very similar to yours are, I'm sure, all practicing Muslims, but probably not authority figures, though they give scriptural references pretty thoroughly. Content warning: sometimes misogyny and violence come up as topics there. Avoid it if that might upset you. Temerarius (talk) 02:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

November 19

The goat tower at Cholmondeley Castle

Copying this from resource exchange, per recommendation there:

So there's this goat tower at Cholmondeley Castle, and the photo of it we have:

looks like it could easily be forty+ years old, which means it would be the second goat tower built. There's nothing on the current website for Cholomondeley Castle about it at all, as far as I can tell, which is another reason I think it might predate most of the other goat towers, as goat towers have become a viral meme in the past ten years and if it was a recent addition I think they'd be using it in their marketing as the only frickin' goat tower in the UK, but the closest I find is a 1999 photograph and a 2010 brochure where they mention it and call it 'unique'. Can anyone find a mention of when it was built? Or mentions of it at all earlier than 1981? Thanks for any help! --valereee (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Suggest you give them a call or send an email; contact details are on their website.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:53, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Although that wouldn't help with the article, as an email not a published source. None of my usual Google-fu found anything helpful I'm afraid. Alansplodge (talk) 11:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Nothing in the 1985 heritage site entries for Cholmondeley Castle or Scotch Farm, (the tower is NE of the latter) i think they would only list outbuildings built before 1948 tho. I kind of remember having better luck finding older aerial photos for Britain, but everything now seems to be pay-walled.—eric 14:58, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, email wouldn't be usable, but at least I'd know whether it's even worth continuing to look for, so maybe I'll try that! Thanks all! :) --valereee (talk) 18:11, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

November 21

Did Darwin say this?

I’ve seen the following quote floating around the Internet attributed to Charles Darwin. Usually it’s either quoted approvingly by racists on sites such as Chimpmania, or else by creationists to attack him.

“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.”

Given that other racist quotes have been falsely attributed to Darwin in the past by creationists and racists for their respective purposes (one such quote was from Thomas Dixon’s novel, The Clansmen), I’m skeptical the above quote was actually Darwin. But you never know. 2600:1014:B024:12AF:D8C:772B:5474:843E (talk) 23:20, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Darwin, Charles (1871). The Decent of Man (PDF). Vol. 1. London. p. 201.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)—eric 23:37, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

See also this section int the Decent of Man article, there is probably more commentary than Why Freud Was Wrong, but that is all that is mentioned in that section.—eric 23:55, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Since we're citing sources, perhaps we could cite it correctly. The word is Descent. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 03:54, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Especially as there's nothing decent about racism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:03, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

spelling is beneath me.—eric 04:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Then kindly bid your adieux to the human race. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

of all my failures, i never imagined spelling would be the one to class me with the savages.—eric 20:36, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

No, spelling being beneath you means you are above. Non-human, for sure, yet not savage but divine! ---Sluzzelin talk 22:28, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

ISIL map

I'm sure most of you have seen the famous black map depicting the areas of the world the ISIL/Daesh allegedly wants to conquer and rule. These are some randomly selected sites showing it:
http://www.geocurrents.info/geopolitics/self-declared-states-geopolitics/islamic-states-aspirational-map
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/in-short-xcqff89rx
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/india-in-2020-if-isis-plans-succeed-287500-2015-08-10
https://roguegeopolitics.com/2014/08/18/isis-is-going-to-change-everything-in-the-middle-east/
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/india-in-2020-if-isis-plans-succeed-287500-2015-08-10
https://www.unilad.co.uk/news/isis-reveal-terrifying-map-of-their-planned-global-expansion/
http://sfppr.org/2014/09/fighting-for-jihad-isis-maps-its-five-to-ten-year-master-plan/
What I'd like to know is if this map is considered to have some degree of "officiality" by Western scholars. If it is/was reflecting the real plans/desires of ISIL members, even if only for a period of time or for a small fraction of supporters. Is it from deprecated sources? Thank you! --2.37.200.57 (talk) 12:03, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I haven't seen it before... I don't know how official it is, but it's basically what Wikimedia Commons calls an "anachronous map". -- AnonMoos (talk)

Western Yuan dynasty

During the collapse of the Yuan dynasty were regions like Tibet, Xinjiang, and Qinghai also rested from Yuan control by rebellion, or were they voluntarily surrendered to the Hongwu emperor? déhanchements (talk) 20:45, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

The Tibet situation is... complicated. According to Sino-Tibetan relations during the Ming dynasty there is not widespread scholarly agreement over the exact relationship. I'll let you read that to come to your own conclusions. Xinjiang was never fully controlled by the Yuan, it traded hands between them and the Chagatai Khanate. After the fall of the Yuan, Kara Del took over the area. According to Salar people, Qinghai would have been under Ming control as early as 1370. --Jayron32 16:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

We were looking it up at the same time! I'll put my answer anyway, even though it is the same in essence, since it includes some extra links. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:02, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Ming_dynasty#Relations_with_Tibet and Sino-Tibetan relations during the Ming dynasty say that the region was never really under either Yuan or Ming control, but this is contradicted by Tibet_under_Yuan_rule, which says that Yuan did administer the region, but lost control in the 14th century with the founding of the Phagmodrupa_dynasty, who were never under Ming rule.

Xinjiang#Mongol_period says that simultaneous with the rise of the Hongwu emperor in the mid 14th century, the region fractured and was ruled by numerous Persianized Mongol Khans simultaneously until the 17th century.(That is, it does not seem to ever have been under Ming control.)

Qinghai#History merely says Most of Qinghai was once also a short time under the control of early Ming dynasty, but later gradually lost to the Khoshut Khanate founded by the Oirats; sorry no clear answer there.

(Further reading: Yuan_dynasty#Decline_of_the_empire, History_of_the_Yuan_dynasty#Later_years_of_the_dynasty , History_of_the_Yuan_dynasty#End_of_Yuan_rule, Red Turban Rebellion, Northern Yuan dynasty, Ming_dynasty#Founding) 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:02, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Opposite of Bradley effect

Is there a theory that is the opposite of Bradley effect where the non-white candidate was not doing well in the polls but eventually won the election? Also, is there a theory that talks about a non-white candidate doing well in the polls and eventually won the election? Donmust90 (talk) 23:16, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

article says that

Some have suggested that President Barack Obama may have encountered both the Bradley effect, and a "reverse" Bradley effect, during the 2008 Democratic presidential primary elections.

So obviously there is a theory of a reverse-Bradley effect.

Also the world of theories is unbound, but when the poll-predicted candidate actually win the election, there is not much to tell, is there? "I told you so" would be the common name of such theory, I guess.

Gem fr (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

November 22

Post-hearings impeachment schedule

Is it known when the House of Representatives approves articles of impeachment and when a trial will be held in the Senate (or when something happens after the hearings)? Impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump currently doesn't seem to mention that. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 09:26, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

They've said in the House they want to wrap it up by year's end. There's no indication what, if anything, the Senate will do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 13:06, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Lenina

On this map from 1812, if zoomed and panned to Voskresensk area near Moscow in the upper part, there's a place seemingly labelled as Lénina (slightly to the right from Voskresensk). A Russian overlay of that part on modern map was inconclusive for me and a quick Russian search for that place (Ленина) shows nothing relevant. Is it indeed Lenina or something else? Brandmeister^talk 15:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I looked at some of it. There are three problems. First, that map is not to scale at all. It is very bad. My best guess at finding anything was to follow the Moskva River. Second, many names have changed - some drastically - over the years. So, you have to pick a few places that haven't changed (or changed very little) and use those as points to triangulate. Again, the scale is way off. Third, when a city name stopped being used in one area, it was often used in another area. So, searching a map by town name will likely take you to a completely different location. All I can say is that there are few "Lenina" references left. Most references to Lenin have been destroyed or at least renamed. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 15:52, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

That obviously predates Lenin's birth, so couldn't be named after him. For quicker accessibility I made a crop. Brandmeister^talk 16:44, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

The Voskresensk on the map isn't that Voskresensk. It's an older name for Istra, Istrinsky District, Moscow Oblast. The "Rojestvino" is still around as Rozhdestveno (ru:Рождествено (село, городской округ Истра)), and "Talitsa" as Talitsy (ru:Талицы (городской округ Истра)). Your "Lenina" seems to be Lenino (ru:Ленино (Московская область)). The Russian Wikipedia article says that this name was given in the 19th century by a landowner who gave the village to his daughter, Yelena, and that the older name had been Lupikha. --Amble (talk) 17:52, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Brandmeister^talk 18:39, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Titusville, Ohio?

The article on the recently-deceased Frank Joranko has him born in Titusville, Ohio, which is a red link. The source is a newspaper clipping from a newspaper in Benton Harbor, Michigan. He did go to high school in Ohio, but I suspect that the Titusville where he was born was Titusville, Pennsylvania. Can anyone either attest the existence of a Titusville, Ohio now or around 1931, when he was born (my research hasn't turned up anything), or a confirmation that his place of birth was in Pennsylvania. His published obituaries are quite detailed, but do not mention a place of birth. --Xuxl (talk) 15:56, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

GNIS has no such place as Titusville, Ohio. They are very comprehensive, and if it does exist or has ever existed, I would take GNIS as authoritative. --Jayron32 16:04, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

There is clearly no such place. The reference used in the Joranko article is a blurb from 1973 about him making a speech in Michigan. It be gone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

There's a scarcity of early information about Joranko on Ancestry.com. The 1940 census is missing, at least under that name. The Ohio death birth index says he was born in Ohio, but no town given. His ancestors came from what is now Ukraine and settled initially in coal mining country in West Virginia before moving to the Cleveland, Ohio area at some point. He was born about 6 months after his parents were married, so maybe they were trying to obscure the past somewhat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:35, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

And by the way, that dubious citation was posted 9 years ago,[1] by an editor who's still active, though there's no guarantee he would recall much about an old edit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:12, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Tiltonsville, Ohio?—eric 19:17, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Class of '48, Euclid High School, Euclid, Ohio.—eric 19:51, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

The Euclid part is well-established. Tiltonsville is theoretically possibly, being not far from West Virginia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. The original 1973 clipping is viewable through the link provided in the article's references, and it does mention a birth in Titusville, Ohio. However, it is likely mistaken given the absence of proof of Titusville's existence, now or then. But it doesn't look as if there are enough elements to establish what the correct birthplace is. Xuxl (talk) 21:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

November 23

Can US TV channels refuse the highest bidder solely cause they don't like your candidate?

For a TV commercial slot. What about campaign ads in other countries? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:38, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

No idea about other countries, but in the US this is covered by the equal-time rule, which only applies to broadcasters running ads on behalf of candidates. It does not apply to running news or documentaries about a candidate or their campaign, nor does it apply to ads run by people not running for office and also unaffiliated/not-coordinating with someone who is. Basically, "please vote for me" and "please vote for that guy" are treated differently. Broadcasters are singled out because space is limited on public airwaves. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:56, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

For the UK see Party political broadcast, you can't run political advertising per se on television or radio. See also Campaign advertising. A number of countries ban ads purely to stop those parties with a bigger budget drowning out the others. Nanonic (talk) 05:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Apo of Atimaha

• Bishop Museum Archives, MS 5-S9, Apo of Atimaha, Encouagement aux indigènes Huahine qui vont aux combats, trans. by Reverend Orsmond (September 20, 1849) ms.

I came across this source in Empire of Love: Histories of France and the Pacific, I am try to figure about what is it exactly about and who was Apo of Atimaha. KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:18, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Apo, doyen des Raatiras d'Atimaha (ile Moorea)

Cuzent, G. (1872). Voyage aux îles Gambier. p. 130. Doyen, raatira, Atimaha Valley, Moorea.—eric 15:12, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

That's the wrong location for the valley in geonames, see point #13 on this map.—eric 15:47, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Apo seems to have had a ceremonial role; in Annuaire historique universel ou histoire politique pour 1855 p. 300 there is a description of "Apo, doyen des raatiras d'Atimaha" delivering a funerary speech to (presumably) Pōmare IV:

"Hail to you, Pomare Queen of Tahiti! Hail to you in the name of the true God! We come here, we chiefs, judges, mutois (constables) and raatiras (freemen) of the districts, to salute you and to weep with you [for] the death of your son".

(D'oh! I've just realised that this is the same text linked above in Voyage aux îles Gambier, but if your French is even worse than mine, that's what it says - probably!) Alansplodge (talk) 11:10, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

BTW, the title of the source, "Encouragement aux indigènes Huahine qui vont aux combats", means: "Encouragement to the Huahine indigenous people who go to battle". The text of it doesn't seem to be available online, but it probably refers to the Franco-Tahitian War, during which a force of French marines landed on Huahine but were defeated at the Battle of Maeva (there's an article to write if anyone is bored). The underlying cause of the war was a somewhat un-Godly dispute between Anglophone Protestant missionaries and French Catholics, the latter being supported by their government as a pretext for colonial expansion. This article demonstrates Protestant support for the Huahine locals whom it calls "our afflicted brethren". The same article mentions a "a beautiful letter which she [Queen Pomare] has addressed to her people here" outlining the details of the battle and I wonder if this is could be the text in question? Alansplodge (talk) 15:48, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

There may be an extract in this doctoral thesis: google for "Apo, Huahinean Uar Chant"(can't get link to work) page 164 in the PDF, 149 in the text. I am not sure that this is what we are looking for, there is a note for "Orsmond's annotation to Apo, Huahinean War Chant" on p. 150 in the PDF, 135 in the text.—eric 16:07, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Different sources, so possibly not the correct chant. The quoted piece is from Orsmond, J. M. (1816). The Arioi: War in Tahiti. which is a published volume of Ormond's papers. Roussier, from the note connected to Apo was published in "Documents ethnologiques taïtiens...". Revue d'ethnographie et des traditions popularies. 9: 188–206. 1928..—eric 16:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The journal is in the HathiTrust catalog[2] so you might have some luck asking at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request.—eric 16:50, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

fastest growing language

Which languages are considered as language of the future? Some say Chinese Mandarin, some websites say Spanish.

English will always remain one of the most spoken second language. When I search online, I get results of most spoken language for native speakers and spoken as second language.

Europe, Russia, Japan, USA, Canada has low birth rate while Africa and South Asia has higher birth rate. So, it's possible some European language speakers are decreasing every year.

In future which languages are more likely to be used for international relations, business? -- 13:12, 23 November 2019 Gökkusagipiyanisti

The fastest-growing language (percentagewise) is likely to be a relatively small one, not one of the world's major languages... AnonMoos (talk) 15:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

I would recommend the questioner inquire somewhere with experts on the topic, for example users on Language Log. It would help if the questioner told us where they live, where they want to live, and what they want to do. Or call the EU. Does anyone have their phone number? Temerarius (talk) 20:05, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

A candidate mentioned in several future-set works of science fiction of the 1960s was Portugese, on the assumption that Brazil's economic and population growth would continue until it became a globally dominant nation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.209.178 (talk) 21:57, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Viagens Interplanetarias... -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, AnonMoos: I'd forgotten the trope went back as far as the 1940s. I've also seen it alluded to by other writers than L. Sprague de Camp. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.209.178 (talk)~

One opinion: "My opinion is that for the next few decades, yes, it [English] will stay as the Lingua Franca for the entire planet, as more people are learning this language every day. China for example is teaching it's people English at a very fast pace to assist in their goal of being the dominant economic power in the world. I do feel that the other two languages mentioned above, Chinese and Spanish, will become increasingly important global languages that in 50 years will be essential for anybody doing international business to know. You won't have to be perfectly fluent in these languages, however having enough of a grasp of them for even basic communication would be a huge benefit to almost anybody". [3]

And another: "In many parts of the world, English is still regarded as a passport to success. So is the future of English at risk? I don't think so, although its global dominance may well diminish over the coming decades". BBC - Can English remain the 'world's favourite' language?. Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the Trump-Ukraine scandal, is what Trump and his associated did a crime?

I understand from the Mueller Report that Trump can't be charged with a crime while in office, but several associates of his were for their role in the Russia scandal. Isn't it the same case here, or did he and associates not break the law regarding Ukraine and quid pro quo?

It would have to be proven in a court of law. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I'm curious if what they "allegedly" did a crime to begin with

• Actually, none of Trump’s associates were charged with a crime “due to their role in the Russia scandal”. They were charged with crimes that were unrelated to the Russia scandal (but discovered while investigating it). Subtle, but important difference. Blueboar (talk) 22:02, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

That's incorrect in at least one case, that of Michael Flynn. --Amble (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Nope... Flynn was convicted of lying to the FBI over a different issue. Yes it was about him talking to Russians (which is why it came to light during Muller’s investigation), but it had nothing to do with the election meddling accusation. Blueboar (talk) 00:24, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The OP and your response said “the Russia scandal”, not “accused of election meddling.” I think you’re shifting the goalposts here. --Amble (talk) 13:47, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Even by your new criterion, “nothing to do with the election meddling accusation” is not correct. Flynn’s communications appeared to be undercutting penalties imposed on Russia in response to election meddling. --Amble (talk) 14:02, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Flynn may also be in violation of the Logan act, though that law has never been effectively enforced. Depending on how random Rudy Giuliani was flailing around, he might also have been in violation, unless all his actions are authorized by Trump. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:16, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

With the caveat that I am native to and live on a different continent: my doubtless imperfect understanding is that while it may or may not be the case (being thus far untested by the SCOTUS) that the POTUS him/her/themself is above the law, that does not apply to others who may carry out illegal acts ordered by the POTUS. The concept of Criminal orders may apply, as might the terms of various officials' Oaths of Office. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.209.178 (talk) 17:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

With respect to general crimes, you are probably right. But the Logan act criminalizes unauthorized negotiations with foreign powers, and the president can authorize such negotiations. So if he gave Giuliani carte blanche, Giuliani may well be guilty of extortion, bribery, and conspiracy to illegally overthrow the US constitution (and could be prosecuted for that), but he would not be in violation of the Logan act. If, on the other hand, he had a limited mandate, or none at all, and negotiated for the delivery of two pounds of flathead nails on behalf of the US, he would be technically in violation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:09, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

November 24

Identification of place - function

Hi Folks, does anybody know what the Hochsee-Wehrsportverein "Hansa" in Neustadt is? In the 1940's people took courses there. scope_creep^Talk 16:29, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Your link is to a disambiguation page. Do you know which of the 22(?) places in Germany of that name is intended? "Hochsee-Wehrsportverein" suggests a German Naval ("High Seas Fleet") sports organisation, whose branch in Neustadt may have been named "Hansa" (see the Hanseatic league), so we may at least be looking for somewhere on the coast! Neustadt, Hamburg might be a candidate, as the port of Hamburg was indeed in the Hanseatic league.

Is this concerning the article on Harro Schulze-Boysen (which indeed itself links to the disambiguation page)? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.217.209.178 (talk) 17:37, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi 2.217.209.178, Yip, I found out what it was, by accident. It was a sailing school. You were very close and I think if I didn't find it out by accident, I could have drawn a idea from you. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 17:43, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Trying to find a French source

I am trying to find out the actual title of this source and which issue it is in.

• Bulletin de la Société des Études Océaniennes, Issues 200-211. Société des Études Océaniennes. 1977.

Text of the source:

• http://anaite.upf.pf/items/show/758?output=omeka-xml
• http://bibnum.upf.pf/items/show/758?output=omeka-xml

KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:37, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The "Société des Études Océaniennes" society still exists and a visit to their site [4] is suggesting that the title of the source is the one given to the Bulletin. In other words there doesn't seem to be compilations from sources other than works directed by or submitted to the society. --Askedonty (talk) 20:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Did you see the PDF link in the xml[5]? Does that help?—eric 23:06, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

November 25

bible stories (Copyrighted? by 7th day Adventist Arthur Maxwell) vs Watchtower INC "my book with bible stories"

Hi there, I could compare today the published books of Arthur Maxwell and the book of the shareholder company (I think their copyright is hold by I.B.S.A. international bible student association ?) which is published in yellow, later republished in a blue cover, called "my book with bible stories".
There is really no doubt for me, that the organisation Watchtower has stolen because many pictures have been recovered 1:1, other ones just have some significant marks reprinted (not repainted!) in a new picture and also the full layout and everything else what can be copied, has been copied or let me just say it: STOLEN.
As much as I have found out, the 7th day adventist never suit the Watchtower for stealing their pictures of their book, published by Arthur Maxwell and I am wondering why.
Did they bought the pictures and were allowed to remake it or did the 7th day Adventist just having a good deep sleep and haven't discovered yet that their copyrighted books are abused by another religious cult and foreign printing house? even if there would be no copyright, the adventist must have any right to suit because their "product" is used by another religious cult unless they aren't associated. --46.167.62.33 (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC)