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June 1

June 4

Henriette de Robespierre (1761-1780)

Maximilien, Charlotte and Augustin de Robespierre were all revolutionaries until their deaths, 1794 and 1834. Their sister Henriette was died in Arras on March 25, 1780, nine years before the revolution. What was her relationship with their brothers, and had their same political views? --Trottapiano (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Following the death of her mother, she was separated from her brothers at the age of four or five to be brought up by aunts. At the age of six or seven, she was sent to a convent school in Tournai and was still there when she died. [1] It seems unlikely that she would have had any exposure to political ideas, or much (if any) contact with her brothers. Alansplodge (talk) 10:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but can you search more for political ideas? --Trottapiano (talk) 10:46, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If this teenager had held any un-convent-ional political ideas (and they had not been suppressed by the nuns but been preserved in the historical record), then surely this would have been noted, not only for its curiosity value, but also because the revelation would have caused strong ripples when, inevitably, thrown into the nature versus nurture debate. --Lambiam 11:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but if you could find something, please white it on my talk page. --Trottapiano (talk) 11:28, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How would you see it, against the white background? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm only interested to know if Henriette was different from her brothers and sister. Please, someone can help me? --Trottapiano (talk) 12:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Trottapiano, Bugs was merely joking about your typo ("white" instead of "write") but meant no harm. It's a tough one, because Henriette died so early (most of what we know about her sister Charlotte, e.g., happened during Charlotte's adult life. I tried French sources too, but haven't been able to find much beyond what's written in Alansplodge's link yet. I'll give it another try later (which could mean tomorrow). Thank you for your interest and efforts in creating that article! ---Sluzzelin talk 15:04, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, Sluzzelin. Write in my talk page all you can find about her. --Trottapiano (talk) 15:07, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The French wiki article on Charlotte sources its information on Henriette to Charlotte's memoir Mémoires de Charlotte Robespierre sur ses deux frères which you can read online - I'm having trouble with the new google books interface but I'm hoping that link will take you to page 46 which is the first place she talks about her childhood with her sister, but as Sluzzelin says it's very scanty information. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The presentation on archive.org is much easier to read and navigate. See Mémoires de Charlotte Robespierre sur ses deux frères (p. 46). I believe that all the public domain books digitised by Google are also on the Internet Archive. BTW, there's a link you can click on the new Google Books that takes you back to the old format, which curiously is a big improvement on the new one. Alansplodge (talk) 11:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Alansplodge! Completely agree.70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:26, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have time to read that book so, if someone can, please write in my talk page if there are any information. Thank you. --Trottapiano (talk) 12:10, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't really add anything, except that Maximillian didn't trust his sisters to look after his pigeons when he was sent off to school at the age of 11, that they were reunited every year in the school holidays, and that the loss of Henrietta changed his character to "sad and melancholy". Alansplodge (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

LFPIA

What's an LFPIA? I received an email from a person in Canada I've never heard of before, signed Firstname Lastname PhD LFPIA. (I'm an academic, and the email referred to one of my publications, so this isn't particularly bizarre.) I've run a Google search, but I found virtually nothing other than https://www.planning.org.au/sacontent/history, which has a bunch of oral history interviews with people from South Australia with LFPIA as postnominal letters. Upon finding this webpage, my first thought was "licensed financial planner in Australia", but the page appears to be talking about planning in the land use sense (e.g. urban planning) rather than all kinds of planning. Nyttend backup (talk) 13:42, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Life Fellow of the Planning Institute of Australia. --Jayron 32 13:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c)The Planning Institute of Australia has, amongst other members, Life Fellows. So LFPIA = Life Fellow of the Planning Institute of Australia. Life Fellowship is Awarded to long-standing Fellows as recognition of a notable and lasting contribution and distinguished service to both PIA and the profession as a whole. The Life Fellow status is more likely to be considered for a person approaching retirement after a long distinguished career. DuncanHill (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The person's email address is soandso@suchandsuch.com.au, so I guess she must have spent her career in Australia before moving to Canada. Thanks! Nyttend backup (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why did Robinson become Dawson?

Our article on Geoffrey Dawson says "His original last name was Robinson, but he changed it in 1917", but does not tell us why. Can anyone find the reason? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Archives Hub says he "changed his name to Dawson in 1917 when he inherited the family estate in Yorkshire from his aunt, Margaret Dawson." ---Sluzzelin talk 16:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, thought it might be something like that. DuncanHill (talk) 16:32, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And now I found this, looks like a nice estate! DuncanHill (talk) 16:35, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kaiser Bill & HMS Victory

In Rowse, A. L. (1961). All Souls and Appeasement. London: Macmillan and Co Ltd. p. 93. Rowse describes visiting Berlin with Adam von Trott. Whilst there they visited von Trott's uncle, a von Schweinitz, who had a flat in the Berliner Schloss. He mentions seeing the "big desk made of timbers from Nelson's Victory" in the Kaiser's study. Lady Rumbold, wife of Sir Horace Rumbold, 9th Baronet the British ambassador at the time, wrote "In his study is the famous table on which he signed the order for the mobilisation of the Army on 1st August 1914. This writing table is made out of wood from The Victory, and the huge inkstand is a model of it, with the famous Nelson signal ‘England expects etc.’ in coloured flags. Curious isn’t it?" So, where are the desk and inkstand now? Do we have any pictures of them? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to Call To Arms Over By Christmas: Outbreak of War by David Bilton, the desk was a present to Kaiser Bill from Queen Victoria. Alansplodge (talk) 16:34, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

She spoilt that boy. DuncanHill (talk) 16:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. "The monarch’s Neo-Baroque desk, as well, will once again be displayed in the emperor’s former study, a century after it was removed from the New Palace". Exhibition - THE NEW PALACE IN 1918: BETWEEN THE MONARCHY AND THE WEIMAR REPUBLIC. Whether that's the same desk I don't know, perhaps he had several. There's a photo here which shows the saddle that the Kaiser sat on instead of a chair, but no ship model is visible. Alansplodge (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's the desk from the New Palace at Sans Souci, he was allowed to take vast amounts of furniture from there into exile. DuncanHill (talk) 18:22, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I found this, shewing two desks, and this shewing one of his study in the Berliner Schloss. DuncanHill (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here is Kaiser Bill's desk in the Museum Huis Doorn, with weird saddle-chair but no ship model.

This source and this one say that the 1914 mobilisation order was signed on the Victory desk in the New Palace. Alansplodge (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The order was dated "Berlin". DuncanHill (talk) 09:18, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And it seems he spoke from the balcony of the Berliner Schloss on the 1st August. DuncanHill (talk) 10:37, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've found a couple of other sources that say it was at "the Schloss". Curious that there can be any doubt about such a pivotal event. Alansplodge (talk) 11:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Mind you neither the Kaiser nor Bethmann-Hollweg seem to think it important enough to mention in their memoirs. DuncanHill (talk) 11:59, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a desk-shaped hole in the HMS Victory that tourists view today? Just wondering if a lot of the original ship went to souvenirs like this?70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:57, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Brennan has carved an entire HMS Victory from timbers from HMS Victory. DuncanHill (talk) 21:29, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When they cut out the piece for the Kaiser's desk, they patched up the hole with timbers from the original Ship of Theseus. --Amble (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the bookcase from HMS Crushing Defeat for his exile? Clarityfiend (talk) 20:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Victory was already nearly 50 years old at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805 and has since undergone several extensive restorations, 1814-1816, 1922-1928 and 1955. [2] Apparently nearly all of her external planking has been replaced; I have a small billet of oak from the 1920s work which was sold to defray the cost. Alansplodge (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 5

Shi'a Muslim-majority areas in northern India?

Why exactly does this map show Shi'a Muslim-majority areas in northern India? :

https://www.amazon.com/Historic-Map-Georges-Lafosse-Vintage/dp/B086SJWCHB

What are these areas and who exactly are the Shi'a Muslims who live there in such huge numbers? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 04:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that map may be interpreted as Shi'a Muslims forming a majority there. Any coloured dots shown represent a variety of Islam; other religions are not shown at all. The area seems to be mainly Uttar Pradesh. We have an article on Shi'a Islam in the Indian subcontinent, which states that the capital of Uttar Pradesh, Lucknow, is considered the centre of India's Shi'ite Muslim community. See also Chota Imambara and Azadari in Lucknow. --Lambiam 09:43, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Islam in Uttar Pradesh doesn't help much on this question. Alansplodge (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sufism in India mentions Madariyya, "a Sufi order (tariqa) popular in North India, especially in Uttar Pradesh.." Perhaps this also counts as a "variety of Islam"? Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This order is, unlike most Sufi orders, "non-denominational", not requiring its followers to profess themselves adherents of either the Sunni or the Shi'a doctrines. I expect they would not wish to be classified as a "variety" of Islam. --Lambiam 14:53, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

bandanas in the workplace

When I was a child, I've seen young women and girls wearing bandanas on their heads while doing chores or their jobs. Those types of workers also did the same thing in Norma Rae [3]. How should I describe the way the bandanas are worn?2603:7000:8106:C149:5D87:D175:7D55:B870 (talk) 13:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Normally described as a headscarf, the usage you describe is in Headscarf#Use while working. I also found a video; How to Tie a 1940s Headscarf. During World War II, women working in factories wore them to stop their hair getting dirty and to prevent long hair getting caught in machinery. Rosie the Riveter is a famous example. Alansplodge (talk) 13:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat related, the actress Veronica Lake famously had to change her signature hairstyle during WW2 at government request, to prevent women factory workers from imitating it... AnonMoos (talk) 18:32, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

~~The iconic World War II poster of Rosie the Riveter,~~ "We Can Do It!"~~, sports this "fashion accessory".~~ Clarityfiend (talk) 20:47, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, Alansplodge beat me to it, but at least I can provide a link to the poster. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not just in the USA, see Ruby Loftus Screwing a Breech-ring (not quite such a snappy title). I also found this Australian article. Alansplodge (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It may not be snappy, but it's raised many a smile over the years. DuncanHill (talk) 21:27, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm referring to the 1970s. (Norma Rae, which was released in 1979, showed women wearing bandanas differently.)2603:7000:8106:C149:5D87:D175:7D55:B870 (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen the film, but I expect there was the same rationale as their parents' generation, just a different style. Alansplodge (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See also Do-rag. Matt Deres (talk) 16:59, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Walter M. Miller's Darfsteller

Our SF group is, on alternate months, reading either a novel or a short story. This Friday, we discussed The Darfsteller by Walter M. Miller Jr. (of A Canticle for Leibowitz fame). We noticed, among other things, an apparent break in tone, style and message in the last about two pages. Up to then, it was a melancholic story of an out-of-work actor grasping at straws to save "the theater". But then it ends with an optimistic "let go of the old, humans are the creative species, embrace the new", very much in the same vein as Heinlein's "specialisation is for insects". Does anybody know if this epilogue has always been part of the story? The Darfsteller was first published in 1955 by Campbell in Astounding Stories, and we suspect that the editor insisted on this final twist (which is very much in line with Campbell's philosophy, but not, as far as I can tell, Miller's). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the ending was changed at Campbell's behest, and the first published version was that in Astounding, is it not a certainty that the epilogue was already part of that version? The only way we might find out then whether it was changed is from a preserved version of the initially submitted typescript. Campbell's influence was so huge that, reportedly, aspiring authors already moulded their stories even before submission, conforming their endings to the notion of the indomitable spirit of man prevailing against all odds. --Lambiam 10:33, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed. The question is if that segment was in Miller's original draft. It certainly is in the original Astounding copy (which can be found online with a bit of Google-Fu). And it also is in the Dark Benedictions collection of Miller's short stories. In 1955, Miller was already fairly established as a writer (it's the year the First Canticle came out, too). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:15, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wilhelm F.R?

Further to the discussion above about Wilhelm II's desk, The Kaiser’s Order for German Mobilization (August 1, 1914) shows his signature as (if I'm reading this correctly) "Wilhem F.R.". I can't think what "F.R." might stand for, can anyone enlighten me? Alansplodge (talk) 21:07, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The signature is definitely "Wilhelm". 89.243.13.32 (talk) 21:10, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Führer des Reiches? 89.243.13.32 (talk) 21:14, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. Führer is a different megalomaniac and a different world war. The signature shown at Wilhelm II, German Emperor has the "R", which in this context almost certainly stands for "Rex" (King). I don't know if the "F" is an "F" or maybe a "7". If it's an "F", it could stand for "Friedericus" or "Friederich", his actual first name. But I think Duncan (below) has it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's an F, looks more like a J or perhaps an I, in Fraktur. DuncanHill (talk) 21:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In classical Fraktur fonts there is no distinction between the I and J majuscules.^[4] In later versions, a distinction has been created by making the I less tall. --Lambiam 10:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think it's an I. IR = Imperator Rex. Emperor (of Germany) and King (of Prussia). DuncanHill (talk) 21:21, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Imperator Rex (like "Victoria R I")? 89.243.13.32 (talk) 21:24, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See here. DuncanHill (talk) 21:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, that must be it - those Continental types and their dodgy handwriting! (I thought intitially it was a number 7, but settled on a cursive F).

Interestingly, I had a go at following-up the plausible suggestion of User:89.243 and found:

Majestät unser allergnädigster Kaiser Wilhelm II, unser leuchtendes Vorbild und Führer des Reiches, lebe hoch, hoch, hoch! [5]

Many thanks one and all. Alansplodge (talk) 21:38, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

"Wilhelm II. entfloh dem Regierungsalltag mit einer solchen Inbrunst, dass die Deutschen das "I.R." in dessen kaiserlicher Signatur (Imperator Rex) heimlich zu "immer reisebereit" verballhornten" "Wilhelm II escaped the everyday life of the government with such fervour that the Germans secretly distorted the "I.R." in his imperial signature (Emperor Rex) to "always ready to travel"‎" DuncanHill (talk) 21:42, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Having had more of a look, I think Kurrent is more likely than Fraktur. DuncanHill (talk) 22:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kurrent

Makes sense. A modernised cursive script called Sütterlin was introduced into German schools in 1915. I can't read that either. My generation in 1960s Britain learned Marion Richardson's "Linked Script" (with a dip pen), which has minimal ligatures and no flourishes of any kind. Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have the plot, but need author and title

I read a story about 50 years ago that has me stumped. I remember the plot, in which a girl has a nightmare about a man in an old-fashioned green jacket who says he will come for her when she is older. She has the same dream in college. Nothing happens. She marries and has the same dream in which she is told, ‘I will come for you soon.’ She tells her husband, and he says she is stressed and should go on a business trip with him for a change of scenery. They go to Ireland (I think) and stay in an old manor house. The husband goes into a nearby city for a meeting, his wife goes to explore to house. She finds an old portrait with a picture of the man in her dream, a baron who died a century before. When the husband returns, he learns there has been a terrible storm that washed away part of a nearby hillside cemetery. There is an empty grave (it is the long-deceased baron). The wife is nowhere to be found. Now you know why this plot has haunted me!JanefromBayside (talk) 22:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC) Jane[reply]

@JanefromBayside: It's not a match in absolutely every particular, but this is extremely close to "The Face" by E. F. Benson. If that's not the story you're thinking of, it must be a near plagiarism. Deor (talk) 21:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've quickly skimmed the story, and it does seem to be the one you've been looking for. He actually says "I shall soon come for you now." There's no Ireland, but she does see his portrait in a gallery. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See SPOOK STORIES By E · F BENSON Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Albert The Bear

Hello, I would like to revise/correct a part of the Wikipedia Albert The Bear article.

I have editor's rights, however the entry, in "edit," shows only the first part, basically his dates etc.

My question is, how do I gain access to the actual body of the entry?

For context, a summary of the edit:

Albert The Bear and was a Saxon Prince in the 12th century.

He was granted the Duchy of Saxony by Conrad III, elected King of the Germans/Romans, ca. 1137.

The Duke of Saxony at the time was Henry "The Proud" X (Welf/Guelph; inherited Duke of Bavaria), by marriage (to Gertrude, daughter and only child of deceased (1137) Holy Roman Emperor Lothair II (sometimes "III" ), House of Supplinburg (also Duke of Saxony).

He and Conrad had stood for election as King of the Germans/Romans on the death of Lothair, Conrad being elected (1137). Conrad decided his rival would be divested of his Duchy's, and granted Saxony to The Bear (if he could take it).

By this time The Proud had a son, Henry The Lion.

The Proud went to war with The Bear over the Duchy (1137). The Bear lost this conflict, however, The Proud had died suddenly in 1139.

The Lion continued the ultimate successful, for him, conflict, regaining the Duchy in 1142.

The article attributes this regaining only to "Henry," without these factual details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmasursky (talk • contribs) 22:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lmasursky: there should be "edit" links by each section header. Click on these to edit the sections. See Wikipedia:FAQ/Editing for more help. DuncanHill (talk) 22:31, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And if you click on the Edit tab between Read and View history, you get the whole article in the edit window. --Lambiam 09:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But remember that you need reliable sources to support your edit. The nice people at Wikipedia:Teahouse will help if needed. Alansplodge (talk) 10:13, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it, hope you like it better that way. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 6

Snežana

Greetings,

Came across east European given feminine name article Snežana. The article mentions, "..Snezhana, is a Slavic, Circassian, and Lithuanian feminine given name, possibly derived from sneg ("snow") and žena ("woman")..."

Wish to discuss historical linguistics

My question is whether etymology of Suffix 'žena' ("woman") is of European origin itself or it is of Arabic origin?

If it is not of European origin and is of Arabic origin then any etymological chance of correlation with Arabic word Zina ?

Has this word used in Ottoman Turkish as an adjective ever?

Asking this question since, word Kafir is used for unveiled attractive female too, there is likely similar instance where by usage of word 'awrah (Intimate parts) creates usage of word Aurat as 'Women' too. I know my guess work may be right or entirely wrong, still better to find out if any one knows.

Bookku (talk) 03:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is more plausible that Снежана (Snežana) is an alteration of Снежанка (Snežanka), the Bulgarian name for the fairy-tale character Snow White. According to Wiktionary, the Bulgarian word жена (žena), meaning "woman", descends from Proto-Indo-European *gʷḗn, other descendants of which are English queen and Ancient Greek γυνή (gunḗ). So there is no relation with the Arabic term زِنَاء (zina) meaning "adultery". In present-day Turkish, zina is used only as a noun; I assume it was likewise in Ottoman Turkish. --Lambiam 09:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: What you suggest, Снежанка, seems plausible,after your reply I came across Zánka and that seems pre Islamic so we can hope word usage of Snežana & Snežanka can be preIslamic . Thanks for the information. Rgds. Bookku (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian and Hungarian are from unrelated language families. Also, Grimms' Fairy Tales with the Snow White story was published in 1812, and the Bulgarian translation of Snow White must have been much later. --Lambiam 22:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I always assumed Snezhana was just снег + alternation of г and ж (same as in бегу - бежишь, друг - дружба and the like) + -ана by analogy with other female given names, rather than anything to do with жена/queen/gyne. IOW, the ж is part of the root. Aecho6Ee (talk) 23:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Liability insurance and payouts

If, purely hypothetically, one causes a car accident and someone successfully sues them for damages, could one's insurance company directly pay damages to this person in your place as per a liability insurance contract between you and them? Basically, what I'm wondering if your insurance company could send the money directly to the person who won his lawsuit against you or whether they would literally have to first send this money to you before you can actually send this money to the other person? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 05:33, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That could depend on the insurance regulations where it happens. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about in various U.S. states? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 06:23, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Each state has its own set of insurance regulations. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:50, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I worked in the London insurance market for 25 years and can't imagine a reason why the claim couldn't be settled directly between the insurer and the claimant. Anything else would just increase costs for everyone. Alansplodge (talk) 10:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would also be problematic at least for compulsory insurances. The culpable party might be deeply in debt, and the insurance money could potentially be collected by a different debtor, with the claimant ending up with an empty or unenforceable claim. For my health insurance, on the other hand, I receive (and pay ;-) "normal" bills and then reclaim the money from the insurance. But larger items (like a hospital stay) are settled directly. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The point of liability insurance is to, well, transfer liability. The insurer assumes the insured's liability. If the insured incurs a liability that is covered by the insurance contract, the liability becomes that of the insurer. If an insured is sued for an alleged liability covered by an insurance contract, the insurer will defend the insured party in court, since the insurer is the one potentially on the hook. --47.155.96.47 (talk) 05:33, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's a name for this. 95.150.97.214 (talk) 14:55, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 7

The first Russian printing press

When exactly did the first printing press in Russia actually emerge? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 19:36, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some time between 1553 (according to the Russian Wikipedia article on printing press) and 1563 when the first dated printed book Acts and Epistles of the Apostles (Апо́стол) started getting printed (see also the articles on Ivan Fyodorov and Pyotr Mstislavets). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:46, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Do we know where exactly in Russia this printing press was located? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 20:38, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the Moscow Print Yard. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:42, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 8

Dancing Plague of 1518 Sources

Hi! Could I have some assistance in finding high-quality, reliable, secondary sources on the Dancing plague of 1518 that don't cite John Waller? I'm looking to better source the article, which over-relies on this particular author. Thanks! Tyrone Madera (talk) 03:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A mention in A History of Madness in Sixteenth-century Germany (p. 33) by H. C. Erik Midelfort. Alansplodge (talk) 10:32, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Divine Punishment or Disease? Medieval and Early Modern Approaches to the 1518 Strasbourg Dancing Plague by Lynneth J. Miller, from Dance Research, the journal of the Society for Dance Research. Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And a going back a bit, The Black Death and the Dancing Mania (1888) by Justus Friedrich Carl Hecker. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alansplodge, Looks like Miller also cites Waller, but the source looks better cited than most. ~~Do you have more info on how many pages in Hecker's book are dedicated to the event?~~ Tyrone Madera (talk) 20:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am reminded of the 1969 film They Shoot Horses, Don't They? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:43, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, there's actually a lot of parallels there. Tyrone Madera (talk) 23:18, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

B-17 incident

Hello, I'm researching an odd B-17 incident I found described in an old book.

It concerns an B-17 that took off "in 1939" (no specific date given) from "San Diego" (no mention of Lindbergh Field or other airfield) bound for Hawaii. After losing radio contact with the plane "for a couple of hours" the San Diego personnel were amazed to see the bomber come in for a landing. After landing they discovered most of the crew badly burned and dead inside, with the exception of the copilot who brought the plane in. Unfortunately he was also burned and succumbed from his wounds without giving any explanation for the event. Allegedly, all the crew's sidearms were emptied but no bullet holes were found, either in the airframe skin or aviators.

The empty pistols part of the story makes me think this is some sort of urban legend possibly based on a real incident but I found no mention of any involving B-17s taking off from San Diego in 1939. The source (the book) is not very reliable, once referring to the airplane as belonging to the USAAF and once as belonging to the Navy. For this reason I suspect the incident (if any) might not involve a B-17 at all, just a multi-engine aircraft with a crew bigger than two.

Anything above rings a bell to anyone? 208.127.136.43 (talk) 11:13, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress mentions an incident in 1940 in a B-17 based out of March Air Reserve Base outside Riverside, California. The plane did behave erratically in flight and crash, no mention of mysterious empty guns or of anyone surviving the subsequent crash, however. That's the closest I can find.--Jayron 32 11:22, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[6] mentions a Martin B-10 bomber that had 3 crew members burn up on board and crash, there was one survivor who managed to parachute. No one knows what caused the fire. It was at Langley in Virginia, however, not San Diego. --Jayron 32 11:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[7] mentions an unknown bomber crashing near the Salton Sea in 1942. Details unknown, but a large number of crew died. --Jayron 32 11:36, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion on Quora matches your incident closely, but calls it a cargo plane, and concludes that it is most likely bullshit. --Jayron 32 11:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! This seems to be the one! Thank you! 208.127.136.43 (talk) 11:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This thread discusses possible sources of the myth. --Jayron 32 11:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

this article attributes the story to two different science fiction authors, Robert Coe Gardner in the 1950s, and Charles Berlitz in 1988, and notes the likely source of modern tellings of the story is Berlitz. --Jayron 32 11:47, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Berlitz was not a science-fiction writer. He was the heir (or one of the heirs) to a successful language-teaching business, and dabbled in weird phenomena (kind of a third-rate Charles Fort, as far as that goes). AnonMoos (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Berlitz didn't intend to be a science-fiction writer, but much of his purported non-fiction was sufficiently speculative, inventive and un-fact-checked (surely knowingly) that it could pass for bad science fiction. He had a good deal in common with John G. Fuller and Erich von Däniken: there ought to be a term to cover exploitative writers of this type. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.58 (talk) 23:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just collecting purportedly strange and anomalous incidents does not make you a writer of fiction. A lot of people would not think that what Charles Fort did was valuable, but at least he was the best in the world at what he did. Charles Berlitz fell far short of Charles Fort (I read two books by Berlitz in the 1980s, one mainly about the Bermuda Triangle, as far as I can remember, and the second on odd language facts). AnonMoos (talk) 03:31, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it politer than calling him a bullshit artist. --Jayron 32 16:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[Edit Conflict] Broadly I agree [with AnonMoos], and incidentally I describe myself philosophically as a Fortean (I've been reading Fortean Times since the 1970s, and attending various related symposia). Fort's objective was to compile and cite reports of 'strange phenomena' unexplained by current science (any purported explanations he offered were invariably tongue-in-cheek and merely meant to stimulate discussion), and if he had a fault, it was underestimating the frequency of such reports being hoaxes, but he did not, to my knowledge, deliberately endorse falsehoods.

My reading of Berlitz's works is that he knowingly reported evident falsehoods and delusions, and himself manipulated accounts and invented or misreported details, to present narratives and reach conclusions that he must have known were untrue, in order to sell sensationalist articles and books. The same applies to the other two individuals I mentioned above. There are of course other writers in the same vein, some of whom might to some degree believe what they're peddling (e.g. Zecharia Sitchin), and some of whom are apparently genuinely mentally disequilibriated (e.g. David Icke). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.58 (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Culture in totalitarianism and democracy,

Is there a website or an information on how culture is practiced or being done in totalitarianism and in democracy?Donmust90 (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Donmust90, uh... that's the broadest topic I've seen in a long time. Could you be a little more specific? Elizium23 (talk) 15:40, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, is culture being done freely or is it restricted in totalitarianism than in a democracy? Donmust90 (talk) 15:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Donmust90, that is still completely vague! How many worldwide instances of totalianarianism and democracy have there been through time? They all do things differently! Trying to generalize is useless here. It calls for far too much speculation. Elizium23 (talk) 15:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A totalitarian regime will restrict the freedom of people. That is a defining characteristic of totalitarianism. Dissidents may organize clandestine cultural activities to circumvent censorship, such as samizdat in the former Soviet Bloc. They have to adjust their methods to the means available and the suppression methods of the regime. --Lambiam 19:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "culture"? Can you provide some examples of what you're talking about? <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 19:36, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should start with something a little less challenging, like the question of life, the universe and everything. We know the answer to that one. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC) [reply]

DonMust90 -- Maybe you could start by looking at the small and short book "On Tyranny" by Timothy Snyder, written in response to Trump's Nov. 2016 election, which attempts to give individuals advice on how to act to keep things from sliding further downwards, with a number of historical comparisons... AnonMoos (talk) 18:30, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 9

Looking for a name of a specific cloth some Muslims put on their head

After long research without results, I decided to come here to try... I'm looking for the name of this specific cloth that some of the Muslims put on the head. (example 1, example 2). I searched for "head cloth of Muslims", "Keffiyeh", etc. and found nothing. Maybe you know its name? Thank you ThePupil (talk) 23:07, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You should specify whether it's worn by men or worn by women... AnonMoos (talk) 03:13, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the guys in those photos are men. Wikipedia has a list of Muslim headgear. One of those photographed is a kufi.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:52, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but None of these names refer to the piece of cloth specifically wore by these men.ThePupil (talk) 09:47, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The term seems to be Imamah, which denotes a headscarf worn by a cleric and covers a number of styles. Your examples seem to be typical of Arab Muslims. Alansplodge (talk) 10:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Arabic term إمامة (ʾimāma) basically means "imam-ship" (or, more literally, "leadership", since Arabic "imam" is a generic term for "leader"). The page shows headwear that may be deemed suitable for an imam. I would classify the headwear itself as a traditional Arabian keffiyeh, draped rather more loosely than is usual for practical use. In Saudi Arabia, it is often secured with a headband. The guy in the second picture linked to in the question is Sheik Assim Al-hakeem, controversial for his extremely conservative views, who can be seen here wearing a keffiyeh in the classic red-and-white pattern. The piece of cloth does not have an inherent religious significance; it is the marriage of a local custom that is originally utilitarian with the religious requirement of modesty, cemented by tradition. --Lambiam 12:24, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy link for keffiyeh LongHairedFop (talk) 10:52, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 10

Largest country in history?

The Soviet Union was the largest country in terms of area for the almost seven decades it existed. But what was the largest country in terms of area in history? Was it also the Soviet Union or some other country? JIP | Talk 00:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See List of largest empires; according to the article the Soviet Union was the largest for 25 years. Zoozaz1 talk 01:13, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not surprised that the British Empire is at the top of the list; it had Canada, Australia, the Indian subcontinent, and a few other things.... AnonMoos (talk) 03:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lo, all our pomp of yesterday / Is one with Nineveh and Tyre! (Recessional). Alansplodge (talk) 10:29, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Soviet Union would have a) been the largest Empire by the time the of the Balfour Declaration of 1926 when it was established that all Dominions of the British Empire were essentially sovereign states on their own, which was formalized into law by the Statute of Westminster 1931, this functionally made the three largest chunks of the British Empire (Canada, Australia, and South Africa) independent, and by the same time period the Soviet Union was fully incorporated as a thing, so from at least 1926/1931 the Soviet Union was the largest sovereign state in the world. There is ALSO nothing special about 1975; the Soviet Union remained the largest country in the world until it officially broke up in 1991 with the Belovezha Accords. I have NO IDEA why that list says that the Soviet Union only existed from 1950-1975, or whatever it is saying, but that is bafflingly not true... Since the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia has been the largest country in the world. The largest empire in history was the British Empire by 1920, only a few years before it started to break up. --Jayron 32 16:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a little simplistic. The Statute of Westminster did not magically convert Australia, Canada and New Zealand into fully independent states. In Australia's case, there's a strong argument that says we did not achieve total legal independence until the passage of the Australia Act 1986. Also, you had an a), but no b) or c). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:26, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing you said I would have disagreed with, nor did I say anything that would have led one to believe I thought anything else but what you said. --Jayron 32 13:58, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's the difference between true and referenced. The year 1975 ist referenced (with a reference named Taagepera, Rein (1978)) and perfectly adequate, for the 1978 paper (I didn't check it) is eventually based upon 1975 data. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 12:23, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Referenced doesn't mean "referenced to something which is true and/or useful". We shouldn't be providing references to things which are known to be wrong. verifiability means that something is "able to be shown to be true". (veri- truth, -fy to cause, make, or show, -able, the ability to do something, -ity the condition of being; thus verifiability is "the condition of being able to show something is true") Truth is not a sufficient condition, but it is a necessary condition for something to be verifiable. Things which are demonstrably wrong don't become true merely because someone else wrote down a wrong thing. --Jayron 32 13:58, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I recently found a paper that claims the Mongol Empire may have reached all the way to the Arctic Ocean, which if true would have made it the largest empire ever. https://www.academia.edu/37799970/The_Mongol_Empire_s_Northern_Border_Re_evaluating_the_Surface_Area_of_the_Mongol_Empire Iapetus (talk) 18:35, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Isabel Thomas

Hello, Wikipedians. If possible, I'd like to have some WP:GNG-good refs for Isabel Thomas (and that's "just" a WP:INTERVIEW, not optimal), author of more than 100 science books for children. Her books have been written about in WSJ and NYT (that's T, not P). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another interview: [8]. Snippets of personal info can be gleaned from [9], [10], [11], good enough for independent sourcing. --Lambiam 20:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trying! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can add a couple more, but still not as in-depth as you’d like. She talks a bit about her life at the end of this interview also: [12]. There’s a screenshot of local newspaper article at [13]. And you can source her shortlisting for book prizes to [14], [15]. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:57, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 11

Stephen VI and liturgical languages

Every now and than in Glagolitic script someone "corrects" bull to bill in the sentence "In 885, Pope Stephen VI issued a bill to restrict spreading and reading Christian services in languages other than Latin or Greek". Guess this can be prevented with a wikilink to papal bull. Anyway, when I was checking this I found this ref from Great Moravia, page 81 and note at page 344. It mentions the letter Quia te zelo (not a bull and somewhat contested). It seems also the article is linking to the wrong Pope Stephen VI, the right one being now called Stephen V. I was hoping someone more history savy could double check my findings or suggest a better source for papal documents (guess legal matters were a bit complicated in that period). Personuser (talk) 07:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is an issue with the numbering of the popes named Stephen. The article Pope-elect Stephen explains the situation. Thus, depending on the age of sources you use, Pope Stephen V can be called Stephen VI. Xuxl (talk) 12:56, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Help in identifying a mysterious book

In 2009, French editor Éditions Payot published a book by an American author named Linnet Burden, under the title Les ombres de Chicago ("Chicago Shadows"), described as a murder mystery. It was reprinted in 2010 in a paperback edition in the prestigious Le Livre de Poche collection, so this would normally be a fairly well-documented book. The catalogue information at the Bibliothèque nationale de France site [16] states it is the translation of a novel named Cheap. Various sites say that the author's name is a pseudonym for Chicago Tribune reporter Linnet Myers (Burden), who does have a significant on-line presence. However, there is no trace of the original novel anywhere, or indeed any sign that Myers/Burden has ever published a novel. So can anyone identify the original novel from which the translation is derived, and its date of publication. It would normally have come out in the five-year period before the initial printing of its French translation. Xuxl (talk) 15:46, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that the (presumed) English original was never published. This is unusual but can sometimes happen when the intended publisher changes their mind or some other factor intervenes*, but the translated edition, already commissioned, nevertheless goes ahead. It's also possible that the author, though presumably a primary Anglophone, actually wrote the work in (for example) French to begin with. Again unusual, but not unknown.

(* Possible reasons include: the desire not to unbalance the publisher's monthly releases; the prior appearance of another book overly similar to the one in preparation; a real-world event that makes the book's subject unexpectedly sensitive; a legal objection by someone apparently or actually portrayed in the book (this delayed the appearance of Richard Adams' novel The Girl in a Swing, to my personal knowledge – the entire first printing was recalled from bookshops a week or two before publication); the retirement or death of the particular editor handling the book, with no other editor wanting to take it on; the sale of the publisher or imprint to another company that declines to publish that book or author.)

The English edition might also have been delayed due to similar factors, and subsequently published under a different title and or different pseudonym than that already printed in the French edition. Title changes prior to publication are by no means uncommon (ordinarily they don't come to our attention) and a change of pseudonym is also not unusual.

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.58 (talk) 16:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Xuxl: according to Linnet Burden's LinkedIn page "Current fiction and free-lance non-fiction writer. Former reporter, foreign correspondent and magazine writer for the Chicago Tribune. Author, "Les Ombres de Chicago," published in 2009 by Payot & Rivages in Paris, France". DuncanHill (talk) 16:22, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]