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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Alec935 (talk | contribs) at 08:51, 20 October 2021 (→‎Amended version). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15
Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35
Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Canceled
Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016) Canceled: Barron's BLP has existed since June 2019. (June 2024)
11. Superseded by #17
The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite
Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)
16. Superseded by lead rewrite
Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)
17. Superseded by #50
Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)
18. Superseded by #63
The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)
19. Obsolete
Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39
Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

23. Superseded by #52
The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).
24. Superseded by #30
Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49
Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)
36. Superseded by #39
Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48
There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

  1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
  2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
  3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
  4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

firehose of falsehood

I propose the lead sentence:

Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics.

be changed to

Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics and characterized as the propaganda technique firehose of falsehood.

Comments? soibangla (talk) 00:52, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strikes me as UNDUE and not descriptive for most readers. Possibly some other wording about propaganda technique? SPECIFICO talk 02:02, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is WP:UNDUE. I've never even heard the term used towards Trump before. I think it's fine the way it is now. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 02:46, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to the sources you provided, it's a "contemporary form of Russian propaganda known as the 'Firehose of Falsehood'" (quoting Mother Jones). The Rand Corporation calls it The Russian "Firehose of Falsehoods" propaganda model. It doesn't look as though the term caught on for Trump's torrent of lies except for a few comparisons with Russian propaganda. (Financial Times is the only recent source, and it's paywalled so I haven't read it.) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:31, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
UNdue.Slatersteven (talk) 14:27, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Amended version

Not sure where in the article it belongs but the term is very descriptive and useful. Here is a source from 2016 [1]

The only caveat I'd add is that we don't know if Trump was knowingly using this technique, I don't think so.

Amended version:

Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics and likened to the firehose of falsehood propaganda technique.

-- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 12:02, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer your version. As to whether it's knowing, this isn't him talking but his former chief strategist makes clear it's strategic:

Steve Bannon, once Trump’s chief ideologist, put the matter well earlier this year when he told Michael Lewis, "We got elected on Drain the Swamp, Lock Her Up, Build a Wall," he said. "This was pure anger. Anger and fear is what gets people to the polls.” Bannon added, "The Democrats don’t matter. The real opposition is the media. And the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with shit." [2]

And it was adapted from Putin's propaganda strategy:

Bannon articulated the zone-flooding philosophy well, but he did not invent it. In our time, it was pioneered by Vladimir Putin in post-Soviet Russia. Putin uses the media to engineer a fog of disinformation, producing just enough distrust to ensure that the public can never mobilize around a coherent narrative. [3]

soibangla (talk) 13:37, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Likened to" sounds weaselly, and I am not convinced the "firehose" is well-enough known to be referenced in this way in an encyclopedia bio. Maybe there's a way to indicate that Trump executes propaganda techniques without getting into arcane detail. SPECIFICO talk 15:59, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The original sentence does not need adjusting, this just rings of UNDUE.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 16:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a neologism coined by the Rand Foundation that hasn't caught on. Donald Rumsfeld, who was chairman of the board, used this technique to sell the War in Iraq, before Putin was credited with inventing it. Misinformation was broadcast through major U.S. media on a daily basis. TFD (talk) 00:52, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose in the lead and in the body. The term hasn't caught on, and the concept is pretty well-known (repeat a lie often enough, and enough people will believe it—the "I heard that before, must be true" effect or something along those lines). It's sometimes referred to as a "torrent of falsehoods" but I don't see that either term adds useful information to "unprecedented" or the number 30,573. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:21, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In fact the well-known concept you describe - "repeat a lie often enough, and enough people will believe it" - is already being consistently applied to Trump's claims under the term The Big Lie. That term is already used in this article and in Veracity of statements by Donald Trump. No need for this little-known, Johnny-come-lately of a term. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:00, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One of the most biased pages on Wikipedia. "Ranked among the worst presidents" is wholly inappropriate for someone who hasn't even been out of office for a year

Wealth

Mr Ernie, I thought we agreed long ago to exclude his wealth estimates, because The net worth of Donald Trump is not publicly known. He has a private company with no disclosure requirements, and though Forbes and others take their best shots at estimates, it's still pretty much "for entertainment purposes only." Fact is: no one really knows if he's even a billionaire or if he ever has been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1048613359&oldid=1048544746

soibangla (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the last discussion was #Richest president sourcing and content. I just skimmed it, but it seems like no consensus for including the descriptor. Happy to be proven wrong by those who participated or care to read through more thoroughly. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 01:00, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
These are 2 separate issues. The first is the wealth, about which per consensus #5 is pretty clear. The second is the “first billionaire president” text, which was originally baselessly removed as unsourced despite the clear source directly after, and later also baselessly removed on the grounds that the source is deprecated. Because the removals had no valid policy basis, the long standing status quo should be honored. Mr Ernie (talk) 01:15, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Immediately after announcing his candidacy:

The [Federal election regulators] report shows his assets to be worth at least $1.4 billion, including at least $70 million in stocks. Trump carries debt of at least $265 million. [4]

And that comes from information Trump provided. "At least" on both sides of the balance sheet makes it real fuzzy about whether he was a billionaire just prior to becoming president. soibangla (talk) 01:22, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So at least $1 billion +? I mean I hear you and I agree that it is fuzzy, but that’s also why consensus #5 was established. Mr Ernie (talk) 01:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So at least $1 billion +? No. Deduct at least $265 of debt. soibangla (talk) 01:43, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Forbes is a reliable source for this wealth, but apparently there is a consensus that it is. Maybe that needs to be rediscussed.
There's no consensus, however, on whether he was the first billionaire president–it's only that he was one of the wealthiest officeholders in American history. ––FormalDude talk 01:51, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Forbes source is clear on that too. If you have an issue with the source please open a discussion at WP:RSN. Otherwise please help ensure that long-standing consensus text remains stable. Mr Ernie (talk) 01:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If I'm understanding the history here, you're using two definitions of consensus. One is agreed upon consensus (noted at the top of the page), which is that Forbes should be used for net worth. I don't dispute that. The other is a "silent consensus" that "first billionaire" is appropriate. That consensus appears to be over, now that editors are objecting. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 01:57, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the problem is that the objections to the text as unsourced and deprecated are invalid. Mr Ernie (talk) 02:12, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is it a problem though? Are you saying we still need to add "first billionaire president" to the article? ––FormalDude talk 02:15, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Until consensus develops around a valid reason for exclusion then long standing text should remain in articles. What’s the reason to remove it and where was consensus established? Don’t say it’s unsourced or deprecated, because those aren’t valid reasons. Mr Ernie (talk) 02:22, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But nobody seems to agree with you. BLP content needs indisputable sourcing. SPECIFICO talk 02:27, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that it's unsourced or deprecated, it's that reliable sources contest it. We can't include Forbe's version of who was the first billionaire president over other reliable sources. That's not a neutral point of view. ––FormalDude talk 02:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which reliable sources say he’s not the first billionaire president? Mr Ernie (talk) 02:55, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The AP source I provided doesn't explicitly state it, but it establishes some reasons for skepticism and caution. Though I hasten to add that Trump said a week earlier that the data he gave to the FEC showed he was worth TEN BILLION DOLLARS, so there's that. [5] soibangla (talk) 03:04, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
These sources cast doubt:
  1. https://247wallst.com/banking-finance/2010/05/17/the-net-worth-of-the-american-presidents-washington-to-obama/
  2. https://www.businessinsider.com/the-net-worth-of-the-american-presidents-from-washington-to-obama-2010-5#35th-john-fitzgerald-kennedy-1961-1963-kennedy-estate-worth-nearly-1-billion-34
  3. https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/donald-trump-richest-president
  4. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/02/13/donald-trump-george-washington-net-worth-us-presidents/39011559/ ––FormalDude talk 03:51, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Those are not reliable sources. Mr Ernie (talk) 11:08, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to WP:RSP USA today is an RS and there is no consensus that business insider is not. Thus I think this is a contested claim, not a fact.Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Both the Business Insider and USA Today articles reprint the info from the 247 Wall Street source. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:17, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And? They use it, they are an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 13:31, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's an interpretation of sourcing that I don't subscribe to. If a RS reprints info from a non-RS, does that make the information reliable, or does it simply need to be attributed to the non-RS? Maybe that's a discussion worth having at RSN, but I think now that isn't how it's treated. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:53, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If they do not question it yes, as they are accepting it as fact.Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Ernie, why does this article need this information? J. B. Pritzker's article doesn't say that he's the richest person to ever hold the office of state governor, and Michael Bloomberg's article doesn't say that he's the richest billionaire to ever run for president. It's not as if this article was suppressing any information about Trump's (real, estimated, imagined) wealth. If any reader does wonder whether there were any other/richer billionaires, there's the inline link to the list of wealthiest officeholders in American history. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:28, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are three problems with this content. 1) The WP:BURDEN for verification is on the editor who favors the content, but in this case, it has not gained support that it's adequately-sourced. 2) It's WP:UNDUE trivia. even in the counterfactual event it were true. The WP:ONUS would be on those who seek to include it. 3) Current consensus is clearly against inclusion of "first billionaire president", and there was no prior discussion that would confirm previous approval or awareness of this first billionaire snippet. SPECIFICO talk 14:35, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem if the text is ultimately removed. I had a problem because SPECIFICO falsely removed it as unsourced and later on the grounds that the source was deprecated, and then again on the grounds that there was no consensus to include it. That's a misuse of the policies, and if I went and removed something cited to the NYT as unsourced or something to WaPo by saying WaPo was deprecated then those edits would be promptly reverted as nonsensical and I would likely get a talking to. I hope my fellow editors here don't endorse those types of tactics. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:09, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're aware this bit was not sourced to either NYT or WaPo. The billionaire bit is nonsensical for reasons agreed by every editor other than yourself. Let's move on. SPECIFICO talk 15:26, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dates of cites

Is there any guideline on which date to use when a source is updated, in some cases several times? I've searched "Help" in vain. This article, for example, was published on July 30, 2020, and updated on August 20. Do we keep the original date or use the date of the last update? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:36, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very good question. Ping me if you ever get an answer. -- Valjean (talk) 15:53, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Space4Time3Continuum2x: Probably an unhelpful answer, but I remember in HS English class my teacher was telling my class about MLA citation format. She said that we use the date that we saw when we cited the page, not the most recent date. The information cited was current and correct to that revision, but may not be in a later one. Not sure if this is any assistance, I've found the Help desk here to be unhelpful too, lol. Mgasparin (talk) 08:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That applies to the access-date= parameter, not the date= parameter. -- Valjean (talk) 00:01, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean, I think the teacher meant the cited page's date on the day it was cited, i.e., cite's original date was January 4, student wrote paper on January 5, cite was updated on January 10. Student's paper was correct on January 5 but possibly not after January 10. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:40, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Space4Time3Continuum2x, I agree. The student should make sure the date in the access-date= parameter fits the actual date they read the source, and base their paper on the source content on that date. No other dates are relevant in that connection. -- Valjean (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mgasparin, thanks. That's pretty much what I remember. I interpret that to mean that if the student cited the page on January 11 they'd use the date of the update. So, basically common sense :) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:40, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the original question ("Is there any guideline on which date to use when a source is updated...?") is still unanswered. I tried at Help talk:Citation Style 1 and got nowhere. Even they can't agree, and some even got hostile. (I may have made it too complicated.) I think a very specific RfC there about the date=parameter (and only that) might be necessary to solve that problem. -- Valjean (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just had a look at that discussion. Oh my! I think I'll just go with common sense. When I add a cite, I use the date of the last update; when I read an updated cite that doesn't support or no longer supports the WP text, I'll update WP and change both date and access-date of the cite or I'll replace the cite. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:22, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Promotion of conspiracy theories in the lead

SPECIFICO, yeah, agreed, it needs to be discussed but until then the consensus version per the RfC should be used. Except for the words "conspiracy theories", none of this was discussed: Through social media and mass media manipulation, Trump has brought fringe conspiracy theories into the mainstream, and used them to his political advantage. Please self-revert. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:38, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I viewed that as a bold edit that's also consistent with the RfC. Maybe needed some tweaks, but it reflected article text on the matter. SPECIFICO talk 14:48, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which RfC would that be? It isn't this one. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. It did not limit the detail or context. The !votes and close were not for specific wording. The wording was briefly, minimally discussed, I believe. Anyway we need to discuss what wording is appropriate. SPECIFICO talk 17:44, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The current wording in the article reflects exactly what was decided in the RfC just closed: that he promoted conspiracy theories. Period. If anyone wants to expand on that wording, they should first do it in the article text - which currently says nothing about "social media and mass media manipulation" or "bringing into the mainstream" or "using to his political advantage". And of course such an addition to the text would need solid sourcing. Then and only then could it be considered as an addition to the lead. Come on, folks, you know this. You can't add original material to the lead that is not reflective of what is in the article itself. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The "and promoted conspiracy theories" is definitely supported by the body and by RfC consensus, and any further addition should probably start in the body. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:51, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that the additional detail was already in the body text (as I said above). SPECIFICO talk 17:31, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Space4Time3Continuum2x Removed my contribution to the body of the article on grounds that it was "way too much detail." I completely disagree. My edit only added four sentences about vital parts of Trump's mass media usage, all properly sourced. ––FormalDude talk 17:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Are there perhaps even better sources, tertiary evaluations perhaps from some of the torrent of books that've come out in the past 12 months? SPECIFICO talk 18:31, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I had to begin the revert a few times because of edit conflicts, and in the end I wrote the edit summary in a great hurry—apologies for the curt results. For starters, I disagree with making "Relationship with the press" a subsection to "Use of mass media". Trump had a relationship with the press long before social media existed (see laying-of-the-pipes and pouring-or-the-cement ceremonies) but the using went both ways. He wanted the publicity, and the press used him as filler/comic relief. If "media manipulation" needs its own subsection, it should be be part of his relationship with the press/broadcast media. It’s separate from his use of social media which was entirely unfiltered and unchecked by journalists and editors and manipulated the public. The cited NYT article is four years old, and they clarify that news media allowed themselves to be manipulated: 1. Mr. Trump remains a master media manipulator who used his first news briefing since July to expertly delegitimize the news media and make it the story rather than the chaotic swirl of ethical questions that engulf his transition. 2. The news media remains an unwitting accomplice in its own diminishment as it fails to get a handle on how to cover this new and wholly unprecedented president. That's changed somewhat. As for the sources, I find it a bit problematic to cite a book or article based on its summary or abstract. I don’t see what makes Cassam’s opinion quote-worthy (never heard of him or the Nature journal, for that matter). Also, Cassam didn’t say that, Nature paraphrased him. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Corrections of access-dates

Surge_elec, I just gotta ask how you know that whoever added or later looked at that cite did it on October 9, 2018, and not on October 3. I've noticed you doing an edit like this before. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:34, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that on certain sources, the access-dates were written as when the source (with that particular content) was archived. In this case, on that day (October 9), the source was like this (the archived October 3 source, was not like this). So, I made that way. Surge_Elec (talk) 14:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If it doesn't make sense to you, we can discuss. Surge_Elec (talk) 15:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t understand your reasoning. You mention an archive, but the example link from Space4 wasn’t archived. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input Space4Time3Continuum2x. I changed it. Oct 3 archive [6] and Oct 4 archive [7]. The Oct 4 archive matches the content given in the wikisource. Surge_Elec (talk) 15:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you still don't agree, you can edit as you like. As, I have completed editing this article. Surge_Elec (talk) 15:42, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And what difference does it make and why is the access date significant? SPECIFICO talk 15:06, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What difference does it make: Explained above. That seemed to be the case for certain sources.
Why is the access date significant: In the format of sources, it is. All the sources generally on Featured Articles have access-dates. Surge_Elec (talk) 15:08, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So what? I see no defense as to the importance above. It sounds like you are way too involved with a pointless task. SPECIFICO talk 16:00, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is part of the format, and I also find it helpful to know when a cite was added or corrected. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Surge_elec, I was curious and checked the edit history from October 3 to November 21 when I stopped looking. The cite was added on October 3 with the access-date but without the author's name. Whoever added the name later didn't change the access date. I just mentioned it because changing the access date to some time in the past didn't make sense since you checked the source today. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:11, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The "access-date=" parameter should be used, and it should be the date when the person who creates the content read the source. (I don't think a later addition of the author's name necessitates updating the access date, as the author doesn't change.) The date the editor added the content and ref is another matter, and the access date should not be updated without actually rereading the source, which can be a pain, so just use the original date of access. Keep in mind that the URL doesn't change when an article is updated, so we are currently dependent on the access date. -- Valjean (talk) 16:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
When copying sources and content from other places at Wikipedia, remember to attribute the article it came from, and don't change those original access dates unless you actually have reread the source. Keep the original access date. -- Valjean (talk) 16:58, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2021

Remove the links from "politician, media personality, and businessman" in the lead sentence as per WP:EGG. Readers, particularly mobile readers, should know what they're clicking on. DeaconShotFire (talk) 16:22, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus, item [50]. ValarianB (talk) 16:39, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia rules trump consensus. DeaconShotFire (talk) 16:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Manual of Style article on linking says that it "is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." We've had three RfCs about the phrasing of the first sentence, which included the links, and a number of discussions about linking. IMO that's reason enough for the application of the "occasional exceptions" and for leaving the sentence alone for a while. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:24, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The words "politician", "media personality", and "businessman" don't make it clear enough what the links are nor is it customary to link like this in the lead. Why not link "served" to "Presidency of Donald Trump"? It's equally as clear. Context is still highly important. DeaconShotFire (talk) 22:31, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Linking "served" to "Presidency" would also be an EGG where readers might expect a link to Service. Personally, I don't care where these wikilinks go, it's just that linking every other word in the first sentence seems a bit much. We should respect current consensus, though, item 50, which includes the links the current four links. If anyone wants to change it, start a discussion or an RfC. It's been a whole five weeks since the last one :) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Linking "served" to "Presidency" would also be an EGG where readers might expect a link to Service."
Yes, that's quite the point I was making.
How is anyone, particularly anyone on a mobile device, going to expect that the word "politician" is going to take them to "Political career of Donald Trump"? DeaconShotFire (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They are not asking to remove the words, just the links.Slatersteven (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2021

(Redacted) Add Toddler Trump please. Swappaty (talk) 22:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Image is a copyright violation. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:56, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very fine people

Re this revert [8] — According to the edit summary, something like this was rejected in the past. Could anyone give me an idea of why it was? Bob K31416 (talk) 16:28, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because we go with what RS say, and Trump is not an RS.Slatersteven (talk) 16:33, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt that was the reason for rejecting it in the past because the RS was [9], not Trump. Anyone else? Bob K31416 (talk) 16:51, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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