Talk:Barack Obama
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Frequently asked questions
Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
| This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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 | There is a request, submitted by Catfurball, for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "Important". |
Quotes
Why is one unable to submit words or quotes for person(s)? 75.109.193.4 (talk) 15:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sounds like you're looking for Wikiquote, not Wikipedia. There's a page for quotes at q:Barack Obama. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Kunduz hospital strike
Why is the Kunduz hospital airstrike mentioned in the lead section, which is supposed to summarize the article, even though it is not even present in the main body? Leontrooper (talk) 22:40, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agree and removed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
BLP?
@SPECIFICO You're going to have to be more specific, what part of BLP are you referring to? X-Editor (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Im sorry, but is it somehow in dispute that Obama a. ordered the drone strike, and b. ordering the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen was controversial? nableezy - 02:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- No source in this article for "controversially ordered". SPECIFICO talk 02:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Well, it says the killing was controversial in the foreign policy section. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 03:38, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- It. Was. Unsourced. Unsourced article text is not a source for lead text. P,ease see WP:V SPECIFICO talk 11:56, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Was trivial to find sources for that, cmon. Anwar al-Awlaki has a ton if you wanted to look for some. But yeah, the sourcing was poor in the body, but been beefed up now. This was among the most controversial acts of his presidency, on the merits, do you dispute it belongs in the lead? nableezy - 12:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please stay within the bounds of the issue under discussion. And I'm sure you agree it's unacceptable to claim unsourced article text as a source for lead content. The citations help our readers to understand the brief paraphrased representations of significant events in the article text. I will do a CE on the lead text, which is poorly worded. SPECIFICO talk 13:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- It is no longer unsourced in the body. If youd like a source in the lead sure. My question is do you have a reason besides the easily provided lack of a source for inclusion in the lead. Why are you removing that it was controversial from the lead? nableezy - 13:47, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- I believe that everyone saw your addition of a source. Nobody has said it is still unsourced (which was the reason it was removed, as stated iin my first post above) or that a duplicate source in the lead is required. I've edited the lead text, where I think "controversially ordered" is UNDUE, and narratives as to the issue of his US citizenship might be OK for this article and would certainly be DUE in other articles more closely related to this event than this page about Obama's life story, where the dissent is not a significant ongoing factor. SPECIFICO talk 13:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- The argument that this page is about Obama's life story makes zero sense. Every single paragraph of the lead is at least partially about his presidency. The first introduces him as 44th President of the United States. The second ends with his campaign and election. The entirety of third and fourth paragraphs are about his presidency, and the last paragraph begins with the presidency and its legacy. WP:LEAD requires notable controversies about a subject be included, that seems to be completely ignored here. I dont understand why you feel like including the word controversial transforms it into an UNDUE weight issue. nableezy - 14:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Every paragraph in the lead, yes. Every paragraph/section in the body (also "page"), no. It's possible the lead should have more pre/post president stuff. Anwar al-Awlaki is mentioned in the FP section atm, that much is clear. He wasn't when I removed him from the lead in March last year. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:23, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, of course the article covers more, but the idea that the lead isnt largely focused on his presidency and as such should not include one controversial aspect of it is to me a non-starter. nableezy - 14:35, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- I question whether this drone operation belongs in the lead. It is not among the most significant facts about Obama's life and work. SPECIFICO talk 15:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- I pretty much agree. The lead is already a little lengthy, and this lead should be more for the broad points, not one drone strike. It seems a little insignificant. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 01:45, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Fwiw, here is an earlier discussion on WP:LEAD-content: Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_82#Hiroshima_speech. It may have derailed a bit. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:35, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- I pretty much agree. The lead is already a little lengthy, and this lead should be more for the broad points, not one drone strike. It seems a little insignificant. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 01:45, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- The argument that this page is about Obama's life story makes zero sense. Every single paragraph of the lead is at least partially about his presidency. The first introduces him as 44th President of the United States. The second ends with his campaign and election. The entirety of third and fourth paragraphs are about his presidency, and the last paragraph begins with the presidency and its legacy. WP:LEAD requires notable controversies about a subject be included, that seems to be completely ignored here. I dont understand why you feel like including the word controversial transforms it into an UNDUE weight issue. nableezy - 14:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- I believe that everyone saw your addition of a source. Nobody has said it is still unsourced (which was the reason it was removed, as stated iin my first post above) or that a duplicate source in the lead is required. I've edited the lead text, where I think "controversially ordered" is UNDUE, and narratives as to the issue of his US citizenship might be OK for this article and would certainly be DUE in other articles more closely related to this event than this page about Obama's life story, where the dissent is not a significant ongoing factor. SPECIFICO talk 13:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- It is no longer unsourced in the body. If youd like a source in the lead sure. My question is do you have a reason besides the easily provided lack of a source for inclusion in the lead. Why are you removing that it was controversial from the lead? nableezy - 13:47, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please stay within the bounds of the issue under discussion. And I'm sure you agree it's unacceptable to claim unsourced article text as a source for lead content. The citations help our readers to understand the brief paraphrased representations of significant events in the article text. I will do a CE on the lead text, which is poorly worded. SPECIFICO talk 13:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Was trivial to find sources for that, cmon. Anwar al-Awlaki has a ton if you wanted to look for some. But yeah, the sourcing was poor in the body, but been beefed up now. This was among the most controversial acts of his presidency, on the merits, do you dispute it belongs in the lead? nableezy - 12:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- It. Was. Unsourced. Unsourced article text is not a source for lead text. P,ease see WP:V SPECIFICO talk 11:56, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, like everything else in the lead should be, thats well sourced in the body. nableezy - 04:25, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Well I suppose it wasnt, but it is now. nableezy - 04:29, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Well, it says the killing was controversial in the foreign policy section. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 03:38, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
I support the addition. GoodDay (talk) 03:36, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
My observation
Hello everyone, I was gathering materials for literature review on the past leaders of the United States and something caught my attention on this page. I noticed inconsistency in the IPA used for the transcription of the name-- Barack Obama which I think is inappropriate. To be precise, I observe the the schwa /ә/ is represented in the transcription of "Barack", while in the diphthong which initiates Obama, the schwa is replaced with a different phoneme. That is, instead of /әʊ/, the variant /oʊ/ is used. I think this is rather infelicitous.
I would like to know whether there is a reason for this substitution. Does this substitution have anything to do with the specific guidelines of the Wikipedia? Margob28 (talk) 03:33, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
New Portrait
Are we able to use the new portrait unveiled today? Nerguy (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
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