C. S. Lewis was one of the Language and literature good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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The following issues have been extensively discussed and there is strong consensus for the status quo. Although consensus can change, we kindly ask that you familiarize yourself with previous discussion on the following topics before raising any of these issues again.
Resolved That C.S Lewis's birth place is not Northern Ireland, which did not exist at the time of his birth.
Nationality; both?
I hate to be 'that one' who suggests it, but in the sake of encyclopaedic integrity I think it should be brought up. I think the opening should read "was a British and Irish..."
When we look up a Welsh writer, or a Scottish writer, we see "Welsh" or "Scottish" listed as opposed to British. Lewis referred to himself as Irish, and he was born to a Unionist family in Co. Down so no doubt he was also British. In lieu of 'Irish' (as is the case with Scottish, English, Welsh authors from that period) I think the only reasonable wording would be "British and Irish". Just gauging POVs of editors, and if needed, admins.
Thanks,
BBX118 20:51, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Admittedly I am not exactly an expert on the British-Irish conflict, but it seems to me that "(Northern) Irish Unionist" could work. "Unionist" is explicitly an ideology so it is not subject to dispute in the same way a raw nationality would be, yet it has intrinsic connotations of self-identified nationality. ChromaNebula(talk)21:54, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why on earth would we use anything about ideology in stating nationality in the lead? MOS:CONTEXTBIO's statement that the nationality given for context should indicate "where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable" seems sufficient guidance here. Lewis was certainly not residing in Ireland during the period of his notability, and he was British (a citizen of the United Kingdom) throughout his entire life. The recurring discussions about this matter certainly become tiresome for someone who's been around here for a while. Deor (talk) 22:19, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Robert Louis Stevenson is described as Scottish despite also moving in London literary circles and spending a lot of time moving around constantly.
Lewis was of my gr-grandfathers generation - born prior to partition, they saw themselves as both British and Irish. Wouldn't "Northern Irish" be a good reflection of this?--SinoDevonian (talk) 23:41, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion
In the occupation section or box, it's written he was "novelist" because he's written more than 30 novels. He's
published poems too, does that not make him a poet? 41.114.119.127 (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It seems quite strange to me that Lewis is introduced as solely British here - by the man’s own, lifelong admission, he was Irish.
Of course, Lewis was also a British subject and I can find no evidence of him disputing this. Perhaps the most reasonable approach would be to introduce Lewis as “Irish and British” or “British and Irish”. This would clearly align most closely with the man’s own life and opinions - and would also be by far the most likely identification of a man born to a Protestant background in Ulster before the partition of Ireland. Including both nationalities is therefore both accurate and satisfactory to all.
Thanks! 148.81.201.16 (talk) 21:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mind if I ask how much of the long, long history of us discussing this very question, on this page and in the archives, you read before posting here?
The consensus we have previously arrived at, based on Wikipedia's guidelines about these things, is that if Lewis's Irish birth is part of what makes him notable, then it should be mentioned in the lede sentence. If not, it should not.
That's an easy question to answer from a general perspective: no, around the world, Lewis is not noted for being Irish. I for one would be ready to concede, if Lewis is noted in Ireland for being Irish, then it would be worth making the change (and I'm sure I remember saying that too on this page at least once before). But we would need reliably sourced evidence that he is noted in Ireland for being Irish.
Would you mind linking to the set of guideline that governs how one's nationality is discussed? I cannot seem to find it, and it frankly does not make much sense to me that one's nationality is defined as what nationality they became well known as, not what nationality they were, so I am curious to see the reasoning behind it. Overgrown Lizard (talk) 22:18, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, thank you for the link! On the next paragraph there is a tooltip that specifically refers to how to refer to British people - that is, it states there is "no preference between describing a person as British rather than as English, Scottish, or Welsh." Presumably Northern Irish would fall under this as well, in which case it states to consider how sources refer to the person, and "whether the subject has a preference on which nationality they identify by." In this case, the subject seems to have a preference, referring to themselves as Irish but at the same time not contesting his Britishness, so it would seem to me that referring to him by both makes the most sense. Thank you for the link and quote again, I was having a hard time finding it for some reason. Overgrown Lizard (talk) 01:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It really can be awkward. Speaking personally, I identify as English but by that token I am also British. I understand with Ireland it's a tad more complicated, and I agree that referring to him as both seems a sort of necessary thing since Irish/British identity is so much more complex. Ernest Shackleton for example, would not be contested as British, but proudly also declared throughout his life that he was an Irishman (and he was Anglo-Irish, another kettle of fish altogether, with some Anglo-Irish people maintaining their English/Scottish identity, and others proudly adopting an Irish one, like he did...yet still identifying as British alongside that).
It is just a bit more complicated in the case of Irish people alas, because we want to be accurate, but also need to put them down as they probably would wish. And if British isn't there somewhere, it can look like they didn't consider themselves to be so. And if they did, or at least very likely did, its important to have down. Alooulla (talk) 18:23, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems strange that a person who was born and raise in a country and identifies as such is declared by others to be something else. He is Irish and should be documented as such. Mmtpf (talk) 12:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is the political reality aspect. If you identify him as Irish alone, you would have to read the article to discover if he considered himself British, and not everyone is going to do that. That's why British has to be up there somewhere as well. It's messy but its the safest way. Alooulla (talk) 02:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I would object. Please see the discussions of the matter in the archives of this page. He seems to have considered himself Irish by contrast with English, not by contrast with British. Deor (talk) 18:17, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2023
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He was Irish, nor British, and regularly referred to himself as such even having said "I am often surprised to find how utterly ignored Yeats is among the men I have met: perhaps his appeal is purely Irish – if so, then thank the gods that I am Irish." as well as "Like all Irish people who meet in England, we ended by criticisms on the invincible flippancy and dullness of the Anglo-Saxon race. After all, there is no doubt, *ami*, that the Irish are the only people: with all their faults, I would not gladly live or die among another folk."
Not done for now: see the discussions above and in the archives. This is a disputed topic and, until a thorough consensus is reached, will not be changed. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 20:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2023 (2)
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Done Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 09:05, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Not done for now: see the discussions above and in the archives. This is a disputed topic and, until a thorough consensus is reached, will not be changed. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 20:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
