Talk:Kosovo

UN

If some countries from UN security council (even the majority) recognize Kosovo, it needs a resolution to be recognized by UN. And a resolution cannot be done without Russia or China. So Kosovo may be a nation... never member of the united ... nations. I also wonder how it could be member of EU one day if at list three of its memebers do not even recognize it and it is not a UN member ? We can discuss on if it is good or not, but this is the LAW. LEGALLY, the last UN resolution on Kosovo clearely states that this terrtory is part of Serbia. And if no other new resolution is adopted, this will never change.

Anyway, maybe in some years Kosovo will really be an independent state if Russia and China accept it, who knows ? But wikipedia should wait this moment to write an article about "the kosovo republic" : this is not second life, but real one ! Wikipedia is not here to say: "this is good and this is bad", but only the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.192.117.203 (talk) 21:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

What are you rambling on about then? Eventuly russia will cave in, Since china says it's "Concerned" and that "negotiations are needed". Basicly, what happend with the us and china can happen here to, eventuly the us recognized china as the dominate china, and this allowed china into the un.--Jakezing (talk) 21:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo does not need the acceptance of Russia or China if they join the EU, which they will. There are no major obstacles politicly for them to join the EU. Those few countries in the EU that do not agree with the independence don't have to, but just not to veto against the decision for them to join. Another possibility is that by the time Kosovo is ready to join, all EU would have recognized it's unique case and it's independence.

Jon

As recognized by the UN, the only supra-national institution on this planet. Wikipedia CANNOT host un article about the Kosovo "republic" until the UN did not officially recognized Kosovo as an independent state (which by the way will never happen). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.196.75.179 (talk) 19:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The main page need a sentence saying that "Kosovo is not recognized as independent by the United Nations because of strong opposition of some security council members" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.196.75.179 (talk) 19:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

(please add contributions to the end of the talk page in the future, not the beginning.) Gopher65_talk 20:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Were not the UN though... & the un hasn't stated a offical postion yet now has it, just because 1 of the members has explicitly stated they dont support kosovo(Russia) and the other is "Asking for further..."(china) Dosn't mean the officla un postion is not support. That and THREE of perm. members support kosovo. Your sentence shouldn't be added just because it assumes something that hasn't been stated. Then theres this statement in the dip. reac. article. "The UN has told Serbia to cease its interference in Kosovo". Basicly, the UN itself is in a postion similar to the EU; let the memberstates decide if it's independant and make a offical postion later.--Jakezing (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Wiki is not part of the UN, LOL, as to US security council, well US, UK, France are members of the UN Security Council and they already recognized Kosova. (not signed)

Thats what i said, then that point got lost. I think we should make a note on the article stating that, see if it ends all this "kosovo is not recognized cause the un dosn't recognize it" crap --Jakezing (talk) 21:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo is not the state

Whay do you write as state? Kosovo is never not will be state, because Serbian territory. Never!!--123FM (talk) 09:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Most of today's states have been created during the last 100 years.They also belonged to another territory before that

. Yugoslavia was divided into a lot of states already in the 1990--ies and only last year Montenegro got its independence. Why is Kosovo so special? --Muniswede (talk) 21:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

They also belonged to another territory before that

Whay's another territory? Kosovo is half of Serbian territory and belonged only Serbia...Also Kosovo is not special region. The NATO occupation this territory.--123FM (talk) 12:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Please speak english. Second, guess what, we said the same thing of the PROC. and 3rd, take your serbian bullshit off this article. Were here to discuss improving the article AND keeping it NPOV--Jakezing (talk) 17:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo shouldn't be called "a state" or "a Serbian province" or "a former Serbian province" becauYouse calling it any of those things constitutes POV. In southern Kosovo the Albanians consider Kosovo to be an independent country. In northern Kosovo the Serbs consider Kosovo to be a Serbian province. The United States and most of the EU consider Kosovo to be an independent country, but the UN, the rest of the EU and most of the rest of the world consider Kosovo to be a Serbian province. All that should be said about Kosovo's status is that "it is a region that is the subject of a territorial dispute between the Serbs and the Albanians" we shouldn't say more about its status than that because it's status changes depending on where the editor lives and who you ask. That being said, it might be a good idea to have one section of the article explain the Serbian claim to Kosovo and another explaining the Albanian claim to Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.196.155 (talk) 17:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

At fist I don't speak bullshit. Secondly The guest 216.162.196.155 right. Whay do you write Republice of Kosovo? While, you write necessary Kosovo or Kosovo and Metohia. You are correct this article is now! --123FM (talk) 19:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Ya, your taking the serbian bullshit that it isn't a country and putting it here, and you still cant speak englisch!--Jakezing (talk) 23:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Your write bullshit off about Kosovo! Your write incorrect! I write correct.I speak English. Do you speak English?

P.S You are not anger me.--123FM (talk) 09:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

You are not anger me isn't proper english...--Jakezing (talk) 13:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

United States of Amerika and EU infringe all international lowies and rights but recognize as independent state.What for USA muslim country in Europe? What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123FM (talk • contribs) 15:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC) census

I hardly think it is fair to refer to Kosovo as either an independent state or as a province of Serbia since there is no international consensus. Until there is a reasonable consensus one way or the other (from all major nations) it is neither one of those two things. This doesn't seem likely in the near future, but there is nothing wrong with this. Some "countries" exist in this state of limbo for decades.

Also, I strongly dislike it when people bash non-native speakers of a language for their grammatical errors on forums or talk pages. It is expected that articles should be grammatically correct, but talk pages are quite another matter. As an example, I'd be pretty miffed if someone started ranting at me on a Spanish forum because I'd phrased something backwards. My Spanish sucks. I know that. But there are times when I want to get a basic idea across anyway, and, as long as I put out an effort to be as correct as possible, I expect people to be reasonable toward me. The same is true of English language pages like this. Gopher65_talk 02:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes... what when they say their bad form of englisch is good. And i don't expect people to know english perfectly, when i know that isn't their native tounge, i didn't know it wasn't his native tounge totaly u ntil he said "amerika." Hell, i understand why; In the short time modern english has existed, it's been rapped into non rcognisition and made incred. hard to learn.--Jakezing (talk) 21:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo is not a part of Serbia, not any more. Kosovo was occupied and held by force, it didn't just belong to Serbia.'

The majority of the population over 90% of it, like any other population wanted to be FREE from bad rulers regime.

It's about time that People felt free in their own country.

As for the recognition of the Republic of Kosovo the countries opposed to it's independence are the ones that lack freedom and democracy. Also those, who for internal politic reasons choose not to oppose,but not to recognize it either.

Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.27.96 (talk) 18:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A lot of you seem to be blinded by bias. I like the opening right now as it is. It first speaks about Kosovo, and then defines it by stating its declaration of independence and then the feelings of Serbia, Russian and Spain being that it is, and always will be a part of Serbia. It's very well done as far as I can tell. You guys need to leave your bias off of Wiki. Thanks. Beamathan (talk) 22:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Jon's invitation

Albanian history about Kosovo is poor in studies and collections. Most of that assimilated by other populations and cultures, or non- existing any more. But time and history is on their side if they make an effort.

Serb history about Kosovo is based on the idolised figures and the Orthodox Church. No Serb historian speaks any other language form the region, or has ever made studies of the history based on facts and documents of the history archives in other neighbouring countries.

This fanatically cultivated history is based on the need of Serb population to feel like they belong. They have been lead to believe this martyr’s and glorified history that they use as a reference of virtue, nationalism and as a defence mechanism.

The success of Serb 'history' and their claims is based on that has not been contested by others, until recently.

Kosovo is not the cradle of Serbia but far from it.

Kosovo has been in the Serb attention only after the battle of 1389 of the Field of Kosovo.

Although in the battle of the Field of Kosovo most of the army that faced the Ottomans were Serbs, they were not the only. There were Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlach and other. The leader of Albanians that fought in that battle also died. There were thousands of Serbs fighting in that battle for the Ottoman Turks, who were pro, a neutral Serbia to the Ottoman invasion....trade / economical reasons....etc

There was no mass exodus from Kosovo of the Serb population. There is simply nothing to back that theory other than Orthodox Church/ fanatics.

My intention is not to irritate Serbs with this post, but simply to discuss facts rather then just claim history in ways that some think is better suited.

I welcome anybody to discuss with me in a /eye opener/ seeking for the truth/ attitude. But please bring only facts not stories. Albanian or Serb you may be.

Jon

Jon, you wrote No Serb historian speaks any other language form the region...

How can I make any rational argument with a person that makes such an ignorant generalization. As far as I can tell, ALMOST ALL Serbs that lived on Kosovo speak Albanian language. I have few friends from there, and yes, they do know Albanian. Some of them may as well be historians. No, your ignorance does not irritate me, it just makes me sad. Lakinekaki (talk) 02:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you friends historians or just people who live in the villages!!! I dont think you got right Jons' view. Piasoft (talk) 13:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll try to stay away from a distant past, in order not to look as a fanatic, yeah?

Well, the fact how many Serbs from Kosovo no loger live there, the facts which are obvious from demographic maps of the region in the past 10 years only, the fact that Serbs suffer daily provocations and attacks (and that can be checked by simply living on Serbian ghettoes on Kosovo and Metohija), the fact how Serbian and ortodox monuments of culture are treated, the fact how you talk about Serbian history of Kosovo and people who believe that to be true.. well, all those facts only prove your so-called neutral point of view. Either your intention actually IS to irritate Serbs, or to try to convince people who don't know what was happening in that place during the past. There is one more option, you're writing your own stories and believing them to be the truth, but still asking from others not to place theirs, but facts. You want facts? Well, sorry, if you live there and you still fail to see the facts, you either don't want them or don't care about them. If that's not true, then visit the places where Serbs still live, check with THEM, not with the Orthodox Church, nor my stories. Try to find sources (neutral sources, not Serbian, not Albanian, not pro-Serbian, not pro-Albanian.. NEUTRAL) to compare number of Serbs living on Kosovo and Metohija now, and only 10 years ago. Try to find sources to compare places in Kosovo where Serbs were majority only 10 years ago and now, when those places are 100% Albanian. Go and visit the remnants of freshy ruined monuments of culture. Don't check with the Orthodox Church, check their burned monasteries. And after that come here and tell me more of your stories about non-existing exodus and non-existing facts to prove it. I don't care about history more than knowing it. Present should influence the future more than past. The fact that a piece of serban land is no longer in Serbia is completely unimportant. I mean, it's unimportant comparing to the fact HOW Serbian people live in that piece of land. For now, no need to tell more stories, check how they live. Until recently I could, and I did, twice a month at least, and every time I return I had more "stories". Nothing I invented, nothing I was told, only what I saw. Right now, I cannot go there to visit my family, those who decided to stay (the rest had to leave in that latest "non-exodus", or they would be burned together with their property). But, I assume you're closer, you can check and you can go and see. There is no future for Serbian people in independent Albanian country. Now I'll have to have a short peak in the past.. I don't know for 100% who lived there longer, but I know that north Albania was also under Serbian rule in the history. Now there are no Serbs living in Albania. ArhangelSerbia (talk) 16:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear ArhangelSerbia!

First of all I didn't make a generalisation or ignorant comment. I think you are making that mistake based on emotions and the events happening in the country at the moment. I just spoke of a ‘‘‘fact’’’ that even Serbian Historians themselves know about it. I don't remember the TV program I watched in relation to this but there were interviews with quite a few /Living/ Serb Historians admitting the fact that much of the Serbian history when it comes to Kosovo, is not based on what you would call historical facts.

That was the point I was trying to make!.

I spoke about Historians contributing to this history living or dead, when I said that there was or is no one speaking the languages or made studies evolving other points of view expectably those ones of their neighbours.

Sad is more the fact that you do not know that who wrote, or even who took the bother to look at other neighbouring countries historical say in it. Kosovo has been a region of poverty and analphabetic for most of its History. Even if there was somebody talking history based on facts and studies from neighbouring countries, they were probably censored or even worst. There is nothing there to say that was a Serbian Historian who wrote about the History of Kosovo and survived, that was based in an impartial source or a study they made on this and that Fact based on the study of that country's history or historian of that country's writings .

Don't get me wrong Serbia is not the only one in the region. Greeks, Albanians, Macedonians, Bosnians, Croatians and other have the same Problems.

You are right when you say that are a lot of Serbs that have left Kosovo during the past decade and that is awful. But if you look at the history Serb rulers or governments have tried continuously and managed partially to ethnically cleanse that region, and the worst happened in that past decade that you talk about. You talk about the situation where the monuments of culture have been destroyed. I'm completely and utterly against those acts and do know for some to be true, but after to what happened in the region it's impossible to say that you didn't expect some sort of radical behaviour on the other side as well. For what I understand the situation is that, Orthodox Church in Kosovo is a Serbian only party, with radical figures leading it, who repeatedly call for war to drive the 'Turks' meaning all Muslim population out of Kosovo.

I have not seen or heard an Albanian / Muslim clergy to do that up to today out in the open.

There are historical facts and historians that know that many of the churches built By Serb rulers are built on the ruins of what use to be Churches from the Byzantine Empire or in some cases Mosque.

You are right, Albania was occupied by Serbia and not only the north. But you are wrong to say that there are no Serbs in Albania. There are Serbs, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Greeks, Check, Russian, Jewish, Egyptian and other in Albania, but they are all assimilated in the Albanian population. Their names or surnames sometimes tell you where they are from.

It's great that you think that you think we should focus in the present and the future and in deed we should. There are problems I know, that you will still continue to have unless you become a member of the Kosovo society not Serbian in Kosovo but Kosovo. Did you really think that after what happened every thing was going to be normal or better? I am afraid that that is the price to pay for what happened. I think that positive thinking and a bit of more understanding between one another would help the situation rather than accusation and differentiating your self from each other. I think time would be the healer for the region.

In this website we are talking about history so you can understand that I’m focusing on that. I do believe also that bad leadership and distortion of the history influenced a lot, in the problems you have today.

Jon,

Hello Jon, and fellow viewers i am a 16 Y Old albanian and i want to make clear a thing the ethnic population of Kosovo is pure Albanian they come from the mountains of Rugova. I dont know how they call it in english but in albanian language we call it "Fis" a "fis" is like a big big family,same bloodline.
When Albanians bulgarians serbs etc were fighting agaist the ottomans we were together . When we putted out of our maps the ottomans serb lowlifes came and ocupated our territory.Back to the "Fis". In Kosovo we ethnic albanians (Ilyrians) who live in territory of kosovo, we have 12 fiss'es we all came from those 12 "fis'es" im gona tell you few of them : Gashi , Krasniqi , Kelmendi , Hoti etc etc nowadays we have the surname but we also have the "fis" surname .ask pure ethnic kosovar what's his "fis" and he will tell you! anyways . Serbs were never a part of kosovo and they never be a part of it. you see they were here. Why they needed to kill us to kill babys , old man, rape our sisters , burn our mosques . In my city (Pejë-Pec) 12 (80%) mosques where burned to the ground on 1999 90% of the houses where burned to the ground . We had to make somthing out of nothing and now that we have our independence the lowlife dudes (serbs) are jealous. KOSOVO WAS STATE IS STATE AND WILL BE STATE FOREVER SCREW THE LOWLIFES

I think i made myself clear and sorry for the mistakes i dont know much english. --Deemonnic (talk) 23:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, and of course I'll ignore the post above me. So, Jon, if you compare your latest post with your first one, you'll have to say that you actually did make some ignorant comments. Much of Serbian history about Kosovo is not based on true facts, neither is Albanian, though, but you still presume in your posts that the land was Albanian and taken/occupied/conquered by the Serbs, and still asking for others not to post stories, but real facts, and although you admit that Albanians have the same problem, you still say that "history and time is on the Albanian side". Why on theirs? Or better, why on theirs only? Serbian history on Kosovo is not completely based on real evidences, that is true, and I can't see anyone trying to hide it, but most of that history actually is based on evidences. Some of those curches might be built on ruined Byzantian churches, or in rare cases mosques, but still the teim when they are built suggests something else. Also, most of them are not built on foundations of something else. There are still much more historical evidences of Serbian history on Kosovo than on Albanian. Yeah, evidences on ALbanian history might've been ruined, destroyed or assimilated, but they might've aswell never existed.

The point you were trying to make is still true, although I don't understand the point of making such point, nor the point you were trying to make in your first post, it seems a bit like you tried to make 2 different points. However, if that's the only point you were trying to make, then OK.

Also, building one church on ruins of another, or building a mosque on ruins of a church etc. etc. is sadly common to the region of Balkans and there's no reason to connect it to Kosovo and Metohija only, nor to connect it to ortodox churches build on ruins of mosques on Kosovo and Metohija in special.

Next.. those famous ethnical cleansings in Balkans again.. *sigh* First of all situation is a bit different than "Serbs are leaving and that is awful". Serbs are constantly being forced out of Kosovo, and their monuments of culture systematicaly destroyed. And that didn't start to happen only 10 years ago. I mentioned that period only because it's closest to us and it's most obvious to see. Also, if I do like you said, if I look in history, I cannot see any Serbian leader or government which commited systematical ethnical cleansing of Albanians on Kosovo, and completely no evidence that something like that ever happened, other than Albanian claims, and other that sole exeption attempted under Idiotsevic's rule. On the other side, systematical ethnical cleansing of Serbs started much longer ago. I don't have strong evidence to present as a proof that it happened much before WWII, but after WWII there are a lot of them. First things started during the occupation of Yugoslavia, when Albanian guerrila groups gahterred on establishing Great Albania, were performing terroristic acts over Serbian civilians. It continued after the war, when Tito's government forbid those Serbs who left Kosovo and Metohija during the war to return to their homes. It conitnued, in a smaller radius, until 90's. And it reescalated after in a much larger scale. So, if you look it that way, then those crimes against Albanians at the end of Milosevic's rule might also be something you'd expect, right? But is that an exuce? Is there any excuse good enough? No, there is not, and I'm not the one trying to make it, nor I'm saying "yeah, that's awful, poor them". No, criminals and murderers are criminals and murderers, and they should be treated like criminals and murderers, not like heroes. And, for example, Albanian terrorists gathered in so called KLA, are treated like heroes, although they were those who continued ethnical cleansing of Kosovo Serbs. Literraly tons of pages of evidences of KLA members' crimes agains Serbian civilians exist, only after 1990.

Next, that what you say about Serbian orthodox clergy in Kosovo calling for violence is simply a lie or desinformation one can find in Koha Ditore and nowhere else. I can only hear for such calls in soccer games here in Serbia, or on web sides of Serbian neo-nazi organisations. The rest you speak, like I say, is simply not true. Again, you can keep on saying it's true, but don't say that to me, there's no reason because I know myself from the first hand.

And that "Albania was occupied by Serbia" comment is again based on your stories, was the land Albanian or Serbian, blahblahblah.. I would rather say that the region today known as Albania was occupied by Serbia, that's true, during the conquest of Emperor Dusan the Great, but the region which today represents North Albania was Serbian land much before Dusan, as it was one of the first regions South Slavic people settled when they arrived on Balcans. Was that land Albanian before, in more distant past, is something I don't know, but that's something you don't know either, but you claim it as a truth. Let's say it is truth, but that won't make my comment much different. Albanians still live in those lands, Serbs do not. "They were assimilated.." True. Mostly true, at least, but I have no evidence to prove otherwise, and I also believe that heppened. I know that happened, actually, from the events in my family, but that's completely different story. My point is still the same: Serbs no longer live there.

Also, it's a bit ironic to say that time would heal all wounds. I wish I could be an optimist. My people was terrorised only because of their heritage, Albanians did what they wanted, and not what they deserved, and you say to me that we have to be optimists, that te time will heal the wounds? This will not stop until Kosovo is cleansed of Serbs. Kosovo Albanians didn't want to be part of Serbia, but Serbs have to be the part of Albanian Kosovo? Why? Albanians were not fighting for freedom, they were fighting for independance. Right now, Kosovo Serbs struggle to survive. Part of the problem Serbs have is based on bad leadership, but much larger part is based on Albanian aspirations to create ethnically clean Great Albania, and their actions are visible all over Balkans. That way, Kosovo much be cleansed, too, and that's the ultimate goal. Otherwise, simple inter-national lack of tolerance wouldn't make a piece of land ethnically homogenic.

Also, like I said, you don't need to tell me your stories. Honestly, I won't have time neither for them nor for this chit-chat. It's pointless. My friend once said "fighting over internet is like racing in special olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded". And noone will "win" here. You cannot change my point of view after all I had the opportunity to view. I won't even bother to change yours, as I believe you're here for a reason: to spread the word. Go ahead. And I'd give a message to those who would listen: try to check them with Serbs on Kosovo.

Peace be with you.

A. ArhangelSerbia (talk) 20:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear ArhangelSerbia !

I'm not here to fight over the internet or spread the word or win it.

But I love History as an art. Since this page is to discuss history I spend some of my spare time to write my thoughts about it. I consider this page as an informing discussion betwen people that like and know history. You are considering it as a fight. This is the last writing I'm addressing to you if you think that way about what we are doing here.

The article about Kosovo has put across more of the Serbian point of view, that's why I'm deffending the Albanian point of view.

The resons I'm saying that history is on Albanian side is that: Finally the Albanians have something going on for them selfs, after a history of oppretion and poverity. It's their time to have input in their History, something they have not done academicly. When Serbia had an University and developed quite well, albanians were still strugling to read.

About Serb Orthodox Church is not a Lie that they are calling for WAR. Euro News Showing images and translating the speach of Orthodox Church leader in Kosovo the Bishop of Artemija if I'm not mistaken. When Kosovo's Serbian police officers refused to take orders from Albanian Kosovo officers news in that chanel and CNN after Kosovo declared thier indipendence the same bishop calling to take Kosovo back by war.

Serbia Occupied Albania only for a short period of time there was not enough time for Serbian Settlers to come and stay in the country, although a few did remain. Serbia occupied Kosovo for centuries and still they are only 5-10% of the population.

About Serbs Constantly Leaving Kosovo and their Monuments Destroied.

Serbians starting leaving Kosovo from 1998 when the war broke like many Albanians did.

I know of one Church being torched, but not ruined and another robed. What other monuments are you talking about, what destruction? Secondly why do you consider them Serb they are Churches are they not for evey one who belives Serb or not. They are part of Kosovo's inherted culture and monuments, not Serbian only.

About the Serbia being Albanian land I do Know not to be. I never said or wrote anything about it though. What I might have said is that it was Illyrian Land not Albanian. The Albanoi were only one tribe in the Ancient Illyria. Slavs occupied Panonia and some smaller tribes of Illyria as well as parts of Dalmatia and Dardania. Population that did not just dissapear all. That's one of the reasons why, I belive that Serbs of today have more in common with Albanians than Russians race or culture wise.

If you want to discuss Albanian being Indo-Europian that's a different mater, wich I can discuss in the right talk page.

There was never a settlement of South Slavic population as you call it in Albanian territory. They came down as far as Montenegro but not in Albania. Only Administration and soldiers settled in Albania during the Occupation of the country by Dusan and only a few stayed after.

sorry not finished but I have to go....... will finished when possible though.

Jon

Controversy over the “Kosovo is the cradle of Serbia” and “Kosovo is Serbia” affirmations

Today I found an article — “Is Kosovo Serbia? We ask a historian” — on The Guardian about this. Here is the first three paragraphs:

“ "Kosovo is Serbia", "Ask any historian" read the unlikely placards, waved by angry Serb demonstrators in Brussels on Sunday. This is rather flattering for historians: we don't often get asked to adjudicate. It does not, however, follow that any historian would agree, not least because historians do not use this sort of eternal present tense.

History, for the Serbs, started in the early 7th century, when they settled in the Balkans. Their power base was outside Kosovo, which they fully conquered in the early 13th, so the claim that Kosovo was the "cradle" of the Serbs is untrue.

What is true is that they ruled Kosovo for about 250 years, until the final Ottoman takeover in the mid-15th century. Churches and monasteries remain from that period, but there is no more continuity between the medieval Serbian state and today's Serbia than there is between the Byzantine Empire and Greece.

”

Well, maybe it should be useful to cite this in the article or in the article about the history of Kosovo, anyway.

I don't think that the opinion of ONE out of N opinionators in the Guardian should matter that much so as to cite his opinions in a neutral-point-of-view article, such as this article on Kosovo!--_Arbër ^{Let's talk} 07:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

That quote is by N. Malcolm, who is anything but neutral. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

the quote states straighforward historical facts, and does not take any position on the current dispute. All it is saying is that the perpetual harping on medieval history employed by both sides is inherently flawed. Historians know that ethnicities are malleable constructs. National mysticists by definition ignore that fact. Therefore any national mysticist appeal to "history" is bound to be debunked by historians. This holds equally true for Serbian national mysticists and for Albanian national mysticists. dab (𒁳) 10:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it is untrue that Kosovo is the cradle of the Serbs, since they settled a much larger territory in the western part of the Balkans, and at first have centered around other territories, such as Duklja for instance; but on the other hand, it is of course certainly true that Kosovo is "the cradle" of Serbia, which this quote from the Guardian misses to point out. The mediaeval state of Serbia was truly centered around Kosovo, which is therefore poetically referred to as its cradle. Towns in Kosovo such as Peć, Prizren, Novo Brdo etc. were the important centres of the Serbian Church, Serbian nobility with the ruling house of Nemanjić, Serbian industry of that time and so on. This quote from the Guardian cleverly uses weasel wording, proving that Kosovo is not cradle of the ethnic Serbs but omitting its significance in the history of Serbia, so it’s not neutral at all to be cited in the articles on Wikipedia. --George D. Božović (talk) 15:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

In any event the history section of this article is flawed and it needs verification. Most of the statements are not sourced. There needs to be neutral sources from scholarly works. Anything else needs to be removed. Azalea pomp (talk) 21:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Statements from a controversial journalist that just represents a pro-Albanian POV (like Hugo Roth is pro-Serbian) isn't really a scholarly work. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Please did the Guardian list the name of the historian - I think not! By the way I study history and not one of my professors has stated to me when asked are the Albanians the direct decendents of Illyrians that they are I have always got a resounding "NO". So where this reporter got their Historian from I don't know. Majority of Historians actually agree more that Serbian history is correct than not.

Also Dardanians were not the only tribe to live in that region which they so purposely seem to leave out the Scordisci who's name actually comes from the Sar Mountain lived their as so the Thracians. Do they ever mention this - NO! Also there any evidence beyond any resonable doubt that the Illyrians alone lived there and that the Albanians are the direct decendents of them?! Once again no! Also if you read several historical the Romans conquered that particular region in 3BC! I only wish I had the text books with me so I could cite them.

Also it is quite hilarious to see that Kosovo had hardly any history on this page until February 2008. Also it is funny how you always use N.Malcolm for your so called historical evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.215.95.6 (talk) 23:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus on the relationship between the Albanians, Illyrians, Dacians, etc. The only consensus is that all of these groups speak or spoke an Indo-European language. Azalea pomp (talk) 05:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

the "cradle of Serbia" I suppose would be ... White Serbia. Yes, that's a completely different place in Europe. They just decided to move it and walked south. After all, this was 1,400 years ago. Be that as it may, it should be obvious that tribal territories back in the migration period are completely irrelevant for the discussion of modern day politics. dab (𒁳) 17:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn’t agree with you. "They" who decided to move south were the Serbs not "Serbia" as such. Serbia is a country in the Balkans, and its mediaeval centre — or "the cradle" from which it developed — was Kosovo, regardless of its ethnic structure. Kosovo is not the cradle of the Serbs (who came from White Serbia), but it is "the cradle" of Serbia, as it is where Serbia was founded — Serbia wasn’t founded in the place you are referring to. Regardless of the tribal and ethnic territories, the country of Serbia as a political unit was founded and centered around Kosovo, as all or most of its important centres were located there (Prizren, Peć, Vučitrn, Novo Brdo, Trepča). --George D. Božović (talk) 19:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

then your definition of "cradle" is arbitrary. The earliest known settlement of Serbs is White Serbia. All later movements are Serbs moving from A to B and founding some new settlement. Which will you pick as "cradle". According to our Medieval Serbia article, the "cradle" of the kingdom of Serbia may be the Principality of Zeta (today in Montenegro, not Kosovo). But how is that relevant? The kingdom of Serbia has ceased to exist centuries ago. Today, there is just a Republic of Serbia, the "cradle" of which appears to be Belgrade, where the Parliament of Serbia and Montenegro in 1992 created the "State Union of Serbia and Montenegro ". You can pick any other definition of "cradle", but it's just going to get more and more arbitrary. Maybe a reason to ask why we are discussing "cradles" in the first place, and what this has got to do with anything. dab (𒁳) 15:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You’re right. Except that the migrations and settlements of Serbs do not matter at all. I was trying to say that the mediaeval Serbia was centered around Kosovo, regardless of its ethnic structure. Serbia as a country is a geopolitical unit, and may not be related to the Serbs as an ethnic group. Zeta (Doclea) was another kingdom that was founded in the Balkans and is the "cradle" of the present-day Montenegro. And of course, Kosovo is not the "cradle" of modern Serbia, as you point it out, but of the mediaeval kingdom and empire of Serbia. Perhaps it may not but it also may be relevant to mention, as the fact that Kosovo was the centre of the 13th—14th century Serbia, the location of its important institutions, industry, agriculture, the church etc., certainly belongs to Kosovo’s history. --George D. Božović (talk) 23:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The cradle maybe Serbian (I doubt it), but the child inside the cradle is undoubtedly Albanian. --Tubesship (talk) 17:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh, you're funny people, all this talk about nothing :) Sorry, but it is a bit funny. It's not the point WHERE Serbian state begun, if you take it that way India is a cradle of Serbia, as well as Albania.. Don't get it literally.. The region of Kosovo and Metohija maybe really was Albanian, maybe Serbs really took it by force like in XVIII century, heh, and other stories.. but the point is that during the time Kosovo and Metohija became something like sacred land for Serbian people. Not because fanatical Orthodox Church decided to make it sacred so Serbian rule over the place is firmly established, but because of historical events it simply happened that way. Kosovo and Metohija is not a cradle of Serbian country, government, empire, blahblahblah, <enter another unimportant word here>, but it definitely is a cradle of Serbian Orthodox spirituality and religion.

Wether Albanians lived there even before dinosaurs dissapeared, or if they invaded Serbian piece of land in more recent past is completely unimportant. That land is both Serbian and Albanian, not Albanian, not Serbian, not "Kosovar". Both Serbian and Albanian. Both sides have to understand that, and Albanian side has to show that they understood. Why? Right now the power is in their hands, if not justice and law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArhangelSerbia (talk • contribs) 16:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

How could anyone say that article is unbiased? Read the first sentence:"Kosovo is Serbia", "Ask any historian" read the unlikely placards, waved by angry Serb demonstrators in Brussels on Sunday. Why would the opinion of Serb demonstrators be considered a good source for the Republic of Kosovo being part of Serbia? I'm just saying that this article at the beginning of this section should not be used in the Wiki.

Also, what does The Republic of Kosovo being the "cradle of Serbia" have to do with it beign an independent country? Beamathan (talk) 23:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Size of Kosova =

Kosova is not 10,887km squared. There was an agreement by Slobodan Milosevic right before he was sent to the Hague with Macedonia on border demarcation which Slobodan Milosevic gave Macedonia over 10km squared to Macedonia. That is why there are talks between Kosovar Government and Macedonian Government for this land. The correct size is 10,902 or 10,912 (not sure which). I think we should keep an eye on this fact or have a disclaimer perhaps?? 128.206.160.181 (talk)Kosova2008 —Preceding comment was added at 16:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

country box - not recognized

In my view it doesn't make much sense to have something like "not recognized" in the country info box. Since this would necessarily include even those countries which are undecided, have initiated the recognition process or whose positions are unknown. Either we change the wording in something like "explicitly not recognized by xx countries" or we give the total # of countries minus the # of countries recognizing Kosovo (obviously that doesn't make much sense) or we leave it out altogether. Gugganij (talk) 00:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the country infobox needs something like a "partially recognized" flag. Then we can just set that. After all, there are just about half a dozen countries in the world for which this description would apply. dab (𒁳) 17:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo is not merely a region

Kosovo is, in fact, a partially-recognized country, like Israel. It can’t be called a region since all of Kosovo is controlled by the forces that assisted the independence of the country. To call Kosovo a mere "region" is to bend to pro-Serb POV. It would like to all in the article about Israel that the country does not exist and it's a mere "Palestinian territory under Zionist occupation", which would be very pro-Arab POV.

As for now, Kosovo is a country. It could be unjust in the opinion of the Serb nationalists, but this is the fact on the ground. Even in the case of the article about Northern Cyprus (which is recognized only by Turkey), the first description treats it as "a de facto independent republic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.171.54 (talk) 05:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

• Israel is recognized by most other nations as well as by the United Nations. So it is a far different situation. Kosovo independence isn't just disputed by the Serbia. Russia, China, and other nations - including some EU members with seperatists like Spain and Cyprus - emphatically still recognize Kosovo as a Serb province. Joseph (talk) 15:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. Kosovo is internationally recognized country and the number of countries recognizing Kosovo is growing... Kosovo will never be part of Serbia, again. Never.Bosniak (talk) 07:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, internationally recognized? I think you have made a mistake. Also please stop with all that "Kosovo will never ever be a part of Serbia again". ;P It's spamming and WP:POINT, making you look as if you're some sort of a lobbist. :D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo has not been fully recognised by all the UN members, as a result of this Kosovo is not fully recognised as a country. No country can classify itself as one until it has complete UN backing. Kosovo is not a country.

That's correct. I see some recent vandalisms, in the meaning that they violate the NPOV, therefore I have undone the recent changes to more factually correct ones.--_Arbër ^{t •  ?} 09:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

There needs to be two pages, one for the state/country Republic of Kosovo and one page about the historic region or province? This can be like Moldova/Moldavia. Kosovo like Israel is a country recognized by some and not others. We should not be POV and have a page that it is a state. Azalea pomp (talk) 16:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the labored "partially recognized" phrase is entirely unsatisfactory. A country is either recognized by another county or not. It may not be recognized by all countries, but then very few countries are. I would move to strike the qualifier and move the details to another sentence ("declared independence on, recognized by several states so far, but several other states have explicitly denied recognition"). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

But Schulz, in legal terms, it is either recognized or not. 19 countries recognize it - 176 do not. In that manner, for countries which will obviously recognize Kosovo such as Slovenia, according to them Kosovo is still right now a part of Serbia. A Declaration of Independence is not an act that demands some sort of an open statement, which is just as political as any other - there is only one reaction: recognition or not. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

• The term "region" or even "territory" (as in "This article is about the territory in the Balkans. For other uses, see Kosovo (disambiguation).") is a far more NPOV term than either "country" or "Serbian province." Any country or state or province or even a city is a "region", so the term does not imply either statehood or non-statehood. And considering at last count that under 20 countries, out of 200+ worldwide nations, recognize Kosovo sovereignty and even the United Nations does not recognize it (in fact the UN Security Council [under resolution 1244] still recognized Serb sovereignty over Kosovo) it is prudent to use a NPOV term in the lead. Afterwards the aritcle can explain the differing opinions. Joseph (talk) 15:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's not comparable. Israel is an internationally recognized country (perhaps the status could be compared to that of Palestine, rather), whose independence is questioned by some, and not Kosovo which was/is officially a part of Serbia (in a way, sort of, right now), which's independence is only recognized by some. The main also difference is that Israel is a sovereign country (in a way, so is North Cyprus) - Kosovo has a long way towards constitution. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

There should be a separate article for Kosovo as a partially-recognized country under Republic of Kosovo. It's quite possible northern Kosovo will be de facto separated from the rest of Kosovo so it may not be all of Kosovo in the country of Kosovo.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds way too much like a POV fork, and one based heavily on speculation that Kosovo will be fully recognized, only to lose the north in a retro-secession. While I agree that 'the facts on the ground are that it is a country' to paraphrase above, and would prefer to use 'country' or 'nation', I can accept as compromise 'territory' as that word denotes some ownership, while 'region' can be used to describe the Sea of Tranquility and other unowned geographic features. ThuranX (talk) 21:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Serbs were majority on Kosovo and Metohija until Tito ordered by a declaration that all Serbs who were driven away from kosovo(around 450 000) cannot return to their homes,that happened just after the WWII.That is when Serbs became minority on Kosovo not in 19. century.--89.216.200.42 (talk) 15:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not true.

Do you have a source for this? Probably not...I have a 1910 Hammond "Peoples of Europe" map and it shows Kosovo as being mostly Albanian with Serbs in the northern part of Kosovo. Azalea pomp (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The post by 89.216.200.42 stated that Serbians were the majority prior to Tito's actions (circa mid 1940s) and made no mention of Kosovo's demographic composition in 1910. Anyway its a minor point fun for bickering over. If you intend to use single items of "information" for the purpose of writing quality entries or educating others (especially for such hotly disputed topics), then I suggest you leave the Wikipedia community. Your kind of thinking is the kind that results in lowering of the quality of our articles. Simply refer to the Wikipedia article on Kosovo's demographic history and you can observe for yourself the varying (and somewhat contradictory) information with respect to demographics. Gkmx (talk) 04:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

---

-------- -------

I think Wikipedia should just give up on having an article on Kosova. Clearly it will never be anything that anyone can rely on for solid information about the place. One hour it is biased towards one version of history, and another hour it is biased towards a second version. I really do not see any academic or other type of scholar choosing to pick something out of this article. It has pretty much turned into a "Let's see who can edit faster" game, going back and forth with rediculous frequency. Clearly the "officials" who run this project are too incompetent to do anything to bring stability to the article. So why not just shut it down completely and let people rely on other websites? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.92.25 (talk) 01:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

As I have stated before, I do not know why the powers that be on wikipedia do not just create two articles, one for the Republic of Kosovo and another article for the region. This can relieve a lot of the problems because the article as it is now is garbage. It is biased, unsourced, inaccurate, and should not be viewed by anyone. As many people use wikipedia (for better or worse), there needs to be some responsibility for these articles. Azalea pomp (talk) 03:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't share your view of the article's quality. I suppose it is as fair as is at all possible. The suggestion to {{split}} this into two articles has some merit, though. But it would not change much. We'll have an article at Republic of Kosovo and one at Kosovo (region). Then what will we do with Kosovo? Redirect it to Kosovo (disambiguation)? That's a possibility, but the only change will be that this article will then reside under a different title, it won't really affect its content. dab (𒁳) 14:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

To describe it as a mere region goes too far towards the Serb POV. The facts on the ground are that it is independent state. It is unlikely to become a UN member but that is solely due to the Russian veto. The two Germanies didn't become UN members until 1973 - does anyone claim that Germany had not been independent before that date? Kosovo is recognized by 3 permanent members of the security council and six in total. The Serbian Governments POV that Kosovo ought not to be independent needs to be included but the fact is that it is.Dejvid (talk) 12:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

that's beside the point. A country can be independent. It will then have a certain territory. And the territory can correspond to a geographical region. In this case, that region is known as "Kosovo", and the state is known as "Republic of Kosovo". Compare "Italy" vs. the "Republic of Italy": not synonyms, although the shorter term is often loosely used as a short name for the state. "Italy" is literally as old as the hills, while the "Republic of Italy" dates to 1946. It is advisable to remain very clear on the distinction of "Kosovo" (the region) and the "Republic of Kosovo" (the state established 2008) in the case at hand. dab (𒁳) 14:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That is a valid way of looking at it. However if you check you will find that is not how Wikpedia does it. Italy is a page on the Republic of Italy while the region is described in a (rather short) article on the Italian Peninsula.77.101.50.139 (talk) 12:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC) Signed by Dejvid (talk) 12:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• Better examples are Abkhazia and South Ossetia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Josephf (talk • contribs) 19:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

To have a "Kosovo" page and a "Republic of Kosovo" page would allow for less edit disputes. The Kosovo page can continue functioning as it has until recently and the "Republic of Kosovo" page can be the place where people can write about the self-governance in the Region and things related to the current Bananë Republikë of Kosovë. All in all, it would just make edit disputes more avoidable as "Kosovo" can continue offering factual accuracy and "Republic of Kosovo" can offer insight into the current state of affairs from the Albanian side. Gkmx (talk) 16:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

KOSOVO IS A COUNTRY. Look at Republic of China!!! This must change.--Getoar (talk) 19:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Israel controls its own territory and is recognized by the UN and a majority of nations. Kosovo does not control its territory and is not recognized by the UN or a majority of nations. Kosovo is not like Israel. The way I see it, this is no different than the 1991 UDI. In 1991 the Kosovo-Albanians declared independence from Serbia and were recognized by Albania. They've just done the same thing again, the only difference is that they got recognition from more countries this time. The UDI does not change the fact that the UN Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) controls the territory and the UN has not recognized Kosovo's statehood. UNMIK has peacekeepers from China, Canada, and various other countries which do not recognize Kosovo's independence. The way I see it Kosovo's status should remain in the article the same as it was before February 17th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.196.155 (talk) 21:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

As I state above I think the way it is now takes care of any idea of a split. State that Kosovo is in the Balkans, than state that it declared its independence, and then state the countries like Russia and Serbia that disagree with it followed by those that support it. Can we agree that this is a great way of presenting it? I sure think so. 75.67.137.34 (talk) 22:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Mujahideen

The history section currently states that the KLA were supported by mujahideen-fighters, with no citation. Is there any evidence for this?--Barend (talk) 09:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The Scotsman

November 30, 1998, Monday Pg. 7

KLA didn't need any help from the Arabic countries or terrorists 

Albania was more than sufficient help for what they needed, in training, guns, supplies, money and even men. Albanian Diaspora from all over the world was there to help with everything needed as well. One tenth of the KLA soldiers that died, were from countries like USA, Germany, Switzerland and other.

Because most of the population is Muslim, anybody can speculate, especially people that want to justify genocide as war on terrorists.

But that does not make it true.

US TACKLES ISLAMIC MILITANCY IN KOSOVO

Chris Stephen In Pristina

THE United States has asked Kosovo's ethnic Albanian rebels to distance themselves from so called Mujahideen fundamentalists, amid reports that Islamic extremists are arriving to fight in this war-torn province.

KLA leaders have accepted the US request, prompted by fears in Washington that the war in Kosovo will provide fertile ground for Muslim fundamentalists to take root.

Fundamentalists are well established in Albania, despite several raids by the CIA and Albanian security forces that seized five key members of Islamic Jihad and other Middle Eastern groups this summer.

Now a joint CIA-Albanian intelligence operation has reported Mujahideen units from at least half a dozen Middle East countries streaming across the border into Kosovo from safe bases in Albania.

The American request came at an October meeting of US envoys with the leaders of the ethnic-Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army at their headquarters in Geneva.

A senior KLA source told The Scotsman that the group agreed to the request: "It's a clear position; we don't want anything from these people," he said. "Even before they (the US) told us to be careful from them, we'd had this firm understanding."

Approximately a quarter of KLA members are Roman Catholics, and the organisation has insisted throughout this year's fighting that its war with the Serbs, who are Orthodox Christian, is nationalist, and not religious.

But Albanian intelligence services report an influx of Muslim extremists from a variety of countries into Kosovo. "We have information about three or four groups, there are Egyptians, Saudi Arabians, Algerians, Tunisians, Sudanese," said Fatos Klosi, director of the Albanian intelligence service.

The US request was top of a "shopping list" the KLA says the Americans gave it.

As well as refusing offers of help from the Mujahideen, the KLA says it agreed not to use terrorist tactics such as car bombings against the Serbs outside Kosovo.

It also promised not to foment revolt among the ethnic Albanian majority in neighbouring Macedonia.

The KLA is coy about saying what it got in return. So far the answer is very little. The US still says the group cannot be included in peace talks on Kosovo's future until it renounces violence.

But behind the rhetoric, the US is worried that unless it makes concessions, it might drive the rebel movement into the arms of the fundamentalists.

One vital concession to the KLA came earlier this year, when it had the unusual honour of being take off a register of organisations the US defines as "terrorists".

This is a valuable asset, not just in terms of public relations.

It also makes fund-raising among ethnic Albanians abroad much easier.

For the Americans, giving the KLA tacit support is a tightrope.

Shunning it might drive them into the arms of fundamentalists such as Osama Bin Laden -blamed for bombing US embassies in Africa this summer -whose men are already operating in Albania.

But supporting them could give a shot in the arm for the KLA's aim of full independence for Kosovo -something the West fears might fuel uprisings in other parts of the world.

For the moment, the US appears to be leaning on the side of support. Most observers in Kosovo think the current lull in fighting has more to do with winter weather than the ceasefire brokered under threats of NATO action in October.

The majority Albanian population remains committed to independence, and the Serb leadership remains committed to stopping that, with both sides rearming and planning for fighting in the spring.

It is also unclear if the KLA's Geneva leadership really controls all the rebel units on the ground, many of whom follow competing political factions.

How many Islamic volunteers are in Kosovo is equally uncertain. Few have been sighted by the western monitors in the province.

The full strength and political sway of Mujahideen units will only become clear when the spring arrives and warriors again pull the covers from their guns. Amenifus (talk) 10:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Do we have the permission of Chris Stephen to reprint US TACKLES ISLAMIC MILITANCY IN KOSOVO in this section? If not, please remove it, and then link to wherever it was originally published.Beamathan (talk) 23:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations, please

I think nearly anyone reading the above would have to conclude that there exists dispute over almost everything said in the article. Accordingly, editors should adopt the highest standard of scholarship they can manage in documenting their statements. As of this writing, most citations are incomplete. Rather than endless bickering over which side of each dispute is right, why not get on with improving the citations that are there. For an article this active, it should only take a few days to get them all properly cited. LeadSongDog (talk) 14:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think for the moment the History of Kosovo should be left at main generalities of what we know for a fact from the history. Without going to talk about Serbian exodus or Ancient Dardanians the so called Albanian Kosovars of today, or other disputed parts of the known history that is not based on facts.

Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.11.216 (talk) 08:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup notice

This is a WP:SS article. The history of Kosovo is discussed at History of Kosovo. What we want here is a brief summary of that article, just like with the remaining h2 sections in this article. I intend to mercilessly compress the excessive detail duplicated here, with the aim of compressing the "History" section, at present taking up over half of this article, to below a third of total article length. In particular, the "20th century" section is excessive, per the {{shorten}} tag. There is 20th century history of Kosovo, and I would ask people interested in discussing the 20th century history of Kosovo to work on that article. --dab (𒁳) 16:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It looks like a very funny article. Probably serbs wrote it!!! Piasoft (talk) 21:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the history section needs cleaning up by admin, it's repeating itself:

"The Ottomans brought Islamisation with them, particularly in towns, and later also created the Vilayet of Kosovo as one of the Ottoman territorial entities. Kosovo was taken by the Austrian forces during the Great War of 1683–1699 with help of 6,000 Albanians and their leader, the Catholic Archbishop Pjetër Bogdani, who published his classic Band of the Prophets in 1686. The campaign resulted in a brief liberation of Kosovo, but after a plague breakout among Austrians and Kosovars, the Turks soon recovered all their lost areas. Bogdani himself died in December 1689, while his remains were inhumanely exhumed by Turks and Tatars and fed to dogs.[8] The loss had a negative impact on the wellbeing all inhabitants of Kosovo, whose liberation was not realized in an 18th-century Austrian endeavor either. During the Ottoman period, nonetheless, there was recorded a great amount of endeavors to promote the Albanian language and culture. The Catholic cleric who authored the earliest known Albanian book, Gjon Buzuku, is believed to have been of Kosovar origin. Moreover, the Catholic bishop, Pjetër Bogdani, a native of Kosovo, published his classic Band of the Prophets in 1686, and later headed the anti-Ottoman movement. His engagement in the national cause culminated in 1689, when he raised a 20,000-member army comprised of Christian and Muslim Albanians, who joined the Austrians in their war against Turkey. The campaign resulted in a brief liberation of Kosovo, but after a plague breakout among Austrians and Kosovars, the Turks soon recovered all their lost areas. Bogdani himself died in December 1689, while his remains were inhumanely exhumed by Turks and Tatars and fed to dogs.[9] The loss had a negative impact on the wellbeing all inhabitants of Kosovo, whose liberation was not realized in an 18th-century Austrian endeavor either." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.249.192 (talk) 00:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

ISO 3166-1 alpha-3?

This may be somewhat presumptive of me...but would a decision on the ISO (and other organisation) codes be made any time this year? Or has one already been decided? In the back of my mind I half-recall a website suggesting KOS or KSV but I guess this may be nerdish dreaming....doktorb _words^deeds 15:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Does the Soviet Union have a veto there? If so, don't expect an ISO code anytime soon. (212.247.11.155 (talk) 09:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC))

LOL !!! I dont think today there exists any Soviet Union. That's part of the history, just like yugoslavia.Piasoft (talk) 13:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the Soviet Union is a little out of date now :) doktorb _words^deeds 10:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosova redirect missing

Shouldn't we redirect Kosova to Kosovo as it is used by the Kosovars themselves? --Tubesship (talk) 23:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Name Box

Why is the Serbian name in the name box "Kosovo i Metohija"? That does not seem to be the translation of "Republika e Kosovës"... Shouldn't the name box always give the official names of the country in its official languages? Instead, this one give two different names in two different languages.. This is both confusing and inconsistent with the Wikipedia standard. Luis rib (talk) 23:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

KOSOVO: CIA World FactBook

1. CIA World Factbook has finally added Kosovo entry among other countries of the world! Here is a link: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kv.html

2. And here is how map of Serbia looks like at CIA World FactBook! Here is a link: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rb.html Bosniak (talk) 01:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the CIA. Thucydides of Thrace (talk) 05:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

LOL who said that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.31.56 (talk) 23:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see, based on what they have concluded on that the history of Kosovo is what they write about.

Only Serbia has had a say so far in that regions history. Nether Albanians from Kosovo or Albanians of the republic have had any say in it. Albanian representation in the international communities did not exist until recently. That’s why the world only knows that version of the history and not a consolidated true history.

Jon

Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.11.216 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

CIA Factbook updated

The Kosovan page is updated and Kosovo is treated like any other sovereign state: Kosovo - on the map, the Serbian/Kosovan border is marked as the UNMIK-line... Also the Serbian page has been updated accordingly: Serbia, with the border on the map marked as the UNMIK-line. Maybe the CIA will update the border when the EULEX takes over after the UNMIK... --Camptown (talk) 19:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, since the CIA World Factbook represents the views of the US government (which has recognized Kosovo) that is not very surprising (it would have been surprising if they hadn't). In general, the CIA World Factbook is not a good source of information on matters like this (or most matters, one could argue).Osli73 (talk) 09:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The map, again

As we have saw before here, there are people who again and again alterate and/or revert the map of Kosovo in the main box of the article to say in a subtle way that “Kosovo is Serbia Forever”.

The current map on the article shows what I’m talking about:

And the map that was there before was recently altered by some recent user called… Serbish:

I think that this does not reflect the current situation on the ground, and as the same way that happens in other Wikipedia articles about other partially-recognized countries and territories (like the Falkland Islands, which Argentina still considers part of its territory occupied by UK):

So I think Kosovo should be shown in relation to Europe, not in relation to Serbian claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.172.128 (talk • contribs)

Lol at that map! you gotta admit though, that is kinda funny ... :D XYaAsehShalomX (talk) 01:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Could we please have both the accepting and denying nations shown on the map? i understand that the 'maybe' nations aren't shown, but i feel the map lacks the 'naysayers', i suggest using red color for those if the supporters remain green, that is good for the visual backing of the difference (Jorian Drake (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

Split?

Would it be better to have one article discussing Kosovo as a region (history, demographics, geography, culture with a section following to articles on the recent declaration of independence and governance) and another article for the Republic of Kosovo as a partial recognized state claiming the territory of Kosovo (newly adopted symbols, economy, etc.)? These two articles already exist, but I think most of the information on this article should be transfered to the Kosovo article. --Hegumen (talk) 03:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• No it won't be better - here Kosovo is associated with the republic/province of Kosovo, which consists of the entire geographical area of Kosovo. This is different than the case of RoM and Macedonia, where the republic IS NOT associated with the entire region... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.91.72 (talk) 06:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Hegumen, although the Peoples Republic of China dominates the Chinese mainland and is informally referred to as China, there is the claim by the Republic of China (situated in Taiwan) to the entire Chinese continent. Wikipedia currently has a section called China which is simply for the region, it divides into the two titles above for both states that lay claim to it.--R-41 (talk) 19:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• This is just nonsense. The article starts off calling Kosovo a region, yet we have an infobox right there calling it Republic of Kosovo, the name of the newly-declared nation, and the article has the same basic format of an article on an independent nation, yet it calls it a region rather than a nation. Then we have a separate article for the region of Kosovo which is really just a redirect for the article on geography of Kosovo. In fact, the article here is what you get when looking for Kosovo and it's treated like any other regular nation, which is far from what it is. With Macedonia where the only real dispute is the name, a rather silly dispute I might add, Wikipedia does not automatically go to the article on the nation, but goes to a disambiguation page. The same is true of China and Taiwan. Neither will send you to either country because one is not recognized as an independent country or as a having that name and the other is part of the official name for both countries. Since many large countries recognize Kosovo still as a province of Serbia under the official name of that province and other large countries recognize it as an independent na

tion under the name of Republic of Kosovo the fact Kosovo is automatically the article for the latter is just completely biased. I suggest having Kosovo go to the disambiguation page and actually have a separate article on Kosovo as a region rather than link to the geography page since it does generally correspond to a region of some historical significance. Then the contents of this article now would be under the article Republic of Kosovo which could actually call it a partially recognized state.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 08:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Hegumen. We need a Republic of China/China type of approach here. This can be implemented rather quickly. dab (𒁳) 12:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I tried to implement such a "China" solution for now. Please review it. I do think this is where we will end up eventually, but perhaps I have been over-bold. In this case, let's just revert the split for now and look at other options. dab (𒁳) 13:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This is not good in any case. Because of your copy-paste move, the history is not seen. Please, use the redirects and correct the mess. --Tone 14:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

As opposed to simple moves, it is impossible to split an article without copy-pasting I am afraid. What would you like me to fix? I am also unsure how to deal with arbcom probation. I suggest it is reasonable to assume that both articles inherit the pertinent restrictions. dab (𒁳) 16:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I am opposed to the whole idea of the split. A simple fix for both GDFL issues resulting from the loss of article history and loss of authorship data as well as all other issues is to undo the split. I see that this suggestion was already formed above as, "but perhaps I have been over-bold. In this case, let's just revert the split for now and look at other options." I won't revert it myself since the article is on probation but I vote for exactly this solution the reverting of the split. Hobartimus (talk) 17:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

GFDL has nothing to do with it. Articles are split all the time. But if there is opposition to the split on grounds of content, I invite you to undo it and explain what the problem is. dab (𒁳) 17:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I always thought that GDFL said something about attributing the authors, which we do via the history. If the text is moved, at the new place the authors will no longer be visible. It's true that sometimes it can't be helped of course or my understanding of the whole thing might be simply weak. I'm against the split on content also but these types of choices should be made based on consensus maybe a survey is in order. As I said I won't touch the article with respect to the article probation, if split is what most editors want I'm fine with that too. Hobartimus (talk) 17:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it possible to copy the history before the split to the other page?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

can we take technical and legal issues of article splitting to WP:SPLIT or Template talk:Split please, and focus on the topic itself here, please? My edit was intended as an illustration of what a "China / Republic of China" solution might look for in the case of Kosovo. If people don't like it, we can revert to where we were. But let us not drown this question by discussing technical details. dab (𒁳) 18:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose. The main article should be about the European country - "Kosovo". --Camptown (talk) 20:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

hah, "country" as in region, or "country" as in Republic? You've got your finger right on it there. --dab (𒁳) 20:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should split Serbia instead - the land of splitting image... --Camptown (talk) 20:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No need for different articles. We need only 1 article on Kosovo, and that's Kosovo as a Republic. Bosniak (talk) 21:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Strongly oppose spliting. The majority of teh EU, NATO, UNSC permanant members and G8 recognise Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2007apm (talk • contribs) 00:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose splitting. POV fork. Húsönd 00:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I oppose merely because in English language standard Kosovo is referring to the political entity primarily (if not solely). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 00:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

!vote OPPOSE. Wasn't this vote JUST taken last weekend? This repetitive soliciting for !votes till one side gets its way is asinine. ThuranX (talk) 00:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Sounds like a POV fork. --Tsourkpk (talk) 00:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh geez. IT'S NOT A POV FORK! Fact is, presently this article is strongly biased just by the mere fact it is under Kosovo. A search for Kosovo on Google gets this article. This is a Western bias towards the Western position on Kosovo. That or it's Albanian bias, I don't know who started the article. However, this is simply unacceptable. There has to be some sort of split. I think having a separate article "Republic of Kosovo" and having this page be a disambiguation page is the only fair thing to do. Presently Russia, China, India, Argentina, Venezuela, Spain, Ukraine, and South Africa among others do not recognize Kosovo as a nation and continue to recognize Kosovo as a part of Serbia. In particular, Russia, Spain, Venezuela, and Argentina are some countries which have made this explicit.

Having the article put Kosovo on the same level of nations like Germany, Canada, and Japan is just ridiculously biased. Kosovo is a highly controversial and rare case and should be approached with great caution. There is no caution with this article. This article is like a big "F-U" to Serbia. The whole thing is a mess because some people here want to assert their personal opinions on Kosovo. It's simple Kosovo's status is disputed, hotly disputed, and Wikipedia should not be taking sides. Right now Wikipedia is taking sides.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyways dude, who cares about Serbia, they are irrelevant. Kosovo is independent, and neither you nor Serbia will change it. Bosniak (talk) 02:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You see, that's kind of my point. Many people wanting this article kept as is are biased towards one side, which is exactly the problem. The article represents a bias. That is simply unacceptable.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

There is simply no reason to create a POV fork. I don't understand if arguments like "This article is like a big "F-U" to Serbia" were supposed to be taken seriously or not? Since the protection of the article was lifted the article was massively edited to conform to a Serbian POV by a series of edits. The evidence is all there in the history anyone can compare the two versions. Hobartimus (talk) 02:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The point I was making is this article just screams of bias by the mere fact that a controversial nation is treated like any old country.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes exactly. What they are trying to do is to conform this article to the Serbian POV. But no matter what I say, no matter what they say, no matter what God says, Kosovo will never be Serbia. And instead of wasting my time debating indisputable facts (such as that Kosovo will never be Serbia), I am going to get my champagne and celebrate Serbia's loss of Kosovo. I have been so happy since Kosovo's declaration of independence, I trully feel NEWBORN.Bosniak (talk) 02:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop trolling. ThuranX (talk) 05:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to conform it to any POV. That's why I'm suggesting this article be split, because right now it does conform to a POV, one favoring Kosovo's independence.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to do with a pov fork. There is a Republic of Kosovo (since 2008). This article is about the region of Kosovo. About 60% of this article discusses the history (pre-2008) of the region which ostensibly has nothing to do with the disputed Republic. Implying that "Kosovo" is equivalent to the "Republic of Kosovo" is pov. It is one notable pov, but nevertheless pov. Now that the events have slowed down a bit, it appears likely that the status of the Republic of Kosovo will remain disputed at least for the next few years. There will be no way around treating the region separately from the Republic in order to comply with WP:NPOV: Doing so does not prejudice against independence, as is evident from e.g. Italian peninsula vs. Republic of Italy (nobody disputes the independence of the Republic of Italy, yet its territory can still be treated as a separate entity. dab (𒁳) 06:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

ok, reviewing opinions above, the only "oppose" vote with a recognizable rationale is PaxEquilibrium's. The rest appears to be either trolling or failure to understand what is being proposed ("pov fork", "GFDL"). ThuranX, we are not "voting". We discussed the possibility above, and are now looking at its implementation. Until The RoK has at least UN recognition (which will take a couple of years at least it would seem), I really see no way around the split that would satisfy WP:NPOV. A possible alternative would be keeping a "Republic of Kosovo" h2 section within this article, and moving the country infobox to that, but country infoboxes pertinent to a section only are discouraged, and I do think the Republic of Kosovo is notable enough to warrant a dedicated article. PaxEquilibrium seems to propose that Kosovo should redirect to Republic of Kosovo, while the article on the territory could be at Kosovo (region). This is arguable I think, but open to criticism. The only entirely unbiased approach would be redirecting Kosovo to Kosovo (disambiguation). If we really can find no other consensus, we'll have to do that, but it's not nice in terms of navigability. dab (𒁳) 13:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Please don't dismiss valid reasons for opposing as "failure to understand". I can understand the proposal and arguments very well and I still think splitting this article would be unnecessary, redundant and a POV fork. Húsönd 13:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, but how is a split a pov fork? It goes without saying that a split should avoid pov forks. It is valid to keep summaries of dedicated articles in WP:SS articles. Otherwise, this article would already be a content fork, of History of Kosovo and other articles. Please explain why (a) you think the split is "unnecessary", and (b) why you (it appears) think it would necessarily result in a "pov fork". Unless you can explain some rationale for these claims, I do not think you should be making them. This article has de facto already been split into History of Kosovo, Geography of Kosovo, Politics of Kosovo, Demographics of Kosovo and Subdivisions of Kosovo. An article on the 2008 Republic at Republic of Kosovo would just add one more to these. How, do you argue, is it "redundant" or "pov" to have that, while it is ok to have "Ottoman Kosovo" or "Kosovo (UNMIK)"? dab (𒁳) 13:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You're confusing content that is taken from this article so that its size won't be excessive (leading to the creation of sub-articles such as History of Kosovo, etc.) and a POV fork. By creating an article about the region of Kosovo, you will provide Wikipedia with an article that is redundant (content about the region has its rightful place in articles such as Geography of Kosovo), thus unnecessary, and allowing the creation of a duplicate article of Kosovo that doesn't mention its de facto independence (purpose- pov). Húsönd 13:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not confusing anything, since I happen to argue there is no "pov fork". A "pov fork" is an article with a scope identical to another one but pushing a different view. No such thing is happening here. Nobody suggests "duplication". There is a "Republic of Kosovo", declared 2008, which can have its own article just like the one declared 1990 can have one, here. What does this have to do with pov forks? Is China a pov fork of Republic of China? Is Indian subcontinent a pov fork of Republic of India? If not, pray explain how you can argue that Republic of Kosovo is a pov fork of Kosovo region. (the question of where unqualified Kosovo should redirect is independent of claims of "pov forks"). Needless to say, the "Kosovo region" article will mention up front that the region since 2008 is claimed by the Republic of Kosovo. I do not understand where you get your assumption that the article "doesn't mention" the fact, since it ostensibly did, and nobody suggested it shouldn't. dab (𒁳) 13:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

China is not the same as the Republic of China, and neither is the Indian subcontinent the same as India. The region of Kosovo coincides with the newborn republic, we need an article about the region of Kosovo as much as we need an article about the region of Belgium or the region of Finland. Húsönd 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Except both of those countries are actually UN members, recognized by all relevant countries. No one seriously disputes their claims to sovereignty and nationhood. With Kosovo there's a huge division of opinion and right now this article takes a side.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

plus, the Republic of China in fact claims all of China as its territory. Just like the Republic of Kosovo claims all of the Kosovo region, while the region de facto remains under UN control, plus the Provisional Government has little or no governance over Northern Kosovo. You are dodging the issue. The point is that identifying the region and the Republic is not NPOV. The discussion should really end there, since WP:NPOV is not negotiable. Both povs are notable. One is held by the RoK and the "West", the other by Serbia, Russia and China. We do not favour one pov because it is held by the Western Hemisphere. dab (𒁳) 20:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

UN membership and Kosovo's recognition have no relevance to this proposal. The dispute is already very well described in the article. I don't think this article takes a side, it is actually quite neutral. Húsönd 20:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

the description is fine. The country infobox is not. If we can agree to remove the country infobox, the problem will be solved, but then we'll need a Republic of Kosovo article so we can place the infobox there, won't we. You can't slap a RoK flag on this article and still claim it is neutral on the dispute. dab (𒁳) 20:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the infobox is fine, it reflects the de facto and partial de jure political situation of Kosovo. I would not oppose the insertion of another infobox that would reflect its status as a province of Serbia though. But again, the current infobox must by all means stay, it wouldn't be encyclopedic otherwise. Húsönd 20:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I only hope that edits will be based on real consensus of editors whatever the final solution may be. Hobartimus (talk) 21:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

this doesn't make sense. the infobox is for articles on states. the "Republic of Kosovo" is a state. "Kosovo" is a term in a sort of Schrodingerian state of flux, and this article is the untenable result of terminological confusion and conflation. The split is necessary to get straight on article scopes. What do you propose is the scope of this article? dab (𒁳) 17:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed the "split" tag. The same user who inititated the split has obviously redirected Republic of Kosovo into Kosovo again. --Camptown (talk) 08:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

stop trolling this discussion. dab (𒁳) 17:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

You're obviously running out of civilized arguments when you're barking "stop trolling". Why did you redirect the article if we were all so wrong? Where are your expounded coherent arguments when you actually need them? --Camptown (talk) 22:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I've put the split tag back. I support having two articles, Kosovo (region) and Republic of Kosovo, with Kosovo as a disambig. Clearly, as this section shows, discussion is ongoing. Superm401 - Talk 15:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The article was redirected already back to Kosovo there is no reason to clutter this important main article with extra banners. There is still a great deal of outside intrest in the article such things make it look amateurish. Hobartimus (talk) 15:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the Republic of Kosovo article was initially redirected by 2007apm, not Dbachmann, as claimed by Camptown. Second, it doesn't matter who redirected it because this issue is being actively discussed. It doesn't matter if there's outside interest either. We need to have an open discussion, and that means leaving the banner up. Superm401 - Talk 16:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

That's nonsense. I never claimed that dab initiated the redirect in 2007, but did so yesterday, but left the tag on the Kosovo article for reasons not known to me. --Camptown (talk) 22:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I support a split until Kosovo is recognised by a majority of UN member states. Until then the state of Kosovo is disputed. --82.183.224.40 (talk) 16:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

it is clear that we need a split one way or the other. Either keep this article under "Kosovo" discussing the 2008 state (which imho is non-neutral), or keep it as discussing the region and its history. One or the other needs to be branched out. Which will it be, Kosovo region or Republic of Kosovo? dab (𒁳) 17:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If you feel so strongly about it I suggest we create a survey with the possible options such as 'Keep as is' 'Split and create Kosovo region' etc. It would be a good opportunity to gauge consensus regarding such a move. Survey should run for a standard time to allow in those user who don't edit the article every day I don't know what is the standard in such cases.Hobartimus (talk) 18:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no fixed opinion at all, except that WP:NPOV needs to be observed carefully. Slapping a country infobox onto "Kosovo" clearly violates this policy. There is a number of ways how this could be addressed. I also strongly recommend that "votes" along the lines of "Oppose!!! Kosovo will [never/always] be Serbia!", and unconstructive non-sequiturs of the Camptown variety, be ignored or even just removed per WP:TALK. Only contributors that appear to be aware of the problem wrt Wikipedia policies need be considered. dab (𒁳) 09:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Options

opinion poll:

1. accommodate the "Republic of Kosovo" under Kosovo, "Kosovo the Autonomous Province" under Kosovo (UNMIK) and Kosovo the historical/geographical region under "Kosovo region".

2. accommodate the "Republic of Kosovo" under Republic of Kosovo, "Kosovo the Autonomous Province" under Kosovo (UNMIK) and Kosovo the historical/geographical region under "Kosovo".

• weak preference, others are arguable too. dab (𒁳) 15:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• This one, or the one under this. It's the most suitable... And until the disputes have been settled (which may never happened, just look at China/Cyprus/Macedonia etc.). Chandlertalk 20:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• preferred, Osli73 (talk) 09:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
• Agreed, this would make it equivelant to other entities under dispute as there are a number of countries on Wikipedia which are not directly called by their short title, but by their official title due to disputes, such as the article Peoples Republic of China often referred to as "China" though the Republic of China often called "Taiwan" also claims the title of being "China"; Republic of Ireland often referred to as "Ireland" is disputed because there is British sovereignty in the section of North Ireland, and the Republic of Macedonia often referred to as "Macedonia" even though Greece condemns the country's use of the name, as "Macedonia", they claim represents parts of Greece. Finally, the Tibet Autonomous Region often called "Tibet", has its own article, the article Tibet speaks of the general region itself, rather than the political infrastructure. The Republic of Kosovo should be treated the same as these Wikipedia articles on disputed regions.--R-41 (talk) 17:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

We should avoid putting everything into the same salad bowl. In the case of China, there are two countries calling themselves "China", so having separate pages for them makes some sense. In the case of Ireland, the country of Ireland does not cover the whole of the island, so it makes sense too to have an article on the whole island. In the cases of Macedonia and Tibet, edit warring led to present situation. I could see a case for having a single Tibet article, and for having Macedonia being actually the page of the Republic of Macedonia. Just because these two cases were solved badly that does not mean we should do the same here. Khuft (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

• This is indeed the only sensible option, the only option ultimately consistent with NPOV. It works well with so many other cases and where it isn't used yet (Abkhazia) this is only because no one has made serious work of it yet. sephia karta 00:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

3. accommodate the "Republic of Kosovo" under Republic of Kosovo, "Kosovo the Autonomous Province" under Kosovo (UNMIK) and Kosovo the historical/geographical region under "Kosovo region", and redirect Kosovo to Kosovo (disambiguation).

• This looks guaranteed to piss off every POV, but label things extra tidy for each to bitch about equally. Thus, I support this. Let's keep no one happy. ThuranX (talk) 11:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
• Since this is basically the proposal I made, I'm for this.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
• I support this, though I think 2 is also acceptable. Superm401 - Talk 04:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
• I support this for the same reason ThuranX does. A compromise is a solution that everyone finds equally unacceptable, and this is certainly that. Ok, now for my real reason: The use of a disambiguation page will also make it easier for people to find the exact information they are looking for without preference or bias. Every other option favours either "province" or "state" except for crazy options number 4 and 5 (EDIT: But which comes first on those pages? You just KNOW there will be edit wars over which option shows up first on the page, and which one gets the "loser spot" at the bottom)Gopher65_talk 15:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC). Unless I am blind this is the only option that offers a disambiguation page, so this is the one that I support. This option is the least unfair to all parties. Gopher65_talk 15:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

4. keep all of "Kosovo as Autonomous Province of Serbia", "Republic of Kosovo" and "Kosovo as geographical and historical region" in a single article, without a country infobox.

5. keep all of "Kosovo as Autonomous Province of Serbia", "Republic of Kosovo" and "Kosovo as geographical and historical region" in a single article, with one customized infobox under "declaration of independence (2008)", and another one under "UN protectorate (1999 to present)".

• --George D. Božović (talk) 21:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Time to delete the splits

Right now, there are two almost identical articles about Kosovo, i.e. Kosovo and Republic of Kosovo. I'd suggest that Republic of Kosovo be piped and merged (no need as it is identical) with Kosovo and accordingly be deleted. --Camptown (talk) 08:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

A project page for a suggested deletion has been set up at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of Kosovo --Camptown (talk) 09:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree the split should be made. However, untill that time, we should delete the flag, coat of arms, etc from the Kosovo article, since they are specific to the Republic of Kosovo and not the region of Kosovo.Osli73 (talk) 10:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Camptown, you quite clearly have no idea how this works. If we decide not to split the article, we'll just redirect Republic of Kosovo back here. There is no way we'll delete the title, since it is the official name of the country. Comments like your "Maybe we should split Serbia instead - the land of splitting image" shows that not only have you no idea what is going on, but that you are actually trolling this discussion. dab (𒁳) 12:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Just another typical comment from an editor who spends most of his time cracking down on other editors who don't agree with him, but actually care for this project. Yet, indeed, if it's "just" soooo easy, I'd ask this editor to redirect Republic of Kosovo right away (as it was until two days ago before this silly split). And if, in future, the article Kosovo grows out of proportion, there is always an opportunity to move some material to Kosovo (region) etc. --Camptown (talk) 18:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

well, except that instead of "cracking down", I'm actually expounding a coherent argument, while you seem to prefer random personal attacks, incoherent muddying of the issue and the occasional trollish aside. Now please stop your non sequiturs, contribute to the discussion coherently and in good faith, or else make use of your right to remain silent. dab (𒁳) 20:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Ehh... So you're actually "expounding a coherent argument" (sic!).... --Camptown (talk) 07:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

sic, indeed. "expounding" as in "set forth, declare, state in detail". "coherent" as in "of which all the parts are consistent, and hang well together" and "argument" as in "a reason urged in support of a proposition". Are there any questions, or are you just echoing my words back at me because you have run out of things to say? dab (𒁳) 17:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

This sentence: "Serbs, like Russians, are mainly Slavs by ethnicity while Kosovars are mostly ethnic Albanians." has no obvious connection with the chapter Declaration of independence under which it is written. Not to mention it is erroneous (as Slavs are not an ethnicity but a group of ethnicities speaking simmilar languages. And Serbs are claerly Serbs by ethicity and Russians, Russians) and irrelevant. I propose that the sentence be deleted; or at least be put in some sort of context. Rokpok (talk) 20:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

NO, NO, NO. You are deeplig wrong. Ethnitc (Rase) is somthing els als member of a Church. The ortodox church must make reform´s to be sayed so clean thate Serbs are Serbs and Russians are Russians!!!. This hase no to do with politic but Russians are like the Arab. We have the peopel in Maroko, they call himself arab, but they hase nothing to do with arabs ethnity. It is simpel, they speack some santens of arabish with ther old laungege and they call himself arab. There cultur and blut hase nothing to do with arabs more with fundamenta muslims witch makes masakers like in Algeria. Biologicel and politicel they are not arab (Simpel they are muslims, but not arab). It is a same situation with Russians and Serbs (Simpel they are Ortosox, but they are not all Serbs and Russians).

True .

The Serbs of today would be suprised to know that most of them are not slavic any more, but behave like one, because of their invasion of that land as Salvs.

There are 10 different races that have shaped Serbian race of today, like most of the Balkans.

Some like Illyrian Panonians, Dardanians, Albanians, Thracians also Celts, Dacians, Germanic and a lot more.

The things that Serbs have in common with Russian are: The origin of their language and religion.

It would be a very small minority with a clean Slavic race in Serbia of today.

I think a soon as they realise that the better they will do for them selvs.

Meaning that rather then looking at Russia for help, they should be building their future with the neighbours.

The most prosperous periods in Serbian History has always been, when they made an effort to co-exist with their neighbours.

Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.11.216 (talk) 09:54, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Links in article about Kosovo

...I would like to point out that there are some discrepancies when it comes to links on the bottom of the page...For instance: There is a link to Sovereign states of Europe article, while Kosovo is not included in that article...it can be found in Unrecognized Republics, Territories or Regions, so link should be changed to match the List of Countries in Europe article. Also, there is a dead link on the bottom - International membership and history...it should be removed. 24.199.84.132 (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)G

Infobox removed AGAIN!

Can User:Dbachmann in detail explain why he moved the Kosovo infobox "per talk". I understand, there is no consensus to move the infobox. Yet, user:Dbachmann has done so repeatedly and I gather there are some editors who wonder on what basis "per talk" he justifies his action. --Camptown (talk) 22:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The "no consensus" is mainly because people with a blatant POV want to push Kosovo statehood down everyone's threats and make them swallow. This article shouldn't exist as it does now. At the very least this article should be renamed to "Republic of Kosovo" and Kosovo being made a disambiguation page. At the most there should be a separate article for Kosovo as a historical region. Kosovo wasn't always called Kosovo, but China hasn't always been called China either. China in ancient times also did not cover the area it does today. So I see nothing wrong with having an article on the region of Kosovo in the mold of the article on China.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I have made very clear that as long as we do not implement the split, we have no dedicated article on the Republic, just one on "Kosovo" in general. Until we implement a split as laid out above, there is no way this article can be tagged with the "country" infobox. Camptown, you have repeatedly shown disconcerting lack of good faith, and unless you begin showing appreciation of this problem, and take some sort of coherent position wrt it, I don't think your continued objections should carry any weight. dab (𒁳) 07:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

But that's Dbachmann's personal opinion. Dbachmann needs to get support before making important changes to articles such as this. And Dbachmann shouldn't remain a WP admin if he cannot understand that simple rule of order. I don't take any particular notice of Dbachmann's freshness against me, but the wp project doesn't benefit from admins who are repeatedly ignoring the rules and behave badly towards other editors, gets involved in endless debates etc. Dbachmann is not a roll model for an admin, and Dbachmann knows that perfectly well. --Camptown (talk) 09:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

uh-huh. a few diffs of yours from this page should suffice to establish where are you coming from. Further personal remarks to my talkpage please. now do you have anything you wish to say on the topic itself, or do you simply enjoy disrupting the debate here? dab (𒁳) 15:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious camptown, what problem do you have with my proposal? What exactly is your objection to having this Kosovo dispute resolved through a separate article on Republic of Kosovo? Why don't we treat this issue with Kosovo like the issue with China? Kosovo is a historical region like China and like Macedonia, but it's also the name of a partially-recognized country, it's also the name of what is currently recognized by many countries as a Serbian province. So why do you have a problem with having the subject dealt with in the same manner as China?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The reasons are more practical than sentimental or logical in a historical perspective. Kosovo differs slightly from the Chinese example. There are not multiple Kosovan states (not yet anyway), so there is no practical need to distinguish one Kosovo state from another. Compare instead to the Russian example. "Russia" is by many Russians considered a territory somewhat bigger than the Russian Federation. Yet, the link Russia leads you to the article about the state (with links to disambigious links to other meanings of Russia, such as the territorial concept). The Republic of Kosovo will most likely be called just Kosovo, just like the Republic of Serbia will be called Serbia and so on. Therefore, the renaming of the article to "Republic of Kosovo" appears unnecessary as long as the country/fake state is not called that in daily speech (and now we are taking about the English speaking world outside Serbia). However, I'd support a split, but only if the country/fake state is called "Kosovo", and the territory is called e.g. "Kosovo (region)". After all the present region of Kosovo is even smaller than the country/fake state, so a split might be very well be justified. I also understand thate there are some Serbian concerns that the new country/fake state should not be "awarded" the part of the history which is so much related to Serbia and the Serbian Orthodox Church. But, as many countries have shifted greatly in size during the history, that shouldn't be to hard to solve. --Camptown (talk) 00:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you have to realize Russia and Kosovo are not similar. That's actually the problem. The question isn't whether it's practical or not. I'd say remaining neutral can be quite impractical. Perhaps instead of China I should specifically mention Taiwan. While most media call the nation Taiwan (like I just did) the article on Taiwan talks about the island or region, not the actual nation. The article on the nation is under its official name, not Taiwan. What I'm suggesting is basically the same thing.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The China argument is extremely weak and might even damage the case of arguing for a split. The proposal is to follow a China/Taiwan structure as presently exist on Wikipedia but this structure was entirely made up by Wikipedia editors. If the proposal is to stick to and follow existing structures then we can easily find closer examples like the KOSOVO article in it's present or past state that was made up the same way as the China/Taiwan article structures. So this argument is actually for the status quo as it's for favouring pre-existing solutions in Wikipedia so this would be an argument against any possible split. That aside I think using China/Taiwan article structure as an example in an argument for anything relating to the case of Kosovo is known in Wiki terms as a variant of the classic WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument. Hobartimus (talk) 04:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyone can pull a policy out and say it proves their point. I'm saying we should use those as a model, not a justification. The present article is woefullly inadequate from various approaches. The best way to resolve this problem is by having a split.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

flag of kosovo

it not going to be 6 stars on the flag off kosovo, it's only going to be 4 stars! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.72.70 (talk) 10:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Unnecessary POV-tagging

I removed User:Dbachmann's most recent NPVO-tag. We all know that Kosovo is a mine field, so adding NPOV-tags is not very helpful, especially when the tag doesn't come with any elaboration of why it was put there in the first place. --Camptown (talk) 15:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

So you're saying it shouldn't be there? Just read the "split-discussion" and you'll see that the article's neutrality is disputed. Chandlertalk 20:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

indeed. You might state your position in the "options" poll above. Or then of course you might continue your trolling campaign in the present vein until some passing admin takes pity on this page and clamps down on you. dab (𒁳) 21:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, dab's replies are just as fresh as one can possibly expect... --Camptown (talk) 23:25, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Protection

I've protected the article for 3 days in response to several ongoing edit wars. All involved users should mind the article probation, which will lead to sanctions if edit-warring continues, and use the time to discuss and try to resolve the disputes. If there's a desire to lift the protection early, you can make a request at WP:RFPP. MastCell ^Talk 19:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Please also try to do something about the commons images. Protection was circumvented earlier by editing the main locator map on commons to push POV via the unprotected image. Hobartimus (talk) 21:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of the word region

Hi, although I understand why the word region was used ("Region in the Balkans") I think that "a partially recognized country (or nation, either one) should be perfectly acceptable to all, and the most accurate & timely, which is of course what is important in an encyclopedia.

No one can deny its partial recognizition. As of today, 27 countries have recognized it. It may be hurtful to some, but it is fact.

"Region" would be more appropriate for places such as "Herzegovina" or "pre-1867 Italy".

I feel the use of the word region here is inappropriate/unnecessary.

Matt W. Geographer/Historian/Current Events Teacher Canada

Shopteacher (talk) 16:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, I just realized this has already been posted above. Anyway, I reinforce it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shopteacher (talk • contribs) 16:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to support Matt's choice of language. "Partially recognized country" is an accurate description of the situation on the ground in Kosovo today. Darkspots (talk) 20:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Support also. Hobartimus (talk) 21:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Support per Matt W. --Cradel 21:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose This is a rehash of the above discussion. The current terminology is perfectly neutral. Additionally, "partially recognized country" could be added without necessitating any change of the "region" terminology. (In other words a sentence to the effect it is a partially recognized country could be added.) Joseph (talk) 00:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a region! - Kosovo is not a region, it's a state, a country, independent country, partially recognized country, separate from Serbia... recognized by major world powers.Bosniak (talk) 03:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo IS a region... just because there's a country called Kosovo "on top" of it, doesn't make it any less of a region, when talking about the history of Kosovo you can't talk about the history of this republic, because it has no history, the region of Kosovo however, have. Chandlertalk 05:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo is now a partially recognized independent country. That's a fact. Also Kosovo does have history. I know serbs whish it not have. Piasoft (talk) 13:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Serbs do not "wish it not have" [sic] a history, as it has a rich Serb history. In any event, you can add that it is a de facto partially recognized republic without removing the fact that it is also a region. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The name partialy recognized is more nuetral then country, or region, unless we split this into country and area.

Bascily, this is going to be th same war betweeen people. Naming it a region either implies we will make a article just for the country, or that it's part of serbia. Naming it a country is pov in that it masks the fact the majority either do not recognize it, havn't finished the planning to recognize it, or are "Nuetral". Part. recognized, is about as nuetral as we can get besides disputed territory.--Jakezing (talk) 14:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Basically, I see three ways to express the current situation:

• Kosovo is a region.
• Kosovo is the partially recognised Republic of Kosovo.
• Kosovo is the partially recognised Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.

The first option is true and unambiguous. Depending on whom you're asking, either the second or the third option is true, but both options are never true at the same time. This results in an ambiguity. Simply claiming that Kosovo is a region would avoid any ambiguity: all partially recognised republics, as well as all partially recognised autonomous provinces, can be referred to as regions. (Stefan2 (talk) 21:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

Yes, Chandle I see your point about it beign a Region. It is a region. But countries (including partially recognized ones such as Abkhazia and Northern Cyprus) START OUT their article by saying that they are either a republic or de facto country. This should not be any different for Kosovo.

Question where did the Kosovo borders come from, who defined them??

They are well known borders and there was no dispute about it.

Kosovo was an autonom repuplic within Yugoslavia. So a recognised country long time before.

I think that is the difference!.

Republic of Kosovo is the country. When you talk about it in History, like any other country you refer to it as 'that region' Kosovo region.

Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.11.216 (talk) 09:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

To compare, Italy is a region too, but that wikipedia article STARTS out by saying it is a country.

The point is, what an article initially calls something is what is most important. FIRST and FOREMOST, Kosovo is a country (partiaslly recognized or not) and secondmost, a region. Hence the term region shoul dbe considered secondary to the term country or republic.

Shopteacher (talk) 21:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The difference is Abkhazia is not recognized by any country yet. However, Northern Cyprus is a different case from that, but only in that it's recognized by one country. However, Kosovo is unique from both. Taiwan is a more appropriate comparison though Taiwan does not officially declare independence. Unlike Northern Cyprus, Kosovo had a formal existence before independence and there was at least some legal basis for its independence. In effect, the recognition could be seen as a belated acknowledgment of the legal basis of Kosovo independence. This of course also separates it from Taiwan as Taiwan would have no legal basis to claim independence. It does share a legal basis for independence with Abkhazia, but Abkhazia is not recognized.

The uniqueness of Kosovo is why there's such a controversy and is also why this should be dealt with differently by Wikipedia. I'm in favor of having "partially-recognized state" but only if this is article is named "Republic of Kosovo" rather than just Kosovo.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Shopteacher yes, I know, I'm not saying it should say "is a region" I'm just pointing out that it is a region. I'm for the partially recognized beginning :) Chandlertalk 09:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

To further my point even more, this page has the table on the right stating the varipus apsects of the country, (president, PM, population, etc.)

So on that note, whoever decided that "region" is appropriate when these stats are shown, is mistaken. The logic here is faulty.

Matt W. Geography/Historian/Ethnologist/teacher

Shopteacher (talk) 01:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Article must be divided

The article "Kosovo" should be about the region of Kosovo to follow Wikipedia's own standards such as the articles China and Ireland which do not link to the countries commonly attributed to their names (i.e. "China" often refers to the People's Republic of China and Ireland often refers to the Republic of Ireland) but to the regions called by those names. Due to political controversy about the use of those names, Wikipedia's standards to them should apply to the article Kosovo. A separate article called Republic of Kosovo should be created on the fact that the claim to independence is highly controversial.--R-41 (talk) 23:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection tag

The article is obviously fully protected. Can the semi-protection icon be removed? мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ (talk) 00:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternative to Split

Notwithstanding any future decision to have a split I think an appropriate response is to at least do the following:

1. Rename article to Republic of Kosovo calling it a partially-recognized state which declared independence from Serbia.
2. Make current article Kosovo a disambiguation page with the line "Kosovo is a disputed territory under international administration in the Balkans partially-recognized as an independent state under the name Republic of Kosovo or as a province of Serbia." With links to all other articles on places named Kosovo.
3. Have a new article under Kosovo (region) dealing with Kosovo as a region in the model of other articles on similar regions named on this discussion page.

This would be a sort of de-facto split, but ultimately this article would only change names with the rest being edited into articles from existing redirect pages.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This article really needs to be protected for a few weeks to let everyone calm down. You propose something it fails to get consensus days later you propose it again slightly differently? At least wait a few weeks before asking for the same thing that just was turned down. The article is on probation that should count for something. Hobartimus (talk) 03:06, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Splitting Kosovo into 2, 3, 4 or even more articles should only be a measure of last resort and there is no need for that yet. Indeed, what kind of content would be different in the "Kosovo region" and the "Republic of Kosovo" article? History, Geography, Demography, etc. should all be the same anyway - the only difference would be Politics. Why not incorporate this in the current single "Kosovo" article? Khuft (talk) 14:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

the problem is first and foremost with the infobox sporting the flag of the RoK right in the lead. The flag can be under "#recent history" alongside the UNMIK flag, but it cannot grace the lead unless we ostensibly make this article about toe RoK, not "Kosovo" in general. dab (𒁳) 14:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

the history of the Republic of Kosovo will be dedicated to the formative process of the Republic, since 1989 or so. The history of Kosovo (the region) will discuss the timeframe reaching back to the Prehistoric Balkans. Yes there is a difference. The Devil's Advocate's suggestion is perfectly arguable, and is equivalent to option 3. above. Nothing has been "turned down" btw. Only two people, Chandler and myself, have even bothered to express an opinion wrt the possible options. If we count TdA's suggestion as a vote for option 3., we have in fact three votes in support of option 3. and no vote in opposition. Unless other people still want to chime in, I'd say this is a consensus (both Chandler and myself favoured option 2., but stated that option 3. is acceptable). If you object to option 3., pray express your opinion as to how you want to resolve the problem instead. (two infoboxes? no infobox? no flag in the infobox? two flags in the same infobox?) What we clearly cannot have is an article under "Kosovo" that shows a country infobox with only the flag of the Republic of Kosovo. This is a breach of WP:NPOV about as plainly as they get. I have nothing against the RoK, and I wish the UN would see their way to recognizing it already so our problems will go away, but at this point in time this simply isn't the case. dab (𒁳) 14:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This split is completely unnessary. If "History of the Republic of Kosovo" only begins in 1989, then what happens to "history of Kosovo" after 1989? What will "History of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" be after 2008? Contrary to the previous mentioned cases of Ireland and China/Taiwan, we only have one territory here, the status of which is currently disputed, but with only one history, geography, etc.etc. Khuft (talk) 16:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

you are not making sense. Obviously the declaration of the RoK is part of the recent history of Kosovo. I am not suggesting a History of the Republic of Kosovo article, I am talking about the content of the "History" section in a prospective Republic of Kosovo article. --dab (𒁳) 19:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I was just saying that the history of Kosovo and the history of the Republic of Kosovo are the same anyway. So it makes no sense to have part of Kosovo's history under a "Kosovo" article and another part under a "Republic of Kosovo" article. Khuft (talk) 19:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Two infoboxes might be an option. However, we have to consider what additional info such an infobox would contain... is there still a Serb government of Kosovo and Metohija in exile somewhere? As for flags, Kosovo didn't have its own flag (I believe) - contrary to Vojvodina. So does this infobox really add a lot of additional info? Khuft (talk) 16:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

the infobox suggests this article is about the Republic of Kosovo, while it is in fact about all of Kosovo, regardless of the various positions regarding the Republic. If we move the infobox to the relevant section, we'll just end up with a "main article: Republic of Kosovo" in that section, and will eventually export the infobox to a main article. That's just splitting the article in two steps. But I agree that if we move the infobox to the pertinent section, we'll at least have addressed the most urgent issue of NPOV violation. dab (𒁳) 19:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

There aren't two Kosovos. There's just one, but the status is disputed. All other countries have their infobox on the top, however, so it wouldn't be consistent to have Kosovo's somewhere hidden inside the article. Khuft (talk) 19:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

it wouldn't be "inconsistent", it would reflect the fact that the status of Kosovo as a "country" is disputed. --dab (𒁳) 20:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus and ROC both have infobox country at the top of the article. If this helps... In any case, I am against having two articles, there is one Kosovo with a disputed status. --Tone 21:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but both deal with those areas as states and there seems to be no perspective on what this article is actually about. We call it a region but have a country infobox and deal with Kosovo in the article as though it were a country. So the talk of it as a region is completely inconsistent. However, if it's changed to partially-recognized state there's likely to be an uproar.

I'm not calling for a formal split, but really just a rename, creation of a new article, and having Kosovo redirect to the disambiguation page. This article would only be changed to make it consistent with other articles on states, there wouldn't be a need to move information or take anything out of this article. At the very least I think renaming this article to Republic of Kosovo is a good idea.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

So what would the other article contain? I see the danger of having either duplicate information on two articles, or of having two very biased articles (one pro-Kosovar/pro-Albanian, one pro-Serb). Khuft (talk) 21:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be on Kosovo as a region. There's already an article on Kosovo as a province.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

That's very vague and doesn't give a convincing argument for having a separate article instead of including everything on the Kosovo page. Khuft (talk) 22:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I think having two articles (RoK and Kosovo (region)) is really unnecessary because this would be something like this:
The RoK article explains everything about Kosovo (the region ,the country ,the province) while kosovo (region) only tells about the geoghraphy and history of Kosovo (which is already told at Geography of Kosovo and History of Kosovo , as well as in Kosovo).These two articles would have no additional information that isn't already in Kosovo article.Having two articles would only create confusion to other readers. We need a article for the region of kosovo as much as we need an article about the region of any other state in Europe. The region of kosovo , The Republic of Kosovo and the province of Kosovo are the same thing.So instead of having three articles about the same thing and with the same information (except one having less than the other (which only creates confusion)) it would be better to have one article (Kosovo) where we could explain in some section that it is a disputed territory--Cradel 22:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Look at the articles on China or Taiwan to get an idea of what an article on Kosovo would contain. All the same this doesn't preclude the other points about renaming this article and having Kosovo lead to a disambiguation page.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe this could be solved by having three articles?

• Kosovo (a region in the Balkans, cf. Taiwan),
• Republic of Kosovo (a partially unrecognised country, cf. Republic of China),
• Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (a partially unrecognised autonomous province of Serbia, cf. Taiwan Province (People's Republic of China).

Each article could then mention each side's claims. (212.247.11.156 (talk) 15:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC))

So instead of having one article which we can still try to make more or less NPOV, we would have two definetely POV ones... Is that really an improvement? Khuft (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

no, we will have two articles that are completely NPOV. The "Republic of Kosovo" one will state the RoK is only partially recognized, but it will at least be ostensibly about the Republic, without the implication that the Republic is somehow equivalent to Kosovo in general. Now what about this is so difficult to understand? dab (𒁳) 20:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe there's already an article on Kosovo as a province. So really nothing would need to be created except a disambiguation page and page on the region. Also I pointed out China because there is some relevance. The article on China deals with the etymology and naming of China, which would certainly be legitimate in an article on Kosovo as a region. Dealing with it as a region would allow us to have an article on Kosovo that deals with the full extent of its history, geography, demographics, culture, and religion without having to worry about leaning to one side or another because we'd deal with it as a region not a nation or province.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

we already have Kosovo (name). Kosovo could just redirect there. dab (𒁳) 08:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User:Devil's Advocate. The main reason being that having a separate article on Kosovo (region) would enable us to deal with history, geography, etc, without having to commit to defining it as a country or as a part of Serbia. The article of Republic of Kosovo could then deal exclusively with the politics and institutions of that state. RegardsOsli73 (talk) 09:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

So instead of one article where you can say everything there is to say about kosovo , we need two articles :one for the geography etc. and one for the politics. Wouldn't that just confuse the readers. Why cant we just have this article where we could explain that it is a disputed territory ?--Cradel 11:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly - totally agree with you Cradel. Everything that needs to be said about Kosovo can be put in this article; and if you need two infoboxes, than let's discuss about that. Khuft (talk) 20:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's really the point. The point is things like geography, history and such are currently exposed to a bias in this article. The idea that we can have the article on Kosovo be for both presently recognized entities is just nonsense. Fact is, there already is an article on Kosovo as a province and international protectorate so it would just be duplicating already existing articles. The article should be changed to represent Kosovo as a partially-recognized state disputed by other nations, but in keeping with that change it should be renamed to "Republic of Kosovo" to avoid bias. Presently this article directly associates Kosovo with a country when it is recognized as a province by many nations. It's taking a side in an international dispute.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If "geography, history and such are currently exposed to a bias", it is of course our duty to repair this. However, this does not necessarily mean we have to split the article. By having two infoboxes, you can also avoid taking sides. Khuft (talk) 21:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you don't get the problem or my suggestion. I'm not proposing a split. All I'm proposing is having a new article for Kosovo as a region and putting this article under Republic of Kosovo, and having it be about the declared country. Then Kosovo would lead to a disambiguation page. A new article would be created and ultimately incorporate information from those relevant articles like History of Kosovo, Names of Kosovo, Geography of Kosovo, Demographics of Kosovo, Culture of Kosovo, Religion in Kosovo, and so on about the actual region, not a nation of province. The Vilayet of Kosovo roughly corresponds to where Kosovo is today as does Dardania. This makes Kosovo a distinct region similar to Macedonia or China. Also dealing with it as a region allows for an avoidance of any favoritism or awkward wording. An article trying to deal with both will either slant to one side or will be an uncontrolled confusing mess.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Disputed

"Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence is disputed by Serbia, Russia, Spain and 18 other nations." How are nations counted? Shouldn't it say that all countries not yet recognising Kosovo (= much more than just 18 countries) are disputing its independence? (212.247.11.156 (talk) 16:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

Of course not - dispute means oppose. For example Lithuania has not yet recognised Kosovo, but its parliament is expected vote to recognise Kosovo on Monday 10 March. Only those nations that have stated that they are against Kosovo should be recorded as opposing Kosovo. 2007apm (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

A country is not required to say that it doesn't recognise Kosovo for it to not recognise it. It can do nothing if it likes and still not recognise Kosovo. So really all countries that haven't "officially recognised Kosovo" do not recognise recognise Kosovo as an independant state. So only 28 countries currently recognise Kosovo, all the rest do not yet. Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

So basically all countries not currently recognising Kosovo are disputing its independence. (212.247.11.156 (talk) 15:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC))

Disputing, no.. Not recognizing, yes. Chandlertalk 18:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

"Disputing, no.. Not recognizing, yes." What's the difference? Do we distinguish who 'disputes' and merely 'not-recognizes' the republic of Taiwan? The only significant factoid about this whole scenario is this: only 28 of 192 UN members recognize Kosovo as an independent entity, not nearly enough to give Kosovo international recognition beyond anything other than a NATO puppet. Vlad Dracula (talk) 06:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

we do indeed. it is undisputed that the Provisional Goverment has de facto governance over most of Kosovo (excepting Northern Kosovo) Stating this fact is very different from accepting that this governance is legal. Taiwan is very different: That government claims de jure sovereignty over all of China, while it is completely undisputed that the People's Republic of China has de facto government over that territory. Yes, this boils down to a dispute of NATO vs. Russia+China. Both sides are notable forces to be reckoned with in world politics, so we certainly cannot brush off either view as irrelevant. dab (𒁳) 08:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that the "Provisional Goverment has de facto governance over most of Kosovo (excepting Northern Kosovo)". The provisional government may claim de jure governance, but de facto governance is exercised by NATO and EU. Let's not pretend that Kosovo isn't occupied territory. Imagine the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation sending a mission to the Basque country, against the will of Spain and the UN Security Council, that's what you have in Kosovo right now.

The question whether you distinguish between states "disputing" Kosovos so-called "independence" and those merely "not recognizing" it, is moot. It depends on how you define consent. For state recognition to happen, usually explicit consent (action by the state authorities) is required. There's no point in distinguishing between "explicit" and "tacit opposition" to Kosovos independence, unless you are pushing a POV, that "tacit opposition" is in fact "tacit consent".

I also agree that "secession" or "puppet state" would be a more appropriate technical term for the situation. Unfortunately, everybody keeps calling it "independence", which is clearly an ambiguous political term. (Independence from who? Certainly not from NATO occupation. Reminds you of the "Independent" State of Croatia in WW2.) --El Cazangero (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Nato occupied Kosovo !? How silly this sounds. Never heard this from Kosovo people and governement. The Only "puppet state" is the governement of Serbia, Oh yes, there is no government any more in serbia, Adios Koshtunica!!! Piasoft (talk) 13:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Also good point Reminds you of the "Independent" State of Croatia in WW2.) I can see where Croatia is now in 21'st century. Piasoft (talk) 13:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

split poll

I draw everyone's attention to the split strawpoll above. We have only three votes so far. I ask everybody to express their opinion there instead (or at least before) indulging in revert-warring. If you don't have an opinion on that question, it hardly makes sense for you to edit-war about it. dab (𒁳) 09:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Three votes so far.... You ask everybody not to "indulge in revert-warring", but you can't keep your hands off the article yourself, well, well... --Camptown (talk) 11:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

These five options are not satisfactory. I miss the following options:

- Keep everyting in this article, with one infobox on the Republic of Kosovo - this is the situation curently of the article on Somaliland - a region of Somalia that declared independence a few years ago. (This would correspond to keeping the article as it is, basically).

- Keep eveything in this article and have two infoboxes on the top. This is the Abkhazia option - Abkhazia also declared independence (but nobody recognised it) and we manage to have everything (the Abkhazian infobox, the Georgian infobox, plus the whole info on the dispute) in the single Abkhazia page - no need for split pages on "independent Abkhazia" and "Georgian Abkhazia".

My vote definitely goes to these options. Khuft (talk) 21:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

split reverted

Reverted split. There is absolutely no consensus about a split. This article has been protected for some days, and the first thing dab does when the protection is lifed is to split the article again. dab only proves that he is not able to fulfil the responsibilities inherent in the adminship, and should be stripped from his admin credentials. --Camptown (talk) 09:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

the amount of trolling you've been up to on this page is overwhelming. How aren't you blocked yet? ThuranX (talk) 11:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

POV-pushing

This is what keeps Dbachmann (talk · contribs) busy. POV-pushing and edit wars, and it aint over before dab gets the last word. I think dab is a disgrace for all admins who are doing a great job, but also problem, a serious threat to this project. --Camptown (talk) 14:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Its more neutral than the picture before it. Chandlertalk 21:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:DFTT. Probation enforcement anyone? dab (𒁳) 21:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Basis of Split: Wikipedia's articles on other disputed regions

I fully understand that most of Kosovo is de facto outside the jurisdiction of Serbia, I also understand that its independence is disputed by Serbia, Russia, Spain, and deep resentment has been cast in the Peoples' Republic of China which claim that Kosovo did not have the legal right to separate under Serbia's constitution I believe. As neither an Albanian or a Serb, (I am a Canadian - 75% British background, 25% Italian) I can say from a neutral perspective based on the crises over recognition of the Republic of China, the Palestinian National Authority as composing a Palestinian state, historical disputes between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom over the sovereignty of North Ireland, among others all have warranted caution on Wikipedia not to inflame disputes, Wikipedia's actions regarding the status of Kosovo has been a bizarre exception. The article must be split, with one article for the Republic of Kosovo which will speak of the politics of the republic; the Autonomous Province of Kosovo existing since 1990 - even though almost non-existant I presume that most Serbs of Kosovo endorse this as the legitimate authority; and finally an article for Kosovo as a region - representing the history, culture, and geography without political contexts. Wikipedia must not base its standards on pressure posed on it from nationalist rhetoric by either side but instead base it on how Wikipedia has responded to other disputed status regions, as mentioned above, which validly point to the necessity of this article needing to be split up.--R-41 (talk) 20:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that this article needs to be split. See my argument above re Somaliland and Abkhazia. Khuft (talk) 21:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The Abkhazia article shows representation for both the Georgian claim to the region and the claims by the republic's government. If that were to be done on this page, I would gladly accept it as a solution, but the current edit wars make that seem impossible. The Somaliland article in my view should be called the "Republic of Somaliland" as it is still in international legal terms part of Somalia, if there is not open dispute over the issue of Somaliland independence it is most likely due to the political dissarray in Somalia, the country has been unable to form any viable opposition to the secessionist government of Somaliland. In the past, when Somalia was politically secure, it fought civil war with Somaliland separatists, so it is contentious and I think that Wikipedia should split that article as well into Somaliland as a region and an article for the Republic of Somaliland, to respect the current legal Somali claims to the region. But back to the point on Kosovo, the articles on Tibet and Wikipedia's neutral article on China. It would be easy to say that yes, the Peoples Republic of China holds the best claim to the title "China" because it controls mainland China, but watch out for giving simple titles to disputed entities, if the article on the PRC were to be changed to just "China" POV complaints would explode on that article, which is just what is happening for the article "Kosovo".--R-41 (talk) 21:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Glad you agree the Abkhazia article might provide a solution we could also use here. Khuft (talk) 21:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but its going to be really hard to post the Autonomous Province of Kosovo material on this site, nationalist Albanians won't have any of it, just as nationalist Serbs will not have anything for the article Kosovo representing the Republic of Kosovo. The most realistic way to keep the two sides from fighting is representing both both claims on independent articles, while an article on "Kosovo" should be like that of the articles on "China", "Tibet" and "Ireland" which Wikipedia has had the good judgement to talk about the history, culture, and geography without averting to divisive and controversial political status, which is represented elsewhere for the claimant parties.--R-41 (talk) 21:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

you've got it right. This is a no-brainer to anyone serious about NPOV. By not implementing a neutral solution right away, we are giving nationalist pov pushers more weight than they should ever have on Wikipedia. dab (𒁳) 21:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Hooray: so our solution is to have two pages where each party can present its own POV... How the hell is that supposed to be neutral???? (BTW R-41: the case of Ireland is obviously different, as the island of Ireland contains two states: Eire and Northern Ireland - so in a sense it's like the article on Hispaniola, which contains Haiti and the Dominican Republic)Khuft (talk) 22:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree on Ireland being a poor example. Taiwan and Western Sahara, however, are great examples. Taiwan has all the institutions of a national government and all trappings of sovereignty, unlike Kosovo, and has a clear territory under its control. Yet, the article on Taiwan doesn't go to a page about Taiwan the independent state, but Taiwan the island.

Western Sahara is recognized by more nations than Kosovo, though like Kosovo doesn't control all the territory it claims, but unlike Kosovo is fully sovereign in the territory it holds. Yet Western Sahara's article isn't about the nation and government of Western Sahara. Well rightly so as Morrocco controls most of Western Sahara and is recognized as having sovereignty over the rest. This position is officially supported by numerous nations. Yet it does not lead to an article on the Western Saharan provinces. No, the article on Western Sahara deals with it as a region disputed between two parties, with neither claim recognized by the UN.

While I'm not interested in dealing with Abkhazia that article does have a clear slant towards the Georgian position and it's fairly easy to make that slant when both are dealt with in the same article. Ultimately one position is going to be favored over another or the article will end up just being a big sloppy block of text.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, Western Sahara really provides one of the best examples of what I mean. Abkhazia and Somaliland are not recognized, but Western Sahara and Kosovo are recognized as independent by many nations. They're both also recognized as provinces by many nations. However, the article on Western Sahara does not lead to either the article on it as a province or as a nation. It leads to an article on Western Sahara the region. One might argue the disputed control is a reason for doing this, but really there is a dispute over who controls Kosovo. Presently the Serbs in Kosovo are mostly reporting to the UN, not the Kosovo government and are refusing to be subject to rule from Pristina. We already have an article on the UN-ruled Kosovo and that is not the same as the declare nation. Presently Kosovo's government does not have authority over Northern Kosovo. So really there's already a dispute over whether all of Kosovo is controlled by the declared nation of Kosovo.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I draw your attention to Palestine: "State of Palestine" doesn't redirect to Palestine, it redirects to Proposals for a Palestinian state. "Palestine" doesn't sport any flags. Proposals for a Palestinian state has both the Palestinian and the Israeli flag. Applying this to the case at hand, not only wouldn't Republic of Kosovo redirect here, it wouldn't even be a separate "country" article, it would just redirect to the declaration of independence one. I wouldn't go quite as far as that, since after all two dozen states do recognize the RoK. A China style solution will suffice. But I repeat that there is no way this article will not be split and still keep the RoK flag in the lead. dab (𒁳) 21:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

"There is no way this article will not be split"...Is this suddenly your wikipedia? I certainly am not the only one not seeing any need for a split, and hope there won't be any unilateral moves in that direction before this has been thoroughly discussed.Khuft (talk) 22:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

EVERYONE CALM DOWN, DON'T MAKE THIS PERSONAL! Let's get back to the basics, support for split = China, Ireland, Tibet articles all are for the region. Against = Somaliland article and the Abkhazia article (though it is different in that it represents the claims for both the secessionists and the government of Georgia).--R-41 (talk) 22:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

As for the issue of Western Sahara it is a de jure state, recognized, but with no sovereignty, Somalia has no government but it still is recognized because the UN is unwilling to recognize the tribal factions. Until the legal powers that be at the UN either decide to recognize the Republic of Kosovo, or not, or simply leave it up in the air, the Republic of Kosovo should be an independent article in my mind not part of a "Kosovo" article. I say this because I suspect that Albanian and Serb nationalists on Wikipedia will fight and fight and fight if the page recognizes both the autonomous province and the republic will be repeatedly vandalized by Serb and Albanian nationalists.--R-41 (talk) 22:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

They won't because Wikipedia is luckily free of pesky world politics. The creation of two articles that are actually the same just differing on the way they are presented to readers (so the please them) is futile and counterproductive. Permanent semi-protection is a much, much easier solution. Húsönd 02:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

As explained above, there is no way there can be a "Republic of Kosovo" infobox on the article titled Kosovo as long as the RoK's status is disputed. That's a simple corollary of WP:NPOV. See Talk:Kosovo#Options, where I note you have not even bothered to state a preference. Stop edit-warring and either try to be constructive or just go away. There are several options, either move the article to Republic of Kosovo and keep the infobox, or keep it at Kosovo and remove it, etc. The present version is not defensible, and semi-protection will not affect this situation. dab (𒁳) 13:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

External Link

Recommnend an external link be added to article from Canada's reputable Maclean's magazine, interviewing Serbia's new ambassador to Canada Dusan Batakovic, a very good matter of fact summary provided on Kosovo.

Isabel Vincent. Interview with Dusan Batakovic. MACLEANS.CA. 27 February, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.76.93 (talk) 03:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Map

File:Europe location Kosovo.png

Please add this photo, with Serbia shaded, which is the compromised version. The current version suggests that Kosovo is a widely recognized country (the same map is used for all internationally recognized countries) and completely ignores the vast majority of the countries of the world that still consider Kosovo a part of Serbia. If Serbia is shaded, it suggests that there is a dispute and it is absolutely neutral. Thank you, --GOD OF JUSTICE 04:21, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Interview with Hashim Thaci (TV8)

In an interview of March 11, 2008, by the Swedish reporter Lars Adaktusson, Kosovo's prime minister Hashim Thaci is optimistic about Kosovo's future. He says that Kosovo aims to become member of the NATO and the EU, and that Kosovo is a nation for all its citizens, also the Serbian minority. Hashim Thaci reveals that there are informal talks going on between his government and Russia; and he points out that the official Russian reaction differs from its pragmatic view shown during the informal talk. Hashim Thaci even says that Spain has indicated an intention to establish diplomatic relations with Kosovo now when a majority of EU member states have done so. Hashim Thaci says that he is not worried that the Seriban part in the north will break away, and that he would show Carl Bildt (Sweden's foreign minister) also the northern part of Mitovica next time he comes to Kosovo. On March 8, Carl Bildt became the first foreign minister to visit Kosovo since its unilateral declaration of indepence. See the program here: Interview with Hashim Thaci - 2008-03-11 (Video) (Interview in English). --Camptown (talk) 10:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Country Information Box

Why are there 2 country information boxes, both with identical information? MacTire (talk) 11:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I wonder how come. Anyway I've just removed the copy now. No reason whatsoever for its presence. Húsönd 02:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

that's clearly a bad faith edit. The two infoboxes are the provisional outcome of a huge discussion above, in which you were involved. Remove both or none, this isn't the Republic of Kosovo article. If you remove the infobox, you are revert-warring, and you should at least have the decency to restore the NPOV tag at the same time, since you know your edit is controversial. --dab (𒁳) 13:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

1989 is not starting point in Kosovo crisis

"In 1989, Milošević, employing a mix of intimidation and political maneuvering, drastically reduced Kosovo's special autonomous status within Serbia. Soon thereafter Kosovo Albanians organized a non-violent separatist movement, employing widespread civil disobedience, with the ultimate goal of achieving the independence ..."

This is not true... Kosovo Albanians stared their project Great Albania much earlier ... read here http://www.globalpolitician.com/21149-albania ... also there you'll find more references. it is middle age concept that waited till XXI century to become true... that sentence NEED to be corrected, Wikipedia becoming propaganda media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.241.91.24 (talk) 13:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And stating that this is all due to Greater Albania aspirations makes that part of the article NPOV? Your sources are all but neutral.Amenifus (talk) 10:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

to User:Amenifus

Please Amenifus, find sentence or part of the sentence where i stated "... that this is all due to Greater Albania aspirations ... " You are probably Albanian with very bad concesnes - small internet solder for Great Albania project. Please, provide facts and give sources for your statement that my "sources are all but neutral" ... Looking forward to read something smart and to learn something new from you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.248.164 (talk) 11:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Alright.I know somewhere along the run I'll regret answering you but I'll try anyway.Yes, you are correct on one thing, I am Albanian(which isn't a secret anyway), but you'll find a great deal of non-albanian users here that will attest to the "partialness" of your comment(and sources).Your comment:"Kosovo Albanians stared their project Great Albania much earlier" and "it is middle age concept that waited till XXI century to become true" renders my first comment correct.1989 WAS the starting point of the Kosovo crisis, even if reasons and factors may go a millenium back.Historically, there wasn't any unified Albanian state in the middle ages, and there was hardly an albanian identity to begin with.I don't see how the Albanian princes and nobility could've been plotting a Gr Albania.As for :" You are probably Albanian with very bad concesnes - small internet solder for Great Albania project", I'm assuming you meant "consciousness" or "conscience".Either way, that description fits you more than me(replacing the word Albania of course).During my short time here I've never promoted or supported ANY Greater Albania aspects whatsoever, so spare me the personal attacks.Overall, seems you were just looking to blow off some steam, and you should probably be redirected to an appropriate forum.You'll find plenty of small internet soldiers there.I hope this was smart and new.Amenifus (talk) 10:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

To User: Amenifus

Nice political talk. quite emotional. still you didn't provide any evidence that deny sources that I referred. 1989 was nothing more important then 2004, 1999, 1998, or 1981, 1941, 1912 ... and so on. Many smaller or bigger crises induced by mentioned project happened on Kosovo during those years. It is very arbitrary and in my opinion kind of propaganda attitude statement that exactly 1989 was starting point. If you have problem to go far in the past, then maybe 1981 is more appropriate year. But I guess that year is problem for Albanians because it is hard to explain violence against serbs in the name of Great Albania that happened 1981. But if 1989 was starting point that is much easier for Albanian propaganda machine; because that year can be easily connected with Milosevic (well recognized bad guy) and easily claim that all problems started 1989 with him. That was my point, that's why I provided references about Great Albania project. Great Albania project is main reason for Kosovo crisis - year however not very important. That’s why demographics structure of Kosovo was significantly changed in last 100, especially 30 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo - though this article is not accurate) , that’s why Albanians cannot stand to live next to serbs, that’s why so many churches and Christians grave yards were burned(http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2004/April_28/1.html just list from 2004). Simply, Great Albania should be a country for Albanians, i.e. Muslim Albanians and there is no space for Christians especially any Serbs. 1989 was bad year for all, mostly for Serbs because Milosevic got in power, but not starting point in Kosovo crisis. So please provide references and facts, not political and emotional phrases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.69.114 (talk) 05:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

...and this is where I start regretting.Most of your points have been discussed time and again in wikipedia, so I don't even need to elaborate on them.I will only answer to one thing:"Simply, Great Albania should be a country for Albanians, i.e. Muslim Albanians and there is no space for Christians especially any Serbs.".What you seem to ignore is that in the entire albanian population a percentage of 65-70% are muslim, the rest are mainly orthodox and catholic.During the Kosovo crisis(you pick the starting point) Albanians had no pan-Islamic notions and movements.Again, this is not a Kosovo forum and this is clearly stated at the head of this discussion page.If you plan to improve the article in any way, be my guest, but you must provide some actually neutral sources, not forum links carrying the impersonation of extremism.If you simply wish to continue with more Greater Albania warmongering again I would advise you to join a specific forum.People here in wikipedia are going through a hard time maintaining as much article neutrality as possible, and continuing this discussion I feel that I'm undermining their efforts.In other words, I'm stopping this futile conversation here.Amenifus (talk) 10:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

To User: Amenifus:

This is not forum; you are the one that use this space as a forum. You STILL haven't provided ANY reference -just judgments without citations. I'm amazed by the speed of your response - I guess there is more then one person behind this user name. Probably the most points have been discussed, but still that means nothing. You and people like you are (i.e. internet solders for Great Albania project) believe that 100 times repeated untruth becoming true or fact! That's why you "don't even need to elaborate on them"... Instead to provide link to valid source (the simplest and easiest would be f.ex. www.wikipedia.org ) you are keep repeating that my sources are not neutral. Here is one more untruth in your last response. " in the entire albanian population a percentage of 65-70% are Muslim, the rest are mainly orthodox and catholic" read here about real numbers. again reference is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo in the section Religion. I am also stopping here with defending my statement form you because you are the one that basically spreading untruth and use this page as forum in propaganda purposes.

One more time 1989 was not more important then any other year of the Kosovo crisis and Kosovo crisis is strongly induced by Great Albania project (see references that I inserted in previous text). I hope the page will be revised and I believe improved. Thank you :o) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.241.91.24 (talk) 13:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Maddog

First of all i wonna say that main mistake of this article is thatis its all wrong. In the begining of it`s said that the Kosovo was in Ottoman empire since 1455. until 1912. But you didn`t said that Kosovo was the part of Serbia, and that Serbia too was in part of Ottoman empire. Thats mean that Kosovo was, is , and will be the part of Serbia untill the end of time. Everything else is just imagination of world leaders who only looks for his own benefits. Kosovo have a lot of black gold, and thats the main reason why America involved in this situation. You just have the wrong facts, and i don`t blame you. I blame yours guverment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.172.3 (talk) 01:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Your reasons and logic defy NPOV. If i remember, several states, modern and past were like that. Oh, guess what; the ENGLISH wikipedia isn't exactly american, Considering the united states, NOT america(Note the difference between america and the US) isn't the only english speaking country in this world. #rd; your "America is only supporting kosovo because it has oil" idea is VERY, VERY, POV and isn't allowed here. Now, when you have a npov thing to say that wil IMPROVE the article and still keep it as close to npov as possible, i won't be critical of you, ok? (Sorry abnout being so harsh, but i'v grown tired of you people and your pov idea's on how kosovo will or will not be a state.)--Jakezing (talk) 03:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed i think were all getting sick and tired of pro-Serbian and pro-Albanian propaganda ruining the article and having it protected from editing every couple of days it is disrupting the Article and is quite frankly getting annoying. Can we all just state what the facts are Keep a neutral point of view and keep our opinions to were they belong. To ourselves or on our userpages not in an article and not in a discussion about an article that is meant to reflect a neutral point of view and is meant to be a debate on how to improve an article. Gr8opinionater (talk)

Excuse me did you just say "neutral point of view"? I believe this isn't as simple as it sounds and verbally attacking someone who is expressing his opinion is also against the rules. By all means look at a history book and you'll read that serbia streched over Kosovo for centuries. But seeing that this is not the main problem let me tell you that being neutral means having influence by no-one and what I've seen these last days is that this is almost impossible. I've seen Albanian nationalists reflect their ideas on supposedly "neutral" articles, which are offending Serbian readers. I recommend that the article is split before we have to deal with more harsh nationalism in here. Lastly, I thought that this encyclopedia worked with historical facts, culture evidence etc. What I've seen is that the Albanians in their lust for power (Greater Albania) are causing problems to Wikipedia which is NOT a battlefield in which they can claim territories. The least we can do is split the article so that there is some kind of balance. And I suggest that it happens soon because nationalism is bad in this article and it's getting worse each day, if you ask me. 85.72.138.131 (talk) 17:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

per capita income

I request to include the 2004 estimates of Kosovo's Dometic Product and Per Capita income in the country information box. It is reported below in the same article and there is no reason not to inlude the information in the coutnry information box. Regards --Ivazir (talk) 11:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo (geopolitical region) article

The article Kosovo (geopolitical region) is a superior article to this one which is neutral on the issue of Kosovo independence and speaks of the cultures of both Albanians and Serbs. "Kosovo" should either become a disambiguation page or link to Kosovo (geopolitical region).--R-41 (talk) 19:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, well seems like there's already an article for Kosovo the region. I guess my proposal changes. This article should be renamed to "Republic of Kosovo" and Kosovo made into a disambiguation page leading to Kosovo (geopolitical region), Republic of Kosovo, Kosovo (UNMIK), and Autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

We've talked about this, and republic of kosovo as a article name isn't npov--Jakezing (talk) 00:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Jakezing, we are trying to find a solution which is acceptable to both sides, Albanian and Serb. As your user page indicates that you support Kosovo independence, you have a vested interest in promoting Kosovo independence, which is why your judgements must be taken cautiously on Wikipedia. I am a Canadian who has no Balkan heritage, though I am interested in Balkan history, I would like to see this dispute resolved in a manner than does not offend either side. I recognize that opposed to you are many Serbs who claim that Kosovo is still a province within Serbia and do not accept the Kosovo government's claim and have noted that the Serbian constitution does not allow autonomous provinces to separate. Serbs do not recognize Kosovo as an independent state, as neither do Russia, Spain and other countries and the UN is in deadlock over the issue. At present, "Kosovo" solely refering to the republic is controversial. The article on China does not give credit to the People's Republic of China's huge landholding of mainland China, the article takes a neutral stance, taking into account the Republic of China's (based in Taiwan) claim to the mainland. The China article is the kind of article I and many others would like to see for Kosovo. The Kosovo (geopolitical region article respects the claims of both sides, and presents a neutral standpoint recognizing that the region is in dispute. No solution will come from one side trying to beat the other, only a compromise, which the article Kosovo (geopolitical region) represents.--R-41 (talk) 02:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is very NPOV. NPOV is neutral point of view not no point of view. Few people and no nation oppose identifying the Federal Republic of Germany with Germany. So from a neutral point of view an article on the Federal Republic of Germany can be rightly put under Germany. This is not the case with Kosovo. A lot of people and countries do not identify the Republic of Kosovo with Kosovo. However, all would identify Republic of Kosovo as the declared state in Kosovo. So this would be the neutral point of view to have an article with that title on that subject.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

How the hell does my support of kosovo cloud my judgement. Furthermore, i was againsta article named republic of kosovo, how is that showing my support? Well? WELL! I'm german and irish, with no balkan blood in me at all, besides the slavic blood in the poles. Oh, taiwan is in a different postion then kosovo...--Jakezing (talk) 13:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it seemed natural to assume that someone endorsing Kosovo independence could be Albanian. Still someone endorsing independence of Kosovo affects their judgement. Further, your user page shows that you have strong opinions on issues in the former Yugoslavia. For whatever reason you have these, they affect your judgement because it gives you an agenda to support one side over another. Neutrality must be pursued on Wikipedia to avoid inflaming one side or the other. Take a look at Kosovo (geopolitical region), it is a better article, there are no outstanding disputes there as of yet unlike this page.--R-41 (talk) 16:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I endorse Kosovo's independence and I can't really see why should that interfere with my evaluation of NPOV on this article. By the way, I don't think we reached an agreement for the existence of this POV fork Kosovo (geopolitical region). Húsönd 18:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Personal endorsement of Kosovo independence by users is only a problem if they intend to impose that view on others. If you respect the right of the opposing view to be heard then there is no problem. The opposing view is that of Serbia, Russia, Spain, the Peoples Republic of China and others that claim that Kosovo cannot legally separate from Serbia because it was not constitutionally permitted to. If you respect the alternative view then there is no problem. I do not back one side over the other, both have their arguments, but as of yet, the UN has not determined whether Kosovo constitutes an independent, sovereign state. Until then, in my view, it would be against Wikipedia's tradition of neutrality to have a page which displays Kosovo as an accepted country.--R-41 (talk) 23:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to remind once again that Wikipedia is not a branch of the UN and we do not abide by its decisions, nor by the decisions of any country. The only elements for changing, adding or removing content on Wikipedia are sources and consensus. Húsönd 01:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not just a matter of any sources or uninformed consensus, it is a matter of GOOD sources and INFORMED consensus. The UN bases its decisions on world consensus, yes Kosovo is a functioning state, but it is not a recognized state. I recognize that Kosovo's government is in control of its territory and has become effectively independent of Serbia. But if Wikipedia declares its recognition of Kosovo and does not follow traditional UN standings on international boundaries, Wikipedia would be bound by its own precadent to display all de facto states as being legitimate (and there are many), Wikipedia have to change all its maps of the world, recognize micronations, show every single disputed border, perhaps even create multiple alternative maps of the world to represent every single land claim by one state over another. That would be a very chaotic situation, Wikipedia can't just recognizing the legitimacy of Kosovo's de facto independence without having to recognize the de facto independence of the many other de facto states, if you believe that Wikipedia should recognize every de facto state, things would become very complicated as I mentioned earlier. That is why Wikipedia follows the traditional precadent of recognizing the UN's positions on states. I would like to add that I have nothing against a "Republic of Kosovo" article, which would recognize the de facto state as existing. But the word "Kosovo" directly linking to the declared state, is not universally popular, as we can all see, which justifies my proposal that the word "Kosovo" link to Kosovo (geopolitical region) which will neutral on both sides claims.--R-41 (talk) 03:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encylopedia, you're referring to it as if it possessed actual sovereign ability to recognize a country. Wikipedia is not a political entity. Kosovo lacks wide recognition but you can't say "it is not a recognized state". And, it's a de facto independent country. The Wikipedian community understood that this combination were grounds for exposing the article about Kosovo as mainly an independent state that does not currently possess recognition by most countries. You will not find any other similar situation. Again, we're not bound to the UN, and the UN sources have no supremacy over other equally valid sources. And last but not least, I don't really think I can agree with your statement "UN bases its decisions on world consensus". Where did you get that from?! Húsönd 03:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Then I suggest that you follow your decision and belief by changing every single map on Wikipedia to recognize every single de facto state and every single disputed border. I know that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and I know that encyclopedia's usually base their information on widely accepted sources, the UN is an accepted source by many countries to define what the borders and countries of the world are. The Kosovo government, like the Somaliland government and others is in the situation that the UN has not been able to determine whether these two entities should be legally recognized as states. "Kosovo" for Serbs refers to the province which they claim still is legally operable, while Albanians in Kosovo claim that "Kosovo" is the short-form name of the state which they endorsed creating. Wikipedia should consider the UN's decisions as a good source because most of the world considers the UN's decisions to be a good source, that is why maps of the world don't show thousands of micronations. Like I said Wikipedia must follow its precadents, if links "Kosovo" to an article about the republic and the article "Kosovo" does not recognize Serbian claims to it, then we must change other pages to be fair and neutral, for instance the Somalia article must have its maps changed to show that the Republic of Somaliland has separated from it.--R-41 (talk) 03:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's constructive to keep repeating myself. Húsönd 10:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Husond, you you understand my points or not? I understand yours, you say that Wikipedia does not need to follow UN rulings. What I say is if it doesn't and effectively says "Kosovo is a country" then many many other de facto states will need to have the same treatment on Wikipedia. On Wikipedia we can't just pick and choose which countries we recognize and which ones we don't, there is a precadent set by saying "Kosovo is a country" when the UN has not endorsed it. I understand your viewpoint, if you don't understand mine, and just keep insulting it as being "pro-UN" then I cannot and will not continue this debate with you.--R-41 (talk) 13:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not insulting your point of view. I understand it but I keep telling that your point of view lacks validity on Wikipedia. Which other de facto independent countries do you think that Wikipedia should be treating as independent in order to conform with our treatment of Kosovo? Húsönd 14:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

We would have to treat the Republic of Abkhazia, the Republic of Somaliland, the Republic of South Ossetia and others all the same. If the infobox is removed for the country and a region infobox is put in on this page, there will be less problems, that's what the South Ossetia article does.--R-41 (talk) 15:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Those regions lack any recognition. They cannot be compared with Kosovo, whose independence is recognized by 28 countries representing most of the world's democracies. Húsönd 15:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This is the same argument that shows up every so often with taiwan. We should follow taiwans precedence, considering it is one of the best to look at when the situation is that of a country like kosovo.--Jakezing (talk) 21:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Even Taiwan is far from being a similar situation. Let's not forget that the Republic of China is a country that claims the entire China but controls only Taiwan (whereas the People's Republic of China is a country that claims the entire China but has no control over Taiwan). It would be like the Republic of Kosovo claiming the entire Serbia far beyond Kosovo. No, not really that similar. Húsönd 00:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

28 countries endorsing Kosovo's independence is far from universal, should we ignore that over 100 countries have not endorsed Kosovo's independence, including major world powers like Russia, the Peoples Republic of China, and Spain.--R-41 (talk) 01:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not up to us to ignore or designore. The community understands that Kosovo is de facto independent AND de jure recognized as such by most of the worlds powers/democracies. And honestly, I personally think that's the way it should be. Serbia's fight for a lost cause can go on in the international political sphere, but has no place in an encyclopedia that treats things as they are, not as some wish they would be. Húsönd 12:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been amused to read the opinions of many people (both pro- and anti- Kosovo independence) try to invent their own standards for determining whether an entity is independent or not. These putative standards have included: whether or not an entity is a member of the United Nations (or any other international organization), the relative geopolitical importance of countries that recognize the independence of an entity, whether or not the UN Security Council has taken a position on an issue, the absolute number of countries that have recognized, etc. The reality is that all of these factors interact and play some role in determining independence, but none of them singly constitutes the definitive guide to whether an entity is independent. The end result: when assessing statehood, we have to make a subjective, "you know it when you see it" judgment call on independence. In Kosovo's case, I think it's pretty clear that this week Kosovo turned an important corner in achieving legitimacy for its young state. Today's recognitions by Serbia's neighbors (Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria) were very important, especially considering the weight international law gives to the opinions of neighboring countries. The fact that Europe, the region most affected by Kosovo, has overwhelming, if not unanimously, endorsed independence is also important. Yesterday's recognitions by Canada/Japan, two important non-European countries, add further credence to the "you know it when you see it" standard of legitimacy. We should discount the fact that most countries of the world have not taken an affirmative step to recognize independence, especially since under international law there is no affirmative obligation to recognize any country. To argue otherwise, it is to make the argument that there is some magic number of recognitions that constitutes the defining criteria of statehood -- if so, then what is it? 50% of countries? 2/3? I further reject the notion that there is a "UN position" on independence. The UN's highest organ, the UN Security Council, is obviously divided on the question (and therefore Kosovo will not achieve membership in that organization any time soon); the UN General Assembly has never spoken on it; the UN Secretary-General and Secretariat have studiously avoided taking any position on status or the legality of Kosovo's declaration of independence. While UN membership or UN Security Council support for Kosovo's independence would be significant in determining its statehood, it is by no means the definitive or the only standard. Considering all these factors, you can see that I feel comfortable making the subjective judgement that Kosovo's quest for independence has achieved sufficient legitimacy that the "Republic of Kosovo" should be in the infobox and that Kosovo should be referred to as a state. Of course, this must be accompanied by a robust explanation that Serbia, supported by Russia and others, challenge Kosovo's independence as illegitimate. As more countries recognize Kosovo's independence in the coming months and Kosovo joins various international organizations (such as the IMF, which has rules that will probably allow membership), then the case for making the judgment call that I propose will become strongly. Envoy202 (talk) 15:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not against Kosovo independence or for it, but I claim that Wikipedia has to have universal standards on articles like "Kosovo" refering to the Republic of Kosovo. If the Kosovo page should be left like this then the Peoples Republic of China should be renamed "China" because it rules almost all of the Chinese mainland. Be aware that Kosovo independence is highly controversial, Serb Wikipedians do not relate Kosovo to being the Republic of Kosovo, this makes the title "Kosovo" non-universal and having POV towards the Albanian side. Opponents have explained that in legal terms, Kosovo as a province did not have the constitutional right to separate from Serbia unlike when constituent republics separated from the former Yugoslavia.--65.95.139.89 (talk) 17:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely right, especially on the part of Albanian influences in the article. Plus, I want to add that Kosovo does not exist as a national entity. This is a fact, for if you check the demographics of the area then you'll find out that the area has Albanian and Serb population. Oh, by the way, is it actually democratic for Wikipedia to recognize a state that declared its independence without the agreement of the Serbian part of the parliament? I can't tell for sure but this situation is a tricky one and as far as I can tell, this article leans towards the Albanian POV.85.72.138.131 (talk) 17:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I should have logged in when I posted the section above anon user 85.72.138.131. I want to be clear that I believe it is pro-Albanian POV not because I have anything against Albanians, but because they naturally will support Kosovo's independence in light of the atrocities they suffered under the regime of Milosevic and from Serb ultranationalist paramilitaries during the Kosovo War. I know that Wikipedia democratically decides its decisions, but its current decisions have not solved the continous problem of the page being in lock-down due to vandalism. My proposal of moving the page "Kosovo" become that of Kosovo (geopolitical region), is a way to avoid making a controversial political statement on Kosovo sovereignty. This is an encyclopedia that is supposed to have grounded facts to support its articles, not to be based solely on personal beliefs, like debating whether Kosovo "should" be independent - that is not the issue here. The issue here on Wikipedia is whether the Republic of Kosovo should be allowed to be recognized by the title "Kosovo" alone when Serbia claims that through its constitution it also has the right to the title "Kosovo" as recognizing the autonomous province.

What are the facts?

1) A number of countries have recognized the territory of "Kosovo" to be under the sovereign rule of the Republic of Kosovo.

2) A number of countries have opposed Kosovo's declaration of independence, including Russia, Spain, and the Peoples Republic of China.

3) The UN and many other countries have not yet made a decision on whether Kosovo should be recognized as being sovereign from Serbia.

These three facts should be taken into consideration before saying "Kosovo" = Republic of Kosovo. For me the answer to the problem for the time-being is "Kosovo" = "Kosovo (geopolitical region)" which is represented by: 1) "Republic of Kosovo" 2) "Autonomous Province of Kosovo"--R-41 (talk) 22:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

R-41: I strongly agree with you that one's personal opinions about Kosovo's independence (either its legal or moral legitimacy) are not relevant here. Like you, I'm trying to enter a Zen-like state of ethnic neutrality!! My question, though, is this: what exactly is the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo" supposed to be? Since 1999, Kosovo has not been under a Serbian legal framework -- UNSCR 1244, combined with the subsequent decisions of UNMIK, makes it pretty clear that Serbia does not govern Kosovo and the Constitution of Serbia has not been relevant in Kosovo since then. As a practical matter, there is no existing government that calls itself the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo. Furthermore, Serbia's control over Kosovo is both practically and legally non-existent. As discussed above, the current government in Kosovo has been recognized as an independent state by a significant number of countries, including important neighbors. Considering all these facts, I'd argue that by legitimizing the term "Autonomous Province of Kosovo" -- considering the little evidence that such a thing exists other than in the mind of Serb nationalists -- implies a Serbian POV. The Republic of Kosovo, however, does exist, albeit in a status that some countries have challenged. To guard against Albanian POV, I'd argue strongly that the article reflect the fact that its status is challenged and, preferably, include the concise legal argumentation that Serbia and Russia use to oppose it. Finally, I strongly reiterate my previous statements about the fact that there is no single "UN position" on the legitimacy of Kosovo's independence. A big chunk of Security Council members have recognized Kosovo's independence; others have not. The Council is deadlocked and therefore cannot provide guidance or the legitimacy that Security Council blessing would bestow on any international question. Envoy202 (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

CIS, CSTO mentions are redundant

I would like to suggest a change to the sentence that currently reads: "As of today, no member-country of CIS, CSTO and SCO have recognized Kosovo as independent."

The CSTO has seven members, every one of which is a member of the Commonwealth of Independent States. Therefore listing both organizations in this sentence doesn't really add any information about the member-countries' decisions about recognition. I think it does not serve the reader, who might conclude there is a greater unanimity in one particular direction than there really is.

I suggest this sentence be changed to the following: "As of today, no member-country of CIS or SCO has recognized Kosovo as independent." (The current version of the sentence should likewise say "has recognized" for grammatical reasons.)

I believe this change would be uncontroversial, but I don't want to put up the editprotected flag before floating the idea on this talk page. Njm0 (talk) 00:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually SCO would also be redundant as it's just some CIS members plus China. Could just say CHINA!--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo's Territory Size

10887 km2??? A look at factual note reveals 10,908 km2 Kosova2008 (talk) 04:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)Kosova2008

..and 2,126,708 estimated through calculation, rather than vague 1.9 million. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

recognition number update

{{editprotected}}

Hello admins,

Yesterday Japan decided to recognize Kosovo. This brings the tally of countries that have recognized Kosovo to 28. Could an admin update the infobox and the introduction to the new figure?

Sources:

• Japanese Foreign Ministry:
  • Statement by Foreign Minister Masahiko Koumura on the Recognition of the Republic of Kosovo
  • Template:Ja icon コソボ共和国の承認について
• International Herald Tribune: Japan recognises Kosovo independence from Serbia
• Sofia News Agency: Japan Recognises Kosovo's Independence
• Turkish Press: Japan recognises Kosovo

- Thanks, Hoshie 10:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

 Not done - I see no reason why this information needs to be updated after each new recognition. In the introduction it says "as of March 5", so that statement is still accurate. I don't see where in the infobox needs to be updated. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if we provide those numbers than it seems quite reasonable to give the most current ones. But of course we can remove them all together and just link to International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence. Be that as it may, at least the recognition part in the infobox should either be updated or removed entirely. Gugganij (talk) 14:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It is highly misleading to give an outdated number in the lead and infobox. I'm against removing the whole recognition part, it is a really important question now politically for both the Kosovar and Serbian sides. I don't see your problem with updating the article as the situation changes. Not such a big deal. Zello (talk) 15:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Canada will be recognising Kosovo, that is according to the media. Sources inside the Serbian embassy have said that the Canadian government informed them this morning that they would be recognising Kosovo shortly. As for why the article does not really call it a country... Well the worlds only Superpower says so, so its so. Thats just how it works in the world. Sorry. --134.117.151.251 (talk) 19:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

there is no reason not to update this number. it is a purely objective number and as such not subject to edit wars or disputes. dab (𒁳) 11:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo Albanians had separatist movement before milosevic

"Soon thereafter Kosovo Albanians organized a non-violent separatist movement, employing widespread civil disobedience, with the ultimate goal of achieving the independence of Kosovo" This should be corrected, because it is partly true. Kosovo Albanians had separatist movement, before this event (New York Times 1982-07-12, "Exodus of Serbians Stirs Province in Yugoslavia" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kosovo#_note-nyt19820712) and it was inspired by The Great Albania project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Albania). You can state that Milosevic politic speed up their activities but not that they soon after his speech organized separatist movement. Hope my comment will improve this article and harmonize it with other Wikipedia articlse related to this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IGøR (talk • contribs) 17:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Also you should remove "a non-violent" ... In the other wikipedia articles that deal with this matter you'll find how violent they really were... so please delete "a non-violent" becuase that is incorrect

I do not understand why do you keep referring to the article written in Wikipedia, when this talk page exist based on the dispute of the very same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.11.216 (talk) 17:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

In those articles disputes are have been mainly resolved... And it is easy for editors to check comments,,, also referring to Wikipedia articles helping harmonization of articles that deal with same matter. Cool down mr. Bold letters, no need to be nervous ;ø) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.69.114 (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Canada recognized Kosovo

I am making a small break from my Kosovo-party to login to Wikipedia and let you know that another World Power - Canada - has recognized Kosovo independence, and according to some reports, Croatia, Bulgaria and some more countries will follow suit tommorow. Please include this info in the article. Got2 go now, I intend to get drunk today, there is just too much happiness in my life as a result of Kosovo indepdence. Heroic Albanian people are my idols. Bosniak (talk) 01:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh. This is the first time I've EVER heard Canada referred to as a world power. Careful, you'll give us even more inflated egos than we have already. Gopher65_talk 02:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Canada is a world power. It is a member of NATO and G8. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.172.156 (talk) 11:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Canada's "power" status is without consequence for the purposes of this article. It has long become clear that geopolitically, this is a matter of the "US-sphere" vs. those countries that are either "anti-USA" have their own secessionist movements to deal with. Reasons to not recognize the RoK are either an "anti-US" position (South American countries), or fear of secession (Azerbaijan, Spain, Sri Lanka, Cyprus) or both (Russia+China). dab (𒁳) 11:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Well as far as recognition goes there are about 12 small countries (many in the caribean) which usually follow Canada's Lead on international affairs. More recognitions will come shortly. --134.117.151.251 (talk) 19:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So far the best recognition has been switzerlands.--Jakezing (talk) 20:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Canada, Our Home and Native Land!!! Canada's recognition was significant. First, it's a G8 member and important economic contributor. Second, its foreign relations are generally seen as a positive moral force that upholds principles of international law. Third, it's not in Europe, so its recognition shows that the logic of Kosovo's independence appeals outside of the immediate region. The recognition of Canada -- as well as Japan, which is also important -- deserve noteworthy reference in the article. Envoy202 (talk) 01:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Lol. :D --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Recognitions

Another update is needed because Monaco, Hungary, Croatia and Bulgaria recognized Kosovo. Now the number of UN member countries who recognized the new state went up to 33 (the infobox number is also wrong) while only two remained in waiting (at least officially). Zello (talk) 13:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Number of Serbs who fled Kosovo in 1999

According to Yugoslav statistics the number of Serbs in Kosovo in 1999 was approx 200 000. 130 000 are left and this means only 70 000 fled Kosovo and not 200 000 as some for propaganda purposes are claiming. This should be corrected. I have plenty of sources but to avoid any NPOV discussion I am using only non-Albanian sources. In the books Kosovo author V.Knaus currently working for ESI writes that the correct number is 70 000. I think Wikipedia should change the paragraph dealing with this so the correct number is made available for the readers of WP. --Noah30 (talk) 15:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It might be true, but it has to be confirmed by the Kosovo Government.Only then can be true and impartial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.11.216 (talk) 18:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Ack, this is a contentious issue! Many words were shed over this issue several months back. Here's the problem: the most "official" numbers are based on UNHCR sources. Everybody knows that the UNHCR numbers were inflated and made no sense considering the demographic realities you cite above. Nevertheless, it's hard to come by any other numbers. There was an European Stability Initiative piece a few years ago that established a compelling methodology proving a much lower number (check it out on their website). When this issue was last discussed, there was a wave of people who said that the European Stability Initiative was biased against Serbs (I never quite understood this...) and that the number was unreliable. The bottom line: we don't know the exact numbers and the statistics are so controversial that any reasonable estimate will be challenged. Envoy202 (talk) 01:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Precisely. The same is with the over-inflation of numbers of Albanian refugees during the 1990s, of the Georgian refugees from Abkhazia etc...but I guess that's standard practice. :P --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Bradt book on Kosovo: The claim that more than 200 000Serbs have fled Kosovo since 1999 has been one of the most persistent myths created in post-war Kosovo. repeated by Serbian government and internatioanl organisations it has become something of an Orthodoxy; but a closer look at offical data - including Serbian government souces- confirm that it i snot true. According to Yugoslav census in 1991, there were 194 000 resident Serbs in Kosovo. The 1990s saw a steadt net outflow of Serbs from Kosovo...In 2003, the Kosovo Co-ordination Centre published a report about Serbs in Kosovo. According to this report, 129,474 were still living in Kosovo.

This says a lot. The numbers are being manipulated for propaganda purposes. --Noah30 (talk) 13:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to forget about the Montenegrins: the Montenegrins all had their national (re)awakening and there are no more ethnic Montes in Kosovo. The total figure then given is 215,000. Then you have to also remember that the precisely cited number is 260,000 as well as that it includes all non-Albanians, as is traditional in not only the Yugoslav wars, but elsewhere too. As for ethnic Serbs themselves, the UN stated after 1999 a figure of 100,000, which is probably close to reality. You have got also to remember that some refugees from the Croatian and Bosnian wars settled in Kosovo, and that estimate for the moment before the Kosovo war was 244,000 Serbs (possible overestimate). All in all, we can see that it sort of corresponds the percentage of non-Albanians after the war, that is today (some sources also cite "and Roms", some even mention "non-Albanians" - but most, as you saw yourself, just say "Serbs"). In any way, that is perfectly same to the manipulated numbers of Albanian refugees during the 1990s (850,000). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

This is very simple maths. According to Serb sources in the beginning of 90's Albanians made 88 % of Kosovo population which means 12 % were non-Albanian. Serbian government also claimed that approx 1.9 million people lived in Kosovo. 0,12 * 1 900 000 = 228 000 non-Albanians. These calculations leave very little room for interpretations. By the way the way interpret the numbers is original research since you are guessing (when they said Serbs they meant non-Albanians etc etc) a lot while arguing.--Noah30 (talk) 16:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Er, no, you're wrong. At the 1991 population census, 360,124 non-Albanians registered themselves. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

For example, CeSID (which is pretty neutral) published that in 1998 there were 273,449 Serbs/Montenegrins in Kosovo-Metohija. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I don't agree but I will come back to you after some months and explain why you are wrong and I believe you know that. --Noah30 (talk) 20:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

1991 population census: 194,190 Serbs, 57,758 Muslims, 44,307 Romany, 10,455 Turks, 9,091 Albanians, 8,062 Croats, 3,457 Yugoslavs. 1,596,072 was estimated as a true number of Albanians, forming 81.5%. You claim that there were 88% Albanians and 12% non-Albanians (or 228,000). The real number of non-Albanians, 360,124 according to the calculator. I'm sorry, but you're the one who's wrong and I think it's pretty obvious. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Templates to be added

{{editprotected}}

The following templates should be added to this article: (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Central_European_Free_Trade_Agreement_CEFTA

--Noah30 (talk) 16:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

actually it's here: Template:Central European Free Trade Agreement (CEFTA) ninety:one 23:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done, but in future please put the editprotected template down here so it's easier to tell what you want done. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 17:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Editprotected

{{editprotected}} The country code in the infobox should be fixed, currently it doesn't link correctly. 68.39.174.238 (talk) 20:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done Please don't put the editprotected template in section titles - it makes a horrible mess. Happy‑melon 22:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Rename

After another editor pointed out an article already exists for Kosovo as a region and given that there are articles on Kosovo as a UN protectorate and autonomous province I think talk about a split is no longer necessary and instead this article should simply be renamed Republic of Kosovo and have Kosovo redirect to Kosovo (disambiguation).--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Basically, the article already is split. However, Kosovo is still trying to describe the region, partially recognized state, and province, which clearly isn't working. I agree that Kosovo should be redirected to Kosovo (disambiguation), which is basically option #3 above, and a separate Republic of Kosovo article should be made somehow. Superm401 - Talk 06:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any good reason why we should split the Kosovo article in so many articles. What do people want to achieve?Create confusion? All Kosovo articles should be merged to one Kosovo article since we are talking about the same area in all the articles. Now Kosovo is independent and a republic. In the history section we can explain that Kosovo until 1999 was a Yugoslav province and etc. Kosovo should direct to the main Kosovo article. --Noah30 (talk) 09:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

That's insane there obviously needs to be a separate article for Kosovo UNMIK and Kosovo as an autonomous province as both are historical entities not simply different perceptions of the declared state. The article on Kosovo as a region was created the day of independence, likely due to the fact that such a dispute over Kosovo's status was known to be coming up. So really the only question is what to do with this article not whether there should be a split. That's why I suggest a simple rename for the article and redirect for the present title of Kosovo to the disambiguation page. There needs to be an article dealing with Kosovo solely as a self-declared state, but presently it would be very biased to make the article under its current title into such an article. This article under the title Republic of Kosovo can be focused entirely on the self-declared state.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

For me it is very difficult to understand why you want 10 Kosovo articles when we can have one instead and explain all the things in one article. If we split (you have already done it) we will create confusion and the readers will have to click 10 times in order to understand what Kosovo is all about. Kosovo is Kosovo and there is no difference between Autonomous Kosovo, UNMIK Kosovo and Republic of Kosovo. They have same borders, same people, same cities, same history etc except the political status. The UNMIK will very soon leave so it is not necessary to create new articles. Kosovo is not a self-declared state anymore, was that only during a few days. When you are recognized then you are a real state, unlike e.g. North Cyprus that is recognized only by Turkey. Happy Eastern --Noah30 (talk) 19:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't you think your support for Kosovo might be preventing you from looking at the situation from a neutral point of view? We can't have all of Kosovo's history present in the same article and we can't treat Kosovo like a regular nation such as Germany when Russia, China, India, Brazil, Mexico, Ukraine, Algeria, Georgia, Spain, Romania, and others are saying they will continue to recognize Kosovo as a part of Serbia. Serbia has apparently proposed formalizing the de-facto partition in Kosovo. Kosovo's government does not control its own borders or control the areas with Serbs. It's possible the Gorani community might also become part of this de-facto partition. Ultimately this partition is based on Serbia's sovereignty claim and Kosovo's independence claim so favoring one claim over another, no matter the reason, is a clear bias.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

My support for Kosovo does not have anything to do with the way I am proposing we should present Kosovo article here at WP. We can treat Kosovo as any other country and at the same time be able to present that some countries oppose Kosovo’s independence. It is very interesting fact that those who read this article mostly come from Western, English speaking countries and we both know Australia, USA, Canada, UK have recognized the independence. Yes I know that WP should not present the views of English-speaking world but this is the reality on most articles since people in Algeria, Senegal does not care writing about Kosovo here at WP. People are already confused by Balkans and if we create more articles on Kosovo the confusion will be total and they will have to read for hours in order to understand why we have different articles. But let’s say we split, anyway we can only have to articles the first Kosovo, and the other Rep. of Kosovo. The first is the Kosovo according to 1244. According to 1244 Kosovo is a UN protectorate and UN have control over everything in Kosovo, so a Serbia-controlled Kosovo is not recognized by any country since UN Sec. Res. are binding for all other UN members and 1244 states Yugoslav forces have to withdraw. The second is Kosovo declared on February 17th, but I don't see and discontinuity between pre- and post- 17th of February Kosovo. They are the same and we have continuity in form of a transition period where constitution has to be approved, vital laws based on Ahtisaari package, receiving recognitions etc. To me you proposal sounds as we should create different articles where we present, Albanian, Serbian, Russian point of views. I think it is possible to have Republic of Kosovo on Kosovo and mention that Serbia is against and is supported by Russia. Excuse me if I make any grammar or syntax errors while writing.--Noah30 (talk) 20:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

None of those arguments make any damn sense. The question here is simply whether this article should be renamed to Republic of Kosovo and have Kosovo redirect to Kosovo (disambiguation). It is the appropriate way to address this issue at the present time. Should Serbia change its mind, unlikely, then we can change back to Kosovo but for know the uncontroversial and neutral title of Republic of Kosovo is more than suitable as it treats the partially-recognized state as a partially-recognized state. The result would be the same situation we have with Western Sahara.

I also find it interesting that every pro-Kosovo editor seems to be against any changes which do not treat Kosovo like a normal independent country, when it is clearly not normal, often describing any article which does this is a POV fork as you just did, yet every last one of them says their support for Kosovo independence is not why they're against the proposed changes. Most curious indeed.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Devil's Advocate, comparing Kosovo to West Sahara is nonsense since Kosovo is recognized by 33 countries in the world that make up 65 % of the world GDP while West Sahara is recognized by a few or maybe none. You accuse us of being biased but I don't think you are totally without bias; maybe you are pushing an anti-EU/US/globalism bias? Who knows... Your argument that Kosovo has to be recognized by Serbia in order to be treated as any other independent country is also without any substance. Kosovo meets/will meet all of the criteria of an independent country and that's why it can be considered independent. You have the same problem with Israel; only a few of the neighbors recognize it but they are considered independent. I would ask you to be more polite when you answer and not try to impose on us your POV and stop acting as you are the owner of the truth, as you do sometimes when you answer to us. --Noah30 (talk) 09:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Western Sahara is recognized by more countries than Kosovo right now. I believe the number was 44 and they have a much better claim to independence as their independence would just be continuing decolonization and the UN has come out and said they have a right to self-determination. Morocco, in fact, agreed to this but then changed their mind. So Western Sahara has an international agreement saying Western Sahara has a right to independence and Morocco agreed, which is a lot stronger basis for independence than Kosovo's, which is primarily based on the fact they were cracked down on by Milosevic, who is of course dead and was deposed by Serbians. So their main basis for independence is no longer an issue and no section of international law, Serbian law, or Yugoslav law says they can declare independence, though I myself thought the old Yugoslav did it apparently does not.

As far as bias, I'm not against the U.S. as I live there and while I'm not fond of the EU or globalism I fail to see what that has to do with Kosovo. If anything Kosovo's independence actually endangers the EU and globalism.

In spite of everything you said none of this justifies the current article. For one there is a substantial difference between Israel and Kosovo. Israel's government is not officially recognized by some countries, but not a one considers Israel to be a part of any other country. This puts them in stark contrast with Taiwan, Western Sahara, Kosovo, and others which are recognized as part of another country by at least some countries. The only article that is similar to your proposal for Kosovo is Abkhazia and that article presents a very clear argument against doing the same with Kosovo as the article on Abkhazia is a messy POV piece of trash article.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Now I have the answers I needed. You are pushing anti-independence propaganda and therefore you are one, if not the most, biased editor on the Kosovo article. When you display such strong anti-Albanian sentiment by glorifying the hell Albanians went through during the 90's but also before, then I can not consider you independent in this issue. You are wrong about Israel since they are not recognized independent by Arab countries and this means Israel, the whole or just parts of it, are considered parts of other countries by many Arab countries like e.g. Syria. Self-determination applies to Kosovo, have this in mind and I wonder what do you get when you type West Sahara? Unfortunately I will not be able to contribute in the coming weeks but I will come back. I am a senior editor and will come back in a few months with much more facts and get things right. I hope other editors will do what is necessary to keep Kosovo related articles NPOV, something I really doubt but PLEASE try at least. I know you have a difficult task but you WP admins have to be committed to NPOV. Good luck to all those of you who are working for a neutral Wikipedia. You are making a great contribution for humanity. Shame on those who are using all their energy to make POV edits. --Noah30 (talk) 20:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for demonstrating exactly how biased you are. It seems that just because I question the legitimacy of Kosovo's independence by pointing out nothing in the Yugoslav or Serbian constitution gave them the right to secede and the only justification for independence became a non-issue years ago it not only means I'm anti-independence it also means I'm anti-Albanian, the most biased editor on the article, and "glorifying" the suffering of Albanians. My point was that the legal situation with Western Sahara is overwhelmingly in favor of its independence and it is recognized as independent by more nations yet the article that comes up is not an article on the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic but an article on the disputed territory itself. So if the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic isn't treated like a regular country then why should Kosovo? The only thing keeping this article from being treated like that of any other disputed country is a bunch of pro-Kosovo editors coming in an sticking their bias into the whole situation.

Renaming the article is a simple way of getting rid of most POV problems. If the situation over Kosovo changes, like Serbia deciding to recognize Kosovo, then the article can be adjusted to treat Kosovo like any other country. For now however, to treat Kosovo like it was Germany or even Montenegro is demonstrating a bias because Kosovo is not accepted as a country by a large number of nations. The comparison to Israel is just nonsense. No one honestly disputes their independence, those not recognizing are simply refusing to recognize Israel as the legitimate government of the territory it governs.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

None of the articles have redundant purposes, and you are being ridiculous by suggesting "readers will have to click 10 times"; the three options will be obvious on the disambig page. As Devil's Advocate notes, it is untenable to claim Kosovo has a status equal to other fully recognized countries. The comparison to Israel is invalid, because again as noted, no other existing state claims the territory. Finally, stop arguing about who has a "better" claim, or who violated such-and-such UN resolution. We're talking about the article, not whether Kosovo should be a state. Superm401 - Talk 10:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

As I said, people should contribute constructively to the poll above. Superm401 - Talk 10:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Noah is absolutely right. It's a little ridiculous otherwise. Envoy202 (talk) 13:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. —Nightstallion 15:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Noah is absolutely right. --Tubesship (talk) 06:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose move. Articles can cover parts of the history, it is standard for most articles on geographic locations. We still don't have to disambiguate anything, when people type Kosovo, they want to know about this geographic location. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That's true. There's no doubt that right now the readers are expecting this article when they type "Kosovo" BalkanFever 09:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

What is "this article"? The article says, "is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo". That is not the article everyone is expecting. Many will be expecting to read about the partially-recognized state Republic of Kosovo, which currently redirects here; that is not what the article is. Others will want to read about it as a province of Serbia; the article doesn't do that well either. Many people saying "I agree" and "Indeed" does not a coherent argument make. Superm401 - Talk 10:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Provocating!!

I belive that this fact is uncorrect!!

"Up to 20,000 Kosovo Albanian women were raped by Serbs during the Kosovo carnage"

on what studies is this fact based on???

REAL FACTS ______ "Human Rights Watch documented 96 cases of rape by Serbian and Yugoslav forces against Kosovar Albanian women immediately BEFORE and DURING the 1999 bombing campaign"

http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/03/kosrape.htm http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/srape.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.220.65 (talk) 21:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Real facts says up to 20 000 Albanians women http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/apr/16/balkans

If ou want to read some of the stories go to this website, the interpretation is not that good but you understand everything http://www.vajzat.com/eng.htm --Noah30 (talk) 21:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

GDP (PPP)

According to CIA The World Factbook GDP (ppp) for Kosovo is $1,800 (2007. estimate). Please add this.

I think GDP should be PPP-adjusted. I have read something by UNDP and they said PPP-adjusted GDP was around 3000 dollars. It is fair to PPP-adjust it since you with one dollar much more in Kosovo than e.g. USA or UK. --Noah30 (talk) 23:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The UNMIK-line

The CIA Factbook has been updated: the notion "UNMIK-line" on the Kosovan/Serbian border has been removed from the maps. See: Kosovo and Serbia. --Camptown (talk) 22:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, no UNMIK line anylonger. It's a border between Serbia and Republic of Kosovo, soon to require a passport. 24.82.181.243 (talk) 06:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

this is not a region

but a republic that have received recognition from several nations around the world. --Ezzex (talk) 23:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a republic, entity (protectorate). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

FactBook lists Map of Serbia *without* Kosovo

FactBook 2008 lists map of Serbia without Kosovo, see map. Also, FactBook 2008 lists map of Kosovo *without* Serbia, see map. I recommend we use these maps in the article. 24.82.181.243 (talk) 06:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, this CIA map (in English language) also use Albanian names as main names for Kosovar cities, so names of the articles about Kosovar cities should be also changed. Claim that Serbian names for Kosovan cities are most common English names does not stand any more. 81.18.54.227 (talk) 09:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

this is the CIA FactBook. Which obviously takes the official US pov. Wikipedia doesn't take the official US pov, it takes the npov. dab (𒁳) 10:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I think Serbian sources are even more POV. --Tubesship (talk) 15:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

And that's your POV. We can go around in circles with this, or you can just get over it. No CIA map. BalkanFever 10:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You should learn to accept facts and realities. The CIA map is correct, Kosova is independent, get over it, please. --Tubesship (talk) 10:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

References (making the article smaller without the big list...)

I suggest that the references chapter could be made smaller like one many articles - like Estonia article where i added such code line:

This reduces the article length a lot, also it gives better view upon the hole page as the end of the article would not be filled with endless line of notes, books and links. I hope that this edit cabn be made here. Or if not then I will make myself after the page protection has ended. I wish only that the Kosovo article would be improved and futher developed :) --Karabinier (talk) 20:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for Editing

Can we add the CIA Factbook MAP that shows Kosovo as a country in the declaring Independence section of this article please? Perhaps if applicable, we can also add the pre-declaration CIA World Fact Book MAP, or maybe even just a map that shows Serbia with Kosovo included as Russia and Serbia maintain as fact to this day. I really think that the reader of this Wiki would benefit from a map of how the USA and other countries see Kosovo now. Visual aides like that are always welcome in my humble opinion. I don't feel this should be controversial as long as the map is defined as what it is: The CIA's and those who support the declaration, map of Kosovo.Beamathan (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This map is at Image:Kosovo-CIA WFB Map.png and is currently used at Kosovo_(geopolitical_region)#Political_boundaries. However, I don't think it should be added here until the page is unprotected, which should happen after the split discussion is resolved. Superm401 - Talk 09:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

"Cradle of Serbia"

Why can't Kosovo be considered the "cradle of Serbia" and be an independent country? I don't see the issue that some people have with this. Can people who are more knowledgable about this explain that to me? Why can't we say in the article that The Republic of Kosovo is(or will always be) considered the "cradle of Serbia." You can even further define it by adding by Serbians. Of course try to stay away from weasel words...so I'd be willing to find a good source for it that doesn't really address the independence but just addresses the "fact" that Kosovo is the "cradle of Serbia." Again, I don't see why The Republic of Kosovo isn't "the cradle of Serbia" but Kosovo as a part of the country of Serbia is. Beamathan (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Why? Because Kosova is not the cradle of Serbia, this is propaganda speech and we should stay away from this. --Tubesship (talk) 08:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The "Cradle of Serbia" it is a serbian termin and history point of view. I agree that this is risky to use as it can be missunderstood very easily. Karabinier (talk) 11:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It should simply be presented as the Serb point of view, alongside the Albanian view. It's not "risky" in any way. Superm401 - Talk 09:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact is it is regarded as "the cradle of Serbia" by the Serbs (and possibly by Serbia, if you make that distinction). It should be mentioned in the article that it is regarded as such, i.e. not stating as fact that it is, and not stating as fact that it isn't. The reader can choose to agree with the view or not. BalkanFever 10:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The "Cradle of Serbia" as description for Kosovo is not even an Serbian point of view - it is only point of view of some radical Serbian nationalists, but this point of view contradicting historical facts because objective Serbian historians agree that cradle of Serbian civilization was in fact Sandžak. Kosovo was conquered by Serbia only in the 12th century. 81.18.54.227 (talk) 10:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

For 'Cradle Deniers': Systemic Destruction under KFOR 'protection'

Lakinekaki (talk) 12:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

To be or not to be

Im watching this moving up-and-down. But, the quesqen is not Kosovo, but Wikipedia. The Kosovo problem is populare all over word. And with this "Load of serbian propagander" in wikipedia, the speed of growing the Wikipedia is gong to be not so easy. The fackt is thate, nevermater what is saying Serbia and Rusia, in english books, in english offical documents Kosovo is going to be a Republika of Kosovo. This is clear for all of as. I thing, I dont have to remember you for the news papers, for CIA fact ect.

Beacose of this, how you see I dont know english so gut, but I know thate the "River of the en.Wikipedia" is part of the "River of english languge". English Wikipedia, with articels about Kosovo is losing the step of the time. I am a Kosovar, I know thate the futur of my contry is not depending from Wikipedia, I am a Wikipedia member and I know thate English Wikipedia has loste the chanche to be firs witch is wolking with time and now is losing his pull position with some articels witch belong to history.

Before two years I have started to help with arguments in the article about Kosovo, not only thate Im Kosovar, but beacose the Kosovo Status is populer in the World. And this it was good chanche for wikipedia to be the firs.

Even some serbs thing thate they cane contibute to they idea about Kosovo if they write some sentens thate they are not thru or thate they are not compatibel with the time, the dont have to forget thate the solution about Kosovo is not depanding from Wikipedia. And so they are demangen English Wikipedia and they dont help there interes.

Beacose of thate, please if you (serbs, rusians) are not intersting for English Wikipedia make a forum alswhere for your "War" and late the peopel work for the peopel. This is not a War-area, this is Wikipedia. - Hipi Zhdripi