Talk:Linux

What happens if I change the name of the article?

What happens if I change this article to GNU/Linux? Will you change it back? You do not know the truth! This article is a lie! --212.247.27.92 (talk) 13:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Who? Me? I'd say that's great. But yes, some people here would revert your move. Either way, you'll have to state your case a bit better. --Gronky (talk) 13:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you need to use more exclamation marks!!! That makes a better case. -- AdrianTM (talk) 14:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

You can't because there are already edits to the GNU/Linux page. That and it would get reverted back ("you don't know the truth - the article is a lie" is not a valid reason). ~~ [Jam]^[talk] 14:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure it isn't a valid reason? I mean, dozens of people have made it over the years... :) Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, you would know more about these things than I do :). ~~ [Jam]^[talk] 18:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't undo my edits

My edits are true verifiable information, and i will continue to revert to them if you keep removing them. If you dont like it, TOUGH —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.151.133 (talk) 03:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that this article is skewed toward linux and does not agnoledge

Other operating systems or competitors. It seems that the entire article talks about the root of linux and not what linux really is. It doesnt mention much if anything about Suse, or RedHat or any of the various linux companies that actually make linux what it is today: a usable operating system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpolster2005 (talk • contribs) 03:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Those issues are discussed in detail in the sub articles History of Linux and Linux distribution. This is a summary article due to the shear volume of information available on the subject.-Localzuk^(talk) 07:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

compositing desktop image

After the compiz-fusion image was removed, I wonder if there should be an image again showing the capabilities of desktop effects. The image used might be too much vista in design, any recommendations here? 81.209.206.122 (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Linux vs GNU/Linux and Wikipedia categories

I have a "Wikipedians who use GNU/Linux" category tag on my home page. For the third time this has now been removed by some member of the WP category police. The Linux vs GNU/Linux debate - a deeply political one in the world of Free and/or/plus/else Open Software - is being fought in the WP category namespace. As is plainly obvious from discussions here, there are many who agree that the name of the o/s is GNU/Linux. The WP category namespace should not reflect the POV of those who disagree. Systematically, however, category links such as mine are being removed en masse, sometimes by bots. Two pleas: Those who think the name should not be GNU/Linux are asked to respect the opinion of others. And those who think (know!) the name of the o/s is GNU/Linux should please include the code [[Category:Wikipedians who use GNU/Linux|<userid>]] on their home page (replacing <userid> appropriately). Thank you. Paul Beardsell (talk) 06:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Whoever is removing that category just has to explain their reasoning, so I've added that category so that I might hear the explanation. Do keep in mind though that this isn't a battle. Much better to keep things calm and let common sense prevail rather than using war terminology and entrenching people. --Gronky (talk) 10:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

To reflect the often heated discussion here at WP and elsewhere as a "battle" is fair, in my view. While the editors of this article have been discussing the correct wording in an attempt to gain consensus, someone has been going around changing the category names underneath us - to the point now I think it is only reversible thru lots of hard work. We already are finding ourselves in an entrenched position, one many of us don't like. In the GNU/Linux vs Linux naming debate WP is already being cited as an authority! Paul Beardsell (talk) 21:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The category was deleted and split into Category:Wikipedians who use GNU and Category:Wikipedians who use Linux. Deleted categories are cleaned up from user pages by bots and AWB users, not by the "WP category police". Prolog (talk) 11:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Policing is exactly what these bots do. Any negative connotations may be as a result of your experience of your local public services. Paul Beardsell (talk) 21:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Aha. So it was just a bad decision. We should get the category reinstated. I use GNU, and I use Linux, and I use the GNU/Linux operating system. --Gronky (talk) 11:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The category was deleted last April - see the discussion and result here. In my opinion (and from what was said in the reason behind deleting it), it makes sense to have the two categories. ~~ [Jam]^[talk] 13:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not against the two categories "GNU" and "Linux". I just want a third: "GNU/Linux". There is no Wikimedia technical reason why this cannot be, it's a political debate. Paul Beardsell (talk) 21:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Also: Follow Jam's link, above, and what do we see. Most participants in the discussion were *against* the category renaming/deletion decision taken. The most vocal proponent of the change uses circular reasoning again and again, citing some current WP (GNU/)Linux usage repeatedly to support his view over what the WP terminology ought to be. Paul Beardsell (talk) 21:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

CFD is not a vote. The argument was decided that the splits have better points. Also, if it were a vote, there were 3 who wished to split and 2 who wished to stay the same.-Localzuk^(talk) 22:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Circular reasoning is not good reasoning but whoever made the decision was seemingly taken in by it. Paul Beardsell (talk) 22:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, while I think user categories are vanity-cruft in the extreme I hardly think it's appropriate to go telling other people what silly labels they can give themselves. However, this is a userspace argument and isn't appropriately discussed on an article talk page. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Where is the correct place to hold this discussion, assuming you admit to the validity of it being held at all? Paul Beardsell (talk) 09:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Category talk:Wikipedians who use Linux would be a good place. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 01:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, for what is worth I could say that I use GNU/Windows... who cares, that's userspace stuff. :P Man with one red shoe (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Mercedes vs Mercedes-Benz

I know the correct proper name of any o/s is not Linux. We all know that use of the term Linux always requires disambiguation - either explicitly or by context. We can disagree what constitutes an o/s but we all know it is more than a kernel. Some of us can do without Samba and/or Apache and/or X (all of which use GNU software as component parts and for the build process) but those of us running Free and/or/plus/else Open Software can do without GNU (by using BusyBox) just as often as we manage without Linux (by using BSD). GNU is essential to the overall FOSS experience for almost all of us, just as the Linux kernel is.

I aspire to own a Mercedes car but we all know the correct branding is Mercedes-Benz. And if we don't know it then we want our encyclopedia to know it. That WP is confused as to Mercedes vs Mercedes-Benz we all know is but a glitch - it will be resolved and the resulting article will be called Mercedes-Benz. Popularly, however, the vehicles will be known as "Mercedes". And typing "Mercedes" into the search panel will take us (via a disambiguation page or seemingly directly) to the "Mercedes-Benz" article.

I would prefer this article be renamed "GNU/Linux". I read Stallman's reasoning and I find it hard to disagree with it. Perhaps his motivation is egocentric but so what! Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. He is due a lot of credit for his vision and lonely evangelism during the dark ages of proprietary-only software. Like him or not, he has benefited us all.

But I have an idea on which all of can agree, I think. This article should be renamed "Linux (operating system)". The "Linux" page could simply redirect here but I would prefer a disambiguation page referencing "Linux (operating system)" and "Linux (kernel)" with a very brief explanatory note.

It would be a pity to not call this page "GNU/Linux" but what we can't have is it being called "Linux". It's like calling the "Mercedes-Benz" page "Mercedes".

Paul Beardsell (talk) 22:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Mercedes-Benz is called as such by the indisputable owners of the company. There is no indisputable owner of the collection of software referred to by most people as "Linux", so any arguments of correctness go out of the window. Moving the current page to Linux (operating system) is just appeasement of a very vocal minority; the hatnote already clearly indicates the article's scope. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

That's neither helpful not illuminative. You might as well point out that a Mercedes is a brand of car, not an operating system kernel. It's a given that there are always parts of an analogy which do not apply. Linux doesn't have any one owner. So what? The point of the analogy is plain: The common name of something is not *always* the correct name of that thing in an encyclopedia. "Hoover" is another example. Paul Beardsell (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Hoover is a genericised trademark. There's no fitting comparison there at all. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Linux is also a trademark. For an operating system kernel! Hoover does not refer to all vacuum cleaners. Linux does not refer to all free and open software. (Now, I know the analogy is not perfect. If it were perfect it would not be identifiable as an analogy.) Paul Beardsell (talk) 09:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Linus Torvalds has said that he is happy if anybody used Linux for anything provided that they get permission to use it from LMI therefore Linux is not a specific trademark and in any case is not only for the kernel otherwise distributions like Red Had Linux would have problems to call their distributions Linux, it's obvious that your argument is flawed. -- AdrianTM (talk) 14:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

As for the right to attribution, there is no such thing. The FSF is extremely spotty in applying this, as are its supporters - the FSF officially insists that XEmacs be referred to as GNU XEmacs, for instance, and has a similar position in the project's development history, but there aren't monthly arguments about that issue on Wikipedia. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Read what I wrote. I am trying to move away from an argument about attribution to one of disambiguation. I am arguing the article remains neither "Linux" (your preference) nor "GNU/Linux" (my preference) but rather it be renamed to "Linux (operating system)" as a non-controversial compromise, because I think we all agree that there is a disambiguation issue to be resolved, in both our heads and in the encyclopedia, every time we use the word Linux. Often this is done from context. There is no context in an encyclopedia article title. Paul Beardsell (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not name articles to "avoid controversy". In fact, its policy invites controversy from minority partisans (North Korea, Taiwan). By punting Linux to Linux (operating system) (a move I once advocated myself on here) one raises the question of what Linux should point to. Pointing it to Linux (disambiguation) rejects WP:NAME by lending vastly less commonm interpretations equal weight. Pointing it at Linux (operating system) obviates the need for a move in the first place. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Your interpretation of the intention of WP policy cannot be correct. But, leaving that aside, it seems you cannot see any *harm* in having the article renamed "Linux (operating system)". Your interpretation of WP policy is that popularity is the overriding issue. Were that the case what would the "energy" article be about? Not the physical science usage of the term. Similarly, on WP the "Linux" article should be the correct one, from a computer science perspective, not the populist one. It's not our job to reflect a dumbed-down world. Paul Beardsell (talk) 09:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

His interpretation is correct. Also, there is no 'correct' usage of Linux from any point of view, other than those used by popular choice.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

XEmacs doesn't have the problem of being used ambiguously, so the comparison to Linux fails. --MarSch (talk) 17:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

There's no current problem with ambiguity, as the hatnotes suffice to point any potentially confused readers in the right direction immediately. Almost all advocates of change argue not because of the question of ambiguity but because of a partisanship which demands that "Linux" not be usd to refer to a complete operating system. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

And there is a "partisanship" which demands the opposite. There *is* a problem with disambiguation otherwise why would we be having this discussion? The disambiguation problem is being made worse by you because you have changed "GNU/Linux" to "Linux" and have done so wholesale. The hatnotes demonstrate the disambiguity problem. Paul Beardsell (talk) 23:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Busybox and μC-Linux

Hiya all, I wondered why there is no mention of Busybox or μC-Linux despite the disambiguation saying "This article is about operating systems that use the Linux kernel." Would anyone know whether this omission is intentional? As otherwise we could write up a small section mentioning them. Okoura (talk) 06:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not intentional; the article has always been desktop-centric because more people have experience writing about desktop Linux. Feel free to expand its coverage of embedded systems. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It is because this article is actually about GNU/Linux but has the wrong name. -- Borb (talk) 14:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

IceWM

Other GUIs include X window managers such as FVWM, Enlightenment and Window Maker. I am new on WikiPedia sorry if I make any mistakes. I just wanted to point out that I think IceWM should be included in this list as it is available as an alternative Window Manager in many of the major Linux distros.

Artengh (talk) 13:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not meant to be an exhaustive list. There are dozens of popular window managers, and keeping the list of alternatives at a maximum of three is the only way to prevent fans of the others from continually adding them on. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

"Linux" or "GNU/Linux"

The operating system described here is known primarily by one of two names: "Linux", and "GNU/Linux". This leads to the further terms "Linux distribution" and "GNU/Linux distribution". Wikipedia has, in the past, used the two interchangeably. Should Wikipedia standardise on one of these terms and use it throughout the project's articlespace? If so, which one?

Previous discussion can be found at the previous RfC. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a misrepresentation of the debate. The disagreement is specifically about operating systems which include both GNU and the Linux kernel. There is no debate about what to call operating systems which include Linux - that topic hasn't even been raised for discussion. Gronky (talk) 23:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It misses some edge cases, but we're not talking about edge cases. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This isn't an edge case issue. You asked a loaded question. Like if people were disagreeing over how to describe the contents of a bag containing apples and pencils and you asked a passer-by "Hey, what should we call the contents of this bag that contains pencils?" You're tainting the input of the Rfc. --Gronky (talk) 00:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I expect you to strike these comments after the relisting, having rewritten the summary in your own words. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll stay in strikeout mode, but'd just note that your paragraph at the start of this section is in your words, not mine. It's better than it was, but pointing to an article that uses "Linux" terminology is still not neutral. --Gronky (talk) 00:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by User:Thumperward (Chris Cunningham)

• My own position has not changed from that of the previous discussion.
  1. As a scientific document, Wikipedia follows scientific convention wherever possible. This means that in general, if an authority (say, a standards organisation, or an official naming body, or whatever) uses a specific term for a subject then Wikipedia uses it.
  2. No such authority exists for operating systems. Historically they have been named by their vendors, who may have a half-dozen contradictory names for their operating systems. In each case, lacking any authority other than the vendor, articles are titled by whatever the vendor currently refers to them as.
  3. Regardless of any supposed normative name for an OS built with GNU components, no authority exists to officially name operating systems using some GNU code. The original plan was for there to be one GNU operating system, called GNU, built with a GNU kernel. Linus Torvalds did not plan to be a part of that operating system ("won't be big and professional like gnu"). The FSF is not an authority in naming operating systems. (see also: aluminium, where an authority exists to name the substance.)
  4. In the absence of an authority which can credibly name the OS, the next best bet is vendors (who generally use "Linux") and popular perception (which is overwhelmingly "Linux"). So as far as picking a name for the article, it has to be "Linux". "GNU/Linux" is just another vendor term. Any other conclusion lends undue weight to a minority position, and any claim to GNU/Linux being normative is POV in absence of any historical or authoritative evidence to the contrary.
  5. This should be applied consistently throughout Wikipedia, in the absence of arguments such as proper names. The official name of the Debian distribution is Debian GNU/Linux. However, it should still be described as a "Linux distribution", as articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects.
• Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• We simply should use Wikipedia policy regarding naming conflict: "Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. By doing this, ideally, we can choose a name in a systematic manner without having to involve ourselves in a political dispute." -- Man with one red shoe (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

  As described above, the relevant guidelines under "Proper nouns" are the subjective criteria, as there is no definitive or authoritative name for the subject. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

  I tend to agree that the guidelines don't seem to help (either side of the argument) much in this case. In that context though, I find it surprising that Chris is able to come to such a incredibly strong position against GNU/Linux (i.e., applied consistently throughout Wikipedia). —mako๛ 13:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

  Last summer, he changed every mention of "GNU/Linux" on Wikipedia to "Linux", and he was editing more than all his critics combined, so no one could stop him. I call this the "edit flood" problem - Wikipedia doesn't have much of a defense against it :-/ --Gronky (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by Mion (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Now Chris is not really open about whats going on, he points to a former Rfc where he should point to the reaon for this Rfc, the page where he couldn't find consensus on GNewSense, see Talk:GNewSense#Articles_are_.2Astill.2A_not_written_from_the_POV_of_their_subjects and several people have pointed out that he is walking the wrong path with his stance on Linux on his userpage. In short GNU/Linux has 16.700.000 hits on Google and for some bogus reasoning we have to remove the mentioning of GNU/Linux from Wikipedia. (We should remove GNU/Linux from Debian). As for productnaming, which it is, the name of the producer is always followed, just like you name a Mitsubishi Outlander V6 like the company names it. and just like we name an Ipod because the maker of the Ipod calls it an Ipod, and the same goes for Debian GNU/Linux. Mion (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is going to change the name of Debian, but at the same time "Linux" is the least common denominator for all distros, you can't call Red Hat a "GNU/Linux distribution", because they call it "Red Hat Linux" not "Red Hat GNU/Linux" Man with one red shoe (talk) 20:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I'm not sure why this is being reopened. Chris should be asking for comments on the article in question, not here. And your Google search results are misleading. By my count GNU/Linux gets 1.3 million and Linux gets over 78 million. And with regards to Debian, it is appropriate to use the term GNU/Linux on the Debian article, but not on Ubuntu, OpenSuse, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Fedora (Linux distribution), etc... —BradV 20:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but nobody requests from us to call Red Hat GNU/Linux, the whole call for consistency is bogus, we dont remove the mentioning of sedan or coupe from carpages because de common denominator is car, its the other way around we mention as much as we know in detail about every product, so on every page Linux stays, the only thing is, we add GNU for the projects that declare that the product is a GNU/Linux product. And for BRAD, try the Dutch Google it seems CA version is filtered [[1]]. Mion (talk) 21:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

If you exclude Wikipedia, Google.nl returns the same results as Google.ca: 1.3 million. The point is that the existing consensus is just fine: We use Linux where appropriate and we use GNU/Linux where appropriate. This is determined by the topic at hand. —BradV 21:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's being reopened because of the furore at talk:gNewSense; the introduction is constantly rewritten to say things like "gNewSense is a GNU/Linux distribution" or "gNewSense is a software product which combines the GNU operating system with the Linux kernel" because this is the POV of the subject. As pointed out in the thread User:Mion linked to, articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects. This is why the North Korea article uses the term "North Korea" throughout even though that isn't the country's official title, and also why articles whose subjects themselves hold that POV, such as Kim Jong-il, also use "North Korea". However, the issue is not only pertinent to gNewSense but to the global use of the "Linux" term on WP. This is the most central place to come up with a project-wide consensus. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It is proper to refer to gNewSense as a GNU/Linux distribution, because that is what the official website says. But this has nothing to do with North Korea. It's all about what are people most likely to be looking for. —BradV 21:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects. Should the Gene Ray article begin with "Gene Ray is a Doctor of Cubism" because this is what Ray styles himself? No. It may be appropriate to describe what Ray titles himself as (and this is what the article does), but one does not use it as a normative description. It confuses the issue, because then half the articles on WP use one naming convention and half the other. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

So is that the reason for the RfC? You are wondering whether we should call gNewSense a GNU/Linux distribution or a Linux distribution? —BradV 21:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

That's merely the latest incarnation of the conflict. Identical situations have popped up on hundreds of articles over the years. The RfC is for whether or not articles should get to pick and choose whether which term to use based on the POV of their subjects. In addition, after a comment Jimbo made on the issue, a couple of editors saw fit to deem this to be an "official" overturning of previous discussion. So it's worth hashing back out. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by Gronky (talk)

• The reason an operating system exists today is because the GNU project decided to do whatever work was needed to make an operating system exist. Other parts of the operating system, like the Linux kernel and the X Window System were just isolated projects that, by chance, contributed to making an operating system.
• Linus acknowledges that "a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you need a shell, compilers, a library etc. [...] Most of the tools used with linux are GNU software" (kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01)
• Research David A. Wheeler notes: "the total of the GNU project's code is much larger than the Linux kernel's size. Thus, by comparing the total contributed effort, it's certainly justifiable to call the entire system GNU/Linux and not just Linux."[2]
• For programmers, the system is defined by it's application programming interfaces, and they're GNU libraries, not kernel APIs
• For users, you could swap out the kernel and the user wouldn't notice. Other kernels such as the FreeBSD or OpenSolaris kernels suffice. However, you can't swap out the GNU parts because there are no replacements. GNU is the essential part of the operating system.
• The name GNU/Linux is used by most big vendors of the operating system:
  • Mandriva, in their "About Mandriva" PR boilerplate, say "The company offers its enterprise, government and educational customers a complete range of GNU/Linux and Open Source software and related services."[3] Plus see [4] and their wiki
  • Sun Microsystems talk about "Sun's GNU/Linux offerings"[5]
  • Fedora steering Committee members [6]
  • Debian GNU/Linux and Knoppix GNU/Linux, obviously
  • more to come

How do any of these points establish that "GNU/Linux" is a normative term? The Free Software Foundation demands that XEmacs be referred to as "GNU XEmacs" for the same reason. Is the Free Software Foundation a naming authority for all GNU-derived code? If, in fact, it is a political rather than normative term, and the Free Software Foundation has no authority nor legal ground to demand attribution from the name of code derived partially from its copyright, why is Wikipedia beholden to use it regularly despite our common-name policies, when we do not use People's Democratic Republic of Korea throughout the encyclopedia? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mention FSF, I didn't use any fsf.org or gnu.org links to make my points, and I didn't say it's political. We're miscommunicating. I said "GNU/Linux" is representative of the object described, it's historically accurate, and it's acknowledged in quite official ways by most large organisations who contribute to the OS. --Gronky (talk) 01:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You didn't answer the question. Regardless of how many vendors independently use the term, how does this establish the FSF's naming convention as normative? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If common usage - and acknowledgement of it's validity by some of those who don't use it - doesn't satisfy you, you'll have to explain your criteria better and why those criteria are required by Wikipedia. --Gronky (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

We use the most common name. Relatively speaking, GNU/Linux is uncommonly used. There can be some weighting of sources, yes, but when none of them are authorities (and when there are high-profile examples of vendors which do not use the term, including the original author of the kernel) no argument can be made for overriding the majority term on the basis of authority. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

At WP we are all happy to use the common name for something where this does not create a disambiguation problem. But no one is suggesting that Hoover be used for vacuum cleaner. The workers at the factory use Mercedes for the cars and trucks they make but here at WP we properly find the article is called Mercedes-Benz. There are many, many other examples where the common name for something is *not* used at WP as the article name. See car. Paul Beardsell (talk) 23:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"Vacuum cleaner" is more used than "hoover" as far as I know, "Hoover" is also a surname and name of company, also a name of a American punk rock band... Mercedez-Benz is the name of the company, there's a clear authority that established that, there's no clear authority for naming Linux or GNU/Linux. Car page is full of disambiguation links, it's almost an article. Moreover, even I spent some time to refute the examples you brought from Wikipedia, in fact examples from Wikipedia are pretty much irrelevant, Wikipedia not being a reliable source cannot be used as a source or as an argumentation for other articles or content in Wikipedia. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 00:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Position by Benjamin Mako Hill

Whether we like it or not, this discussion is highly politicized and the current status quo -- implemented it seems almost entirely by one person -- strongly serves (in effect if not in intent) a political agenda.

Of course, that might all still be OK if, in the process, it served the purpose of clarifying a situation and keeping people from being confused. But I don't see that happening either.

This issue is highly divisive both on Wikipedia and in the general public. More importantly, the use of either "GNU/Linux," "Linux," or "GNU/Linux" does not seem to confuse people in my unscientific tests -- including those unfamiliar with the subject. As others have pointed out, there are places where, for a variety of reasons, either term might be more appropriate. I think that the conclusion that Thumperward has come to that this should be implemented throughout Wikipedia is absolutely unsupportable, distracting, counterproductive, and offers very little concrete benefit.

On top of that, the term Linux for the operating systems is, in one very important sense, very confusing in that it confuses the kernel and OS. Calling the OS a "GNU/Linux", a "Linux distribution", a "GNU/Linux distribution", etc. would go a long way to clearing this up.

Wikipedia is not a popularity contest. Our job is to inform and choose the most accurate names -- not regurgitate confusing and accurate public misconceptions. Now, even if you don't agree that this is the case here -- and I would like to keep these arguments separate -- the argument for the pan-Wikipedia anti-GNU/Linux campaign we've seen seems wholly unjustified and inappropriate. —mako๛ 14:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you therefore believe that Wikipedia should take no position on the use of the terminology? Does this mean that you believe the articles should (a) use the two terms completely interchangeably, as with British and American English; (b) use the term preferred by the subject of the article; or (c) use the term favoured by the current editor? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As long as it can be done in a way that is clear (i.e., introducing and linking both terms when first used in an article), I'm happy with (a). That said, I would be happy with (b) as well.

We've got a highly politicized fight going on here between people with stated personal positions in favor and against the people and institutions at the heart of the larger debate. I do not believe that is currently possible for the people currently debating to come to consensus on the use of one term, throughout Wikipedia, that is in the interests of neutrality. What this article should be named and how it should be introduced is a separate matter. —mako๛ 14:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Mako that the issue here is that one POV pushing side (consisting mainly of one person) has pursued their agenda repeatedly in Wikipedia, without regard to the consensus of other editors. Like Mako, I am happy with (a) "use the two terms completely interchangeable, as with British and American English". I am not happy with POV-pushing and ignoring real complaints about the confusion introduced by one side in this debate. There are contexts in which casually referring to "Linux" as the operating system can be appropriate.... and many more contexts where it is confusing and not appropriate. Taking a "google vote" is misleading in a number of ways, not least of which is that there is no way to sort out which of those references are for the kernel itself. The "vendors don't use it in their brand names" argument strikes me as completely invalid as well, it is like saying we can't call soft drinks "soft drinks" because each of the individual vendors like "Coke" and "Pepsi" don't include the term in their brand names. (This may not be the best analogy, but it should not be hard to construct dozens of similar analogies.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Google "vote" is misleading, but this is the term used by media and this is the term used by most of the people. Who decides in this case what is the "right" name, isn't the use of it? It seems to me that choosing the less used variant to promote some ideals is simply POV pushing, while choosing the other variant that's not used for political reasons and is used by most of the people it should be norm. But if you make a ruling that Wikipedia is about pushing ideals then it will be fine with everybody (just trying to make a joke). man with one red shoe (talk) 12:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to again contest the idea that this was unilateral or forced action. At every stage, I've invested considerable time and effort in bringing this to discussion and using Wikipedia's formal resolution steps to encourage progress on the issue.

As for the arguments about a "google vote" or such, I can't imagine that anyone would argue that the terms are in equal common usage, or that the presence of vendors who use the "GNU/Linux" term indicates any sort of authority behind it (not least because of the presence of at least an equal number of vendors who don't use the term, including the Linux Foundation itself). The use of "Linux" is not "casual", as this implies an authority behind "GNU/Linux" which does not exist. Thus, no claims of "accuracy" in the other term carry any weight. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say that calling the attempt at consistency based on our policy of using the term which is most commonly used around the world 'POV pushing' is a bit far. That implies that there is bad faith editing, which I haven't seen, and I've been on and off involved in this whole debacle for quite a while. The issue remains that there is no consensus either way really, and the idea of introducing consistency, in my opinion, was a good one.

One major thing here is that this still doesn't help us decide on the key issue - what the article about the operating system named most commonly 'Linux' should be called.

And as Chris says, there is no authority on this issue, as the 2 sides, namely the FSF/GNU foundation and Linus Torvalds both could be seen as authority.-Localzuk^(talk) 19:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree there's no consensus, but I don't see how you can then argue for exclusive use of one term (and then choosing the most confusing/inaccurate of the two terms). --Gronky (talk) 19:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

One more comment on Jimbo's post. To expand on your example, if Coke fans would constantly and ceaselessly demand on Wikipedia to call Pepsi "Coke/Pepsi" how would you think about that? Or to call cola "Coke/drink" because that's the "correct" name (to give credit to company who invented the drink), how would you feel about that? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

This user (man with one red shoe) obviously ignores (or wants to ignore) that the statements given by Jimmy Wales and members of the board have policy status. This is written in the Wikipedia Policies and Guidelines WP:PG. They are a source of wikipedia policy. If they say wikipedia has to use the names interchangeably then it has to be done like that. That is what a policy is for. It has to be followed by wikipedia editors. --Grandscribe (talk) 01:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Position by Deep Alexander

It's not GNU/Linux. It's Linux.

No matter how you see it you can't name it GNU/Linux. GNU did not create Linux so any GNU in Linux should be in the form of Linux/GNU. And can you use GNU as a source on calling Linux GNU? isn't their opinion on the whole too biased to be facts? It should be immediately corrected! --Deep Alexander (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"The GNU contribution is the basis for the alternative name GNU/Linux." should say that the alternative name is Linux/GNU but that GNU prefers the GNU/Linux naming.

For the sake of sanity, correct --Deep Alexander (talk) 00:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

GNU, the FSF and Debian call it GNU/Linux. Ubuntu, Novell, IBM, Red Hat, Sun and Linus Torvalds call it just Linux. Who calls it Linux/GNU?? —BradV 00:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ubuntu and Sun call it both "Linux" and GNU/Linux" at different times. To illustrate the point, here's an example of a joint Canonical-Sun press release with GNU/Linux on the top line! Ubuntu's position is to not privilege one term over the other by using either term or, where possible, both. To reduce confusion, Ubuntu also tries to avoid the awkwardness by simply just referring to the OS as Ubuntu and not as Ubuntu Linux or Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Ubuntu also tries to call itself a "Linux distribution" or a "GNU/Linux distribution" which is more clear. In fact, Ubuntu moved away from its initial domain in part to avoid becoming a "Linux." This non-dogmatic approach is precisely what I'm advocating on Wikipedia and the only approach I think makes sense for an encyclopedia. —mako๛ 01:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not everytime the majority is correct, no matter how you look at it. calling it GNU/Linux could be a academical error.

If it's Linux + GNU it should be Linux/GNU.--Deep Alexander (talk) 00:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That argument sounds a lot like original research. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, though. If you can find a reliable source it can be put in the article. —BradV 00:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Unfortunately, unless you can provide references, you're not going to get a consensus for Linux/GNU. Even if it's factually correct, there is also a case for WP:COMMONNAME as GNU/Linux appears to be the name most commonly used. But start by finding references to lend weight to your argument to show it's not original research. Bardcom (talk) 00:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe GNU/Linux should prevail over Linux/GNU for three reasons: (1) It is the more common term based on a google search of "GNU/Linux" and "Linux/GNU", (2) It is the prefered term on the GNU Pproject web site and the only form referenced in the linux.org FAQ, and (3) all other things being equal, it has been the term historically used in this article since its creation. —-- Tcncv (talk) 03:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Just because it's been used since the dawn of creation does not mean it's correct. GNU/Linux would imply that it's GNU who made Linux, or that it's their version of Linux.

If their name have to be in Linux it should be at Linux/GNU since it's Linux with GNU, not GNU with Linux.

Heh, maybe we should start saying the earth is flat again too --85.11.214.226 (talk) 12:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No. "GNU Linux" would imply that GNU made Linux. "GNU/Linux" intends to imply that this is a modified version of GNU, specifically, this is the "Linux" version. Another form Stallman has used in the last 5 or so years is "GNU+Linux". --Gronky (talk) 12:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Except that this isn't a Linux version of GNU, it's Linux and GNU. --Deep Alexander (talk) 19:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The components of GNU/Linux (or if you are pathologically unable to use the term "GNU", the "Linux operating system") were largely made under the GNU banner. What Linus Torvalds contributed was the kernel of the operating system. The term "Linux" is now used popularly to refer either to the kernel or to the operating system. This is determined by context or it must be done explicitly. Chris Cunningham is attempting to make the default meaning of "Linux" to be the operating system, unambiguously. That will have the effect of forcing everyone to refer to operating system's kernel as the "Linux kernel", where previously, from context, Linux would have sufficed. Paul Beardsell (talk) 23:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Position by Grandscribe (talk)

• Comment: These edits are the user's sole contributions to Wikipedia. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Reply: I found the discussion was requesting for comments. So I decided to participate. Is it reserved only for users having more contributions?.--Grandscribe (talk) 17:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is what some specialized books say about the topic in discussion.

• In truth, from its adoption as an operating system, the rightful name of Linux is really GNU/Linux. Linux is really only the kernel (the core component) and GNU contains the supporting applications around the kernel that make it functional. These supporting applications include the user interface and all other applications.
  

GNU Debian Bible by Steve Hunger Hungry Minds Inc. 2001

• As we have mentioned, Linux is just a kernel. You can obtain the sources for the kernel to compile and install it on a machine and then obtain and install many other freely distributed software programs to make a complete installation. These installations consist of much more than just the kernel. Most of the utilities come from the GNU Project of the Free Software Foundation.
  

Beginning Linux Programming by Neil Matthew and Richard Stones (Paperback - Nov 5, 2007)

• Strictly speaking, after all, the term Linux refers to only the kernel.
  

Linux kernel development second edition 2005 Pearson Education Inc.

Grandscribe (talk) 11:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are some examples that show that GNU/Linux is used by SUN, IBM and Red Hat. The text comes from their websites:

---

Sun's GNU/Linux Offerings

Sun brings a comprehensive systems approach to GNU/Linux-based operating systems. Sun is one of the largest contributors to the GNU/Linux operating system.

http://www.sun.com/software/linux/index.xml

---

Chapter 16. The GNU Project and GNU/Linux

The GNU Project was launched in 1984 to develop a complete Unix-like operating system which is free software: the GNU system. (GNU is a recursive acronym for "GNU's Not Unix"; it is pronounced "guh-NEW".) Variants of the GNU operating system, which use the kernel Linux, are now widely used; though these systems are often referred to as "Linux", they are more accurately called GNU/Linux systems.

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-3-Manual/gcc/gnu-project.html

---

IBM website search function shows 794 documents on its website using GNU/Linux to refer to the system.

http://www.ibm.com

---

Grandscribe (talk) 02:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The following explains the role of GNU in making Linux possible. These are the statements of Linus Torvalds. This is the extracted text of an interview Linus Torvalds gave for the 2001 docummentary Revolution OS:

Linus Torvalds:

There's alot of these programs uh...done by the Free Software Foundation and done by other people like Linux and there's a symbiosis between Linux*(he refers to the kernel) and the programs so the programs run on Linux*(the kernel) and at the same time they take advantage of Linux* as a platform while Linux* takes advantage of the programs by just being able to use them.

Interviewer:

what programs?

Linus Torvalds:

Uhmm... the main one is actually the GNU C Compiler which without a C compiler it would not have been possible to make Linux* or most of the open programs available.

Note: The asterisk was added to point to the fact that Torvalds is clearly referring to the kernel.

Grandscribe (talk) 13:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

So... every program that's compiled with GNU C Compiles should be called GNU/programname? It's one thing to acknowledge the importance of GCC and another to change the name of a program or operating system in order to "give credit". The importance of GNU, GCC, GPL and of software freedom fighters is a red herring in this discussion because (no matter how RMS tries) nobody can make a case to name something to "give credit", there's simply no such thing in the world... on the other hand let me go and change my Edison/lightbulb and reboot my von Newman/Turing/computer -- Man with one red shoe (talk) 14:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone suggested that. GCC is just one of the core contributions of GNU to the GNU/Linux operating system. The above quote just confirms that Linus acknowledges the importance of the GNU contribution (particularly GCC). --Gronky (talk) 14:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Acknowledging the contribution does not mean agreeing with the naming convention which supposes that subjects are named according to who contributed to them. Using a cherry-picked quote from Revolution OS to give that impression is disingenuous in the extreme, considering that elsewhere in that work Torvalds specifically states that he believes the FSF's position to be ridiculous. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, Linus acknowledge the importance of gcc... so? This is open source, you know, "building on shoulders of giants" and all that crap, but that doesn't imply that you have to use a naming convention that gives credit to the code you used (other than what's specified in the license). Man with one red shoe (talk) 16:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That interview extract was in response to someone above who said that GNU had no role in the making of Linux. I did not add any comment for this interview extract suggesting that this was the basis for calling the system GNU/Linux. The Linux kernel had no GNU code when it was made(as far as I know) so it is ok to call it Linux even it the GNU C compiler was used to make it . The problem occurs when you take that specific kernel "Linux" and mix it with other software packages required to have a complete and useful operating system. If the main bulk of those essential packages come from the GNU project as the written sources I have shown state, what is the problem to say it is a GNU/Linux system? And since there are some who dispute that then why not use the two terms? Then we would be giving the two equal and fair treatment.--Grandscribe (talk) 17:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand why you added that quote, as for the argument of using GNU packages you need to use GNU name is not relevant I think, first of all we use the current name used by virtually anybody, almost nobody in mainstream press uses "GNU/Linux" CNN and NBC and NYTimes and WallStreet Journal use "Linux", a Google search bring 30 times more results for Linux, in addition the GNU/Linux results are not from official sources are mostly from blogs that usually are not even used as references here on Wikipedia. Another point goes like this: in free software world everybody uses code from everybody, if there would be a naming convention to use the name of the sources you use that would be hell and very annoying too. Another thing, kernel is the OS, I mean when you use a computer how much time you use the kernel and how much time you use a compiler? (even if you are programmer) Man with one red shoe (talk) 18:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you name any serious author that declares that the use of the name GNU/Linux is wrong and should NOT be used at all and every mention deleted from this Encyclopedia? The problem is very clear and concrete. It's a naming conflict between those who agree to use GNU/Linux and those who think that this name should not appear at all in wikipedida and use only the word Linux to refer to the kernel and to the complete system. Did I read wrong or according to some users the ultimate goal is to delete, redirect or merge all articles that carry the words GNU/Linux? Honestly it can be perceived that some users are too emotionally attached to their anti GNU/Linux positions and use unnecessary pejorative adjectives towards the comments that do not necessarily support their opinion. Let's try to be objective. --Grandscribe (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The reason for the "purge" (as it is framed) was clearly explained, discussed and justified by the primary reason for it: consistency. Furthermore, the suggesting that those arguing for it are "too emotionally attached to their anti GNU/Linux positions" is just psychological projection. There has been no honest arguemnt which suggests that arguing against the term "GNU/Linux" is driven by dogma, while there is a strong argument that the other party is primarily driven by such (the term is an explicit political frame). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Who said that those against GNU/Linux are driven by dogma?. A good suggestion is to avoid the use of pejorative adjectives and dismissive remarks towards those who agree with the use of GNU/Linux. The discussion should be based on concrete and objective arguments. In regards to "consistency" it was based on a previous RFC where only 3 users voted to purge GNU/Linux from wikipedia.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC) .

Position by User:KimDabelsteinPetersen (Kim Dabelstein Petersen)

First a little background: I've been in the Unix business since the early 1980's, i've programmed for and administrated Unix boxes ever since, with some brief leaps into embedded programming (again Unix). I started using GNU utilities since they first arrived on tapes in the 80's. My friends would say that i'm a GNU/Linux/GPL advocate. I run a small consultancy company called LiGnus.

Now for my take (first some observations):

• Linux is the kernel.
• GNU is important in the open-source movement.
• Linux got its first distribution with the help of GNU.
• GNU is not dependent on Linux.
• Linux is not dependent on GNU.
• There are a lot of different Linux distributions.
• Distributions are not always based on GNU.

The FSF would very much like to have the Linux systems called GNU/Linux, and i sympathize with this. But that is not the reality. The reality is that the World in general calls the various Linux derived distributions "Linux" - so per WP:COMMONNAME Wikipedia should reflect this. If a specific distribution calls itself GNU/Linux then this should be reflected in the articles about it, but not to the extent where every instance of Linux is exchanged with GNU/Linux.

A Linux operating system, at the very lowest level, need not be more than:

1. A bootstrap
2. The Linux kernel
3. Init (process 0) could really be exchanged with a program directly but commonly isn't
4. A program or more

None of which need be GNU derived - and in the embedded world commonly aren't.

Summary

Linux is name the world recognizes these kinds of systems by - thus per WP:COMMONNAME this is the way it should be described in Wikipedia. There is no requirement (or even real-world de-facto requirement) that Linux needs (or consists) of GNU software. So even by this standard we can't say that the name is required.

I personally like GNU/Linux - but Wikipedia should refer to it as Linux. --Kim D. Petersen (talk)

WP:COMMONNAME is for page titles which is not the case here. Mion (talk) 19:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Then refer to WP:COMMON, since what we have here is pretty much the same arguments as for page-titles. As said - i sympathize with the argument for GNU/Linux - but face the reality, which is that my Mother, my friends, my Boss, my Colleagues, the Press, my Bird.... :-) all recognize it as "Linux". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

consider the option to enlighten them by providing information instead of removing it. Mion (talk) 19:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That would be advocacy, and as such has no place on Wikipedia. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the argument about the minimal Linux system with just bootloader, kernel, init, and a program is not relevant here. Yes, you can make toy systems, research projects, and things that are described on embedded Linux, but this article is not about all systems which include the Linux kernel, this article is about Unix-like desktop and server operating systems that include the Linux kernel - and those always include GNU (more GNU than Linux). --Gronky (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is about Linux in all of its many incarnations. And the embedded distributions are just as relevant as the Desktop ones, and i suspect that they represent quite a significant portion of installed Linux' systems in general. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The first line of the article says the article is about the Unix-like operating system. If someone wants to collect info about all incarnations of a particular piece of software, that should go on a hobbyist site or project homepage, not an encyclopedia. This article is about operating systems to which GNU is a larger contributor than the Linux kernel is. --Gronky (talk) 09:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What ever makes you think that µClinux,OpenEmbedded, OpenMoko or Qtopia aren't a Unix-like operating system or even less than full-fledged Linux's? And sorry to break your bubble - but these are professional Linux distributions, which have implementations in the millions. (hint: this is not a hobby thing).

And i'm sorry GNU is not necessary - its nice to have though. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree that those systems are like Unix, but either way, the first two clearly fall into the topic of the embedded linux article, and the second two both use GNU libc and other GNU software. I think you're making my point for me. --Gronky (talk) 12:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but there is no difference between Linux in an Embedded system or Linux on a desktop - except for usage patterns.

OpenEmbedded and OpenMoko both provide the option of using µClibc or dietlibc as well as static linking - so gLibc is not a requirement (i presume the same is the case for Qtopia). What exactly do you think is the difference between OpenEmbedded and OpenMoko? (Hint: OpenMoko is OpenEmbedded with more programs).

I suspect that you think that you need to have a GUI, to be a Linux or Unix system - but that is extremely wrong. X is a rather new addition, and neither embedded systems nor servers need it. (and in many cases do not install it). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Kim D. said: There is no requirement (or even real-world de-facto requirement) that Linux needs (or consists) of GNU software. So even by this standard we can't say that the name is required.

With due respect Kim D. one question: Are any of the distributions (Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, Fedora, etc. for which the system is acclaimed distributed without GNU software?? Is any popular distro shipped without GNU software? Are you speaking of just the kernel? --Grandscribe (talk) 22:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Possibly (even probably) not. But name me one essential system component which needs to be GNU, to make a Linux desktop/server system? (gcc is not necessary - but a wise choice). That distributions contain GNU today is by choice (and a good one) - not by necessity. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I would definitely say that this article is about all systems which include the Linux kernel. Regardless, the name "Linux" has been adopted as a name for both the operating system and it's kernel (so, despite what some people assert, "Linux" does not strictly mean the kernel). GNU/Linux distributions are definitely a subset of Linux distributions so they could not be used as a drop-in for Linux. If it's change to GNU/Linux it changes what it covers and really only makes it less organized. Mike92591 (talk) 00:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this article is about the Unix-like subset of Linux-based operating systems. It's in the first line. Other Linux-based systems, such as embedded systems, have their own articles such as embedded linux. For Unix-like Linux-based operating systems, GNU is a larger, earlier, and harder to replace contribution than the Linux kernel is. --Gronky (talk) 09:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As mentioned above - Embedded Linux's are Unix-like Linux-based operating systems. GNU can be replaced - and it will still be a Linux system, but replace the kernel and it isn't a Linux. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No one has made a GNU-less system that users or developers would think was the usual "Linux" they know. On the other hand, if you take Debian and replace the Linux kernel with the kernel of OpenSolaris or FreeBSD, users and developers would still see it as the they they call "Linux" (or what they call "GNU/Linux"). --Gronky (talk) 12:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty silly, I for one I know it's not Linux, on the other hand if users name Linux any KDE or GNOME system then your argument lacks power too, obviously KDE runs very well on BSD and that's not even GNU so it looks like this is the best proof that GNU is not needed either for a "Linux" system. But of course that is based on a silly assumption that users wouldn't figure that out, which is like saying that if you paint a big cat with stripes people won't figure it's not a tiger... not a good argument for claiming that cats are tigers. Not very encyclopedic either... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

(Since I offered a hypothetical situation and you reply "I know it's...", I wonder if there's a misundertanding, but anyway...) Unless you were told to check if the system was using a Linux kernel, I would be very surprised if you noticed the difference between Debian GNU/Linux and Debian/KFreeBSD. The only difference is the kernel. Even a programmer wouldn't notice the difference. Command line users wouldn't notice the difference (unless they did a specific check, with uname or whatever). --Gronky (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's like saying "if you don't use the future you won't know you are missing", well, duh! Once you add a hard drive, a camera or a wireless card you'd know the difference, configuring interfaces also is different. If you don't look for exhaust pipe sometimes is difficult to figure out if the car is electrical or with a combustion engine, so? Also if you change KDE/Gnome theme to match the Windows XP theme many people will take a long time to figure out it's not Windows, it's still an OS, that has not been used as an argument for calling Windows or Linux in a different way, they just can look the same.... but one is Linux and the other remains Windows even if they "look" the same. But anyway, let's consider my example, if you see KDE on BSD you would assume is GNU/Linux, right? Does that mean that GNU is irrelevant? Since there's no GNU and there's no Linux... Looks alone can be deceiving. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 13:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand you say(Kim D) that GNU components are NOT essential. Please tell then the name of a distribution that does not contain GNU software? Since you say it is not essential to have GNU software there must be a lot of "Linux desktop/server" distributions that do not contain any GNU software. Why install unnecessary GNU software?? And if there are distributions that contain GNU software as their main components why can't the wikipedia articles that talk about those GNU packaged distributions use the term GNU/Linux?--Grandscribe (talk) 09:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood the Unix philosophy. Choice is the key, you don't just distribute Bash, you distribute ash, ksh, tcsh etc. so that the user has the choice of his favorite flavor. If you want to go to higher level, then its Gnome, Xfce, KDE.... Afaik, no major distribution tries to limit you as to your personal preferences. Therefore almost all distributions have most GNU components - but almost all also have alternatives. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand you quite well. You say that GNU software is NOT essential yet there are operating systems that use GNU software and do not use the kernel Linux example: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD , a very complete and usable system. Can you name a complete and usable system that contains the kernel Linux and does not contain the so called "non-essential" GNU software? Is there one such distribution? If it really exists I'd like to try it.--Grandscribe (talk) 13:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me Kim D just one more question.

Above you said:

A Linux operating system, at the very lowest level, need not be more than: 1.A bootstrap 2.The Linux kernel 3.Init (process 0) could really be exchanged with a program directly but commonly isn't 4.A program or more
None of which need be GNU derived - and in the embedded world commonly aren't.

Can you explain me what I can do with an installation like that? what is it useful for? Is that an operating system for a computer?--Grandscribe (talk) 13:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It [program instead of init] (was) not uncommon in situations where you have a program that starts/controls everything else - for instance in a gadget where tight control over the system is needed. Case 4: Think Kiosk systems, X-terminals, diagnostics, dedicated firewalls etc. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Linux systems such as the Wrt54 or the Synology DS107 (two systems i run at home) run busybox (very common) for the core utilities (shell, etc), and have little to no GNU components at all. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As a sidenote - its exactly because these are full Linux systems that i use them. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Writtenonsand

My "layperson's" take on this --
From linux.org, which presumably has some weight in this conversation --

- "What Is Linux?" - http://www.linux.org/info/index.html

- The History of Linux / Timeline - http://www.linux.org/info/linux_timeline.html

1991
December Robert Blum posts the first Linux FAQ
September Version 0.01 of Torvald's project is made available via ftp.funet.fi. Ari Lemmke, the systems administrator, gives the directory the name Linux.
August Linus Torvalds announces that he's working on an operating system similar to Minix.
June Version 2 of the GNU General Public License (GPL) is released.

- FAQ - http://www.linux.org/info/faq1.html#faq.q10

What does GNU/Linux refer to?
GNU/Linux is the name Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation and the GNU project, and its supporters prefer over just Linux. They cite the fact that Linux could not have come into being without tools from the GNU project. Though this is true, use and custom has favored just Linux over GNU/Linux in the public consciousness. This website's use of the term Linux in no way tries to minimize the contributions of the Free Software Foundation. We feel that it's easier for people to identify the operating system by that simpler name and in the end, that helps in its adoption.

May I also suggest taking a look at a few reputable general-purpose dictionaries? (IMHO the logical resource for questions of correct usage.) The ones I've looked at have "Linux" and don't have "GNU/Linux". -- Writtenonsand (talk) 19:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have checked and not even the word Linux is there. A general purpose dictionary is not the best place to look for technical terms. Shouldn't one better look at a dictionary of technical terms for the computer field? Or even compare with another Encyclopedia? Can you name which dictionary you are using? Do you want to settle this argument by just using a simple every day language dictionary?--Grandscribe (talk) 09:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

- http://www.bartleby.com/61/1/L0190150.html - From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition, an excellent general-purpse dictionary.

A general purpose dictionary is not the best place to look for technical terms. My point exactly. It's the best place to look for "general usage, free from jargon and technical quibbles."

Wikipedia:Make_technical_articles_accessible, from the Wikipedia Manual of Style, says

"Articles in Wikipedia should be accessible to the widest possible audience. For most articles, this means accessible to a general audience.

Every reasonable attempt should be made to ensure that material is presented in the most widely accessible manner possible. If an article is written in a highly technical manner, but the material permits a more accessible explanation, then editors are strongly encouraged to rewrite it."

"Do you want to settle this argument by just using a simple every day language dictionary?" In the absence of any compelling reason to do otherwise (which is what we're attempting to discover here), and if we find that there is a consensus on this among several reputable dictionaries, it seems to me that that's the logical thing to do, yes. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 23:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Bradv

The current consensus is that we commonly refer to the operating system as Linux, but that an alternative name exists, and is advocated by some. We even have an article on it: GNU/Linux naming controversy. This consensus is as a result of past discussions on this topic, and no new information has been presented as to why this consensus needs to be change.

If and when GNU/Linux becomes the more common name in the media the articles on Wikipedia will need to change to reflect the common name of the subject. The idea that we need to change in order to spread the "more correct" name, while suggested with the best of intentions, is not what Wikipedia is for.

To further expand on this, discussions on which name is more "correct" are kind of irrelevant. We can establish quite easily that the terms "Linux distribution" and "GNU/Linux distribution" refer to the same thing, and are used interchangeably by software vendors and the media. Between these two options, Linux is the more popular term, therefore Linux is the term to be preferred in Wikipedia, with honorable mention given to GNU/Linux where appropriate. —BradV 19:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The consensus mentioned in your first paragraph is actually just the single-handed work of User:Thumperward last Summer/Autumn. He changed all mentions of "GNU/Linux" on Wikipedia to "Linux". It's unfortunate that this tactic seems to have worked. --Gronky (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually the consensus is as a result of the previous RfC. —BradV 21:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The result of that RfC was:

• GNU/Linux: User:Mms, User:Gronky
• Linux: User:Thumperward, User:AdrianTM, User:Localzuk
• Unclear/inconsistent: User:Sakurambo, User:80.233.255.7, User:Liquidat (although I guess Liquidat intended to support "Linux")

IIRC, it was at the end of another long debate on the same subject, which is probably why participation was poor (I only made one comment). So I wouldn't call those numbers "consensus". --Gronky (talk) 21:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Is that the definition of consensus in Wikipedia? Because 3 ordinary users voted for the word Linux entire articles have been deleted, merged or redirected??? Amazing!!! --Grandscribe (talk) 09:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That is very weak consensus and, IMHO, should have been called undecided. In any case, we have the option of not taking a position on this issue which, given the results of the previous RfC, is what I think should have happened. —mako๛ 13:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC) (Originally posted as 69.203.79.242 (talk) 13:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC))

Consensus != voting majority. If the arguments of one side were significantly stronger than the others, then consensus can be claimed due to lack of input/arguments. Going by numbers is simply misleading.-Localzuk^(talk) 19:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:AVRS

Because of the confusion on what an operating system is, I sometimes say:

• “platforms, like GNU/Linux”
• “platforms, like GNU/Linux/X11”
• “for the GNU/Linux platform”
• “is a GNU/Linux-based operating system”
• “is an operating system based on GNU and Linux”
• “software platform” instead of “operating system”
• “uses a Linux-based operating system” for devices that use Linux without or with very little of the GNU stuff, or where it is unknown if there is GNU stuff at all. --AVRS (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • BTW, that phrase is also better than “the Linux operating system” for GNU/Linux-based systems. Just watch out for BSD and other UNIX and UNIX-like platform. --AVRS (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

A 3-DVD Linux distribution? That reminds me of the Bitstream Vera font licence. --AVRS (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Some said they have never seen “/” used as “and” and not “or” or “divided by”. But look at “TCP/IP” — it is close to “GNU/Linux”, and is in the same order (not as “Linux/GNU”).

See also The linux-kernel mailing list FAQ.

The confusion also leads to statements close to “Linux Torvalds started the open source movement” or even “freeware movement” (usually easy to notice in Russian, but not in English, where the word “free” is used).

And then people disambiguate the phrase “Linus Torvalds, the creator of [[Linux]]” to “Linus Torvalds, the creator of [[GNU/Linux|Linux]]”. Not sure how intentional that was, since it was a “Robot-assisted disambiguation”, but it stayed there for 2 years.

A software shop has put FreeBSD into its “Operating systems/Linux” section.[7] Frankly, it is a subsection of “Multimedia”, and also contains Mandriva, Linux XP and OpenOffice.org. But that OpenOffice.org is for “Linux and Windows”. --AVRS (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

--AVRS (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

One could equally argue that using the term "Linux" for the OS and using the term "Linux kernel" where disambiguation is needed also resolves ambiguity. This is certainly commonplace in real life. TCP/IP is not comparable because that name stems from an authority, where none exists in this case. Regardless, the point is that WP policy dictates that we use the more common real-world usage, rather than attempting to prescribe "correct" names for subjects where none exist. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It is logical to assume that, by creating the “Linux kernel”, LT has created the “Linux” OS. I bring TCP/IP up as an example of the spelling of a 2-word, slash-separated name. --AVRS (talk) 21:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, all those claims are false, Linus didn't start any movement, he wrote a kernel and open sourced it, yes the kernel can be used as a very good example of open source development, but that's about it. The problem here is not the name used, the problem is that the claims are not well sourced (and are false from what I see). man with one red shoe (talk) 20:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

They are false. People make them because:

1. Linus has created “Linux” (the kernel).
2. “Linux” (so called; the OS) is the most well-known piece of “free software”.

--AVRS (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but I still fail to see the relevance, this is an example of bad editing, it has nothing to do with the name of the OS. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Man with the red shoe,
When you say Torvalds "open sourced" the kernel Linux do you mean he GPL'd it? Do we also have to omit that Linux is under the GNU General Public License? Is there any license called "open source"? Was the development method he used for the kernel Linux called in 1991 "open source development method"? Wasn't this form of cooperation known under any other name?--Grandscribe (talk) 09:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Since you asked me that, do you think that a program has to take it's name from its license? It's important because if that's true I WOULD NEVER release my program under GPL. Linus released the kernel at the first time under a (open source) license that didn't allow for commercial usage, however he corrected the problem by releasing subsequent versions of the kernel under GPLv2. So? Open source is not a license, it's a way to do developing, by the way there are many licenses that allow for the code to be used in a open manner, GNU GPL doesn't hold the monopoly of free or open. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Who said GNU GPL holds a monopoly?--Grandscribe (talk) 02:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody, I just wanted to make sure nobody on this page has the impression that GPL is the only open source license and that the kernel was not using GPL initially, if you already knew that -- very well I won't repeat it. Of course we have to mention the license of the kernel, what kind of question is that? Only that the discussion here was about name not about the license of the kernel. man with one red shoe (talk) 02:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Linux and GNU

Why are there two separate articles on GNU and Linux? First and foremost, the operating system is either GNU (the original version of the operating system, using GNU HURD v0.2 or lower), or GNU/Linux, which is the GNU operating system (same system from what I know), only instead of GNU HURD, it uses the Linux kernel. There is no operating system called Linux. Linux is not an operating system, but the kernel GNU used because the developers of GNU HURD made the kernel more complicated than it should have been, and they looked for a "fully finished" (even though everything is a work in progress, I don't have a better term to use). I propose that Linux should redirect to Linux kernel, and that the current article Linux should be moved to GNU/Linux, OR that Linux kernel should be a redirect to Linux and the contents of the Linux article be changed to the current content of the article Linux kernel, and then the current article Linux be moved to GNU/Linux. I believe option 1 is the best here, and option 2 involves moving too much shit around. I'm sorry I have to use that kind of language, but it's tiresome to write, let alone to do.

Second, GNU/Linux and GNU are not two different operating systems, so why they have two different articles (implying they are two different systems instead of the same system with two kernels) I don't know. I propose the article on GNU/Linux (after the above change comes into effect) be changed so that it describes the same operating system of GNU with a different, more complete (for lack of a better term) kernel instead of a different operating system called "Linux". What does everyone think of this? --User:Iambus | talk 23:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a slightly different proposal:

1. Linux should talk about the kernel
2. Big part of the material from this article should be moved to Linux, Linux distribution and some to GNU
3. There should be no GNU/Linux article since that name is mostly intended to promote a POV and for advertisement purposes, promoting GNU and freedom as Stallman declares himself, not that's anything wrong with that, just that Wikipedia is not about advertising or promoting political points. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 00:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, how can material from "this article" (assuming you are talking about Linux) be moved to Linux? And I would hardly describe Stallman's viewpoint as "advertising and promotion", which imply commercial intent. I don't believe it is for the purpose of promoting GNU, or else Stallman would call the whole thing "GNU". I believe GNU/Linux is the correct term for the operating system consisting of the Linux kernel and the GNU everything else. Even though GNU is the original, and the project whose members author most of the code, RMS says if arrogance and self-promotion was the reason or that name, he would call the whole thing "GNU".

Secondly, it causes much confusion whether talking about "Linux" in the article, and since the only way to distinguish without using "the evil POV term GNU/Linux" (the POV that you disagree with, basically) is using "Linux kernel" for the kernel and using the incorrect, Torvalds-centric term "Linux" for GNU/Linux. "Linux kernel" in every sentence to avoid confusion seems awkward, and it is hard to tell if one uses "Linux" for both. So, GNU/Linux is the best alternative. --User:Iambus^৹ | talk 01:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

so following 1 .Linux should be renamed Linux (kernel). ? thats something to start with as a better reflection of the reality.Mion (talk)

I think that most of us agree that Linux and Linux (kernel) is a doublure, so maybe we should fix this first. Mion (talk) 00:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what your fancy-ass French word means, so use a regular English word to describe it. --User:Iambus^৹ | talk 01:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all "Linux kernel" is a tautology, Linux is a kernel. Second, I don't think we need to have a GNU/Linux or Linux OS (according to POV) at all, we should only have Linux, Linux distribution, GNU, Debian, Red Hat, KDE, GNOME, etc. there are no issues that cannot be treated in one of these articles. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 01:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You "forgot" to mention the GNU/Linux. I agree with Mion. Wikipedia should have a GNU/Linux article. By the way a "Linux distribution" would be a distribution consisting just of the kernel since Linux is only that: the kernel.--Grandscribe (talk) 02:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

If Linux is a kernel, why not 1. Delete Linux kernel, 2. Move Linux to GNU/Linux, then 3. rewrite Linux to the previous contents of Linux kernel? And what do you mean "According to POV"? My POV is already stated, and so is yours. You are not being neutral here, and nor am I. If it weren't for the GNU Project, [[GNU/Linux would have been nothing but Linus Torvalds' project, which is Linux. So, if you think about it, saying "Linux" is saying the GNU Project's contribution is invalid. That is only what makes it appropriate, and that's what you and everyone else who agrees with you are saying. It is incorrect, because since the article says it's an operating system, and GNU Project made the operating system except for the current kernel, Linux is only the right name for it if you are talking about the kernel (because without the GNU in GNU/Linux, the GNU contribution is gone in the name and thus refers to a kernel). The logical thing to do is either change the article or rename the article. --Iambus

Sorry that was Dutch, Doublure=Double. Mion (talk) 01:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. --Iambus

1. Why delete Linux kernel, it has good info, it just needs to be renamed "Linux". 2. I explained why GNU/Linux is not a good term, it's mainly for pushing POV and political points, BTW that's why you see so many people bitching about it, because they want to push a POV. 3. No need because the material from this current Linux should simple be moved to appropriate articles. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Different things have different names. A kernel is just ONE component that makes up a complete operating system. There is one kernel named Linux. To have a complete and usable operating system many more different programs have to be put to work together with a kernel. A kernel by itself would be complete useless. A user would need a lot more than if he wanted to do something as simple as write a document and send it by E-mail. These other different programs beyond the kernel that would make that simple act possible have been written by hundreds of different programmers. When their programs are used with any kernel why should the entire set thus formed have to be named after just one program in this case the kernel with which I could not do honestly any task? Then which words to use to name a complete operating system?
It has been clearly demonstrated that since most of the programs that are used to make a complete and truly functional operating system come from the GNU project it is logical and fair that the operating system that is functional and usable thanks mainly to GNU software be called GNU plus the name of the kernel if you wish. A good example is Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. This operating system demonstrates that the kernel Linux can be easily replaced but that the GNU software continues to be used. Operating systems such as Debian, gNewSense, Ubuntu, etc that function thanks to the addition of essential GNU software and that use the kernel Linux are rightly called GNU/Linux.--Grandscribe (talk) 02:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Grandscribe here. --Iambus

This is original research and personal opinion, so it's pretty irrelevant for Wikipedia. We should use the term that is used by most of the people and by the press and it's in dictionaries. Also the kernel is the most important part of the OS, some CS people call it the OS. It's also the part that runs all the time, even when you type now on your computer to reply to me you use the kernel however you don't use GNU tools (unless you used a text browser that's released by GNU or "cat" to contribute to Wikipedia) nor do you use a compiler, right? Please don't come with the libc argument, that's silly almost all the OS use libc and there no push to call them GNU/something. My proposal however sidesteps this issue, we don't even talk about "OS" we talk about Linux and about Linux distributions and about different components but separately there's no reason to pretend like there's a unitary Linux OS because there isn't there is the kernel and there are distributions that use different components, we can very well treat all the things that we treat in this article in the article about the kernel, distributions, tools, etc. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

(Reply to man with one shoe) It's not just original research and personal opinion. I gave sources. Furthermore the number of computer book authors that use the name GNU/Linux is growing. Wikipedia should not forbid use of this term.--Grandscribe (talk) 09:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

So your only argument is that because a lot of people use the term "Linux" we should? Many people use the term aeroplane or airplane to describe what Wikipedia calls Fixed-wing aircraft. And how do you determine popularity, and why should we use it? Show me the law here that says "If a lot of people use this term, Wikipedia should". --User:Iambus^৹ | talk 03:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all there's a rule that you can't use Wikipedia as reference, plus a bad article name doesn't justify another. In any language the name of a thing is what most of the people use to call that thing. Wikipedia also has a rule to use references, for Linux I can bring 500,000,000 or so references, I think that's plenty, don't you think? Please bring GNU/Linux references form mainstream press. You might find some, but those are just some exceptions, the overwhelming majority of journalists use "Linux". But anyway, my proposal is to get rid of this debate and put all the content from this article in article about kernel, article about distributions in general, article about GNU, article about specific distributions, article about different tools: gcc, kde, gnome, and so on, why would that not work? man with one red shoe (talk) 04:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

1. I wasn't using Wikipedia as a reference. 2. No, the name of something is what some people call it. There are often multiple names for one thing, and there are often names for things that appear in mainstream media but are not really true. 3. There is an expression, "Quality not quantity". Many mainstream sources doesn't have to mean quality, correct, or true, just mainstream. To me, the validity of a source is not determined by its mainstream-ness, so it doesn't matter.

You have spoken of POV-promotion and pushing, but oddly you don't think you're pushing yours. This is flawed logic, see Two wrongs make a right, where it is identified as a fallacy. I have no problem with moving parts of this article around to different articles, but I would like a consensus, e.g. editors other than us expressing their view here. --User:Iambus^৹ | talk 04:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a simple explanation for POV, Stallman himself declared that the GNU/Linux name was invented for the purpose to promote GNU and promote freedom, etc. While I understand that most of the people who comment on this page are politically motivated to promote GNU, freedom, etc, I am not politically motivated to promote non-freedom, non-GNU (or to hit GNU and hope to die) I simply say that we need to use what references show.

Again to defuse this issue that is discussed on 10 pages of the talk page of this article and is not going to end I propose to do away with this page and put all the relevant information in the pages where it belongs, I don't see any info in this page that can't be put either in the page about kernel, the page about distributions or the page about GNU. But I don't think you'd agree with this because you actually want to hijack the name of "Linux", it's not that you want to just slap "GNU" onto it, you want to capitalize on the popularity of the "Linux" term to promote GNU (which again in other settings would not be a bad thing, but Wikipedia is not to be used for promoting projects, ideals, etc -- that's POV pushing, by not allowing it I don't push an "opposite" POV I simple protect Wikipedia from misuse). -- man with one red shoe (talk) 05:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Man with the red shoe says that the kernel is the "most" important component of an OS. If we put this kernel Linux alone on a computer what will the user be able to do? Stare at an empty dark screen? Will this component alone give your computer network capabilities? Create a simple text document? Wouldn't I have to use a compiler to install additional software that will make the computer useful?

Very nice - but none of these are requirements for an Operating system. A user is not even required, as strange as this may sound to people who think that a computer is a gadget with a keyboard, mouse and screen. You need an operating system for your PIM, DVD-player, router, telephone etc. All of these can run (and a lot do) Linux - and (almost none) run GNU.

Its once more a misunderstanding about what an operating system is. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It was said that we should fix this argument by looking only at what the newspapers say?. That makes no sense. Imagine if lawyers would only be allowed to solve their cases by using only what the newspapers said? If medical doctors had to determine what they should call things in their profession using the words given to them only by newspapers??? Or doing a Google search word count? Everyone knows that they would talk to other colleagues in their respective professions to exchange reliable information.

The references I and others have given do not come from wikipedia itself but from authors that know well what they are writing about. They are professionals in the computer field. Isn't it a bit twisted to say that GNU wants to hijack the word Linux? Isn't it the other way around by trying to name Linux all systems that use the kernel Linus even though it is just ONE single program? Most distributions come with a large number of important programs from a single source: the GNU project. GNU provides libraries, editors, compilers, debuggers, etc. Can anyone do any useful thing on a computer without using the GNU software and instead use just the kernel? This kernel can be replaced as the distribution Debian GNU/kFreeBSD has demonstrated. The kernel Linux was removed and this fully functional operating system is based on the kernel of FreeBSD. The use of the name GNU/Linux for systems that combine the kernel Linux and the GNU software is right.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This makes absolutely no sense. Because you've confused what an Operating system is. An operating system is not: "a lot of tools ... and then the kernel". An Operating system is the interface between hardware and the user-programs.

GNU has provided us with a lot of nice and very useful tools. But the interface between the hardware and user-programs is the kernel. One could make an (good) argument for libc+Kernel being the major interface - but then your argument would again fall to the ground... Because quite a lot of Linux systems aren't running glibc - but instead use dietlibc or uClibc.

There are flavours of Linux running with primarily BSD tools, and more running with GNU tools - and even some running without both (µClinux, any busybox OS etc.).

This is just about the same confusion as that caused by Windows/MS-DOS, where people think that an Operating system is the high-level GUI or TUI. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems that you arguments are going off course. You are focused on speaking about embedded devices. Let's try to bring all this back on the right track. The whole point of this RFC is to discuss if it is ok in Wikipedia that articles that cover operating system distributions that contain the kernel Linux and numerous GNU software to carry out important system tasks can be named GNU/Linux. The topic of the discussion is very concrete. It is not about embedded devices but about the naming that should be used for the operating system distributions that run on a personal computer and that use the kernel Linux and GNU software such as Debian GNU/Linux, Ubuntu, gNewSense.--Grandscribe (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that i'm off course. As we are talking about an Operating system's - we need to have a clear idea of what it is. And embedded systems are an example of the basics of operating systems (they need to be). They don't contain all the fluff that user-space nowadays is filled with - its precisely all this fluff that makes it hard to see the basics. There is no consensus amongst the various distributions to call them GNU/Linux - so an argument is made, that Linux isn't an operating system without the GNU stuff. This is wrong. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kim D, Congratulations for keeping a cool discussion even if there's disagreement. Back on the topic now. If I understand your reasoning you mean that a kernel is at the same time an operating system and a kernel? I had learned that a kernel is one important component of an operating system but that it alone doesn't constitute an operating system according to Andrew S. Tanenbaum and Jochen Liedtke. Another question should distributions be named only after the kernel they use? And why?--Grandscribe (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

No, of course the kernel is not the only part of an Operating system. You need programs in user-space as well, amongst other things, you need process-management tools (init,kill,ps...), you need filesystem management (mount,umount,fsck...), you'll need programs to attach and detach devices, interfaces to system components (such as the network interfaces (ifconfig, netstat,...)), you'll need some way of interfacing with the system (shell,..) etc.

But notice that all of these components are low-level, and in fact most of these are system-dependent (they need to be rather tightly coupled to the kernel) - and very few are programs in the GNU suite. Take a look at busybox's programs - most of these are the components that are needed for Linux (or other Unix's) to become usable. (there's some "fluff" there - but all the basics are covered).

In the case of *nix flavour systems, the kernel (linux, solaris, bsd, aix...) names the operating system (and the distribution). What individual distributions call themselves is of course their choice, but in general all of the distributions are named by the kernel. --Kim D. Petersen (talk)

We agree that a kernel is one important component of an operating system. By definition a distribution is a bundle of software. If the situation is that a distribution contains besides the kernel a long list of essential software from a single source for example the GNU project, it makes sense to identify such a distribution with the "label" a GNU/Linux distribution. If a distribution uses mainly a kernel and one or two non-GNU software it would also make sense for everyone to call that distribution a Linux distribution which is the case in the examples you gave of embeded devices though that is not exactly what is under discussion. When a non-biased computer user discovers that much of the essential software in his Debian GNU/Linux, gNewSense, Ubuntu, etc, distribution is GNU software such as bash, gnome, GIMP, gzip, the GNU compiler collection, the GNU C library, GNU core utils,GNU Binary utilities,GRUB, tar, GNU grep, GNU Readline, etc (without using as an argument the fact that most of the software including non-GNU software like the kernel Linux is released under the GNU General Public license) it makes a lot of sense to name that specific distribution GNU/Linux. It's not a personal attack. It's a question of better defining these mentioned distributions.--Grandscribe (talk) 09:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It makes just as much sense to call it a BSD/Linux distribution, or how about MIT/Linux distribution, based either upon base tools and/or on base license. The trouble here is that now you aren't speaking about what is correct or not. You are speaking "fair" or "makes sense". (to whom btw? Linus? Theodore T'so? Stallman? Alan Cox? Redhat? FSF?) - it is not Wikipedia's job to determine what is "fair" or "makes sense", in fact this is specifically not allowed. As i said i personally sympathize with the GNU/Linux naming (i called my company lignus for a reason) - but i also understand the difference between what is the real world - and wishes. (btw. the only component you mention that makes sense to argue about is glibc - all others have standard alternatives in most distributions). --Kim D. Petersen (talk)

Ok. It is not wikipedia's job to be fair. Shouldn't it give lay people using the Encyclopedia as reference the clearest description of the subject covered?. Nobody has suggested the kernel Linux has to be called GNU/Linux. That kernel will always be named Linux. It will remain the authorship of Linus Torvalds. I didn't see anyone ask that articles about embedded devices that use the kernel Linux plus any other individual piece of software be called GNU/Linux. The reason of this RFC was that there are a few articles where specific distributions using the kernel Linux plus the GNU software as their basis, NOT all distributions, are described as GNU/Linux distributions. There are many computer book authors that use GNU/Linux to name these type of distribution. No one has asked that ALL distributions that contain the kernel Linux and zero GNU software be named GNU/Linux. I don't think you have to worry the software in minimal embedded systems risks being called GNU/Linux. Many suggest wikipedia keeps both terms to name those distributions(Debian, gNewSense, Ubuntu): Linux and GNU/Linux. To "rule" that those distributions can only be described as Linux distributions because of a mere number of 3 votes in the previous RFC hurts the reliability of wikipedia and adds confusion to the subject. It's an unnecessary counterproductive move.--Grandscribe (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The "clearest description" would certainly not be "GNU/Linux". That's simply a different arbitrary call. The term "GNU/Linux" is and always has been more political than scientific. Furthermore, RfCs are not votes; they're gauges of community opinion, and the previous one provided a solid basis argument-wise for the current state of affairs even if there was no empirical majority "vote". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Calling it GNU/Linux is a political statement. I happen to agree with the political basis for it - but i also very aware that it is political, and thus has no place on Wikipedia, except of course if suddenly Linus (and others) change their minds, in which case it becomes the official name. But i'm not holding my breath. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of calling a spade a spade. Red Hat, Debian etc. contain more GNU than they contain Linux kernel, so it just makes sense to call it GNU or GNU/Linux. "Linux" could be called political. It's pushed by companies who sell proprietary software who also want to sell free software (or related services) while sheltering their customers from the message that computer users deserve certain freedoms from all software. --Gronky (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't "make sense" to do this, because no other software project is labelled in this way. And the argument that "Linux" is pushed by proprietary vendors instead of "GNU/Linux" is a specious conspiracy theory. There's no evidence that this is true, and while I'd expected it from the now-banned User:Lightedbulb, I didn't expect it from someone with some common sense. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Describing certain distributions as GNU/Linux has nothing to do with politics. It is based on the reality of those distributions that contain mainly GNU software as their basis. The term GNU/Linux must be kept because it reflects the use of that name by numerous authors. We should not seek to remove GNU by looking for ways to justify deleting them from articles because of "antipathy". There never was a "consensus" to remove GNU/Linux. A vote of 3 from the previous RFC is not a solid argument to back that. "Science" is based on facts. It's fact that the distributions under discussion contain the largest number of software from one single source: the GNU project. The term GNU/Linux merely reflects that fact. It doesn't necessarily mean that you agree or like the ideas that may be associated with GNU.-Grandscribe (talk) 07:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Certain distributions" can call themselves GNU/Linux, that is certainly their right, and of course their articles, should call them by their chosen name. But that debian calls itself GNU/Linux does not "rub off" to all other distributions - nor does it "rub off" on what we call the operating system itself.

I contest very much that Linux distributions consists of "mainly GNU software" (as either their basis or completely). Yes, i've read the line-count paper - but he counts everything, not what is typically in an installation. Or what is needed for the system to run. It also seems to be that people are cherry picking his comment that there (paraphrased) is basis for calling it GNU/Linux - since he immediately also says that there is ample basis for just calling it Linux.

For instance remove the gcc compiler suite (gcc,gdb,bison,...) - and the figures are quite different. And you don't need these to run a system at all. (that goes for a lot of components - but go down to the basis - and the system will not be "mainly GNU software" by his figures. Sorry. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It also misrepresents the history of the project. Linux was written to be an operating system, in the same way that Minix is an operating system. That the quickest and best way to add functionality was to use software from the GNU project (as used by contemporary hobbyists on other Unixes) is true, but the whole "this is a complete operating system which just lacks a kernel" thing is historical revisionism which was retconned into the history of GNU by the FSF.

Regardless of this, though, the point is that regardless of the composition of the system, the aggregate is most commonly referred to in its entirety as Linux, and the encyclopedia's guidelines suggest that in the absense of an authority to say otherwise that this is how we should name the aggregate. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

GNU had a kernel, the project backfired and they abandoned it in search of a new one. It was fully complete, except for the kernel, so they found Linux (which happened to be licenced under the free licence, so the GNU Project could use it) and used it. Linus Torvalds was doing it for fun, and then the GNU Project, who could actually use it, used it. And how can I explain two users popping up on Man with Red Shoe's side in the time of a day? Recruiting perhaps?

Now, why did Kim D. Petersen choose to bring up MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows, which are two different operating systems? --User:Iambus^৹ | talk 17:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I chose Win and MS because they are the OS's that most people have migrated from. And those are the users that i most commonly see with that particular misconception (frankly MS is hardly an OS at all). And i can most certainly assure you that i've not been recruited. I've commented here before (add: even with the same context). Please apply some good sense instead of assuming bad faith - Ok? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

And GNU didn't have a kernel, it wasn't finished. And i know this from experience, since i was one of those waiting (eagerly) for the Hurd, since the 90's. Linux with the Slackware distribution was commercial way before the GNU people declared for Linux. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition, if the kernel is "only a component" and if it's such a trivial piece of software why GNU took more than 20 years and still is not able to launch a viable kernel that competes with Linux. To me this "only a component" sounds exactly like when people call evolution "only a theory". man with one red shoe (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I didn't recruit anybody, I don't have friends over there. man with one red shoe (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Did anyone say a kernel is trivial? The point is that although it is an important component it is only one component. A kernel is one component of an operating system. A kernel is not the whole operating system. Linus Torvalds and the other programmers who helped him wrote a kernel, a good one. But they did not write all of the other required components, did they?--Grandscribe (talk) 22:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death, and many editors don't rush to reply every time when a new user/account comes forth with The Truth and presents ideas that seem to be based on disagreement with the project's policies, which require due weight and use of common names. There was a recruitment issue earlier though, but it was on the other side of the debate and consisted of one user recruiting his multiple personalities. Prolog (talk) 00:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of wikipedia policies it would be good to remember them especially when treating new users:

• Be polite
• Assume good faith
• No personal attacks
• Be welcoming

--Grandscribe (talk) 20:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

People Fighting About GNU/Linux Or Linux Contributes Nothing Useful To The World

Sign here if you agree with this position. 69.196.135.44 (talk) 22:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Well, I was one fighting on this page, but I have to admit this is true. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

A comment

I don't think it contributes because I'm taking a defensive position but, I think it's worth addressing because Linux and GNU/Linux have different meanings. Mike92591 (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Please don't start a new flood

User:Thumperward, you have failed to get the support you sought with this Rfc. Please stop the new wave of "GNU/" deletions you've started. You chose the forum, the procedure etc. now accept the result. Last time I counted, there were six people supporting each side on terminology, and no one saying anything about your call for consistency. --Gronky (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm bemused that you would refer to the above discussion as having been a "failure" or "rejection" on my behalf. The purpose of the RfC is to generate commentary from others, not to have a vote, and it's ongoing. But if you're going to continue a singlehanded edit war on the topic (while at every stage blaming me for your actions), at least have the decency not to use misleading edit summaries whereby you claim to be restoring an old version which doesn't exist. I'm still waiting for you to reply honestly to why consensus isn't beneficial, or for you to demonstrate that you understand how an RfC works. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

After your flood last Summer, I don't think your helping your case by insulting singlehandedness. This Rfc, Talk:gNewSense, and the complaints on your talk page have shown me that I'm not alone on this one. I'll comment on a consensus if you can point me to one. An Rfc was called, twelve or so people contributed, most dug their heels in on one side or the other, there are no new people entering the debate, and there's as much support for GNU/Linux as their is for Linux. There's nothing to comment on. You looked for support, didn't get it. --Gronky (talk) 22:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't look for "support", I looked for comments. The purpose of the RfC is to gauge community opinion, not to have an up-or-down vote. Unanimity was never going to happen, but lots of well-reasoned arguments for consistent use of the most common name have been given, while there's been little added on the other side. An RfC is a necessary first step in the path of dispute resolution, which is where this will go next if the partisan edit warring doesn't stop. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is time for some sort of dispute resolution on this. Gronky has made several inappropriate edits with misleading edit summaries, and I have reverted several of them. I am not interested in entering this silly edit war, but there is no end in sight unless there is a formal ruling on this matter.

For the time being I strongly suggest both User:Thumperward and User:Gronky voluntarily refrain from changing references to Linux to GNU/Linux and vice versa. —BradV 22:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, happy to leave off for now. RfCs are meant to be open for a month, and I reckon there's still plenty of dicsussion left in this one. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Chris, you are one half of the partisan edit-warring. I've read this whole discussion and see absolutely no justification for your comments that those who agree with you are making lots of well reasoned arguments while those that don't are adding little. I've seen reasonable arguments on both sides -- and I've seen a lot of people making reasonable (and sometimes less reasonable) arguments in favor of positions that just happen to be in support of their elsewhere-stated POVs. If you really can't see reasonable arguments in the other side of this issue after all that's been written here, I think I'm going to have to agree with BradV about the need for arbitration. —mako๛ 23:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I can see a reasoned argument for Wikipedia treating the issue precisely as it treats the US English / British English thing, though I still disagree with that on accounts of the existence of authorities on that subject where none exist here. Other than that, almost all counter-arguments either take the form of the "accuracy" argument which I believe I've argued convincingly is invalid given the project's naming conventions, or procedural grumbling about the outcome of the previous RfC and the subsequent demonising of myself as an iron-fisted WikiTyrant or the like (which would be amusing if it were only coming from throwaway accounts, but seems to be popular among people who should know better). There's still plenty of time to debate this, and I'm voluntarily holding off from making edits which are subject to this RfC until it's finished. I'd much rather talk this out here and now if at all possible. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Gronky, there may (and probably is) some history here that we can't determine. But you are the one coming across currently as the unreasonable one. You tally is btw. wrong (while noting that this wasn't a vote) it comes to: GNU/Linux: 2(3), Ambivalent/Don't care: 2, Linux: 6(7). Please stay cool - ok? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

My count of those who seem to have taken a position is:

• Linux: Thumperward, BradV, Deep Alexander, Man with one red shoe, Kim Dabelstein Petersen, Writtenonsand
• GNU/Linux: Gronky, Mion, Mako, Grandscribe, AVRS, Iambus

That, FWIW, is how I got my 6/6 figure. I know this isn't a vote.

I'm pretty surprised my behaviour is being criticised. Maybe indeed it's because I assume something is obvious when it actually isn't. So I'll summarise the history as briefly as possible:

The background of all this

(outdenting) Last Summer and Autumn, after an Rfc with weak participation where 2-3 people favoured GNU/Linux and 4-6 people favoured "Linux", Thumperward declared there was consensus for all mentions of "GNU/Linux" to be removed from Wikipedia (except for mentions of the naming controversy). He then set to implementing this. I pointed out that his actions did not have the backing of any real consensus, and I undid some of his removals of "GNU/", but he reverted me. At the time, he was averaging 1,200 edits per month,[8] so I, and others who disagreed with him, quickly learned that trying to stop him was just a waste of our time.

The result was that "GNU/Linux" was erased by one editor while those who objected were ignored and their ability to participate in the writing of Wikipedia was rendered useless (Wikipedia's community process failed - I called this the "edit flood" problem).

Recently, the issue resurfaced because Jimbo Wales,[9] Simon Phipps,[10] Dkrogers,[11] NerdyNSK,[12] voiced their objection to Thumperward's actions, on his talk page and on Talk:gNewSense. So Thumperward opened this Rfc. As mentioned above, and I know it's not a vote, but there's 6 advocates for each term. There is clearly no consensus for the systematic removal of either term from Wikipedia. Doing so would be wrong, but...

A few minutes ago, Thumperward went back to removing all mentions of "GNU/" anyway. I've tried to undo these removals. Since his removals of "GNU/" are combined with other trivial changes, I've done the reverts as best as I could by hand so as not to discard his other tweaks. So I'm surprised I get criticised and reverted in such an organised way. --Gronky (talk) 00:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply:

• Firstly, you're yet again characterising the RfC process as a vote. There was sufficient participation last time for a position to be drafted and then implemented, and there was (as now) no adequate rebuttal of the arguments given. While I was making a lot of edits at the time, there was no move on behalf of any of those who disagreed with me towards Wikipedia dispute resolution process. Indeed, the response taken was specifically conducted in a manner which appeared to be avoiding such a process - forum shopping (edits were discussed on individual talk pages rather than linking back to the previous discussions on this one), stealth edits to insert the term "GNU/Linux" in the form GNU/Linux or GNU/Linux so as to make it more difficult to detect links to that page, and (in some cases, though unrelated to you) edit warring with multiple sockpuppets. While you've spent over six months decrying my actions, including soapboxing on your user page, it's always been me that's taken steps towards formal resolution.
• Secondly, you're yet again characterising loud opposition from a number of individuals as being evidence of there being "no consensus". Consensus does not imply a unanimous vote. Of those contesting the decision, several have either direct links to the FSF (the organisation's webmaster, the founder of Wikipedia, the head of Sun's open source division) or are otherwise declared partisans. In this environment, there is obviously never going to be unanimity. However, the project as a whole can still decide, by discussion and reference to the project's guidelines, that a position has approval. I've worked to generate this consensus by engaging in direct debate on a number of occasions, by pointing to WP's style guidelines and policies, and by opening formal RfCs for further input.
• Thirdly, this edit is not an attempt to restore a previous version without disturbing other edits. It's a full reversal of the article's position. I can surmise that the reason for this is that having the article be internally inconsistent would be a bad thing. But having the project be globally inconsistent is also bad, which is the whole reason for this discussion.

Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with user Gronky. User Thumperward tried to build a "consensus" against the use of GNU/Linux in Wikipedia. It didn't happen. Because Thumperward himself (originator of the previous RFC and of the current one!!!) and two other users didn't like to see GNU is not a solid or valid reason to forbid the use of the name GNU/Linux to describe the distributions that contain the largest number of software from the GNU project. It is a fact not politics. --Grandscribe (talk) 08:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Consistency is desirable, but it's not a be all and end all requirement. It is harmful when facts are misrepresented in order to achieve consistency. The fact is that all of "Linux", "GNU/Linux" and "GNU+Linux" are used to refer to the operating system. Your job as an editor is to make the readers aware of this fact, your job is not to consistently use only one of them through-out Wikipedia to make it look like the "correct" term to use -- and that's what it is going to look like, because people expect encyclopedias give correct answers and use correct terms. -- parasti ^(talk) 17:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no "correct" term. The best we can do is to use the most common one and make it abundantly clear what the definition is being taken to be. It most certainly isn't Wikipedia's "job" to increase awareness of minority terms, so long as they are provided sufficient explanation to inform readers as to what they mean. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, I'm looking at this from a layperson's POV, but (operating from WP:VERIFY here) I gave at least one cite from a reputable general dictionary that "Linux" is "the correct" term, and in follow-up suggested that we see if there in fact a broad consensus among dictionaries on this. If there is, IMHO that would pretty much answer the question, "Just what should we be calling this thing, anyway?" -- Writtenonsand (talk) 02:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

When discussing an operating system made of GNU + Linux, and when GNU is the much larger contribution,[13] I don't think cutting GNU from the name can ever be part of any overall hope to make clarity abundant. --Gronky (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

For some reason the William Jefferson Clinton page not only misspells the man's first name, it omits his middle name entirely! Surely clarity would only be increased by using the full name, even though it is not the most common name used to refer to the subject? (before we nitpick the analogy here, let's point out that it's obviously imperfect because Bill Clinton, unlike the Free Software Foundation, is an authority on his own name.) Policy actively favours more common names over "more accurate" names, even accepting the falsehood that there is an accuracy element to the "GNU/Linux" name. For what it's worth, dwheeler's guide happened to lump the whole of GNOME in with GNU (which evidently doesn't happen in non-GNOME distros) and points out that even then GNU software does not form a plurality of code in the average Linux distro, so the counterargument that "GNU/Linux" is no more valid than "GNU/X/BSD/Mozilla/Linux" is equally well upheld by the paper in question. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The best Wikipedia can do is to not undermine its own standards in order to achieve consistency. What's different in changing all mention of one valid term to another valid term from changing. for instance, all American English spelling to British English spelling? -- parasti ^(talk) 00:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Parasti. There was never a "consensus" to remove GNU/Linux from wikipedia. It's not objective to try to turn this discussion into a political debate. To describe a distribution containing a large collection of GNU system software and the kernel Linux as GNU/Linux doesn't mean to "endorse" the philosophy of anyone. It's not wikipedia's job to give judgments in favor or against a person or group by keeping or removing words that may be associated with them. Its role is to supply facts to its readers. GNU/Linux is a technical term in current use to describe some distributions. The Encyclopedia should continue to use it.--Grandscribe (talk) 21:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ, GNU/Linux is a term created for political (and advertising) purposes. See RMS' explanations on why he came up the term and why people should use it. Virtually nobody except for indoctrinated FSF fans use it. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 23:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Stallman coined the term so that users would not be mislead about what they were using. For him, this accuracy serves a social purpose. Wikipedia also wants accuracy, and so should also use the term GNU/Linux. Stallman's reasons don't affect this. --Gronky (talk) 00:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, but Stallman hasn't earned the priviledge of getting to name something he didn't create. "Linux" existed before "GNU/Linux", and "Linux" can certainly exist without the "GNU" part, even though such implementations are rare; this article describes the thing called "Linux". -/- Warren 00:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

"Accuracy" in this case extends only as far as stating what the opinion of those who favour "GNU/Linux" is. We don't go messing about with proper nouns out of "accuracy" concerns. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Man with red shoe, your argument that the term GNU/Linux was created for "political or advertising purposes" is your personal opinion not a good reason to justify removing it. It's not because Richard Stallman "wants" that we should continue using the term in wikipedia. The reason is that it's a technical term in current use by many authors and publications. If we followed your logic and reasoning then someone would come up with the argument: "we should not use the word Linux because it was a word created after Linus Torvalds' first name to please his ego and advertise himself".

GNU/Linux simply means a distribution that contains a large number of system software from the GNU project bundled with the kernel Linux. You should not let personal feelings against Richard Stallman impair your objectivity. The same advice for Warren, We are not here to judge people or their work. Nobody suggested the program Linux(the kernel) be named GNU/Linux. "Distributions" with a lot of GNU system software bundled with the kernel Linux can objectively be described as GNU/Linux distributions.--Grandscribe (talk) 07:54, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Position by User:Localzuk

I think it is pretty obvious what my position is on this issue - the term 'Linux' should be the most commonly used one, as it is the term most commonly used by a) the media b) companies and c) normal people. The only people who use the GNU/Linux name are those tied in with the FSF - such as Sun, Debian, and the FSF themselves. There is no definitive name for the OS called Linux, as it is not created by one organisation. Why should we ignore the prior nameing rules simply because the FSF has decreed it? Linus has said the exact opposite - that it should be called Linux. So it seems to me that both of those should be ignored and the rule of common sense be used. If you start using 'GNU/Linux' all over the place, interchangably with Linux on its own, it will lead to confusion. Many people simply do not know what GNU/Linux is but do know what Linux is.-Localzuk^(talk) 19:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I can show a long list of books published for the year 2007 and beginning of 2008 that use the term GNU/Linux. The term GNU/Linux is currently used by many different book authors and publishers and for that reason it has to be included in Wikipedia.

About the other point. Most people do not know what Linux is. Most people don't know the difference between an "Operating System" and "a kernel". The kernel is a part, an operating system is the whole. Linux is one part of an operating system. The user does not directly interact with the kernel. The user will not even see the kernel. It is an internal part of the operating system. Other software parts are needed besides the kernel to have a full operating system. In most cases, these other parts come from the GNU project. It's a fact that the most popular distributions are made in this way. Then to call these distributions GNU/Linux clearly describes this fact. Most users will come into contact with, and will have to use, the operating system tools such as BASH that comes from the GNU project, to compile and install a program they'll have to use gcc(the GNU C compiler), GNU make, GNU build system. They'll use the GNOME desktop environment,etc,etc. All of these programs come from the GNU project.

The use of the name GNU/Linux is necessary to describe these distributions.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

None of this requires that the FSF's choice of terminology be adopted. The current split (where the kernel is at Linux kernel) does a good enough job of separating the concepts, and as Gronky has pointed out GNU software doesn't even make up a plurality of the contents of a modern Linux distro. On a side note, knowing where random parts of the OS came from isn't any more useful to most people than knowing how much of the kernel code was written by such-and-such. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if you learned the word "plurality" from following US presidential elections. There, in their two party system, plurality is a fancy word for majority - which seems to be how you use it. However, according to the dictionary definitions on dict.org, GNU share could indeed be said to have plurality in the operating system.[14] --Gronky (talk) 16:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he meant what he said. —BradV 16:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

More importantly I should have resisted poking fun anyway. This isn't a talk page where it's easy for the editors to have a laugh together :-/ --Gronky (talk) 20:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Position by man with one red shoe (talk)

I think we should not use GNU/Linux at all, the only place where is appropriate is in the name of the distros that use such a name. The name is just an invention of RMS to promote GNU and its ideals. I am not going to comment if those ideas are good or bad, but the issue here at hand is that Wikipedia should not promote products and should not promote ideals (at least not in an explicit way). While I understand that many people are fans of RMS and of FSF and they are determined to push this name as the "correct" one there's no such thing as a correct term, and GNU/Linux definitely isn't the one. Linux was used long time before RMS even thought of "GNU/Linux", most of the people, the press, companies simple use "Linux", most of the distributions use Linux too. In any language the "correct" term for anything is the one that's mostly used by people. In addition most of the OSes are named after the kernel not after the compiler, license or some userspace tools, the kernel is the most important part of a OS, the kernel is actually an OS for many embedded devices, so a kernel is the minimum OS possible, you can add more stuff but that's not essential.

I think that a solution to this conflict is to not talk about a "Linux OS", we can circumvent this by talking about Linux (the kernel), Linux distributions, GNU project, KDE, GNOME, etc. separately and where is relevant to talk about them. Most of the problems that we encounter in this page are due to the fact that there isn't a (one) "Linux OS" there's no such thing, there are Linux based distributions or "Linux distributions", I think that all the material in this page can be distributed to the articles that I mentioned without losing anything essential. Once is done we need to rename Linux kernel back to the proper name "Linux" and link content either to Linux, Linux distribution, and GNU, depending on the context. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What I don’t like here is the word “distribution”.

• It makes 10 disks a distribution of something that only takes 1/6 of a disk.
• Debian GNU/Linux becomes “Linux distribution”, Debian GNU/Hurd becomes “GNU”, and what does Debian GNU/kFreeBSD become? This is probably a different problem than “Linux distribution” vs “GNU/Linux distribution”, or something like “GNU and Linux distribution” (the latter and/or similar terms, IMO, should be used for systems that identify themselves as GNU/Linux or Linux and GNU, if “distribution” is used).
• Were it not for article size, I’d just mention that in Unix-like. Anyway, a lot of stuff in Linux distribution belongs in Unix-like.
• A guess: are people starting to choose operating systems based on what software is packaged on the discs by default? How much does that depend on the quality of their Internet connection, rather than just simple cost?

--AVRS (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment, that proposal is only second choice, if people don't see the merit of it so be it, but I am very determined about the first part, we shouldn't use "GNU/Linux" in Wikipedia only because RMS says so. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 21:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's focus on the facts. We are discussing that an operating system distribution made up of the kernel Linux and a long list of GNU system software is rightly described with the name GNU/Linux. I do have a long list of computer and science books from around the world published in 2007 and beginning of 2008 that use the name GNU/Linux. None of them was written by Richard Stallman. The use of the name GNU/Linux is OK for wikipedia--Grandscribe (talk) 11:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no "rightly deserved" about it. There is no authority to make that call. Wikipedia is not here to reward people for their contributions to society, and our naming policies do not state that articles should be named by some honour policy. That's the long and the short of the "rightly deserved" argument. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not use the phrase "rightly deserved". Please STOP distorting what other people say. The argument for the use of GNU/Linux is solely based on the fact that most distributions are made up using GNU system software. That concerns especially Debian, Ubuntu, gNewSense and others. This is a fact that you can not deny. This type of distributions are "rightly"(meaning accurately) "described" as GNU/Linux distributions.--Grandscribe (talk) 14:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You said "rightly described" that's nothing more than an opinion and a point of view that some people want to push on this page. I disagree that's "rightly described", let me repeat my arguments:

• Linguistic argument: In any language the "correct" term for anything is the one that's mostly used by people. Linux is without any doubt the most used term by public, literature, news, and distributions themselves. Does anybody claim the contrary?
• Advertising argument: GNU/Linux was coined for publicity reasons (promoting GNU and its ideals), Wikipedia shouldn't be an advertising platform. Personally I think this argument together with the linguistic arguments are the most important arguments here.
• Computer science argument: Most of the OSes are named after the kernel not after the compiler, license, or user-space tools. The kernel is the most important part of a OS, the kernel is actually an OS for many embedded devices, so a kernel is the minimum OS possible, you can add more stuff, but that's not essential for the existence of an OS.
• Precedence argument: The Linux name was used before GNU/Linux, take a look at the Debian announcement letter [15] Ian Murdock addresses people with "Dear Linuxers" not "Dear GNU/Linuxers" and there's actually no GNU mentioned in that letter.
• Incomplete argument: GNU is only a part of the project, a modern Linux distro contains X, KDE, and other free software, many parts are not even licensed under GNU GPL, BSD parts work very fine with Linux. A "complete" and "correct" name would be something like Linux/GNU/X/KDE/etc.
• Freedom argument: The code is free, people should be free to use it under whatever name they want, by demanding people to use specific names for the derived projects for giving credit to different projects RMS actually take away freedom away from people. Of course the claim is that this is not a "demand" is only "asking politely to give appropriate credit" but in practice by having all the GNU fans constantly demanding people to use the "correct" term is not merely "politely asking" and it gets pretty annoying and disruptive as the talk page (and archive) of this article shows (so we are still free to use the name we want, but we are constantly annoyed) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 15:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It's very dismissive to say "that is NOTHING more than an opinion". One could say the same about your claims. You seem to reverse the roles. The "push" comes from the "project" to remove GNU/Linux based on a previous RFC where only 3 users supported that action. User: Thumperward was the executioner of that action and he also is the originator of the current RFC. In the current discussion we have read comments from some users:"RMS doesn't deserve or merit it". "It's only a political and propaganda term", "wikipedia doesn't have to name it like that only because RMS says so", etc etc. The "push" comes from those who wish to delete this term but do not provide an acceptable argument to do that. The encyclopedia should present people with the facts. GNU/Linux is a name currently in use for several distributions because it reflects how they are made(Debian, Ubuntu, gNewSense,etc). I haven't seen anyone here ask that ALL distros (included the mentioned embedded systems) be named GNU. It's exaggerated to say anyone is asking for that. It is also an over generalization to name an entire OS distribution made up of different components after just the kernel because, even though you some may want to have an embedded device with the kernel that is not the case for the most popular distributions available today. It confuses readers. They won't know where the kernel starts, where it ends, what is within the kernel and what is outside since you are proposing to call everything made up f a kernel and bundled software Linux. I think the others, who think the name GNU/Linux should be kept, are putting good faith in this discussion and basing their arguments only on technical grounds--Grandscribe (talk) 01:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC).

Is nothing more than an opinion when is not backed up by logic arguments and facts. But anyway, by pretending that you were hurt by my comments you actually avoided to address my points and even more you tried to trivialized them by summarizing them in a frivolous way. Please address my punctual arguments and then we can talk about your straw-mans (straw-men?) that you invented in this paragraph (for example: when have I talked about RMS deserving anything? This is not the issue) So, why are my arguments wrong? Take the first one, is the assertion that most people call it Linux is incorrect or is it wrong that the correct term in a language is the one used by most of the people and the one that appears in most of the dictionaries? How about the second one, is it incorrect that the term was invented to promote GNU and GNU philosophy? Or is it incorrect that Wikipedia shouldn't use such a minority view because Wikipedia is not supposed to promote projects or philosophies? Please explain. How about that fact that the kernel is an operating system by itself while GNU is never an OS without a kernel? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 01:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see it, the only ones making it a political agenda about freedom are man with one red shoe and chris, Wikipedia is not about expressing opinions, if a company makes a product car X Lets say Toyota makes a Prius, its called a Toyota Prius, and if Debian makes a Debian GNU/Linux distribution that is what the name is is Debian GNU/Linux. So why is it that we have a discussion here that 5 people decide that 10.000 projects should change there opinion ? Mion (talk) 01:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

My point about freedom was only one in six and it was placed last in the list as I consider it a marginal argument, I would be more curious to see what people have to say to the first 3 points which are not political and they talk about general issues and Wikipedia practices (and they are not mere opinions they are based on clear facts), I'm not advocating changing names of projects (another strawman), I'm talking about Wikipedia policies and how should we call the operating system here, that's the discussion, right? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 01:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

no, by putting up the points you are suggesting the question is debateble which it is not, the products are named by the producers, so product names are not under discussion. Mion (talk) 01:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

No, you don't understand, I don't debate how people call their products, Debian for example can call their OS "Debian GNU" even if they use Linux, or only "Debian" or even "GNU" (if they get permission from FSF), or "Juju OS". What I discuss here is how we refer to the generic OS based on Linux kernel here in Wikipedia Am I in the wrong discussion? man with one red shoe (talk) 02:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

We quote what the main page reference of the article states, that should stop our discussion here, its not up to us to have an opinion, and maybe later on, on the central page Linux we can have a resume of the articles. Mion (talk) 02:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

We quote what from what? Sorry I didn't catch that. Again I never said that we need to change the name of a distribution that use "GNU/Linux" in its name. I don't debate that, and my opinion is clear that we need to use the name that the distro uses. The question to my understanding is: are we going to have separate categories "GNU/Linux distributions" and "Linux distributions" how are we going to refer to the OS in general, Linux, GNU/Linux, or both? man with one red shoe (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

man with red shoes, If Using GNU/Linux is a "minority" term and it goes against wikipedia "policies" can you then explain why is it that most of wikipedia in the other languages use GNU/Linux??? If it is a wikipedia "policy" why is it that even Jimmy Wales, its leading figure, is against removing GNU/Linux? Is a "push" by a single user to remove GNU/linux, backed by 2 others from a previous RFC,(though GNU/Linux is used in wikipedia's other languages, though Jimmy Wales backs the use of GNU/Linux) is that a "majority" consensus to remove GNU/Linux????

Before saying that those who support the use of GNU/Linux are not based on logic arguments or facts I'd suggest that first you find sound logic and facts for your claims.

By the way have a look for a moment at my talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Grandscribe

There you will see a non exhaustive but long list of books and publication for 2007 and a bit of 2008 that use the term GNU/Linux. That is a fact.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source and you can't use it as such to motivate choices in other Wikipedia articles, that's the Wikipedia's policy. Jimmy Wales is free to have his own opinions, however he might be wrong from time to time, if he is always right we should let him write the Wikipedia by himself or ask him for arbitration whenever there's a dispute -- see Argument ad Jibonem. Again my argument is not that GNU/Linux is never used, the argument is that Linux is the predominantly used term, please note the difference. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's have a look at the history of the problem here. One user: Thumperward requested this RFC. Why? Because according to him the use of the name GNU/Linux was against a "consensus". By "consensus he meant 2 other users who agreed with him to remove GNU/Linux. There were other users against that idea. There was no real consensus to implement his "project" to remove GNU/Linux from wikipedia.

Speaking of Jimmy Wales learn the following:

Declarations from Jimmy Wales, the board, or the Developers have policy status.WP:CONEXCEPT

And what did Jimmy (Jimbo)Wales say about this supposed "consensus" and the so called "project" to remove the use of the term GNU/Linux from wikipedia?:

I would like to offer my opinion. The project to excise all references to GNU/Linux is deeply POV and wrong. It should be reverted completely and totally as quickly as possible. Virtually all references to Linux should be references to GNU/Linux. I am certainly unaware of any community consensus which would support the draconian and absurd campaign that has been conducted against the correct naming convention.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales has also made declarations in this discussion page. A Member of the Wikipedia Board also expressed his opposition to remove or forbid the use of the name GNU/Linux. They both have written their declarations on this page. Their declarations have policy status. Wikipedia will continue to use the name GNU/Linux! --Grandscribe (talk) 09:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

First - I think you've been told this before... Statements from Wales are not worth more than statements from any other wikipedian. they are not policy - there is even a essay on this... called Wikipedia:Argumentum ad Jimbonem. So please stop this.

Second - noone here has at any point said that all uses of GNU/Linux should be forbidden or removed. Thats a nice strawman, but its 100% wrong. Again - Please stop this bogus "argument".--Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Why do you respond to my position with items about what other people claimed? Especially that my position doesn't mention any claimed consensus about "Linux", none of my points discuss that or use that as argumentation. I'm also not responsible for other people position, please try to keep this tidy and respond to their position not to a position that doesn't even mention so claimed consensus, or make an effort and summarize your position, as I did, in a separate place. And why do you continue to make that tired argument ad Jibonem? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 12:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Petersen and man with red shoes. It is a wikipedia policy. DECLARATIONS from Jimmy Wales and members of the Board have POLICY STATUS. WP:CONEXCEPT Please respect the policies. --Grandscribe (talk) 15:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

And Wales' comment was not a declaration - but a comment, and thus has no policy status at all. This has already been discussed at AN/I here. So i expect you not to try to intimidate or use this again - Ok? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Petersen, Do not try to intimidate and muzzle those who don't agree with you. By the way "to declare" is a verb that means "to announce something clearly or loudly: to state something in a plain, open, or emphatic way". Jimmy Wales and one member of the board have stated clearly and emphatically on this page and on the talk page of the person that was removing GNU/Linux that the project to remove the name GNU/Linux is wrong. And that this activity should be stopped and reverted. One example of this "project" is that of that user who has been trying to remove the name GNU/Linux from the gNewSense article as he had done with many other articles. This user claimed to be doing this following a wikipedia consensus policy. Well the declarations of Jimmy Wales and of members of the board have policy status. This is written in the wikipedia policy pages.WP:CONEXCEPT Their declarations supersede consensus decisions on a page. Jimmy Wales and the members of the Board are a source of wikipedia policy.WP:PG --Grandscribe (talk) 01:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see what Jimbo said about this issue, if you read that you'll see that what you claim is totally false since Jimbo himself said regarding this very issue "First, "Jimbo says" is not a good argument for anything." So stop making this tired argument before you make a fool out of yourself. Jimbo has the right to opinion like anybody else, he expressed it, it doesn't have a policy effect as you claim, if you insist on this fake direction you'll only lose more credibility on this page. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Grandscribe, I have said it a few times now, but I think I need to say it again - you are not reading the comments of others properly. Above, you have been told that saying 'Jimbo says' is not a valid argument unless he specifically states that it is a rule and must be followed (which is quite rare). You also have not bothered to read the linked AN/I page which covers this very issue. Please understand this!-Localzuk^(talk) 11:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Six arguments

Since this discussion has lost focus, here are my arguments for not using GNU/Linux in general when we refer to OS. Please comment these points, not things that I haven't argued:

• Linguistic argument: In any language the "correct" term for anything is the one that's mostly used by people and the term that appears in dictionaries. Linux is without any doubt the most used term by public, literature, news, dictionaries, and distributions themselves. Does anybody claim the contrary?man with one red shoe (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
• Advertising argument: GNU/Linux was coined for publicity reasons (promoting GNU and its ideals), Wikipedia shouldn't be an advertising platform. Personally I think this argument together with the linguistic arguments are the most important arguments here.man with one red shoe (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
• Computer science argument: Most of the OSes are named after the kernel not after the compiler, license, or user-space tools. The kernel is the most important part of a OS, the kernel is actually an OS for many embedded devices, so a kernel is the minimum OS possible, you can add more stuff, but that's not essential for the existence of an OS. GNU tools can never constitute an OS without a kernel. man with one red shoe (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
• Precedence argument: The Linux name was used before GNU/Linux, take a look at the Debian announcement letter [16] Ian Murdock addresses people with "Dear Linuxers" not "Dear GNU/Linuxers" and there's actually no GNU mentioned in that letter. man with one red shoe (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
• Incomplete name argument: GNU is only a part of the project, a modern Linux distro contains X, KDE, and other free software, many parts are not even licensed under GNU GPL, BSD parts work very fine with Linux. A "complete" and "correct" name would be something like Linux/GNU/X/KDE/etc. If "correctness" of a term is measured by having all the component names of a project represented in the name (thing that I don't support, but I present here why even accepting this view GNU/Linux name is not acceptable) then GNU/Linux is not correct either because is an incomplete name and serves the purpose of pushing some specific agendas. man with one red shoe (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
• Freedom argument: The code is free, people should be free to use it under whatever name they want, by demanding people to use specific names for the derived projects for giving credit to different projects RMS actually takes away freedom away from people. Of course the claim is that this is not a "demand" is only "asking politely to give appropriate credit" but in practice by having all the GNU fans constantly demanding people to use the "correct" term is not merely "politely asking" and it gets pretty annoying and disruptive as the talk page (and its archive) of this article show (we are free to use the name we want, but we are constantly badgered to use the "correct" term in the view of GNU fans -- how is this pushing of a minority-used term for political and advertising reasons not a classic example of POV-pushing escapes my power of understanding) man with one red shoe (talk) 02:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see it, the only ones making it a political agenda about freedom are man with one red shoe and chris, Wikipedia is not about expressing opinions, if a company makes a product car X Lets say Toyota makes a Prius, its called a Toyota Prius, and if Debian makes a Debian GNU/Linux distribution that is what the name is is Debian GNU/Linux. So why is it that we have a discussion here that 5 people decide that 10.000 projects should change there opinion ? Mion (talk) 03:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Already responded to this (please see above for more details). I don't debate how Debian should call their distribution as the previous poster seems to imply, actually my argument about the freedom comes to support the idea that Debian people are free to call their distribution however they want, even a "distribution of Juju OS" if they want so (no requirement to even use Linux in the name), but the point is that neither FSF nor Debian can tell people, or dictionaries, and for that matter Wikipedia, how to call the OS in general (and this discussion is about how we call the OS in general, nobody to my knowledge debated against specific names such as "Debian GNU/Linux", the discussion is about the generic name of the OS and how we refer to the OS in Wikipedia) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 03:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we've covered those six points already, but I'll try to reply very briefly. Linguistic? In the case of GNU/Linux, it has two widely used names. Advertising? No, it's not advertising, it's just accurate labeling. Computer science? No, I don't agree that most operating systems are named after their kernel, I don't agree that the kernel is the most important part (glibc is the essential component - unlike Linux, it can't be replaced), and no I don't agree that the kernel is the most minimal OS - that's not a minimal OS, that's a kernel. Procedure, before GNU/Linux and Linux, the name was GNU. Complete, if that was a priority, the first thing to get mentioned is GNU since it's the largest contribution - mentioning other components is optional and isn't being discussed right now. Freedom, ah, sounds like you're saying we should all be able to used either name (ok, good idea), and then you say you wish the people on the other side would just be quiet. --Gronky (talk) 07:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• "In the case of GNU/Linux, it has two widely used names." -- not true, GNU/Linux is almost never used in dictionaries, media, books, and in general Linux is used at least 10 times more than GNU/Linux. The issues is also not about being used or not, it's about which name is used predominantly. man with one red shoe (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
• "No, it's not advertising, it's just accurate labeling." -- RMS explained very clearly why he came up with the name, so people will know the role of GNU and to promote the its ideology, just a guess, people who insist on GNU/Linux do it because of the same reasons, I rarely seen people so determined to push a minority label only because of accuracy sake... but, yeah I know Wikiepedia has some people who are very determined to preserve accuracy... man with one red shoe (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

RMS's motives have nothing to do with anything. Nobody has invoked his motives as a justification. Because of RMS (regardless of his reasons), there are two terms. One (GNU/Linux) is more accurate, and the other (Linux) is misleading. Wikipedia should thus use "GNU/Linux". --Gronky (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Really, read what other people wrote in this page and in archives "to give credit" is one of the reasons used. That's plain advertising, that's never a good argument in Wikipedia, that's why I presented this counterargument. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I've read most of this page and most of the archives. I don't see "to give credit" as an argument for Wikipedia using "GNU/Linux". I do see 1 (one) use of the word "credit" on this page, by user Paul Beardsell. That user does support use of the name "GNU/Linux", and he does mention once that Stallman deserves credit, but I think it would be putting words in his mouth if anyone were to say he argues that Wikipedia should use that term as a way to credit Stallman. That leaves me not able to find anyone making this argument. So you are arguing that "GNU/Linux" supporters are using bad arguments but your example does not exist. Can you see how I think you are not making a solid case? --Gronky (talk) 21:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Paul Bearsell argument was probably the one that made me think of this argument, but there are also instances in the archive, I will try to copy some if you don't believe me: "In 1983 there was no free operating system. The GNU Project was founded to develop one. Today there are a few. So it is clear who you should pay credit for this. So you can drop all names before GNU. And if you want to shorten it further, drop names from the right side now. This way you get GNU/Linux. Still too long? Shorten further: GNU" from here or "I feel that the article titled Linux should be about the kernel. At the top we could say if you are refering to the GNU/Linux operating system click here. Then have the article about the operating system (most of this article) called GNU/Linux. I fell that the GNU deserve credit for the work they have done on the operating system" here, or... not using the word "credit" but that implied: "Despite the name of the article, the operating system, if required to be named a single thing, would be more appropriately called "GNU". It more than likely would never have existed without GNU." from here, or "the term Linux strictly refers only to the Linux kernel, while the term GNU/Linux should be used otherwise so as to credit the contribution of the GNU project" from here And this are only the instances when the word "credit" is explicitly used, in other cases is implied, but those are harder to search, in any case I think it's pretty clear that this argument has been used in the past, don't accuse me of building straw-men (especially when this is documented), however I requested people who support GNU/Linux to make their own arguments in this page in a clear and concise way exactly so there wouldn't be a confusion why they support the name, I think that would be preferable instead of accusing me of examples that don't exist... especially when they do :) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You've misattributed the quote you took from Archive 3. Those words are not used by anyone to state their opinion on what Wikipedia should do. Rather, it's someone offering a wording to explain, in the article, FSF's position on what people in general should do. The full quote is: According to the Free Software Foundation and others, [...] the term GNU/Linux should be used otherwise so as to credit the contribution of the GNU project.

In any case, if this has been used, it definitely isn't a core or current argument, so since no one's defending it, there's no need for you to argue against it. Let's stick to the points that are being discussed.--Gronky (talk) 11:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• "glibc can't be replaced? What about other libraries: dietlibc, uClibc, Newlib, Klibc and EGLIBC (that's a short list of alternative libraries from glibc article) BTW, isn't it used in BSD and BeOS systems too, should we call them GNU/BSD and GNU/BeOS? And again since when if you use free software you should change the name of your product to reflect the code that you use? man with one red shoe (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

And, ah, where are widely used desktop the distros using those libcs? Even OpenMoko, a specialist small footprint GNU/Linux distro for phone handsets, uses glibc. Those tiny libcs are for toy projects and embedded usage (which is indeed usually just "Linux" rather than "GNU/Linux", and is discussed in the article embedded Linux). And no, BSD does not use glibc. --Gronky (talk) 20:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

And why is that relevant? You made a claim, I showed it's not true. What if people prefer to use glibc, it doesn't need to change the name of the final product, does it? I've never heard of such thing "this product is free, but if you use a specific c library you need to change the name of the final product to give credit to people who build the library" who heard of such things?! -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

And in fact if one looks back on the history of glibc - they would find that an imminent fork of glibc (and thus loosing the GNU name) was one of the reasons that glibc development stopped following the regular GNU guidelines (slow release cycles). Hint: The GPL disallows that you have to call it anything specifically (GPL: "You may make, run and propagate covered works that you do not convey, without conditions so long as your license otherwise remains in force"). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

But, no one made any of thsoe arguments. You're presenting silly ideas and then shooting them down as if it proves something. No one said we have to name things based on any requirement in the GPL. As for the history of glibc, I'm wondering if you missed some of it. The fork wasn't simply immenant - it happened, and it failed, and the kernel hackers ditched their libc work and went back to GNU. --Gronky (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You just made that argument, so someone certainly did. Btw. Richard Stallman also made that argument - which incidentally is the reason that Debian ended up being called Debian GNU/Linux... Because otherwise it was thought that GNU would be forgotten. [17] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I just made what argument? --Gronky (talk) 11:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll quote you: "I don't agree that the kernel is the most important part (glibc is the essential component - unlike Linux, it can't be replaced)". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, Linux (on desktops) uses glibc, so? Since when an operating system is called after the libraries it uses? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No one is discussing naming any operating system after it's libc. The point was that the Linux part of of the operating system is replacable and the GNU part isn't. Thus GNU is the more essential contribution, thus your computer science argument suggests that GNU is the most notable part of the operating system. --Gronky (talk) 21:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I just gave examples of glibc replacements, the fact that people don't prefer a replacement it doesn't mean that glibc "cannot be replaced". Furthermore, we do have example of Linux kernel working as an OS without glibc, even if those are not desktop operating systems they are operating systems, while I haven't heard of an OS running only with glibc without a kernel. Thus the kernel is the minimum OS (that's the kernel in general not only Linux kernel). Libraries are never a minimum operating system, they need a kernel. By saying that Linux is replaceable you ignore the fact that it is replaceable only by another kernel, so it's exactly as I said, glibc can never be an OS without a kernel, while a kernel can work as an OS without glibc The kernel (in general, not only Linux) is the actual operating system, libraries cannot work by themselves as an operating system. Sure, to make an OS useful and convenient you need to add many things, c libraries, user-space tools, etc. but those are not required sine qua non to have an OS running. The kernel allocates hardware resources, manages the memory, processes inputs and outputs, manage tasks, etc. please look in the definition of Operating System to see that this is what an OS does, glibc doesn't do any of that. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• "before GNU/Linux and Linux, the name was GNU." the name of what? No Linux distribution was named GNU, or GNU/Linux they all were initially called "Linux distributions" the term of "GNU/Linux distribution" came afterwords and is less used, and as far as I know there is no distribution that uses Linux called "GNU distribution" This also sounds like original research, please show me an instance of "GNU distribution" that used Linux kernel man with one red shoe (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

During the first 8 years of development, during which it was not complete, the operating system that we today call "GNU/Linux" (which some call "Linux") was called GNU. --Gronky (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You are talking about GNU, I'm talking about the OS that uses Linux as kernel, it was never called GNU and if some distros called themselves "GNU/Linux" (and that's only a minority) it was some time after they were called "Linux" or "Linux distributions" as the Debian letter come to attest. What you don't understand is that GNU code is free and if somebody takes the code and use it is no longer GNU Project, people took GNU code and Linux code and made "Linux distributions" they could have chosen to call them "GNU distributions" but I haven't seen that (mostly because it doesn't make sense from the point of view of computer science to call your OS after libraries and compiler) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• "sounds like you're saying we should all be able to used either name (ok, good idea), and then you say you wish the people on the other side would just be quiet." -- no that's not what I'm saying, you either didn't understand what I was saying or you try to misrepresent, here's exactly what I meant by that: everybody can use whatever name they want, we should use the dictionary form and the term that is mostly used by people, if they use "GNU/Linux" or "Juju OS" then that's the term that we should use in Wikipedia too. Alas, they people, media, dictionaries use "Linux" so... we need to use "Linux" man with one red shoe (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Or the other way around, even in school they teach the correct version [[18]]. And which ICT dictionaries did you check ? Mion (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

And how many links do you want to places where the ICT (which i had never heard of before) just call it Linux? (Linux: 19 vs. 1 for GNU/Linux (hint: its probably the lecturer who writes the text)). Nice job trying to dodge the questions though. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm doing my best to understand you, but the freedom point is not at all clear to me. --Gronky (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It's rather simple, people are free to call derived projects whatever they please (unless there's a clause in the license that requires otherwise), in large majority they chose to call them "Linux" or "Linux distributions", that term stuck, so conform to the first argument that's the "correct" term for the OS, if they would have chosen "GNU" or any other term and if that term was used predominantly then we would use that term in this article, but that's not the case. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Here in the media link below is a non exhaustive but long list of scientific books and publications for 2007 beginning of 2008 that use the term GNU/Linux. The use of this term GNU/Linux in wikipedia is justified.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Media:Gnu_linux_name0708.pdf

This is called cherry-picking. Lets do it some more 204,000 for Linux (alone) 4,510 for GNU/Linux on Google scholar in the computer science category. Get real please! --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Nb: limiting it to 2007,2008 gives us (Linux: 9,300 GNU/Linux: 410). Conclusion: Argumentum Bogusium. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Just out of interest, did you take any steps to prevent mentions talking about the kernel from inflating the "Linux" numbers in that operating system comparison? --Gronky (talk) 21:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I also did searches on Scholar with the exact sentences "GNU/Linux operating system" and "Linux operating system" - it came out with results in exactly the same proportions. (1120 for Linux, 38 for GNU/Linux with 2007/2008 as basis). No matter how you cut the searches, you get similar results. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not a lottery game Petersen. And google is not the judge of any "popularity" contest. The document I gave is only to show that GNU/Linux is a term that is used. It is used by the majority of the scientific community‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› . For that reason it is used and included in many scientific books and publication as well as other encyclopedias. My list is a response to someone above who said that "nobody" used the term GNU/Linux. If you cannot find any better "argument" than trying to give witty sounding names to the arguments of others and play "google number games" please find someone else.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all the "lottery game"/"google number game" was started by you. I've pointed out that scientific sources do not use GNU/Linux in general - in fact they use it pretty much in the same way as the general public. (ie. a select few use GNU/Linux the rest use Linux). I've taken the liberty to put a "citation needed" into your comment - since that is quite a claim - and requires backing. Since noone has claimed that ""nobody" used the term GNU/Linux", i fail to see how you can use it as an excuse.

Either accept that my results are equally useful as your list, or provide an argumentation from a reliable source that supports your "majority of the scientific community" claim. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Please can you show me where somebody said 'nobody' uses GNU/Linux? I'm having a very hard time finding it. What I can see is the same statement being made dozens of times - GNU/Linux is used by a minority, Linux is used by the majority. With no evidence against that assertion and tonnes supporting it.-Localzuk^(talk) 12:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That would probably be my fault, I said "Virtually nobody except for indoctrinated FSF fans use it", I overemphasized in an argument that I made. The main argument however is not that nobody uses it, but that's a minority use, this is the 4th time I think that I repeat this in this page, it's getting tiring... man with one red shoe (talk) 14:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That covers a single aspect of the use of the terms - scientific publications. What about mass media? What about non-scientific books? (ie. Linux for dummies, not GNU/Linux for dummies). Etc... You are trying to say that black is white. Why? The simple fact still remains - there is no authority in naming the OS called Linux, and the majority of the world uses Linux and not GNU/Linux. No-one has countered this argument yet.-Localzuk^(talk) 11:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You want a book with the title GNU/Linux in the for Dummies series??? Well here you are! GNU/Linux for Dummies available from Amazon.--Grandscribe (talk) 11:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

My god, you just pointed out a book about a distro which is actually called 'Debian GNU/Linux for Dummies' - of course it is called that! That is what that distro is called, so if it was called Debian Linux for dummies, they would actually have named the book incorrectly! How about not picking and choosing the minority and actually looking at the majority? ie. a search for 'linux for dummies' on amazon uk [19].-Localzuk^(talk) 11:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Or how about doing comparisons on amazon - 2765 results for Linux (minus GNU and minus kernel) vs 21 results for "GNU/Linux". Still seems pretty clear cut to me!-Localzuk^(talk) 11:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, my argument doesn't claim that GNU/Linux is not used at all, my argument talks about the most used term. Bringing some fringe examples that GNU/Linux is used by some won't invalidate the argument that we need to use the most used term by people, dictionaries, companies, distributions, and media. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 12:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Localzuk, You asked for a book in the for "Dummies series" with GNU/Linux in the title. So there you got it "sir". Do you want more examples with only GNU/Linux? I will bring them. You are so biased against a term that even after showing a long list of scientific publications to whom you can hardly accuse of making "politics and propaganda" for anyone that you ask to see a "for dummies" kind of book with only the name GNU/Linux!! By the way GNU/Linux is a name used by the majority of all the languages in which wikipedia is available. The minority is the handful of users(including you) in the English version of wikipedia who want to remove GNU/Linux. All arguments about following wikipedia policies and "a minority term" are false and contradictory. The other versions of Wikipedia largely use GNU/Linux --Grandscribe (talk) 10:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Unindented 1

(unindent) - I am going to assume good faith and try not to think you are being deliberately petty and obtuse. I stated that the Dummies book for the 'OS called Linux' is called 'Linux for Dummies'. That is all. You then state that there is one in the series called 'Debian GNU/Linux for Dummies' - which is true. And I gave a reason for that. THAT DISTRO IS NOT CALLED DEBIAN LINUX! It is called DEBIAN GNU/LINUX and as such the publisher named their book accordingly. Next, Wikipedia cannot be used as a source. So stop that pointless argument. Finally, the argument about most usage is the most pertinent one, as it has been proven again, and again, and again. You have not proven the opposite. You have simply added more evidence to the proof that the majority of the world uses 'Linux' as the name and not GNU/Linux. Please start reading our posts in full and formulating complete responses that cover all the points. Otherwise I am going to stop assuming good faith and start thinking troll.-Localzuk^(talk) 12:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I will also assume good faith from you. I do read posts in full. Please do the same. It is some who want to remove GNU/Linux who cite "wikipedia" as a source of a certain consensus policy. They contradict themselves when we see that most editors use the term GNU/Linux. Instead the consensus, if there is any, is to use the term GNU/Linux as it is shown by what actually happens in practice throughout the entire wikipedia not just in the English version and for the past few months. The very fact that this RFC is taking place is a proof that there is no such consensus or policy to remove the term GNU/Linux.--Grandscribe (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Please show me where people have shown any evidence from article space? Also, i'll say this again - the other language wikipedias are not suitable for reference here - we don't refer to them, and they don't refer to us. The policies in place in each language are different (ie. they can be completely independant from each other). So, now back to the arguments being presented, which you have still not countered. Please provide evidence to show that the most common term should not be used on wikipedia.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales and a member of the board have declared on this page that they are against this campaign that aims to remove the use of the name GNU/Linux in wikipedia. Their declarations have POLICY STATUS WP:CONEXCEPT--Grandscribe (talk) 15:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Since you've put this in twice - i'm going to copy my answer from above:

And Wales' comment was not a declaration - but a comment, and thus has no policy status at all. This has already been discussed at AN/I here. So i expect you not to try to intimidate or use this again - Ok?

I suggest that you stop this line of argumentation - which even has an essay here Wikipedia:Argumentum ad Jimbonem. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You are duplicating all the arguments in GNU/Linux naming controversy on this talk page.

This is so pointless. 69.196.139.145 (talk) 00:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You can't argue against some clear arguments and you declare them useless, nice try. I personally don't care what arguments were brought against GNU/Linux term in general, my arguments pertain (at least the first 3-4) to why "GNU/Linux" shouldn't be used here, in Wikipedia. I haven't seen yet anything brought forth against my first argument for example. I also brought arguments from different fields: linguistics, computer science, history of the term, and even freedom (since FSF is so big on freedom) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 01:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

There you said one thing that shows your own personal opinion, man with red shoes! You say "why it should not be used" BUT the fact is that GNU/Linux is used in wikipedia and was always used. Most of the articles in wikipedia in all the other languages use GNU/Linux. That was also the case in the English version until a few months ago when a single user backed by a couple arbitrarily decided to remove GNU/Linux. We are not to remove terms just because you do not like the people associated with it. Wikipedia will continue to use the term GNU/Linux--Grandscribe (talk) 10:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Did you actually bother to read what he said? Rather than cherry picking minor points which you can twist in order to try and perform ad-hominem attacks, why not look at the arguments presented and actually provide counter arguments, backed by evidence. As it stands, we have the 'don't use it' side providing clear and concise arguments and what seems to be hot air coming from the other side.-Localzuk^(talk) 10:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I said "should not be used" not because that's a mere opinion of mine, but because that opinion is based on clear arguments (that I don't see anyone refuting) and is backed up by Wikipedia policies. Wikipedia can never be used as a reference (see WP:RS) and past or present use in Wikipedia is clear not a valid argument. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 12:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Localsuk asked me a question. Yes, I read what other people say. First, man with red shoes uses wikipedia as reference saying it is wikipedia policy not to use GNU/Linux.??? (GNU/Linux has been used since the creation of wikipedia). He probably thinks that because in the past few months a single user went around deleting GNU/Linux then it is a wikipedia policy not to use this name??. But you know that Localzuk. You backed that removal in the last RFC. So first he uses wikipedia as reference and then he says that we can never use wikipedia as reference!!!.

GNU/Linux has always been used in wikipedia. Yet the people trying to remove the name call those who don't agree with them "revisionists"?? is that your idea of "clear and concise" argument Localzuk? Until now NO valid and objective arguments have been provided to prove GNU/Linux is not an adequate name to be continued to be used in wikipedia. It's a name widely used in all the other languages of wikipedia! Will you go into the other languages and delete GNU/Linux there too? will you have disputes with the other language editors and start RFC's as you have done here? Will all languages of Wikipedia be forced to remove a name because a handful of users in the English version say so? Excuse me but that is a clear example of "hot air" coming from a minority group. --Grandscribe (talk) 09:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Grandscribe, I am finding you to be very difficult to discuss things with, as you are continually misrepresenting people, misunderstanding plain arguments, and being generally obnoxious. Please stop doing these things!

Wikipedia has a policy in place regarding the use of terms and another on the naming of articles. I couldn't care less if GNU/Linux is used within articles itself, so long as the usage is consistent with the rest of this site, the English Wikipedia. I couldn't care less if other language sites use it either - they are not under discussion here.

The policy for naming articles on this site is that the most commonly used term should be used, unless it is a scientific term which has an authority that states a true and correct name, in which case the correct name should be used and the incorrect name should be a redirect. We don't have an authority, so we have to go with the most common usage - which is undeniably 'Linux'. I hope you can agree that the most common usage is Linux? Regardless of whether you think it is correct or not?

When using terms in the articles, we should be using them so that they are the same as the article on the subject where necessary, so as to reduce confusion of the terms. Is that so difficult to understand? I don't care either way if the world adopts the usage of 'GNU/Linux' but do see it as a pointless self-advertising activity by the GNU people.

Finally, you should stop with your attacks against the people who supported an RFC. People in governments don't hold grudges against due to the way they voted. People elsewhere on this site don't either. To do so is not very helpful. I supported that RFC for the reasons above. I wish to remove confusion and use the most common term. Simple stuff. (The other, policitcal nonsense has no place on WP).-Localzuk^(talk) 12:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

"First, man with red shoes uses wikipedia as reference saying it is wikipedia policy not to use GNU/Linux.???" -- that doesn't make much sense does it? When applying Wikipedia policies is not "using Wikipedia as a reference". You are the one use Wikipedia as a reference when you say something along the lines of "but but but... GNU/Linux has been used in Wikipedia before... but but but... GNU/Linux is used in other languages in Wikipedia" these are unacceptable arguments because they use Wikipedia as a reference, I assume you are smart enough to understand this and not to repeat a flawed argument that doesn't care any weight here. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

man with red shoes, I mentioned wikipedia only after some people who want to remove the term GNU/Linux cited a certain wikipedia "consensus" policy. They contradict themselves when we see that this is not what really happens in wikipedia. As far as everyone knows the other languages in which wikipedia is available are also part of "wikipedia". The majority of those editors, all languages included, agree in the use of GNU/Linux. I am not using wikipedia as reference. It's just pointing to the fact that the majority "consensus" against the term GNU/Linux does not exist in wikipedia. How can someone say there is a wikipedia "consensus" or "policy" to use only the term Linux and not GNU/Linux when all the other language editors use the term GNU/Linux??? --Grandscribe (talk) 14:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You made a clear claim about what I said: "man with red shoes uses wikipedia as reference saying it is wikipedia policy not to use GNU/Linux.???" Where did I say that? I tend to take offense when people put words in my mouth. What other language editors use is irrelevant in English Wikipedia (and in general a bad article doesn't justify another) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

man with red shoes, excuse me. It was not you I meant but another user who made those claims. OK? Now apart from that. Did you just suggest that use of the term GNU/Linux in other languages makes those articles bad? Don't those other language editors reserve respect for their contributions? Aren't they part of wikipedia?--Grandscribe (talk) 15:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I already said this two-three times in this page, the usage in Wikipedia (or non-English Wikipedia) is irrelevant. You can't bring an article from Wikipedia as an argument for or against anything. I'm not going to discuss non-English articles or editors, please stop wasting people time, it's irrelevant what other articles (good or bad) say or use. Period. man with one red shoe (talk) 15:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Grandscribe, anything in Wikipedia space (ie, policies, guidelines, etc...) can be cited as evidence. That is what it is there for. We cannot cite other articles, or other language wikipedia's as evidence. I have not seen anyone other than you citing article space as support for anything.

And once again, you either haven't read what I've said or simply ignored me.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

In addition to this, in another language the term might have different usage, if in other language GNU/Linux is more popular than Linux, then that's the correct term to use in that language (but I actually doubt that's the case, Wikipedia in other languages usually has much less editors per article than English Wikipedia and thus it's far easier to impose a marginal POVs, also it's possible that at some point those articles were translation of old, obsolete articles in EN Wikipedia, bringing those as arguments is plain ridiculous) But in any case, different languages are different because they use different words for the same things (beside having different grammar) so bringing an argument that that's the term used in another language has absolutely no relevance in English Wikipedia. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

First, the productivity in several other wikipedia's is much higher than the EN wikipedia Wikipedia:Productivity_of_Wikipedia_Authors, the rest of the argument is unsourced fantasy. Mion (talk) 18:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Higher "productivity" means there are more articles per person, in case you don't understand this comes exactly to support my assumption that there are fewer people working per article in other languages than in English Wikipedia. I don't see any proof in Wikipedia:Productivity_of_Wikipedia_Authors that there are more users in any language than in English Wikipedia, on the contrary, from what I see there English Wikipedia has more articles than any other Wikipedia and probably more users, again, this is not very important, but I wanted to show that you use flawed arguments.

Also, do you need me to source that other languages use different words than English? And what exactly do you want, do you claim that we need to use Wikipedia as a reference, or that we need to use Wikipedia of different languages as reference to English Wikipedia, please explain... I'm really confused of what you want to achieve by bringing into the discussion other articles in Wikipedia and even articles in other language than English. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 18:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That page shows absolutely nothing relevant to this discussion, nor does it counter any points. What was the purpose of posting it here?-Localzuk^(talk) 13:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

man with red shoes I advise you to read and follow wikipedia policies. During this discussion you have been using expressions that go against wikipedia policies. For example you said: "Virtually nobody except for indoctrinated FSF fans use it". Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks. You also admitted to be "fighting on this page".wikipedia: BATTLEGROUND. --Grandscribe (talk) 08:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It's funny that you become offended by that now after couple of days of discussions... about when you ran out of arguments. But you are right, that's a personal opinion that shouldn't have been voiced here. On the other hand I asked for a summary of arguments for GNU/Linux and I didn't see anybody rushing to write that instead you pick on couple of my words out of hundreds I wrote on this page. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 12:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Quick reply. I am not "offended" at all. It was you who gets easily offended you used that word before. The couple phrases I showed only serve to prove that you came here as you yourself said "was one fighting here". You are constantly making exaggerations like when you call people who use GNU/Linux indoctrinated fans. Can you prove I or anyone else was "indoctrinated"?--Grandscribe (talk) 15:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

How about getting back to real arguments I made, not nitpicking a sentence I wrote among hundreds or discussing who is more offended? I am also not interested to discuss your degree of indoctrination. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Unindented 2

(Unindent) Once again, Grandscribe, you have failed to answer any of the requests made, or provide any evidence supporting your assertions, or countering ours. Instead, you decide to warn someone, in the wrong place, regarding a throw away comment from several places. Please, provide us with some evidence that supports the idea that GNU/Linux is the more correct term (ie. an authority...), that there is more usage of GNU/Linux than just plain 'Linux', that referring to other Wikipedia's is acceptable (I would propose that the majority of the community support the existing guideline telling us not to). Thanks, Localzuk^(talk) 13:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The developers of the most popular free and open source web browser Firefox use the name GNU/Linux. The text comes from their official website:

"You must use GNU make to check out and build Mozilla. No other "make" program is acceptable. On Windows, Mac OS X, and GNU/Linux use "make" to run GNU make; on most non-GNU unixes, use "gmake".

Once you have checked out the source, be sure to configure an application as described on the Configuring Build Options page.

For Windows, Mac OS X, and GNU/Linux, make sure that you are in the top level of the source directory ("mozilla"),..."

Source: Mozilla Developer Center

Then according to man with red shoes' "brilliant" logic Mozilla developers must have also been "indoctrinated".

--Grandscribe (talk) 17:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a wiki page. It's hardly a reliable source. The Mozilla project in general certainly doesn't refer to the OS as "GNU/Linux" as a matter of policy, as can clearly be observed from their download page. Once again you've resorted to cherry-picking arguments as opposed to addressing the key points raised. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

User Thumperward please learn to RESPECT wikipedia polices. What you call "cherry picking" is called citing sources WP:CITE. Stop engaging in incivility WP:CIVILITY. Mozilla developers use the name GNU/Linux. It is a verifiable fact. --Grandscribe (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

And as usual you are misinforming. Sorry. GNU/Linux on mozilla.org: 193 hits - Linux alone on mozilla.org: 28,600 hits. (specifically excluding pages that mention GNU/Linux). At least try to be honest. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

And on developer.mozilla.org its a little better for GNU/Linux 51 vs Linux 1,380. Its a marginal/minority use - just as anywhere else. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, so what somebody uses "GNU/Linux" as my first argument is about the predominant term used by people, companies, etc. You picked on one of the sentence that I wrote in this page, for the record there are people who use GNU/Linux and I won't speculate anymore about their level of indoctrination. Second, it's funny that even this argument that you try to make is flawed, take a look at download link from Mozilla "http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/2.0.0.13/linux-i686/" I don't see any GNU there.... not that would matter too much, but this comes to contradict your claim, at most Mozilla developers don't give a rat's ass how they call the OS. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 18:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not possible to have an honest and productive discussion with users that engage in incivility constantly. It is always the same users. Always the same tone and language. First it was claimed that nobody used GNU/Linux. It was demonstrated that that is not true. Then it was switched to we have to use the name that has the most "hits" in google. No serious and reliable Encyclopedia follows that practice of using google "hits" to decide which name to use for their articles. The fact is that GNU/Linux is a name in use by distributions, teachers and students in Universities around the world, in computer books and scientific publications. The founder of wikipedia himself and members of the board have spoken in favor of using the name GNU/Linux. Yet here we have a handful of users who want to remove the use of this name and engage in incivility and personal attacks against other users who disagree with them. I will only have discussion with users who respect wikipedia policies. --Grandscribe (talk) 18:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, it's not possible to have an honest discussion with people like you who bring back again and again and again and again refuted arguments, arguments against straw-men (if you want to respond to real arguments see my 6 arguments for not using GNU/Linux and respond to those, I've never said there that GNU/Linux is not used by anybody), who constantly try to use Jimbo as a club -- please stop it, it becomes really annoying, understand once and for all that he has an opinion like anybody else, like you and me Frankly since I see your history I think you are a single purpose account, most likely somebody who was banned before for the same inept way of carrying a discussion. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 19:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone supposed to have an "honest" discussion with a user like this one above??? --Grandscribe (talk) 13:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh wow. I blink and this lot happens. Have you answered the questions or provided evidence that GNU/Linux is either correct (ie. there is an authority) or the predominant term Grandscribe? No. Please answer the questions or present some new arguments as to why common sense and our existing rules regarding naming shouldn't be followed. Also, stop accusing others of incivility when you fail to provide any arguments. They are simply calling you out on your constant cherry picking of random things - in most cases you are simply engaging in ad-hominem attacks.-Localzuk^(talk) 19:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Localzuk, there is no existing rule that the name GNU/Linux cannot be used. Could you show it to us here? where does it say that using GNU/Linux is against any existing wikipedia rule??? Why can't a distribution like gNewSense or Debian be described as a GNU/Linux distribution? There is no such a "rule". The rants by the user with red shoes are clear examples of incivility. Not happy with that he tried to delete my post from this page and was reverted. Check the history of this discussion.--Grandscribe (talk) 13:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop with the ad-hominem attacks. If you have problems with the behaviour of any editors, there are plenty of places where that can be dealt with. Going on about it here simply lowers your credibility. Your behaviour is starting to look very much like that of a previously banned user, and further attacks will lead me to present a case for check-user against you.

The rule that exists is that of our naming conventions - to use the most commonly used term to describe things, unless it is factually incorrect and can be proven so by an authority (ie. a manufacturer). That has been linked to multiple times. The other rule is that of common sense - which is better for the average reader? Which is the least confusing? Now, sure there isn't a policy titled Wikipedia:GNU/Linux or Linux but we can piece together what should be done from all the above mentioned policies, guidelines and other arguments.

My questions still have not been answered though. Please answer them, or admit that GNU/Linux is not a the most predominant term or the 'correct' term.-Localzuk^(talk) 14:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

My questions have not been answered neither. Where is that naming convention that allows any editor to delete the name GNU/Linux as is being tried now with the article (gNewSense) that has originated this RFC? Speaking of common sense. Who decided that deleting GNU/ from GNU/Linux is more common sense? Are you referring to the previuos RFC where you and two other users decided to do that to follow your project?

By the way your warnings would be better aimed at the user who has even deleted comments from this page and engages in incivility. If you continue to make this kind of threats in defense of that user I will have to present my case against him and you.WP:BITE --Grandscribe (talk) 15:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"Who decided that deleting GNU/ from GNU/Linux is more common sense?" -- Wikipedia is not an elitist project, it doesn't matter who or how many (it's not a democracy either), it matters why, Localzuk explained why, my 6 points also explain why, do you have any problem with our arguments? Also, please explain why GNU/Linux should be used, I already called for those arguments to be made, open a new tread and explain the reasons point by point as I did. man with one red shoe (talk) 15:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Present away Grandscribe. And also, just so you know, responding to questions with questions doesn't make much sense when you haven't actually presented any arguments to support your wishes yet.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and the edit that was removed would make sense to be removed really, as it is simply a rant against users, a rant about what you think an encyclopedia should contain and is simply an attack on people. Removing it would have been kinda justified under the talk page guidelines, if a bit controversial.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I removed it because I found it disruptive, it was not an argument or counter-argument related to the current discussion, as Localzuk said, it was just a rant against editors, probably against me and Localzuk. As you witness this discussion turned from discussing arguments to discussing editors, that's something that we should avoid. man with one red shoe (talk) 15:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's make it clear. The use of profane language by user man with red shoes to refer to the comments by others and to call them "indoctrinated" and "inept" plus his acts of biting a new userWP:BITE are the main and only reason for any "disruption" in this discussion as anyone can witness. It's well documented on this page with dates & timestamps included. That's all. --Grandscribe (talk) 10:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Ham Pastrami

It is my belief that the phrase "GNU/Linux" is something that is inherently political. It has exactly one origin, the FSF, and one purpose, to promote an FSF project. If not for the advocacy that has already been carried out on Wikipedia and elsewhere on the internet, I would even judge that WP:NEO clearly suggests to stop to using this phrase. It's not like this was a naturally-occuring variation on the name "Linux"; it was manufactured by the FSF and spread by FSF advocates. Prior to this invention, everybody called it "Linux". The idea that the use of "Linux" is "POV pushing" is ironic. The very purpose of "GNU/Linux" is to push POV. Indeed, the same can be said of other famous inventions by the FSF, such as "free software", which the rest of the world knows as "open source". I know the FSF has supporters that are both numerous and vocal; but as Wikipedians we should have the balls to follow our own established policies and guidelines with respect to these neologisms, even if Wikipedia uses them (the F in GFDL). Now, that said, I don't agree with unilateral enforcement, and I think that has harmed the discussion by polarizing opinions and making "GNU/Linux" advocates feel like they are on fighting a defense. However, I do think that if we looked at this debate rationally, the logical conclusion would be to stop FSF propaganda. Because it is propaganda, no matter how well-intentioned. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

"POV pushing is a term used on Wikipedia to describe the aggressive promotion of a particular point of view, particularly when used to denote the promotion of minor or fringe views. While calling someone a "POV-pusher" is always uncivil, even characterizing edits as POV-pushing should be done carefully. It is generally not necessary to characterize edits as POV-pushing in order to challenge them".WP:POVPUSH--Grandscribe (talk) 10:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

"POV pushing is a term used on Wikipedia to describe the aggressive promotion of a particular point of view, particularly when used to denote the promotion of minor or fringe views." -- I don't know about others, but to me this looks like a good fit to what happens here, I couldn't describe it better. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 13:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for arguments from "GNU/Linux" proponents

I've presented as well as I could arguments for using "Linux" term in Wikipedia, I know that people who support the usage of GNU/Linux in Wikipedia brought some arguments in these long discussions but it's hard to find them among so many things that have been said, it would be interesting to see arguments enumerated in a concise and clear way here. So please present your arguments why Wikipedia should use "GNU/Linux" term over "Linux" when talking about "Operating systems that use Linux kernel". -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the position that Wikipedia should use "GNU/Linux" term over "Linux" is for a later debate. The current debate is focussed on whether Wikipedia should have a policy against "GNU/Linux". Opposing an anti-"GNU/Linux" policy is quite different to proposing an anti-"Linux" policy. --Gronky (talk) 20:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It isn't about having a policy preventing the use of a term - it is about using the current policies the same for this term as we use for other terms. Either way, the request man with one red shoe made still applies - please provide reasons why GNU/Linux should be used.-Localzuk^(talk) 20:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah... but, if you don't oppose the use of the term "GNU/Linux", then where's the need for me to provide arguments for allowing the use of the term "GNU/Linux"? --Gronky (talk) 21:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Because the rules that already exist state that we should be consistent, and use the most popular terms. You are needing to provide justification as to why we should go against these prior policies.-Localzuk^(talk) 21:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I still don't see a straight answer there, but your tone is one of disagreement, so you do oppose the use of the term "GNU/Linux"? --Gronky (talk) 23:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It isn't a case of opposing its usage. I support the usage of the most commonly used term, or the correct term according to an authority (which there isn't in this case), in line with existing guidelines and practice. You have to justify why we should start confusing the situation with a minority term.-Localzuk^(talk) 23:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, no straight answer. Based on your positions, I'll assume that when you say "the most commonly used term", you mean "Linux", so your sentence should say "I support the usage of 'Linux'". That's fine, but I haven't argued that "Linux" should be banned (I've just argued that "GNU/Linux" should be allowed). So, if you mean what you say, then we don't disagree, so how can I convince you of anything? Are you sure you said what you mean? --Gronky (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I oppose the usage of GNU/Linux on Wikipedia in any circumstance other than on articles about the term or on articles such as Debian GNU/Linux which contain the term as part of a product name, unless I see some arguments that can convince me to break with the pre-existing practice of using the most common terminology (ie. Linux) in line with guidelines.-Localzuk^(talk) 18:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that at this point the situation is like this: you have arguments or you don't. I've made 6 arguments for not using GNU/Linux and using Linux in Wikipedia (if they are good or bad arguments we can discuss it in that section) it would be nice if people who support GNU/Linux would make a case why should we use a term that is not used by majority of people, companies, media, books, distributions. Or they should bring some proof that that is wrong and the term is used by the majority of people. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 00:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try to form a list, but I can't commit to a deadline. There's only so much time I can give to this Rfc and my time's being drained by having to start every comment by objecting to being asked a loaded question. --Gronky (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, take your time, but I don't think you are the only GNU/Linux proponent on Wikipedia, somebody else can take the task of writing a list of arguments. And by the way I don't consider it's a loaded question, I support using "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux" in all the places except for distro names (at least that's what I argued) therefore in my view if you use "GNU/Linux" it means that you chose it over "Linux" so that's why there is a need to argue why you prefer that variant. Basically I argued why "Linux" should be preferred over "GNU/Linux" in Wikipedia, you or other people need to argue why "GNU/Linux should be used over Linux" or, if you prefer, why it would make sense to use it alongside with Linux (and in which contexts) if that's what you support. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The question is "loaded" in that you've asked it again despite it having been asked multiple times and despite the arguments already given in this RFC and the endless discussions before it, that you choose to ignore. Any observer will see a pattern and a strategy: after a while people get tired of answering the same question and "silently agree" and are "in consensus" with whatever your own stance is. 62.63.162.71 (talk) 20:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, the arguments that have been presented previously have been mixed so much with personal opinion now that it is hard to differentiate the wheat from the chaff.-Localzuk^(talk) 20:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, I want a summary of the position, as I provided, I think it's only fair. I didn't just say "you ignored 10 pages of archive, look there for all the arguments" -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Summary of why people reject anti-"GNU/Linux" policies

I better be clear about what I'm summarising.

I have drawn arguments from the nine editors who seem to not support setting a Wikipedia policy prohibiting the name "GNU/Linux" for the operating system in question. (I.e. these editors: Mako, Gronky, Mion, Jimbo Wales, Grandscribe, Bardcom, AVRS, Iambus, parasti.)

I haven't drawn from the comments of the nine editors who seem to support such a policy. (I.e. these editors: Thumperward, Man with one red shoe, BradV, Localzuk, Kim D. Petersen, Mike92591, Writtenonsand, Warren, Ham Pastrami.)

Obviously, some in the latter list will agree with some of these points, and some in the first list will disagree with some of these points. But here goes:

• No consensus. Wikipedia is written by a community that makes decisions on a consensus basis. There is no consensus for setting a policy prohibiting contributors from using the name "GNU/Linux". There was no real consensus before, and this Rfc shows very clearly that there is no consensus now. --Gronky (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
• Inclusion/friendliness. Wikipedia is written by well-intentioned volunteers who give up their free time to write this free learning resource. Changing other people's terminology annoys and frustrates some contributors. Wikipedian's must avoid frustrating other contributors who have not violated any policy. Just be nice to each other and let's all get on with writing articles --Gronky (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
• Truth in labeling. The subject of this article, in >99% of use cases, is made of the GNU system plus the Linux kernel with the latter being the larger contribution.[20] The name "Linux" misleads readers about what is being talked about. --Gronky (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
• GNU is the most essential. While Linux can be swapped out of this OS, GNU cannot be. --Gronky (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
• Consistency not essential. Consistency is not a fundamental value of Wikipedia and it is not worth losing contributors over (and probably not even worth the hundreds of person-hours that this Rfc has caused Wikipedians to divert to this discussion). All other things being equal, consistency is good, but if all things were equal, we wouldn't be having this discussion. --Gronky (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
• GNU/Linux is a widely used name. I will point out the WP:COMMONNAMES only applies for a name "that does not conflict with the names of other people or things", which clearly is not the case for "Linux". I won't get into numbers games, I'll just say that GNU/Linux is a sufficiently widely used name to be ok for use in Wikipedia. --Gronky (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, there's 6 arguments. --Gronky (talk) 19:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, in order:

1. There was a consensus before, else the RFC wouldn't have been closed. And if people opposed it then they could have dealt with it then and there. However, that doesn't mean that that means a consensus then means that it is forever. As you say, that is evident by this discussion. However, that doesn't mean that a consensus requires a majority - it just requires that one set of arguments far outweighs the other.
2. We don't make policy based on whether or not it upsets people. This is a very weak argument.
3. Truth? Is this some special way of saying 'correct'? It doesn't mislead anyone, as it refers simply to the OS, which most people understand.
4. That is not true - that is simply your opinion. Neither GNU or Linux are essential, and as such neither can be used as the argument to support either name's usage.
5. It isn't essential, but it is valuable.
6. It doesn't 'conflict' with any other majorly used name. It conflicts with GNU/Linux, which is a name used by a fringe group (and therefore all the other arguments presented go against it too).

It just still seams to me that the weight of the arguments for not using GNU/Linux still outweigh the arguments for its usage.-Localzuk^(talk) 22:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

1. That old Rfc closed due to lack of interest. I agree with your definition of what consensus requires, and I see no "Linux" argument standing up to any scrutiny. I see plenty of reasonable wikipedians disagreeing with the "Linux" arguments, and some even arguing well, to the contrary, that use of "Linux" should be advised against.
2. I'll explain this a different way: The GNU/Linux side of the debate having slightly better points is not sufficient justification for a policy banning use of "Linux" for the operating system. And vice versa, were the case true. Even though I prefer the name "GNU/Linux", I still agree with not rushing to create policy since because preserving the sanity, tempers, and happiness of the contributors is more important than aiming for immediate perfection in any one terminology issue.
3. ("Truth in labeling" was just a cultural reference to some campaigns by consumer organisations.) "Linux" is misleading. People hear/know that Linus wrote Linux, or that Linux was written in 1991, or that the closest thing Linux has to a coordinating organisation is The Linux Foundation, and then when WP uses that word to discuss the OS, readers can't know what's being talked about.
4. Linux has been replaced from the OS at least by Nexenta and as an option in Debian and Gentoo, while the same hasn't been done to GNU by any such distro.
5. It's just not worth creating a hostile environment over.
6. Doesn't conflict with any other majorly used name? There's a very famous project by Linus Torvalds which uses the name "Linux"!

So there you go. Hope that's clearer. A name-should-be-Linux policy simply isn't supported by good arguments, and it's opposed by plenty of reasonable wikipedians, so there's no reason for making a hostile environment in this community project. --Gronky (talk) 14:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

1. "Lack of interest" is not the reason for your continued ignorance of the previous RfC. You've repeatedly simply ignored past discussion, or disingenuously claimed not to be able to find it, and avoided directly addressing points made. Again, here, you're repeating your primary points despite their having been continuously rebutted in the replies above.
2. Nobody is "rushing" to make policy. This is a formal process brought about due to a long-term project disagreement. And it stands to reason that you don't believe that any resolution should prevent your own POV from being expressed in various corners of the encyclopedia, but as previously stated our naming policy is not circumvented simply for the sake of not offending various partisans.
3. This claim has been debunked above. The term is not misleading as the various definitions are adequately addressed at the start of the article. Furthermore, the term "GNU/Linux" is not a disambiguating term; it's a political one. Were it merely a more accurate term then there would be no objection to its use in the general case.
4. This is a ludicrous argument. Quite aside from Solaris being the most common vector for GNU software installation before there even was a Linux, the article is about the current deployment of an extant operating system which unquestionably contains the Linux kernel. This is not an article about free operating systems in general, even though all of those have contained a degree of GNU code for over a decade. So neither of the "two components" have been widely displaced. Regardless of this, the mere existence of GNU code in the OS does not provide any basis for naming the composite according to the wishes of the GNU project, as painstakingly discussed above.
5. The only way to neutrally resolve conflict is through policy and established convention. Without policy to fall back on, parties pushing the minority position here have consistently encouraged conflict through soapboxing, canvassing sympathetic editors and forum-shopping. I fail to see how this can be resolved without a formal conclusion.
6. WP:COMMONNAME contains several guidelines to help with picking naming for articles. It is not simply to be discarded in the case where the most common name is ambiguous. The arguments given within indicate that the current naming convention is acceptable.

The "plenty of reasonable wikipedians" argument is bogus as well. This isn't a head count, and as previously noted the individuals making arguments on the GNU side include high-profile employees and colleagues of the FSF as well as at least one blocked sockpuppet right now. We go by discussion, not by tallying up votes. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't have much to add to the arguments made by Chris and Localzuk, only that

• Inclusion/friendliness I've never heard of "not disappointing" a group of users being used as valid argument for supporting edits till now. Also, the framing of the discussion as "GNU/Linux doesn't replace Linux term" is false. It's a clear choice, we either use Linux or we use GNU/Linux, thus one term replaces the other, how is promoting one over the other going to be "inclusive" is beyond my understanding.
• Consistency not essential I think that actually consistency is important. I think that we need a policy for keeping peace, actually it's the Linux - GNU/Linux constant bickering that is bound to provoke more infighting and revert wars than a clear policy regarding the usage of the terms. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 21:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I can't find anyone saying your quoted text "not disappointing". Maybe the reason you've never heard anyone making the argument is that nobody ever has? I don't see how this helps the discussion. --Gronky (talk) 08:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The exact quote was "Wikipedian's must avoid frustrating other contributors", from yourself above. MWORS's paraphrasing has the same meaning. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The meanings are clearly different, but we shan't get into teaching each other English. The point is that rules often add complexity which creates a barrier to entry for new contributors. We must keep complexity to the minimum necessary.

...but the lack of support or good arguments for GNU purging makes this point moot anyway. --Gronky (talk) 11:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Picking on words, are you? I used "not disappointing" because that was how I interpreted your argument, it was not meant to be a direct quote, if my interpretation was wrong let me use your words then, so you can't pick on mine: you said "annoys and frustrates" -- again, I haven't heard anybody using that as a valid argument for supporting edits (because the revert of the edits would annoy or frustrate users). man with one red shoe (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

We disagree with each other's arguments, and there's no sign of that changing. There's also no sign that, at this stage, either of us is swaying the general opinion in either direction. This doesn't seem productive anymore. So, the status is that we had a lively debate with good levels of participation. One group supported "Linux" and another supported "GNU/Linux". Neither group is stupid, neither group's opinions are baseless, and neither group is unwelcome on Wikipedia. There is no clear mandate for requiring GNU/Linux terminology, and no clear manadate for requiring Linux terminology. --Gronky (talk) 12:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

When there are groups with divergent interests we only need to apply Wikipedia's policies. There's clear mandate for requiring Linux terminology and there's no clear mandate requiring GNU/Linux that was the argument about and I think it was pretty well established that that's the case. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 13:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You and a few others think the policy clearly mandates "Linux", I and a few others think the policy clearly mandates "GNU/Linux", and others have pointed out that the policy isn't very helpful because it doesn't support either side. (A few weeks ago, i'd've replied by saying how the policy supports my arguments and how it doesn't support your arguments, but as I said earlier today, we're making no progress in convincing each other or anyone else of these things.) --Gronky (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This is false. Of the six points you raised:

1. The first is self-perpetuating. There can't be consensus because you disagree. As you're never going to agree, the only way to gain any traction on this debate is to appeal to policy.
2. Points 2 through 5 are fluff, not policy. These arguments may have useful points in them, but you can't say that "policy mandates X" with four arguments which have nothing to do with policy.
3. Point 6 is just a deliberately misreading of WP:NAME.

I'm going to move to a final statement on this. We've been at it for enough time to get everyone's arguments out now. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not about me disagreeing, it's about many people (possibly most people) disagreeing. The idea simply does not have support.

Policy says to be accurate and be unambiguous. For applying policy to this discussion, I guess the two Wikipedia board members who joined this discussion (Jimbo and Benjamin Mako Hill) can be assumed to have a reasonable knowledge of Wikipedia policy, and they both said that removing "GNU/Linux" terminology was against Wikipedia policy.

I don't know if moving to final statement is an official part of Rfc. If there's external commentators involved, please try to keep bias out of what is sent to them as a pointer to this discussion. --Gronky (talk) 09:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Controversy Section

User Man with one red shoe has deleted the entire section on the GNU/Linux naming controversy in this article. I asked him on his talk page to get consensus here for this edit, but he has not done so yet, so I am asking: Does the naming controversy warrant mention in the article, or is the link in the lead section sufficient? —BradV 21:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see reason to remove that section. --Gronky (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

So it's not just me then. I've restored it. —BradV 21:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all you didn't ask me to take this to talk page, you said this "wait until the discussion on the talk page has run its course", there was no discussion on talk page about this section, now that you opened the discussion you could have waited for me to give a reply... man with one red shoe (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a link to controversy in the lead section. I think any further discussion about the name should be in controversy article, otherwise it's simply a matter of WP:WEIGHT, we don't need to discuss too much about a issue like this one, that's why there's a separate article, to have the issue treated there, not to clutter this article with "controversies".... man with one red shoe (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this Talk page plus the controversy article establishes that it's worth a paragraph :) If we were to delete all sections from this article that have their own article, most of the article would be gone. --Gronky (talk) 22:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That would not be a bad idea, I think most of the stuff should be in Linux kernel and Linux distribution pages. The name is mentioned the controversy article is linked, why have a separate section about "controversy" how is that not WP:WEIGHT, since this article is about Linux not about controversies? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Noteworthiness: As Gronky mentions, given the amount of discussion above and elsewhere about what to call it, it seems the topic is pretty noteworthy.

Topicality: The naming "issue" is about Linux. How is that not relevant in an article also about Linux? Why would it belong in the kernel or distribution page? Edit: Oh, sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote. 18:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that the issue is noteworthy and about Linux itself, I think there are a couple of reasonable options:

• Per the Wikipedia:Summary_style guideline, we could have a paragraph summarizing the issue here, with a link to the main article. This is how the article was, until it was removed.
• Alternately, we could discuss it in a few sentences in the "Copyright and naming" section and have a "See also" link.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 02:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Refactoring with Linux kernel

This article and Linux kernel cover a lot of the same ground. The Linux kernel article is mostly a superset of this article, with the addition of some technical and versioning information.

I suspect it got this way because of the dual duty that "Linux" performs: "Linux"-as-a-kernel and "Linux"-as-an-operating-system. I'm aware of the distinction and the synecdoche... Given the content of this article, I think that sections 1-3 of Linux kernel mostly belong here. Thought I'd seek opinions before I do some refactoring.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 18:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I'm a bit late on this. My opinion is that the History section of Linux kernel should focus on technical details, and the History section of this article should focus on social aspects, personalities, marketshare, mindshare, that sort of thing. As of today it looks mostly okay, but the kernel article needs more detail! Think of it like this... when someone non-technical is going to read about Linux for the very first time, what do you suppose they would find most interesting? The size of the code-base? Version numbers? Of course not... that sort of thing is suitable for a sub-article. As to sections 2 and 3 of the kernel article, I agree with you... they could probably be chopped out so that that article can focus on the technical details of the kernel itself, something Wikipedia still doesn't cover very well. -/- Warren 17:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree re. technical details vs. personalities, marketshare, etc. Re-reading the history section of the kernel article I see you're right about it being pretty technical, so it makes sense to stay there.

I'll work on the other sections as I have time, which (of course) is in short supply.  :) I'd invite anyone else to take a stab at it.

Thanks for your thoughts. WalterGR (talk | contributions) 17:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

One possibility, it seems, would be to refactor this such that Linux is a disambiguation page pointing to Linux kernel and Linux operating system, the latter of which would also have redirect page GNU/Linux and would begin with: The Linux operating system or GNU/Linux is a computer operating system .... --FOo (talk) 03:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, that's a good solution to start with, later on we can have a discussion about placing a GNU/Linux link on the DP or not,it covers the main issue of duplicated content.Mion (talk) 23:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight to minority terms. I'd encourage users who haven't already done so to participate in the RfC if they feel that the main article should not remain at Linux. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the term GNU/Linux is a minority term whichever way you look at it, and policy/guidelines are quite clear on this issue.-Localzuk^(talk) 13:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Underdog

Re:

As an operating system underdog, Linux aims for interoperability with other operating systems and established computing standards. - emphasis mine.

Is it because it's an underdog? I suspect it's because of the open source philosophy and practice - it's not controlled by a commercial entity with an interest in restricting compatibility. I suspect it should be removed for POV, but I'll leave it for someone who knows the subject. --Chriswaterguy talk 08:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Ascribing "aims" to Linux is nonsense to begin with, and ascribing motives behind those aims is even more nonsense. (It's also pure WP:OR, or rather, someone casting their own personal anthropomorphism of Linux as fact.)

The Linux kernel project has a leader who can express goals, but the Linux system as a whole is anarchic and has no such thing. Sure, there are all sorts of compatibility projects out there that can in some sense be described as parts of "Linux" that aim at interoperability, such as Samba and Wine. But your average LAMP Web programmer, Postfix mail system admin, or embedded systems developer doesn't give a shit. --FOo (talk) 08:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Meh. I'd argue that the "Linux community", such as it exists, favours interoperability in the way described. However, the underdog characterisation came from a large edit set translated from the French version of this article and may not be appropriate. If the specific claim can't be sourced it should be reworded. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, you might argue such. But that would be an instance of original research. :) The "underdog" characterization is nonsense to begin with; in several relevant markets, Linux is the dominant player these days. --FOo (talk) 04:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I'm happy for the characterisation to be removed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed it couple of days ago, sorry I didn't left a note here. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

NewTux != official mascot

The glass looking Tux is not the official kernel mascot, we'd better use original Tux.svg 81.209.224.169 (talk) 23:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and what's going on with the beak in the "new" one? It looks flattened. --FOo (talk) 04:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Glossy tux is not an official Linux logo. It is drastically different from the official Tux used on kernel.org and created by Larry Ewing. I suggest it be changed. --AM088^(talk) 06:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The official logos are those on kernel.org and gnu.org. --212.247.27.19 (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Only Tux?

Initially, I want to say that this article is fascist since it calls the whole operating system "Linux" and not "GNU/Linux". Linux is nothing more than a kernel and it has its own article. However, since this article is about the operating system GNU/Linux, why is it only Tux up there? Why isn't a Gnu head there also? --212.247.27.19 (talk) 15:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Because we are a bunch of fascists, that's why. Way to try to contribute by offending editors of the article. Please read the archives to see why the article is called how it is called. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that you are a bunch of fascists. However, why shall I read the archives which discusses the name? It was the logo that was bothering me. GNU's logo should also be there. This policy is just confusing like the policy of calling it "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux" which is the real name. --212.247.27.19 (talk) 17:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

This is your only warning -- lobbing accusations at editors because you don't like the contents of an article is a very fast way to get blocked. If you can't present your thoughts respectfully, you aren't welcome here. -/- Warren 17:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay then, you are not fascists. However, I still have a question which waits for answers. --212.247.27.19 (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I think this is a good question. The above Rfc is probably draining the time of most editors, so I wouldn't be surprised if people didn't have the energy for this discussion right now, but I think you're right that there should be a GNU head up there. --Gronky (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Finally some sympathy! Thanks! If we are many enough who agrees, we should add it. What can stop us? --212.247.27.19 (talk) 17:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, now should I add it? --212.247.27.19 (talk) 14:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen the GNU logo used to advertise or refer to the OS 'Linux'. Adding it would be adding undue weight per WP:NPOV.-Localzuk^(talk) 19:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Localzuk! I've seen the GNU logo used to advertise or refer the the OS 'Linux'. It is at www.gnu.org. They do not call it 'Linux' but since we are obviously talking about the same OS, it is appropriate to add the gnu head. --212.247.27.19 (talk) 21:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

GNU.org is a self source on this subject and can't be used as evidence to support its usage with regards to the naming or iconography used to advertise Linux. Please provide third party evidence. The issue is that whereas some people call Linux, GNU/Linux, there are even fewer who use the GNU logo with the product, and therefore using it would be a fringe of of a minority - so wouldn't be acceptable under either undue weight rules or verifiability rules.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

You said that you hadn't seen the GNU logo used to advertise or refer to the OS. Well, now you have at gnu.org. --212.247.27.19 (talk) 21:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

• sigh* Please don't engage in ridiculous arguments. I am pointing out that the logo is not used by anyone else *other than GNU* to advertise the OS. It is pretty obvious that GNU themselves will use their own logo, so any arguments saying that are plain redundant. We need third party usage-Localzuk^(talk) 23:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Linux Day

If Linux had a day, which day would it be? What was the release day of the kernel 1.0?

'fraid this isn't for us to decide, and Talk: pages are only really for discussing how to improve the article, so don't be surprised if this doesn't generate the discussion you're expecting :-/ --Gronky (talk) 14:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Spam

The User:87.196.224.160 is probably a kind of spammer. Look at his edits. He also added the same picture to other language variants (I have checked cs, de and fi). A screenshot added by him/her is not illustrative. Miraceti (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with those edits. Of course you may disagree that the picture is useful. --MarSch (talk) 13:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Screenshot

I will add a screenshot of ubuntu, since it is probably the most known Linux distribution and the most used, I think that would help people see more clearly what Linux is... discuss here. 87.196.141.213 (talk) 17:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, a GNOME-desktop. The GNU Network Object Model Environment. :-) --212.247.27.19 (talk) 21:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

What most people call it is not essential

If most people call George W. Bush only Bush, should we change the name of that article to just "Bush"? No. And therefore, this article should be called GNU/Linux. --212.247.27.19 (talk) 12:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course. See Wikipedia manual of style: "the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known", see also for example: "Bill Clinton" that's the article name, not "William Jefferson Clinton". However this is a false comparison an OS is not a person, doesn't have middle name, nicknames, or titles. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 15:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

That an OS is not a person is plain enough to me (the converse is a question for the cognitive science disciplines) but the OS *does* have nicknames, and that is the argument in question. Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, a key thing to remember with this is that there is an authority which can show the 'correct' name for Bush - his Birth Certificate and he himself. Linux does not have such an authority.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

But most people call him only Bush. --212.247.27.19 (talk) 21:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

If it were true that "most people call him only Bush", and if the name "Bush" were so associated with him that the first thing a regular reader associated with the word "bush" was not a shrubbery but "George W. Bush", and if Bush didn't have a birth certificate and for some reason wasn't in a position to verify the correct form of his own name, then your analogy would be sound. As-is, you demonstrated immediately that you don't understand Wikipedia's naming policies, and a prominent example which closely matches your own analogy was quickly found to support the position of your detractors. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

rules for persons don't apply for industrial products, if company x gives a name to a product than thats the name for the product, and is there a policy on wikipedia that we are allowed to change product names ?.Mion (talk) 00:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no "Linux OS" product, only different distributions that use (most of them) "[...] Linux" and few of them "[...] GNU/Linux" -- man with one red shoe (talk) 13:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The name Linux was given to the kernel by Torvalds. The name GNU was given to the GNU operating system by the Free Software Foundation. Linux was never meant to be an operating system. Torvalds isn't stupid and obviously acknowledges that Linux is "a minuscule part of a complete system" (I'm paraphrasing). GNU was always meant to be a complete system. The GNU manifesto from 1985 explains this. If anything this article should be called GNU! The fact that it uses a kernel which wasn't originally part of the complete GNU system is really just a piece of trivia. Do Mac users run Mach? No. They run OSX. Only a handful of people care that the kernel is actually called Mach.

GNU could switch to a different kernel (ie. the hurd) today and no GNU users would even notice! Linus acknowledges this too. Likewise, you could switch to Busybox or something, you would still be using Linux, but it's a completely different operating system. GNU is an operating system. Linux is a kernel. Nobody knows about the kernel. Most people know about the operating system. -- Borb (talk) 15:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Your mileage may vary. I usually know what my computers are running. And I call it Linux. --Alvestrand (talk) 20:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

You seem to confuse user interface with operating system. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

We appear to be recycling arguments again.-Localzuk^(talk) 23:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

User interface? What are you referring to? bash? X? Gnome, KDE? emacs? All of these are completely independant of both Linux and GNU. -- Borb (talk) 01:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"GNU" could switch to whatever kernel the GNU project wanted to, but seeing as the modern OS is highly dependent on Linux-centric device drivers and middleware like D-Bus and HAL which is primarily developed for Linux-based distros, I dare say the majority of the imagine "GNU" userbase would notice that their computers became unusable. It's trivial to prove this by pointing out that non-Linux GNU vendors have marginal community acceptance at this stage and don't appear to be making any inroads. And it should be pointed out that Linux was too meant to be a complete OS in the style of Minix, which is trivially provable by reading the damned release announcement. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

linux's various OS's compatibility article

although i study IT, i don't have the good knowledge of these OS's. it's mainly because of the applications software available in the Internet are not at all compatible with them. if anyone knows better about this can you please start a related article about it? by the way, not just the application software, but also the games, the utility programs, drivers, multimedia program, audio/video codecs and more to make a more comprehensive article. share what you know from these OS's. thanks.
Xmlv (talk) 12:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for consensus: Neither the Linux nor the GNU articles should be merged

I personally refer to the operating system I run on my computer as GNU. But it is quite clear that both the Linux and GNU articles stand alone.

• Linux can exist without GNU, e.g., μClinux.
• GNU can exist as GNU Hurd without Linux.

So, without making any judgment about whether the success of the combination of GNU and Linux should be included on the GNU page or the Linux page, can we have a consensus that GNU and Linux refer to specific projects run by different people, and they should not be merged into each other?

If there is consensus I would like to move all of the arguments above to a talk archive because they are based on the misconception that the page should be moved from Linux to GNU/Linux which is not going to happen. Shii (tock) 20:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think there would be some unsolved issues, for example when distributions use "GNU/Linux" term how do we link, do we link like this GNU/Linux or like this GNU/Linux and then redirect to GNU or Linux? What about Linux distribution? Will we move Linux kernel to Linux? You see there are some problems... I personally like this idea because I don't like the idea of generic "Linux OS" or "GNU/Linux OS" since there is no such thing, there is a Linux kernel, then there are some Linux distributions and GNU software, but there's no generic Linux OS per se, we can talk about Mac OS X or Windows Vista, but just as in case of Linux we can't talk about a generic Mac OS or Windows OS, even though there are far less variants and there is only a vendor for each, in case of Linux there are 400+ distributions and that many companies and groups and each of them is different in some way. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 21:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is asking for the articles to be merged. The above discussion is perfectly valid. Please re-read the original point of discussion. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Page looks like it got vandalised "Lunix"/"Linux" so did search/replace Grahamatwp (talk) 14:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This article should not be addressing an operating system at all

Hey.

Linux is not an operating system. It is a kernel, nobody can deny this. Yes lazy people might call it an OS (OS = Operating system, being used from now on), but the software Linux IS a kernel, it will never be an OS. Even if some people might call dists of GNU/Linux or some other combination that uses Linux as its kernel for Linux, it will not make the software Linux an OS, Linux IS a kernel and will stay a kernel, do not attempt to confuse people, this article should be about the software Linux, the software Linux is a kernel so I do not see why it exists in its current form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.0.41 (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

We've been over this maybe 100 times now - it is the name most commonly used to refer to the OS. Arguments about kernels are pointless.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Its in fact not pointless at all, the SOFTWARE Linux IS a kernel, not an OS, I cannot see how lying to people is the way to go, its actually an act of evil to both sides of the argument (which is no argument, Linux is a kernel and nothing else, regardless of what people "think"), since people might actually try to download the kernel in an attempt to install GNU or RedHat etc, If I did not know better, I'd ask someone what the offical Linux release page was and download it if i wanted an OS like GNU after reading this. You cannot have a page in a encyclopedia which is 100% false, isn't the point of an encyclopedia to spread knowledge? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.0.41 (talk) 17:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please calm down. I can assure you that I have linux running on several machines at home without any GNU at all. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed I belive you, i have been modifiying this kernel for years for work etc, however this does not change the fact that this article is not about the software Linux. GNU is of cource not required for Linux to operate, I have said no such thing, why however would one write an article about a software and then state untrue information?79.136.0.41 (talk) 18:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

In most of the cases, people, companies, distributions, books call "the operating system that uses Linux kernel" "Linux". That's all. Even if in your wisdom you consider that incorrect or unfair there's nothing to do about that here on Wikipedia, here we follow the common usage of the terms. So unless you change Wikipedia's policies or you change the reality you can't do anything here except blow hot air (which all the talk pages are full of) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 18:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

An operating system is the interface between hardware and programs - it provides the infrastructure needed for running programs. Linux fits that category as a kernel. To be useful though, it needs to boot up a userspace (it does this by spawning a single program: init(1). So the minimal linux system is the kernel + 1 userspace program. Of course modern systems require quite a bit more than that - they need shells, GUI's, various utilities, libraries and so forth. But the raw basics of the operating system is still the kernel + 1 program. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:13, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You are somewhat, correct, Linux is a kernel, and an OS is pretty much a program to make the system useful (makes it able for a human to operate the system = OS), it does not however take away the fact that Linux on is own is a kernel, we have the word "kernel" to describe this type of software (that you just described) and we have "OS" to destribe an OS, so the fact remains that a article about Linux should be about Linux. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.136.0.41 (talk) 19:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This is getting circular, and most of these arguments can be found above. Suffice to say that your definition is not the one the literature uses. Lets say i make a program for a videomachine using the init(1) mechanism to run the master program and spawn several other processes to interface and deal with tasks. Where is the OS in that? (hint: its the kernel). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't even the point. The point was that Linux IS a kernel and the article is WRONG because it is not about a kernel but about a complete operating system. kernel.org is the home of Linux, you will not find GNU, X or anything else there. I don't think GNU should even be mentioned again in this discussion. This is one of the poorest articles on Wikipedia because it is fundamentally wrong and everyone knows that it is. -- Borb (talk) 01:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

For certain values of "everyone". Rather low ones, actually. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Funny, but I actually agree with this position, there's no such thing as a "Linux OS" there are only:

• Linux (the kernel)
• Linux distributions
• GNU, X, KDE, GNOME, and other software used typically in Linux distributions.

Just as we can't talk about a "Windows OS", there's only Windows 2000, Windows NT, Windows XP, Windows Vista, etc. just like that we can't talk about Linux OS, we can talk about Debian GNU/Linux, or Red Hat Linux, or Ubuntu Linux, etc. What's the common thing to those? They are all "Linux distributions", but no, there's no such thing as a "Linux OS" or "GNU/Linux". -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

But when it comes down to it that's a ridiculous argument. You might as well argue that there's no such thing as a tree, on the same rationale. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

And once again - we are just repeating the arguments that are laid out above, many many times.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

True, but I was thinking that "Linux distribution" would fit the bill when talking about the generic OS because that's the form in which "Linux" is known by people. Is it also anything to say the OS that would not go in Linux distribution or Linux kernel articles? I don't know, you are probably right though.... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 16:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

No, because this is like having an article called leaf but talking about the whole tree. -- Borb (talk) 01:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it's like claiming that the even if all people call it "tree" the right name is "leaf/tree" because there cannot be a tree without leaves. Hey look, I just made a false analogy too. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems like this dispute might never be resolved permanently, so how about an internal consistency compromise? Debian calls their OS GNU/Linux; Ubuntu calls it Linux. So, use GNU/Linux and Linux, respectively, throughout those articles. This not only solves our controversy but the additionally problem of inconsistency created within GNU distribution articles if one name were adopted universally. This is how the AD/CE and Gdansk/Danzig arguments were resolved. Shii (tock) 02:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Articles are not supposed to be written from the point of view of their subjects (though I'd note that the Gdansk thing is one of the longest and lamest edit wars in the history of WP). The Debian operating system based on the Linux kernel is officially Debian GNU/Linux, and nobody has a problem with referring to it as such throughout WP, but going further than that and using a minority set of naming conventions on related articles simply for the sake of offending some partisans should be avoided where possible. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

But in the case of Debian and gNewSense we are really talking about an entirely separate idea. Ubuntu might drop GNU if another toolkit proves more useful, but for Debian and gNewSense, the fact that they are using the GNU operating system as well as the Linux kernel is essential. Shii (tock) 21:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

That may be a stated goal of gNewSense (I'm pretty sure there's nothing tying Debian to GNU, and indeed in things like the GFDL debate Debian sees itself as rather separate from GNU anyway) but we don't describe subjects in objective terms using their own wishes. gNewSense is a modified version of Ubuntu. That its maintainers see fit to avoid even referencing the distro they're derived from on the gNewSense home page doesn't mean we shouldn't. That its maintainers describe the project as primarily a distribution of GNU does not mean we must. To make a silly analogy, there's nothing preventing the gNewSense people from calling their version of the Linux kernel the "banana kernel", but it doesn't mean that we should describe the distro as being "a distribution of GNU components atop the banana kernel". Where the project's own name differs we should certainly note it, but not use it as the definitive term in the article. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

We've been over this 1000 times

We've been over this controversy a thousand times but it doesn't matter. If we want a good and fair encylopedia with real information we must continue the fight. So "pro call it Linux-people", don't use the argument "Wev'e been over this 1000 times". It doesn't matter. You are still wrong. --212.247.27.144 (talk) 20:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

However, there are rules against disruption, re-opening a discussion without bringing any serious arguments for the 1001st time is just trolling. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is fine as it is. "Linux" is simplest common denominator between all available options; it's the original name; it's the name seen most often in print and other media; and it's supported by its creator. The name "GNU/Linux" has correctly been identified as a sociopolitically-motivated term that has seen strong adoption amongst those who consider the Linux movement in general to be a social and political one. It's the exact same deal with "digital restrictions management"; this isn't actually the authoritatively correct term for digital rights management... it's a form of commentary and reminder. Note that in the article on DRM, like this one, the sociopolitically-motivated renaming is mentioned in the second paragraph, and that the related controversy is discussed in the article. This is simply how we do things on Wikipedia. It pisses off the partisans who are emotionally invested in their viewpoint and are unwilling to accept a wider view than the one they've locked themselves into... but partisanship doesn't build a "good and fair" encyclopedia. -/- Warren 01:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"it's the original name ... it's supported by its creator" Linux is the original name of the the kernel. The operating system that this article is about does not have "a creator". It is created by thousands of people and most of those would agree that "Linux" is not the name of the operating system. -- Borb (talk) 06:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The Operating system is actually the kernel (per Tanenbaum and almost all literature on OS's). The GNU suite is the system utilities. And combined they are a distribution. All the confusion stems from Linux not having only one distribution. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 06:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

So, Unix and Windows are kernels? ...ah, no. Kernels are kernels, and operating systems are something bigger. --Gronky (talk) 09:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that you actually take up an operating systems book. Your description is incorrect. You could also try to read our own article on Operating system. All of these resources seperate the operating system (kernel) from the system utilities and application programs. The operating system is the interface between the hardware and the actual software, it provides the interface (API) to access the hardware, and run application programs on the hardware. If you disagree, then i suggest that you cite me some references to some authoritative operating system references, that differ from this. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC) (check for instance pg. 2 in Tanenbaum's "Modern Operating Systems" --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC))

Programmers use glibc's API's, not Linux's. Glibc is obviously part of the operating system. --Gronky (talk) 09:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What exactly does the application API have to do with the Operating system? Everything in Man(2) is the operating system - and that is Linux not GNU. (thats Man(3)). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 10:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Man(2) is system calls, not "the operating system" (source:man pages). To confirm that Unix operating systems are much more than kernels, POSIX and the Single_UNIX_Specification provide definitions. There you can see that most of the Unix operating system functionality is provided by GNU, not Linux. --Gronky (talk) 12:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

System calls is the OS API, and they are directly trapped into the kernel. POSIX defines quite a bit more than the operating system.

But you are dragging us out a tangent again. What is the definition of the operating system, per the standard reference works on Operating systems? (Hint: its the kernel). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The defnitions of Unix operating systems are POSIX and the SUS. According to them, the operating system is much more than just a kernel. And in the case of the operating system we're discussing, most of that requirements of a Unix are fulfilled by GNU, not Linux. --Gronky (talk) 23:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Try reacting to the gist here - operating systems are defined in the literature about operating systems. And by that literature the kernel is the operating system. Though in some cases such as in a non-monolithic system, some parts of the operating system can be outside the kernel. But that is not the case for Linux, which is a monolithic system. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Programmers use glibc even if they don't program in C? I thought glibc is a C standard library... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, even if they're using another language. When they use another language, they use a wrapper library to interface their function calls with the system functionality provided by glibc. --Gronky (talk) 23:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You do not need glibc for Man(2). Sorry. All glibc is doing there is act as a wrapper to the direct system calls. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Borb: The notion that Linus Torvalds is not the creator of this thing called "Linux" is the most hilariously specious argument I've heard in a long time. It's right up there with "Barack Obama is a Muslim because his middle name is Hussein". Torvalds is certainly not the creator of this thing we call "GNU/Linux", and the article makes this clear, but this thing we call "Linux" is of his creation -- don't be distracted by the subsequent 15+ years of history and the contributions of thousands. He still started it. He gave it a name. It's his baby. Don't forget that Torvalds owns the trademark "Linux", and there's a web site devoted to the licensing of the Linux trademark.

And yet, people still argue that it's actually called GNU/Linux because of arguments related to the standard library, or what is commonly packaged with distributions, or because RMS wants his due. In the world of Windows NT, nobody argues that "Win32" is part of the name of the operating system, even though nowadays you would be very hard-pressed to find a Windows NT system that doesn't use Win32 as the primary interface between software and kernel. Nobody would argue it's called Win32/NT. Mac OS X is built on GNU software, too, but nobody is trying to claim that the correct name is GNU/Mac OS X.

Here's another way of looking at it: "Linux", in a sense, doesn't actually exist as a piece of software. We have Linux kernels and Linux distributions and Linux documentation and Linux developers and the Linux community, but not a thing called "Linux" in and of itself. Same with Windows: there is no single thing called "Microsoft Windows"; we have Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 and so on and so forth, as well as concrete things like the Windows API, Windows marketshare, Windows developers, and so on. "Linux" and "Microsoft Windows" are trademarks, they have owners, and they are umbrella terms for a whole lot of topics, but they're conceptual, not concrete things. We use these terms as a starting-off point. They're the lowest-common denominator of identification.

Understand that, and it should become very clear why this article needs to be named "Linux", not "GNU/Linux". If it's still not clear, read WP:NAME's introduction, over and over, until you come around. -/- Warren 00:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The GNU project was started in 1984. Linux was first released in 1991. He called the kernel Linux, he did not rename GNU to Linux. The GNU project had loads of developers before Linux was released. Linux was just one of the final pieces, albeit a very important piece. But don't try and tell me that Linus somehow started something which was in fact started 7 years before. By the way, Linus only owns the trade mark in the US because someone else got it first to try and exploit it. He won it in some kind of court case.

You can't compare GNU/Linux to Windows or OSX. Windows and OSX are complete systems, like FreeBSD. This is what GNU was supposed to be. GNU/Linux is a complete system made from two parts. GNU/Linux distributions are a lot more complicated, though. X has nothing to do with GNU or Linux. Apache has nothing to do with either. But just because these components are not part of GNU/Linux it does not invalidate the GNU part of the name. Windows also does not ship with an (unrestricted) web server, but you can install Apache on it. And Darwin (OSX) is made from FreeBSD, not GNU.

Also, regarding the discussion about whether the kernel is an OS or not, Linus himself has said that the kernel is just a tiny part of a complete system. -- Borb (talk) 06:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

So? Let's assume all you said is correct, have you read WP:NAME, have you read this part for example "the names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists." Let's assume for a moment that you are a specialist and let's assume that you are right, it bears absolutely no importance what you think is "correct" name, people use "Linux" that's the name we need to use here. Also BSD uses very happily GNU tools like GCC... however for some strange reasons you consider it a "complete" system while Linux is not in your view. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 07:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You are (mostly) correct in that "GNU/Linux" is a (mostly) complete system made from two parts. What you're choosing to ignore is the fact that Linux can, and does exist without the GNU part (a fact acknowledged by the FSF), and indeed the name "GNU/Linux" didn't appear until approximately five years after "Linux" did, and "Linux" is also the name that is in majority use. All this has been discussed in prior threads, and GNU/Linux naming controversy covers all this ground.

I encourage you to keep reading WP:NAME, over and over... you haven't quite learned to prioritise Wikipedia's goals over your clear pro-GNU bias yet. Overcoming ones own biases is difficult, but you'll get there. -/- Warren 15:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I know Linux does exist without GNU and this is one of my arguments against naming this article "Linux"! This article is only about GNU/Linux and not about Linux itself which is found at Linux kernel. The name "GNU/Linux" didn't appear until after "Linux", but the name "GNU" appeared a long before both of them.

You are right about WP:NAME. I guess what this comes down to is that I disagree with WP:NAME. I think using an incorrect name just because most people use it is silly and even makes the article pointless. People use Wikipedia to learn and I do not think it is unacceptable to assume that a majority of people are wrong (or "not correct" at least) and that Wikipedia is right. This article does clearly say that "Linux" (as defined by the article) is not written or even started by Torvalds but the majority of people do think this. Should this be changed to reflect popular belief? -- Borb (talk) 15:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I find it pretty irrelevant that you don't agree with Wikipedia's policies, we here follow Wikipeidia's policies, not your opinions. Second of all, that policy is about _naming_ not about the content, your example is nothing else than a straw man. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No, we are here to contribute, not to "follow policy". This is a wiki, the policies are set by us. So no it is not completely irrelevant if I disagree with the "policies", thank you very much. -- Borb (talk) 17:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Policies are set by "us", not by "you", I hope you see the difference. Of you manage to change the policy come back and we can discuss this again, till then it's a moot point. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

That's perfectly acceptable, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, in light of the extreme unlikelihood that WP:NAME is going to be drastically altered in the future, and the level of popular support that the policy has with a majority of Wikipedia's editors, this argument is unlikely to gain consensus. And were it not for the obstructionist misreading of Wikipedia:Consensus which says that while various partisans continue veto a move there can't be consensus, this would have been settled some time ago on the solidity of this single argument. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the two comments above, i'd like to point out that your version of the Linux and GNU history is severely revisionistic. I suggest that you sit down, and read abit about Stallman and GNU's reactions to Linux (in the first 5 years or so). Stallman first started the GNU/Linux bit once it was obvious that the Hurd wouldn't be finished. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

(Replying to Borb) I don't think that WP:NAME contradicts you. WP:NAME says that names should be complete enough to avoid ambiguity. In this case, the operating system has two widely used names, "GNU/Linux" and "Linux". The latter is heavily ambiguous and confusing, so I read WP:NAME as saying that Wikipedia should use the name "GNU/Linux". --Gronky (talk) 09:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that the naming convention on precision advises (after all they are only conventions and not laws) that 'Linux' is not used as title of this article as it conflicts with Torvald's kernel project which official release name is 'Linux'. I do not think it mandates 'GNU/Linux' though. It could just as well be named: 'Linux Distribution' or even 'Free Operating Systems'. Though I think 'Linux Distribution' would be best as it caters to the 'popular name' convention (and mayhap as it acknowledges the community-enabling property of Torvald's contribution). That much said 'GNU/Linux' or 'Linux/GNU/X' (from late 1992, yggdrasil distro) are good too as they are descriptive names denoting the most important common packages found on the majority of installs. Okoura (talk) 23:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"Linux distribution" would be a much more fitting name for the current article. However, it is still very ambiguous. The current page at Linux distribution currently says it is also known as a GNU/Linux distribution, but I'm sure a non-GNU, for example Busybox + Linux, could be still called a "Linux distribution".

Maybe it would be better to disambiguate the Linux page? For example: Linux can refer to the kernel itself, or to so called "Linux distributions" such as: Ubuntu etc. which often use GNU to provide user level UNIX tools in a combination known as GNU/Linux.

Maybe I am biased towards GNU, but I think everybody can agree that what is on the Linux page at the moment is more than just "Linux", but at the same time does not cover everything that "Linux" could refer to (ie. non GNU distributions). I think the latter issue is just as important. -- Borb (talk) 10:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The terms have many possible scopes, but to keep the size of these topics manageable Wikipedia splits Linux-based gadget distros, such as just Linux+Busybox, into a separate article: embedded Linux.

This article here is about desktop and server operating systems that are functionally similar to a Unix operating system. In that category, GNU is always present and is larger than the amount of Linux kernel present. So, I think GNU should certainly be mentioned, and I read WP:NAME as agreeing with this. --Gronky (talk) 12:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

GNU is mentioned inside the article plenty, as for the name of the article please read again WP:NAME especially this part: "the names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists." Since Linux is the generally used name for "operating systems that use Linux kernel" that's the name we should use for the article, all these discussions about the amount of GNU code inside a Linux distribution are pretty much irrelevant. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia's are supposed to be informative. Optimising for readers means making the articles informative and not relying on specialist knowledge. You and I might know that GNU/Linux distros contain more GNU than they contain Linux, but readers cannot be expected to know this. Readers also cannot be expected to know that the Linux that was created in 1991 by a Finnish student during his Christmas holidays (a story journalists love) is not the same as the operating system that is competing with Microsoft Windows and MacOS. The part of WP:NAME that you quote is a clear explanation of why it's counter-productive to call the OS "Linux". --Gronky (talk) 10:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you misread that explanation on purpose. It's pretty clear it says that even if specialist (RMS, FSF, or you) come up with a great name that explains everything we still have to give priority to the name that's used by general public. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 12:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Except that you seem to have missed what an encyclopedia is for... Its not primarily for educational purposes (that is a secondary benefit) - but to summarize the state of knowledge, as described by reliable sources, in accordance with the relative weight of the arguments in sources. Here there is a clear weight problem for your point of view. Most (but not all) reliable sources refer to a Linux system as Linux, not as GNU/Linux, and therefore Wikipedia reflects that line. Most (not all (torqueville)) sources tell us Linux was created by a Finnish student in 1991, and most (not all) sources say that this is the operating system that competes with Windows and MacOS. The key word here is: Most. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

We can document the operating system completely, and we can write an article about what terms people use for the operating system. Neither of these requires that we communicate this information to readers in confusing ambiguous ways. --Gronky (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

If your problem is ambiguity, please read the first line that appears in the page: "This article is about operating systems that use the Linux kernel. For the kernel itself, see Linux kernel. For other uses, see Linux (disambiguation)." I think this is crystal clear, do you have anything to add to that line? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I just made an edit to the line. Actually I think after this massive discussion this change is all that is needed. The name of the article can be Linux but it is specifically about GNU/Linux (which is commonly called Linux). -- Borb (talk) 16:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha, why, because you say so? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

No, because we say so. Note the end of the second paragraph: "...the alternative name GNU/Linux." It seems you have forgotten one of Wikipedia's most important guidelines: WP:BOLD. In this case my edit was reverted even though my edit summary is clearly backed up by the text of the article itself. I'm not going to get in to an edit war about it, though. -- Borb (talk) 17:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you may also want to read another of wikipedias important guidelines: WP:DE. Another interesting one is WP:POINT. Both of which are applicable if you read this talk page before editing the page, but not if you only read it afterwards. Which i assume was the case. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Closing discussion on the naming issue‏

Right, we've been at this for more than long enough now. I believe most of the people active in discussion up until this point have had their say. So what I'm going to do is try to summarise all arguments, along with short rebuttals.

Firstly, things which (hopefully) everyone agrees on.

1. "Linux" is the most commonly-used name for the operating system.
2. Using "Linux" for the name of the operating system may annoy some contributors or dissuade them from editing.

Use of "Linux"

1. Wikipedia should be internally consistent.
2. Wikipedia's articles should not be written from the point of view of their subjects. Therefore, even where an article's subject uses the name "GNU/Linux" to refer to the operating system, Wikipedia should not preserve the use of this name as the general name of the operating system in such articles, except where it forms part of a proper name (such as Debian GNU/Linux).
3. From a historical perspective, the scope of the kernel and those layers above it which are Linux-specific and of non-GNU origin exactly matches that traditionally defined as being an "operating system". Other systems with a similar scope, such as MINIX, which may also be distributed with GNU utilities and libraries, are not subject to the demanded naming convention.

Rebuttals:

1. See below, "Use of "Linux" and "GNU/Linux" interchangeably".
2. See below, "Use of GNU/Linux".
3. The scope of this article extends beyond this historical definition to indisputably use a more high-level definition of "operating system".

Use of "GNU/Linux"

1. "Linux" is an inaccurate name. Wikipedia should prescribe and endorse the use of the name "GNU/Linux" because it is more accurate than "Linux" and to do otherwise would be to belittle the work of the GNU project.

Rebuttals:

1. Wikipedia is not a defender of the truth. The accuracy of such claims is sufficiently disputed that we cannot and should not present them as factual. Our policies allow for the reporting of such opinions, but they also demand that we refrain from advocating minority positions in the absence of an agreed body which would lend them authority.

Use of "Linux" and "GNU/Linux" interchangeably

1. The issue is a cultural one and is no different from the differences between British and American English. So long as there is internal consistency at the article level there is no problem. Just like articles on British people use UK English, articles on projects affiliated with GNU should use the FSF's terminology.

Rebuttals:

1. The dual use of UK and US English is primarily a compromise to allow two very similar languages to share one domain, and as such is really a technical hack. Unlike that situation, which is a matter of two undisputed positions which both have authoritative bodies behind them, there is an obvious component of prescription in the use of the terms here.

If anyone thinks this summary is unfair, let me know. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Chris for writing this up. I am worried a little by some of the content of summary and by the fact that you are the one writing it. After all, it is your actions to implement your opinion (i.e., the removal of mentions of GNU/Linux) in Wikipedia that are the subject of this debate. I also think you've done a better job of representing your point (and refuting others') in your summary but, of course, I think that's very understandable. I would encourage others, including those that are not arguing from a strong stated position here to draft their own write-ups.

Should I try to edit your text or start a page in my userspace based off of your text? I'd be happy to do either. —mako๛ 21:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice if you'd given a couple of pointers to what you feel is unduly weightet here...--Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

If you don't feel that directly editing it is appropriate, feel free to leave suggested rewordings on my talk page and I'll use them. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I personally think its a fair description of the arguments so far. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Good write-up. The comparison with the two English variants is an apt one; perhaps also the long-standing issue of which unit should be used to measure computer memory (MB vs MiB) could be looked to as a guide. In that discussion, the settled issue can pretty much be summarised as, "do as our sources do". I think it's perfectly valid, for example, to use "GNU/Linux" in a software article where the software's authors, and/or the sources we're using, do the same. If the term "Linux" is used without the GNU part, then that's what should be used on Wikipedia. -/- Warren 21:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem here is on point 2 of the arguments for "Linux": articles such as gNewSense are primarily referenced using sources which favour "GNU/Linux", but the sources themselves are systemically biased towards that naming convention. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Note:Chris is not an authority that can call others systemically biased, and I reject the option of a final call, as every article is an ongoing process, they should reflect progress in the real world, and the issue about the naming reference is not clear to me, i think consensus is preffered before direct editing. Mion (talk) 00:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is not the same as unilateral approval. This isn't going to be blocked indefinitely. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a little unfair. It feels like the rebuttals against use of the incorrect name "Linux" were the basic arguments for GNU/Linux and then there were rebuttals against them. --212.247.27.142 (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to have it reworded if someone steps up with a more acceptable version. I haven't heard anything on the subject for nearly a week, however, and policy is that silence implies consensus. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not support this closing statement. For non-Wikipedia reasons (life), I can't go into long explanations now. I've already given you dozens, maybe 100, paragraphs of explanation on this page. You can't just ask the same questions repeatedly and declare victory when others hist a busy period in life. --Gronky (talk) 23:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That's the way it works. If your argument can't stand by itself without you having to personally fight it, then it's not strong enough to stand. This issue will not be indefinitely stalled because particular individuals close to it claim not to be able to spend time on it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Update

With no further word from any involved parties regarding this, I'm going to take the silence as an indication of consensus on the points and counterpoints given. From tomorrow, I'll be using the above rationale to make WP's use of the term consistent again. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Chris, I've been distracted by some things with OLPC. I'm going to be replying to your summary above first. —mako๛ 22:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps more importantly, I don't understand how you are reading the summary above as rationale for one argument over another. Or are you suggesting asking folks what they think using this as a template? —mako๛ 22:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

From the currently uncontested summary above, the pro-"GNU/Linux" arguments have all been rebutted, while the primary argument for "Linux" (most common name, consistency) stands mostly uncontested. I don't feel that another round of RfC is going to add anything more to the debate, especially given Paul Beardsell's return to the thread reiterating exactly what he said in March with absolutely no attempt to consider arguments since that point. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I assume that this unsigned comment was from Chris. I'm happy to help continue to contest the summary but I don't think that will help. I read the summary as written and come to different conclusions -- but perhaps that's just because I've read the rest of this page. I'm not surprised that after all this, you remain convinced that you are correct. But the rest of this discussion does not show some clarity and this group remains highly divided, completely entrenched, and resistant to the serious consideration of the compromise options Jimbo and I have suggested. I'm beginning to think it's inevitable that this is heading to arbitration. —mako๛ 13:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine - the whole point of this debate was to formalise and centralise the argument, rather than having a cloud of different edit wars with different parties involved in each. Anyway, I don't recall dismissing "serious consideration of the compromise options" presented by you and Jimbo: the subject of treating it like the US/UK English debate was seriously considered, and disagreed with on its merits. It's still one possible solution. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You might have disagreed with it. I and others didn't. --Gronky (talk) 00:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus to support your intention to remove use of the term GNU/Linux from wikipedia articles when they refer to the operating systems that use the kernel Linux as GNU/Linux.--Grandscribe (talk) 22:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Why is that? Only because you don't agree with that action? I wonder what "consensus" really means here on Wikipedia... There are always going to be some 9/11 conspiracy buffs and Holocaust deniers... does that mean that there is no consensus about 9/11 and about Holocaust? Any field and/or political issue has people who don't agree with the mainstream take, if you claim that one or two people can compromise the consensus then consensus would be impossible to archive on Wikipedia, or this doesn't seem to be the case, probably your interpretation of "consensus" is wrong or Wikipedia has rules that cannot be really applied... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

His interpretation of consensus is demonstrably false. There's no point in replying to content-free denials though. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That may be the case but I don't see any other kind of consensus here either. —mako๛ 13:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Failure to adequately answer arguments made on one side can be seen to be acceptance of their merits. From what I can see, only one side is issuing rebuttals here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Not when it's the same rejected argument put forward for the Nth time (N>5). What's being put forward is just repetition of thoroughly rebutted ideas. Sorry, but there's only so much time I can give to re-explaining the flaws in these arguments. It's been almost two months now that we've being working on this Rfc, explaining to you why your actions are unacceptable. If we happen to not respond to your latest thread, it doesn't mean we're silenced by the brilliance of your logic, it just means some of us might need a break every now and again. --Gronky (talk) 00:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You haven't yet made an attempt to reply to the specific issues raised in any of the last few threads. You've falledn back to rhetoric and content-free denials. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

(This is answered below in my comment beginning with "Ok. I don't know what arguments...") --Gronky (talk) 00:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As I said to Mako, be bold and pick a venue. So far as I can see, you haven't directly responded to the summary given (either to correct it or to provide additional content) at all thus far, while you have made numerous replies vaguely alluding to having done so. The page is a mess no matter how you choose to respond, but I would appreciate a direct response to the summary under the second-level heading above. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for not responding sooner. I'm also a bit busy myself. I also must point out that the above discussion shows very little support (in terms of arguments or people) for any anti-"GNU/Linux" policy. You say that the "GNU/Linux" arguments have been rebutted, but the "Linux" arguments have all been rebutted too. I don't agree with your summary, and I think you've represented the "GNU/Linux" arguments poorly. Further, I don't agree with you being the author or the gate keeper for the closing statement. --Gronky (talk) 23:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You've made the same comment three times in this thread just now without actually providing a summary of these supposed rebuttals. This looks like another example of repeating something until it becomes true, which has been common throughout this debate. And unless a truly disinterested arbiter steps in someone has to provide focus to this debate, something which you're unwilling to do because the confusion suits your outcome. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I don't know what arguments you think remain unrebutted, but if you let me know what they are, I'll reply to them. Maybe putting them in a new section would be a good idea. This discussion is getting hard to follow. --Gronky (talk) 07:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I have proposed more concrete feedback (perhaps not concrete enough) which you have ignored, rejected, or just not got to yet. Would this be more useful I move your draft text somewhere into my user space? —mako๛ 14:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure - choose the venue and I'll work on it. These threads are nearly impossible to follow at the moment. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Feedback

Here is some of my feedback to your summary which, as I said before, I think is a pretty good overview of the arguments. Sorry this has been so delayed in coming.

First, I think a point of agreement that bears mentioning is that this space is highly politicized and controversial and that any decision and that any decision will play to a set of editors and outsiders with bias. The context is important.

To "use of Linux" I would add a statement that Linux is confusing and ambiguous. That's a related but different argument than that it is incorrect.

In your statement about "Use of "Linux" and "GNU/Linux" interchangeably" I think object to the statement that they should be treated by British and US English because the issue is cultural. That is one reason that they might be used interchangably but not one that I believe that I (who have argued for this position) have argued. One other reason to support this argument is because it is a compromise position in a space where we seem to remain very far from consensus. —mako๛ 22:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Any resolution will "play to a set of outsiders". This is not a reason to allow the project's treatment of the issue to be ambiguous and contradictory.

As I've said before, I don't believe that the reason Wikipedia allows both US and UK English is "cultural". The reason is that the issue is entirely cosmetic in the eyes of any grown adult, and that the compromise is a much better solution for the encyclopedia as a whole than doing a full interlang split. It does not appear to be the consensus position that the naming issue involved here is purely cosmetic. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's cultural either, which is why I objected to your characterization of the compromise argument. I think that the US/UK split exists because the problematic effect of this language difference in the encyclopedia outweighs the benefits that total consistency would give and because no unambiguously correct answer can be determined. Divergence in terminology happens in lots of places in Wikipedia and is often perfectly alright. I just don't see the harm that having the "GNU/Linux" in the Gnewsense article is causing but I see a lot of negative effects of you (almost single-handedly) trying to remove it from that article throughout the encylopedia. —mako๛ 19:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, one more thing. I think we need to be really clear in the text of this statement what it is that we're trying to decide here. The name of this article is one question and the question of whether we should police every mention of GNU/Linux or Linux in Wikipedia is another entirely. We need to keep them separate. —mako๛ 22:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This RfC is on the second issue. The first does not appear to have been seriously contended for several years. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Great (and thank $DIETY). It's obvious from some of the other conversation that not everyone else realizes that this is what we are talking about. Let's try to remind them. —mako๛ 19:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the name of this page is highly contested. I and many others have argued many a time that it should be "GNU/Linux". But let's deal with that another time. --Gronky (talk) 23:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This "summary" and attempt to close the discussion like this is not acceptable. It is written by and from the point of view of the person who originated this RFC and clearly it favors his position which is well known. For him the term GNU/Linux should not be used in wikipedia to describe the OS that uses the kernel Linux. There has NOT been an agreement by the opposite parties in this discussion to conclude that the request of user Thumpeward to allow him to continue with his edits to remove the term GNU/Linux when it refers to the OS has been accepted. This attempt to restart the anti GNU/Linux term edits is not accepted.--Grandscribe (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --Gronky (talk) 23:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This kind of ad hominem is counterproductive. While Grandscribe's account is used for the single purpose of arguing this issue, I'd hope that you would eventually stop framing this whole debate as an issue with my character. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not recognise this as ad hominem. It is not such to point out that an avowedly impartial summary seems to favour the POV of the contributor of the summary. Such an event demands comment. To claim this is ad hominem is inappropriate and illegitimate. Your only possible legitimate defense is to claim that the summary is accurate and fair, but this is disputed. Paul Beardsell (talk) 18:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

As to your repeated comments re Grandscribe: "Ad hominem" is precisely what you are doing here. Are Grandscribe's arguments too powerful for you to address? Paul Beardsell (talk) 18:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Grandscribe mostly just repeats his position sans rationale, which doesn't need to be discredited by an attack on his character. I'm not engaging in an "am not/am too" argument, and was advicing Gronky not to do the same for the sake of having a reasonable discussion with him (as has happened on a great many talk pages across WP). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Closing discussion on the naming issue (2)‏

OK. The consensus is plain. We rename this page to GNU/Linux. Then we find a mechanism to undo all the unreasoned (brute force) edits from "GNU/Linux" to "Linux". Paul Beardsell (talk) 23:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the need to undo the unreasoned edits is clear. I also support renaming this page to "GNU/Linux". --Gronky (talk) 23:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Windows, cars and vacuum cleaners - a middle ground

Everyone calls it Windows but the article is called Microsoft Windows.

Everyone calls it a car but the article is called automobile.

The hoover is at vacuum cleaner.

And the universely named Mercedes trucks and cars are filed here under the proper brand name, Mercedes-Benz.

The GNU/Linux vs Linux naming controversy is deeply political and entrenched positions seem to be driving some peoples' thinking. The ability to easily disambiguate between the Linux kernel and the family of operating systems which use the Linux kernel is useful and should not be discarded.

Arguments constructed on the basis that WP should follow fashion and refer to everything with a Linux kernel as "Linux" are disingenuous. Nowadays WP often leads fashion. The effect of the brute force attempts to change most mentions of "GNU/Linux" to "Linux" throughout the encyclopedia is not to reflect popular usage but rather to lead it. This effort should be resisted.

I favour the use of the term "GNU/Linux". It is widely understood to mean the set of operating systems with Linux as the kernel surrounded by the GNU toolset. Even those who do not *like* the term know what it means. There are many examples, quoted by others above, of the likes of Sun, HP and by many authors, where the term Linux is explained as being properly the name of only the kernel. And practically all those sources use the term GNU/Linux where necessary, for disambiguation, at least. Here at WP it's Mercedes-Benz, Microsoft Windows, vacuum cleaner and automobile. Here too we should use the proper term. There is really only one - "GNU/Linux" - otherwise we are forced to be descriptive - "Linux (operating system)". Properly Linux should be the article on the kernel.

But I am not arguing the *opposite* of Chris Cunningham's argument, necessarily. There is a middle ground with which all should be reasonably content with even if no one is left 100% happy (it's called compromise):

To have the unique slot "Linux" in the WP namespace reserved for one usage of the term is incorrect. One solution is to have a disambiguation page. (I like that idea.) Another is to make it a redirection page to *either* GNU/Linux or Linux (operating system) or to Linux (kernel). Best the disambiguation page.

Paul Beardsell (talk) 00:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The argument is that WP should follow general usage, not "fashion", and following usage is part of WP rules about naming articles, your characterization is disingenuous, not this argument. Furthermore, I see that you ignored my note that arguments that use WP examples don't have any relevance here, as I explained WP articles cannot be used as source or valid argumentation for other articles. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 00:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(1) "Fashion" is "general usage", by definition. (2) Correct, I have ignored your note. Paul Beardsell (talk) 01:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Addressing your note. You cannot refer to the content of a WP article to support the content of another article. Correct! WP is not a verifiable source for WP purposes. But that rule refers to the factual content of articles and is inappropriately applied by you here. You can refer to common WP practice and good behaviour to inform practice and influence behaviour elsewhere at WP. Paul Beardsell (talk) 02:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

1. Why those examples apply to this case? (for example Mercedes-Benz is a clear name of a company, GNU/Linux is not, the example doesn't match) 2. Why those examples are necessary examples of good behavior in Wikipedia? This is just the current status of those articles, which might change tomorrow... 3. I'm not willing to open parallel, irrelevant discussion about naming in other articles that don't have anything in common with Linux, those names should be discussed in those articles. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You snipe on the fringes. These were examples chosen by me as counter-examples to sweeping generalisations made by you and others as to what does and does not happen on WP. When it suits you you are prepared to tell us that what happens elsewhere on WP should influence what we do here. When it doesn't suit you you tell us you don't care what happens elsewhere on WP. Paul Beardsell (talk) 02:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I accept criticism for every time I used Wikipedia as an example. However, my bad examples doesn't make your bad examples any bit better. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 03:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah but "fashion" has a nuance of "changing", or the usage hasn't changed significantly in a history of 17 years or so. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 01:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes it has. Paul Beardsell (talk) 02:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

And we already have a disambiguation page: Linux (disambiguation), it actually doesn't solve anything, you still need to use a name for the "Operating System that uses Linux kernel" and that's the contention here, some people will want "GNU/Linux" other will want to use "Linux OS" or "Linux (operating system)", even more, if we use "Linux (operating system)" that would not solve the problem how to refer to it in other pages, people will be able to link to it like this [[Linux (operating system)|GNU/Linux]], which brings us back to the subject of this RFC... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 01:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

We should not avoid fixing this problem because it then makes another existing problem apparent. We'll move onto that once we have this one resolved. There are two problems: (1) Does "Linux" refer to all operating systems with Linux as the kernel or does it refer to the kernel only? (2) What is the correct name for the family of operating systems with a Linux kernel and the GNU set of utilities? Stop conflating the two issues unnecessarily, and perhaps we might find a way through the muddle. The only suggestion you seem to be willing to consider is that we make Linux a synonym for FOSS. That, of course, is the fashion oops the current general usage. No one in the street says FOSS, they all say Linux but mean BSD, Hurd etc. Is that the fashion you want us to reflect here? Paul Beardsell (talk) 01:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard yet anybody saying "Linux" and referring to BSD or HURD. Moreover, I'm pretty confident you can not find any reliable source using Linux when talking about BSD or HURD. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right. Of course no one says Linux when they mean BSD or Hurd. But those who've never heard of BSD, those who've never heard FOSS spoken out loud, those who are essentially technically illiterate do say Linux when they mean FOSS - it's the only word they know. I recently read an article on a newspaper's computing page where Linux was used in exactly this fashion: Not as an example of FOSS but as a collective noun, meaning all FOSS. Perhaps none of my non-technical friends and acquaintances uses the terms "free software" or "open software". None of them, perhaps, even know of the existence of BSD or Hurd. But some of them have heard of "Linux" and that is the term they sometimes use in a non-specific way for FOSS. Is that increasingly common usage (fashion) what you think should be reflected here? Paul Beardsell (talk) 02:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps that is how the usage of "Linux" to mean "operating systems which have Linux at their kernel" came about. Technical illiteracy. Paul Beardsell (talk) 03:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Technical illiteracy is part of the explanation, but it's also too hard to say all the time "operating systems which have Linux at their kernel", it's also too pedantic to use a mouth-full sentence. Another explanation is that's the term used by majority of distributions -- and you can't accuse people from Red Hat Linux or SUSE Linux of technical illiteracy... but again explanations here are not that important, the fact is important, and the fact is that most of the people, distributions, press, reliable sources use "Linux" as a generic name for the operating system. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 03:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

As for two problems 1. no, Linux doesn't refer only to the kernel and we have enough reliable sources to verify that. 2. there's no such thing as "correct" name for "the operating system that uses Linux kernel", even more per WP:NAME it's irrelevant what is considered the "correct" word by specialists (although even among specialists there's no consensus), the name that's used by general public, press, etc should takes priority (even if you don't like it...) -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(1) I was not begging the question, I was simply reminding you what we were discussing. You do acknowledge that some seemingly well-informed and bright people disagree with your position? Same for point (2) also. Paul Beardsell (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

There are brilliant people supporting either position, does that tell you anything? I don't deny that there are some smart people that support "GNU/Linux", but 1. they are a minority, 2. they support the name for are advertising purposes, mostly politically motivated. 3. smart people can support idiotic things many times, appeal to authority is not a valid argument in a debate -- man with one red shoe (talk) 03:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

1. I think you'll find that it's actually the anti-GNU/Linux brigade that are in the minority (but, this isn't a vote).

2. This is untrue. (You shouldn't assume bad faith)

3. Appeal to intellectual authority might not be valid, but Wikipedia board members do have some value in that they should know policy and they should act in accordance with Wikipedia's interests rather than outside interests.

--Gronky (talk) 00:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you failed to understand that I was referring to people outside the Wikipedia (as the previous poster did too), don't imagine that I admitted that I've seen brilliant people here arguing for GNU/Linux, on the contrary, it has been a display of logical fallacies coming from pro GNU/Linux crowd (this "appeal by authority" is just a small sample...)

1. I was talking about general public not about the non-representative group around here, in general people, smart or brilliant, use "Linux", I haven't seen a consistent argument against this fact.

2. Again, I was having RMS in mind, the person who coined the term -- he had declared very clearly why he coined the term, read his speeches... it's not about "assuming" it's pretty much a fact advertising and politics are at the base of this naming "controversy".

3. "Should" is the key word here, there's no guarantee, but, do you really want to start again the "Argument ad Jimbonem"? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I missed the context of your previous comment. Sorry.

1. I think the original post in this thread provides sufficient rebuttal for the the-general-public-calls-it-X argument.

2. What was in RMS's mind is not relevant here. There are two terms, "Linux" and "GNU/Linux". The former is misleading, the latter is clearer as to what is being talked about. It's a matter of historical accuracy and Wikipedia should get it right.

3. I didn't say Jimbo's word is law, I said he should know policy and should look after Wikipedia's interests above any other interests he has. So far, I think he does. --Gronky (talk) 00:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This whole argument is more or less exactly what you wrote here, and has already been rebutted. There is no recognised authority to confer "accuracy" or "proper name" status on "GNU/Linux". The most common reason that another article would link the word Linux is to refer directly to the operating system. Thus our naming conventions favour the use of Linux as the title of the OS article. You've failed to provide counterarguments for any of the additional issues raised in the summary. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Raise your supposedly unanswered and/or additional issues, one by one, in separate sections and I'm sure we'll find they've already been most adequately dealt with or that they soon will be. Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

RE: "a name for the "Operating System that uses Linux kernel"" by User:Man with one red shoe, above. There is no such thing as the OS that uses the Linux kernel. There is an OS called GNU/Linux, but there are other such as Linux + Busybox and in the future there may be more if GNU ever becomes outdated or rewritten. That is one of the points for the GNU/Linux name that I think has been mostly overlooked. There was a question asked above about why Busybox is not mentioned in this article and the answer is that it is about only one use of Linux which is GNU/Linux. -- Borb (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what exactly you try to claim, I will just assume that you try to push your point of view... As for the existence of "operating systems that use Linux kernel" I think that's very well established fact. If you pay close attention even the disambiguation on this very page says: "This article is about operating systems that use the Linux kernel". man with one red shoe (talk) 19:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's a poorly worded disambiguation sentence. I'm glad it's not set in stone. --Gronky (talk) 00:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Using GNU/Linux is WP:UNDUE

The whole issue boils down to WP:WEIGHT. No matter how you discuss things, and there is plenty of it in the above, the weight issue keeps coming up. We can certainly see that the GNU/Linux name isn't WP:FRINGE (there are major distributions who name their version GNU/Linux), so it needs to be addressed. But do we do this, as some have suggested in a 50:50 manner? To answer that question we have to look at the relative weight of the matter. Some argue that Linux is the most used name in the popular media and amongst almost everyone. (ie. the de-facto name) But this is a technical matter - so a de-facto solution is probably not the thing....

The reasonable approach is to do a review of how used Linux is vs. GNU/Linux, and here it becomes simple - no matter how we do a literary review... Be it for Linux books (technical or popular), Computer science papers, Standards organization papers (fx. IEEE), Industry journals, Linux distributers etc etc. We come up with a result that says that the majority (by at least a magnitude) use Linux to describe ... well ... Linux. If we do the same amongst experts, then we reach the same conclusion: there is a minority who uses GNU/Linux, and a large majority (again by at least a magnitude) who use Linux.

So WP:WEIGHT tells us that Linux is in fact the name to use, and that we in our major articles need to mention GNU/Linux as a minority position - everything else would be undue weight to a minority position.

So why are we discussing it? Because the minority considers it the Truth? I personally prefer to honor the GNU work, and therefore have called my company Lignus. But that is simply my personal political opinion, which is completely irrelevant. Let me quote just one passage from WP:NPOV:

“ Keep in mind that in determining proper weight we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors. ”

And the prevalence is clear. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yup. Another quote from that page which I've paraphrased several times as "articles are not written from the POV of their subjects":

“ the article should make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. ”

Even those articles which directly describe organisations and products affiated with the minority viewpoint should not be written from the perspective of that viewpoint, though its inclusion should be noted objectively. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Folks, this argument has already been rebutted in Talk:Linux#Windows.2C cars and vacuum cleaners - a middle ground. --Gronky (talk) 00:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Except it hasn't. Paul Beardsell's argument relies on the fallacy that "GNU/Linux" is an authoritatively correct name, a position which is held only by a minority: the entire point Kim's making here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That's circular. You're begging the question by using your conclusion as a premise. Then you invoke Kim who writes that we should consider reliable sources. But, as already pointed out, the most reliable sources, Sun, Debian, HP, several authors of well-regarded books all say that Linux is properly the kernel, that the o/s is properly referred to as GNU/Linux. I note that the article on energy focusses on the physical science use of the word, not the popular one. That the article on work is a disambiguation page, not an article on focussing on the man-in-the-street usage of the word. There are countless articles I could quote where they are named correctly, not popularly. Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Did you fail to read my argument? Lets verify (we'll chuck debian, since its self declared GNU) with a few searches (yep, i know WP:GOOGLE - but i'm so certain that this is the case, that i'll accept most any searches that you can find):

Sun.com GNU/Linux[21] (4,270) vs. Linux[22] (526,000) - HP.com: (2,230 vs. 722,000).

Or in other words, they use Linux two orders of a magnitude times more than GNU/Linux. Once more See: WP:WEIGHT.

And yes - books use GNU/Linux. But then they use Linux more. Lets check with Amazon (like this [23]):

Prentice Hall: (255 vs. 9,120), Addison Wesley (147 vs. 7,040), O'Reilly (348 vs. 13,400)

Again usage of Linux is a magnitude (or more) higher than usage of GNU/Linux. I repeat: Its a question of WP:WEIGHT. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Paul Beardsell. This article should be called GNU/Linux. It is interesting to see that in the release notes for the first version of his kernel even Linus Torvalds clearly said that Linux is a only a "kernel". He even adds that without GNU his kernel would get you nowhere. It is very confusing and misleading to call the complete OS that uses Torvalds' kernel and the GNU system just Linux. Linux is only the kernel. In the first line of his kernel release notes Torvalds clearly says :

"This is a free minix-like kernel". In the same document he added: "Sadly, a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are separate parts and may be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the tools used with linux are GNU software and are under the GNU copyleft. These tools aren't in the distribution - ask me (or GNU) for more info.". Written by Linus Torvalds the first time he released the kernel Linux in 1991.--Grandscribe (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a red herring, it's irrelevant how much GNU code is used in the operating system and is irrelevant how vital it is, the OS is called by most of the people, press, books, distributions, etc "Linux" that's what we are going to use. There's no authority for naming OSes and no authority for naming operating system that use Linux, GNU, X, KDE, etc. the best thing that come close to being a "naming authority" are distributions themselves, and the majority of them use "Linux". Period. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

What utter rot. There are twenty-three pages of archives on this topic over which the GNU/Linux camp have unsuccessfully attempted to argue that any of those vendors could be considered an authority in a sense acceptable by WP policy. Furthermore, policy still explicitly favours popularity over authority in a case where the more popular title enjoys considerably greater recognition than the correct one, so even if you beg the question of whether "GNU/Linux" is authoritative policy still favours the current naming convention. But regardless, as I've replied below, the general naming of this article isn't up for debate at this stage. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

People who support allowing the "GNU/Linux" name have not argued that a few big vendors are an authority. On the contrary, I think those big vendors (most of whose revenue comes from non-free software) would feel nervous about mentioning "GNU" to their customers (they wouldn't want their customers reading about the idea that they deserve rights, and they wouldn't want to appear to endorse the GNU project's views). So I would expect them to be very conservative about using the term "GNU/Linux". I would expect many of them to have a policy of not mentioning "GNU". So it is important that they do mention GNU/Linux - not because they're the authority, but because they should be the last to acknowledge it (and yet they still do so in prominent places, moreso in recent years).

The name of this article has been in constant debate. A discussion about what to call the operating system described in this article is a debate about what to call this article. --Gronky (talk) 14:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gronky.--Grandscribe (talk) 12:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Rename to "Linux (operating system)"?

It's a compromise proposal. Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this would help. It might clarify that the article is about an OS, but it might also worsen the confusion that "Linux" (which every journalist has mentioned was written by Torvalds in 1991) is an operating system :-/ --Gronky (talk) 15:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that there shouldn't be any article about the "Linux operating system" because there's no such thing (that's why this article is pretty chaotic) there should be articles about "Linux", "GNU", "Linux distributions" (I know that some people would protest here asking for "GNU/Linux distributions") but I accept this "Linux (operating system)" as a compromise. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 16:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there is no such a thing as the/a "Linux operating system" for the same reason there is no such think as the Rolls Royce airplane. (RR just make the engines). However, popularly there is a family of operating systems referred to as "Linux". No one disputes that. The issue is whether the article should be named (a) by what I and many say is the proper name for a family of operating systems, "GNU/Linux"; or (b) in such a way as to avoid disambiguation issues e.g. "Linux (operating system)"; or (c) as it is currently named, thus misappropriating the undisputed (by anyone here) proper name of an operating system kernel. Paul Beardsell (talk) 18:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This article's title is settled. That you and Gronky have decided to re-hash it in the last 24 hours is disheartening, but there's been no significant support for retitling this article in the last two years (since the last huge debate on the issue). Silence implies consensus. Go read the archives. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

@silence implies consensus: Which is why the silence is broken here. Okoura (talk) 01:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

'Linux (Operating System)' as page title would still be too ambiguous. I am with ManWithRedShoe here in so far that I think that this article should be called (or merged) with 'Linux Distribution' (I do not see the conflict with 'GNU/Linux distribution' though. They would be still be a distribution with Linux as kernel and as such a 'Linux Distribution'. --Okoura (talk) 01:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The article naming question

There is, for the sake of argument, a loose collection of things popularly referred to as "Widgit" and then there is a unique gadget which *all* agree is properly called "Widgit". Furthermore, *all* agree that *the* essential property required for something to be considered to be a member of the popularly named Widgit collection is that it contains the gadget called Widgit.

Some hold that the properly named Widgit gadget should be filed at WP under "Widgit (gadget)" and that the loose collection of things containing the Widgit gadget sould be filed under "Widgit".

Others contend that the unique gadget which *all* concede is properly named "Widgit" should be filed under that name at WP. The collection of object popularly called Widgit should, they say, be filed under "Widgit (collection)", or something similar.

Yet others suggest that some disambiguation is obviously necessary and propose that the unique spot "Widgit" in the WP namespace be occupied by a disamibuation page pointing to both "Widgit (collection)" and to "Widgit (gadget)". They claim this is a fairly standard way of coping with such issues at WP and is a compromise with which all should be reasonably happy.

Paul Beardsell (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The general issue is discussed at WP:NAME. If the most common reason for linking to Linux is to refer to the OS (which is the case here), that is where the OS article should go, with a hatnote referring to similar articles which are less likely targets of the link. Furthermore, this isn't a dispassionate case, because the primary reason that you, Gronky, Grandscribe and a number of other editors have for wishing Linux to be a disambiguation or redirect page is because of the misconception that placing the OS article there implies an endorsement and therefore a rejection of your own naming convention. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

How you read my mind or guess my intentions I have no idea, but you should choose a more reliable method. How should I categorise the motives of someone who goes about engineering mass unreasoned edits from "GNU/Linux" to "Linux"? That so many links that previously would have linked to GNU/Linux now link here is because of that! And then you use that to support your argument of the above paragraph. Disgraceful. What is *your* agenda? Paul Beardsell (talk) 08:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

My rationale is explained clearly on my user page. As Mako and I discussed above, there are two issues here: the naming of the OS article, and the general policy of referring to the OS across Wikipedia. As far as I'm concerned the first issue was settled at least two years ago, with little except for sporadic appeals to have it changed. The RfC is on the second issue. This has been explained to you a number of times since you originally brought your "Mercedes" analogy here in March, while you keep returning to first principles to re-argue your case. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems you've ignored a couple of applicable first principles. See below. Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

We should follow the example set by Linus Torvalds himself. When he first released his kernel in 1991 he used the name linux only to refer to the kernel not to the entire OS(kernel+GNU). As he well explained in his release notes most of the software beyond the kernel is GNU software. He clearly said that GNU was not part of the kernel. He used the name linux only for the kernel. If we want to talk about anything other than the kernel for example the complete OS we should use the name GNU/linux.--Grandscribe (talk) 12:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Applicable WP guidelines

I'm sick'n'tired of being told that there are rules which, those who quote them do hold, apply specifically to this article naming controversy as if the question is settled and there is not the tiniest wriggle room for any alternative interpretation.

I wonder if this rule is to found in the missing red shoe, or if it was overlooked during some thumping great brute force editing effort:

use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things[24]

Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The name doesn't conflict with the name of the kernel, it comes directly from the name of the kernel. BTW, that's why I supported the compromise proposal to use "Linux (operating system)" title for the page -- because even though "Operating systems that use Linux kernel" is correct it's a rather long title. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Wriggle, wriggle, shame. No conflict? This ongoing discussion shows there is conflict. There are other alternatives to your unwieldy suggestion. "Linux (operating system)" is one. If unwieldiness is your only objection then the issue is now settled. Paul Beardsell (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The ongoing discussion shows that some people want to call it "GNU/Linux", I haven't seen many people complaining that they were looking for information about the kernel and they got to this page by mistake, but as I said I'm open to using "Linux (operating system)" for clarity. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 19:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

---

And:

In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. For example a "common" name for a tsunami is "tidal wave" (this term being less often used for the tides-related tidal bore). For this reason, the Tidal wave page is a disambiguation page, with links to the two other pages, and not a page giving details about either tsunami or tidal bore.[25]

Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"Well-accepted" -- I have doubts that GNU/Linux is well-accepted. Even people directly involved in the subject like Linus Torvalds don't accept the term. The term is virtually inexistent for media. While I've heard people talking at CNN, ABC, NBC, etc. about both "tsunami" and "tidal waves" I've never heard them talking about GNU/Linux. (again sure there are _some_ books and _some_ fringe magazines that use the term but the majority uses "Linux" -- that's the well-accepted term not GNU/Linux. As for confusion, there's no chance to confuse anything, there are two separate articles: Linux and Linux kernel and clear disambiguation text on the top of the page. Let me venture a guess... this is not about confusion, this is about promoting a POV, right? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

You need to use a dictionary. Words are not there for you to ascribe your own meaning to them to suit your own purpose. And you put up a straw man. I am not insisting that GNU/Linux be used as the name of this article. I *am* insisting we follow all of the guidelines as best we can, not just the ones that suit your POV (two can play your game of POV calling). There is confusion otherwise there would be no hatnote, no disambiguation page, and this argument would not be happening. Paul Beardsell (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that's what I thought, I didn't know that you don't militate for using "GNU/Linux" in this page. If you don't want to use "GNU/Linux" then is fine by me, I have no further comment. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 19:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

---

Also:

But it does mean that we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading or commonly regarded as offensive to one or more groups of people. ibid.

Of course, it is unreasonably misleading to call an o/s Linux when that is but a part of it. And it is well documented that that one branch of the FOSS community considers it offensive.

Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, other people consider GNU/Linux offensive and misleading... so we are even. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If(!) you're right that means we have twice the reason for changing the name of this article. Once again, I am prepared to compromise and not call this article GNU/Linux. Paul Beardsell (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

---

I've only been scratching the surface:

If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".[26]

The problem we discuss here is the name, not what is the primary topic. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh poppycock! Read the bloody guideline. It is about article *naming*. Paul Beardsell (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, article naming when there is a problem with establishing the primary topic. I don't see that's the case here, here is pretty clear that we talk about "operating system that use Linux kernel" -- man with one red shoe (talk) 19:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

When there is another term (such as Pocket billiards instead of Pool) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Delta rocket instead of Delta), that should be used.[27]

Paul Beardsell (talk) 14:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"GNU/Linux" is not a "complete name", it's just a name invented to promote GNU. Moreover, it's a fringe name that's almost never used by media and the general public. It's usage is one or two orders of magnitude smaller than "Linux" you'd have to bring more compelling reasons than "completeness" to promote a fringe name. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 14:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not insisting on any "fringe" name. Not that it is, of course. Paul Beardsell (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

(1) All names are made up. (2) You need to say in what sense why it is not a "complete name". Paul Beardsell (talk) 15:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

(1) I totally agree with you. (2) it should include other stuff in the name like X or KDE/GNOME... I mean using your definition for completeness, to me names don't have to be descriptive, I don't believe that we need to call a vehicle: "wheels/engine/car" -- man with one red shoe (talk) 19:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Following the guidelines

The only non-controversial way I can see of following the guidelines is as follows:

• This page is renamed "Linux (operating system)".
• "Linux (disambiguation)" is renamed "Linux".

I have a lot of sympathy for re-naming this page "GNU/Linux" but there are two reasons why perhaps it should not be so named. (1) Some people are implacably opposed to this idea (they refuse to admit the crucial contributions RMS and the FSF have made) and (2) whereas *all* Linux distributions would have been built using GNU, a small number of them contain little GNU.

Additionally I propose this page be merged with Linux distribution.

Paul Beardsell (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

But for the 2nd point, I think the Linux kernel is actually swapped out of the OS more often than GNU is. For example, even in small gadgets (which are arguably not the point of this article) such as OpenMoko and the Familar distro (for the Compaq iPaq handhelds) use GNU libc. Meanwhile, Debian and Gentoo offer their distros with a FreeBSD kernel slotted in to replace the Linux kernel, and the Nexenta distro offers the operating system with the Solaris kernel in place of the Linux kernel.

Actually, I don't know of any such distributions that resemble a modern Unix operating system but which don't include GNU software. So I think that 2nd point is a point against calling it "Linux".

For point 1, implementing a policy that harms the users just because a handful of editors are persistent is not good for Wikipedia.

Also, keep in mind that, although some people here (including myself) would argue to change the name of the page, the original point of this Rfc was to decide, yes or no, should use of the term "GNU/Linux" be completely banned on Wikipedia (with the exception of cases where it's mentioned just so that the debate can be documented). This idea has very little support. --Gronky (talk) 16:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I personally I'm fine with the proposals, however I have a better one (or so I think):

• move "Linux kernel" to "Linux" -- that's the correct and well-accepted name, right?
• have a subsection in "Linux" about "Operating Systems that use Linux" (and maybe a separate page if that section is too big) where we talk about issues that we treat here. In GNU page there's a link to "Distributions of GNU" so everybody should be happy with this solution.

How about this proposal? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 19:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I would personally support it. —mako๛ 21:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I too deem this to be a sound proposal. --Okoura (talk) 04:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I could just about live with Red Shoe's proposal and I think the result would be a little better than the position we are currently in. However I expect that Chris Cunningham will not like it and, much more importantly, the proposal gybes with most of the guidelines I have quoted in bold, above. I can't see how, if you follow the guidelines, you can avoid the conclusion that "Linux" must be a disambiguation page. Paul Beardsell (talk) 05:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Where would GNU/Linux point? When I want to say that XYZ runs on GNU/Linux, which article would I link to? --Gronky (talk) 10:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think GNU/Linux should be like a dictionary page where the name and its origin is explained, basically the info that's presented here: Linux#GNU/Linux it should contain links to GNU, Linux, and GNU/Linux naming controversy. However, it shouldn't contain information about the OS like this current "Linux" page does because that would amount to taking sides and promoting a POV (minority one for that matter) As for programs that run on Linux... it depends on what they claim, if they say that they run on Red Hat then we need to say that, same for Ubuntu or other distros, otherwise it would be "original research". If they claim they run on "Linux" then we link to "Linux" page, if they claim to run on "GNU/Linux" we link to GNU/Linux page, and from there people can go to either GNU or Linux page at their choice. This way we don't impose our view on the matter, don't do original research and let people choose what page interests them. I also don't think that any of the text in this current "Linux" page doesn't fit in either "Linux kernel" (renamed "Linux"), GNU, Linux distribution, GNU/Linux naming controversy, can you please tell me which info would not find a place in any of those pages? Most importantly I think that "Linux kernel" needs to be renamed "Linux" because that's the right name -- trademarked even... Linux page would also contain information about "Operating System that use Linux" which is only logical, I don't see any big problems with my approach also is neutral in the sense that it doesn't impose any names, it just explain them in a NPOV way and let people decide if they want to read info from GNU or from Linux. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 15:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, broadly I'm in agreement with that. GNU/Linux could, however, also point to Linux (operating system) as any example of GNU/Linux is an "operating systems with Linux as the kernel". Note the converse is not quite true as it is not correct that every Linux-containing operating system contains GNU. This exposes the problem of how to name those Unix-like operating system distributions which have the standard GNU environment but have a non-Linux kernel. E.g. GNU/BSD is definitely not "Linux", even though the man in the street will not know the difference, and will call it that. If we are going to allow that sloppiness here I suggest we call every operating system "Windows" and be done with it. Paul Beardsell (talk) 13:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all is BSD not GNU/BSD (except Debian I don't think anybody uses that term), second of all this argument of "people on the street don't know the difference" is [insert bad word here]. I hope nobody else will repeat it, it's like saying that you customize Linux to look like Windows a computer illiterate will be able to tell the difference, how relevant is that? We don't talk here about BSD, we don't treat BSD in Linux page, no RELIABLE SOURCE (that's what matters here) makes a confusion between BSD and Linux. Sure, you can run KDE on both, heck soon you'll be able to run KDE on Mac and probably Windows, confusion and lack of understanding is not the subject of this article. Sorry for the outburst, but please, for the love of GNU, NEVER repeat this... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 15:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Summarizing Arguments

I'm sure we're all getting a little tired so lets try to keep moving forward.

Paul and others: Let's try to keep separate issues separate. It is definitely worth having a conversation about the title of this page but I think it would be best if this was a separate argument than the discussion of guidelines references to this page elsewhere in Wikipedia (i.e., the subject of the most recent RfC). Additionally, we really should think about summarizing the arguments that have been made. Chris Cunningham has done great work on this but we need more participation on the text of this summary so we can create something we can all refer to.

I have started a new talk subpage with an enlarged and edited version of Chris's summary. I strongly suggest that anyone participating so far go read it, edit it, and add to it until you feel that it represents your opinions adequately and concisely.

On the same page, I have started a short list of the proposed remedies and ways forward. We've seem be talking very little about this but it seems like a productive place to put effort. Please go edit and add to that as well.

I've moved this all to Talk:Linux/Referring to this article. Let's continue this discussion over there. —mako๛ 17:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

To GNU or not to GNU that is the question

I came here after checking the edit history of an IP address that removed GNU from a page. After reading the edit comment and the subsequent revert comment from an editor I then read the whole history regarding the issue on this page. My worry is that during that reading I did not see one substantive argument for the removal of GNU. So my question is why is GNU being removed?DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 08:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Please read the above arguments by Chris Cunningham and others. They explain in detail why it is being removed.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I wrote above "I then read the whole history regarding the issue on this page." That includes the comments from Chris Cunningham and others. I did not see one substantive argument for the removal of GNU. So why is it being removed?DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 17:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean removing references to GNU/Linux in favor of Linux or removing plain old references to GNU? I think Chris Cunningham would agree that the arguments summarized at the top of the Talk:Linux/Referring to this article touch on all of the major arguments for the latter action. The argument seems to be more in favor of consistency throughout Wikipedia and in favor of Linux as the preferred term. It premature to start purging references to GNU/Linux until this discussion has concluded. It is wholly imappropriate to categorically remove GNU in any general sense throughout Wikipedia. —mako๛ 19:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

My response is based on the fact that we have nearly 23 pages of discussion on the issue, and repeating them again seems kind of pointless. It is also just mako's opinion that it is inappropriate.-Localzuk^(talk) 19:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing inappropriate about mako's opinion. Yes there are a lot of pages and after reading it all I could not see any substantive argument. Localzuk can you provide specific links to diffs that do show any substantive arguments? By substantive I mean strong arguments that have not been addressed.DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 20:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The main argument imho is WP:WEIGHT (see above). No matter what kind of media you check (computer science, tech books, books, magazines, websites, journals ...) you find a magnitude (or more) references to Linux than GNU/Linux. Those calling it GNU/Linux is significantly in the minority. As such we need to mention it (as a significant minority position) - but it is WP:UNDUE to go beyond that. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You've said that before. Out of frustration with selective quoting of the guidelines I reviewed many of them myself and I think they do not support your POV particularly well. There are a number of other guidelines which bear directly on this matter and I quoted them above, in bold, at Talk:Linux#Applicable_WP_guidelines. Paul Beardsell (talk) 12:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

In the above mentioned thread (w. the bold things) you are referring to guidelines (randomly), but WP:WEIGHT isn't a guideline to pick and choose from. Its a policy. And i also noticed that your comments on the thread about weight, stood out by not reacting to the argument at all. Try actually addressing it. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

In a word, consistency. Originally, about 5-10% of Wikipedia's free software articles used the minority terminology without any specific rationale for doing so - it was just the terminology used by whomever last edited the page. After having finally settled the argument here that this page was fine at Linux (which took several years, and about eighteen pages of discussion), I took the time to make Wikipedia's use of said terminology consistent. The imagined campaign against GNU which attracts so many people to this discussion is in people's minds; I've put a huge amount of work into improving Wikipedia's coverage of free software and GNU in particular, which includes constructive editing and discussion around articles on GNU, HURD, Stallman et cetera. Unfortunately that isn't enough for that group of editors who believe that Wikipedia should present the opinions of such subjects as fact in spite of our policies on maintaining a neutral and impartial point of view which gives precedent to majority opinion in cases where factual accuracy may be disputed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Just so I am clear can you confirm the following is an accurate summary of your position? "Prefer terminology that the majority of sources use. Make sure this is consistent throughout Wikipedia." DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 04:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC)