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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 99.50.191.169 (talk) at 14:50, 20 August 2011 (→‎santorum again). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Simplifying - ban the div tag?

The complex rev. of page User:Jimbo_Wales was oldid=444912787. -Wikid77 04:06, 18 August 2011

Ok, I don't mean 'ban' in the sense of a project-wide ban, but here is what I am thinking about.

I just went to edit my own user page User:Jimbo Wales because I noticed someone had placed a photo on there that had nothing to do with me at all. (Lovely photo, but I thought I would just remove it.) And as I was editing, I thought about my keynote speech at Wikimania this year and how I think I should take a leadership role in coaching all of us to make editing easier for relative newcomers. (Think of a wonderful, smart person who would be a good writer, who has just made 2-3 edits and is thinking of getting more involved... but who doesn't know a lot about programming / coding / markup languages.)

My user page is quite pretty, but it is chock full of div tags (and much worse). Please go click on edit and see. Here's a sample of markup: {{#ifexpr: {{CURRENTMONTH}}=8 and {{CURRENTDAY}}=7 |{{!}}- {{!}} style="text-align: center; {{gradient|#ddddff|#eeeeff|vertical}} border: 1px solid #88a; {{box-shadow|1px|1px|6px|#445}} {{border-radius|1em}}" colspan="2" {{!}} [[File:Birthday cake (fun).png|left|200px]] [[File:Birthday cake (fun).png|right|200px]] <span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif; font-size: 16pt">{{Break|5}}Happy {{Ordinal|{{#expr:{{CURRENTYEAR}}-1966}}|sup=yes}} Birthday Jimbo, from everyone here at Wikipedia!!</span> }}

So, like, I'm a programmer and I can at least read the general gist of this. Once a year, on my birthday, this will magically change part of my userpage to give me a sweet birthday message. Great, I mean, that really is actually quite cool.

But what isn't cool is some of this markup. Ok, many people can probably roughly guess at what things like "text-align: center" might mean. But what the heck is "{{!}}"??? I know that the curly braces denote a template. Do we really have a template out there named as exclamation point? (The sad answer is yes, yes we do.) What does it do? Why? Why do I need to know this? If the benefit is some minor degree of flexibility/beauty in my userpage, but the cost is that a relatively new user such as myself (haha) feels intimidated from editing, not because I'm dumb and can't figure things out if I try (I am a programmer, after all), but because, jeez, I have a life, and I want to write an encyclopedia not get a diploma in wiki markup.

So here is what I am thinking about. I'm thinking about going through my user page with a chain saw and return it to a 'good old days' style... and to encourage others to do the same... and eventually to encourage the Foundation to develop the visual editing tools to allow a certain amount of beauty but without forcing people to learn this horrifying way of doing things.

But this is my own userpage, so of course within rational bounds I can do what I want. Slightly more controversially, I may start to go through articles on my watchlist that I edit for content (generally, UK peers and BLPs that I help monitor) with a general bias against including div tags and other such monstrosities. Not "with a chainsaw" mind you (that would be disrupting Wikipedia to make a point), but rather with a gentle eye towards making Wikipedia the encyclopedia anyone can edit.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:20, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, most of the really bad markup is outside of article space (like on your userpage) but we need it for places like portals or the main page. The worst markup in article space is usually in the references, unfortunately. —Kusma (t·c) 11:46, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are many things in life many of us enjoy using without understanding exactly how they work, and certainly without feeling any necessity to create them from scratch. That's most people, not techies. Techies love to code from scratch and have a visceral dislike for anything anyone else has coded. Whatever it is, they feel an immediate name to 'improve' it. Some write their own word processors and spreadsheets. It's who they are. Go ahead and embrace your Inner Geek, but don't assume everyone has one. If I wanted to use that Birthday thing myself, I would copy and paste it. Why would I want to recreate it myself? The obvious fields to change are CURRENTDAY, CURRENTMONTH, CURRENTYEAR and the message. I can do that, no diploma required. So can everyone else. I can't create an infobox or a table either, but I can copy and modify ones that others have done. Which is a good thing, as it helps with consistency. Do you honestly want each UK Peer article to be 'creative and unique' in its formatting, or do you want the focus to be on the contents? I just don't buy the assumption that there are vast legions of potential Wikipedia contributors who are violently allergic to any and all code. They just want to use it, not write it. Most people have used Word and Excel in school or work and understand the concept of highlight and click an option. That implies knowing what the options are. What they need is to be able to mouse-over the more cryptic Wikipedia symbols and see an explanation of what they'll do. Unfortunately, Wikipedia steadfastly refuses to provide this in the editing box, so people are understandably frustrated trying to figure out what the various 'Wiki markup' symbols mean. They're not stupid, they just don't enjoy being jerked around by people who enjoy discouraging non-techies. Ten years, and no one has yet found the time to write a useful mouse-over for these? Really? They can find all sorts of time to create birthday cakes et al, yet a few minutes for the mouse-overs is simply not possible? Jimmy, it's insulting to see Click on the character or tag to insert it into the edit window for every single example of code. We know that. We get it. What we want is to know what the codes do, and we know very well that shouldn't require a video tutorial, endless reading, less-than-useful 'wizards', a personal mentor - or a diploma, as you put it. 99.50.188.77 (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unless the articles you maintain are different from the ones I do, I don't think you'll actually find much of that stuff. What would really be most valuable to new editors, I believe, would be to provide a simpler way of constructing references. For medical journal articles there is an excellent tool to do it automatically given a Pubmed index number, but for other types of references it is usually a huge pain in the ass, even for experienced editors. Looie496 (talk) 15:38, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you on the aim but not the priority. We have a team of people developing a WYSIWYG interface - I'd be inclined to wait until they announce they can't do it or they are doing all but templates x, y and z - then go round and see if the bits they can't do are really needed in articles. If you want to push the simplification agenda I'd suggest revisiting the maintenance templates. I suggested a while back that we work out which ones are needed to warn readers, and which others succeed in recruiting readers and newbies to fix things and replace all the rest with hidden categories. The only thing hindering such a move is that some people like these templates, but if we used a bot to replace all orphan templates with a hidden category of orphan it would be an easy and painless simplification of the pedia.
Oh and I love the idea of the diploma for wiki markup - how do I apply for mine? Wait, this could be sensible, how do we get an academic institution to start assessing editors and awarding diplomas? I'm thinking this could apply on a very broad range from badges in the scouts to points towards Open University courses. When I was in the scouts I got a badge for growing a bunch of vegetables, I'm sure we could agree criteria for a scout badge. ϢereSpielChequers 15:59, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The orphan tag issue does need fixing... discussions at Wikiproject Orphanage seem to fizzle out but moving the tags to a talk page / hidden category / end-of-article template should be a priority. No reader or inexperienced editor needs to see them at the head of so many pages.
@Jimbo I would definitely sort your userpage out if you want to. It's become extremely bloated and has an outdated 'web 1.0' feeling. Userpages that work well often just have a single nice image from commons and a small amount of text Jebus989✰ 11:24, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at this code, the reason for its complexity is (a) it's trying to conditionally add rows to an HTML table, which requires the Template:! kludge to pass the "|" character and (b) it was a custom job, not using any template pages to break down the problem conceptually. The first I can't do anything about, but the second I can. I've apparently recreated the output using the following code (changing your birthday from 8-7 just to make it display today):
{{User:Wnt/Templates/Addrow|conditional={{User:Wnt/Templates/Dateconditional|8|13}}|style={{User:Wnt/Templates/Birthdaystyle}}|colspan=2|content={{User:Wnt/Templates/Birthdaycontent|name=Jimbo|from=everyone here at Wikipedia!!|byear=1966}}}}
If you'd like, I could substitute this code on your userpage; also you might prefer I move the templates to be subpages of your page. I've written them now to be generalizable to anyone. But likely one or more of these templates already exists somewhere, very likely the code could be written better ... and without a doubt, there must be a better birthday cake image and font.
I understand the frustration with this code, but I would bet money there's no way that any WYSIWYG editor is going to have a way to let you add a row to a table to display a custom message just on your birthday. You need some ugly programming like language to do that; but sorting it out into individual templates seems neater. Wnt (talk) 14:09, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But I think there is absolutely no valid reason to have it on anyone user page at all, ever, under any circumstances. It's a bad thing that we have the ability to do such things, at the cost of ridiculous coding.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with making Wikipedia the encyclopedia that "Anybody can edit", so might I suggest a feature where you can "hide code" or "show code". This would make things convenient for people who get scared away and intimidated by seeing code; while alternatively, a "show code" button should make it easy enough for more experienced editors to continue building pages into more aesthetically pleasing layouts (not too mention functionally better). Consider also implementing Google's Font API's, with restrictions of course (wouldn't want the horrendous layouts that happened to Myspace), but beautiful typography is nothing to squawk at, especially for an encyclopedia, it could really push Wikipedia to the next level, least I think so. The current skins are just - well - brutally ugly. No offense. I had to quickly revert to the default Vector style. The others styles are what I would have expected from a website in the 90's. Couldn't you just hire some good designers to come up with some good alternatives? Well anyway, still a great site. Good work. No complaints just suggesting whats on my mind. Jason (talk) 06:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some interesting comments from Jimbo, I will say. Sometimes, I feel the same way when I look at my userpage, and I did that all myself :) Anyways, when I was a newcomer here some 3 or so years ago, I have had some RL experience in web design, HTML/CSS, etc., but MediaWiki was brand new to me, though I did experiment with some other wikis back in the day (I'm talking back in 2006-2007). On the other hand, I understand what a black box is. I realized that some things worked for reasons past my level of knowledge because of that "black box", and that, if I wanted to, I could delve deeper into that box anytime and see how the insides work.

Anyways, long story short, if you want to "increase" the size of that black box, then more templates or subpages would be needed; to decrease its size would logically be the opposite. –MuZemike 22:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • The solution here is not to take a chainsaw to things we don't understand, but to solve the actual problem. The problem is that the markup on your user page is cryptic and difficult to decipher. The solution is to make it easier to decipher without losing functionality. There is already a way to do this, and it's called templates. Templates are routinely used to hide away the nasty code that is required to make something dynamic happen. It would be rather trivial to create a template which simplifies the code into something like this: {{BirthdayMessage|month=8|day=7}}, and a solution such as this has the added benefit that now other users can easily add a birthday message to their user pages without having to understand <div> tags and {{!}} templates and CSS styles. —SW— confess 22:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think that even {{BirthdayMessage|month=8|day=7}} is ridiculous and wrong. It's a conceptual failure if we think that's how we should do things, I think. Ask yourself, would facebook do it that way? No. Yes, people who want to be app developers can develop apps for facebook. I'm sure there's one to pop up a birthday message on my profile at facebook. (Of course facebook's permission model is different from ours, radically so, but that isn't my point.) My point is that no one should have to learn that kind of markup language.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's my concern: Why is it "sad" that we have a Template:!? You could say that it would be better to name the template something more transparent like Template:PipeHack or even Template:Use this to include literal pipes in parser function parameters, but either one of those makes the readability problem worse, not better. Is it sad that we need the template just because we want to make things look pretty? Is it sad that we can't write a parser that distinguishes automatically between a literal pipe and an operator pipe? Is it sad that the pipe operator is overloaded and used for tables, for pipelinks, for image parameter delimiting, for template parameter delimiting, and for parser function parameter delimiting? Powers T 13:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it is obviously sad that an end user should ever need to know anything like it. People should not have to ever think about such arcane questions about the pipe operator being overloaded, etc. People should not ever have to write code to make things look pretty. I use facebook nearly every single day, and I know how to do a lot of nice things. Smart people who are developers made them for me. I don't need to know how they did it. End users should be protected from such stuff, absolutely, or we simply should not have it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:42, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      If more people knew the pipe/bar "|" was overloaded, then we might get #then and #else, sooner, to be allowed in MediaWiki if-expressions. -Wikid77 06:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Facebook is a poor model to follow. On Facebook, you have end users and you have developers, and 99% of the end users will never become developers, because you need to know how to program, and how to interface with the Facebook API, and have a server on which to host the program, and all sorts of other technical details that keep even me, a professional software engineer, from actually coding any applications. Wiki markup and template coding, on the other hand, may be hard to understand, but it's much more accessible than nearly any other programming language. People like me, who don't find relatively simple markup intimidating, can work on these complex templates without needing help from "full-time" MediaWiki developers and without having to learn a full language.
        If we were to obfuscate MediaWiki's useful abilities behind complex code and applications and gadgets, people like me might be shut out of the development process. By exposing it, we make people want to learn more, and then they can help us make these neat things. Powers T 00:56, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm all for going back to our roots and all.. but this kind of 'dumbing-down' of Wikipedia could have a negative effect on the quality of content. I'd think we want to attract the intelligent intuitive crowd.. we're an encyclopedia, not a social networking site. When I first started on Wikipedia I knew nothing of wiki-markup, but that only made me eager to learn, now I consider myself privileged to have this knowledge, and willing to teach it to others. -- œ™ 05:01, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have to agree with the above; yet Wikipedia already suffers from some pretty big divides once you get to the serious Javascript applications (like User:AndyZ/peerreviewer, though reading that I see there is an effort at Wikipedia:WikiProject User scripts to start helping people up). Development of the Wiki software itself seems beyond the reach of even the experienced editor. Clearly the idealistic optimum situation would not be to give Wikimedia money to hire developers but to have an active community that creates developers from scratch. Wnt (talk) 07:30, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, Jimbo's user-page had become overly complex (see revision: oldid=444912787), and too many fringe people have been griping that "Wikipedia is too hard to use" (but not according to user-survey), so avoiding some complex markup is part of the solution. However, we know from computer usability studies that use of "non-procedural languages" is the answer. Hence, we can adequately simplify a gob of nested markup: {{#if:{{A}}=8 and {{B}}=7|{{{x}}}|{{{y|}}}{{box-shadow|1px|1px|6px|#445}}...}}, as replaced by a simple template, such as {{BirthdayMessage |month=8|day=7}}. The evidence of how such templates are accepted by users, on enwiki, is clear from the use of millions of template calls in the form of infoboxes and conversions. It's not like "63 people" are coding all infoboxes, instead there are thousands of editors creating and using templates. Once all the complex CSS styles and wikitable codes are hidden inside such templates, then most users have no trouble editing the article pages. We need to beware the management-by-gripe syndrome, where only the "squeaky wheel gets the oil" when all "wheels" need oil on a regular basis. A small handful of people keep complaining, griping, and bemoaning the misperception that Wikipedia is too complicated (?), while the broader user surveys reveal perhaps only 9% worry about the technology, whereas more users (43%) want to know their editing will help people, not be deleted, want to know what to edit, and not anger other editors to argue about the writing. Even the 9% who worried about techno-issues could perhaps be taught some special editing tips (WP:Advanced text formatting), and then the real worries would be very few. Quality-control guru W. Edwards Deming warned of dangers from gripes, which are not a representative sample of all end-users, and warned about "zero defects" overkill, when customers might not mind a few glitches (rarely need to be "perfect"). That's why readers scan past vandalism, and people keep reading (high pageviews) despite the rare gripes, "There are a few errors in articles" (so?). Most readers do not care. Meanwhile, rely on results of broader survey sample sizes (> 1,001), and beware of gripes, especially since negative, pessimistic people are perhaps the source of most gripes. They do not reflect the broader reality. This is an issue we need to discuss more in the future. -Wikid77 06:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The other day, I decided to shunt the header and other wiki-markup to a separate template (see [1]), so the only thing there besides the bot-archiving and template transclusion are actual discussions with simple, everyday wiki-markup. Does make things significantly neater, I will say. –MuZemike 22:30, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo's page used to say "Since this page is just so simple and plain, my ultimate dream is that some person who thinks it is fun would come along and make it look perfect, or close to perfect." Has that dream died? Or is Jimbo's position now that it's up to a MediaWiki developer to create intuitive tools to make the page look perfect, rather than up to the average Wikipedia editor using the existing HTML, CSS, and MediaWiki tools to make the page look perfect? I, for one, greatly prefer the latter route, because the former route is closed to so many of us. Powers T 13:51, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Google lists 2 WP pages but needs versus-2 title

Tangent from above topic: #SEO test.

I think Google has already provided a neat solution: it now lists 2 WP pages together (senator-bio + neologism), so in the future, a subarticle will not eclipse the bio-page just because of WP:RECENTISM. However, I think, in subarticles which are either legal cases, family feuds, or name slurs (etc.), then show both names, such as:

Also, in the case of wide controversies:

  • "Animal rights and Mother Teresa" not "Mother Teresa's animal cruelty" (or other outrageous allegations, even with many sources);
  • "UFO issues and Albert Enstein" not "Einstein talks of UFO sightings".

If a fringe topic must be presented, due to clear notability in WP:RS documents, then do not taint the main article, but rather, create a pro/con subarticle where the fringe idea can be expanded without contaminating the main article, and also provide space to "refute" or offset the fringe idea with NPOV-balanced text. Such a case would be article "Alternative ideas of Titanic sinking" where reliable sources report crewman seeing a UFO (not really) which shot the ship using ice-weapons to stop them reporting the sighting. Nowhere within article "RMS Titanic" would the fringe idea ("UFO") be mentioned (unless it later became widely backed by evidence or later research); no, instead, the neutral title would be linked (as "Alternative ideas...of sinking"). In the same way, nowhere in article "Mother Teresa" would "animal cruelty" be stated as a fringe idea of her actions.
Using that naming tactic, similar to naming legal cases ("U.S. State of Texas v. John Doe"), then criminal acts are not stated and both parties get named in case the event becomes a smear (Texas is just as likely to be wrong, as is John Doe). Plus, in conflicts, state the aggressor (plaintiff) first, so that the, perhaps blameless, target (defendant), gets lower billing (as in "top billing" of actor names in movie scroll credits). I really think we can learn from the legal system (and film schools) how to avoid sensational allegations and soapboxing of lesser characters, or fringe ideas in main articles, and in page titles. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I entirely understand this proposal, but I agree that this is done already and should be used where necessary. As I was telling someone recently, we have Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory mostly to keep fringe views out of the main Pearl Harbor articles. These views may be worth mentioning, but in some cases they don't deserve more than a sentence in main articles. It's easier to create a repository for them then to fight over their inclusion in other articles. But that article probably shouldn't be the most prominent one in search engine results.   Will Beback  talk  09:33, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
People are suggesting that Google ranks a page higher for whichever Wikipedia page gets more clicks (after a few days), and hence it is good for Google to list 2 pages, both "Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory" plus "Attack on Pearl Harbor" (as back-to-back entries on the search-results page). In that manner, if a fringe TV show causes people to read the conspiracy page more, then at least other readers will still see the main article as WP choice #2 in the list. Remember: in this year (2011), Google changed every result click to a boomerang spy-click, back to Google, to record and tally your choices, where formerly, clicking a search result went directly to that matching website (without Google's knowledge of which result was clicked). Now, if a user accidentally clicks on "Girls gone wild" then Google records that click, noting "which girls were chosen" and perhaps counts if "blondes have more fun". To avoid the spy-clicks, a user must right-click "Copy shortcut" and edit the link to bypass Google, as just a direct link to the chosen website. However, perhaps Google also tallies people who use right-click to bypass spy-clicks (and tallies those copied shortcuts), so copy URLs from the screen (unless copy/paste is also tallied). Privacy requires a lot of work. I think these peeping-tom Google spy-clicks started in March 2011, about the time Google Search dropped "weather" (like "weather London") as a magic search keyword, but I'm not sure exactly when. Anyway, a WP fringe page might outrank the main article, but hopefully, Google continues to list both pages as results for a search. -Wikid77 20:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Linking fringe ideas

This is a tangent from talk of allegations in BLP bio-pages.

People have noted that filling a BLP bio-page with recent-news allegations can distort the page balance, giving WP:UNDUE weight to insinuations of guilt, in a long-term bio-page. However, splitting that text into a sub-article could cause the allegations to outrank the bio-page in Google, as if recommended by Wikipedia as the most-important page about the person (or concept article). So, the issues of concern involve:

  • C1. How to limit allegations within a bio-page?
  • C2. How to title the sub-article to not outrank the bio-page?   -I think Google now lists 2 pages together (close ranks)
  • C3. How to avoid the sub-article from becoming a POV-fork to dwell on negatives about a person/subject, when separated from the main article?
  • C4. How to avoid WP:BOMB wiki-bombing of the fringe, allegations sub-article "title" as a see-also entry or navbox entry in hundreds of other pages?

I have just started this tangent topic, very fast, so I am unaware of the possible answers. Perhaps some people are saying there is no easy solution, as a Catch-22 problem, of being damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't when writing allegations. However, I wanted to focus the discussion here, while people are thinking of ways to repeat an outrageous allegation, or fringe theory, without staining or smearing the main article. More later. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:06, revised 10:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

C2: it's really outside of our remit to attempt to manipulate PageRank Jebus989✰ 15:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A real and significant problem - the only real solution is to entirely deprecate "current accusations" where no indictment has been filed. And, more importantly, to bar "links" in other articles to the page listing charges and allegations, or connecting third parties to the acts of the primary party. Wikipedia does not need to be a news source for allegations - let's limit BLP articles to being written scrupulously and not "scruplelessly". Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Totally wrong. If the reliable sources print it, it's not a fringe idea. And attacking sourcing directly is a mathematically precise perversion of WP:V. Now I agree we should never have had the allegation against Strauss-Kahn on the Main Page, but we should certainly have covered it to the best of our ability, reflecting all viewpoints. Wnt (talk) 16:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am thinking the solution involves "neutral naming of subarticles" as in the manner of court cases which use "versus" rather than naming the charges in the title, exhibit "The people versus Larry Flynt" or "U.S. State of xx v. John Doe". Some outrageous examples of fringe ideas might be:
  • "George Washington's wife-beating concerns" (if real) would be named as "Marital concerns of George Washington" which might also summarize positive reports of his marriage, along with any well-sourced negative text, assuming such concerns were documented in WP:RS pages.
  • "Mother Teresa's sexual deviance issues" (if real) would be named as "Personal life of Mother Teresa" where any well-sourced negative claims, such as prior criminal charges, would be included after a recap of the mainstream positive aspects of her personal life.
Wikipedia can avoid article titles which appear to be "begging the question" of the negative (or positive) ideas, such as the classic "Have you stopped beating your wife?" or "John Doe's views as computer genius" (such titles are POV unbalanced). When an article title appears in Google, then it acts as begging the question that the issue has some possible merit, rather than as merely filed criminal charges, or rather than proven and upheld in various appeals courts. -Wikid77 15:36, revised 15:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's clearly correct - titles should never beg the question (nice to see the phrase used correctly). That's part of NPOV. Dougweller (talk) 15:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For a real example of a similar problem (now moved, but we are still arguing over the the name, the content, the topic etc) see Lewontin's fallacy. Of course, some will insist it isn't a sub-article, and that it isn't a BLP issue (I suspect that Richard Lewontin might differ)... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some major examples: I have been thinking about names of some major articles, whereas others, such as "Lewontin" might not be so obvious. In particular, I was upset to see the "Dominique Strauss-Kahn case" named in WP with the sensational phrase "sexual assault" even though there were 8? multiple charges including kidnapping, and suggestions of evading arrest. Some alternative titles for that article might be:
  • "Dominique Strauss-Kahn case" - (common title in news reports) which assumes there will not be any others soon;
  • "Dominique Strauss-Kahn hotel maid case" - that's fairly pinpointed;
  • "Dominique Strauss-Kahn case in New York" - similar to a legal title "State of New York v. Strauss-Kahn" (also pinpoints events)
The use of phrase "hotel maid" is also more of a 1-versus-2 form of title, and if the allegations prove to be false, then that title fits the notion of a "he said she said" court debate, rather than as a constant reminder and strong insinuation of sexually-deviant actions. Admittedly, some sources also use the phrase "sexual assault case" but WP is rare in using that choice of words, where most sources simply state, "Dominique Strauss-Kahn case". Considering the deadline for declaring his election candidacy was 13 July 2011, the potential for "character assassination" has already occurred in other sources (outside of WP). However, the naming of that article is a good example to consider, such as compared to child-abuse cases where suspects are often hated in presumption of guilt, such as the highly notable Casey Anthony, acquitted of child-abuse/murder in St. Petersburg, Florida on 5 July 2011. Anyway, I am thinking criminal cases should be named in the style of "Dominique Strauss-Kahn case in New York" (adding the location to pinpoint the jurisdiction). WP should avoid repeating the alleged charges in article titles. -Wikid77 05:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
[2], [3]. You could propose adding a section on article titles to BLP policy. A related policy that could comment on the matter is Wikipedia:Article_titles#Neutrality_in_article_titles. --JN466 11:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have joined conversations at WT:Article_titles, as a first step. Also, created common media redirect "Dominique Strauss-Kahn case" having 4 million Google hits. -Wikid77 06:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image filter "referendum"

Jimbo, do you think you could use your influence to put the brakes on the misnamed "referendum" happening now [Meta about the implementation of image filters on Wikipedia? It seems clear that it is premature to be discussing design and implementation before the difficult discussions of classifying images has been done. Some basic questions seem to be unanswered:

  • Will there be one classification system for all language wikis or will each wiki need its own classifications?
  • Will this apply to all images or only those from Commons?
  • Who will classify images (i.e., admins or editors or some new class of user)?
  • What are the categories (and will they apply to all wikis or will each language wiki have their own)?
  • Will users be able to flag images for possible inclusion in filters? All users or only registered users?
  • Will users have the ability to filter specific images that are not classified by the main system (a personal blacklist)?
  • Does the system need to work on low powers computers (eg OLPC, or computers not running Javascript for performance reasons)?
  • What is an acceptable level of performance degradation on Wikipedia as a whole as a result of such a system?
  • What is an acceptable level of performance degradation on a user's computer as a result of such a system?

It is possible that these questions have been considered and answered. If so, that information needs to be given to the community to digest before asking for their input. If not, perhaps it would be more sensible to pose some of these questions to the community before starting the design phase of the project in earnest.

The most contentious part of this project will be the classification of images. It is foolhardy to expect that this project can be successful unless those difficult discussions are had sooner rather than later. Many people on the referendum's talk page do not seem to grasp that implementation has been mandated by the WMF and seem to think that the referendum is a vote. Perhaps the title "referendum" was a poor choice. I urge you to call a halt to this and ask that people stop work on the design until the process issues are discussed. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have been under the impression that the referendum is being used to help answer some of those questions. Have you taken it? There is a specific area for write-in comments. Ryan Vesey Review me! 13:09, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it would be useful to ask those questions, then, rather than asking users to rate specific propositions on a scale of one to ten. Everything about this referendum seems to be designed merely to say "we asked the community for input". It is premature and misguided to be at this stage without having settled the process issues, unpleasant as that will be. I suspect that someone at the WMF decided that there would be less likelihood of the project being derailed if they wrote the code first and then presented the community with the process issue afterwards. That doesn't seem like a good way to run a software project. Frankly, the people that the WMF should be asking for input are not the people who edit Wikipedia, but those who read Wikipedia, specifically those communities that are likely to make use of any such filtering system. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:39, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I noted that the filter is far more important for "logged out" users than anyone else - a parent who has strong filters would find a child seeking the "juicy bits" would simply log out! Thus making the entire concept non-utile. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:14, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand it, it is computer specific and cookie-based. Logging out won't allow them to see the juicy bits. :) A child smart enough to delete the cookie, now..... --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:16, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My 8-year-old grandnephew knows how to delete cookies - do you really think that idea works for any half-way intelligent computer knowledgable kid? (I submit that a kid on the Internet is likely to now a bit about how cookies work) <g> Collect (talk) 13:26, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My assumption is that a cookie set for a logged-in user would not be applied to the logged out (or not logged in) user on the same computer, any more than it would be applied to a different logged-in user on the same computer who has not set a preference. This is one of the many reasons that I have proposed that the filters be on by default. Another design question that should be posed to the end user. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:28, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Filters on by default? You'll have to deprecate WP:NOTCENSORED first, and I wish you all the luck in the world accomplishing that. Resolute 13:45, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I asked on the talk page, when did personal preference become synonymous with censorship? If you want to see the images, just turn off the filter. Nothing is being censored. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:49, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hiding the images by default is censorship. If you want to hide images that suit your personal views, you can turn on the filter. Don't shove your personal preferences down my throat by default. Resolute 14:57, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Have you read anything about the filter? It is an opt-in image filter. No images are going to be hidden "by default". Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In my experience, every other major website that hides potentially offensive content does so by default. While you will probably feel that they are shoving things down your throat also, this is the common model. In the case of the Wikipedia image filter, someone has to take action either to turn on or turn off the filter. One could argue that you want to shove your personal preferences down other's throats be making them opt-in to an image filter. I don't find that kind of language or argument helpful. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Delicious carbuncle. Every system has a default. Whatever the default is set to, it will be arguably "shoving someone's personal preferences down other people's throat". Reso's argument is incoherent and inflammatory.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:49, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Ryan, I know that the proposal is opt-in. I was responding to DC's suggestion to make it opt-out. DC - What other sites do is irrelevant. Wikipedia's own content disclaimers warn you that you may be offended by what you see here. If you wish to change that, you either need to take responsibility for yourself, or find a way to convince the community to hide what you find objectionable. The latter has about a snowball's chance in hell of passing, so I would recommend you consider the former. Resolute 17:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolute, although I occasionally think that some images are used inappropriately here, I am fairly hard to offend and have never been offended by an image I've seen on Wikipedia. I have not decreed that image filters will be implemented - the WMF has. I have not decided that the users will have the ability to block images they find objectionable - the WMF has. Given that those images filters are going to implemented, I believe that they should be on by default. Not for my benefit, but for the benefit of those who are likely to want them. What other high-profile sites do should be viewed as "best practice". Being dismissive is not helpful. 17:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Delicious carbuncle (talk • contribs)
Sorry Resolute, I missed that portion of his comment. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe that the primary purpose of the filter will be as a parental control tool either. Even if it is, I think kids have better sites than Wikipedia to go to see the "juicy bits". Ryan Vesey Review me! 13:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the notion that we should have a massive community engagement before product design has been proven to not work well at all. We in the community need to give the software developers the moral permission to innovate with a more traditional and successful free software model of "Release early, release often". The bureaucratic process of holding massive community referendums to decide how software will work that is not even in existence isn't very helpful. At the same time, this referendum is, as Ryan says above, precisely about getting a sense of how people weight various issues, so I don't mind it so much.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply, Jimbo, but I tend to think the the process should drive the software design and not vice versa. I am not suggesting you ask the community how to implement the code, but they should be the ones designing the process. Leaving process issues until the software is written is not usually a recipe for success in software projects. Thanks anyway. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your statement about "freedom to innovate" makes it sound like the software developers are deciding what to work on as a matter of personal choice. Is that true? Because if so I can understand leaving them to volunteer what work they wish, but if someone is telling them what to do then I want them to be told to put this on a far back burner and instead develop a way to search the article history to find out who in the last two years took out the source I added, or who added a particular sentence. Also a better diff filter that highlights moved but otherwise unchanged text in a different color. Wnt (talk) 14:54, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree with you, Jimmy, were that proposed feature not so fundamentally opposed to everything this project is about. It's not clear to me that there wouldn't be overwhelming consensus against that "feature" as opposed to the common cries of "a simple supermajority isn't consensus!!1!" — Coren (talk) 11:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Simply said: The worst piece of shit i have ever seen in my years contributing to Wikipedia. There is no way such a system could be neutral or objective. It's a burden on technical side, on user side and contributers side. It was decided without asking the communities. All they got left is to choose the method on how it should work, not if it should work. Many feel already betrayed by this method. At least we can throw cats around... Does or can it get any stupider? --Niabot (talk) 15:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Limit software discussions to avoid paralysis of analysis: A tactic sometimes used to avoid over-debating of features is to have a design competition, perhaps including several rough prototype software packages, and then people can choose the best design or suggest merging features of some. The prototypes can be very crude, or even just some proposed screen-designs rather than actual running software. If enough features are known, then a single prototype could be the basis for expansion, without a competition phase. That tactic allows developers to work faster, and allows more time to then work on other software features, such as there is/was a blame-tool that tediously searches into the various article revisions to find who to "blame" for adding a particular phrase to an article. -Wikid77 15:15, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not to "blame" people, but to be able to see the reason given in the edit summary, to know where (when) in the archives to look for any relevant discussion, to be able to contact the editor for more info about a paywalled/offline source, etc. Wnt (talk) 15:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delicious carbuncle has it right: Frankly, the people that the WMF should be asking for input are not the people who edit Wikipedia, but those who read Wikipedia, specifically those communities that are likely to make use of any such filtering system. In addition, I would remind everyone that Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, already insists on educational value for images. That means salacious or violent images with no redeeming social or educational value aren't allowed in the first place. Parental filters for only one source (Wikipedia) are absurd. If someone wants one for their children, they'll choose one which works on the entire web and fits their personal ideas of what's fit and what's not fit for viewing, as one size does NOT fit all. Religious filters (no pictures of Mohammed, for instance) vary by religion, and Wikipedia does not need to go there. Filters for those easily upset make me wonder why those people would search for (for example) a graphic sexual term in the first place. Summary: If an image is considered to be seriously problematical, then simply provide a link to it (where it presumably resides in Commons) with a note that it's problematical. Any user can then decide whether or not to follow it. Based on what the article or section is about, readers will already have a pretty good idea of what they're going to see if they click on the link. No opt-in/opt-out or setting of preferences is necessary. Quite frankly, this referendum sounds like a solution in search of a problem. Note: If the issue is that Google is not listing some Wikipedia pages because of their own image filters, then we should be told that upfront. 75.59.226.113 (talk) 16:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let software guys suggest solutions: After the programmers start considering several scenarios, then they begin to see what could be done. There are a few, somewhat complex issues; remember, many youngsters think the plural of "spelling test" is "spelling testes" and other typos cause trouble (mammoth, mammary, penal code, penile, whole, whore, plus slang: ho, hoe, beaver, etc.). There are many ways that an image search could go awry, and we've already discussed ways to substitute "modest nudes" (by conditional display) into artistic articles, such as a Salvador Dali gallery, where close-up nudes could be avoided by showing blurred or other modest images. Let the developers see what reasonable features could be provided. Meanwhile, it has been suggested that some talk-pages are more vulgar than pornography, and often, no child should be allowed to read WP:ANI debates, without adult supervision! -Wikid77 17:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "salacious or violent images with no redeeming social or educational value aren't allowed in the first place": I guess opinions differ as to whether the five images of tied-up women in Hogtie_bondage are salacious, or educational. --JN466 17:44, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Every image demonstrates a different hogtie. Together they show that there are different variations. But im wondering if someone searching for "Hogtie Bondage" would expect to see pink bunnies, green grass, a yello sun and some purple flowers? --Niabot (talk) 17:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wouldn't care if the opt-in/out filter blocked all images unless specifically asked to be shown. What I do hate is when a personally disturbing image pops up on my screen and my family, including an 8 year old, are in close proximity. I think it is a positive step in the right direction, I have voted, and as I said on my talk page, I think you should too. My76Strat (talk) 17:58, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • I already voted on this issue. You can guess that it was (0,0,10,0,?,?), because i think it is unacceptable to block knowledge. But let me ask you about your typical usage of Wikipedia if you randomly stumble upon such "offensive" content? If you are an admin you will need to watch at many different pages then you could set up this filter for the meantime. No need for permanent blocking of such content for everyone. --Niabot (talk) 18:11, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • "permanent blocking of such content for everyone"? I'm not sure if clarification is needed or if you're referring to stronger suggestions above than the PIF actually establishes, but I'll just note in case it's not clear that this is a personal opt-in filter that individuals set up for themselves and can override at will on individual images or overall. If I choose to adopt a filter (I will not, though I support the option), I am not blocking content for anyone else but me, and there's nothing permanent about it. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are you suggesting that similar images would be appropriate in the Knot article, because they depict different knots. If so, it is one more reason for the filter. My76Strat (talk) 18:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • There are many different examples and illustrations for knots. I would not have any problem to find such an image as an "example for practical" use, if it's not the only one in this section. But since this is not main usage of knots i would not include it inside the article "knot", because there are tasks/depictions of higher importance for the topic. The other way around i wouldn't replace one of the images inside "hogtie bondage" with a generic example of a knot that fails the subject. It's only natural where to expect things and where not. BTW: No one suggested to include one of the images in knot. You must have wild ideas, my friend. ;-) --Niabot (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO I'd say Lilith as illustrated offers a much more appealing variant on this motif, and it's true that any child with the name might type it in. But it's also true that such outstanding artwork really shouldn't be shuttered. We only make such concessions to such poor unfortunates as believe in offense by image as are necessary to permit them to enjoy our encyclopedia to the extent they are able. As such, I voted against this not because I want to make all image hiding in all forms impossible - I am merely unwilling to support any idea that requires people here to decide which images are or are not in a category of potentially offensive content. Wnt (talk) 19:40, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unless this has already been put up for a vote before, is there any reason why you're not polling for the preference between opt-in vs. opt-out for un-logged-in readers? Since it seems relatively simple to change the preferences using cookie tracking, this seems at least worth consideration (and far more likely to actually address the issue). --SB_Johnny | talk 21:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you but I didn't have anything to do with the referendum.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Go vote already

Seriously, go vote!. By the way, was there some sort of watchlist notice that I missed for this vote? I had to go search out a link to vote myself and it really shouldn't be that difficult to do so. SilverserenC 21:56, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a site notice, but it doesn't render very well on my browser as configured, perhaps your as well. My76Strat (talk) 21:58, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Voting on what? The vote only contains the choice between one evil thing and another evil thing. What about all the people that don't like this filtering at all. How are they supposed to be voting? Rolling some dice, don't vote at all, vote as confusing as it can get? --Niabot (talk) 00:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fairly certain that voting all 0's and then writing in the comment section that you oppose any use of this filter (like I did) would count as opposing it. SilverserenC 01:59, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You can vote 0 on whether this is important to do, and 10 on the questions how easy it should be to disable. Of course any money spent on this should rather go into educating board members about how a censorship infrastructure is antithetical to the Foundation's mission. —Kusma (t·c) 02:30, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely agree with that. SilverserenC 02:33, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree in principle, but it is a straw man argument because censorship is not what this is about. It is about choices, that can allow me to be different than you. My76Strat (talk) 02:37, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing against you choosing not to see certain pictures. I think that the Wikimedia Foundation should not be providing tools for you to do that, as these tools can be used also for censorship. Third parties might supply what you need without endangering the WMF's mission. —Kusma (t·c) 02:56, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WMF should be the primary responder in assisting with the tools. It shows that they value even my position. And it's not some tremendous burden. My76Strat (talk) 02:59, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But who decides what your position is? Implementing a filter requires implementing a system to decide what is filtered. --Onorem♠Dil 04:04, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am fairly certain that the WMF people will be deciding what is filtered. The only thing we would be doing is placing images into categories. Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:13, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't at all answer the question. OK...WMF picks the filter, now who decides what category the image belongs in? --Onorem♠Dil 04:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Categories are maintained by the communities, just as they are now. In other words, us. :)
I see the word "censorship" being thrown around in this conversation at its various outlets an awful lot. Our article on censorship seems to take as central to the concept that control is being exerted by outside bodies. In this case, control is being offered to the individuals themselves--who choose what categories (if any) to exclude and who, like all of us, are capable of shaping the development of the categories. Even self-censorship doesn't seem to include the idea that censorship involves choosing what you do not want to view yourself. Don't most of us do this in some form or another, more or less constantly? My local bookstore is kind enough to categorize their content. I choose what sections I want to go to. I choose not to go to the sections where they house magazines with naked people, and I know that (unless some customer has been naughty) I will not find them tucked in next to Harry Potter. I'm happy; the people who want to peruse the naked magazines are happy. We all have personal choice and free will. (Of course, somebody could argue that clumping those magazines in one section, as they do, stigmatizes them, ghettoizes them and is one step away from banning them altogether. And yet, they've been there for decades.)
When I decided to save the article shock art from speedy deletion in 2007, I saw lots of stuff on the web that I wish I could have unseen. I knew the risks, took them, and forged ahead for the sake of saving the article--but I'm also not really comfortable, say, with torturing animals for the artistic enlightenment of others. Due to copyright and issues of reliable sourcing, our article is pretty innocuous. :) But say there weren't copyright concerns (and more reliable sources utilized the term). It wouldn't be censorship to put images in that article which readers could choose to see, or not, based on their categories and descriptions. It's one thing to read about it, something else to look at it. The article does not lose all educational value because the images must be clicked to be viewed. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Should they also value the position of the Chinese government? —Kusma (t·c) 06:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, put it this way: if Wikipedia goes out of its way to respect the position of someone who doesn't want to look at topless women because they're not "safe for work", should we express contempt for Chinese people who don't want images of Tank Man coming up because it's not safe for them not getting hauled down to the police station and beaten? We should avoid such impossible decisions in the first place, by focusing on creating the content and leaving it to others to decide what to chop out for their own uses of it. Wnt (talk) 07:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, if this proposal is implemented, and a user chooses to do nothing about it at all -- doesn't opt in, doesn't opt out, but just ignores the whole whole thing -- it will not change how he/she views images at all. Is that correct? In other words, that hypothetical user would see exactly what he/she sees now, without having to click anything extra to see any image. Right? (I have already voted, but if the answer is not what I think it is, I guess I have to reconsider my vote.) Neutron (talk) 20:14, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your userpage

JIMBO WHY U VANDALISING :P May I ask why you have decided to reset your userpage? No need to answer, but you may if you want. LikeLakers2 (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's a big discussion further up the page. I'm on a campaign against anything and everything within Wikipedia which is both difficult and useless. I'm doing my part to make Wikipedia less frustrating for newcomers by cleaning up my own userpage. It will be less pretty now, but anyone who wants to help with it will find it easy to do so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I thought you had embraced the harej school of user page design: if you use anything other than text and a few pictures, you're a tool. hare j 22:10, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
:-) Something like that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:14, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it could be like WP:SANDBOX; it gets reset every so often. Perhaps we could reset it once per month? No objections to what you say, though, Jimbo Wales. I say that because I don't want to get blocked :P LikeLakers2 (talk) 22:18, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It could be the start of something good. I have returned over 75,000 bytes for more productive use. My76Strat (talk) 22:21, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I assume there will be a lot of editors leaning towards simplification now. Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:29, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo garners a lot of respect, and when he chooses to lead, I am inclined to follow. I do wish there was more in the way of leadership. My76Strat (talk) 22:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You should keep your committed identity box though folks--Jac16888 Talk 22:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to see it happen, at last. Less is more. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:35, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't mind, Jimbo, I re-added the "You may edit this page!" thing from before, to let users know they may freely edit this page, so long as it isn't vandalism or some other rule breaker. Mainly, the page doesn't exactly feel as good without it. I did mark down what the {{/Editnotice}} thing at the bottom of the page was for, so don't worry. (Of course, you may revert this if you do not want this.) LikeLakers2 (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's a template, LikeLakers, which he said he didn't want. Only saying. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:50, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know. It seems to make the page look nicer is all. If he doesn't want it there, he can remove it himself OR let me know. I am nice like that. Besides, its not exactly a Jimbo Wales-type userpage to me unless there is something like that there. (to me, at least) LikeLakers2 (talk) 01:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, I dunno... I see a {{nowrap|{{NonSpamEmail|jwales|wikia.com}}}} in there. I think someone has already strayed from the straight and narrow of Wiki-Wahhabism. ;) Wnt (talk) 07:39, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I guess this makes me a Wiki-Infidel, cause they'll have to pry my divs out of my cold dead hands :) No that I do not see the point. --Cerejota (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I created my userpage on my 5th edit, and apart from removing vandalism a few times it hasn't been touched since. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:46, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Admirable move Jimbo. I've done my first stab at joining you on this one. ;) Steven Walling • talk 21:26, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

re:WikiHug

Followup attempt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_76#WikiHug


Dear Mr Wales,


I apologize for the delay and appreciate the patience you've given. Xyrem worked. I am more "well rested" than i can ever remember, ready to try again, and coincidentally in urgent need of exactly what "wikihug.org" will provide others with. So the medical complication I am currently panicking over can at least have value functioning as illumination for you. I have confidence that i will be able to successfully communicate it this time. May i contact you?


Sincerely,
Aaron Remington Kasey Bale-Grasch
Narcoleptic Inventor of NeuroSync
owner@AaronBale.com

--ARKBG1 (talk) 10:43, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In case you haven't heard about it, we do have a Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science where you can ask questions to a more scientifically inclined audience. We can't offer medical diagnosis or treatment recommendations for specific cases, but we could give general information about Xyrem, gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid, narcolepsy, and perhaps some of the side effects if you describe them further. I'd encourage you to consider asking there. Besides, I wouldn't mind going a bit off-topic and trying to figure out how a popular drug banned in the 90s is patented until 2024. Wnt (talk) 20:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
jimbos proclivity towards science isnt needed. there are few people on earth that can revolutionize the concept of an "encyclopedia" in just a profoudly delicate and self sustaining way. long story short: i lost a decade (at least) unecessarily. Altho i have been studying "support groups" since diagnosis at age 19, and will continue towards revolutionizing them, no one can provide the scoped perspective of jimbo. i only need his foresight. revolutionizing the encycolpedic community is fundamentally opposite support groups in many ways, so im not expecting him to read the future perfectly, just praying. I believe that he could find a path more than anyone. --ARKBG1 (talk) 21:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
30 minutes ago, My fathers nurse/girlfriend just confirmed that he has all 5 Narcolepsy flags, and the underdocumented REM onset erections. official DSM diagnosis pending polysomnography, but i bet my life that i just caught another N. thats 3 so far that wouldnt have gotten help for decades. and ive done it with no help. if you dont want to save the wikihug project countless time and energy because of a valid reason fine, but if its because you dont think my lofty predictions are accurate, then give me one chance to convince you. what if im right and my project can save exponentially more lives than current reach allows. I only need 1 chance jim. --ARKBG1 (talk) 03:04, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

AWB

It would be really great if AWB included a phrase converting all instances of sadly / tragically passed away / died to "died". So unencyclopedic. There seems to be a school of thought that believes sadly or tragically goes with such words in order to make "good writing". I have tried but failed. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And of course the 2000+ instances of "untimely death" should be changed to simply "death" as well (apart from those cases where it is in a quote). Of course, in a sentence like "His untimely death is an irreparable loss to the nation and the mathematical community in Pakistan." (here), removing one word isn't sufficient to make things WP:NPOV. Fram (talk) 13:18, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Things like that are difficult to remove, even though we must do so, because it's probably perfectly true and probably written by someone close to him who feels a great loss. I recommend that as people do remove such things, the most respectful possible language and explanations are given, both in the edit summary and on the talk page. It's not good if such things are removed with "revert promotional fluff" or whatever people might be tempted to say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, well as discussed in early March here, India and Pakistan-related articles are filled with this; I've cleaned up after more than a few on NPP, and it does wear your patience down. A particularly amusing example I came across a few days ago is this; I've seen worse (many of these people seem to like WRITING IN ALL CAPS). But I do agree with the general sentiment; much of my very early wiki-career was spent removing the word "perished" from articles about people. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:44, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Remember, the earlier computers often used ALL CAPS, as in many road signs, and for years, people would press the <Caps lock> or <Shift-lock> key, when writing. Passports, visas, or travel documents sometimes require all-caps text (because the 26 letters are actually 52 upper/lower). It is another cultural issue to beware. There were computer tools which downcased pages of text, which are needed again in this century. -Wikid77 03:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beware censorship of cultural idioms: I am always trying to respect idiomatic expressions, in articles centered on certain cultures, so I would be reluctant to keep "sanitizing" phrases about deceased people in articles. One related case is the phrase "square brackets" (for "[ ]") which seems, to many Americans, to be a redundancy (with the extra word "square"), until considering that parentheses are often called "brackets" in some major cultures. Although "flat" can mean "apartment", note how Americans might read a phrase differently: "the singer's flat" (or perhaps sharp, off-key higher) or "the girl's flat" (-chested). Similarly, if an article stated, "The Java source code had more than 10 methods in each class" and someone rewrote that as "10 ways in each school course" then that would ruin the use of the Java terms "method" and "class". Also, when saying that a person was raised in a family with 6 brothers, expect people to note, "Crops are raised, children are reared". There are just too many cultural idioms (and technical idioms), and it might be better to let each article state the idioms appropriate for their culture. Otherwise, there is just more "anglo-morphing" of articles into the U.S. mid-western accent with the Chicago Manual of Style. English speakers from Swedish settlements understand "this here problem" and Italians should be able to write "Michelangelo he was an artist". I think it is good to leave more cultural idioms in articles. Things to ponder. -Wikid77 19:13, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree because English Wikipedia applies to many different English speaking cultures, not just American and British, yet most editors are American and British, meaning the cultural idioms that would predominate are those of Americans and British editors and we should counter systemic bias. Eliminating idiomatic English solves the issue of cultural difference, unless of course you are willing to defend idiomatic Indian English or idiomatic South African English. In addition, many cultural idioms are euphemisms, and we shouldn't be euphemistic as per WP:EUPHEMISM.--Cerejota (talk) 22:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Wikid's argument is helped by introducing into the mix idiomatic speech that is clearly inappropriate for formal writing. While the use of terms in a appropriate to the context of an article is fine (like "methods" and "class" in a Java programming context), using ungrammatical colloquial expressions like "Dick Cheney dun goofed" isn't. hare j 23:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. English Wikipedia is written in many different styles of primary English. Things that may be read by someone using English as a second language are meant for simple.wikipedia.org. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:23, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, well do a search for "is a beautiful village" and tell me how many of those articles you think were actually written by people whose first language is English. That's the theory, but it doesn't always work out that way. It's a surprisingly large problem; some are almost G1 bad. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:14, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It can be difficult when people write at a 12-year-old level of language, raising questions about the editor's age. But then how many Americans laugh when they read a singular they (such as, "One student failed their exam") or a plural group (such as, "The gang are dangerous"). It reminds me of the old joke about the area of a circle, pr2 (pi r-square), "No, pie are round, cornbread are square". When trying to force styles, someone might transform the Italian style, from, "Michelangelo he was an artist" into, "Michelangelo the artist was he" and I cannot say the 2nd form is preferable, although quite grammatical. There is a lot of work, still needed, to transform many articles about India into common western-style idioms, but maybe knowing more about "Indian English" and the cultural idioms would help somewhat. Meanwhile, the worst horror stories seem to be when people are "simplifying" the techno-jargon idioms in articles, where "source code" becomes "origin id" or perhaps "Java methods" become "ways to brew coffee" or such. That is also very annoying to the authors. -Wikid77 03:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Honestly, I think we're best off directing these people to their native language wiki. As I said in March, Tamil Wikipedia has something like 20,000+ articles, and Telugu/Sinhalese are probably around the same, and Hindi is about 50,000; they need the new editors more than we do at the moment. Furthermore, if they're writing in their native language they're probably producing higher quality material anyways, and there's not nearly as much cleanup involved. I don't necessarily object to people lacking complete fluency in English coming here to practice (I occasionally drop into ja.wiki to work on their Rush article; I'm still annoyed that they don't transliterate Neil Peart's name properly, but that's another discussion), but it's not usually a lack of high performance that I run into, it's a lack of even the most rudimentary basics. In short, I think everyone's editing experience would be significantly better if we did a better job at pointing people to the wiki in their native language. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:14, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to hear that you are a Rush fan and happy to hear about this example. As you are likely aware I'm on a campaign against some of the overuse of foreign character sets in English Wikipedia. One element of that is making sure people understand that it is perfectly ok for people in different languages to name things differently, and so using foreign character sets is generally a bad idea with only very rare exceptions. So if the Japanese are transliterating Neil Peart "wrongly" but in a way that fits WP:COMMONNAME there, then I'm actually happy about it. I'm just about as happy about マクドナルド (McDonald's, which if I reverse-transliterate, Japanese people say "makudonarudo" and many other similar examples. ニール・パート - "Niiru Paato" is fine with me. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I think about it, that actually does make sense. At least they're consistent with it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:23, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is it me...

Is it just me, or does your userpage just not feel like a Jimbo Wales userpage without the "You may edit this page!" thing on it? LikeLakers2 (talk) 17:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it was on there, but I just moved it to the top anyway.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your text-only user page is shaping up to be really good. It's suitable, given how bare-bones Wikipedia was when you "joined" it. (Speaking of which, I remember the first time I visited your user page. The picture was of you holding a beer bottle. I was not too impressed.) hare j 23:00, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was the brand of beer, wasn't it? If only it had been a hand-made artisan beer with new and unusual, yet complex, flavors. A beautiful label, suitable for reproducing in Commons. Made by a multicultural, multi-language team, all using Google Translate to communicate. Known and written about by connoiseurs worldwide. Then you would have found it appropriate and been impressed. ;-) 99.50.191.169 (talk) 12:53, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thats Jimbo in a {{nutshell}} for you. LikeLakers2 (talk) 23:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are the <span class="plainlinks"></span> tags banned too? LikeLakers2 (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

no easy complaint page,

Respected sir, there is no easy method to complain about actions by editors and their specific guidelines. kindly create the same Thanking you AneeshJoseph — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aneeshjoseph10912 (talk • contribs) 08:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are, depending on the nature of the issue. Indeed, if you don't know the right place to go, the WP:HELPDESK is the right start. They'll guide you to WQA (for minor things) ANI (for things that need admin attention) or DR (for dispute resolution) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 08:53, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks will try thatAneeshjoseph10912 (talk) 12:07, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Problems with how we communicate with new editors?

The above editor's eighth edit was to create an article about an Indian movie of uncertain notability. When a PROD tag was placed on their article, they removed it (as is permitted), but without an edit summary; User:Dave1185 reverted their removal as vandalism and proceeded to tell them on their talk page that their edit was "Illegal". Dave1185 also posted a giant picture of a rodent on the editor's talk page, telling them that it would eat them if they continued to forget to sign their posts.

When I politely pointed out to Dave1185 that, for people whose first language variant isn't British or American English, such humour, and statements implying law-breaking, might cause misunderstandings, he responded by blanking my comment with the edit summary "cleanups, isn't it obvious?"

What's my point here? Oh, yes. Encouraging more editors from the so-called "Global South" is sensible, but such editors don't always find it easy to deal with Wikipedia's existing practices. Suggesting that they - and their culture - are something that needs "cleaning up", doesn't make that any easier, and is the sort of viewpoint we should avoid any appearance of. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I find it strange that India is fourth on the GDP list, and yet some still consider them "Global South" due to population.
The comments were less than satisfactory though, can you point out where that editor attacked their culture? Chaosdruid (talk) 02:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think both users should be sanctioned to write a separate version of article "culture clash" (the social concept, not a rock band), and then told to merge the 2 versions of the article. In the end, at least Wikipedia would have an article explaining what a "culture clash" has meant, historically, plus 2 users ready to update the article. -Wikid77 04:39, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anders Behring Breivik image and Wikipedia is not censored

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Urgent_action_required_on_Anders_Behring_Breivik an editor literally said "One editor insists on restoring an image that glorifies Breivik. There is a consensus that this could lead to copycat killings".

Without getting into the merits or demerits of other arguments to include or not include the image, I think it is a seriously harmful thing to the project to say things like that, and it is actually an argument to deploy the filter ASAP, so we can say it is filtered and focus on other, better reasons for inclusion or exclusion, such as copy-vio or illustrative value.

I think it begs a reminder from you as to why WP:NOTCENSORED is such a long-standing view. Unless, of course, you have changed views, in which case I am all ears.--Cerejota (talk) 12:42, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My longstanding view is that WP:NOTCENSORED is the most abused notion on Wikipedia, invoked in cases where it has absolutely no relevance. I have said many times that sound editorial judgment has nothing to do with censorship. As I haven't seen the picture in question, I have no view on whether or not sound editorial judgment would argue for inclusion or exclusion. But I do think that an argument that it "glorifies" the man is a perfectly sensible type of argument to make, as our images should be neutral. I also think that a consideration of the wider impact of our work, including whether something might inspire copycat killings, is a perfectly valid thing to consider. We are not mindless automatons engaged in an amoral mechanistic enterprise to catalog sheer facts. We are writing an encyclopedia with a real human benevolent purpose.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that last comment is a fair comment on those of us arguing against such a consideration in this case - to put it another way; equally we are not scared children running from every possibly consequence of our actions (which is how you could classify the contrary view). In the context of the actual discussion Martin removed the image with a very breathy and emotional comment which belies the sort of rational consideration you are suggesting (and which I agree with). I think care needs to be taken over the idea of images which "glorify" too. I mean; it's not a good infobox image because in that place it could be view as intended to glorify him. On the other hand the image is commented on in RS's and has made the national media, and objectively says something critical about Breivik's view of himself. So pre-cluding the use purely on grounds it may glorify him is dubious; I argue it entirely depends on the context/placement. --Errant (chat!) 13:38, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I have no very strong opinion about this particular image. I just want to try to stop people from arguing for ignoring moral considerations, or the view that WP:NOTCENSORED is in any way relevant in cases like this. (It is almost never relevant, but cited frequently in a way that simply muddled otherwise useful debates.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, we should never ignore moral considerations. In this case - those arguing against the moral objection are not arguing we should ignore such things (although perhaps in retrospect my first comment on the matter was a little ambiguous on the matter) but that we should not be making our own value judgements on the impact of images. For example Martin is saying the image might have the potential to incite copycats - but this is a view that is not really supported in any real life evidence. I think our discussion is rational; Martin has a premise, I reject it, we really need evidence to progress further. But I disagree on the censorship issue - it is argued the image should be removed anyway, in the interim, on the basis of "worst case" situation. This is the part I object to most strongly as an attempt at censorship. --Errant (chat!) 14:03, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Anent Breivik -- he is being inserted into a great many articles with which he has minimal direct connection (COATRACK) including even Progress Party's Youth (Norway)! BLP is being rapidly torn asunder IMHO. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:11, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is a serious problem, and I see no way to address it other than a binding community RFC or arguing it on every. single. article. --Errant (chat!) 13:39, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This seems absolutely an article-by-article decision. I think that "coatrack" is a terrible term, "minimal direct connection" is a step in the right direction, but the real issue here is keeping the direction of the association straight. In other words, Breivik may be "about" the Progress Party Youth, but is the Progress Party Youth "about" Breivik? If you look them up nowadays, will you see discussions about what this man means for their principles? Will you see them speaking out to denounce his actions and distance themselves from him? If you see that kind of data, then he's relevant. That said, the format of starting a new heading "Notable members" and including only him is obviously creating a sense of bias - if you want a notable members section it's best to take a quick look and see who the most notable members are, probably some heavy-duty politicians for example. Wnt (talk) 17:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the response. I mostly agree, but there is a difference between the argument that it might be a "glorification" (a sensible, reasonable proposition - which can be questioned in equally sensible, reasonable ways) and another is to argue that it will lead to copycat killings, which I consider not to be sensible. Feel me?--Cerejota (talk) 13:24, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I fear that the facts are not on your side here, though. There is evidence that such images do lead to copycat killings, and that the media is often irresponsible in their portrayal of criminals. We can and should take that into account. Whether it's a sufficient argument in this case, I don't have a strong view. My point is that it's a perfectly sensible thing to discuss thoughtfully.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:48, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Got it, can't say I agree that there is evidence that images promote murder, but I can see your point with regards to our process, much appreciated.--Cerejota (talk) 13:56, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's very important for Wikipedia to avoid farming the readers - to avoid serving up one fact and not another with the intention of making the reader do this and not that. Such a manipulative perspective is contradictory with the idea of the sum of all human knowledge available to everyone. We should seek to be guileless and neutral, above all honest, faithfully passing on such knowledge as we can acquire. Wnt (talk) 17:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was the "editor who insists on restoring an image that glorifies Breivik". Martin Hogbin was the user who claimed "is a consensus that this could lead to copycat killings". He removed the image three times, I restored the page three times. Both of us where warned, and neither of us edited the page afterwards. Still, he decided it was neccesary to report me to the Administrator's Noticeboard. The result of this hysteria was me ending up blocked for 24 hours while he was still able to edit. I was thus the victim of his weird paranoia. I cannot say this is a very nice way to handle things. Polozooza (talk) 18:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This entire issue makes me feel like I am being portrayed as someone who "glorifies Breivik". Nothing is further from the truth. I was the one who restored vandalism, for crying out loud! Polozooza (talk) 18:22, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anders_Behring_Breivik&diff=445386145&oldid=445380462
  2. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anders_Behring_Breivik&diff=445509325&oldid=445508319
  3. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anders_Behring_Breivik&diff=445517285&oldid=445511644
  4. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anders_Behring_Breivik&diff=445519820&oldid=445519158
That's 4 in 21 hours, not 3. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:24, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the first one was the 17th, the other three the 18th. There were many hours between them. And we were talking about the "edit war" between Martin Hogbin and me. Which I would hardly call an edit war. Also: I was warned after I had already stopped editing the page. Only then was I blocked. Polozooza (talk) 18:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why the hell doesn't somebody just crop out his head??? Somebody please add File:Anders Behring Breivik in military uniform.jpg. Can anybody honestly say that crop of his head is suddenly going to propel thousands of young lads to go on a shooting spree. Stop being ridiculous and just add the crop if you can't take a gun.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:30, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I fully agree, Dr. Blofeld. But it wouldn't do any good since there is still a discussion on Commons going on - whether or not the image(s) are copyrighted and if they could be used. Only if those discussions reach a consensus and the articles are kept, a crop can be made. Polozooza (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If nobody can even take the top of his uniform then try File:Anders Behring Breivik.jpg LOL. But this is clearly ridiculous. Showing his face at least is not problematic. Maybe him pictured with a gun was a little too much for some but there's no excuse to remove a cropped image of him. Please add either of the crops of him and stop being silly.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Add it if you want, by all means. But they'll just remove it again and block you if you try to add it again. I know the drill. ;) Polozooza (talk) 18:56, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not permitted to, the article has been locked. Can anybody genuinely claim that wikipedia could possibly accept a moral responsibility for the safety of the world's population just for displaying File:Anders Behring Breivik in military uniform.jpg in an infobox? If somebody is going to copy him they would go much further than looking at how he looks in a wikipedia infobox for heaven's sake!! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that "we are not an an amoral mechanistic enterprise to catalog sheer facts. We are writing an encyclopedia with a real human benevolent purpose." But we need to have faith that cataloging the facts is indeed the way to that benevolent purpose. How can we provide so much information about so many things, then turn back at some last detail and say that will be harmful? Much less when based only on some statements of opinion originally directed at commercialized mass media with an unjust domination of the information market granted under government license, not the voluntary work of volunteer editors. I recognize that Breivik attempted to manipulate his image - first with the "conservative" Facebook image (deleted thanks to champion gamesmanship) which he used as a tool to avoid suspicion regarding his chemical purchases; then with his militaristic image, meant to inspire a certain sort of radical element. But if we print these images, carefully document the manipulations, get people to understand the broader context - that is the way to avoid violence and immunize the population against propaganda, including a handful of people at risk to follow on in such behavior. Wnt (talk) 20:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment' I would think a picture of him in a military uniform would be problematical because it could be seen as smearing the military and its members, perhaps reducing the public's trust in them, as opposed to glorifying him and encouraging any sort of copycat killings. If I were a member of the military there, I certainly would be appalled if such a photo were chosen over others. 99.50.191.169 (talk) 00:30, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously the photo caption should mention and link to what articles can be found about his kooky uniform and the various "decorations" he awarded himself. We should not seek to prevent the appropriate emotional reactions from the reader. Wnt (talk) 05:39, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Chill sections

Regarding the brevik shooter nutter - if you have time Jimbo, please give me your feedback on Talk:Anders_Behring_Breivik#The_Chill_Section as I wonder if this sort of thing could help calm donw conflicts and grudges before they begin. Or maybe I'm just too much of a peacenik

P.S. Were you a local in a past life? Am confused exactly what it is you did - press don't really understand exactly what it is traders do. Am a LIFFE local myself and I'm sure we could exchange war stories, my email (and more) is avaliable if you wish to keep it shtum Egg Centric 21:57, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

santorum again

I think you might get a chuckle out of [4] being suggested by a "new editor" with a total of 1 edit. And there are those who think there is no reason for ArbCom to have a general case on BLPs <g>. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:20, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify: A new name slur (for name "Rick") was added to the neologism article, in the lede section, as the entire 3rd paragraph, with pageviews=3100/day, viewed 130 times per hour. I submitted page for WP:Requests_for_page_protection#Current requests for protection. -Wikid77 12:20, revised 13:06, 20 August 2011
The Arbcom exists to resolve specific disputes. It isn't a fact-finding body or a legislature. It's up to the community to set BLP policy, not the ArbCom. We probably already have all the rules we need to deal with one-edit editors.   Will Beback  talk  07:11, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IIRC, you have iterated calls for the case to be closed. Charged another editor with something totally unrelated to BLPs, and then appear here as well claiming that the ArbCom is restricted to single disputes. The case exists. The earth still moves. And, Deo volente, Wikipedia will be protected from these "harmless" "one-edit editors" as well as those who virtually own articles by virtue of making massive numbers of edits on them, who miscite Wikipedia polices aimed at ensuring scrupulous editing of all articles with BLP connects etc. "Scruplelessness" must not be a way of life on Wikipedia BLPs. Cheers. Collect (talk) 07:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If there are specific disputes about BLPs which can't be solved otherwise then of course the ArbCom is the place to get them resolved. But there's no way that the ArbCom can investigate or solve all of the problems with the many thousands of BLPs as a "general case". As for the one-edit editor, you can request an ArbCom case if you think that's the best solution.   Will Beback  talk  07:55, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As everyone knows, no case against a one-edit editor will be taken. ArbCom did decide to take the current case, and I trust and expect it will be a fruitful endeavour. And I suggest some of the worst problems, found over and over in past cases, can be dealt with as I shall indicate in the Workshop phase. Cheers. Collect (talk) 08:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yet you pointed to that one-edit editor as an example of why the ArbCom should, well, what? What can they do which will address what the one-edit editor did?   Will Beback  talk  08:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo's talk page is not where the material will go. Cheers. And read some of RLS's poetry. Collect (talk) 08:35, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So what was the point of this posting?   Will Beback  talk  08:37, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Gosh, a new editor mentioned something Dan Savage said in a talk page post. Call ArbCom, call 911, call the National Guard, it's an invasion! Wnt (talk) 05:35, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IIRC, your position about BLPs is known. IIRC also, you have been told by others that they disagree with your position on BLPs. I disagree with your position. Cheers. Collect (talk) 07:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify: A new name slur (for name "Rick") was added to the neologism article, in the lede section, as the entire 3rd paragraph, with pageviews=3100/day, viewed 130 times per hour. -Wikid77 12:20, 20 August 2011
Is no one tempted to do the opposite and make a Jimbo a neologism for something that changes the world? (To savage a person's reputation is an old expression.) 99.50.191.169 (talk) 14:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

The Barnstar of Diligence
Without you, Wikipedia would not exist. Thanks, Jimbo! Migro Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (talk) 13:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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