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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Howardhugest (talk | contribs) at 21:51, 16 December 2012 (→‎Vague). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Membership Requirements

I am having great difficulty believing there are no child molesters in the Hells Angels. I have what I am certain is unimpeachable evidence to the contrary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.0.6 (talk) 15:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the article mentions if there are inuits in the Hells Angels, either. Why? There aren't reliable sources discussing it. tedder (talk) 16:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have missed the point of the question. However, I will question my source a bit more thoroughly and do more digging - as well as look at the "sources" requirements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.0.85 (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't say there are no child molesters in the Hells Angels. It says, "The full requirements to become a Hells Angel are the following: candidates must be male, have a valid driver's licence, have a working motorcycle and cannot be a child molester or have applied to become a police officer or prison guard." We have no way of knowing -- nobody can know -- with absolute certainty whether every Hells Angel ever always met these rules. We do know they have been infiltrated by law enforcement, so right off the bat we know they are not omniscient in enforcing their membership rules. On a lighter note, the "have a working motorcycle" rule, often more honor'd in the breach than the observance, is good fodder for some tales about the antics of these bikers.

Please be very certain you have high-quality, reliable sources before adding any criminal allegations to Wikipedia. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:36, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Even though there are citations for the claim the HAMC is an organized crime syndicate, shouldn't it be pointed out that HAMC has never been convicted under RICO? 67.127.240.250 (talk) 20:21, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Tim[reply]

Sure, if you have a good source saying that is a fact. But the US isn't the whole world. Other countries have determine that they are an organized crime group. And court judgements aren't the sole criterion anyway. Wikipedia determines things like this based on the consensus of reliable experts, and there is little credible argument against the Hells Angeles being criminal in nature. There are other outlaw motorcycle clubs where you could cast doubt on their criminality, but the Hells Angels are a slam dunk. Significant minority opinions are given due mention, but the lunatic fringe is ignored. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:53, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not only, but lso, the RICO trial was a flop.Acmthompson (talk) 12:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's currently a contradiction regarding race under this section. The beginning states "candidates must be a white male", while the end states "Contrary to popular opinion, the club was not established as a racially segregated organization[39][40] and consists of members from numerous ethnicities." Which is it? Both are sourced. 208.102.55.92 (talk) 15:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kind of hard to say. Source [39] is not available online, and source [40] is a scanned Ebony magazine from December 1966 - which on page 66 specifically states that "We don't have any Negro (being the focus of the magazine, that's what the question presumably specified) members because we don't know any who could make it." But come on - that source is nearly 50 years old. How valid is it anymore?
I would be tempted to remove the latter sentence as being unreliably sourced, unlike the former statement that a member needs to be a white male, as that's a far newer source. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not only that, but "must be a white male" and "we don't know any [Negroes] who could make it" are not even the same thing. The article should not be used as a source for that statement (although there's still good information in the article which can be used to support other claims about how the club operated at that time). Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:39, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The "must be a white male" is from a different source, which is why you can't find it in the Ebony magazine. Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

June 2011

Every time I put Dave Burgess and his conviction in the article, some one takes it out.
I have fully cited it to bikernews, so alleging lack of sources is a silly lie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See www.bikernews.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 16:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bikernews.net is an unreliable blog. Better to cite the original newspaper where Bikernews pirates their copyrighted text from. Since the case is still working it's way through the courts, what is the urgency? Wikipedia is not a news site. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:23, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since February 23, 2010, a 20-year-old female decoy of the Hells Angels is standing trial in Neumünster. She is accused having lured a Bandidos member in an ambush. The victim was killed with five shots.[114]

The guy wasn´t killed, every source I had a look into wrote that he was shot down but not killed. Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).http://www.abendblatt.de/region/norddeutschland/article1394375/Rockerkrieg-20-Jaehrige-vor-Gericht-in-Neumuenster.html 89.246.8.211 (talk) 12:01, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

89.246.8.211 seems to be contradicting himself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 16:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Or is just comparing words from an article, to his/her own...-- MelbourneStar☆ (talk to me) 13:07, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are quite right, MelbourneStar1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.38.1 (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

David Hartlaub murder update / Hells Angels MC

David Hartlaub was murdered because he was mistaken for Jim Best, a member of The Outlaws MC from Sandusky, Ohio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.8.1.12 (talk) 15:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This calls for proof. No doubt, the mistake and motive were mentioned at the trial of the three.

Criminal activities

Is it really necessary for this article to contain such a vast and detailed list of individual cases? I think a general overview, with representative examples, would be better. 86.176.208.18 (talk) 02:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

86.176.208.18 seems to have over-looked the fact that "vast" is a vague, comparative term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.127.78 (talk) 13:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with 213.120.127.78. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.37.43 (talk) 16:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(OP) With all due respect, I think that is a feeble objection to my point. 86.160.210.161 (talk) 14:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Famous/Well-known members

Could a section of famous/well-known members be added? Of the top of my head, I can think of David LaBrava (FX's Sons of Anarchy), but I'm sure there are others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.177.73 (talk) 09:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Connecticut "Nomads"

There is a Connecticut chapter known as the Nomads. It is often said that their "bar" is Ruby II (2) in Bridgeport, CT. I'm not certain if that is accurate or not. Their leader, Roger Mariani, apparently made national headlines when he was murdered on I-95. Not sure how I could put this, anyone interested in sharing is more than welcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twillisjr (talk • contribs) 19:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a story about Mariani in the "Hartford Courant". See a Google search. — Preceding unsigned comment added by New York Resident (talk • contribs) 13:35, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Punctuation

Does anybody know if there's an actual reason that their name doesn't use an apostrophe (Hells Angels instead of Hell's Angels), or is it just an incredibly pervasive example of poor punctuation?

MrBlonde267 (talk) 05:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

and the answer is: "Should the Hells in Hells Angels have an apostrophe, and be Hell's Angels? That would be true if there was only one Hell, but life & history has taught us that there are many versions and forms of Hell."source: http://www.hells-angels.com/?HA=faq in fact Sonny Barger in his auto-biography uses the apostrophe but states the it is only for writing/Acmthompson (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That does not explain the lack of apostrophe. If there was more than one Hell then it would be "Hells' Angels". More likely either usage was established by people who didn't know or care that there could/should be an apostrophe, or the apostrophe was deliberately omitted because it was thought to look fussy. 86.128.5.251 (talk) 02:54, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting/Deletion Errors

Can anyone with some experience please address the issues in the "Criminal Activities" section, specifically where there seems to be a mistaken deletion at the 'end' of the "Canada" section. I believe that text was mistakenly deleted, causing the Canada and (?Germany?) section to become messily merged under the "Canada" sub-header. This creates a section that is unreadable and confusing to the reader. Thank you.

I restored the info as well as I could. I think I may have removed one reference, but it was broken and incomprehensible. I left the cleanup tag in place for now, someone may want to check previous versions for the correct reference that was removed. The reference was in the 3rd paragraph under the "Lindsay and Bonnar trial" subheading under Canada. This seems to have started when a bot deleted 30k of text for some reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjseatter (talk • contribs) 06:54, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

age limit?

how old do you have to be in order to be in this group? --173.216.3.254 (talk) 22:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

nicknames

Regarding this edit. I understand why citations are asked for, though finding them may be a little harder. 81 is the simplest, it can be found on the HA web site and a few references to it here and there on the web. It's about as common as common knowledge can be in the biker world. The other two are a little harder. These may not be documented in what we'd think of as reliable sources. The terms are still used commonly however. In common biker parlance "HA" or just simply "Angels" is probably used more often than their actual name, though that might not be noted in the New York Times. At any rate, I'll leave it at that. If someone wishes to push the issue then so be it. – JBarta (talk) 20:46, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great. Feel free to cite the ones you can find, leave the {{cn}} there for the rest, or add a cn to each term. Nicknames tend to get added by personal knowledge and expand like crazy. Leaving it to sourced nicknames helps avoid this. tedder (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Added a reference to the HA web site for "81". Moved citation needed to "Red & White". Left "H.A." alone as it's pretty self-explanatory/obvious and unlikely to be pushed for a citation. – JBarta (talk) 21:17, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The HA FAQ mentions both "Red & White", "81" and what 81 means. I figured that was sufficient to remove the citation needed template. – JBarta (talk) 22:49, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This piece of news is very inportant and should be included with the Nevada hells angels this child porn transporter is the Nevada leader

Hell's Angel & Nevada brothel owner Dave Burgess convicted of child pornography PDF Print E-mail Saturday, 19 July 2008 Former brothel owner gets 15 years in child porn case Associated Press Las Vegas Review-Journal Jul. 19, 2008 http://www.lvrj.com/news/25644904.html CHEYENNE, Wyo.-- A former Nevada brothel owner has been sentenced to 15 years in federal prison for his conviction on two child pornography charges in Wyoming. David Burgess was sentenced Friday in U.S. District Court for possessing and transporting child pornography. U.S. District Judge Alan B. Johnson also sentenced the 55-year-old Hells Angel motorcycle club member to 10 years of supervision upon his release, lifetime registration as a sex offender and a fine of $20,000. Investigators found two hard drives containing thousands of images of child pornography in Burgess' motor home after a traffic stop last summer in western Wyoming. A jury convicted Burgess in April on both charges against him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Count Corrector (talk • contribs) 21:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See the paragraph entitled "June 2011" above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.18.43 (talk) 09:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is much more detail in the site http://www.agingrebel.com/1079 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.176.152 (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictions in history section

I took out a paragraph because of its obvious contradictions, e.g. Sadilek's designing or not and a reference to an unnamed person "confirming the history as being basically accurate" when the history they refer to is confused and contradicting (i.e. 'which history is true'). It is also unreferenced.

I don't know the subject, so can someone else make sense of it? I think more attention on their history, sociology and influence would be worthwhile, rather than just making the topic read like a police charge sheet, e.g. early politics and counter-culture associations, why they actually became famous and the establishment of the 1% scene.

Love them or hate them one has to accept they have been influential.

BTW, wasn't the smaller, original logo called the "bumble bee" death's head, here ... [23]? I cannot find a reference for it. --Bridge Boy (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

... Frank Sadilek, who designed the original death's head logo ...
In an interview in September 2011, with one of the original "thirteen", the above history is confirmed as basically accurate. The person interviewed is perhaps the only one of the original thirteen still living. The youngest member would be aged mid-seventies at this point, and they all engaged in a life of reckless behavior. The group fell apart and was reformed in the summer of 1955 with thirteen living members. This is the group that continues today. The number thirteen was considered inauspicious by those in attendance at the formation meeting, so another member, known as "Crazy" was installed posthumously. Crazy was killed in 1954 when he rode his motorcycle off of an unfinished elevated San Francisco freeway. Frank Sadilek was the president of the group, which was formed in 1955. His wife Leila was secretary. Both held these offices until they moved to Hawaii in 1961. The Death's Head emblem was not designed by Sadilek. The emblem on the original Frisco Angels jackets was a copy of Rocky's Berdoo Angels jacket. The emblem used on the membership cards, which was a very detailed pen and ink drawing, was done by a man who was known as "Sundown". His signature could be seen in very tiny letters in the originally printed membership cards. He was one of the habitués who hung out in the pool hall upstairs in the building on the north east corner of 7th and Market Streets in San Francisco, which for a time was the common meeting place, both before and after the formation of the 1955 group.

Spamming

The spamming for Taiwan was put in on 15/2/2011, by Moxy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by New York Resident (talk • contribs) 14:22, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Should disambiguation be added for the 303rd Bomb Group aka Hell's Angels - 303d Bombardment Group

The following page refers to the WWII 303rd Bomb Group known as the Hell's Angels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/303d_Bombardment_Group and http://www.303rdbg.com/ 24.8.38.20 (talk) 07:19, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vague

Talk about a moral panic is too vague to be included in an article like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.217.176 (talk) 13:22, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Karen Katz is behind the talk about a moral panic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.7.192.143 (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is also a mater of opinion, and if it is to be included an explanation is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Howardhugest (talk • contribs) 19:59, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to see that you decided to discuss (although you did delete the content again. Convention is that you leave the article as it was until consensus is reached. So what is vauge and opinionated about the statement? It seems quite clear to me. --Biker Biker (talk) 20:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to specifically say the source was criminologist Karen Katz, and that her assertions were specifically about the Hells Angels drug crimes in Canada. It is a well sourced opinion by a recognized expert in a reliable publication. There are numerous other sources who note that the reaction to biker crimes is out of proportion to their actual impact and frequency, and consider it a classic example of moral panic. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. It is biased, suggesting public reaction to well known crimes committed by the Hell's Angels are not just. The term "moral panic" is controversial in itself.

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