Talk:Caitlyn Jenner

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 100.2.244.59 (talk) at 17:14, 26 September 2015 (→‎Found Some Pics!: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

picture

Please see the FAQ
The following discussion has been closed by Inks.LWC. Please do not modify it.

Curious why you've chosen to redirect the page to Caitlyn Jenner, when someone is looking for Bruce Jenner, but have chosen to display a picture of BRUCE Jenner, instead of CAITLYN.74.114.236.45 (talk) 14:47, 26 August 2015 (UTC)Teri[reply]

Talk:Caitlyn_Jenner/FAQ --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 15:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@74.114.236.45: Bruce is now known as Caitlyn. Caitlyns surname is still Jenner. The picture is of Caitlyn before the name transition. Iady391 | Talk to me 16:50, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I do agree that the image should be removed to A) stop this trouble. And be out of respect of the LGBT communicate and Jenner. This is a picture of pre-Caitlyn Jenner. It's like adding the American flag with the thirteen stars the official image in the article Flag of the United States. It has been updated. I think we should remove this image until a more proper image is found at commons. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Look, at some point this main pic will probably need to be changed.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:54, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely; nearly every image has an expiration date. With what image do you propose replacing it? VQuakr (talk) 06:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing right now, but we must not let a FAQ rule our editing in the future. It has a place, but it is not policy or guideline. And....I object to the hatting of the discussion. WTF? Really?--Mark Miller (talk) 06:34, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you object? This is indeed a frequently asked question. The canned answer works just fine, until such time as it no longer is correct. No one is going to let the FAQ rule our editing. VQuakr (talk) 06:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Funny how people keep objecting to what I would regard as quite an ambiguous photo anyway, yet not the continued references to all the other stuff Caitlyn did as Bruce. If the former is objectionable, then how much worse must the latter be? (At least it's only this article they're targeting, I suppose. If they were at all consistent about these objections, they'd be removing every picture of a dead person from Wikipedia, too. Please, don't do that either.) --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 07:50, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Funny indeed, they make it sound like the 66 year old Jenner was a 'lady' for 90% of her life even though its barely 6 months..I wrote this on the day the change was made in regards to the page move from Bruce to Caitlyn and i'm saying it again, it will take a minimum of ONE YEAR to get Caitlyn Jenner a new image. Its not as easy as it sounds, and this troll since day one has been 'forcing' us to remove the picture of Bruce which we won't because if we allow trolls to get what they want, why bother editing wikipedia? When and if an image is found, it will be checked by licence reviewers and commons admins and then verified and then added to the article and the current picture will REMAIN, but be moved to a lower section which talks about the career and life of "Bruce" Jenner.till then, bear with us, be grateful i found him a High Quality picture to use on his article since the previous image of him walking down the street has been a copyright violation that remained undetected for nearly 4 years, we won't be making the same mistake......--Stemoc 16:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A new photo post-transition Nattybee89 (talk) 08:28, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouns and style

Would it be possible to at least clear some of the 'Jenners' in the part of her life as a woman? I get that it's to stay more gender neutral, but let's limit the repetitive use of her last name for the section that's anterior to the transition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itismegbin (talk • contribs) 02:05, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Transition main pic?

Please see the FAQ
The following discussion has been closed by Inks.LWC. Please do not modify it.

Wouldn't it better suit the article to include a photo post-transition? Nattybee89 (talk) 08:31, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're far from the first person to ask, but we just don't have a suitable image that meets Wikipedia's licensing criteria. (And to be honest, a photo from circa the 1976 Olympic Games might be better anyway... but we don't have a suitable one of those either.) --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 08:35, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Call me stupid but what are the licensing criteria? Nattybee89 (talk) 00:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can you read like litterally almost half of what is written above? It's been explained several times. (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2015

Change the id photo at the top to post transition Cait! 😊 108.9.205.206 (talk) 01:38, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Look at the section immediately above. or the FAQ. Cannolis (talk) 04:23, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Different person

I came here to look for info on the athlete Bruce Jenner - really weird to see what this page looks like. Bruce was a totally different person than Caitlyn, the two identities deserve separate, but linked pages, slamming it into one page looks seriously odd.

For example, look under Olympic career: "she ran a fast last lap" - really? That was Bruce running, not Caitlyn. He competed in the men's category. Re-writing history like that is absurd.

2601:CA:C201:74A0:F9B8:ACFA:A80A:A755 (talk) 13:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bruce & Caitlyn may have different identities, but they are the same person. Hence, a single article. Re: pronoun use, we are following MOS:IDENTITY (bullet #2) guidelines. Barte (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is a clear lack of differentiation in the Caitlyn/Bruce dichotomy here, that much is certain. Whilst the guidelines for identity are followed very much to a tee here, there is a clear excess of representation of the post-transition part of Jenner's life. In other words, most of the article focuses on Jenner's life as the Caitlyn identity, and very little representation of life as the Bruce identity is made.

It is understandable why people focus on this so heavily, but pre-transition Jenner is treated as if Jenner was always post-transition. Long before openly identifying, Bruce went along the strict vein of male categorization (A men's category athlete would clearly be a he at the time of participation), and the article does not reflect this. It seems as if Bruce never existed, and Wikipedia simply requires equal coverage of both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.132.187.0 (talk) 06:11, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

most of the article focuses on Jenner's life as the Caitlyn identity, and very little representation of life as the Bruce identity is made. That's demonstrably false. Look at the article, count the column inches, and see for yourself. Barte (talk) 15:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have A Heart

The world knows that Cait is a SHE now. Why is the article loaded with "Jenner" in places that SHE can easily fit in. Especially in places where the use of SHE would possibly offend the transphobes that read this article. It's disgusting and completely offensive to the entire LGBT community when something like THIS is on a wikipedia article:

"Jenner was the American champion in the men's decathlon event in 1974 and was featured on the cover of Track & Field News's August 1974 issue."

Are the transphobes that run this page ashamed to note that a SHE (Caitlyn) was the American champion in the men's decathlon? It's time the truth be revealed. Cait stands for honesty and truth - let's not HIDE anymore. Just change all those "Jenner"s in the article to SHE so that it can be clear that a PROUD WOMAN that was ALWAYS a WOMAN won those men events! Please have a heart for the entire LGBT community. Just think of how offensive it would be for a young trans-kid to come onto this article wanting to learn more about an icon in the trans-community in Cait and see that the authors of this page are hiding the fact that a WOMAN won the men's decathlon by not using the appropriate pronoun (SHE) but rather mask it with Cait's last name... shameful! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 09:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been carefully written to conform with MOS:IDENTITY, Wikipedia's guideline on gender identity. The reason "Jenner" is used in place of just "she" is (1) to avoid repetitiveness, which makes for a dull article comprised simply of "she did this, she did that" and (2) to avoid ambiguity – other women are mentioned in the article. It is standard to refer to all subjects of Wikipedia articles by their surname, not just transgender individuals. I can assure you that a concerted effort has been made to eliminate any language that could be perceived as transphobic. Also, I would suggest that in future you assume that other editors' contributions have been made with good intentions. IgnorantArmies (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Trolling
The following discussion has been closed by IgnorantArmies. Please do not modify it.

OK, honey, I'll play your game. Can you explain what's the difference between saying "Jenner did this, Jenner did that" to "She did this, she did that" especially when the use of "She" would come right after "Jenner" was used about 10 times. It seems extremely suspicious to me that the parts that mention Cait winning MEN's sports, "Jenner" is used when "SHE" would be more appropriate and better to avoid the repetition of "Jenner". It's almost as if *gasp* the transphobic writers are getting their way to create the ambiguity that you claim to be fighting against. It needs to be made clear that a 100% woman - since birth - won the men's decathlon. Hiding behind "Jenner" instead of saying SHE is extremely transphobic, ambiguous, and offensive. I've had to swallow the bitter pill that is the refusal to swap out Cait's profile picture with one of CAITLYN, but I will NOT succumb to this one. I demand that SHE be used when talking about Cait's win of the men's decathlon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.168.163 (talk) 19:36, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia doesn't (generally) work on the basis of anonymous demands. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 21:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well excuse me, sugar cakes, but you better back on up with that attitude! I mighty fine know how Wikipedia works and I know for a fact that it works the way that's best for the masses. The fact is that I am declaring a VOTE on SHE being used instead of "Jenner" in the sentence that I previously posted. Take that, little girl. Oh, and by the way it is my RIGHT as an American to do whatever I want wherever I want. Go look up the Bill of Rights on Wikipedia, thank you and lose nice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 05:12, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to be heartless, but it's really weird to read about a man breaking male Olympic records and see the pronoun "she." If you want to be neutral, then acknowledge that Jenner was a man in the Olympics. By retrograding the gender change, we not only write a less true article, but we patronize the gender identity. Isn't that more heartless? 130.22.184.1 (talk) 11:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That IS being heartless! What is the big deal with a pure breed 100% WOMAN winning the male Olympics? How is that weird? You stating that is heartless and offensive to the entire LGBTQ community! I demand an apology right now. Where are the Wikipedia moderators to deal with this bigotry? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.170.163 (talk) 23:04, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

130.22.184.1 (talk) 11:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC) Your post justifies EXACTLY why this article needs to have it made clear that a woman won the men's Olympics. Just because you a cisgendered white male feels 'weird' about seeing the pronoun SHE linked to the person who won the men's Olympics doesn't mean we have to cater to you. GET USED TO IT. This isn't the 1950's anymore. Stoop trying to hide and regress all the advancements in the LGBTQ community just because you feel uncomfortable! Be on the RIGHT side of history! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) [reply]


I'm not going to get into the politics of the discussion here, but as an aide in answering the question of whether Caitlyn's surname is overused in this article, I conducted an analysis. In the introduction to the Wikipedia article about Niels Bohr, he is referred to as "Bohr" 10 times and with third person male pronouns 10 times. In the introduction to the article on Caitlyn Jenner, she is referred to as "Jenner" 7 times and with third person female pronouns 6 times.

While a difference does exist in the claimed direction, the results are broadly very similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.51.118.246 (talk) 05:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply] 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.51.118.246 (talk) 05:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

^^ To this guy... alright, you want to wage war with the LGBTQ community then BRING IT ON SISTER! I used your own weapon against you, little girl. My whole issue was that conveniently in the OLYMPICS section there was a deliberate attempt to avoid saying "SHE" or "HER" when talking about Cait and the Olympics. Well, the results are in! "Jenner" is used 18 times in that section, while "SHE" is used ONCE and "HER" is NEVER used. That just SCREAMS a deliberate attempt by the cisgendered privileged white males that run this place to hide and disassociate Cait - WHO WAS ALWAYS A WOMAN - from winning the men's Olympics. All I ask for specifically is this sentence: "Jenner was the American champion in the men's decathlon event in 1974, and was featured on the cover of Track & Field News's August 1974 issue." be changed to: "SHE was the American champion in the men's decathlon event in 1974, and was featured on the cover of Track & Field News's August 1974 issue." And also sprinkle a few more "SHE"s and "HER"s in there to even it out. It's CLEAR that for the Olympics section, there was malicious intent to purposefully avoid female pronouns and use "Jenner" instead. Get with the times people, it ain't 1950 anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 06:59, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, don't go calling editors "transphobic" for not sharing your exact point of view (which isn't even the point of view shared by all trans people). Claiming that someone who disagrees with you is suffering from a pseudo-medical disorder is offensive, and claiming that edits not made from your point of view were made with "malicious intent" violates our Assume Good Faith guideline. Second, asking for the record books to be changed to indicate that a woman won those men's events is not something that Caitlyn has ever done, as far as I know, and probably isn't something she would strongly fight for as it would indicate that she was never qualified to enter those events in the first place. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

^ Well Mr. Typical Cisgendered White Protestant Straight Male Response... I didn't ask to change the record books. All I asked was for the article to say that SHE was the American champion. That doesn't state that Caitlyn was fully transitioned when she won. It does the following: 1) Eliminate the repetitive use of "Jenner". A rather rude editor yelled at me about the reason "Jenner" and "she"/"her" were interchanged was to eliminate a repetitive usage of either. The Olympics section is LOADED with only "Jenner". Yes, I believe that was intentional by the editors here because they don't want to write an article about Caitlyn winning the Olympics and associating the female pronouns with the Olympic win. The other sections in the article have an about even usage of Jenner/female pronouns, so why is it ONLY the Olympics section with the usgae of Jenner/female pronouns: 18:1? Misogynistic and transphobic much? 2) The article is just stating that SHE (the subject ie Caitlyn) was the American champion in the men's decathlon. That's not changing history because SHE really WAS the American champion in the men's decathlon! I find your attitude extremely offensive to me. You can be as bigoted as you want in your personal life, but this is WIKIPEDIA. It is a public forum. That means you need to be tolerant and accepting of others, and not be hostile and offensive. So... please, Wikipedia editors, can more female pronouns be used in the Olympics sections ESPECIALLY changing the sentences I mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 03:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you continue to use personal attacks every time you post and then accuse other editors, who have been nothing but rational and polite, of being hostile and offensive is making it seem like you are just trolling. I am not intolerant of anyone's gender identity or sexual orientation, but I have very little tolerance for people who think that insulting people and accusing everybody else of acting with malicious intent is the way to get what they want. If you wish to have a rational discussion about the content of the article, fine, but if you're just going to call people names then I think we're done here. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 05:10, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've done a bit of a copy-edit of the Olympic career section, including swapping a few instances of "Jenner" to "she" (or otherwise re-wording), especially where the usage of "Jenner" felt stilted or awkward. To the IP, what you wanted changed was quite reasonable, but it would have been accomplished a lot sooner if you had adopted a better tone. You're welcome to create an account so that you make edits to protected pages yourself, but Wikipedia is a collaboration, so you would be expected to interact more civilly with other editors. IgnorantArmies (talk) 05:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

^ You know, I thought you were on my side until you posted that lie. I checked the article and there are no changes. Thank you for raising my hopes that someone on here was not transphobic and not a bigot, but now it's been confirmed the otherwise. CVan another moderator deal with this situation please and make the appropriate changes that will make this article not a bigotry and hate motivated written article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 07:33, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've dragged this hoax out long enough. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 07:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I did make the changes, IP, but it appears another editor accidentally reverted it while making a different edit. I've restored it. IgnorantArmies (talk) 08:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hoax? Honey please, all I asked for is some changes in the Olympics section. The real hoax is you as a moderator didn't help me in anyway at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 08:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Correction: On behalf of the entire LGBTQ community, thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 121#MOS:IDENTITY clarification close

Drmies (talk · contribs) has closed Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 121#MOS:IDENTITY clarification. Here is Drmies' conclusion:

In conclusion: there is broad support for the application of proposal 1 to this article. This particular discussion does not support the broad and "retroactive" application of any "new" gender in the way suggested by WP:Gender identity. All of which helps us for this particular article but does little to solve the more general problem of how to properly describe a changing world. And it seems to me that this discussion does indicate we need to revisit the discussion in MOS:IDENTITY, since the support here for proposal 1 is really broad and suggests, more or less, the rejection of the formulation in MOS:IDENTITY. Do NOT read this as "MOS:IDENTITY is rejected"--it is a suggestion, and thus an incentive to have a broader conversation.

"This article" refers to Caitlyn Jenner. Best, Cunard (talk) 04:37, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to parse this out. Proposal 1 stated:

In articles outside of the biography itself, the timeframe of which only covers the period when the person self-identified as one gender, with a particular name, default to the historic name and gender.

But Drmies concludes that (per above):

...there is broad support for the application of proposal 1 to this article.

My read is that the decision for this article is to revert to Jenner's historical identity, e.g. "his", "him", "Bruce", for the period when Jenner self-identified as male, which would be up to the 20/20 interview. Anyone disagree? Barte (talk) 17:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that when talking about Jenner historically, especially for sports accomplishments, use "him/he". For the interview, I think that's a little less clear has Jenner was in the process of transitioning publicly... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:51, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The complete transition was clear in the Vanity Faire cover story, a work-in-progress with 20/20. Barte (talk) 17:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My read was that this article referred to 1976 Summer Olympics, not Caitlyn Jenner. The only option that would seem to apply to the Caitlyn Jenner article was Option 2, which was rejected, but rejection of that option, when combined with the consensus around option 1, indicates that the timeframe should be taken into account for some specific articles, but nothing in the close indicated to me that MOS:IDENTITY didn't still apply to the main biography. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:18, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps User:Drmies should clarify what they meant by "application of proposal 1 to this article". --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair point: I see now that this wasn't altogether clear. Hold on. Drmies (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's the 1976 article (and other articles outside of the biography proper), though the conversation that led to it took place on Talk:CJ. And Ahecht is correct that "proposal 1" logically can't really refer to the Jenner article, though the others do. And since, as you saw, I read the consensus somewhat narrowly (I think), I don't see sufficient ground for applying proposal 1 to, for instance, to the Jenner article up until the transition, for instance. However, one certainly senses that many of the "supports" for 1 would support that as well, a dual usage in the Jenner article, but since that was not the original question we can't decide that much based on the discussion--though we can surmise a thing or to. Strikes me as an excellent reason to have an RfC on the talk page to settle it. Ahecht and others, thank you for the question; Cunard, my apologies--I knew I was going to make a mistake somewhere, and this lack of clarification certainly counts as one. Drmies (talk) 23:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification, Drmies. Barte (talk) 23:54, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, Drmies (talk · contribs), for misunderstanding what "this article" referred to. Cunard (talk) 04:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Name and gender change paperwork filed today

{{Admin help}} If her gender and name has not been formally adjudicated yet why do we have to be so fearful about the fine points? What if it does not get approved by the authority having jurisdiction? She is only submitting the paperwork today, according to reliable news sources. Over in the Kendall Jenner there was a pending changes request to drop Bruce as her birth parent and change it to Caitlyn which I approved but somebody reverted it to say Bruce (now known as Caitlyn). I thought per the WP Arbitration Committee we are ordered to refer to her as she from the beginning of her life? In which case, Kendall was born to Kris and Caitlyn, not to Kris and Bruce. Decisions made regarding content on Caitlyn's page should apply to all the pages she is mentioned on. Oh, and that photo is hideous even for Bruce. I hope Caitlyn sends us some better ones. Checkingfax (talk) 05:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just wondering, why do you need admin help for this? {{Admin help}} is used only for issues that only administrators can resolve. I will put {{Help needed}} below. Epic Genius (talk) 01:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

adding the helpme tag in the middle of a discussion is not the proper use of the tag. Primefac (talk) 02:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, but it's the only place where it would even make sense in my comment. Epic Genius (talk) 02:05, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, to answer your question @Checkingfax, we should optimally refer to Jenner as she wants to be called; however, we should not unnecessarily confuse the reader as well. According to MOS:ID, Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in the article.
Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (she fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., she became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary).
So basically, if Jenner was a man when s/he fathered Kendall (and Kylie), the article should probably reflect that. So "Bruce (now Caitlyn)" is fine. Epic Genius (talk) 01:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Photos should face text

Is there a way to move the info box to the left so her infobox photo faces the text per MOS:IMAGES? Checkingfax (talk) 04:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While it is often preferable to place images of faces so that the face or eyes look toward the text, consistency between infoboxes is much more important, and there are virtually no article on the english wikipedia with infoboxes on the left. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 05:20, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox on the left or using image manipulation software to roate would be appropriate. Or moving the image down to the left side of the body text. This is about the harshest most glaring example on Wikipedia about how not to face an image. It is already a harsh image of Caitlyn which is exacerbated by its unpreferred orientation. Checkingfax (talk) 17:16, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Car crash details

In the personal life section, the following sentence appears to be inacurrate "Kim Howe, an animal rights activist and actress, was killed when Jenner's SUV ran into Howe's car which had just run into the back of another car". Howe's car was rear-ended by Jenner. However, it seems Howe never ran into any car before that (Footage of the accident, Accident Reconstruction , picture when Jenner's SUV hit Howe's car). You might also add that Jenner's SUV ran into a second car. Could someone with the ability to edit semi-protected article take care of this ? MaccouM (talk) 10:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the article, relying on the most recent LA Times report, which gives two accounts but nothing definitive on the record:

Initially, investigators said Howe rear-ended Steindorff’s Prius and then Jenner hit Howe’s Lexus. But Steindorff's attorney, Robert Simon, has said the crash unfolded differently. After hitting the Lexus, Jenner’s SUV continued traveling and slammed into Steindorff’s car, Simon said. A law enforcement source, not authorized to discuss the investigation, said the evidence supports that version of events.

My take is that until we have a definitive account of what happened, we should just say that accounts have varied. Barte (talk) 16:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification, Barte. MaccouM (talk) 17:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Change picture on page to Caitlyn NOT Bruce

I believe that Caitlyn has been female for long enough now for it to be easy to find a picture of her as a female. She is no longer 'Bruce' and has fully transitioned into life as a woman, Caitlyn. Therefore I think it would be fair and decent to change the picture on this page to one of Caitlyn and not Bruce. She has been a very brave individual and has been through an awful lot, let's show her the respect she deserves. 94.1.241.37 (talk) 11:33, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Please make your request for a new image to be uploaded to Files For Upload. Once the file has been properly uploaded, feel free to reactivate this request to have the new image used.
Please note that any picture you propose using must not be copyright, which excludes almost all images that you find on the internet, in magazines etc., and you will need proof that it is not copyright, just saying it is not copyright is not acceptable.
I agree a more recent picture would be useful, but AFAIK Jenner is being very careful about issuing/allowing pictures to be taken, so finding a copyright free image could be difficult. Arjayay (talk) 11:42, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I TOTALLY agree! It's clear that more and more people are trying to be heard that the profile picture is offensive and transphobic. Just ask Caitlyn for an image because this article is incredibly offensive! Caitlyn has been through too much to be insulted by Wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 07:11, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's a photo of Jenner aged 62. Adopting a new look at 65 does not make photos from three years previously, offensive. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 09:12, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If fans are offended, they can take their own advice and petition Jenner to release a non-copyrighted image (properly licensed for Wikipedia use) on the Commons for this article's use. This is an option for any person with a Wikipedia article, isn't it? Apparently it is the burden of those of us un-bothered by the image to ask Jenner for a new one, and not the burden of those who want it replaced? 64.228.91.102 (talk) 18:28, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with this. There's no assignment desk on Wikipedia. If you want a more recent picture of Jenner on this much-visited Wikipedia entry, petition her to release one. Barte (talk) 20:29, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're offended? Who cares. Many Muslims are offended by Wikipedia's use of artistic depictions of Muhammad, but Wikipedia is not censored to cater to those who take offense to things. The current image is of Jenner a few years ago, and you can't pretend that's not a fact. If you can find an appropriate recent image of Jenner, feel free to add it. Otherwise, stop whining about "being offended" because it will get you nowhere. Crumpled Fire (talk) 03:36, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, it is repulsive that the Wikipedia editors are laughing off the disgust of users just because they feel they are superior because they are cisgendered straight white males. Secondly, it is clear at how transphobic the aforementioned Wikipedia editors (who believe themselves to be gods, no less!) are because they refuse to even try to find an appropriate image and rather hold on to the image of a male Jenner as they cannot accept CAITLYN MARIE as a WOMAN, something that she ALWAYS WAS - YES EVEN WHEN SHE WON THE OLYMPICS! Thirdly, was it that hard to find a beautiful image of Caitlyn? Here you go: http://cdn3.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/675x380/2015/06/caitlyn_jenner_vf.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 05:52, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Subsection or anchor for collision

Would it be okay to have this? Where My Country Gone? makes multiple references to Jenner's driving (runs over a woman at start and end and people ignore and keep cheering) and being able to link directly to where it is discussed in the article would be helpful for considering the incident at the article's talk page.

I don't recall Stunning and Brave making reference to this but its strong focus on Jenner seems worth a mention. Maybe in an "influence on culture" section or "depictions in media" perhaps? 64.228.91.102 (talk) 18:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)][reply]

I agree that being the subject of parody on South Park is a notable measure of cultural currency. But in these two episodes, Jenner is at the edges of the stories, not the center. I'd prefer to see the latter before adding. Barte (talk) 16:59, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Stunning and Brave has Caitlyn Jenner at the center of the plot, complete with the title. The joke continues on the second episode, where she bookends the episode with her driving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 (talk) 00:15, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken. I've added a paragraph to the Gender Transition section. Barte (talk) 01:33, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Division of the coming out material, that it's in both the Personal life and Gender transition section

Since Mark Miller's division of this material (see Talk:Caitlyn Jenner/Archive 8#Having the Gender transition section as part of the Personal life section....again), there have been issues with the division. That is seen with this this, this, this, this and this edit. WP:Pinging Checkingfax and Nightscream, since these edits concern them and me. I started this section for more discussion of the current division setup. If editors feel that the current division setup is fine, we'll continue with that. And for why there is a division setup, do read enough of the "Having the Gender transition section as part of the Personal life section....again" discussion I linked to in this paragraph. Flyer22 (talk) 07:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Caitlyn Jenner is a long article to assimilate and can be a Vulcan mind meld. Readers that parachute in to the Personal life section are cut short on the full Gender transition topic.
The Gender transition subheading should be removed because it fools the mind. Checkingfax (talk) 07:36, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article is not that big, certainly not on the WP:SIZE scale or judging by the table of contents. If readers dive right into the Personal life section, they will see the Gender transition section soon after it. So one section leads nicely into the other, despite the fact that I see the division of the coming out material as unnecessary. Plus, readers can easily see the section titles from the table of contents. What I see as a problem is if readers dive right into the Gender transition section; if they do this without knowing of the coming out material covered in the Personal life section, they will have skipped the coming out material that's there. And if we remove the Gender transition heading, that would make it so that all of that content is a part of the Personal life section when it is more so a public life matter. As noted in the aforementioned discussion, my problem with having all of the gender transition material in the Personal life section is that the vast majority of it cannot simply be described as "personal life." That stated, we could validly combine all of the material into one section (with subsections remaining, of course) by putting it under the title Personal life and public image. Or something similar. Yes, Jenner's Olympic career was also a part of her public image, but that's covered higher up in the article, and her Olympic fame is not what her public image mostly concerns these days. Flyer22 (talk) 08:37, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would have suggested Personal life and media attention as the heading, but the Olympic and Post-Olympic aspects of the article are also "media attention." Flyer22 (talk) 08:43, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about the gender transition being very much a public thing. My proposed solution is that the last two paragraphs of the "Personal life" section as it currently stands be moved into the "Gender transition" section, and then the rest of the "Personal life" section be moved down to appear after the "Gender transition" section. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 08:50, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I wasted your time Flyer22. My bad. Strike what I said and reverse it. What I meant to type was that if somebody parachutes in to the Gender transition section or skims down to it they will miss the Gender transition paragraph in the Personal life section. They will also miss a helpful nugget of detail about the 20/20 interview as that is in the Personal life section too. Checkingfax (talk) 09:00, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think having the gender transition material divided between two sections makes the article very confusing to read through. I don't really get the reasoning behind the split. Section headings are about making an article that is clear, has a natural flow, and can easily be scanned and navigated. Ontological debates about whether gender transition (or a portion of it) is truly a subspecies of personal life are only marginally relevant.--Trystan (talk) 15:59, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cisgender is mainstream and germane

Cisgender is mainstream and germane. If cisgender was a neologism it would not qualify to have its own Wikipedia article. Cisgender is also in the Oxford Dictionary. It is not a MOS:NEO violation. I am rolling back. Cheers! Checkingfax (talk) 09:46, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Checkingfax is referring to this and this revert of mine. Checkingfax, cisgender is not mainstream; that it recently entered the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) (in June 2015) does not make it mainstream. It is indeed a neologism. And as made clear at WP:Neologism, some neologisms can have their own Wikipedia articles. Like I stated at Talk:Gender dysphoria, "since cisgender is a neologism, I do think that we should generally avoid that word on Wikipedia; this is per MOS:Neo and WP:Neo. [...] the general public has never heard of it; when we can use clearer language, but without offending transgender people, we should. [...] The average person doesn't know what it means, and, considering that I've used it in discussions when trying to educate people on transgender issues, only to have those people even more confused upon hearing it and many of them still not wanting to use it afterward, I definitely have experience with just how underused it is. As for its offensiveness, well, if you go by the current state of the Cisgender talk page, you will see some people calling the term cisgender offensive; some of them are likely WP:Trolling. And you can see from the Cisgender article, that use of the term is criticized in addition to being accepted. I'm not against ever using the term cisgender on Wikipedia; it's rather that I am more so for clearer language (layperson language) being used when it can be reasonably used. As someone who deals with anatomy Wikipedia articles, other medical and biological Wikipedia articles, WP:Technical, WP:Jargon and MOS:Neo are guidelines that I am often aware of. As another option, a person can also WP:Pipelink cisgender with clearer language."
I reverted you not only because the general public has never heard of the word, but because you used it in places where plain English should suffice, and because you went overboard with it. Flyer22 (talk) 10:01, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And yet you re-added the jargon. I don't know what you mean by "compromise", but I'm certain that a WP:RfC on this matter will result in all of those cisgender additions being removed. That is, if someone else doesn't revert you first. Flyer22 (talk) 10:24, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since it seems that Checkingfax has nothing else to state on this matter and is determined to include that word in multiple places within the article, I've started a WP:RfC on this matter below. I see no need to wait, given how Checkingfax has responded and considering that this is a highly viewed article. It's also the weekend, so editor participation is lower. I would hope that Checkingfax is not trying to promote greater usage of that word by thoroughly advertising it in this article. Also, for hopefully wider commentary, I will alert Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch, Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia is not a dictionary and Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) to this discussion since it concerns MOS:NEO and WP:Neo. Flyer22 (talk) 11:16, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Should all of the uses of cisgender be included in this article?

For those viewing this from the WP:RfC page, or arriving here via one of the talk page alerts, see the section immediately above this one for more detail. This edit shows the disputed content. One view is that "Cisgender is mainstream and germane. If cisgender was a neologism it would not qualify to have its own Wikipedia article. Cisgender is also in the Oxford Dictionary. It is not a MOS:NEO violation." The other view is that "cisgender is not mainstream; that it recently entered the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) (in June 2015) does not make it mainstream. It is indeed a neologism. And as made clear at WP:Neologism, some neologisms can have their own Wikipedia articles. [...] since cisgender is a neologism [...] the general public has never heard of [we should use clearer language when it can be reasonably used]."

So should all of the uses of cisgender be included in this article? If one or two of the uses are okay, then what are they? Or should those one or two used be placed elsewhere in the article? Flyer22 (talk) 11:16, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Neologism or not, widely understood or not, they don't add anything, do they? It's like editing Douglas Bader's entry to say "Bader was born bipedal on 21 February 1910...". --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 11:56, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I don't even think the term is being used correctly. Cisgender isn't a verb (at least not that I've seen), so it makes no sense to say someone was "born and cisgendered". I assume assigned male at birth is what is meant, but including that is just unnecessary. IgnorantArmies (talk) 14:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also agree. Until the term starts showing up in mainstream obituaries, I think it's a neologism for our purposes, and per above, an unnecessary stumbling block for readers. Barte (talk) 14:25, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. Since "cisgender" is a term that is complementary to "transgender", and since it is an as yet uncommonly used term, it is probably better to use it only if and when "transgender" is used. If worded correctly, then "cisgender" will be more easily understood in context by readers who have not yet heard the term. Also, since "transgender" may be used as the past participle "transgendered", the usage of "cisgendered", even though verb forms are not yet common, can be expected to eventually enter the vernacular. This term is "cutting edge" much like this encyclopedia is. Painius  14:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just FYI, "transgendered" is frowned upon. (Probably for no apparent reason, but hey). Edit: and it's not just the one person saying that, I've seen that opinion quite a few times. IgnorantArmies (talk) 15:36, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT/VOTE: I strongly urge that cisgendered be used frequently in this article. Caitlyn's article is mainly about education of the transgender community (her biggest claim to fame). So it is obvious that cisgender will be used in this article. It's amazing how the cisgender straight white males here that feel this is the 1950's will hide important terminology just to maintain their agenda. Wake up! It's 2015! Wikipedia is about education and research, and Cait's article is all about the trans-cause so I think it just makes sense to mention the word cisgender at least once (or is this against the Bible?) Please make this happen immediately! I am offended by how undetailed the article is without mentioning Cait's unfortunate cisgender status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 (talk) 16:29, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request for updated image of Ms. Jenner

The article would be enhanced by a current photo of Caitlyn in the infobox.

Thank you. Checkingfax (talk) 09:54, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Found Some Pics!

So I did a little search (no idea why the mods here didn't do it themselves since it's SO EASY) and I found some free to use pics of Cait! Here's a gorgeous image of her in something sporty: https://flic. kr/p/xPxWr7

And here's Cait in a classy gown: https://flic. kr/p/wpF5ai

Anyway, I think we should have the main profile pic as Cait in the mini-skirt because girlfriend is rocking that look! Then somewhere a little further in the article, we can put her in the classy gown. The most important thing is that we rid the article of that horrendous image of that disgusting MAN. Caitlyn is not a man and that picture is like this horrible reminder of the person that she never was! Offensive much!

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