User talk:Jimbo Wales

So what exactly is this page for?

Is this where I can post essays like the following:

Morlock Eat Eloi

There are two kinds of people in this world: those who put people into two categories and those who don't. I fall into the first category. That having been said, I will continue by stating that there are two kinds of Wikipedians; there are the Morlock and there are the Eloi.

As you probably know from the H. G. Wells story “The Time Machine”, the Morlock were the brutal, rough people who labored in the harsh underground conditions of a distant future for the purpose of supplying the Eloi. The recipients of the Morlock labor, the Eloi, on the other hand, were gentle, insipid folk who lived an easy, carefree life above ground in the sweet light of day, supported by the labor of the Morlock. Unfortunately for the Eloi, Morlock eat Eloi.

That having been said, I will explain that there are two kinds of Wikipedians: there are the Morlock and there are the Eloi. The Morlock of Wikipedia I characterize as rude, vain, arrogant, conceited, territorial, thick-skinned, tough, and very, very tenacious. The Eloi are, for the most part, the polar opposite with a touch of naiveté. Once again, unfortunately for the Eloi, Morlock eat Eloi. Slowly but surely, over the years, the Morlock have “eaten”, chased off, or discouraged the Eloi of Wikipedia and as a result the Morlock are over represented.

I've heard the lament that there are not enough women editors of Wikipedia. I'm sure that that's true and it would be unfortunate if such an important venue of knowledge and a possible shaper of the public's perspective on the truth should be dominated by a narrow group, to the exclusion of many others. But the focus on the lack of women editors is narrow. The problem is that women are a large part of the kinder, the gentler folk I've humorously described as Eloi, and women are a part of the group driven off of Wikipedia. Among the kinder, gentler people, driven away are are a wide variety of people with valuable skills and perspectives, many of whom happen to be women. I will reiterate, Morlock eat Eloi.

Years ago I read, on someone's personal page, a lament to the effect that the rougher people of Wikipedia were driving off a great many good people. I now appreciate what that person was saying and believe it to be true. On the other hand, it might be possible that my perspective is warped by early, nasty experiences. One of the Morlock, a person well known as irascible, aggressive, and tenacious, and with whom I had personally sparred, recently “retired.” He is gone and I remain; the fact of which gives me worry that I am among those I condemn. On the other hand, it just might be confirmation the happy truth that progress is made, one death at a time.

Just thought I'd ask Zedshort (talk) 15:36, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, that's a nice little essay, but it completely misconstrues the central idea that the Fabian socialist Wells was trying to convey, about the unpleasant ultimate reality to be expected under a social system in which a vapid elite extracts wealth from a repressed and oppressed working class. I suppose I should embrace the idea that there exists some sort of prettified but ultimately soulless friendly spacer elite extracting a pampered existence from the hard work of a rough-and-tumble producing class -- but I'm certainly not going to glorify such a state of affairs. Wells wasn't trying to endorse and salute the continuation of a pompous and idle ruling class, he was trying to warn of the dangers of failing to treat workers fairly. Advice to live by... Carrite (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Wow!! Much to munch on, but I think you missed the point. Zedshort (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I thought your essay was cute and did make a point about problems with bullying here, and I agree that women are probably less likely to tolerate it than men. I agree that is why we lose good editors and the editing environment has a disproportionate # of bullies. I do also agree with Carrite that the metaphor has some problems compared to what Wells had intended. The Eloi would be even bigger bullies than the Morlocks and eat the Morlocks if necessary as in Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

I have not noticed a tendency in me or others who are not bullies to become bullies, but quite the opposite: we become increasingly upset by the bullying and the inability to do anything about it. The bullies are able to use double-standards and are somehow immune from prosecution and have admins that back them up. Perhaps you have attained such a level, but if so, I hope you recognize that being able to wield power unfairly and not be held accountable is not good for anyone, including yourself. We should all be held to the same standards. And that is not what happens here: Some are able to get away with things routinely that those they disagree with would be severely punished by them for doing only once. That is why I am a strong advocate for juries; The bullies will be exposed for what they are: The Emperor has No Clothes. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:09, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

No, I assure you that I am not a bully. I actually have never, even on the playground, been in a fight. Nor do I resort to sarcasm (a sign of an unbalanced mind) nor beat people with swarms of words nor quote a twisted and selected set of rules. Actually, I believe that the bullies will immediately resort to rule quoting (in a very selective manner) as a cudgel to get their narrow way. I have, however, become a more bold editor and will go to people's talk page and talk to them in a very direct manner. I find, when I do that, they back down. I am direct and to the point but keep it professional. I really hope I don't come across as rude, but in their minds it might appear that way. Actually, I don't quote the rules as I see that as a sign of a weak mind, and I have never resorted to an admin. as I believe them to be tainted. Some are able to get their way as they are politicians who know how to work a very convoluted system. Zedshort (talk) 14:14, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I will explain that there are two kinds of Wikipedians... Wikipedians are real people, and they are more complex than that. If you feel there are only two kinds, you need to get to know people better. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:16, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Do you seriously think that I don't know that people (individuals) are more complex than that? The problem is, when people join groups their behavior changes. One dog is lonely, but if it has you it is happy, if it has you and another dog it is really happy, if a third dog joins, you have the beginning of a wolf-pack and the personality of the group changes dramatically and for the worse. Zedshort (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't disagree that behavior changes in group settings (especially anonymous settings), and it's completely true that folks engage in behaviors that exclude and hurt other editors. But I don't see a lot of value in categorizing or describing editors in this manner, and it doesn't help me understand why things like editors leaving or that far fewer women participate here are happening. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 21:38, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

What I have written is an obvious exaggeration for the purpose of providing contrast and an attempt to explain the decrease of the number of editors and what I believe a concentration of the most aggressive, technical and male types. How could you not understand that aggressive, and territorial people chase off the more gentle and less territorial? That puzzles me. Call me a male chauvinist, but I do believe that women react to aggressive behavior in a very different manner than do men. I recall hearing an interview with a basketball coach, who after coaching men's teams went on to coach a women's team. He said that in the case of men, you could get into their faces and shout at them (actually needed to do so) to get them to listen to him and improve their performance. When he took the same tactic to a women's team, he found that the women did not respond so well to being shouted at, in fact they came unglued. He came to understand he could use more gentle tactics and just talk to them. Such a revelation! I worked for a woman in an engineering company, who found she got a better response from her team by lowering her voice an octave when she talked directly with them. It was rather humourous. Believe me, women editors are chased off along with a lot of good male editors by those rougher people, and as the process of correcting those Morlock is very shakey, the Morlock have essentially taken over. Inviting in more women editors will do no good unless the culture is changed. If you want a suggestion as to how to do that go to my talk page and read my proposal. Zedshort (talk) 22:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Right, so I think what we generally disagree on is the framing of these sets of observations, not whether these things happen or not. That women don't want to participate on Wikipedia is also distressing to me, and I agree that aggression pushes them away (and editors in general), and it's unacceptable. I agree that some men promote or spuriously justify this kind of behavior, and that's not OK either. If this metaphor helps you understand these behaviors, that's fine, but I don't find it helpful to start calling editors these names; they seem arbitrary, not compelling, and awkward. And that's not a criticism of you at all, or using metaphors generally, just me trying to be honest that this particular metaphor doesn't resonate with me at all. Furthermore, I am hesitant to presume that I know exactly what behavioral expectations women have in this project or in general. I don't know that they want to be treated "more gently." It seems more reasonable to say that editors, especially women and folks with other gender identities, shouldn't be harassed. The degree to which it happens is embarrassing. The culture does indeed need to change, and to do that, we need to agree about what kind of behavior is not acceptable (like the kinds you have described) and both encourage and enforce those expectations as a community in whatever areas we work in, and I believe this is possible because Wikipedia is not dominated by a narrow group of people who actively exclude others. We also need to promote and encourage productive editing and interactions as we observe them. In the end for me, it really comes down to the behavior and how we deal with it collectively. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 01:52, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

There isn't much to it. To make things go smoothly, just act in a polite and professional manner. I too find the lack of female editors to be disturbing and a sign of lack of health of the system. There is nothing I want more than to see a more diverse group of people represented in all walks of life and so too with WP. But acting in a polite manner is a matter of how you were raised and hence what you bring here. Acting in a professional manner requires a mixture of life experience and maturity of mind that typically comes with age. The body of editors may be too young and brassy to display that characteristic. Also, what you said here, "I believe this is possible because Wikipedia is not dominated by a narrow group of people who actively exclude others.", smacks of wishful thinking, perhaps there is a typo in that. As far as encouragement, giving a thumbs up on a good edit is nice, but I seldom use it. Perhaps we need a thumbs down button. I work solely by myself and really, really don't like groups; I love people, it's just humanity I can't stand. Zedshort (talk) 14:56, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

"I believe this is possible because Wikipedia is not dominated by a narrow group of people who actively exclude others.", smacks of wishful thinking, perhaps there is a typo in that. No typos. I speak from my experience working in many areas here, and especially with new editors. The problematic behavior is too frequent, but I reject that it is dominant. There is so much good happening in this project: The Teahouse, Editor of the Week, reforms to the RfA process, peer-review processes, edit-a-thons, thanks, and editors cordially working together in ordinary and yet important ways on talk pages, even on contentious topics. There are editors with the courage to face harassment and turn it into something productive. There is an editor from Cuba whose government makes it difficult to obtain Internet access and she has worked so hard and with other editors to contribute to this project because it is important to her. I helped out at an edit-a-thon here in Chicago this past weekend where 23 people, mostly women, edited Wikipedia for the first time and they had a positive experience. You're welcome to believe I am engaging in wishful thinking when I reject the notion that bad conduct rules the day here, but I don't think that is particularly fair to the great deal of good happening all the time. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 18:44, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Sounds like you are doing some very good work. Thank you! I agree with everything you said. In non-controversial topics, there is going to be less bullying for sure, so I agree that it is unfair to portray everything about the project as being like those areas where there is conflict. Part of what I find so valuable about Wikipedia is that it is not driven by a corporate agenda of distributing information with the sole purpose of making money or as part of propaganda. People for a while trusted it as an NPOV source as it is supposed to be. But I think the public has caught on that it is not always so NPOV--when professors told them it is too unreliable to be cited for university papers. (For example our drug articles often leave out negative information about medications [1].) Also, now the corporate interests have found ways to manipulate the information, and that is something that concerns me, which I fear will take away a lot of what has made Wikipedia so special and unique compared to traditional encyclopedias like Britannica or World Book. --David Tornheim (talk) 03:50, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

I think our WP:PAG standards elaborately explain (and have explained almost from the beginning) what proper behavior is and the standards are fairly well set out and that harassment in unacceptable. But they are not enforced evenly, because the justice system works more like a set of good ole boys networks. If you are part of one of the good ole boys' networks, you can do no wrong or maybe get slapped on the wrist. If you aren't, well, good luck, maybe you will get a nice admin. who is even handed, or maybe you'll be sent to the gallows, even if your accuser was the bigger problem and was harassing you. This is why I would like a jury system. The good ole boys would not be able to self-administer their own proceedings and stack the deck and use obfuscation and walls-of-text to hide the injustice. Instead, they would be just as accountable as anyone else. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:36, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

While admins. might be useful, since they are voted for they too might be drawn from the body of Morloc. I have failed in the past to vote on admins. as I really don't want to get sucked into politics but I'm sure that my mindset times 1000 will produce no good. The idea of a jury of ordinary editors to pass judgement on conflicts might work. But better still would be to add thousands of more eyes on WP. To that end I propose a change to the direction of WP that would draw in many people (probably older and female) that by shear force of numbers of their eyes would dampen the behavior of all but the most criminal of Morloc. A study of was done years ago wherein a subject was place in front of a mirror. They found that the subject's behavior became more moral. I think it was concluded that simply having the subject's eyes on himself imposed a sort of moral rule on that person. Having many more eyes looking at each and every one of us will improve our behavior. There is however a thing called a criminal, or perhaps should be called a psychopath, that cannot be corrected and must be shown the door. In the mean time, while we all find ourselves abused, the system must churn and churn to finally expel that individual. I am certain that such people stalk us here, and some may work in packs. Zedshort (talk) 14:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Have you looked at the data on number of editors? It was at its peak back in 2007and has declined almost every year since then. I haven't seen the data for page views. I think that has been going down too. But the # of articles always goes up, and the # of good ones go up with it. I don't think of voting for admins. as political, but perhaps it is. As for the jury, under my concept the bullies don't get very far--if all the other jurors vote unanimously they can kick a trouble-maker off. And the jury would need to have around 2/3 or 3/4 majority to make their decision--closer to the "consensus" idea we are supposed to be striving for. --David Tornheim (talk) 15:56, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Also, I imagine you will find that editor's behavior changes a lot as they gain experience. Editor A is not the same editor with the same outlook after they have been editing for five years vs. five months. Not only are there many different types of WikiFauna, with different interests and talents but also editors change over time. An editor who began focusing on content could move over to work on mediation and AFD discussions a year or two later. Some editors just work on the thankless task of reducing categories with backlogs that sometimes contain tens of thousands of articles/pages. While I think you make a good point that new editors shouldn't be chased away, I think that even with having a low percentage of women editors, there is a lot more diversity on Wikipedia than your model acknowledges. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Again what I have written is an obvious exaggeration for effect, but I am sure that it explains much. Zedshort (talk) 22:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm hungry. Where is the pompous and idle ruling class when I need them? Jytdog (talk) 02:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

@I JethroBT: You write "... shouldn't be harassed. The degree to which it happens is embarrassing", with a link to the 2015 harassment survey report. But we don't know the degree to which it happens, because the preliminary report counted zero answers (for the number of times respondents experienced each form of harassment) as cases of harassment as well. Because they didn't want to admit their mistake, those numbers weren't corrected in the revised report, they were removed, and meaningless "averages" were given instead. Averages based on unrealistic values given by a small number of respondents (for "hacking" and "revenge porn", it can be proven that at least 50% of the counted instances must come from people who reported having experienced 60 or more such separate incidents. Do you know a single editor whose WP account was hacked 60 times!?) The WMF still has the data and could give useful results if they wanted to: the number of respondents who reported 1 or more incidents, a figure that would be much less affected by inflated claims by some users (which were likely a result of the bad interface: having to use sliders with a range from 0 to 100). But they rather not admit to their embarrassing mistake. Prevalence 02:45, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Editors in sun are Eloi stalked by Morlock

At the core of the metaphor, many of the happy editors in the sunlight do not even realize, at first, how they are being bitterly watched, from the shadows (or the cesspool), by those trying to find reasons to attack. The new Eloi might become too vocal, imagining they are surrounded by eager, fun-loving college students hanging around with open minds or creative inspiration, only to learn how the Morlock dwell in darkness for many obsequious reasons, and "fun-loving" is not a typical trait amongst them. When the time is right, the happy Eloi will suffer and suffer, for imagining life could be so wonderful, exciting, and joyful; the wrath of the Morlock will soon enough extinguish the Eloi and their excessive, pleasant outlook. It is so easy to demoralize them, in a slow death spiral, revert and revert and revert, but not so fast that they would leave; no, instead just sideways insult and insult, then blocks, but later delete and delete and delete, block some more and topic ban, before yes, site ban to completely demoralize those happy Eloi who do not realize life is meant for continual insults, mindless pain, and endless suffering. Yes, that just about sums it up. ROFLMAO!! -Wikid77 (talk) 08:11, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I have the impression that your experience here on WP has been tainted and you have become a little bitter. I can very much relate to that. I hope to avoid carrying the analogy too far but from a higher level perhaps the we should look at this as predator vs prey behavior. The Eloy (prey) have been decimated and a monoculture of Morloc remain very much to the detriment of the project. There are fewer and fewer eyes with the result that the Morloc become emboldened and will push harder and harder. I suspect that the idea of a self governing system that does not become a monoculture over time is foolishly naive. Any system must have a body of rules to keep it functioning smoothly, but also be flexible to adapt to new situations and grow. If the direction of growth is imposed by a set of internal meta-rules, dictated from the the highest level of Wikimedia Board, they should be vague otherwise they would be stultifying, if the rules are imposed from the lowest level, they will be imposed by the most active/aggressive and become a cancer growing within, if the rules are imposed from without, they will come in the form of starvation of funds and perhaps by being ignored and treated as irrelevant. Alternatively, WP might be replaced by a wealthy person, starting another encyclopedia that does not have the flaws associated with self-governance built into it. Personally I hope for he latter. Afterall, all of the material of WP is free to be copied and used by anyone, and I will vote with my feet. Zedshort (talk) 13:41, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I freaking love this thread. Please keep it going...forever. 166.176.59.112 (talk) 09:10, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Zedshort's analogy has some validity. It's useful to keep coming up with descriptions of the bullying that goes on, or has gone on, and to discuss what can be done. (Is there any way Jimbo Wales and/or a group of dedicated editors could actually itemize many of the bullying cases, and apologize to the victims? I imagine a lot of departed victims would come back eventually to look up the messages to them, if a big project to make amends that way was done, and maybe it could actually really make a difference. That's my naive idea of the day.) Wikid77's extrapolation, apparently meant sarcastically(?) spells it out reasonably well in terms of customizing it better to the processes of Wikipedia. That describes the experience of a lot of new editors...what they experience in effect, whether or not the Morlocks are unified and alike, they have that effect, and, there really are, or have been, "wicked" editors acting in the way Wikid77 describes. Wikid77, is your username by any chance a reference to such behavior? --doncram 02:04, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

@Doncram:, my username is from "wiki"+"id" plus 77 as a short form of "777" versus Biblical "666" (the "mark of the beast"), and so the comparisons to word 'wicked' have been interesting. If people said some admins were "full of the devil" then I wouldn't argue otherwise. I still think enwiki needs term limits for admins, perhaps 3-year terms with re-RfA similar to the 1-year terms for Swedish Wikipedia admins after 2006, but something needs to be done to divide the admin workload among dozens of admins in each area, rather than a handful of admins making most decisions. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:00, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

It is certainly the case that at least two prominent Wikipedians spent the vast majority of their Wiki-career to date seeking, acquiring and using (some might say abusing) positions of power in the community - and very little effort on content - and would fit well with your definition of Morlocks. These type of fasces collectors are, however, not the only problem users with power. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:59, 12 March 2016 (UTC).

Disclosure of the full scope of the Knowledge Engine

All this seems to have fallen off the page. Jimmy, I for one remain hungry for a forthright disclosure of the scope of the knowledge engine and the shenanigans that went on around that. I am still hopeful you can pivot on your approach to this. Jytdog (talk) 02:50, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Could you explain, in detail, in what way you find the answers you got in User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 204#Where we left the discussion unacceptable?

"Focus on the deliverables. The grant document talks about a lot of things which are barely even ideas at this point - the deliverables are relatively precise, but what happens next is (deliberately) kept open-ended." --Jimbo Wales[2]

--Guy Macon (talk) 15:02, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree. I'm not sure what I'm being asked here. Jytdog, could you be more specific?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

After the events, it looks like all this Knowledge Engine was the required  just cause to provide some smoke screen in the factional battle against Lila Tretikov. Between [Template:Staff_and_contractors&oldid=103682] and now, the WMF staff has grown from 265 to 289, 65 names have disappeared, while 89 have appeared. Among the 200 that stayed, 120 have kept their job description. So that 80 have changed of job description. From something to Senior something, from Senior something to Director of something, etc. May be such an increase of seniority will help fixing the software problems. Pldx1 (talk) 19:00, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

"Many in the community were furious that details of such a large project had been withheld by an organization that prides itself on radical transparency. Wikimedia’s public story—that it was never working on a search engine—was directly contradicted by a grant proposal made to the Knight Foundation and leaked internal documents."

 —Jason Koebler, Vice[3]

Jimbo Wales, I understand you are willing to discuss the Knight Foundation grant and Knowledge Engine. One of the main issues is what were the events leading up to the Lila Tretikov's resignation and your involvement. The Knight Foundation grant was presented to the board members in September 2015, but Lila Tretikov and other board members initially refused to allow the full details of the grant to be shared with James Heilman. Jimbo Wales, did you tell Lila Tretikov to make the Knowledge Engine project completely transparent to the other board members or did you tell her not to share the full details of the grant and engine or did you not say anything specific to Lila Tretikov in September and October 2015 regarding the grant or search engine project. People want to know what really happened since the project and events are still shrouded in secrecy.

Jimbo Wales, the initial blogpost by Wes Moran and Lila Tretikov contradicted the original grant application leaked internal documents. The leaked internal documents states the "Knowledge Engine By Wikipedia will democratize the discovery of media, news and information—it will make the Internet's most relevant information more accessible and openly curated, and it will create an open data engine that's completely free of commercial interests. Our new site will be the Internet’s first transparent search engine, and the first one that carries the reputation of Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation." According to the leaked internal documents, the Knowledge Engine was originally intended to be a search engine on a new site and there is a concern that "Google, Yahoo, or another big commercial search engine could suddenly devote resources to a similar project, which could reduce the success of the project."[4] Jimbo Wales, did you tell or not tell Lila Tretikov to inform the Wikipedia community regarding the full details of the Knowledge Engine project? I am not sure what happened since Lila Tretikov never revealed all the grant documents. Jimbo Wales, was the Knowledge Engine project originally intended to be a much bigger project run on a new separate website, according to the leaked internal documents? Lila Tretikov never commented on the leaked internal documents as far as I know. For an organization that prides itself on transparency, I think it is odd that the WMF has not published an official statement regarding the original intention of the Knowledge Engine project and what is the current goal. If you did urge the board and/or the WMF towards full publication of the details of the grant and project how come the details and events have not been fully disclosed yet? User:Eloquence, the former Deputy Director of the WMF, is concerned about the current situation.[5] I hope you can clear up the confusion a bit. Thanks. QuackGuru (talk) 01:21, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

@QuackGuru: since you pinged me, just briefly interjecting: I was talking specifically about the deterioration of staff morale at that time, and the risk of literally losing people who keep the site running. That risk has been significantly mitigated since then, though the org is still in crisis mode and hopefully will enter a stable interim period soon.-Eloquence* 01:44, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

User:Eloquence, what or who do you think is the cause of the crisis situation at the WMF? According to Ariel Glenn of the WMF, it is "not just about an [Executive Director]."[6]. There is more to the story. What is happening at the WMF? QuackGuru (talk) 03:22, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

@QuackGuru: I can't speak for Ariel and I don't know everything that happened, but I know there was significant concern about how the Board handled the situation in November, about the James Heilman vote, and the Geshuri appointment. All of this coming together really hit people hard and significantly eroded trust in the Board. To their credit, Jimmy and Alice have since spent considerable time with staff, but I think more will likely need to happen, including better training for Board members, greater Board transparency, etc. Some of those conversations are ongoing on wikimedia-l and you're welcome to join them. Right now folks are waiting for the interim management responsibilities to be clarified.--Eloquence* 03:39, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

QuackGuru, in your comment above you presented as if it was an established fact that "Lila Tretikov and other board members initially refused to allow the full details of the grant to be shared with James Heilman", yet your link goes to an editorial opinion by James Heilman. We have already established that we are hearing two different and incompatible stories, one from James Heilman and another from Jimbo Wales and, it appears, the rest of the board. There are no verifiable facts that would allow you or I to make a ruling on which story is correct, so it comes down to who you believe. This has all been discussed at length before and doesn't need to be re-argued here. My point is that you just acted as if one of the two stories is an established fact. Contrast this with my comment below, where I clearly attribute Jimbo Wales' opinion to Jimbo Wales with a diff. Please do the same when you reference the opinions of individuals, and avoid presenting opinions as facts.

You also claim that "I think it is odd that the WMF has not published an official statement regarding the original intention of the Knowledge Engine project". This has been asked before and has been answered by board member Jimbo Wales:

"Focus on the deliverables. The grant document talks about a lot of things which are barely even ideas at this point - the deliverables are relatively precise, but what happens next is (deliberately) kept open-ended." --Jimbo Wales[7]

That is an answer, whether you are willing to accept the answer or not. The original intention of the Knowledge Engine project was (deliberately) kept open-ended, and various documents about the Knowledge Engine project talk about a lot of blue-sky things which were and still are are barely even ideas. Ignore them and focus on the deliverables. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:46, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Wikimedia’s User Experience Engineer Julien Girault stated "At some point, we start feeling shame about what we’re doing, which causes problems. 3 of our goals are about search. The Knight grant talks about a search engine, and some mock-ups look like google. There are legitimate reasons people might think we might be planning to create a google competitor."[8]

There is no clear message from the WMF what were the original plans and what are the current plans for the project.

Maybe you can also read the little blue quote box above for us. Thanks. QuackGuru (talk) 03:22, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

There is a clear message from the WMF about what the project is and was WM:FAQ. see also, Joint Press release with the Knight foundation. As for transparency and limitations, that it will necessarily be transparent, and have many limits, is the nature of creating open source freely licensed software, which is what is being worked on. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:48, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

QuackGuru, your "little blue quote box", along with your comments and the comments made by the VICE writer (which pretty much accuiratly report what you and others feel about this), all ask the WMF to do two completely incompatible things:

1. Be completely transparent, letting the Wikipedia community know every detail of any preliminary brainstorming, including bad or poorly-thought-out ideas. For example, if somebody floats the idea of a general-purpose search engine, report that. When everyone looks at that idea and shoots it down, report that.
2. Only present to the Wikipedia community finished, good, and well-thought-out plans. For example, if somebody floats the idea of a general-purpose search engine, keep that proposal secret. When everyone looks at that idea and shoots it down, act as if it never happened.

The WMF chose the second path, which I think was a mistake. But they made that choice in an environment where you and others do not seem to be willing to let them float bad ideas during the preliminary planning stages but instead insist on holding them responsible for every idea they reveal. So of course they try to keep the early brainstorming secret. Add to this the legitimate fear that pissing of even a small minority of the Wikipedia community can (and has recently) get a WMF staff member fired.

This is essentially a problem that we created. If we want transparency, we need to dial down the criticism of what gets revealed and accept the fact that many of the preliminary ideas and plans that get revealed are going to suck. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

A lot of effort has gone into into suppressing the above comment,[9][10][11][12][13] but responding to the arguments in the comment? Not so much. (sad trombone noise...) --Guy Macon (talk) 03:21, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Question for Jimbo Wales - in "Beta features" under our user Preferences, there's a feature that suggests related pages at the bottom of an article. There are currently 8,892 users trying it out. I think it's pretty remarkable and quite helpful. Is this feature somehow related to the concept of the Knowledge Engine? Atsme^📞📧 14:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

• Jimmy, thanks for replying above. There is a gaping hole, where I am looking for the story of what transpired over last year and a half or so, loosely centered on the KE (what was planned, by whom, the lack of transparency around that (within the WMF and with respect to the community), and how that played into James's dismissal and the ugly knot of stuff that happened leading to that, and Lila's ultimate failure to be an effective ED). All that stuff is one story - a series of events that happened in real time. What is that story? If you don't know it, you don't know it. If you have a piece of it, you have a piece of it. But your responses to my questions in our earlier discussion were empty - either high level to the point of having no information, or negating small points. Leaving a hole in the face of my questions. (Analogy: My question: "Where is the hardware store?" Your answers: "Well hardware stores are great, and we have one. It is a really great store when it has everything in stock - ladders and hammers and nails and whatnot, But boy it runs out of stuff a lot. I wish it were close to the bus station but it isn't". Me, thinking the first time: "ummm, where is the hardware store?" Me thinking after the fourth time: "OK, this guy has no intention of telling me where the hardware store is")

I know that you owe me nothing. You showed me that, very clearly. I keep hoping you will be actually transparent, and just out with it, instead of obfuscating. I know you did some ugly things that have not been made public yet, and you clearly made some mistakes. So what. Out with it. Right now, you are part of the problem. The longer you persist in obfuscating, the more irrelevant you become to making this place function better, and the more we just have to work make that happen without you. I am pretty much out of hope with regard to you, and am turning to other efforts, like getting the board elected, so we have people who are actually accountable on the board. But I'll keep asking, to give you the chance.

So, do you have information to provide - can you tell at least part of the story? (btw I would prefer that you don't reply at all, if you don't have actual information to provide.) Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:59, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Dog - You don't have to ask the same question for the 27th time. All you have to do is accept that Jimbo has given you an answer, whether or not you like the answer or not. It's time to stop beating a dead horse, back away and drop the stick. Yes, you are being obnoxious. See WP:Don't be intentionally obnoxious Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Bones. Jimmy is free to give me a nonanswer, but I do not have to accept a nonanswer. Jimmy asked me a question and I replied and you are inserting yourself again inappropriately. You are apparently unaware of the wider conversations going on about this, if you think I am the only one raising these issues. Jytdog (talk) 23:17, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Your question is (for the 27th time) "I am looking for the story of what transpired over last year and a half or so, loosely centered on the KE." You've had Jimbo's answer to that several times. At some point, well past, you should have understood that repeating yourself ad nauseam is obnoxious. Please stop being obnoxious. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:56, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog, if you wish to have a conversation with Jimbo without others doing what you call "inserting yourself inappropriately", send him an email. As long as you choose to make your comments here, anyone is allowed to respond as they see fit. You are correct that you do not have to accept what you consider to be a "nonanswer", but you are not allowed to ask it again and again after it becomes clear that it is the only answer that you are going to get. In my opinion, the answer was fine and that your refusal to accept it has nothing to do with it being a "nonanswer" and everything to do with it being a direct, clear answer that you don't like. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:18, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Jimmy asked me what I meant. I answered him, "in detail" as he requested. You too are butting in inappropriately. Jimmy is a big boy and doesn't need your protection. Jytdog (talk) 20:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:25, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

• I, and others, do look forward to hearing from you, Jimmy. Jytdog (talk) 01:11, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

What James said publicly

Hi Jimmy. According to this, you wrote to James that "I'm not going to dig up the exact quotes, you said publicly that you wrote to me in October that we were building a Google-competing search engine and that I more or less said that I'm fine with it". My emphasis. That said, do you have the exact quotes? I can't find anywhere where James said this. Thanks Peter Damian (talk) 18:05, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

---

You are suggesting James is either a liar, or has 'poor memory or low emotional intelligence', or that 'emotional trauma' has coloured his perceptions on certain details. This is a serious thing (and nasty) to say about a man whose integrity and honesty is so far not in doubt. I have searched for evidence of what you claim James said publicly, and I can find nothing. There is something I copied here, but the first reference to 'Google like search engine' is in fact yours. Then James suggested someone should verify that WMF has a group of staff that want to work on a Google-like search engine. 'Verify' /= 'claim'. So where, according to you, did James make this public statement? You can't say mean things like this without digging up the exact quotes. Peter Damian (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I've been getting some pings about this, which had to do with a statement of mine, so I think I should clarify: I made a comment suggesting a "Google-like" search engine based on this Signpost article and some other source which had mentioned an attempt to make a search engine at Bomis, which apparently predates February 15 when User:Jytdog referred to it. This was only my take on some unclear things I'd read. After which Jimbo responded that it was never intended to be Google-like, and James Heilman made a purely hypothetical response to a scenario I'd raised. The original quote by User:Doc James did not say "Google-like", but was persuasive, because it was a quote: he noted a February 11 document said that "Knowledge Engine by Wikipedia will be the Internet's first transparent search engine, and the first one originated by the Wikimedia Foundation", citing the document.

I think the main point here is that we all need to take a chill pill. Every person coming to this and seeing statements that are frustratingly vague is a) getting frustrated, and b) reading things into what is said that are not quite true. The statements are apparently vague on purpose - User:Wbm1058 suggested there is a reason for this shortly after the quote Doc James provided in the archived discussion, and in any case I still don't know what KE really is. If we can't solve that, at least we can try to resist getting quite so frustrated. This is all blind men and the elephant, and we should consider it most likely that each person involved is not lying, not crazy, just behaving in the way that makes the most sense based on what they know. Wnt (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

it would be nice if this were an "elephant" story but there are directly contradictory statements. Just in that thread you linked to, we have James saying here that "The board approved the Knight Foundation grant. I supported its approval following pressure which included comments about potentially removing members of the Board." And Jimmy said here that there were absolutely no such threats. These kinds of contradictions are not resolve-able with the "different parts of the elephant" hypothesis. Believe me, I tried. Jytdog (talk) 20:48, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Related: User talk:Doc James#What you said publicly. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Actually, in that link Jimbo said that if anyone on the board made such a threat he'd be astonished, and encouraged Doc James to specify who said what when. This is not really a direct contradiction until the two have narrowed it down to a solid disagreement about a specific conversation at a specific time. Wnt (talk) 03:29, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

from the dif: Absolutely not. The very idea is ridiculous. Based on everything that I have seen from the rest of the board, this is a complete impossibility. I am specifically checking with every board member to try to get some idea of what, if anything at all, this accusation could be based on, and I have so far come to a preliminary conclusion that it is a flat out lie. If I do find out that any board member made such a threat, I will be astonished. and it goes on. Jytdog (talk) 03:33, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Earlier today Guy Macon asked James: "...Doc James, when you say 'pressure which included comments about potentially removing members of the board' was this pressure applied in front of the entire board? Was it clear or ambiguous? Was Jimbo there? Does any other board member collaborate this claim?". James's reply: Yes Jimbo was there. And it was clear. I would imagine other board members would confirm this. (NB spelling error corrected "their" >> "there"). Jytdog (talk) 04:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

This is not an "elephants" story. That is a hope I had too. But it is not possible. Which is why I have been saying that for anybody who is paying attention, the contradictions are unbearable. And this is not the only example. Jytdog (talk) 04:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

From my perspective, the longer Jimmy keeps digging, the worse this is going to get for him, and for the movement. Which is the real tragedy. My hope is that he pivots, and hard. Jytdog (talk) 04:09, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog, if this is a he said, he said, you may never get to the bottom of it, but that does not mean you should stop seeking reality. I somehow don't see Jimbo pivoting...Southerners like to dig..:), and are beyond stubborn. Its entirely up to you, but if it was me and I could not let it go, I'd use the Thought experiment process to figure out what happened. That may work better than trying to "dig" relevant info from the combatants. Nocturnalnow (talk) 06:06, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I still want an answer to the question "Does any other board member corroborate this claim?" Doc James say that an unambiguous statement was made in front of the entire board including Jimbo Wales. Jimbo says it never happened. What do the eyewitnesses say? --Guy Macon (talk) 08:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Really? Answer A would mean board members were threatened and acquiesced. Answer B would mean it didn't happen. Acquiescence is not compatible with giving Answer A, and answer B would be silence as there is nothing to witness. I wouldn't expect any verbal/written answer but people tend to vote with their feet in cases like this. (p.s. I corrected a typo in your bolded area) --DHeyward (talk) 09:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Guy Macon that seeking info from other board members/eyewitnesses is the logical next step. One or more of them might feel an obligation to help those who are interested in getting to the bottom of what happened. There is nothing to lose by trying to get them to speak up or at least answer some questions. Even if they all clam up/stonewall, even that will provide an additional piece of reality for acceptance and/or possible reaction. Nocturnalnow (talk) 16:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

"Answer B would be silence as there is nothing to witness" doesn't make any sense. If someone claimed that Jimbo climbed the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man and that he did it right in front of me, my answer would not be be "silence as there is nothing to witness". My answer would be that I never saw it happen and that the claim that it happened right in front of me was false. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:34, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I Agree with Guy Macon re:Answer B. So one or more of the trustees need to help get the record straight. This matter seems too important to too many people to walk away from. If the trustees do not come forward, maybe a time deadline has to be set, then there are several other approaches I can think of at the moment; which have already been mentioned I think. The main thing I think is to try to get to the information in as non-judgmental way as possible. It may even be possible to get at the details without identifying the names of the individuals who did or said whatever. The first approach we could try is to bring in a professional counselor to speak to the parties separately, gather the details from all perspectives, boil down the events which the parties agree happened, come up with a description of the events which is agreeable to all parties and share that description, perhaps in confidence or perhaps not, with whomever wants to know the description of events. The sharing of the description might or might not be limited in some way, perhaps by email...I'm just thinking out loud here...or made public...these parameters could be set by the parties perhaps. Don't laugh, but I think an experienced family counselor might be able to work with the parties and help them sort this all out in a way that will bring a healthy, constructive and positive conclusion to this matter which all concerned, including the people talking here, will be happy with. Nocturnalnow (talk) 05:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog:

It looks like you are accusing Jimbo of something but not quite saying what it is. Your technique looks like a combination of tabloid journalism, McCarthyism, and schoolyard bullying. If you have an actual accusation to make, you should make it clearly, with evidence to back it up. Otherwise you should apologize. Please note that WP:No personal attacks says:

"Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks. ....

"What is considered to be a personal attack? ....

• "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki."

So I'm calling you on this. It's time to put up or shut up. Please take a few days to get your accusations and evidence in order and then present them so we can all see what you are talking about.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 06:43, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

You can choose however you like. Everyone has to deal with contradictions. They are right there, and turning the focus on me does nothing. Jytdog (talk) 08:30, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is all an argument about I-don't-know-what said I-don't-know-when by I-don't-know-who. If User:Doc James wants to explain exactly who, exactly what, and when, and says Jimmy Wales was right there, and was paying attention (I mean, they call them bored meetings for a reason - you sure he noticed?) and then he gives a contrary description, then maybe we can start speculating one of the two is actually saying something untrue. More likely, they'll simply say they interpreted the same statement differently, and if we heard the statement, then we'd have a chance to interpret it differently ourselves. This isn't hard science here ... more like an argument over how many smurfs you can squish in a barrel. Give me a bigger hammer and I can prove you a liar. :) Wnt (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I support Jytdog's free speech rights here because his persistence is within the bounds of civility, in my opinion.Smallbones is understandably getting tired of all the criticism of Jimbo, but persistence is often crucial when trying to get to the bottom of something and I think Jytdog's persistence is an acceptable approach in a seemingly complicated puzzle involving human behaviour with different spins and even different facts having been placed in our piublic arena for acceptance. It could be harmful to the long term soul of any movement to accept and archive presentations/reports about something important, that include what appears to some as a false reality propped up on flawed logic. At least that is my position on whether or not Jytdog has gone too far. I say no, he is just seeking the truth. Nocturnalnow (talk) 16:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Nocturnalnow but there is no "free speech" in WP, and nobody has any "rights" here. Jytdog (talk) 01:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Nocturnalnow but this is about Jytdog's bullying which has reached the point of McCarthyism. And I mean specifically the tactics of repeating vague accusations - without any proof of any kind - so often that people assume that there must be something to it simply because the vague accusations have been repeated so often. Jytdog has been "asking" the same "questions" for 2.5 months now, and he has received reasonable answers. It's time for Jytdog to step up to the plate and say exactly what his accusations are and what his evidence is. I've given him a nice slow pitch right down the middle of the plate, if he has anything he can whack that pitch right out of the ballpark. But I say he has nothing, no believable accusations and no evidence to back it up.

Jytdog can you produce anything? Or are you just another Joseph McCarthy. It's up to you. Show your stuff. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:49, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

@Smallbones: I've seen plenty of McCarthyism on this talk page in the past, and this ain't it. Please, we have enough chill pills on hand for everybody here. I have no doubt in my mind that dismissing a community representative was a bad idea, that not having a proper election afterward made it worse, but that doesn't mean that every side-issue where two imprecise accounts seem superficially contradictory has to lead to shouts of "that is a lie!", followed in due course by a duel at twenty paces. At the same time, we shouldn't expect people not to keep digging for details - which is one reason why it was such a bad idea, because it doesn't save the remaining board any hassles at all in the end. Wnt (talk) 20:53, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

@Smallbones: you are adding more heat than light throwing around hyperbolic accusations of McCarthyism. I have been reading this topic regularly and in my opinion Jimbo has indeed been guilty of giving answers which must be parsed for truth rather than being clear statements. Jimbo is a big boy and does not need others to shield him from questions from the community, he dodges them well enough on his own. Jbh^Talk 21:04, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I'll just wait for Jytdog's answer, if he can come up with one. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:16, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Once again

There is a lot of stuff about elephants and 'he said she said'. I don't care about this. Jimmy, my point is that if you are going to accuse people of being liars, or mentally traumatized, or talking 'utter f---ing bullshit' or other such mean things, then you need to back this up with 'exact quotes'. Indeed, even with exact quotes I am not sure those things are justified. ONCE AGAIN: where did James say publicly that he wrote to you in October that WMF was building a Google-competing search engine and that you "more or less said that I'm fine with it". Simple question. Peter Damian (talk) 11:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Peter Damian is not the only one waiting for an answer here, Jimbo. If James said that publicly (as you claim), that should not be difficult for you to find, should it? Huldra (talk) 22:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

It would be a pity if this question slipped off to archive unanswered. HolidayInGibraltar (talk) 10:41, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Can trustees ignore community requests?

Regarding Guy Macon's request for trustees to speak up regarding whether or not they are aware of any threats of removal having been made prior to the KE vote i.e. "Does any other board member corroborate this claim?"; I see this as a separate issue from J's and J's differing accounts. I see this aspect as being about what, if any, responsibility the trustees have to show some respect for requests from well established members of the community. Does anyone know the answer? Nocturnalnow (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

None. Trustees are not accountable to the community. There is an ethical argument that they are based on the WMF's stated values of transparency, but there is no mechanism by which trustees are actually accountable to anyone except the majority of the trustees, who can by a simple vote oust any other member, for any reason. Jytdog (talk) 01:13, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Greetings

Hello there! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.85.7.41 (talk) 14:35, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 09 March 2016

• News and notes: Katherine Maher named interim head of WMF; Wales email re-sparks Heilman controversy; draft WMF strategy posted

• In the media: Wikipedian is break-out star of International Women's Day; dinosaur art; Wikipedia's new iOS app and its fight for market share

• Op-ed: A modest proposal for Wikimedia’s future

• Featured content: Five articles, four lists, a topic, and five images were promoted this week.

• Technology report: Wikimedia wikis will temporarily go into read-only mode on several occasions in the coming weeks

• WikiCup report: First round of the WikiCup finishes

• Blog: The new alchemy: turning online harassment into Wikipedia articles on women scientists

• Systemic bias: Revenge of "I can’t believe we didn’t have an article on ..."

• Traffic report: All business like show business

• Read this Signpost in full
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• MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not preserve knowledge

Wikipedia does not serve the purpose of preservation of knowledge. This is because: 1) Every information needs an available source (to be checked). 2) If the source disappears (web-sites go off-line all the time, happens even to newspaper articles after some years), it doesn't matter how many times it was checked that what Wikipedia says is in accordance with the source, the information needs to be deleted if we can't find another source for that same info. So, if a catastrophe was to happen and all humanity were to have left after it was Wikipedia, then it would be the same as having nothing, because all the information at the articles would need to be deleted. Tusyas (talk) 06:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

This is known as link rot and there are various ways of dealing with it; Wikipedia has its own policy, WP:LINKROT. Two common ways round this problem are to use the Wayback Machine, which has an archive of web pages showing how they looked at various stages in the past, or WebCite, which allows users to archive a web page of their choice. Since the earliest days of the web in the 1990s, there have been concerns about the loss of data due to the transitory nature of web pages.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:25, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, the OP is quite correct: Wikipedia does not have the purpose of preservation of knowledge. The purpose of Wikipedia is to make knowledge accessible to the world, not to preserve it. That task belongs to other entities. Looie496 (talk) 15:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I think those of us who were left after such a catastrophe would go with common sense and consider Wikipedia its own source at that point... 80.229.152.168 (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)