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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mahawiki (talk | contribs) at 16:34, 2 November 2006 (→Article name updates for some Cities of Karnataka). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This talk page is automatically archived by Werdnabot. Any sections older than 30 days are automatically archived to /archive17. Sections without timestamps are not archived.
This page is a notice board for things particularly relevant to Wikipedians working on articles on India
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Requests for information or comment

Shipping Corporation of India more information India Export Tax India Import Tax

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Endgame1 (talk • contribs) 06:56, 18 October 2006.

Mall sainthwar/Mall sainthwar rajputs

I prodded it, as I can't verify the term; can somebody more familiar with India look at it and check if it is a hoax or a misspelled but encyclopedic article?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Input very much appreciate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mall sainthwar, there are users citing non-English sources that we have trouble veryfing.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  22:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Dear, What do you mean to say by non English sources? Do you mean that the facts which don't have citation of an english source, does not exist? My dear hindi is a language which is spoken/understood by 100 million people.. mind you, I repeat 100 million people i.e. almost one sixth of the world population. Shalendra Singh, Gorakhpur, U.P., India

Please see WP:RS#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English. Foreign language sources are acceptable, but English ones are prefferable. Also, since there are for obvious reasons not useful for most of our readers, it would be good if some users proficient in that language could verify that such books exist and contain the mentioned information, in light of this information being non-existant in English sources.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The community Mall- Sainthwar belongs to Hindi Heartland of India. The area has given many and most of Hindi Literature Writers( Peots, Writers, Dramatists, Historians). So History related to this area is available in Hindi. English writing in this area had been a rare existence.

Natinal level english historian has often missed this and many of other communities because they had written National level history and very often missed local and regional historical developments and communities.

Thanks

N P Singh

Talk:Main_Page#Obscurity

Our success was being talked about :) GizzaChat © 04:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Quite interesting how well the Indian side of Wikipedia has done, but with that in mind, India does have the largest number of English-speakers in the world. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 06:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kudos to all FA and DYK authors. Great job! - Ganeshk (talk) 06:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Project wishlist

The project wishlist has all the projects red-linked. Could someone explain, why is it so? Shyam (T/C) 15:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is because it is a wish-list. They are all yet to be created. We can remove them once they become blue. WikiProject Indian Cuisine is coming soon. (hopefully :)) Regards, Ganeshk (talk)
Thanks, but make sure the project name should be Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Cuisine before launching :D, Shyam (T/C) 16:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Local language map

There is a disagreement on the Talk:India about whether a local language script map is suitable for the demographics section. Additional comments at the article's talk page will really help. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 16:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't that be a big mess? Also, if an area has two or three different languages spoken by the people, does it mean all 2 or 3 scripts will be used? This is, after all, the *English* wikipedia, and maps, images, etc. needs to be in English. Having 4 or 5 names for each small chunk will be a horrible mess. --Ragib 17:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes...It would be lot of mess and there will be disputes of what language is spoken most. - Ganeshk (talk) 17:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why not put the map in another article, perhaps List of national languages of India and link to it from India? --BostonMA talk 17:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The map is nice, but I agree with Boston MA, that it should illustrate the national langs of India.Bakaman Bakatalk 19:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why is Pondicherry written in the Malayalam script on the map? Also, Andhra is missing a Pradesh in its name. Can these problems be fixed? -- Arvind 22:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dalitstan-based articles at Catalan wiki

There are a lot of articles at the Catalan wikipedia, based on the entirely fictional website dalitstan.org. These include ca:Hezb-i-Mughalstan, Front d'Allberament de Rajputana (anyone ever heard of the Rajputana Liberation Front?), etc. See ca:Categoria:Partits polítics de l'Índia. --Soman 21:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, now that dalitstan got banned in India, Barcelona seems to be their new hub. HIM is no political party. At best its Anti-Hindu cruft, at worst its akin with SIMI. Bakaman Bakatalk 01:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that HIM doesn't, and never did, exist. Its just one of many imaginary outfits whose sole existance is on the dalistan website. --Soman 11:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good point.Bakaman Bakatalk 00:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Need some info

Does anyone know when the last census with caste-based data was taken? I think it was 1931 but I need to be sure before I write an article. Thanks in advance. --Antorjal 17:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hindu temple in Malibu

I have uploaded a lot of pictures of the Malibu Hindu Temple in Calabasas, California. I was thinking to get a FP nom while taking the pics. :) Please do check out and comment. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 00:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This one which has a lunar halo around the top of the tower is great! You have my vote in WP:FPC. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 10:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That was the lone old picture of the lot. I had uploaded it in December 2005. It failed a Indian portal selected picture nom. Did not bother to take it any further. Thanks for your comment though. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 20:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Workgroup-level quality statistics

I have added all the sub-groups under WikiProject India to the Version 1.0 project. I updated the project's navigation bar to show the individual group's statistics at the bottom. This helps each group to work individually on the quality, while the quality of the articles in the project overall gets improved too. Please check bottom of the navigation bar of the Kerala project for an example. You should see 1FA and 1A quality articles. Please let me know if you have any questions or clarifications. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 07:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To explain a little further, a bot, Mathbot runs through this list of projects and creates statistics and log pages for each project (every night at 3 AM UTC). For example, the following are Kerala-related pages that the bot updates, Kerala articles by quality, Kerala articles by quality statistics, and Kerala articles by quality log. I request work-group members watch list the quality log page, to look out for vandalism. Vandalism would include removing the ratings from talk pages. Such changes will displayed bolded on the log page. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 18:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Warangal

I was just creating the Warangal Airport article and when I looked at the AAI site it shows the city and airport as being spelled "Warrrangal". The city article uses on one "R". Is the two "R"s an unofficial or alternate spelling? There is nothing in the city article to indicate the use of "rr". Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 09:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The official website of the Government of Andhra Pradesh spells it as Warangal.[1]. The National Institute of Technology (the premier institute of the region) also spells it as Warangal.[2] So, one 'R' must be the official spelling. I am not sure about the "rr" spelling. Someone from Andhra must verify that. Google gives many hits for warrangal for it to be a typo. - Aksi_great (talk) 16:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't have been curious but when the Airports Authority of India used "rr" I was a bit puzzled. I did also notice that there was no redirect from Warrrangal. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tamil Nadu location categorisation

Need comments here. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 22:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Average awareness level and seriousness about copy right laws is some how missing even amongst Indian wikipedians.Some Indian wikipedian will get caught unaware of his mistake some day and end up in jail.

Please we need to have some good articles in this respect.I have posted one article and is in dire need of support from Indian wikipedians ;please visit Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Fair use

Mahitgar 04:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Glad this has been raised. Some amendments to the Act are due soon. See Copyright website. It would be good if those with the interest can go through the amendments and clauses and comment, since this is currently open to public comment. One possible good thing for wikipedians would be to ensure that there is a clause similar to Work of Government in the US. This means that work done by government servants as part of their daily duties (non-sensitive and which can be obtained through the RTI) and funded by taxpayers is copyright free. Currently there is a 50 yr copyright on government work with some minor escape clauses. Shyamal 04:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's unlikely to happen. Indian copyright law is based on the philosophy of English copyright law, with its notion of crown copyright for government works, broad copyright protection for works of private authorship, and specific limited exceptions for fair dealing. This is all very different from US law, with its notion of government works belonging in the public domain, and a broad principle of fair use. I don't see us convincing the government - not to mention the legal profession - to accept such a radical change of philosophy. -- Arvind 08:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RfA notice

I've been thinking on this for a bit and I don't feel its appropriate to list notices of RfAs of Indian editors at INWNB - it is not dignified (in terms of bringing it to attention outside of WP:RFA). Additionally, others could allege (with a level of justification) that there is "networking" going on between Indian editors. I suggest that we remove that RfA column from the collaborations list (that's strange for a start - why is a request for adminship a "collaboration?"). What say? Rama's arrow 02:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To add, I don't think such a listing would be justified anywhere outside of WP:RFA, so I don't think we should emulate any other notice board or wikiproject. Rama's arrow 02:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It should go. -- Ganeshk (talk) 03:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree too. In fact, this was actually made into an issue in somebody's (whom I'm not able to recall) RfA. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 06:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think DaGizza was accused of advertising. I don't mind, because I have RFA Monitoring in my side toolbox to keep up with things, but I believe in my early days it was immensely useful to know whether an Indian user was going for RFA. Most of us haven't simply voted support simply because their Indian (I remember by memory that I voted against User:Sukh). Up to you guys in the end. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 07:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am all for removing it from collaboration dashboard. Definitely RfA is not a collaboration. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly the point - anyone going for an RfA shouldn't be classified as an Indian or anybody else. Its best to just check WP:RFA and its certainly not a "collaboration." Rama's arrow 11:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Does WP:ER fall into the same rationale? I would think it does, except that its largely harmless - a review is a request for advice, criticism aimed at self-improvement. Rama's arrow 14:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
ER does not fall into it. The rationale will apply to anything that involves voting, WP:RFA, Deletion sorting, WP:RM, WP:FAC, WP:FPC, WP:FLC etc. There is no consensus yet on these. Some people still feel posting on regional noticeboards will result in vote-stacking. -- Ganeshk (talk) 00:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Those which have to do with editors and not content are, IMO not to be advertised. India-topics articles and their issues are obviously relevant to INWNB. Rama's arrow 15:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's better not to list WP:RFAs here. People already question such listings as veiled ways of vote-stacking. Recently, just the mere mention of a WP:RM by Ganeshk was marked as such by others, even though that didn't involve any suggestions for how to vote.

Besides, what's the point of listing an RFA here? It is always better to see people being judged by their merits, rather than their regional ties. I personally feel that a complete stranger can judge a person's RFA candidacy better, by looking into contributions, comments, achievements etc. So, perhaps removing the RFA notices from here is a good idea. --Ragib 01:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a passing visitor I think it's ok to list such notices at pages were interested users congregate. Sure, there is a chance of 'voting by affiliaton', but there is also a chance of 'voting because one is interested/familiar with the issue but would not know about the vote otherwise'. Given the two and following WP:AGF I prefer to think that such ads will attract the users because of the second reason, not the first.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all,

I recently had a conversation with User:Darwinek about Categories. Find it HERE. If Darwinek is right as he most probably is, I guess we all have a hell of a lot of cleaning up to do on India related articles. Please take a look at the conversation and comment below. Sarvagnya 21:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, User:Darwinek is right. The cycles should be avoided -- a tree structure should be maintained wherever possible. Please see the guidelines on Wikipedia:Categorization#Some_general_guidelines: "Articles should not usually be in both a category and its subcategory". While diffusing Category:Universities and colleges in India, I encountered many such cases, and fixed them. utcursch | talk 13:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Andhra Pradesh

Can someone look at the modern politics section please. It looks in bad shape. Thanks, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 02:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

History of Tamil Nadu peer review

Hi, I have request that the History of Tamil Nadu be peer reviewed. Can you please take a look and offer suggestions for improvement? Thanks - Parthi talk/contribs 10:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Happy Diwali

Happy Diwali and New Year to all! Rama's arrow 15:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I second that! GizzaChat © 06:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Happy Diwali to all! BTW, that's my house's pic to the right. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 15:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Happy and prosperous Diwali and New Year wishes to all. Shreshth91, That pic is beautiful. -- Ganeshk (talk) 18:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't wish anyone yesterday as I was busy celebrating, so I guess it's a happy belated Diwali to everyone on Wiki! Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 01:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Happy Diwali to everybody!--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A very happy diwali to all from me too. - Aksi_great (talk) 09:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
From me too! utcursch | talk 10:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Happy Diwali! Effer 20:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Hindi Reader's Digest, July 1992

The article Why did the chicken cross the road? provides a supposed origin for the joke which is cited to an article in the Hindi-language edition of Reader's Digest (Sarvottam) from July 1992. However, there are several problems with the origin cited. Could someone with access to the relevant magazine issue review the original article and confirm that what the magazine says agrees with what is stated in the Wikipedia article? I wonder if the Wikipedia editor who added this part of the article may have misunderstood what the magazine article said. Thank you. --Metropolitan90 19:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiprojects and portals

I want to ask how others feel about the new bunch of wikiprojects and portals created. Its obvious that wikiprojects and portals can be created for each Indian state and major city, but I don't think its likely that a healthy rate of activity and results will be sustained - consider the Indian states and districts wikiprojects. Take a look at the Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Cartography - its made considerable progress but its also a unique topic.

It was absolutely cool how WP India consolidated other India wikiprojects. I suggest it would be better to create projects/portals based on zones and specific subjects like India maps. I also think discretion is need in creating these ventures. Can we issue a formal guideline or discussion? Rama's arrow 00:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can also understand the argument that there is a lot of work that can be done per state. But we have to consider the issues of running a wikiproject - its better to have projects on broad topics and work with an all-India perspective. Rama's arrow 00:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are need of a "Indian culture" WikiProject, which would be an umbrella for many smaller projects. Areas like Indian music, arts, sports (doesn't only pertain to cricket - includes hockey, kabaddi), cuisine, cinema (already have one), clothing and literature are underdeveloped compared to our cities, history and politics. GizzaChat © 00:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No the question was do we need a reorganization of efforts or putting a block on miscellaneous creations of India-related wikiprojects. Rama's arrow 00:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As long as there is interest and participation, we should not restrict creation of these smaller projects. I have seen Australian project have sub-projects at city level. For example, Adelaide. Whatever little the sub-projects do, it is going to help the root project a lot. I am thinking the opposite, if we create a wikiproject for a broad subject like Culture wikiproject, the participation will be minimal. More people will be interested in joining smaller projects like, Dance, Music, Cinema, Sports etc. Just my 2c. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 00:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Funnily enough, I think you make a very good point. Also, the issue includes portals, which I think require more in terms of limitations. Its not appropriate to create portals that are not of a broad topic - I would happily propose Portal:Hyderabad for deletion because even the lead article is not an FA. I suggest we develop a WP India guideline to replace the portal proposals page which was struck down. Rama's arrow 01:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your Portal:Hyderabad's deletion nom will fail. :) There is no requirement for a the lead article of a portal to be FA. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 01:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Its unlikely to fail because "not even the lead article" is FA. There are no other sizable articles on Hyderabad, so whats the difference between the article itself and the portal? Rama's arrow 01:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What I said was not in a serious note. I apologize for any offence. Portals can expand on templates such Topics related to Kochi. If we can find so many articles for Kochi, the same should be case for Hyd. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 03:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What offence? Did you think I was terse, then I apologize. I was merely pointing out that there are no sizable articles, let alone FAs for Hyderabad-related topics, so the deletion nom for the portal would, IMO definitely pass. Somebody has to do something fast about Hyderabad portal's issues. Rama's arrow 04:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I requested Chirags to take a look at it. He was active in getting Hyd to FA some time back. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 04:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you on the Portals. I think interest in them will last for the short term, they will lose their "current-ness" in a few months. For that reason, I feel they should not have information that needs updating regularly. They should simply point to static related content of the subject. That way they are current for ever. If this is followed, we can have unlimited number of portals without depending on anyone to update them. I like the portal process since it gives a reader links to various resources related to the subject. But they got to be static. I also notice a lot of templates (selected article, picture etc) getting created for each portal and they are starting to clutter talk pages. I wasn't for a selected article process at the portal level since the beginning. It's a unnecessary fork of the WP:FA process. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 01:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The portals should simply display FA articles related to the subjects continuously (in a loop). Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 01:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"...replace the portal proposals page which was struck down..." Can you eloborate? What's this portal proposal? Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 01:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
see WP:P/P. Rama's arrow 01:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 03:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On this note, someone should take a look at Portal:Tamil Nadu. Is anyone working on it? The Silent Contributor 05:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
yes, Portal:Tamil Nadu is in a bad state. In fact, Portal: Goa is also in bad state. Look at the selected biography and quotes sections. Seems to be sort of vandalism but could not be sure! Have left a message to the creator of the portal.--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lok Sabha constituencies

All the Lok Sabha constituencies have suffix (Lok Sabha Constituency). It should be replaced by (Lok Sabha constituency). Capital "C" should be replaced by small "c", like all the UK Parliament constituencies, Irish constituencies. Please suggest about these moves. We have completed more than 100 constituencies. Shyam (T/C) 14:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will see if I can automate these moves using a bot. I will let you know what I find out. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 18:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tip

Special:Recentchangeslinked/Template:WPIndia_Navigation will help you find out all the changes that happened to the India project and it's sub-projects. You can find this link on the top of the navigation bar as part of "(e - c)". -- Ganeshk (talk) 00:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, thanks for the link!!! I have been searching for this for a long time. The Silent Contributor 07:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can link to such RecentChanges pages in your side-toolbar. See my monobook under the relevant section. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 07:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Portal:Tamil

Portal:Tamil was ceated by Mayooresan on April 6, 2006. The portal is at very initial level. It contains only a small introduction only. I propose it to be deleted. Shyam (T/C) 17:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, especially as Portal:Tamil Nadu has a better, wider scope. Rama's arrow 19:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plotting multiple cities

We finally have a solution for Nichalp's request. Presenting you with the metropolitan cities of India:

Template:Location map start Template:Location map marker Template:Location map marker Template:Location map marker Template:Location map marker Template:Location map marker Template:Location map end

Yay!!! :) -- Ganeshk (talk) 23:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I tried this on 2006 ICC Champions Trophy. It came out nicely. -- Ganeshk (talk) 00:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Tamil

Please have a look at this entry, which I submitted following Shyam Bihari's comment above. Rama's arrow 20:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Caste lists vs. Caste cats

Myself and User:Utcursch have been discussing what to do with lists like List of famous Rajputs, List of Famous Nairs, Category:Brahmins, Category:Dalit, etc. Check WP:DSI for all Afd's.

  • My logic - Caste is something not notable to the subject if not covered in the article. Also, cats create a false impression that castes define Indian people. Lists may be ripe for caste-cruft but are not usually looked at by people unless they are of than clan. I think lists are a better idea than cats.Bakaman Bakatalk 04:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Utcursch's views

I nominated a some "List of famous <caste-name-here>" for deletion, because they were full of unsourced stuff and wrong information, and in my personal opinion, "indiscriminate collection of information".

After discussion with Bakaman, I realized I should not be really bothered about these lists -- he is right when he says that caste-cruft is usually not looked at unless except the people of that caste. But at the same time, I don't want Wikipedia to become a tool to glorify castes.

The problem is that if you keep lists, you can't stop creation of categories. People will eventually create categories, and if somebody moves them to deletion, the first argument will be: We've got Category:Indian Americans, so why we should not have Category:Yadavs, Category:Mahars, Category:Gaud Saraswat Brahmins. For example, recently a Wikipedia:Single purpose account (User:Sbei78) was created to carry out this task. Ignoring WP:INN, the argument given was "If xyz list exists, why should not this list exist?". In my very personal opinion, caste-based lists are not like List of Indians, rather they are akin to List of Rednecks, which we should not have (since Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information)

As of now, we do have Category:Brahmins and Category:Dalit, but these consist mostly of articles on sub-castes or related topics. But in future, I see biographies being categorized as Category:Dalits, Category:Jats, Category:Deshpandes. If such things are moved to deletions, people will cite existance of other such lists, ignoring WP:INN.

I'd suggest having a formal set of guidelines for this caste-related stuff. Like Bakaman said, lists are a better idea than categories (I am against creation of lists as well, but many already exist).

My ideal set of guidelines would be:

  1. No caste-based lists -- they are against Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information
  2. The caste-based categories should include only articles on sub-castes/related articles, not people.
  3. If an article says that "Person xyz belongs to this caste", the source should be provided. Otherwise, the statement should be removed. Also, in case of anti-caste people (such as many nationalists), the article should not begin with: "XYZ was an Indian Bhumihar/Dalit/etc...". Instead, there should be a statement in bio: "XYZ was born in a Bhumihar/Dalit/etc family".

But I know this is wishful thinking, and hardly anybody will agree with it. So, here is another set of proposed guidelines:

  1. Creation of caste-based lists and categories should be highly discouraged. The Category:Indian caste system should be maintained by Wikipedia:WikiProject India and any major changes should be discussed. You can't have official sources for most of these lists, as the Government of India documents only SCs/STs/OBCs. Also, inclusion of anti-caste nationlists such as Ramdhari Singh Dinkar and Swami Sahajanand Saraswati lists such as Famous Bhumihars (on the grounds that they were born in Bhumihar families) should be considered wrong.
  2. If lists are created, they should not consist of any unsourced items. Also the sources should not include sites/groups/forums dedicated to that particular caste (because they list almost every famous personality as theirs).
  3. The caste categories should consist prefereably of sub-castes and related articles, not people. If a biography article is categorized in such a category, sources should be povided on the article page.

I strongly suggest that we have an official set of guideline for this caste-related stuff, as a part of Wikipedia:WikiProject India. The guidelines can be decided by discussion and voting. utcursch | talk 05:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Utcursch

Your logic sounds good. If there are any lists at the present times, no red links should be permitted, and each person should have a reference proving they are indeed from that community or clan (caste).Bakaman Bakatalk 22:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

The initiative for discussion by Utcursch and Bakasuprman is excellent. By and large, their logic and arguments are also quite sound. However, I disagree on 2 points - (1) Go on case-by-case basis. It is not groundless to create articles, lists and categories based on castes, but there must be good sources and convention to justify it - no WP:OR, nothing that violates WP:RS or WP:POINT. (2) we must not develop a guideline through WikiProject India. This is vital - no group of editors based on nationality, religion, etc. should determine which content is advisable to create or not. I completely understand that our motives will be clean and our restrictions minimal. But we cannot create a guideline that inhibits the creation of new content. We don't, and shouldn't have this power. In addition, it will be a pain to change the guideline in due course of time if mandated by new developments. New crops of editors will look at things a lot differently.

My advice is, stick to the fundamentals - WP:RS, WP:NOT, WP:NOTABILITY, WP:CITE, WP:NPOV, WP:OR. These provide ample protection against articles that are poorly referenced, inherently biased or intended to prove a WP:POINT. Wikipedia's standards provide excellent protection against content that is questionable. No new criteria or guideline should be created by a smaller group of editors. To deal with fresh cases that may arise from time to time, begin with WP:AGF and work through discussion and consensus-building. No knowledge is unwelcome here. But that which is fake is not knowledge anyway. Rama's arrow 01:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nobleeagle's views

I have found the caste pages troublesome throughout my time at Wikipedia. The desires of vandals and POV-Pushers editing these pages can be summarized as.

a) to promote and glorify the history of their caste
b) to denounce and defame members of other castes.
c) to announce that famous Indian personalities are of their caste.

This often gets out of hand, because enforcement of Wikipolicies cited by Nirav above aren't being adhered to. Basically, what I'm getting at is people love creating these lists and probably won't stop just because we decide over here that we shouldn't let them. So, what is the solution? The creation of categories to divide people amongst castes is something I am opposed to. Firstly, it's very hard to get people to provide sources when working with categories, as one has to end up tracking down addition of categories on many different pages and we end up in a bit of a mess. It also gives undue weight to the caste system, which is diminishing in India. So let's keep it to lists. Maintaining lists can be hard as well, but we need to be especially strict. We have some pages dedicated to last names associated with a caste (eg. List of Khatri last names), I say we should be strict on these pages to prove that these last names are indeed the caste they are meant to be. There are some sites that can help here, such as Ancestry.com, which can give us the caste for Malhotra, Arya, Basu etc. etc. It would follow logically that people with any of these last names can be placed in the lists for their respective castes.

Now, not all surnames can be researched, in which case one would have to find a reputable source that states that a particular person is indeed of a particular caste. If this source is not provided, then names should be deleted almost instantly. One could easily source sites like Ancestry.com as we are pretty sure of many people's surnames. There's nothing wrong with redlinks as long as the people pass the test of notability. A few restrictions need to be placed on this list, Dalit activists who have converted and renounced their caste are no longer famous Dalits. If one has renounced the caste system and their caste, they cannot be labelled as part of a caste. For the most part, I think many Indians would know their caste (at least a broad caste, such as Brahmin, Kshatriya) and if they have not officially renounced their caste then they can be noted as part of this caste.

Now, note that all these comments are based on the fact that we can't control these lists from appearing. If one can have List of Hindus, List of Catholic American entertainers then people have justifiable incentive to create a List of Nairs. If you guys have a way of keeping these lists out of the war forever (and stopping them from being created on pages, see Khatri#Distinguished Khatris) then that would be ideal, but I don't think that's very easy to do. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 06:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hyderabad (India) has been moved to Hyderabad, India

I have placed a move template (with the discussion poll section), in its talk page, to move it back to its original name. As suggested in WP:RM. Thought anyone interested should know. --hydkat 14:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested moves

(Posted this in the wrong page yesterday)

Proposed redesign of the notice board

There is a on-going discussion about improving collaboration in the India project. As part of the discussion, we are proposing a redesign of the noticeboard page as a portal. This will improve and increase visibility to various activities in the projects. The proposed design page is at Indian Wikipedians' notice board. Please check and comment. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 05:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Please specify support or oppose the move to the new portal page:

Discussion

Add your additional comments:

Invitation to Indian WP editors to participate in FOSS.IN/2006

In September, Jimbo Wales visited Bangalore, and during the meeting with him, he mentioned that he was very keen to see the Indian language Wikipedias gain more prominence. One of the factors involved in this is awareness, and getting the word out not just about Wikipedia, but the Indian Language Wikipedias, and getting more people involved, plays a big role here.

For the past six years, my team and I have been running India's largest Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) event, earlier known as "Linux Bangalore", and now known as FOSS.IN. The idea behind the event is both to highlight the Indian FOSS community, and to encourage more people to contribute to FOSS and FOSS-related projects.

As I said here, Wikipedia is about as FOSS as a project can get, so it is dead in line with the objectives of FOSS.IN. With this in mind, I have invited the Indian Wikipedia community to participate in the event, which runs from November 24-26 in Bangalore, India. At this event, we have a "FOSS Expo" which is used to demonstrate FOSS projects and invite participation in them.

To enable these projects to participate and exhibit, we provide PCs, connectivity, table space, etc. to the exhibitors, and all for free. Our only requirement is the facilities provided are used to demonstrate actual FOSS projects, and Wikipedia, specifically the Indian Language Wikipedias, is totally qualified for this.

You can read more about this here. If you are interested in participating, do get in touch with me, or join the [mailing list]. User:Utcursch has already indicated that he would be attending the event and would love to participate, so you could possibly sync with him as well.

I look forward to the Wikipedia community's participation at FOSS.IN.

Achitnis 14:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am awaiting for that elusive North Indian event to happen too :( -- Lost(talk) 14:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Help needed

Requesting help to update "type=district|" to these articles 's infoboxes? If the coords look weird, please fix them too. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 08:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

done till Wayanad District. The last two were already done. I avgd out a few of the coords to let them fall in the states and removed extra square braces in state and website when I found them --hydkat 10:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Much appreciated-- Ganeshk (talk)


Help needed for belgaum border dispute

I request to take a look at Belgaum border dispute and check the bulking and additions of sundry, insiginificant information merely to push the POV.A short summary of events which sparked the trouble-

  1. I had added information with the help of a citation,everything was reviewed by admin User:utcursch.He himself contributed to the article.
  2. Kannada editors objected my addition of Yuvamelava subsection in the article.I argued that the convention was attended by 40,000+ it needs to be placed here.
  3. They (Sarvagnya,Naveenbm,KNM,Gnanapiti) started the trouble by adding sundry and irrelavant stuff and blatant POV. Their additions included a minor flag hoising ceremony by a mob of 15 people.Note that many Marathi news-citations I added had ample of POV but I think I avoided most of it and didn include it in the artcile.Thats why I had insisted the admin to examine the article.I was blocked for 3RR while the kannada users(they are suspected sock-puppets and a case is pending against them) The bulkying still continues while i am away...
  4. As a response I strted to edit out but I was resisted by them.I too added some insignificant stuff.(this was before the block)
  5. I plead neutral intervention.I request admins to examine the article, decide yourself what should be there,what should not be.Its an earnest request to enforce NPOV.

Thanks. Mahawiki 17:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC) PS:Pl look the talk page and the history of that article to verify my claims.[reply]

I would advise you to take this to the formal dispute resolution process. That page is quite a mess with sock armies, heated tempers and so on. -- Lost(talk) 18:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I take exception to Lost's 'sock armies' comment. Mahawiki has been insinuating me and other editors of being sock puppets. He and his great friend Baka have filed a checkuser on me. Its been a long time and for some reason, may be because the clerk sees the filing itself as frivolous, there hasnt been any result yet. In the meanwhile Mahawiki, Baka and their comrades are using that flimsy, good for nothing, 'official' accusation to try and mislead people about me. When it comes from the likes of Mahawiki and Baka, I couldnt care less about such accusations. I've learnt enough to 'hand wave' it away. But, it is extremely unbecoming of a senior editor like Lost to buy Mahawiki's rhetoric at face value and 'play along'. Yes, I know he didnt specifically mention me when he said 'sock armies', but the insinuation is there for everyone to see and plain as day. Shameful I should say. Sarvagnya 18:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Any particular reasons for mentioning "sock armies" specifically? I'm taking it as a personal attack on me as Mahawiki has explicitly mentioned my name. Branding someone as "sock" without knowing anything about the issue is not welcomed at all.Gnanapiti 18:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, please cool down. I am talking about single purpose accounts that come on the page and start abusing the other states and their denizens. Here are a few diffs for your reference [3] and [4]. I am not pointing at anyone trying to resolve the dispute. Please try to assume good faith before feeling hurt -- Lost(talk) 19:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And my advice to take it through a formal dispute resolution process still holds -- Lost(talk) 19:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi lost, what do u mean by dispute resolution? I was asked by admin to post here.Please specify so that I can approach it. BTW the page continues to filled with POV and nonsense by Kannada editors. They think their 'gang' will overwhelm me and I shall give up!
And sarvagnya mind ur tongue.Just because I am not responding to ur/ur friends comments doesnt mean I have given up. Make sure u behave urself or else u know I can give u equal and opposite reaction! Thanks.Mahawiki 05:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Mahawiki, please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. It explains step by step what needs to be done in the case of a dispute. There is also an informal way to go about it. You can request at Wikipedia:Mediation cabal for a mediator. -- Lost(talk) 05:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article name updates for some Cities of Karnataka

Today (November 1st, 2006), by Government of Karnataka, some of the cities of Karnataka are being renamed to their original form from the current anglicised forms like Bangalore to Bengalooru (IBNLIVE article. More references and developments available in 2nd paragraph of Bangalore article).

Changes:

Now, what needs to be done in Wikipedia?

Based on the lines of Mumbai (redirected from Bombay), Chennai (redirected from Madras), Kolkata (redirected from Calcutta), we should be providing the redirects from current name to the new name, (eg: provide the redirect from Bangalore to Bengalooru). Then we will need to provde the sentence in introduction of each article, referring to the old name, like ((formerly Audio file "Bangalore-pronunciation.ogg" not found) ). This is exactly how it is done in other articles(Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata).

Along with these redirects/moves, we will need to write a general paragraph applicable for these changes and should be put in a section of all these articles. I request Admins' help in this regard. - KNM Talk 16:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Strong Support - Since the movement has been made officially by the authorities and the government of Karnataka, we should be following the same strategy that has been applied for other such cities such as Kolkata, Chennai and Mumbai. Gnanapiti 18:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute/controversy is about where the city should belong, and not about the name of the place; and it is going on since several decades. At present, and as long as it is part of Karnataka state, the Government of Karnataka is the governing body of the place. The name is Belagavi as per the governing body and it is considered official. Please let us not mixup border dispute with the name change. Thanks. - KNM Talk 02:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The decision to change the names from Nov 1st 2006, was taken many months ago by the then government headed by the Congress party. It is being implemented by parties which were then in the opposition, but are now ruling. BJP is one of the ruling parties and its common knowledge that Congress and BJP are as bitter political opponents as they get. So the question of 'some other party' changing it doesnt arise. Also, such a precedent has never been there in India. Political consensus was never a problem in this issue.
  • As for WP:NAME saying it should be named according to the 'English speaking world' - well, I couldnt find it on WP:NAME. Maybe because it has lot of sub articles. I havent searched through all of them. I request you to please post the specific link.
  • Also going by that convention would be treading in gray area. Because when I last checked, many airports and post offices around the world still go by Bombay, Calcutta, Madras etc.,(the old names of those cities) while the corresponding articles on WP are the new names.
  • Also, the fact that it is Bengalooru has been reported widely in all kinds of media in India - English and vernacular. Sarvagnya 23:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The belgaum_border_dispute should be made exception for Belgaum. This is an emotional angle to it. The disputed region should be spared. Belgaon (marathi) and Belgavi(kannada) shoulkd not be used and English Belgaum should be used to avoid clashes. The case of dispute is with Supreme court of India,the name change is most likely to stay on paper as marathi people are bound to oppose the name change and never implement it. BTW the voting counter should look here before the final verdict. Mahawiki 18:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose: Use common names in English. A preference for official names where usage is mixed is legitimate, and this is what was used to move Bombay to Mumbai. However when one name is overwhelmingly common in English, we should use that one. --Delirium 03:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The case of Bengalooru/Bangalore is in no way different from Mumbai/Bombay. Just like Mumbai, Bengalooru has always been what the native 'Bangaloreans' have called it. And just like Mumbai, Bengalooru is just about going 'back' to what the native residents have always called it. "Bengalooru" is not something somebody conjured out of thin air overnight. Sarvagnya 03:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The Indian media has now started using Bengalooru since yesterday while covering issues related to erstwhile Bangalore. Also, it is an official decision to rename the city similar to what happened in case of Chennai, Mumbai, Kolkata and Beijing. Here is one more news story from one of India's premier news papers (Times of India) on the official decision. [5]. Naveen (talk) 04:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Pl note that renaming of Belgaum doesnt hold above explaination. Belgavi is a alien name for the Maharashtrians (which are in large no and relative majority) of Belgaum and they call it Belgaon. Mahawiki 04:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't mix border dispute and renaming. As of this writing, Belagavi is still administered by Government of Karnataka and its decision is binding on it. FYI, MES legislatures from Belagavi attend legislature seesions in Karnataka and not in Mumbai. People can refer to it as and how they want, but Wikipedia articles are based on official names and Belgaum is now officially called Belgavi. Naveen (talk) 04:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How can it be when it will never be used by locals? MES and Marathi people care less about Karnataka's naming policy. The case is in Supreme court and hence I would urge not to use names of either language here.The new name as i said before will remain on papers when Belgaumkars will stick to Belgaum. Mahawiki 04:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. See WP:UE. Maybe when the new names become more widely used in the English-language media. --Xiaopo (Talk) 06:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The state name invariably becomes the most used name with time. BTW has the state government brought in the legislation or released an official notification about the change? because thats when such a name change takes legal effect (if I am not mistaken)
  • Official decision has been taken and announced. All thats left is minor things like "Geological Survey of India" printing new maps with the new names, new forms etc., being printed in govt., offices etc.,. In other words, the order has been given, it just has to percolate down. According to media reports, this may take a month or so. Sarvagnya 07:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
nevertheless its official only, and only when, all the formalities are completed :). Shouldn't take long. [6] --hydkat 08:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support. Those are the new official names in English and as such should be used. —Nightstallion (?) 08:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral but who came up with some of those crazy spellings? Mysooru? What language is that from? Shouldn't it be Maisūru or Maisuuru if it's derived from Kannada script? —  AjaxSmack  08:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment According to the BBC[7] and NDTV[8] the spelling will be Bengaluru. Other newspapers say Bengalooru. Which is the correct one? Also is the approval of the government in Delhi needed? Here they say it may be.[9] I didn't understand fully what they were saying because I don't properly understand the center-state relationship in India. Otherwise, I also agree the article should be under the official name. -- Ponnampalam 09:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Please read this article [10] which confirms that the Kannada name will also be used in English language(for those towns/cities whose names have been officially changed). So why the capitulation?. Its Bangaluru in English as well. Who is anyone to decide whether the name will catch on, gain popularity or change again over the decades. The name of Mumbai may change again too. Did that stop people from using it as the official name on wiki?. Lets get on with it and let us not allow doubting Thomases and prejudists to stop us from doing the right thing. Let us not forget that the its the dream of the common man with no access to computers and wikipedia which has been fulfilled. Where are there votes? This voting thing is bogus as it accounts for the affluent who dont care much and prefer English names anyway. Bangalore just does not belong to Bangaloreans but to the whole of Karnataka. Take a census with the 55 million people in Karnataka and you will see the right % of those want the change and those who dont. The whole idea of changing the name is to assert ourselves and our pride in Kannada. We dont need to prove whether the name will catch on or become popular.Dineshkannambadi 14:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Right. Take a census with Belgaumites and they will tell u that they dont want Kannada name to their city. Belgaum has majority of Marathi speakers and they are comfortable with present name. Many of them may want to change it to Belgaon. So keep Belgaum as it is. Read this and this to ascertain the majority of Maharashtrians and their 'opposition' to Kannada.Mahawiki 16:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Attukal?

Pardon me if I sound ignorant.. but the place referred to in Attukal appears to be the same as Attingal. Can someone check? As far as I know, Attukal is the Tamil name for a kitchen implement used for grinding. The Silent Contributor 14:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Attukal & Attingal are two different places. AND yes you are pardoned.-Bharatveer 14:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bharatveer is right: they are different places. Btw, Attukallu is a kitchen instrument even in Malayalam.--thunderboltz(Deepu) 14:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppets confirmed.what to do next?

Please see this This user has been harrasing and bothering and pushing his POV (escaping 3RR rule as well) Talk:Belgaum, Talk:Belgaum_border_dispute are few of his misdeeds. I request a strict action against Sarvagnya. What furthur steps should be taken?Mahawiki 19:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding this matter, I would like it if some admins from here keep an eye on the articles for a while as it is getting too late in Ahmedabad. Also keep an eye on AN too. - Aksi_great (talk) 20:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism in S.I.E.S_High_School article.

It seems the S.I.E.S_High_School article is the target of someone's personal grudge. At least twice has it been vandalised - the person keeps changing the fees information to say that the school is expensive. I am an ex-student of the school and know that the fees are minimal. However that may have changed, but this user - who is known only by his/her IPs (83.219.101.152, 83.219.104.35) - keeps changing the fee information without providing any sort of reason or reference. I request the WikiProject India moderators/admins to look into this. I have posted this notice here, since the school article has been made part of the Indian WikiProject. For the moment I have reverted the vandalism, but something more permanent needs to be done. Thank you. Rohitbd 05:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Need for saprate articles---- Vishal1976

Article needed on Pandharpuri Buffalo Please create a one with the help of following links

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