Talk:2023

Collage

With the first quarter of 2023 done, I think we can begin making a collage which would obviously be altered throughout the rest of the year.

1. The Syria/ Turkish Earthquake 2. French Pensions protests (although this is domestic, some domestic events get global attention) 3. Israeli Judicial Reform protests (same situation as France) 4. The rise of AI (maybe Chat GPT could be used) 5. The Chinese Spy Balloon incident 6. Trump's indictment (same thing as France) 7. Signiture Bank Collapse (mostly a US thing but it had global impacts) 8. Finland joining NATO, which hasn't happened yet, but it will soon TRJ2008 (talk) 13:40, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Certainly the collage can be less American-centric than you propose: Benedict XVI's funeral, assault on Brazilian high institutions, High Seas Treaty... _-_Alsor (talk) 16:53, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree. MarioJump83 (talk) 09:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Also in agreement here, although I probably wouldn’t include the Brazil capital events on the collage, for much the same reasons as those of the US in January 2021. TheScrubby (talk) 09:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with most of these, though I don't think the Chinese spy balloon should qualify, it wasn't that big a deal at the end of the day. GevBen (talk) 18:58, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd say five for now: Silicon Valley Bank, ChatGPT and AI, Brazil, the Earthquake, and Finland joining NATO./ InvadingInvader

Nominate the inclusion of the following events for consideration (with some events repeated from previous nominations). (1) Croatia adopts the euro and joins the Schengen Area, (2) 2023 Turkey–Syria earthquake, (3) Northern Ireland Protocol, (4) High Seas Treaty, (5) Iran and Saudi Arabia agree to resume diplomatic relations, (6) Acquisition of Credit Suisse by UBS, (7) IPCC Sixth Assessment Report, (8) Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO. Carter00000 (talk) 08:58, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Although I would not include the sixth IPCC report. The previous ones have not been included in the collage. Not that it's irrelevant, but it's not particularly noticeable either. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd replace the IPCC report with either the Israeli or French protests. Every previous year for the last few years has had a major protest from around the world in the collage and I feel like these were the most high profile ones this year so far. GevBen (talk) 23:06, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no need for so many pictures - in fact, there is no need for a collage at all. Let's wait until we know what this year's big news stories are. Any particularly significant individual events can have images placed alongside their entry. Deb (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I prefer to wait until this year is finished. I remember feeling that the collage of 2022 are being not up-to-date after October's events, with crowd crushes and collapses of that time. MarioJump83 (talk) 00:55, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Best option is to not have the collage at all since it is entirely useless. Least bad solution is at the very least to wait for the year to be over before we even start talking about it since trying to compile the content before year's end would just be a complete waste of time. --McSly (talk) 19:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the notion not to have a collage until the end of the year. And I also agree that we really don't need many pictures at the moment if there even was one right now. That being said if I had to say what I think should eligible for the collage:

• For certain - Turkey-Syria Earthquake, Finland joining NATO
• Should be considered but could be swapped out - French or Israeli protests (I don't think it's likely we'd choose both), American Bank Collapses, Brazil Congress Attack, AI, High Seas Treaty, Sudan Conflict

As I said though, I think we should wait until the end of the year just to post a definitive collage because by that point everything would be a lot clearer in retrospective on what to add and also it would avoid constant changes as notable events are always likely to spring throughout the rest of the year. CaptainGalaxy 12:29, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Whenever everyone decides to vote on images, I gladly volunteer to assemble this year's collage! The ganymedian (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

India overtaking China as most populous country

Do we think this is notable enough? It seems there has been support for inclusion but the prior entries were premature. It appears now that most sources agree that India is now the most populous country. I've always been on the side of borderline include since we don't do this for any other milestone. For example, we probably wouldn't add an entry if China had overtaken the US for the world's largest economy.

If we keep inclusion, I think it makes the most sense to include it in the lede as we don't have an exact date for when India overtook China. We could go with April 24th as that is when the UN announced it, but I think it makes more sense within the lede. PaulRKil (talk) 14:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I am leaning towards include. But only with a reliable, credible, official source included. Not some obscure blog or opinion piece. Wjfox2005 (talk) 15:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I copied the entry from 2020s about the population change and it cites the united nations. To me, that seems authoritative enough in spite of some peoples perceptions of the UN. PaulRKil (talk) 16:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with inclusion until List of countries and dependencies by population is updated, and if an exact date can be RS'd. Include as an event. The prominence given as a sentence in the lead to me is undue weight. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Could someone inform me as to why that the UEFA has an Invisible comment telling us to not include it?

I don't see consensus on this specific talk page to remove it, please direct me to the discussion if such one exists. Would dispute the decision as well; UEFA to Europe itself as well as football/soccer fans worldwide is a BIG deal and certainly has the Due Weight which merits inclusion. I believe that the UEFA invisible comment violates Wikipedia:Invisible comments on it telling editors on how to edit, and certainly if no consensus to exclude UEFA exists. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm open to a discussion on UEFA and the other five federations when it comes to their championship series'. My understanding is that we really only mentioned global sporting events such as the World Cup and the Olympics on main year articles as seen in this discussion. My only concern is that it introduces a situation where editors may feel compelled to enter other events like the World Series or the Super Bowl. PaulRKil (talk) 13:11, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Titanic Submersible Disappearance

Should "A submersible carrying five people goes missing while attempting to view the wreck of the Titanic" be included on the page? Carter00000 (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Include. (Edit: But perhaps reword it to emphasise the international aspects.) This is clearly a prominent story and a notable event in 2023. It's drawing worldwide attention, and been the main headline across major news outlets, for days now. International crew, international rescue effort (Canada and the U.S.), deep sea mission to an iconic shipwreck (Titanic). Wjfox2005 (talk) 10:42, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

? Of course. The language should be tweaked when more information evolves, but undeniable that this should be included. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Include this. It is worldwide news, and a major international event. The ganymedian (talk) 00:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Exclude we don't include similar events in main year articles, for example we don't have the disappearance of Hale Boggs and Nick Begich nor do we include the disappearance of Steve Fossett. There is a lot of media coverage but just because there is coverage doesn't mean it warrants inclusion. PaulRKil (talk) 12:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree, as while the event is noteworthy, the articles for specific years regularly exclude many noteworthy events. The death toll, while tragic, wasn't especially high and this event was isolated due to specific problems with the submarine. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Include due to wide international interest. Try to merge all the necessary details into one entry, and consider making such date that the event it's listed on as the day when the sub is first reported. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:16, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment. I've removed the importance inline tag for this entry, given the responses in this discussion. Carter00000 (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2023‎ (UTC)

Yes, I agree, given the likely repercussions of this event. Deb (talk) 14:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I also agree with removing the inline tag and rescind my exclude comment. PaulRKil (talk) 14:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

When should we include the current events going on in Russia?

I think a starting point at the very least is what the initial outcome is in Rostov, but I'm open to any comments or suggestions on it. This seems like an absolute no brainer to include IF the reports are accurate (much is still unconfirmed, I should add).

Pinging @PaulRKil and @InvadingInvader, but I'm all ears to anyone. Losipov (talk) 04:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The current entry looks fine to me, but let's see how the story develops in the coming days/weeks. Wjfox2005 (talk) 10:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think its always appropriate to wait until more authoritative sources are able to corroborate the information. The original entry was largely added when the information was coming from open source intelligence and telegram channels who were largely just sharing statements from Prigozhin, who is objectively not the most reliable individual. At this point, the entry looks good but may need more detail as the events unfold. PaulRKil (talk) 13:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I concur with PaulRKil and am going to say Wait. It's probably gonna be on here eventually...but the success of Wagner's incursion changes whether this is simply an event or something bigger spanning multiple entries. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Collage

2023 is now halfway done and I think we can start working on a collage. There will obviously be moments later in the year that would replace some of those I'm about to mention. Anyway here's my suggestions:

The Turkish Earthquake

The Titan Implosion

Charles' coronation

The rise of AI

The spy balloon incident

The Israeli Judicial reform protests

The Wagner rebellion

The Sudanese conflict TRJ2008 (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Personally I am of the opinion we shouldn't have a dedicated discussion on the collage until say late-November or December. A lot can happen in another 6 months so I'd rather we just let it play out before we focus on the collage. That being said, in my opinion some of the events suggested I don't think reflect this year or at least aren't as impactful as others. The events in question that you have listed are; The Titan Implosion - It doesn't have any impact on much, Charles' Coronation - Debatable but is likely not going to get past voting, Spy Balloon - It was impactful but feel wasn't as notable as other events, Wagner Rebellion - Could be really impactful but I suggest just waiting and seeing how it pans out. CaptainGalaxy 14:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

We have already come to a concensus on the collage

We have added the earthquakes, the Brazillian congress attack, the banking crsis, and the ICC's arrest warrant for Putin. You can find the links to the images on the edit page. Thanks for trying DementiaGaming (talk) 15:28, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

When the end of the year is near, and people vote on photos to include, I happily volunteer to make this collage! The ganymedian (talk) 16:18, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree, we should wait until the end of the year, I can't wait to see what the collage will look like. 4me689 (talk) 22:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

there is a collage discussion here, about a early version of the 2023 collage that was made, for anybody interested. 4me689 (talk) 20:57, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Canadian wildfires, MINUSMA, Nahuel M

Apparently, these events may have international impact. Canadian wildfires, for example, had affected United States and may have affected UK. Last day, MINUSMA was ended, and Nahuel M riots, while mostly localized to France, had cancelled Macron's visit to Germany. Should we include it? I'm not sure. MarioJump83 (talk) 11:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest to only include MINUSMA, as it was a international taskforce. The wildfires and riots I feel are more localized to their country, so are not as significant. Carter00000 (talk) 12:54, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I've boldly added the UN ending MINUSMA. Carter00000 (talk) 14:11, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

2023 North India floods & 2023 South Korean floods

Should we add 2023 North India flood & 2023 South Korean floods to the page? The death toll for both events are quite high, comparable to other disasters which have been included on this page (ie. June 21, June 14, March 18, January 10). Carter00000 (talk) 14:03, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

The North India flood deserves to be on there, it killed 422 people. DementiaGaming (talk) 18:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Should the 2023 Uzbekistan presidential election be removed?

In my opinion the July 9th entry about the 2023 Uzbekistan presidential election should be removed, because the incumbent was elected in a rigged election with no genuine political competition. It also wasn't a referendum (i.e. for constitutional or territorial changes). Most national elections are featured, but some aren't (i.e. obscure, regional or local, or rigged). I think this one should be removed for being rigged. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 01:38, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Strong Include. We have usually included elections which have been alleged to be "rigged" in the past. We're here to document events as reported in RS's and not here to right great wrongs by creating original research evaluating weather a election is "rigged" or not. Carter00000 (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@JohnAdams1800, I note that you've removed the entry with the edit summary The 2023 Uzbekistan election is not sufficiently important--the incumbent was easily re-elected, the country is obscure, and there was no corresponding referendum as well.

- I've addressed you first point the incumbent was easily re-elected in my previous comment.

- On your second point the country is obscure, this is essentially systemic bias. As per the page, Bias can be...implicit when articles or information are missing from the encyclopedia. Your rationale is essentially stating that systemic bias should be the basis for evaluating weather a item is included. We're not here to evaluate weather a country is obscure, nor should we be making that distinction.

- On your third point there was no corresponding referendum as well, I'm not sure how it is relevant. Current consensus does not typically require a corresponding referendum for a election to be considered valid, or included on a page. Carter00000 (talk) 08:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Exclude. I don't think this should come down to whether it was "rigged" but rather if it is a notable enough event. Not every election is included in this article and elections like these really bloat the article. Yeoutie (talk) 16:20, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Related to this, this article is becoming overrun with similar elections that are not notable enough and belong in 2023 national electoral calendar and similar articles. In my opinion elections such as: Niuean, French Polynesian, Antiguan and Barmudan, Mauritanian, and more should all be removed. Just because it is an election is not sufficient enough to warrant inclusion here. Yeoutie (talk) 16:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I looked at 2022 and 2021 and got the impression that we tend to list all national elections, even the ones in small countries. I think that's a reasonable approach. I guess there are roughly fifty to eighty such elections per year. Year pages list a few hundred events. Sure, a significant number of them will be elections – I guess around 25% to 30%. Seems OK to me. — Chrisahn (talk) 12:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks like you are correct as I consulted with the 2016, 17, 18 and other articles as examples and did not look at the most recent years. Seems like the standards for the inclusion of elections have become broader as very few elections are included in articles pre-2020s, going back for decades. Yeoutie (talk) 16:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. Few elections are listed on 2016 and 2017, but lots on 2018 (117 words on that page contain "elect"). I wonder if there used to be a rule about inclusion of elections on year pages that changed around 2018, but I guess if there was one it was more implicit than explicit. I tried to find general inclusion rules for year pages, but didn't come up with much. WikiProject Years and Timeline standards don't seem to provide detailed guidance. Maybe there were discussions about which elections to include on Talk:2017, Talk:2018, etc.? I didn't check. — Chrisahn (talk) 20:43, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Include, of course. Frankly, people who think Uzbekistan is "obscure" shouldn't be editing this page. Wikipedia:Competence is required. And of course national elections are notable enough for year pages. Just look at 2022, 2021, etc. etc. We list national elections, even in tiny countries like Cape Verde. If the elections are considered rigged or illegitimate by national or international observers, we clearly say so in the lead of the election article. Unfortunately, that's the case for lots of elections, e.g. 2021 Ugandan general election, 2022 Turkmenistan presidential election and many others, but of course we still list them on the year page. Let's not be silly. — Chrisahn (talk) 12:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Include all elections or events that affect a nation's head of state or head of government including presidential elections, national parliamentary elections, and other such elections including indirect elections (papal conclaves, committee votes that are used in single party states like China, appointments by a monarch, etc.) and events like the death of a leader, resignation, coup, war, government collapse, etc.

If we want to remain free of a western bias, we need to include every sovereign nation state regardless of size or influence. PaulRKil (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Typhoon Doksuri

The death toll for Doksuri is getting up there (122 last time I counted), and it affected three different countries. Should we add it? Let me know. DementiaGaming (talk) 18:26, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

What to put on the events list

There has been much conflict on what to put and what not to put on the events list, so I made this list for anyone who is willing to follow it.

Natural disasters: If the disaster killed a famous figure plus five more, the disaster will be included. If the disaster resulted in more than $10 billion USD in damage, the disaster will be included. If the disaster resulted in the destruction of a UNESCO heritage site, the disaster will be included.

Avalanches - Avalanches or landslides with a death toll of over 300 will be included.

Disease outbreaks - Outbreaks with a death toll of over 500 will be included.

Earthquakes - Earthquakes with a death toll of over 150 will be included. Earthquakes with a magnitude of 8.6 or over will be included.

Famines - Famines with a death toll of over 500 will be included.

Floods - Floods with a death toll of over 150 will be included.

Heat waves - Heat waves with a death toll of over 300 will be included.

Impact events - All impact events will be included if they occurred next to a city or town.

Limnic eruptions - All eruptions with a death toll of over 35 will be included.

Tornadoes - All tornadoes with a death toll of over 150 will be included (I'm looking out for ya, Joplin).

Tropical cyclones - All cyclones with a death toll of over 150 will be included. If the cyclone spawned more than 100 tornadoes, the cyclone will be included.

Tsunamis - All tsunamis with a death toll of over 150 will be included.

Volcanic eruptions - All eruptions with a death toll of over 150 will be included. Eruptions with a VEI of 6 or over will be included.

Wildfires - All fires with a death toll of over 100 will be included. Fires that have burned over 30 million acres of land will be included.

Winter storms - All storms with a death toll of over 150 will be included.

Transportation accidents/incidents: If the accident killed a famous figure plus five more, the accident will be included. If the accident resulted in the destruction of a UNESCO heritage site, the disaster will be included. If the accident was a result of a terrorist act, then all accidents with a death toll of over 80 will be included.

Train wrecks - Wrecks with a death toll of over 70 will be included.

Airplane disasters - Disasters with a death toll of over 70 will be included.

Wars: If the war killed over 300 people, the war will be included. If the war resulted in the destruction of a UNESCO heritage site, the war will be included.

Coups d'etat - All coups, regardless of the country, will be included.

That's all I have for now. If I have any new ideas, they DementiaGaming (talk) 21:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

this is a great inclusion criteria, though I'd rather bring this up on WP:YEARS than here. 4me689 (talk) 23:37, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh... I didn't know that WP existed, lol. DementiaGaming (talk) 23:56, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. The Due Weight policy should guide with this. Even if we were to have a solid criteria, the list is too heavy with "bad" events anyways; I'd be more open to including events like corporate acquisitions, notable revolutionary product launches like the iPhone or ChatGPT, economic events which affect a lot of people like interest rate hikes and stock market rallies, labor strikes like SAG-AFTRA and (potentially) UAW, and more. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

For further thoughts, see User:InvadingInvader/Against international notability. Inclusion criteria are too arbitrary in my opinion, and we don't need them to cause even more of what used to happen on years articles. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

this doesn't really go against any inclusion criteria we currently have, but fixes them a bit. corporate acquisitions, notable revolutionary product launches like the iPhone or ChatGPT, economic events which affect a lot of people like interest rate hikes and stock market rallies, labor strikes like SAG-AFTRA and (potentially) UAW, and more are definitely Things We should strive to include, but there needs to be a Mark between a disaster that killed 15 and one that killed 1,000, and yes I agree with whats on User:InvadingInvader/Against international notability but the pages are getting too big and the best thing to do is to remove useless trivia by putting some of the entries into sub pages. 4me689 (talk) 01:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Should we increase the numbers by 50 or 100 percent, then? DementiaGaming (talk) 12:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Scrap the numbers. Don't even do numbers at all. Do it based on the amount of coverage that it receives. More coverage generally equals more notability. We already have policies which cover trivia. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:20, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Mass Removal of Content

I note that user JohnAdams1800 has made a number of removals across the page. The edit summaries for the removals seems to cite consensus which is not readily apparent or documented.

• The UAW strike isn't important enough to merit inclusion here. It would merit being in the 2023 in the U.S. article but it's too localized and not a natural disaster.

• The SAG-AFTRA strike is too localized to merit inclusion on this page.

• Hurricane Hilary is too localized and didn't cause exceptional damage or death.

• The St.Petersburg bombing is part of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and doesn't merit its own entry.

• The New Zealand-EU trade deal is too localized and routine to merit an entry on this article.

• The Tenerife fire didn't cause any fatalities, and is thus too localized to merit an entry.

• Bilateral relations, both commercial and military, are not sufficiently important to merit entries unless they are truly extraordinary or conflicts.

I would like to seek some additional input on weather the items should be removed, given the quantity of the removals and the justifications for the removals.

Removed Content

The following items were removed. September 15 – The United Auto Workers (UAW) begin a strike against the big three American automakers of Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis. August 16 – August 21 – Hurricane Hilary, a Category 4 Pacific Hurricane, strikes the Baja California peninsula and later Southern California, the region's first in 84 years. August 15 – 2023 Tenerife wildfire: More than 3,000 people are evacuated from the Spanish Canary Island of Tenerife as a wildfire breaks out. The fire burns some 2,600 hectares (around 6,424 acres) of land. July 14 – SAG-AFTRA announces it will begin an ongoing strike against the major film and TV studios in protest of low compensation, ownership of work, and generative AI. July 10 China and the Solomon Islands sign a cooperation agreement between the People's Police and the Royal Solomon Islands Police Force in an upgrade of bilateral relations. The European Commission and the U.S. government sign a new data communication agreement aimed at resolving legal uncertainties that European and American companies face when transferring personal data. July 9 – New Zealand signs a free trade agreement with the European Union, increasing bilateral trade. April 2 2023 Saint Petersburg bombing: Russian pro-government war correspondent Vladlen Tatarsky is killed by a bombing at a café in Saint Petersburg owned by oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin. Sixteen others are injured.

Carter00000 (talk) 18:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• Propose to reinstate all removed items for the time being, given the vague references to consensus given as justification in the edit summaries. The items may be removed again later if there are other editors who wish to remove the items and/or consensus to remove the items. Carter00000 (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support totally agree. There is no need for an extensive justification if it is sufficiently clear, easy to understand and are common sense knowing what is the raison d'être of Year in Topic. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:25, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose mass removal, at least for now. This is the old international notability standard back at it again. See my essay on why we should not bring back International Notability for context. There is no consensus for neither the standard nor the removal. I am vehemently against the standards as enforced from 2021 to early 2023 being reigned in yet again.

I personally am strongly against the removals of either UAW or SAG-AFTRA. Unions affect a major chunk of notable businesses which have a wide effect on culture. For UAW, the argument is a bit stronger for exclusion, but prices for automobiles are due to go up because of this alone, and it's covered by reliable sources (Vox and AP. For now, given the grave impacts that RS's have cited could be caused from the UAW strike, I argue for its inclusion, though if it gets resolved quickly without major effect to the economy as described by RS's, I will support exclusion.

I could see as to why bilateral diplomatic and trade relations aren't too significant enough. The standards for natural disasters seem to arbitrary, though I could see the argument for Hurricane Hilary and the Tenerife fires. I would be open to a firmer standard or criteria for natural disasters pending that it gets an RFC.

For other events, I would suggest that we include or exclude them based on due weight, and not arbitrary standards. Previous debates on 2022 regarding the inclusion of Robbie Coltrane and more so Barbara Walters (the "Coltrane RFC" and "Walters RFC" respectively) cited the wide dissatisfaction with international notability as it has been previously defined on Years articles. I do not wish to see it implemented here ever again. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose mass removal. The SAG-AFTRA strike should absolutely be included. The strike being due, at least in part, to the emergence of AI, is highly notable. It would be useful and informative to readers in the future, looking back at the progress of this tech. Also, Hollywood studios have global reach and a major influence on culture, and the workers are often based in other countries, not just the US. Wjfox2005 (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

So what? The real impact of this is minimal and almost nonexistent in the world. Just because it's Hollywood, we're not going to include the death of the cat that used to walk around the studios. _-_Alsor (talk) 15:45, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

in my opinion it should be Case by case basis.

SAG-AFTRA & UAW strikes should be included, because they are covered 24/7 on the news and has a big impact on their respective industries.

Hurricane Hilary should be included, because it infected not only the us but also Mexico and some Caribbean countries.

The St.Petersburg bombing should be excluded because this Page is not a timeline for the Ukrainian war.

The New Zealand-EU trade should be excluded because is this the local trade deal which I don't think the general public even knows or cares about, and should be put on their respected places year pages as it's just useless trivia.

The Tenerife fire should be included because the press is on it and it is devastating Spain. 4me689 (talk) 15:51, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, the New Zealand-EU trade agreement is the most event most worthy of inclusion in the list. New Zealand and the EU together encompass 28 separate countries, accounting for approximately one-sixth of global trade. Considering the impact on the world economy as a whole, I believe this event should be in included on the page. Carter00000 (talk) 16:52, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I would second the inclusion of the NZ-EU deal based on Carter's argument. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:54, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

You should know that treaties between the EU and singular countries (NZ, Fiji, Malawi or San Marino) are common. This is how international diplomacy works since its millenary origin: with treaties whenever possible. No treaty should be included.

The Tenerife fire is not the worst that the Canary Islands, nor Tenerife, nor Spain have ever had. No notorious figures of damages and victims.

Hurricane Hilary has affected several countries, as any other hurricane, storm or wave can affect. Without notorious figures of damages and victims.

The strikes are notorious and this year's have had no international effect.

What a poor Year in Topic it ends up being, sincerely. Not every sine international event should be included. _-_Alsor (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Why do we even keep saying "international"? Seems like that we're going back to "international exclusive" inclusion criterias when we should really be following the due weight policies instead. I don't think there's ever going to be a non-local consensus which endorses the standards that you are alluding to. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I do agree that we no longer have the "international notability" standard here, but even due weight policies has its limits, the 2023 page is not a timeline of the Ukrainian War, nor its a news site. this is just a Wikipedia page for the year 2023, and its supposed to give highlights of the year to readers, not a timeline by timeline of the year. if possible we can always go with the RFC approach for this discussion, which is looking like it's getting close too. 4me689 (talk) 00:18, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Correct. But it does seem like that this is way too loaded of a question for an RFC. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 10:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Then load 2023 in the United States. What's the point of this one, if Year in Topic is already there, if international notability is already irrelevant. This is a real disaster. Manage it yourselves, because I don't want to participate in this if it is neither productive nor of quality. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:31, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I think we all agree year in topic is needed for much more niche events, but for the biggest events in a year in topic, they deserve inclusion here based on due weight per how much coverage they get. Most of the people who concur with my opinion think that year articles are too exclusive, and more so based on arbitrary disaster standards (aka, what I refuted in my international notability essay) rather than coverage. A majority of us, aside from maybe you and John, are generally in favor of coverage based standards, and while I value your opinion on more substance-based events, a rough philosophy I myself agree with, I think you're being too exclusionary. Besides, SAG-AFTRA's and the UAW's international impact, as demonstrated by previous comments, works against you in substance. So would the business buyouts of Splunk by Cisco, and Coach New York (Tapestry) buying Versace and Michael Kors. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:30, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose the removal of the SAG-AFTRA strike and Hurricane Hilary (the reasoning is because it drew so much attention in and confused everybody). DementiaGaming (talk) 22:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

update, an RFC has been made on this situation. 4me689 (talk) 00:51, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the RFC, given that there has been clearly insufficient WP:RFCBEFORE. Carter00000 (talk) 02:26, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay I'll just wait, i'll see how long this discussion keeps going on and how deep the arguments go before starting up the RFC again. 4me689 (talk) 02:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose removal of the SAF-AFTRA strike Hollywood movies are not a local topic. See https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/world/2022/. The foreign revenue for the 200 highest grossing movies of 2022 was large, often exceeding the revenue in the United States. It has received significant coverage from the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/c7p29rdrw9xt. The topic of the effect of AI on jobs also makes it more generally notable. Oppose removal of UAW strike. U.S. car makers' share of overseas markets, as well as domestic markets, is declining but it is not insignificant. Also, Fortune magazine had an article entitled Your American Car Is Probably Not as American as You Think in 2019. It is behind a paywall but the title shows that the strike is of importance to foreign manufacturers and has more than a local scope. The inclusion of Hurricane Hilary can only be justified because it was rare geographically. Thankfully, despite the pre-storm hype, the damage and casualties were not extraordinary in any of the locations that it affected. I am on the fence on this one but lean toward exclusion. The Tenerife wildfire was not extraordinary enough to justify inclusion and has no further implications. The St. Petersburg bombing is too localized an event to include. The target of one of a notorious person's lesser known operatives does not lead to wider implications. Such events are unfortunately common worldwide, as well. The trade agreements are now probably too common to include. There may be more justification for the China-Solomons agreement as China extends its influence to other countries. I am not sure about the data communications agreement because I don't know the terms. If this has implications for privacy or international business, it might merit inclusion. Of course, all are notable enough to have articles. Donner60 (talk) 05:48, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to remove only the St Petersburg bombing and the Tenerife Wildfires

Since these two items are the most commonly scolded for inclusion in the above discussion, why don't we just reach a consensus on removing these two? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 10:15, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Support I support it, as I removed the items originally, including these two. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 21:25, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Support the removal of the entries as proposed. Carter00000 (talk) 16:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I support the removal of these entries. 4me689 (talk) 17:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Should Rupert Murdoch's retirement merit an entry?

Should Rupert Murdoch retiring as chairman of News Corp and Fox merit an entry for this page? I'm looking for a consensus, because I've seen the entry added, then removed, then added--by others, not me. Does Murdoch deserve an entry on this page, or could this just belong on an article about developments in the media industry in 2023 for example?

Murdoch is a powerful individual whose media empire spans Australia, the UK, and the United States, but on the other hand he's not extremely well-known or a politician holding elected office, and his companies have significant competition. He is unique because he & his family own his media companies, while most of his competitors are publicly traded corporations. Murdoch's retirement will also not have a direct impact regarding the content from his companies (i.e. Sky News Australia, the Wall Street Journal, Fox News, the Sun, etc.) and I can't recall similar entries if other billionaires retire from their powerful and well-known companies (i.e. Jeff Bezos retiring as CEO but staying as Chairman of the board of Amazon or Bill Gates stepping down from Microsoft's board). JohnAdams1800 (talk) 04:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Strong include. "Not extremely well-known" - eh? Apart from being the most powerful media magnate in human history? And no, he wasn't "a politician holding elected office", but the influence of his media over elections, and politics in general, has been undeniably huge. Wjfox2005 (talk) 12:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

include, it's a big news story, definitely belongs on this page. 4me689 (talk) 20:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Include. Murdoch was one of the most powerful people on the planet, and his son Lachlan will soon be too now that he's going to own it. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 03:28, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Borderline Exclude because we don't include when other CEOs step down from influential organizations as you mentioned with both Gates and Bezos, and it won't have an effect the day to day of those organizations in any capacity though I am open to inclusion if there are good enough arguments in favor of it. PaulRKil (talk) 14:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Gates and Bezos did not have the same impact that the Murdochs had on world affairs despite running larger companies. This is most likely due to their actions being more focused on their industries, which while presenting exponential benefits to the consumer, did not topple governments or come close to toppling governments the same way the Murdochs did. If you would prefer consistency however I am open to inclusion. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:17, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Its a hard one to gauge for me but you make a good point, Murdoch is probably the most powerful media tycoon since William Randolph Hearst. I'm open to inclusion on that. PaulRKil (talk) 14:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Should the 2023 Hanoi building fire be included?

Should the 2023 Hanoi building fire be included on the page? While the death toll seems to be relatively high for this type of accident, there does not seem to be any further impact, both locally and globally. I would exclude, and removed the entry, but it was later re-added by another editor. Carter00000 (talk) 14:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Not really of note to the wider timeline of events, and has smaller due weight than other events both in impact and coverage. I would advocate for its exclusion for now. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Exclude because it didn't have as much due weight locally, much less globally. It would merit an entry for 2023 in Vietnam or an article about fire safety disasters in 2023 due to its death toll, but not this page. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

exclude, this is not really that known by the General Public. 4me689 (talk) 02:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Should the recent acquisitions by Cisco & Tapestry be included?

I note that user Wjfox2005 has removed two entries relating to recent acquisitions by Cisco & Tapestry.

• September 21 – Cisco announces it will acquire cybersecurity firm Splunk for $28 billion USD, the biggest technology merger of the year.
• August 10 – Tapestry, the holding company of Coach New York and Kate Spade, announces it will acquire Michael Kors' Capri Holdings, which also owns Versace and Jimmy Choo.

The edit summaries for the removals don't seem to cite any consensus or policy which is readily apparent or documented.

• Splunk isn't exactly a household name, and I heard nothing of this merger from any news outlet. So this entry just doesn't seem notable enough.
• Totally irrelevant, boring and non-notable business event

Should these recent acquisitions by Cisco & Tapestry be included? Carter00000 (talk) 14:28, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Exclude. But I'd support their inclusion in 2023 in the United States. As far as I can tell, these events have received little or no coverage internationally (certainly not here in the UK). There might be a case for inclusion of the first one, due to its size. The second one is considerably less at $8.5bn, which I don't view as notable for 2023. Wjfox2005 (talk) 15:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Include. All four of the main entities (acquirer and acquired) involved in the two acquisitions are market leaders in their respective industries. Both industries are likely to be significantly impacted by these acquisitions. Carter00000 (talk) 15:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Exclude. Of little interest to most of the world. Deb (talk) 15:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Strong Include. It's frankly bullcrap to claim that Michael Kors, Coach, and Versace aren't notable based on both the older criteria and new due weight guidelines. Likewise with Cisco and to a lesser but still consequential extent Splunk. I do not think that previous commenters recognize the impact that either mega-merger involves, which while not being as big dollar-wise, absolutely shakes up two of the most prominent industries in the world today: cybersecurity and luxury goods. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

"absolutely shakes up" – how, exactly? Who will it affect? Which countries, or aspects of society, etc.? I mean, maybe it does have an impact, and maybe I'm ignorant, but it wasn't at all clear from the entries you posted. Some additional explanation is needed (but in a concise way), for the layman. Mergers and acquisitions are happening all the time in the world of business, so what makes these events special enough to include on 2023? Wjfox2005 (talk) 06:26, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@Wjfox2005 apologies for the late reply; been working on other things. Tackling Cisco/Splunk first: Well aside from the $28 billion price tag, a number which alone should merit some mention, this is the largest acquisition in the software field as of recent. Cisco and Splunk companies are major in an industry becoming more relevant by the day, especially considering that cybersecurity has been the focus of two of the last four new articles I've written myself (Scattered Spider which hacked MGM and Caesars, as well as the alleged 2023 Sony ransomware hack). Sony needs no elaboration, and Scattered Spider's attack in particular hit nearly every aspect of Las Vegas and everyone who has ever gambled at the two largest casino companies in the world, which is a LOT of people. MGM's hack also brought down BetMGM, which many in the US and the UK use to do their sports betting. All of this highlights the crucialness of the cybersecurity industry which you seem to have played down, and an acquisition of one of the largest companies in this sector is undoubtedly notable in world events. Just because you didn't get a CNN alert on something doesn't mean it's not notable or that notability per the DUE Weight guidelines is fulfilled. An argument which states that cybersecurity doesn't matter is inherently ignorant or against the industry.

As for Tapestry and Capri, the luxury market is generally Eurocentric. The two largest luxury companies are Kering and LVMH, and all are French houses which have started to eat up American companies like Tiffany and Company for LVMH and Maui Jim for Kering. Further consider that these brands are among the most recognized brands in the world; Louis Vuitton per Forbes is more recognizable than nearly every company in the world save for Big Tech companies, Disney, and Coca-Cola. Tapestry, Capri, LVMH and Kering control nearly every major luxury brand in the world today, save for Ralph Lauren, Prada, Rolex and Hermes. According to the SCMP and UBuy, Versace and Michael Kors (Capri) are the 6th and 7th most popular luxury brands in the world, and Coach New York (Tapestry) is the 10th. Anything big involving any of the top luxury brands in the world should be here as well. Again, while your personal opinion on luxury is free to disregard these fashion houses, it's BS to think that the globe at large doesn't focus on these brands.

As an ancillary point, not only are these corporations notable for their industry impact, but also have the eyes of Wall Street and traders worldwide focused on them. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:20, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Well thanks, I appreciate the more detailed explanation. I'm slightly more open to inclusion now. Wjfox2005 (talk) 19:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Exclude. Not every business acquisition/dealing needs to be included and these in particular seem to not impact much of the world outside of these businesses, reflected by the little news coverage. Yeoutie (talk) 14:15, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Exclude these are acquisitions, not mergers, and I don't think they're that notable on a global scale. PaulRKil (talk) 13:27, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Include Tapestry, Exclude Cisco, Versace is a big name company which is under the ownership of Tapestry, so Tapestry should be included, Exclude the Cisco acquisition because outside of the business world this was not covered that much, im open to maybe discussing inclusion requirements for business buyouts/acquisitions in a future discussion or RFC. 4me689 (talk) 04:53, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Should the 2023 Mastung bombing be included?

I note that user JohnAdams1800 has removed an entry relating to the 2023 Mastung bombing.

• September 29 – Islamic terrorists detonate a bomb during a Mawlid festival in Mastung, Pakistan, resulting in the death of over 52 people and 70 injuries.

The edit summaries for the removals don't seem to cite any consensus or policy which is readily apparent or documented.

• The September 29th Pakistan bombing had a significant death toll and importance (it occurred on an Islamic holiday), but doesn't have enough importance internationally for this article.

Should this event be included? Carter00000 (talk) 17:58, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

• Include, given the high death toll, the fact that it happened during a national festival, and the nature of the event Carter00000 (talk) 18:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Exclude, as I removed it because such events routinely and tragically occur around the world, including on days of national importance and religious significance. This event merits an entry in the article about 2023 in Pakistan, but not this page because it has smaller due weight than other events in coverage and impact. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 21:06, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Borderline exclude, Yes true that this does have a big death toll, but I don't know if the general public knows it that much outside of the area affected, tho I am open to changing my mind if a good argument is told. 4me689 (talk) 02:17, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Borderline include. There aren't policies or guidelines aside from consensus which support exclusion here. This is a very high death toll compared to most other events, so I would say that the due weight guidelines for now would support a weak argument for inclusion. I would be open to changing my opinion if a better argument for exclusion can be made. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment. Any appetite for combining the Mustung and Hangu mosque bombing in the same entry as they both occurred on the same day in Pakistan and both had religious undertones? Would perhaps solidify the notability of these religious terror attacks. Example: September 29 – During Mawlid celebrations in Pakistan, terrorists bomb a festival and a mosque, resulting in the deaths of 65 people. Yeoutie (talk) 16:59, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Nobel Prizes Rationale

I'm curious on the thoughts in adding Nobel Prizes Rationale to the the Nobel Prizes section which I just did here. In my opinion it's an improvement to the section because it gives you the reason why they were nominated in the first place giving more context to that area. I'm thinking of putting this on WP years talk, but I don't feel like putting that on there yet. 4me689 (talk) 21:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Should 100% be included. However, now that you've started this discussion here, I suspect we'll see a repeat of previous years' debates on whether Nobel Prizes should even be mentioned at all on year pages. Sadly there seems to be a small, hardcore minority of anti-intellectual editors, ferociously opposed to their inclusion (perhaps they just hate science, humanity, and progress?). I hope the sensible majority of people resist these efforts to dumb-down the page again. Wjfox2005 (talk) 06:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

this section isn't about the whole Nobel Peace Prize section, just on people's thoughts on adding the Rationale to the section. 4me689 (talk) 06:41, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Put them in their own section. They can fit on a timeline, but given that it's gonna look like October 1 is one prize, October 2 is another, and October 3 is third. I would suggest that we even consider putting awards separated from the heading. Think like this:

Awards
Academics

• Nobel Physics Prize: Reichstag climbing-Spider-men
• Nobel Peace Price: Sam the WikiGnome

Just an idea. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Final image for the collage

October is here, and we have already come to the consensus for seven images on the 2023 collage, as you can see on the edit page. There have been two major conflicts within the past month that are both candidates for the eighth picture on the collage, both with major implications. The first one is the September Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. It only resulted in the death of around 440 people and only persisted for one day, but ended in the inception of major protests within Armenia, the egression of over 100,000 Armenians (one-third of the population of the region) from Nagorno-Karabakh, and the partition of the region unto Azerbaijan.

The second preference is the Gaza-Israeli engagement. As of this post, it has started today, but has already ended the lives of of 530 people and may amplify into a full-scale war within the next few days. However, unlike the Nagorno-Karabakh war, there is less peril or certainty for genocide like the Nagorno-Karabakh situation.

Both regions have a lengthy, significant history to them, and both are favorable for displaying on the collage. There is also two months left to the year, so if another major world event transpires, we may have to remove an event. I added the Hawai'i wildfires as a image to the collage, so I affirm that I am entitled to say that it might be a candidate for not being critical enough to be on the collage if such a major event happens. Let me know what you guys think. DementiaGaming (talk) 00:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, because it likely ended the conflict (1988-2023) after the 2023 Azerbaijan offensive and the dissolution of the Republic of Artsakh on January 1, 2024. It's very specific to this year and had a major impact with the exodus of over 100,000 Armenians and the deaths of about 440 people.

The Gaza-Israeli conflict is part of the wider Arab-Israeli conflict, which has been ongoing since 1948 and has its own long and detailed articles. I don't think it work well for a collage for just 2023, though it is the first time Israel has declared war since the 1973 Yom-Kippur War. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 20:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

What if the conflict becomes a major war that results in thousands of deaths DementiaGaming (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I would say the Gaza Israel conflict. While it is part of an existing conflict, this is a major escalation and has resulted in the first declaration of war by Israel in fifty years. As I’m typing this, Israel is also seemingly launching an offensive against Hezbollah in Lebanon. To John Adams’ point, the same could be said about the Azerbaijan conflict as it’s part of a decades long post soviet conflict. This is definitely a larger global event. PaulRKil (talk) 14:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I agree. Hundreds of innocent women and children are being massacred by Hamas. DementiaGaming (talk) 03:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Historical accuracy on this page

Alright, so the news about Israel formally declaring war on Hamas on October 8th has now been merged back in with the news of the initial Hamas attack on October 7th two times now. This is clearly misleading readers. You wouldn't change the specific dates of declarations of war against Germany and Japan in WW2, right? I see no valid reason to merge the two items, one is the attack and the other is a formal declaration of war in response. Two seperate events on seperate days. How is this even an issue? GWA88 (talk) 05:53, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Keep Merge. Given that the two events are directly connected to each other, with one being the direct consequence of the other. The events also occurred in a very short time frame, on consecutive days, within less then 48 hours. The general practice on this page is to reduce the number of entries, given the wide range of events the page potentially covers, so a split in the entries which you propose is not normally done. If needed, the sperate dating can be noted in the merged entry.

It is also suggested you moderate your tone. Accusations of clearly misleading readers, issues with historical accuracy, and asking How is this even an issue?, are both unhelpful and uncivil, especially when you know consensus is against you. Carter00000 (talk) 06:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no consensus established yet. That's why I've started the discussion. GWA88 (talk) 06:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

When you are reverted twice by two different people, you can consider the general consensus to be against you, unless a formal discussion results in a different outcome. You may review WP:EDITCON for more information. Carter00000 (talk) 06:44, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Note. It should be noted that even if the events occurred in a very short time frame, on consecutive days, within less then 48 hours, that's still seperate events on seperate days. General practice or not the fact remains that the declaration of war by the Security Cabinet of Israel happened on October 8th, 2023. GWA88 (talk) 07:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)