Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Poeticbent (talk | contribs) at 03:24, 6 May 2018 (→‎April 25, 2018: BLP DS Alert). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Memoirs published in book-forms are not scholarly enough

There's an ongoing problem stretching over a number of articles about Polish-Jewish history, i.e.: personal memoirs of Holocaust survivors, so eagerly quoted here by some editors. The diaries often contradict the evidence collected over the following decades by professional historians. Aside from the detailed description of individual experiences—which can be considered accurate—personal memoirs written by contemporaries usually include a barrage of normative opinions written without any historical perspective. It looks like, each and every one of those articles featuring quote-farms of normative statements needs to be dealt with separately.

Take as an example, the following Google copy-paste job in the article Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust.[1] Polish-Jewish contemporary historian, Emanuel Ringelblum, wrote in 1943, clearly unaware of how little was being done in the West to save the Jews from the Holocaust: "…Polish people. It is they whom we blame for the fact that Poland has not taken an equal place alongside the Western European countries in rescuing Jews." Ringelblum surviving in the Warsaw Ghetto could not have been aware of what the West was doing, nor did he know about the clandestine work of people such as Jerzy Jan Lerski or Stefan Korboński. Korboński “sent many telegrams to London to alert the world about the destruction of the Jews, telling that 700 daily were being loaded into freight wagons and dispatched to Treblinka where they were all gassed. But the BBC was silent, nobody abroad believed it: neither the [Western] Jews nor the British authorities. London was flooded with telegrams about Jews being brought from the Balkans, Hungary, Holland to Auschwitz. Even Jews being thus transported from abroad in trains with suitcases and valuables and told by Germans that they are transferred for work, did not believe when some Polish railway men whispered them the truth.” (Anna Poray) Ringelblum’s statement therefore, is an expression of his depth of despair. It is NOT a statement of historical fact and therefore cannot be quoted in Wikipedia for informational value. But it is...without as much as a footnote.

There are other, endless examples of how selected quotes from individual memoirs are being taken out of personal context and copy-pasted here for the shock value of their normative statements. I wrote about this already during the latest ArbCom case against Piotrus. Unfortunately, I do not have time to go over every article featuring these sort of misrepresentations of facts. The restoration of balance is going to take joint effort and so, I’d like to appeal to editors interested in this subject to please consider helping out as part of your New Year’s resolution maybe. Thanks. --Poeticbent talk 21:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In general, I agree with Poeticbent's caution here with respect to the uses he describes--but the acceptance here would depend upon the scholarly opinion about the book--some may be suitable. I also think that possibly the details of what happened in an individual town might be reliable, depending again on the memoir. I'm concerned that we do not eliminate entirely the use of the Memorial Books. They of course need to be used with the very great care we do for primary sources. DGG (talk) 14:23, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

www.zyciezazycie.pl

http://www.zyciezazycie.pl/ is a modern and probably reliable source, unfortunately only in Polish. Xx236 (talk) 13:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

can someone tell us its sponsorship & some background about it? DGG (talk) 14:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Zrealizowano przez NCK ze środków Ministerstwa Kultury i Dziedzictwa Narodowego w ramach programu Patriotyzm Jutra oraz przez IPN w ramach projektu "Polacy Ratujacy Żydów": created by pl:Narodowe Centrum Kultury (National Center of Culture, a governmental organization) with the aid of Ministry of Culture and National Heritage in the framework of the Patriotism of Tommorow program and with the aid of the Institute of National Rememberance in the framework of the "Poles Saving the Jews" programme. Indeed, seems reliable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:44, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with File:Ac.karski2.jpg

The image File:Ac.karski2.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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Ringelblum

Why is Ringelblum's notable? At best, they should be moved to "Individual_testimonies" section. I do also recall that his views were discussed by scholars (Piotrowski? Paulsson? One of those, at least...) who pointed out that he made a lot of guesses, assumptions and comparisons, while in fact limited in his actual knowledge to his personal experiences of hidding in Warsaw (and do remember he died before the end of the war, so he certainly didn't see the big picture - despite making grandiose claims about Polish nation and such).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note "Individual_testimonies" section is a bad idea if it will be continued the way it is written so far. Testimonies from the Yizkor book for single shtetl would exceed not only this section, but the whole article dozens of times. M0RD00R (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I concur and suggest creating an article on wikiquote or wikisource for that content.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:36, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong Stara Huta

Wrong Szumsk, too.Xx236 (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC) The same fate met the villagers of Stara Huta near Szumsk.[50] - the quoted text may inform about the death of the Jews only. Xx236 (talk) 09:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who were the Poles

The article does not define who were the Poles. If you don't define your words, you may prove anything.Xx236 (talk) 08:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Go to geography lessons to know who is "Pole"! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.9.123.24 (talk) 17:38, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Firstly,

  1. The lead is too short
  2. The lead already raises a few red flags for POV - "extraordinarily cruel" is the first one. Secondly, wrt Nazis, if helping Jews is a capital crime, were those kind charitable people executed after a trial for this ridiculous law, because if they got a trial, then one has to use "executed for ...." rather than murdered.
  3. Hmmm, some really sloppy stuff. Lots of uncleaned up footnotes and punctutation ".[45]." and what have you.
  4. Footnotes, books written out in full multiple times instead of being moved once to a booklist. Also, what about books with no page numbers to specify the exact location of the information
  5. Unfromatted URL refs...

YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 06:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is that mandatory. A lot of reviews of mine were not. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
-... people executed after a trial for this ridiculous law, because if they got a trial, then one has to use executed for .... rather than murdered - there was no trial, people were simply murdered on the spot.--Jacurek (talk) 12:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Right, just because it was made "officially" against the law does not imply that those who were caught helping automatically got the right to due process, or a right of appeal or any other right. The law basically meant that they could be shot on the spot (i.e. murdered) and whoever did it was immune from any kind of punishment.radek (talk)
  • This article was a subject of a fierce edit war conducted by a banned user, and—as is the case with all such articles—it was basically ripped apart with a number of paragraphs permanently disfigured with citations promoting ethnic strife and racial hatred between Polish nationals, which were reverted back and forth endless times. As a result, there’s a lot of repetition and deficient discourse in it. I see this GA review as the opportunity to bring this article back to acceptable standards. However, more detailed analysis would be much appreciated, because working on specifics is the only way to avoid further flare-up between various camps. --Poeticbent talk 19:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is it going to be revamped then? The references are still all over the place and the prose is still quite poor in some places, I see some of the edits have noted this in the edit summery. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 05:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've failed it/ YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 23:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've rewritten the lead; hopefully now it is more comprehensive and neutral.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.151.115.9 (talk) 06:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can this be compacted ?

Can this be compacted into clean lines with references instead of "According to" or Paulsson said" or "Paldiel writes" etc.?

According to one reviewer of Paulsson, with regard to the extortionists, "a single hooligan or blackmailer could wreak severe damage on Jews in hiding, but it took the silent passivity of a whole crowd to maintain their cover."[23] He also notes that "hunters" were outnumbered by "helpers" by a ratio of one to 20 or 30.[8]. According to Lukas the number of renegades who blackmailed and denounced Jews and their Polish protectors probably did not number more than 1000 individuals in Warsaw (or less than one hundredth of one percent of the city's population). [10] German propaganda antisemitic poster, written in polish language. Says: "Jews-sucking louse-typhus", hanged out on Polish streets in 1942, German-occupied PolandMichael C. Steinlauf writes that even more than the fear of the death penalty for aiding the Jews, the major obstacle limiting Polish aid to Jews was popular attitudes towards Jews, which made individuals uncertain of what their neighbors' responses would be to attempts at assistance.[27] Steinlauf however notes that despite these uncertainties, Jews were helped by thousands of individual Poles throughout the country. He writes that "not the informing or the indifference, but the existence of such individuals is one of the most remarkable features of Polish-Jewish relations during the Holocaust."[27] Nonetheless, number of authors have noted the negative effects of the significant hostility towards Jews by Poles in the general population and within the the organizations and parties that comprised the Polish underground, the majority of which favored a policy of eventual removal of Jews from Poland.[28][29][30][31] The 1980s saw the publication of scholarly studies that challenged earlier assumptions about Polish behavior during the war, amongst these were beliefs that a large segment of the Polish population provided assistance to Jews during the war; that the death penalty for aiding Jews was the main obstacle to providing aid, and that anti-semitic attitudes had been marginal in Poland during the war and remain so.[32] Alina Cala's study of Jews in Polish folk culture argued for a persistence of traditional Christian antisemitism, including the belief in the blood libel claim against Jews. Johnathan Zimmerman wrote that Cala's findings on attitudes of Polish peasantry during and after the war confirm what he describes as a growing consensus among scholars that an active stance by Poles towards Jews during the Holocaust either to assist or to betray was a marginal phenomena. Cala describes this as an indifference resulting from antisemitic propaganda both before and during the war, as well as the persistence of religious antisemitism.[33][34] Nechama Tec, who herself survived the war aided by a group of Catholic Poles,[35] noted that Polish rescuers worked within an environment that was hostile to Jews and unfavorable to their protection, in which rescuers feared both the disapproval of their neighbors and reprisals that such disapproval might bring.[36] Tec also noted that Jews, for many complex and practical reasons, were not always prepared to accept assistance that was available to them.[37] Some Jews did not expect help from their neighbors — in fact, some were surprised to have been aided by people who expressed antisemitic attitudes before the war.[38][8] According to Mordecai Paldiel, former Director of the Department of the Righteous at Yad Vashem, Polish landscape at the time contained "a widespread antisemitism that militated against a serious attempt to render succor to the afflicted Jews — difficult as such undertakings would have been in light of the Nazi terror machine which operated with a special brutality against the Polish population." Paldiel writes that the notion that Poles stood only to profit at the disappearance of Jews was "commonplace," and that a feeling of both relief at the disappearance of Polish Jewry was as widespread as the revulsion at the methods employed by the Nazis.[39] A Yad Vashem study of Żegota cites an interview in which the organization's Deputy Chairman, Tadeusz Rek, reports to the representatives of the Polish government-in-exile "that the overwhelming majority of Polish society are hostile toward those extending relief [to the Jews]."[40] Paulsson and Pawlikowski write that overall, such negative attitudes were not a major factor impeding the survival of sheltered Jews, or the work of the rescue organization Żegota.[38][8]''

Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 04:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When experts disagree with one another, in the interest of NPOV we usually attribute the opinions. One way to clean it up a bit might be to summarize the various viewpoints and attribute them collectively: "Some historians, including A, B, and C, say this.[1][2][3] Other historians, including X, Y, and Z, say that.[4][5][6]" — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two notable collaborationist organisations missing in difficulties

Group 13 and Żagiew aren't mentioned as far as I can see in the text. Those were organizations who had hindering of Jews being rescued as one of their main goals. They infiltrated Polish and Jewish resistance and tried to find out who hid Jews to report them to German authorities. They should be mentioned in difficulties section.--Molobo (talk) 17:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

General cleanup of introduction by Jjaggeropen

I've heavily edited the first two paragraphs. The first graph didn't even mention rescue of Jews by Poles, it only mentioned the Nazi invasion and the Holocaust. I had to change that. The second graph was horribly written, it seems by people for whom English is not their native language. We do need to start the 2nd graph with the data, to give the reader immediate size and scope of what we are talking about. That is why I moved the Righteous data and the upper estimate higher. The AK is now being called the biggest resistance movement of WW2, not one of the biggest - see WP article on it. I have also edited the graph to be more concise and readable for Eng Lang WP users. Please discuss with me before changing it.

Jacurek: I really appreciate your input here but please add what you have to say on this talk page first. With respect, your knowledge of the subject is excellent, but your use of English reads like English is your second language - and it is sometimes difficult for Eng Lang readers to understand. If you would give us the honour of sharing your knowledge here first, give me content here on the talk page, and I would be happy to turn it into native English text.

Thanks all Jjaggeropen (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the offer, but I will be fine. You are always welcome to correct things within the articles.--Jacurek (talk) 15:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not happy with the sentence: "Throughout the occupation of Poland (1939–1945), many Polish gentiles made significant efforts to save Jews from the German Nazis." To my mind "significant efforts" is completely inaccurate, and in English suggests "effort" but not "achievement". The Yad Vashem data shows the biggest number of rescuers were Polish gentiles. The figure of 3 million from Lukas dwarves anything else. Every time I write it in the opening sentence, I get cut and accused of POV or edit warring. I'm going to take a break and see if others can take a look at this. Jjaggeropen (talk) 07:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you. The Righteous Among Nations citation is one of many factual sources that could be used in the first line of the article to assert that more Poles rescued Jews than any other nation did. Why don't you go ahead at add that sourcing. There is nothing controversial , nor POV, about you saying Poles did more than any other nation did to rescue Jews. I guess counter-arguments could be made that some Poles hindered the rescue of Jews, so it might be odd to read that Poles did more to rescue Jews - but still, you are correct. Another argument may be that the Soviets pushed back the Nazis in 44/45 and therefore stopped the Final Solution and may have effectively saved more Jews than the Poles ever could have. But it wasn't ever a primary Soviet objective to save Jews, whereas it was e.g. Zegota's reason d'etre. Mranistire (talk) 09:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The statement that "Polish gentiles did more than any other nation to rescue Jews from the Nazis" is a subjective judgment and hence unencyclopedic. It is a fact that Poland has more Righteous, but did Poles do more than, say, the Danes, who rescued 99% of the Danish Jewish population? Again, a subjective judgment. Let's stick to facts. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, lets stick to the facts. How many Danish Jews were there? What is 99% of that? How does the answer compare to the estimate of 450,000 Jews saved by Polish gentiles? What was the population of Denmark compared to the population of Poland? If as Paulsson and Lukas say, the majority of Poles were passively protective, how does 'the majority of Poles' compared to 'the population of Denmark' ? And how about Evidence indicates more Poles were rescuers of Jews than people from any other nation? Mranistire (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fact I hope we can agree on. :-) — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Malik, I looked up the facts. Please see Rescue of the Danish Jews. The Danes saved 8000 Jews. Polish gentiles saved around 450,000 Jews according to recent scholarship, eg Lukas. Do you think the rescue of the 8000 Danish Jews should really eliminate the assertion about 'Polish gentiles did more than any other nation'? I think I have to pass the ball back to you and ask you to find some facts that indicate Polish gentiles shouldn't take pride of place. Maybe Polish gentiles did - in fact - do more than any other nation? If so then we should have that in the first paragraph as important size and scope / measurement of what we are talking about in this article. Mranistire (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that "doing more" involves a subjective judgment. The number of Jews saved or the percentage or Jews saved—why is one a better indicator than the other of how much was done? Let the facts speak for themselves. There were more Polish rescuers. To say more than that is, in my view, WP:OR unless a reliable source says it. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The other reason why so many Poles were willing to hide Jews is that many were simply hiding their friends. Poles also had the most opportunities to help. After all that were the Jews lived...not in Island. However, did Poles as a nation passed the test and did the most to help the Jews?? Maybe... but I would not be so sure about that..there were many nasty Poles who did just opposite of helping. We don't need to include "more than any other nation" because this opinion is biased and unencyclopedic.--Jacurek (talk) 21:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

grammar/style, to Mranistire

Mranistire, I think Jacurek's "Throughout the occupation of Poland (1939–1945), many Polish gentiles at great risk to themselves and their families, rescued Jews from the German Nazis." is better grammatically than your "Throughout the occupation of Poland (1939–1945), many Polish gentiles rescued Jews from the German Nazis, at great risk to themselves and their families." The reason for this is that the second version can be read as suggesting that the "great risk to themselves and their families" was to German Nazis, rather than (the subject) "Polish gentiles". The second version, with a bit of a stretch could also be read that the "great risk..." was to the "rescued Jews", though that's more implausible.

Basically, in well written English it should be clear which is the subject and which is the predicate, and the original version does a better job of that.radek (talk) 19:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The only problem with Jacurek's version was the punctuation. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
About English grammar: I am referring to Polish Jewish but also ethnic Poles, were hampered by some of the most extreme conditions versus Polish Jews and gentiles were hampered by some of the most extreme conditions. In the first sentence the missing comma can be solved by adding '-' signs or moving the clause. But anyway I'd say the style of the opening sentence should be MUCH more concise, it should me an introductory statement without detail or qualification, as that all comes in the article. Mranistire (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mranistire, I would appreciate your critical comments if they were at least a little constructive. Sadly this: "Unfortunately this process has turned into a private English lesson for Jacurek" is not only unhelpful but it is also very rude. Please also keep in mind that nobody has a monopoly on being perfect in English grammar...not even you.--Jacurek (talk) 20:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lehi

I doubt that the pre-War Polish government trained the Palestinian guerilla group Lehi, which was formed in 1940. See that group's article for details. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 17:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Hello Malik and thanks for your comment. Polish support for Lehi is a proven fact with citations in the WP: Lehi item. I 100% agree that we must not digress from the main theme of this article, but would suggest that a brief mention of Polish support for pre-war Jewish paramilitaries is useful, as it explains Polish policy: gentile support for wartime Jewish partisans wasn't an ad hoc or knee jerk, it represented continuity of Polish policy. In fact we could add Irgun and others to Lehi, but for sake of keeping the article's focus I've stuck to one. Its all in WP: Lehi, you'll see this if you scroll down to the 'Evolution and tactics of the organization' section FYI:

"Some of Lehi members had undergone a military training by instructors of Polish Armed Forces in 1938-1939, months before World War II began. In Zofiówka of Wołyń, Podębin near Łódź and forests around Andrychów, they were taught how to use explosives. One of them reported later:

Poles treated terrorism as a science. We have mastered mathematical principles of demolishing constructions made of concrete, iron, wood, bricks and dirt.[14]

Later on, Polish government secretly equipped Lehi members with over 20 000 guns and allowed them to escape to Palestine using Polish airlines and ships.

The group was initially unsuccessful. Early attempts to raise funds through criminal activities, including a bank robbery in Tel Aviv in 1940 and another robbery on 9 January 1942 in which Jewish passers-by were killed, brought about the temporary collapse of the group, and an attempt to assassinate the head of the British secret police in Lod in which three police personnel were killed, two Jewish and one British, elicited a severe response from the British and Jewish establishments who collaborated in an effort to eliminate the underground organisation." Chumchum7 (talk) 21:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's a big difference between "some Lehi members" being trained by the Polish army before the War, and the statement that the "pre-war Polish government armed and trained Jewish paramilitary groups such as Lehi". Since Lehi didn't exist until 1940, it is impossible that the pre-War government could have armed and trained Lehi.
Also, please read WP:LEDE. The lede is supposed to summarize an article. It's not intended to be an essay that introduces facts and theories not discussed in the article. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Malik. Properly phrased (without exaggeration) the subject matter can and should be inserted somewhere in the article text but is to detailed for the lead.radek (talk) 04:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Żagiew and Group 13

In my opinion Jewish collaborationist organizations such as Żagiew and Group 13 should not be in this article at all and for sure not in the lead. Average Polish rescuer did not face threats from Zagiew or Group 13. These organizations did not have country wide reach. They were small and the Germans created them (among other things) to penetrate wings of the Polish Underground involved in the rescue of Jews. Szmalcowniks and blackmailers on the other hand were everywhere. Small towns, big town, cities and villages. The rescuer never even knew if his neighbor would denounce him simply because of fear of being shot by the Gestapo. I will remove Żagiew and Group 13 for now but if you insist on having them here, please do it somewhere within the article and not in the lead. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 18:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely don't belong in the lede. A sentence somewhere in the text may be appropriate as long as it's kept in proportion.radek (talk) 18:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree per Radek. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you guys.--Jacurek (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From Chumchum7 Talk

Re: your blanket revert

Chumchum7, you're a reasonable person and a good writer. I'm not going to edit-war with you, but please. Did you actually read carefully what I changed, before your reverted my edit? [2] You know very well, that there was a lot of text added to the article gradually in recent time without discussion and consensus, contrary to your edit summary. New additions were made also by you. However, if you read the first few paragraphs without prejudice, you will notice, that they no longer follow any internal logic. That's why I rearranged them. I placed the new content according to subject matter. In the first paragraph, only what relates directly to article title. In the second and third paragraph, I put the remaining content according to similar theme. Nothing was removed. Would you accept my improvements, if I made several smaller edits instead, only one sentence at a time to allow for greater visibility? The article lede reads like a mess. So please, do something. --Matalea (talk) 16:54, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely, small sequential edits are better. But your write-through should be posted on the Talk page first, where you can try to gain WP:CONSENSUS and practical criticism, before dropping it on the article page. It's a no-brainer. Chumchum7 (talk) 20:34, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 07:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Allow me to make a series of small sequential edits leading to the same end result and see if any of them would draw your attention separately. -- Matalea (talk) 15:40, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The risk of survival Wspólny los by Mateusz Szpytma

http://www.petlaczasu.pl/risk-survival-los/b05043313 Xx236 (talk) 06:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Partial list of communities is still unsourced

The list should be removed or sourced. Xx236 (talk) 06:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • You're more than welcome to do it, and I'm sure, everybody who ever worked on this article will appreciate your effort. Please click on each external link and read it. When you come across a name of a village from the partial list in our article, put a <ref name=... /> next to it. It'll take time, but it's doable. Thanks. -- Matalea (talk) 02:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any such list should be quoted from one source. A free selection of geographical names doesn't have any value, it's OR. There were hundreds of villages where Jews were helped and hundreds (frequently the same), where they were robbed or delivered to the Germans. Warsaw was the place of the biggest help actions and at the same tome of the biggest tragedies and crimes. Xx236 (talk) 06:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you give an example of a Wikipedia list quoted from a single source? The lists of names (people, toponyms, buildings, etc.) have multiple sources in most Wikipedia categories. Take a look at the List of Nazi concentration camps (sourced), or the List of Righteous among the Nations by country (nor sourced) similar to Soviet deportations. The value of WP lists however is undeniable, because they allow readers to conduct further research. -- Matalea (talk) 14:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The List of Nazi concentration camps informs: "The data in this table is mainly from Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against the Jews". Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry I can see only a list of accidental names of places, without any rule defining the list, without sources. Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The List of Nazi concentration camps is a sad joke, 6 000 prisoners in Auschwitz-Birkenau, see List of subcamps of Auschwitz.Xx236 (talk) 11:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming we found a source supporting the list then an editor could then complain that we were allowing that one source to bias the article and ask for multiple sources. Personally I don’t see a problem with multiple sources (per Matalea argument it is done elsewhere) BUT agree there needs to be a rule for inclusion (per Xx236 argument). Could we agree that for inclusion that 25 individuals or 5% of the population (whichever is greater) must have aided Jews? Then we agree editors have 3 months to find sources for each entry or it will be removed. Jniech (talk) 15:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary decisions outside of WP policy guidelines should be treated with caution. The subject area of this article is already well-defined. By the same token, there are articles with inadequate list of resources, such as the Jewish ghettos in Europe listing only two (2) ghettos in section Poland. -- Matalea (talk) 17:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum. I just rewrote the Jewish ghettos in Europe article. I moved all info relating to Poland to only one section with a subsection called the Holocaust in Poland. I added several new references. The article is no longer misleading, even though it needs additional citations for verification of data about other countries. -- Matalea (talk) 01:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the source of the Tuliszków story? The first ghetto was formed in Piotrków Trybunalski. http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_HOLocaust/chronology/1939-1941/1939/chronology_1939_16.htmlXx236 (talk) 08:14, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Check it out. -- Matalea (talk) 19:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment copied from GA review

An editor made the following comment at Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust/GA1. I'm copying it here because that GA review is closed. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The following paragraph makes it seem like the only people in Poland NOT collaborating with the Nazis in persecuting Jews were the Poles. Hooray, the Poles are the only nation on earth that cannot be corrupted? You must be kidding? The extremely wide spectrum of the Polish response went no further than indifference? Really? And what about scapegoating the ethnic Ukranians for what went on? Apalling! Can someone sensible edit this please?
"The response of the Polish majority to the Jewish Holocaust covered an extremely wide spectrum, often ranging from acts of altruism at the risk of endangering their own and their families’ lives, through compassion, to passivity and indifference. Polish rescuers also faced threats from unsympathetic neighbours, the Volksdeutsche[7] and the ethnic Ukrainian pro-Nazis,[8] as well as blackmailers called szmalcowniks and (as in Warsaw) from Jewish collaborators such as Żagiew or Group 13. There were cases of denunciation or even participation in massacres of Jewish inhabitants" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frankfilardo (talk • contribs) 23:28, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dear User:Frankfilardo. You seem to know more about Poland's WWII history, than anybody else around here. Have you written a book? If so, please share it with us; the truth must be told. And, check the title of this article for more clues. --- Veyron EB (talk) 06:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war

I've just asked FPS to take a look at the recent IP edit warring here, so its now an admin-level issue. I've warned said IP, to no avail. Ironically, it appears that the IP has misunderstood the source they are using, Yad Vashem, to try to prove the point that Poles were largely anti-Semitic. In the quote, Yad Vashem is in fact saying that the Polish Righteous data is a minimum because it is based on proven cases with exhaustive evidence and witness testimony only; Yad Yashem is not saying here that the 6000+ should be considered a small amount. This mistake suggests the IP is not an expert on the subject and is coming in with a preconceived agenda and assuming that secondary sources will support it. In principle, there's no problem mentioning Polish anti-Semitism in this article; there is a problem with an opinionated editor wanting to prove their personal point, without considerate discussion for the other editors around them, and presuming to speak for the Jewish people while they're at it. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:51, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Same/overspill trouble at Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 -Chumchum7 (talk) 11:29, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Przemysl history

Number of people who were killed for helping Jews in Przemyśl (and close area) is certainly not of 568. There are no people excluding Kurpiel family from Tarnawce who have been awarded post mortem Righteous among the Nations. There are several memory sites of executions in Przemyśl. None of them is dedicated to people who were saving Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marknut (talk • contribs) 14:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources? The current statement in the article does have a source, although it is a dead link.VolunteerMarek 16:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Piotr Jaroszczak in his history on his websites does not have any sources and any names. Citing such man, who says that Jan Nowak Jeziorański worked for German nazist is just stupid (see www.naszawitryna.pl/jedwabne_311.html). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marknut (talk • contribs) 23:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Piotr Jaroszczak is also known of such opinions like: "carrying out its messianism, still assemble in many different points of the globe a new wars, conflicts and holocausts, bringing them huge financial gains, because their interest has to spin" (about Jews). http://www.kki.pl/piojar/polemiki/holocaust/odp_1.html
My suggestion is to remove such "credible" source.Marknut (talk) 09:56, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Partial list of communities

NOTE I've moved this from the main article since it isn't supported by the ref and is full of inaccuracies and ambiguous place names. --JaGatalk 09:16, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Below is the partial list of Polish communities engaged in collective rescuing of Jews during the Holocaust, as described in literature mentioned. Spelling of some of the names of settlements and counties has been revised in accordance with the currently available geodata. Occasionally, the below links lead to disambiguation pages listing villages known by the same name in the same geographical area of prewar and postwar Poland.

For list of settlements and their gminas in alphabetical order, please use table-sort buttons.

Settlement Area Settlement Area Settlement Area
Białka Parczew Sterdyń Sokołów Bolimów Skierniewice
Główne Sierpc Ozorków Sierpc Borkowo Sierpc
Dąbrowica Ulanów Głupianka Otwock Osiny Łuków
Wola Przybysławska Lublin Jabłoń Parczew Kańczuga Przeworsk
Czajków Staszów Zdziebórz Wyszków Parczew Ostrów
Rudka Lublin Jedlanka Łuków Makoszka Dębowa Kłoda
Tyśmienica Gmina Parczew Bójki Ostrów Niedźwiada Opole
Mętów Głusk Gołąbki Lublin Króle Duże Ostrów
Dąbrowa Rzeczycka Stalowa Wola Kępa Rzeczycka Stalowa Wola Wola Rzeczycka Stalowa Wola
Rzeczyca Okrągła Stalowa Wola Głuchów Łańcut Mulawicze Bielsk
Drzewica Opoczno Ceranów Sokołów Poniatowa Lublin
Bielsko Upper Silesia Dziurków Radom Olsztyn Village Częstochowa
Korzeniówka Grójec Łaskarzew Garwolin Sobolew Garwolin
Wilga Łowicz Siedlce Masovia Wielki Las Pisz
Lendowo Brańsk Teresin[disambiguation needed] Chełm Powiłańce Lida
Kajetanówka Lublin Ożarów Kielce Ignaców Lublin
Szymanów[disambiguation needed] Masovia Grodzisko Leżajsk Białka Parczew
Sterdyń Sokołów Okopy Kisorycze Rokitno Wołyń
Tarnopol Tarnopol V. Berecz † Wołyń Huta Werchoducka † Złoczów
Zahorze † Łachwa Dubeczno Lublin Kozaki .
Stara Kubra Radziłów Bełżec Tomaszów Sobibór Włodawa
Treblinka Małkinia Serock Warsaw Sikórz Płock
Urzędów Lublin Milanówek Warsaw Mielec Rzeszów
Goszcza Miechów Gawłuszowice Mielec Chrząstów Mielec
Majdan Nepryski Bełżec Głowaczowa Dębica Grodzisk[disambiguation needed] Warsaw
Wołomin Warsaw Zabłudów Białystok Nowosady Brańsk
Baranki Białystok Araje Białystok Zawyki Białystok
Niedźwiada Opole Lubelskie Runów Grójec Gorzyce Dąbrowa
Przydonica Nowy Sącz Ubiad Nowy Sącz Klimkówka Nowy Sącz
Jelna Gródek Słowikowa Nowy Sącz Librantowa Chełmiec
Piszczac Biała Podlaska Kolonia Dworska Piszczac Rożki Krasnystaw
Zamość Lublin Radzymin Wołomin Otwock Warsaw
Miedzeszyn Warsaw Praga Warsaw Żoliborz Warsaw
Obórki Brodnica Woronówka † Ludwipol Kościejów Bełżec
Kulików Bełżec Bar Gródek Zawołocze † Ludwipol
Bereźne Kostopol Korzec Wołyń Stara Huta Szumsk
Kosów[disambiguation needed] Kołomyja Międzyrzec Równe Niżniów Czortków
Ułaszkowce Czortków Hanaczów Lwów Ostra Mogiła † Skałat
Konińsk † Sarny Borowskie Budki Kisorycze Świnarzyn Dominopol
Bereźne Kostopol Janówka[disambiguation needed] Tarnopol Wólka Kotowska Łuck
Huta Stepańska Wołyń Przebraże Wołyń Zdołbunów Bereźne
Huta Brodzka † Lwów Adamy † Lwów Netreba † Wołyń
Karaczun † Kostopol Złoczów Rakowiec[disambiguation needed] Pańska Dolina Wołyń
Kurdybań Wołyń Bortnica † Wołyń Zameczek[disambiguation needed] Wilno
Żeniówka Wołyń Wsielub Nowogródek Mieżańce Raduń[disambiguation needed]
Dźwinogród Buczacz Huta Stara † Buczacz Hołosko Wielkie Lwów
Berecz † Wołyń Matejkany Wilno Białozoryszki † Wilno
Potok Górny Tomaszów Bybło Rohatyn county Jazłowiec Buczacz
Dołha Tarnopol Słonim Nowogródek Hucisko Oleskie Tarnopol
Settlement Area Settlement Area Settlement Area

<ref name="Mark Paul">A considerable portion of the quoted list of Polish settlements engaged in collective rescuing of Jews originates from: [http://web.archive.org/web/20070701095957/www.savingjews.org/docs/clergy_rescue.pdf "Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy. The Testimony of Survivors"] compiled by Mark Paul, with selected bibliography; published by the Polish Educational Foundation in North America, [[Toronto]] 2007</ref>

Also pasting ref. --JaGatalk 09:19, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

<hr=50%> I'd like to suggest that all names of settlements leading to disambiguation pages be de-linked, essentially putting an end to this never-ending debate about the so-called inaccuracies. The names are drawn from reliable third-party references about World War II... Their exact locations don’t need to be defined unambiguously, because this article is about the historiography of the Holocaust, and not about the actual destinations often in different countries today. Poeticbent talk 18:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to go along with that, but we have to have accurate, verifiable information. What say we delink (or remove) anything we can't verify? Could you point out some sources? --JaGatalk 20:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

B-class review

This is to confirm this article is B-class. Review for WPPOLAND. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:55, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Christian Poles

The Yad Vashem statistics doesn't say Christian. I bet there were some atheists among them.Xx236 (talk) 08:24, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Survey by the BBC in 2004 recorded atheists as comprising 8% of the world's population.[1] No need to split hair in here. They were gentiles, which commonly denotes non-Jews. Whenever necessary, you can replace "Christian" with "gentile" if you want although it might not sound as descriptive. Poeticbent talk 13:25, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ "UK among most secular nations". BBC News. 2004-02-26. Retrieved 2015-01-14.
The Yad Vashem statistics doesn't say Christian so it's OR.Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Partial list of communities

Serock belonged probably to powiat warszawski, not to gmina.Xx236 (talk) 08:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC) The whole table is OR and should be removed.Xx236 (talk) 06:12, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I hope you do remember what WP:OR stands for in Wikipedia, do you. The abbreviation "OR" is used to refer to material for which no reliable, published sources exist. Poeticbent talk 06:29, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The original list has been extended, how?
What is the Area? It's described as gminas but it's false.Xx236 (talk) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The first check - Kozaki - Japan. Xx236 (talk) 05:55, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The second check - Olsztyn Village (unsorced name) links to the Polish Wikipedia even if there is Olsztyn, Silesian Voivodeship.Xx236 (talk) 05:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no Araje, according to Google.Xx236 (talk) 06:03, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having a hard time communicating with you Xx236. Please spend a little more time studying the content before taking a stab at cheap criticism. At the end of the opening paragraph is a citation with internal and external links which you refused to acknowledge so far. Do you remember what WP:NOTHERE stands for? "Little or no interest in working collaboratively." Poeticbent talk 06:22, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Kozaki Osuchowskie
  2. Kozaki, Poland
  3. pl:Kozaki (rejon kamionecki)
  4. pl:Kozaki (rejon złoczowski)
Please don't patronise, your better English language doesn't make you an expert in e.g. geography of Poland, which has been proved.
What do I need the list of 4 Kozaki? Is it a joke? Please correct the table or remove the Kozaki. The table links Kōzaki in Japan. It proves the table isn't perfect, but you assume my critics as ad personam. Is it too much to expect correct links?
Xx236 (talk) 06:42, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There exists no Araje in Poland.Xx236 (talk) 06:44, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
the text For list of settlements and their gminas in alphabetical order, please use table-sort buttons. misinforms, they are not only gminas, but Areas - gminas, counties (powiat) and others (Wołyń).Xx236 (talk) 06:46, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The quoted text is about the clergy, not about villages or towns. It's far from being obious how to step from several individual heroic deeds to classifying a village or town. The main place of hiding was Warsaw.Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sobibór links to the extermination camp. Is the link correct? What is the source? I haven't found Sobibór in Paul's text.Xx236 (talk) 07:46, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Stara Kubra isn't listed in Paul's text. My source is [3], I don't know if it's reliable.Xx236 (talk) 07:48, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kolonia Wileńska is now a part of Vilnius, no connection to Nieświerz.Xx236 (talk) 09:41, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have corrected Bybło, now uk:Набережне (Галицький район) Xx236 (talk) 09:50, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please be assured that I do appreciate your help. This article was created years ago. Wikilinks change. Kozaki was a correct link at first, but now it is the Kozaki Osuchowskie ... and the only reason I know that is because of the Lublin Voivodeship listed next to it. Available data is imperfect, but the locations can be pinpointed using administrative divisions such as gminas although we don't always have the actual names of gminas, but instead, the neighbouring towns and cities, or regions and voivodeships which can best be summarized as "areas", similar to rejony, tereny, obszary, miasta etc. in the Polish language. If the name is spelled in the source incorrectly, we can fix it. Poeticbent talk 10:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Poul, Bibliography on Glaukopis

Corrected Poul's texts are available here [4] Xx236 (talk) 10:04, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Are Kurek and Grynberg listed correctly?

They seem to be a part of Pauls reference. Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jan and Antonina Żabiński should be mentioned

The Zookeeper's Wife Xx236 (talk) 10:16, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Partial list of communities

This list, of some 106 locations, is for the most part un-sourced (or sourced by Mark Paul - who is clearly not a RS per comments in section below) - and is of little value to the article. My reading of previous discussion here (2010 (which also noted unsourced state) and 2012 (in which it was removed), and 2016) doesn't show consensus for inclusion of this. What are the grounds for keeping it?Icewhiz (talk) 14:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Use of Ewa Kurek as a source

My removal of the following two sources - diff, and diff was reverted. Both sources are the same book - even though one of them falsely states Jan Karski as an author (he did write an introduction) - one is the Polish language book, and the second is the English translation. There are a number of problems with this source. Let's begin with the publisher - Hippocrene Books - which specializes in folklore and ethnic cookbooks (such as Best of Polish Cooking) - so, not quite the publisher of academic texts. Moving on, while she does have a PhD from the Catholic University of Lublin, she is not particularly well published nor cited (note - there is a better published microbiologist with the same name - plwiki entry - so if you go scholar - you need to filter out all the life sciences hits) - nor does it seem does she hold a significant academic post (as of 2006 - wyborcza article on her views on "Jews having fun in the ghetto" - she held a lecturing position in "Higher School of Skills in Kielce" (which seems to mainly do weekend studies - per the city website). Moving a bit onwards, it seems she has quite interesting views about Jews - and it seems she has been called out on it by Poland Stops Ceremony for Author Accused of Anti-Semitism, NY Times (AP reprint) - not only the Jewish community, but it would seem also Polish government officials (yup - the current government). AP leads off with One, Polish author Ewa Kurek, has claimed that Jews had fun in the ghettos during the German occupation of Poland during World War II when describing her, and notes a response by the Polish government "Andrzej Pawluszek, an adviser to Poland's prime minister, said Wednesday that the award was never a government initiative, but authorities acted to stop an event that would have been divisive.". per Why Was Historian Who Blames Jews For Complicity with Nazis Considered For Humanitarian Prize?, Forward - "“Deeper research” reveals that Kurek says Jewish perfidy is intrinsic to Jewish law and communal organization." (not so deep research - you might see this in the video of her speaking above (which I found prior to this article - containing - “Jews behave like a [herd] of lions in a threatening situation,” Kurek says in a YouTube video. “Lions are said to throw the weakest ones to death, to save the rest. And this is the norm among Jews. We Christians, since the beginning of … time, we have one principle: In the situation of a threat, the strong protect the vulnerable. If someone tells you about a Judeo-Christian civilization, then there is no such thing because this [Judaic] law excludes our civilization.”. Some have noted some subtle aspects to her discourse “Kurek is more subtle than [Holocaust denier] David Irving,” Holocaust scholar Berel Lang told the Forward. “She doesn’t deny the genocide but argues rather that the Jews were complicit with the Nazis in organizing the wartime ghetto system.”. In short - we should definitely not be using her as a source in Wikipedia for WWII history.Icewhiz (talk) 15:03, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note

The above wall-of-text is a multiple copy-paste by User:Icewhiz first added to Talk:Irena Sendler on 25 April 2018, with no relevancy to this article content. Poeticbent talk 15:31, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is entirely relevant to the use of this particular source in this article. I have engaged in cleaning up references to Ewa Kurek in a few articles (thankfully - very few - it seems that the red flags around this source are fairly clear). Kurek was not supporting all that much text in this article - text sourced to refname "hundreds" was backed up by another ref, and text sourced to "Karski|2001" (falsely named - as this Kurek with an introduction by Karski) was limited to one not too long paragraph.Icewhiz (talk) 15:38, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Icewhiz, you copy/pasted irrevelant to this discussion text from here[5]. I can hardly follow this flooding and many propably dont even read it due to it's lenght.2A01:110F:4505:DC00:D802:543F:9A84:1976 (talk) 06:40, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Use of self-published (?) material by Mark Paul

My removal of [6][7][8][9][10] was reverted. These are 3 books authored by Mark Paul (who is somewhat known for authoring such works - at least by anyone searching on-line) - Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors (Polish Educational Foundation in North America), A TANGLED WEB. Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath (PEFINA Press (acronym of Polish Educational Foundation in North America)), and Patterns of Cooperation, Collaboration and Betrayal: Jews, Germans and Poles in Occupied Poland during World War II (The Polish Educational Foundation in North America). Neither Mark Paul nor The Polish Educational Foundation in North America have a reputation as experts in the field (if at all, there are different reputation issues). Mark Paul (this Mark Paul - there are more notable scholars in other fields) is rarely cited (even though the work being all available online - it is quite easy to find and cherrypick from). Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy (2015) is cited once per google scholar. A TANGLED WEB. Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath (2016? At least the last version has that date) doesn't appear in scholar, and nor does Patterns of Cooperation, Collaboration and Betrayal: Jews, Germans and Poles in Occupied Poland during World War II. Other works by Paul are uncited as well. Publication by PEFINA (and online, in what seems to be a PDF that is continually updates - e.g. Patterns is cited in our articles with a date of 2009 - the link currently has a PDF dated (at top) to 2016) - is a WP:SELFPUBLISHed book - and should be excluded per policy.Icewhiz (talk) 15:22, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

April 25, 2018

  • User:Icewhiz again, under false pretences (as is often the case), attempted to vandalize the work of others about the Polish rescuers of Jews during the Holocaust. Proper sourcing for Wikipedia articles is not a contest of who's in the money. Mark Paul is one of the best, if not the best Polish-Canadian historian devoted to this particular subject, acknowledged by virtually every relevant portal of interest.
  1. Collections Search - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.
  2. Virtual Shtetl, POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews.
  3. Virtual Shtetl, POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews.
  4. Kings University College. Reading list.
  5. Glaukopis scientific quarterly: Artykuly Obcojezyczne
  6. Poland, 1918-1945 By Peter D. Stachura ISBN 0415343585
  7. World War II Through Polish Eyes By M.B. Szonert ISBN 0880335025
  8. The Sarmatian Review - Volumes 22-25.
  9. Mark Paul (2001). Neighbours on the Eve of the Holocaust: The Polish Minority and Jewish Collaboration in Soviet-occupied Eastern Poland, 1939-1941. Pefina Press. 402 pages – via Google Books.
Thanks, Poeticbent talk 22:13, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Icewhiz edits appear to be very tendentious, correct me if I'm wrong 2A01:110F:4505:DC00:D802:543F:9A84:1976 (talk) 23:44, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
None of those sources establish Paul's credentials in the field - particularly not for self publlished books. All you have shown is that he has been cited 3 times in possibly RS (and, I'll not, with yet a different year for the publication date of this evolving online pdf). Being listed in a library (and some patently non RS are listed there as well) is not an indication.Icewhiz (talk) 03:42, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please, see Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#Open access for the follow-up discussion about the same misleading charge of "WP:SELFPUBLISHing" by Wikipedia policy/guidelines. And, let's keep further exchange of personal opinions on this topic in a single place from now on (over there). Thanks, Poeticbent talk 16:35, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Contrary to the above, no policy based rationale has been presented in the other talk page. SELFPUBLISHED was countered by a claim that some of these were not published at all - merely being hosted on the web - making this WP:USERGENERATED which is even less acceptable as a source.Icewhiz (talk) 04:58, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Here Icewhiz keeps removing[11][12][13] reference to historian Mark Paul claiming that he has no credentials(!?!) This has to stop NOW or it will be reported.GizzyCatBella (talk) 10:32, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you have a source covering him as a historian? This is self published (via PEFINA - the older versions, the new versions seem to be online only) material by an author with unclear credentials. There is no policy basis for its use. Note that by restoring these you are taking responsibility for inserting a source against Wikipedia policy.Icewhiz (talk) 11:02, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Does this work[14] looks to you as work of the amateur?? GizzyCatBella (talk) 11:22, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Mark Paul is an independent scholar in Canada, he has written the most exhaustive study of Koniuchy massacre in any language so far." Marek Chodakiewicz [15] GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:07, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That Chodakiewicz, active in far right movements and scrutinized by the SPLC and HopeNotHate, is one of the very few sources mentioning this work (all be it in a book that is filled with conspiracy theories per one academic review) - speaks volumes. However, Chodakiewicz himself says "independent scholar in Canada" - which does not establish any sort of credentials for Paul.Icewhiz (talk) 12:16, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So after questioning Kurek and Paul now you question Chodakiewicz as well. And whats wrong with being independent?? "Way to go" Icewhiz.GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:20, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing wrong with being independent, however being such does not establish credentials in the manner a chair in a major university would.Icewhiz (talk) 12:29, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You question credentials of every historian you don't like and thats the problem that needs to addressed soon. [16]GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:44, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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