Talk:Staffordshire Bull Terrier

Killer Breed

I'm really surprised that there are not many references in the article to the fact that this breed routinely kills people, particularly children. The internet is littered with articles about people being killed by Staffordshire Bull Terriers. It seems that there are a number of Staffordshire Bull Terrier enthusiasts on here who keep moulding this article with positive points as opposed to the truth that this breed is s killer. 146.90.15.7 (talk) 17:39, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources to back up your claims? Cavalryman (talk) 22:19, 4 April 2021 (UTC).

Then you know little about the breed I can very safely say SBT when brought up nicely are truly lovely animals. The sensationalising media have demonised this breed along with its cousins the Am Staff and ISBT. Anyway not much longer now before the DDA will be rewritten as Vets / Kennel Clubs are on the side of reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.39.126 (talk) 14:20, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Please dont remove legitimate comment or your editing rights may be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.39.126 (talk) 12:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

You know nothing about Pitbulls and staffie (English staffies look like they are smiling and the American ones are taller then American bully and have pointy ears) Read this https://www.therealpitbull.com/facts/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1007:B105:CEA3:8538:8A78:1D69:A5A5 (talk) 00:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal: Bull and terrier

I am of the opinion that Bull and terrier should be merged into this page. Since rewriting the history section of this article two years ago, more and better sources have become available to me, and the vast majority consider the two one and the same, several stating explicitly the Bull and Terrier became the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. The current breed name Staffordshire Bull Terrier was only adopted in the 1930s in order to gain recognition for the breed with the Kennel Club, but the article should very definitely retain this name. Cavalryman (talk) 10:38, 2 June 2021 (UTC).

Cavalryman, mostly I'm inclined to defer to your opinion – this is not an area I'm particularly (or really even marginally) familiar with. But given the second sentence of our Bull and terrier article ("It was a crossbreed that was the progenitor of several modern standardised breeds (Bull-type terriers), including the Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier"), are we really sure that this and no other breed descended from it? Should we not let these particular sleeping dogs lie? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

It is that last thought that has made me stop before now. I am unsure about the Dogs Argentino (it looks a little like romanticised OR) but the others definitely do descend from the B&T, but the overwhelming number of quality sources either imply or state explicitly that the Staffie is the B&T, just with a new brand; the history of the Staffie is that of the B&T until the 1930s. The B&T article has been on my to do list for some time (I think the Staffie’s history needs a little refresh also), but when I do the former we will have a bit of a CFORK. Cavalryman (talk) 22:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC).

Fascinating position. Where does its nearest cousin, the English Bull Terrier, fit into this picture? William Harris (talk) 09:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The English Bull Terrier was created as a refined version of the B&T by outcrosses with collies and English White Terriers, it was then widely shown under the name Bull Terrier and achieved Kennel Club recognition under that name. Having had their preferred breed name effectively stolen and copyrighted by an imposter, the breeders of B&Ts had to settle with the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Cavalryman (talk) 09:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC).

This [1] also appears to be informative, with the "Bully" stated as coming directly from various crossings of bulldog with terrier - plus some more elegant breeds thrown into the mix. Therefore, there is no need for a "Bull & Terrier" dog type to be in between, which adds to your argument. William Harris (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support as per nom. William Harris (talk) 22:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: The Bull and Terrier was an important middle step in creating many bully breeds as noted in this chart. Certainly, NOT just the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. It is often written up as it's own historical breed in books. There is plenty of room for this article at Wikipedia and allows room to expand the article over time. In addition, ten Wikipedia's in various languages have the Bull and terrier as a separate article. Blockhouse321 (talk) 09:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC) Struck comment from two time TBAN evading sockpuppet of the article’s creator. Cavalryman (talk) 21:23, 3 September 2021 (UTC).

What I see provided here is a link to a chart taken from the internet of unknown origin, with no author nor references provided, depicting a collection of dogs referred to as "Bully". This is hardly providing a WP:RELIABLE source to support your position. Do you have anything else? William Harris (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I oppose it the Bull and Terrier is clearly a separate breed of dog.Dwanyewest (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

@Dwanyewest: you say clearly these two are separate, can you provide any reliable sources to verify that statement? The Bull and Terrier page was created by a known disruptive Sockpuppeteer who has been topic banned from dog fighting breed articles because of their disruption in this area. Further, as shown above, a majority of reliable sources state they are one and the same. Cavalryman (talk) 22:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC).

The AKC recognise the Bull and Terrier as progenitor of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier[2] Dwanyewest (talk) 03:28, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@Dwanyewest: the AKC are notoriously unreliable when it comes to breed histories, and particularly so when it comes to the SBT, on their SBT breed page they claim James Hinks was involved in the breed’s development, that is contradicted by literally every other source on the subject (but interestingly that page actually supports this merger saying The Bull-and-Terrier, the Patched Fighting Terrier, the Staffordshire Pit-dog, and the Brindle Bull are a few of the Stafford’s historical aliases.). The article you have linked here makes some other significant mistakes, the Bull Terrier and SBT did not diverge, the aforementioned James Hinks crossbred B&Ts/SBTs with English White Terriers and Collies to achieve the colour and head shape of that breed, whilst the SBT remained unchanged. Cavalryman (talk) 07:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC).

@Dwanyewest: whilst I remain unconvinced by their website’s accuracy, I have just found a book written by the American Kennel Club which is published by a reputable external publishing house, The complete dog book. It makes several statements about the Bull and Terrier:

• "... originally called the Bull-and-Terrier Dog, Half and Half, and at time Pit Dog and Pit Bullterrier. Later, it assumed the name in England of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier." Page 318.
• "It [the Staffordshire Bull Terrier] was called by names such as “Bulldog Terrier” and “Bull and Terrier”." Page 369.

Does this assuage some of your doubts? Cavalryman (talk) 11:03, 15 October 2021 (UTC).

• Oppose. A cursory look at Bull and terrier says B&T is part of the history of multiple different breeds. Breeds mentioned in B&T article with B&T as a progenitor: Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier, as well as Fox Terrier, Airedale Terrier, rat-working terriers, working black and tan terriers and most all other vermin-hunting terriers. The B&T article is a full blown article in its own right. There are a lot of 'overlapping' articles in Wikipedia and I don't think there is a guideline against that. Surely there is no downside to leaving B&T in an article of its own so it could be linked to from the history sections of those other breeds. Rather, if you merge the content, then other breed histories mentioning B&T will wind up with a link to Staffordshire Bull Terrier (which is not part of their history). Platonk (talk) 17:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Platonk: do you have any sources to verify what the article says? As articulated above, quality sources say they are one and the same? Cavalryman (talk) 11:59, 19 September 2021 (UTC).

Greetings @Cavalryman: No sources, just my logic applied to what I know about breeds, their changes over time, and people's perceptions/thoughts when they read things. What I got from what I read was that the majority of the sources are saying their breeds are from the old B&T (not SBT), and you say there are a few sources indicating SBT is simply the new name of B&T (circa 1930s). Ok, let's assume all those writings are true. And we know that breeds morph over time, so the post-1930-SBT (especially today, 90 years later) isn't the same as the pre-1930-B&T. I'm assuming those other breeds were created pre-1930. If you put B&T into article SBT, you're basically saying they are one and the same. And the reader who reads about an Airedale is going to be directed to the SBT article and might think to themselves, "I guess my dog is sort of a pit bull". Whacky, but that's what location in Wikipedia has the potential to do.

And if you merge B&T into SBT, you're going to have to put all that hunting and fighting history in SBT, too. I see some is there, but I would think that the history section of SBT would be more about how B&T became SBT, and less about B&T's old history (which is ancient history to SBT).

And then there's 'due weight' (and keep in mind how everyone, rightly or wrongly, takes Wikipedia's word as truth and republishes stuff they find on Wikipedia): if the majority of the sources say that their breed comes from the old B&T (not SBT), and you have a few sources saying SBT is simply B&T renamed, would location of the material within Wikipedia (in SBT article versus a separate B&T article) give more weight to the few sources over the majority sources? Will the new generation of "got all my research done on Wikipedia" start publishing articles saying how Airedales came from Staffordshire Bull Terriers?

I guess I'm just trying to drive home the point that even if B&T equaled SBT in 1930, does B&T=SBT today? Do you want to 'collapse time' and bring everyone to thinking that oldB&T=todaySBT? Keeping separate articles keeps the time (and changes that happen over time) separated. Might it not be better to leave the B&T article separate so that there's no mistaking that it was the precursor to SBT (and a few others)? Just consider the pros and cons of merging the information. What is the benefit of merging the two articles, and what would be the results or consequences? Just some things to think about. Platonk (talk) 17:21, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Platonk: welcome back to Wikipedia, I know it’s been 11 months but it feels much longer, pandemic and all. Yes this would involve a serious expansion of the history section and due acknowledgement/explanation in the lead. Cavalryman (talk) 20:48, 19 September 2021 (UTC).

@Platonk: I gather from the above that you are worried this article’s history section will become more about the B&T, given most quality sources state they are the same thing that is wholly appropriate. Do you have any meaningful policy based rationale for opposing this merger, or again can you point to any sources that state they are different? Cavalryman (talk) 11:06, 30 September 2021 (UTC).

@Platonk: I notice you seem have stepped away from participating in all topics related to dogs and canines, but I ask again do you have any sources or meaningful policy based rationale for opposing this merger? Cavalryman (talk) 10:11, 15 October 2021 (UTC).

@Cavalryman: Asked and answered! I left this discussion because within hours of me answering your question, you completely dismantled then co-opted a new template I had just made elsewhere, without any discussion, and you didn't answer my question to you about it. That, plus the strange personal-like comments you directed at me [3] [4], and the WP:OWN behavior you display on this talk page, suggests the template destruction was a hostile act (perhaps to game this proposal) rather than one based in logic or policy. Therefore, I am not interested in interacting with you. Please stop tagging me or trying to engage me. Platonk (talk) 01:39, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

• Bull and Terrier was the progenitor for the SBT / APBT / AST but is not the same breed— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.39.126 (talk) 12:05, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello IP, do you have any sources that corroborate this statement? As you can see above, multiple quality sources say they are one and the same dogs. Cavalryman (talk) 02:47, 14 October 2021 (UTC).

See http://thestaffordshirebullterrier.co.uk/history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.39.126 (talk) 08:18, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello again IP, I have taken the liberty of moving the link above you added (with this edit) so the conversation makes sense.

Wikipedia only accepts reliable sources which the above website is not. But ... still that website does not state they are separate and even includes this interview with Joe Mallen, considered one of the men pivotal in the breed’s recognition, which states emphatically that Bull and Terrier is just another old name previously used for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Cavalryman (talk) 10:11, 15 October 2021 (UTC).

OK try this link http://thesbtc.co.uk/breed-info/ the bull and terrier was almost a mongrel until the SBT Club stabilised the look via line breeding in the 1930s and in those days the standard was larger at 18 inches at the withers. Hope that helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.39.126 (talk) 11:44, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

If anything that link endorses this merger, stating the Staffie descends directly from a “cross between the Bulldog and a terrier” not some in between breed. Regardless of what it was called previously (various names including Bull and Terrier) it is now called the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Cavalryman (talk) 12:06, 15 October 2021 (UTC).

This proposal appears to be attracting lots of personal opinions - no doubt based on dubious websites and references which people have read in their past (it even surprised me!) - but it is not attracting WP:RELIABLE references to support those opinions. "Dwayne" and Platonk do you still maintain your original positions after Cavalryman's comments, please? William Harris (talk) 07:15, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

William Harris and Cavalryman: Apparently I'm going to have to comment in order to stop the pinging. To both of you, you are asking for a reference and I gave you logic, as did several others. This proposal is 4.5 months old. I see a series of 'oppose' votes and not one other editor supporting the proposal. If you don't have the support of enough other editors after 4.5 months, I'd say the proposal is dead for the time being. That is my two cents. I stopped being interested in this thread four weeks ago, so you can both stop pinging me. Platonk (talk) 01:39, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT William Harris (talk) 04:19, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support. There is no reason to keep the articles separate when the sources clearly state they are they same thing. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 23:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - (excerpt): ...the progenitor of several modern standardised breeds (bull-type terriers), including the Bull Terrier, Miniature Bull Terrier, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier. I believe it is important to maintain this article as a stand alone reference because of the various resulting breeds, not just the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Merging it into a single article (breed) may confuse readers into thinking the Staffordshire is the primary resulting cross that led to the development of those other breeds. Atsme 💬 📧 15:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC) Adding- AKC excerpt from Bull Terrier history: Basically the hybrid of its day, the bull and terrier wasn’t a bona-fide breed. Rather, it was a rough outline, a starting point for several breeds, including the dogs that today we call “pitbulls.” The next section title reads From Bull-and-Terrier to Bull Terrier. 15:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Atsme, please can you indicate what the first quote above is an excerpt from? That account of the genesis of the Dogo Argentino contradicts every secondary source I have read on the subject so I doubt its accuracy. Re the second quote, as we have discussed previously the AKC is notoriously unreliable when it comes to breed histories, but as I have explained above [5] when their work is reviewed by a publisher they state these two are one and the same. There are a preponderance of secondary sources that state they are one and the same breed, and that the APBT/AmStaff descend from early British B&Ts/SBTs, some are cited above and here are some more.

The B&T article was created by a notorious sock puppeteer whose socks have received multiple blocks for serious incompetence and disruptive editing, and further have twice been TBANed from editing dog and/or terrier articles (once thanks to you). The B&T article’s sources that actually discuss the breed either date from the 19th century or are self-published rubbish, whilst multiple quality, reliable secondary sources have been provided demonstrating they are one and the same breed, just their current name was adopted in the last century. Cavalryman (talk) 22:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC).

The excerpt is in the lead of the B&t article, (I fixed it above), and it is cited to 5 different sources. If you have the time and energy to verify all those sources, please do. When I was bringing the staffie article to GA status, I did not find any reliable references (beyond anecdotal) that convinced me the modern Staffordshire Bull Terrier is the "original" Bull and terrier, whatever that may be, as it was never standardized/recognized beyond being random results of crossbreeding. See the 2017 DNA analysis in the article which states the following (my bold underline): In 2017, a genome-wide study suggested that all of the bull and terrier–type dogs, including the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, map back to the terriers of Ireland and to origins which date to the period 1860–1870. The timing coincides with historical descriptions of dog fighting contests in Ireland, a lack of accurate stud book documentation, and subsequently, the undocumented crosses of dogs during the time when these breeds were first created. By 1874, in Britain the first Kennel Club Stud Book was published, which included Bull Terriers and Bulldogs. See UKC's description of the Bull terrier. Also see how UKC specifically separates the staffie from other bull and terrier breeds per the following statement in the history section: The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a descendant of the Bull and Terrier crosses made in Great Britain in the late 1700's. It was given the name "Staffordshire" in reference to an area where it was very popular, to differentiate it from the other Bull and Terrier breeds. I'll expand a bit more because the national breed registries do keep historic documentation, and AKC states: It was in the early 1860s that Englishman James Hinks took an old fighting breed, a Bulldog-terrier cross called the Bull-and-Terrier, and refined and standardized it as the modern Bull Terrier. The bottomline is that there are other Bull and terrier descendents and resulting breeds, and it would be inaccurate to merge the Bull and terrier article with the Staffordshire Bull Terrier article, as it leaves the impression that it was simply a name change when that couldn't be further from accurate. I believe that it would serve far more benefit to our readers if we cleaned-up (CE & cite better sources) the Bull and terrier article for accuracy's sake, and kept it as a historic reference - you know, like Homo erectus vs Homo sapiens. Atsme 💬 📧 02:21, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Atsme, thanks for the response. Yes I agree there are a number of other breeds that descend from the B&T, but that doesn't detract from the SBT being the original (under a new name). According to some of the best sources we have been citing in recent years, the history of the B&T is the early history of the SBT. Re the UKC, as has been discussed at WT:DOGS we no longer cite kennel clubs for their breed histories because they contain too many inaccuracies. But ... that AKC quote does not contradict this, the SBT was only given that name in the 1930s, before that it was called the B&T.

This proposal came about because I started collecting sources to rewrite the B&T article and I found most good ones state they are just an early name for the SBT. As far as I can tell the B&T article is just another abysmal SirIsaacBrock/IQ125 creation that cobbles together some contemporary mentions with SBS, SYNTH and OR, and it has been accepted as true until now. Having made this proposal I have deliberately not edited the B&T article that much to avoid accusations of doing so to sway this debate, basically when it happens it will be a case of WP:NUKEIT. But I don't know how to rewrite it and not state they are SBTs, all the good sources say as much, and I honestly don't see how any credible editor can deny it without providing a greater volume of contradictory sources, but they just don't exist. Cavalryman (talk) 03:06, 25 January 2022 (UTC).

With all due respect Cavalryman, ^{clarification 20:13, 26 January 2022 (UTC)}generally speaking, when cherrypicking sources to fit a particular narrative, it is not too difficult to make history (and resulting generalities/anecdotal evidence) align with the fallacious belief that all bull and terrier breeds are pit bulls (Staffordshire bull terriers) and should be put down, but I adamently disagree. Just my nickel's worth. Atsme 💬 📧 01:22, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

@Atsme: who says I am cherry picking sources and/or advocating the destruction of these dogs? I ask that you retract that statement and/or present sources/some policy based argument to oppose this merger, which you have not done so far. Cavalryman (talk) 01:33, 26 January 2022 (UTC).

An apparent misunderstanding, now clarified in my comment above, as it was a general statement not an accusation. Your accusation that my argument is not policy based is simply not true. My argument is not only policy based, it is supported by RS and verifiable documentation maintained by the KC, a reputable breed registry which satisfies WP:V. In fact, the KC approved the name & recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier as a breed in 1975 after rejecting the first name submission, "Original Bull Terrier". The "original" Bull Terrier was already recognized as a breed in 1948 whereas the Staffie was recognized 27 years later. Futhermore, the History section of the Bull Terrier states (my bold underline): Today's Bull Terrier is the direct descendant of the original bull-and-terrier crosses made in England, specifically to bait bulls and, later to fight in pits. The breed was standardized in England in the early 1850's by James Hinks. The Staffie article's History section makes no such claim: The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a descendant of the Bull and Terrier crosses made in Great Britain in the late 1700's. It was given the name "Staffordshire" in reference to an area where it was very popular, to differentiate it from the other Bull and Terrier breeds. The Bull Terrier article would be the logical choice for merging, not the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, but again, I oppose a merge, and still maintain my position, with valid reason, to update this article and keep it for historic reference. Atsme 💬 📧 20:13, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Atsme, I accept your word that your comment was not aimed directly at me, but there is an inference in it. Further, there is no benefit in quoting from articles, we don't WP:CITEWIKI.

I have presented some very respected reliable secondary sources that are cited across the encyclopedia (see some here [6][7][8]) and all that has been presented in response is the word of a couple of kennel clubs. I can see there is no turning your opinion here, but I reiterate none of this proposal's opposers have presented any policy based rationale for their opposition. Cavalryman (talk) 02:12, 27 January 2022 (UTC).

Further, the James Beaufoy book which is cited in the article 13 times states The result of the decision to breed more athletic dogs for fighting purposes was the emergence of the so-called 'Bull and Terrier', sometimes referred to as the 'Pit dog'. This is of prime importance in the story of the development of our breed as 150 years later this dog would be recognised by the Kennel Club as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier! Cavalryman (talk) 02:56, 27 January 2022 (UTC).

And a couple of other sources in this article:

• the Caroline Coile piece introduced into the article by you [9], states It [the name pit bull] is a generic designation for several breeds including the American pit bull terrier, which was the first breed registered by the United Kennel Club (UKC) in 1898; its counterpart, the American Staffordshire terrier, which was registered by the American Kennel Club (AKC) in 1936; and the ancestor of both breeds, the Staffordshire bull terrier. (bolding mine). This supports the merger as it says the SBT is the ancestor of all.
• the Walter Fletcher piece, again added by you [10], states His [the Staffordshire Bull Terrier's] ancestors are believed to be the bulldog and English terrier and he was known as the Pit Dog or Pit Bull Terrier. These are other early names for the SBT used alongside the "Bull and Terrier" name both directly above and in other sources cited.

Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 03:29, 27 January 2022 (UTC).

Break

@Atsme: I see you are now trying to sanitise the article of sources that do not agree with your incorrect point of view, if you continue in this fashion the history section will only be cited to the AKC. It has already been demonstrated here that you were incorrect when you said above When I was bringing the staffie article to GA status, I did not find any reliable references (beyond anecdotal) that convinced me the modern Staffordshire Bull Terrier is the "original" Bull and terrier, but I assume good faith in that you must have forgotten in the 30 months since then. But you are now cherrypicking sources to conform to your own notions, please stop. Cavalryman (talk) 13:39, 27 January 2022 (UTC).

• Comment: to the extent that there are extant sources that address these as separate things, it seems useful to have separate articles. This is not a Pigeon/Dove situation, where we have a scientific consensus that there is a genetic identity to what were previously thought to be distinct species. There has not been a process to determine whether the AKC is a "bad" source for Wikipedia's purposes, so we apply it and leave it for the reader to weigh the value of the source. BD2412 T 19:27, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

BD2412, yes I agree a trip to RSN is likely in the near future. But kennel clubs are not independent sources when it comes to dog breeds, they have vested interests in promoting breeds and certain breed histories in their respective countries, at a minimum they should be treated as primary sources. And why would we give greater weight to a North American kennel club over that of the kennel club from this breed's native country, the world's oldest kennel club, which has been involved with this breed for almost four decades longer? Particularly when their viewpoint is shared by nine independent, reliable secondary sources here or in the article (this one was removed by Atsme). There is a POV problem with this article. Cavalryman (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2022 (UTC).

If a trip to RSN is necessary, then take that trip. As it stands, we have no established consensus for disregarding AKC as a source. I would think primary sources for this purpose would be something like diaries of the breeders themselves. BD2412 T 23:03, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The only POV problem I see here is the insistence to include anectdotal material which equates into WP:OR. Anectdotal material is not suddenly factual simply because a RS included passing mention of anectdotal material. Furthermore, what happened in the 18th century involved unrecognized, undocumented dog types, and that does not belong in any lead of any modern recognized dog breed. It may be acceptable with intext attribution in the ancestry/historic sections of an article but not in the lead. We are obligated to use RS that have maintained historic breed documentation and high standards for their registration requirements of purebreds - for DECADES - because they have been monitoring these dog types, beginning with the inception of their organizations, including the information provided by reputable kennel clubs. I consider them to be mainstream vs alternative, so forgive me if I'm not as ready as some to accept alternative views by individual authors who may be depending on 19th century paintings and "he said/she said" evidence to base their arguments rather than DNA evidence. Atsme 💬 📧 23:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Atsme, to round out the numbers here is a tenth source. Ten authors writing in ten publications with ten different publishers (and presumably ten editors and editorial staff). This is not about American vs British POVs either; Caroline Coile, Walter Fletcher, Arthur Jones, Chris Walkowicz, and Bonnie Wilcox are (or were) all Americans. David Alderton, James Beaufoy, Michael Billett, Ferelith Hamilton and Desmond Morris British. This is not anecdotal, these is what the preponderance of sources from some of the most respected writers in the field of cynology across the Atlantic state. Yes, if you continue to obstinately deny what these sources state then the article now has a POV problem and there is a perception that you were aware of what these sources state (you introduced two and cited a third extensively) and deliberately excluded, and in fact mis-cited these sources to perpetuate your POV.

BD2412, when I have the opportunity (when the rolling blackouts we are experiencing here stop) I will look to take this to RSN. But, I am quite surprised that you appear to be advocating to exclude what are impeccably well sourced content from this article. Cavalryman (talk) 02:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC).

Calvaryman, rather than bludgeon us with book titles and the names of authors, quote the exact phrases that support what you want to include.^{I see some quoted text in the citations.} Not all of us have access to the books you are reading. The excerpts you listed below tell us nothing but passing mention by authors who don't appear to understand how the Stafford came to be a recognized breed, and provide no evidence to support their passing mention which is why I need to see the mention in context. Atsme 💬 📧 06:16, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The nearly 200 year old ancestral history of the bull and terrier dog type is based on anecdotal information and should not be merged into the Staffordshire Bull Terrier article. That article already has an adequate accounting of the breed's ancestry. As I've already mentioned, you have not taken into account the fact that the British Staffordshire Bull Terrier is not the only presumed descendant of the early bull and terrier cross, whatever that cross may be since no one knows for certain. Other books and articles name other breeds with the same ancestral bull and terrier crosses. See American Pit Bull Terrier#History This type of dog, which was bred in the British Isles, became known as the bull and terrier. "Became known as" is simply common terminology for the evolutionary phase that spans some 200 years and should not be taken literally. American Staffordshire Terrier: Some varieties of Bull-and-terrier from the British Isles began to find their way into America as early as 1850. Read further toward the end of that same paragraph: The name Staffordshire Terrier was chosen, with the claim that the ancestors of the breed originally came from Staffordshire, England. The name of the breed was revised on January 1, 1969, to American Staffordshire Terrier to distinguish it from the British Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a separate breed from the Bull-type terrier group, recognized in England in 1935. Again, lots of "believed to be" and "claims" = anecdotal. The above material is cited to the following books:

1. Stahlkuppe, Joe (April 2, 2000). American Pit Bull Terrier Handbook. Barron's Educational Series. ISBN 0764147447,
2. Frome, Jane Hogg (2012-03-13). Staffordshire Bull Terrier. i5 Publishing. ISBN 9781593789879.
3. Smith, Alison; Smith, Lecturer in Contrinetal European Cinema Alison (2009). Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Collins. ISBN 9780007274284.

I consider DNA research, breed registry records, and kennel club records to be far more reliable than some of the individual dog books authored by dog enthusiasts who had nothing more to go on than breed registry info, local kennel club info and anecdotal information. I am quite confident that my position correctly follows what RS have published about the modern Staffordshire Bull Terrier and that the article adequately covers the breed and its history without the need to merge unverifiable anecdotal material that is nearly 200 years old, and questionable at best. Atsme 💬 📧 09:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Atsme, what you are saying is utterly bonkers. Are you seriously deriding professional writers in this field who have their work published by professional publishing houses as "enthusiasts"? By that reasoning no historian or journalist could ever be cited across Wikipedia. And are you claiming that citing secondary sources is OR or that authors of secondary sources themselves conduct OR? Because neither conforms to our policies, again what do we cite in articles? Cavalryman (talk) 20:42, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, I see you have added Fleig as a reference, please verify exactly what it says. Cavalryman (talk) 20:49, 28 January 2022 (UTC).

Also, as you place greater weight in what kennel clubs state (a position I heartily disagree with) I have had a quick look at what some other kennel clubs that list a history:

• the Australian National Kennel Council The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is the "original Bull Terrier", simply a renamed version of the "Bull and Terrier". [11]
• the Canadian Kennel Club The Bull and Terrier might have disappeared if not for a group of fanciers led by Joseph Dunn, who appreciated the dogs for their own sakes and persuaded The Kennel Club (England) to recognize the breed as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the name of the English county where the breed was most popular. [12]
• the Société Centrale Canine (please forgive the machine translation) It was created in the 19th century in Staffordshire, by crossbreeding the Bulldog and various terriers [13]

All of these kennel clubs have at least three decades more experience with the breed, and hence breed records, than the AKC. We have been experiencing rolling power outages over the last couple of days, editing has been hard. Cavalryman (talk) 21:03, 28 January 2022 (UTC).

• This proposal seems a nonstarter to me. The lead of bull and terrier says "The bull and terrier is an extinct type of dog". The Staffordshire Bull Terrier infobox says that "Bull and terrier" is an other name for that dog. Yet the Staffordshire Bull Terrier seems to be a breed that is alive and well, not extinct. Clearly these articles must, if they are accurate, be talking about two different "Bull and terrier"s, so the term needs to be more clearly disambiguated. Actually the lead of Staffordshire Bull Terrier contradicts its infobox, saying it's "a descendant of the now extinct bull and terrier". If that's true then the infobox needs to be corrected to say that "Bull and terrier" is Foundation stock rather than an other name. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:56, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Wbm1058, no as explained here the mast majority of sources state the Bull and Terrier never became extinct, it was simply given the new name Staffordshire Bull Terrier to achieve kennel club recognition. Cavalryman (talk) 20:42, 28 January 2022 (UTC).

Cavalryman, you're still not making any sense to me. Why would you advocate propagating what you feel is misinformation, by merging that misinformation into another article? It would make more sense to me if you proposed correcting or deleting the misinformation rather than merging it. Note that I don't feel qualified myself to be able to determine whether a dog breed is extinct or not, and I'd just defer to the experts by saying "experts A and B" believe the breed is extinct while the opinion of "experts C and D" is that the dog was renamed "Staffordshire Bull Terrier". wbm1058 (talk) 21:08, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The information about the extinction appears to be disputed by the vast majority or sources, that these dogs existed under that name is what they state. Any merger would only bring reliably sourced information across, I believe the redirect should be retained because this was a name used for these dogs. Last night in the dark I made a quick start on a proposed rewrite. Cavalryman (talk) 21:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC).

Well said, Wbm1058. And I will add that the information about their origins is anecdotal and unverifiable. Yes, some authors wrote about the anecdotal origins that align with CM's POV but he's overlooking the fact that it's still anecdotal. Other RS align more closely with what I'm saying and includes documentation from historic breed registries that are considered mainstream because they make the rules for breed recognition and are the determining factor as to whether a breed is a breed and where it originated based on breeding records, DNA information and other documented reports accumulated for decades. The most we have to go on dating back 200 years or so is the "belief" that the Stafford is a descendant of early bull and terrier crosses based primarily on their looks - it's anecdotal. Those claims are based on photographs, heresay and 19th century paintings, for Pete's sake. I saw a photograph of a young man who looks exactly like Elvis Presley so it must be his son!! It was published in multiple books by different authors which makes it...what? At least the notable breed registries have DNA evidence which I included in the Staffordshire Bull Terrier article. That article adequately covers the breed's ancestry, and I can't understand why CM refuses to understand the fundamental basics of anecdotal evidence dating back 200 years, and what constitutes verifiability of a modern breed as a purebred that is recognized by several reputable breed registries. Yes, I question unverifiable reports and my own beliefs - I'm thorough and pragmatic in my way of thinking - and I remain confident that I've done what is best for our readers. We do not have a clear consensus to merge, so why is Cavalryman attempting to merge bits and pieces of this article into the Stafford article before this discussion is even closed? I have reverted his edits. The basis of his argument is still grounded in anecdotal evidence; i.e., believed to be, claimed to be....none of it factually verifiable. His arguement fails WP:V. Pinging active editors: Justlettersandnumbers, William Harris, Gareth Griffith-Jones please weigh-in. Atsme 💬 📧 22:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Atsme, this is bordering on crazy. By your logic your POV is unverified. It seems almost all kennel clubs that include a historical summary of the breed also disagree with your POV. Cavalryman (talk) 23:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC).

References

Possible rewrite

Below is a very rough cut of how I think this lead and history section could look if merged. It was written by ipad in the dark so please excuse some of the errors, also I have not progressed beyond 1938, obviously it needs to discuss the breed's proliferation around the world. Cavalryman (talk) 21:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC).

First draft of how the article could read.

Staffordshire Bull Terrier Other names Bull and terrier Bull Terrier Pit dog Half and Half Bulldog Terrier Common nicknames Stafford Staffy Origin United Kingdom Foundation stock Old English Bulldog Old English Terrier Traits Height 36–41 cm (14–16 in) Weight Males 13–17 kg (29–37 lb) Females 11–15.4 kg (24–34 lb) Coat Smooth, short and close Colour Red, fawn, white, black or blue, or any one of these colours with white, any shade of brindle or any shade of brindle with white. Litter size 5-7 Life span Over 12 years Kennel club standards KC standard Fédération Cynologique Internationale standard Dog (domestic dog) The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a British breed of short-haired terrier of medium size. It originated in the Black Country of the English Midlands. The breed was previously known by a number of names, including the Bull and Terrier, the Bull Terrier, the Pit dog, Half and Half and the Bulldog Terrier; it was created by crossbreeding the extinct Old English Bulldog and the extinct Old English Terrier. After the introduction of legislation criminalising dogfighting in 1835 and again in 1911, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was more commonly kept as a companion dog. Its history as a fighting dog made it difficult for the breed to gain recognition by the British Kennel Club; it was eventually recognised in 1935. History Two bulldogs Crib and Rosa, Abraham Cooper 1817 Dustman, bull and terrier, Benjamin Marshall 1804 First ever Staffordshire Bull Terrier show, Cradley Heath 1935. Gentleman Jim, Joseph Dunn's award-winning Staffordshire Bull Terrier The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was developed in England in the 19th century specifically to participate in organised dog fights. While deliberately pitting dogs against one another in staged fights had been known in England for centuries, until the 19th century it had not enjoyed the widespread popularity of the blood sports of bull and bear-baiting. From the beginning of the 19th century the popularity of baiting sports began to wane in favour of organised dog fights, which conducted under strict rules. The popularity of dog fighting increased further with the passage of the Cruelty to Animals Act 1835 which made blood sports illegal throughout the United Kingdom. This legislation effectively eliminated bull and bear baiting, as the large arenas required to conduct these blood sports were easily policed by authorities. Deprived of one of their favourite pastimes, thousands throughout the country turned to dog fighting which could be conducted clandestinely. The Black Country of Staffordshire and parts of Warwickshire was to become the stronghold of these fights. With the increasing popularity of dog fights, a new variety of dog more suited to that blood sport began to be developed. There are two theories about the Staffordshire Bull Terrier's development; the first and most commonly held theory is the breed was developed by cross breeding the Old English Bulldog with one or more terrier varieties. The aggressive, courageous and tenacious Old English Bulldog had been developed in the preceding centuries specifically for bull-baiting; it was very well suited for this task but experience showed that it was not quick or agile enough when pitted against another dog in staged fights. In order to produce a lighter, faster and more agile dog which retained the required courage and tenacity, the breeders of these dogs outcrossed their Old English Bulldogs with local terriers. It is usually stated that the terrier used for these crosses was the Old English Terrier, but it is likely a variety of terriers were used by different breeders depending upon local availability. The result of these crosses was the emergence of a new variety of dog which was known by a number of different names including the Bull and Terrier, the Pit dog, the Half and Half and the Bulldog Terrier, later the name Bull Terrier became the most common. A second theory held by some cynologists is the Old English Bulldog was never cross bred with lighter terriers but instead remained pure, being selectively bred for smaller size, greater speed and superior agility. These early Bulldogs were developed from large mastiffs, bred down in size to be low-slung with wider faces and undershot jaws. The primary evidence for this theory is the similarities in appearance between Old English Bulldogs depicted contemporary paintings and the modern Staffordshire Bull Terrier. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was most commonly referred to as "Bull Terrier" for over a century, but in the 1860s dog breeder James Hinks began had began to exhibit another variety at conformation shows throughout the country under that name. In the 1850s Hinks had developed his Bull Terrier by cross breeding the original breed with English White Terriers and Dalmatians to develop a more refined all-white coloured variety. In 1874 Hinks' Bull Terriers were recognised by the Kennel Club, being listed in their first published stud book. Dog fighting with Staffordshire Bull Terriers remained relatively common in Britain throughout the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. The passage of the Protection of Animals Act 1911 further criminalised organised dog fighting but fights were known to continue until the 1930s. Due to the continued close association of these dogs with illegal dog fights, the Kennel Club refused to seriously consider recognising the breed. It was not until the early 1930s that serious attempts were made by devotees of the breed to gain Kennel Club recognition, the most instrumental individual in these efforts was breeder Joseph Dunn. Throughout 1932 and 1933 Dunn, with the assistance of another breeder Joe Mallen and the actor Tom Walls, made continued entreaties to the Kennel Club, these efforts were initially derided. In 1935 a variety show for the breed was held on the blowing green of the Conservative Club at Cradley Heath, and after the success of the show it was decided to form a breed club. Following this the Kennel Club approved a draft standard and in June what was to become the Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club was formed in a meeting at the Old Cross Guns pub in Cradley Heath where the breed standard was approved by the membership. Initially the breed club tried to have the breed recognised under the name "Original Bull Terrier", but this was rejected by the Kennel Club as it has too close to the Hinks type Bull Terrier. It was decided to add the name of the traditional stronghold of these dogs, so they became the "Staffordshire Bull Terrier"; that having first appeared in 1930 in advertisements for dogs of the breed. This name was also opposed by devotees of Hinks type Bull Terriers, who wanted the breed to be called the "Staffordshire Terrier", but the Kennel Club overruled their objections. When the Kennel Club granted official pedigree standard later in the year 147 dogs were listed in the stud book, by 1938 there were 750 dogs registered. In the years following the Second World War, pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terriers were exported to most European counties, Australia, Canada, New Zealand DNA analysis In 2017, a genome-wide study suggested that all of the bull and terrier–type dogs, including the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, map back to the terriers of Ireland and to origins which date to the period 1860–1870. References

Article's neutrality

There appears to be a concerted effort to exclude any information from this article that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was the very same dog breed as the Bull and a Terrier, which was just an earlier name for this breed. The vast majority of sources about the Staffordshire Bull Terrier make this claim or claims supporting it. Here are some already discussed in the above section:

• Beaufoy, James (2016). Staffordshire Bull Terriers: a practical guide for owners and breeders. Ramsbury, Wiltshire: The Crowood Press Ltd. ISBN 9781785000973. - The result of the decision to breed more athletic dogs for fighting purposes was the emergence of the so-called 'Bull and Terrier', sometimes referred to as the 'Pit dog'. This is of prime importance in the story of the development of our breed as 150 years later this dog would be recognised by the Kennel Club as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier!
• Coile, D. Caroline (1998). Encyclopedia of dog breeds. Hauppauge: Barron's Educational Series. p. 146. ISBN 0-7641-5097-9. - The result [of crossing Bulldogs with terriers] was aptly called the Bull and Terrier, later to be dubbed the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
• Jones, Arthur Frederick (1964). The treasury of dogs. New York: The Golden Press Inc. p. 165. - He [the Staffordshire Bull Terrier] was first known as the Bull-and-Terrier ...
• Jones, Arthur F.; Hamilton, Ferelith (1971). The world encyclopedia of dogs. New York: Galahad Books. p. 481. ISBN 0-88365-302-8. - Quite apart from the name “Bull-and-Terrier” used freely in literature for many decades [for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier], respected authors like Pierce Egan in the Annals of Sporting (Vol. I.), 1822, refer to result of these crossings for the first time as “Bull Terriers”.
• Morris, Desmond (2001). Dogs: the ultimate dictionary of over 1,000 dog breeds. North Pomfret, VT: Trafalgar Square Publishing. p. 346. ISBN 1-57076-219-8. - The first recorded name of this dog [the Staffordshire Bull Terrier] was the Bull-and-terrier. It has also been referred to as the Bull-dog Terrier, the Pit dog, the Brindle Bull, the Patched Fighting Terrier, the Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Pit-Dog.
• Wilcox, Bonnie; Walkowicz, Chris (1989). Atlas of dog breeds of the world. Neptune City, N.J.: TFH Publications. p. 811. - This [the Staffordshire Bull Terrier] was the original “Bull-and-Terrier.”

And here are some other sources presented above that support this:

• Alderton, David (1987). The dog: the most complete, illustrated, practical guide to dogs and their world. London: New Burlington Books. p. 102. ISBN 0-948872-13-6. - The origins of this breed are far from illustrious. It was developed primarily as a fighting dog in the early nineteenth century from terriers crossed with Bulldogs ...
• Billett, Michael (1994). A history of English country sports. London: Robert Hale Limited. p. 39. ISBN 0-7090-5238-3. - ... a new breed known as the bull terrier, or the 'half-and-half' breed. It was also called the pit dog and eventually the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
• Coile, D. Caroline (27 May 2001). "Back to the time of the gladiator". The Baltimore Sun. Retrieved 18 July 2019. - It [the name pit bull] is a generic designation for several breeds including the American pit bull terrier, which was the first breed registered by the United Kennel Club (UKC) in 1898; its counterpart, the American Staffordshire terrier, which was registered by the American Kennel Club (AKC) in 1936; and the ancestor of both breeds, the Staffordshire bull terrier.
• Fletcher, Walter R. (19 September 1971). "A Breed That Came Up the Hard Way". The New York Times. Retrieved 16 May 2019. - His [the Staffordshire Bull Terrier's] ancestors are believed to be the bulldog and English terrier and he was known as the Pit Dog or Pit Bull Terrier.

And here are what is stated by some kennel clubs who provide any historical overview about the breed:

• the American Kennel Club - The Bull-and-Terrier, the Patched Fighting Terrier, the Staffordshire Pit-dog, and the Brindle Bull are a few of the Stafford’s historical aliases. [14] (I can not currently read any text in this article, but it was copied by me on 3 September 2021)
• the Australian National Kennel Council - The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is the "original Bull Terrier", simply a renamed version of the "Bull and Terrier". [15]
• the Canadian Kennel Club - The Bull and Terrier might have disappeared if not for a group of fanciers led by Joseph Dunn, who appreciated the dogs for their own sakes and persuaded The Kennel Club (England) to recognize the breed as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the name of the English county where the breed was most popular. [16]
• the Société Centrale Canine - It [the Staffordshire Bull Terrier] was created in the 19th century in Staffordshire, by crossbreeding the Bulldog and various terriers [17] (please forgive the machine translation)

This information is being excluded principally because this article published on the American Kennel Club's website states Basically the hybrid of its day, the bull and terrier wasn’t a bona-fide breed. Rather, it was a rough outline, a starting point for several breeds, including the dogs that today we call “pitbulls.”

As long as this information is excluded from the article, and given commensurate weight as accorded by the what the preponderance of the sources state, this article does not present a NPOV about this breed's ancestry. Cavalryman (talk) 03:46, 29 January 2022 (UTC).

I've been trying to stay clear of this, but was pinged. I'm convinced by the documentation provided here by Cavalryman. A couple of observations/questions:

• it's not unusual for a breed to be listed as "extinct" when in fact it continues under a different name
• if the bull and terrier is actually extinct (i.e., all members of that breed or type died without issue), when and by what mechanism did the extinction take place? (it must have been within the last century or so, so we'd expect such an event to be well documented)
• if the Staffie was in some way different from the b-and-t, how were the changes brought about, when and by whom? (again, we'd expect an event in the twentieth century to be fairly thoroughly documented)
• in any rewrite (I've read Cavalryman's draft), we shouldn't refer to the thing by a name it didn't have at the time (better to call them "these dogs", "dogs of this kind" or whatever circumlocution pleases you best).

I haven't read every word of the section above, so please excuse me if all this has already been said. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Cavalryman, the AKC link you can't access is archived here (for others: go down the page to History, then 'Read more'). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:55, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers, many thanks. I should have searched for an archived link. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 12:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC).

A link provided to an article with no author taking responsibility, no references cited as to where this information came from, yet some believe that this information is in some way "reliable". 182.239.146.186 (talk) 23:11, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

• In response to CM's comment that "There appears to be a concerted effort to exclude any information from this article", there definitely is an effort, but I question your allegation that it's a "concerted" one. Of course there is an effort, and I'm surprised more haven't joined in to prevent the addition of confusing fringe material in an article that wears the GA emblem. If the fringe isn't bad enough, it gets even worse when it's based on anecdotal accounts about undocumented crosses that were never considered a breed. Bull and terrier crosses represent a type of dog that dates back to the days of bloodsports in the mid-1800s. DNA evidence proves that bull and terrier crosses are the result of undocumented crossbreeding. What you are trying to convince others is that it's factual information based on verifiable documentation about the breed's origins, when in reality the material is nothing more than passing mention of anecdotal accounts in some dog books which makes it noncompliant with WP:V, WP:FRINGE and WP:OR - and you are challenging what is currently in the article - tagged it as having NPOV issues - when in fact, the material currently in the article is based on DNA evidence and documentation from reputable/reliable breed registries. The AKC History section states (my bold underline): The story of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a relatively brief one in the grand scheme of canine history, but it can be confused by the several different names hung on the breed at various times. The Bull-and-Terrier, the Patched Fighting Terrier, the Staffordshire Pit-dog, and the Brindle Bull are a few of the Stafford’s historical aliases. We do not want to introduce confusing aliases into this GA stamped article which is what you are attempting to do. Furthermore, there is strong DNA evidence - science based evidence - about the Stafford's ancestral origins that is already included in the article. Genomic Analyses Reveal the Influence of Geographic Origin, Migration, and Hybridization on Modern Dog Breed Development clearly states (my bold underline): The ability to determine a time of hybridization for recent admixture events can refine sparse historical accounts of breed formation. For example, when dog fighting was a popular form of entertainment, many combinations of terriers and mastiff or bully-type breeds were crossed to create dogs that would excel in that sport. In this analysis, all of the bull and terrier crosses map to the terriers of Ireland and date to 1860-1870. This coincides perfectly with the historical descriptions that, though they do not clearly identify all breeds involved, report the popularity of dog contests in Ireland and the lack of stud book veracity, hence undocumented crosses, during this era of breed creation (Lee, 1894). Look at the dark blue section of Figure 1 - Cladogram of 161 Domestic Dog Breeds. There are many theories about how various dog breeds began, but theories that are not backed by science or verifiable facts are fringe theories. This article is sourced to science-based information backed by factual documentation published by reputable breed registries and kennel clubs that have for years maintained stud books, conducted DNA testing, and accumulated reliable documentation, all of which was required before putting their stamp on the breed as a purebred. Atsme 💬 📧 01:04, 30 January 2022 (UTC)