User talk:Jimbo Wales

Ten daysTwo weeks

Jimbo,

It's been ten days since the out-of-process action of the T&S department, and since then our community—your community—has been tearing itself apart. (Being a Brit it's a reflection of Brexit, except in this case there is a deafening silence from the powers that be). Since then the community has raised several fundamental problems with the WMF and T&S (and this is aside from the potential COI which has been brushed under the take with the incredibly crass comment by the chair of the WMF Board likening anyone who complained to Gamergaters).

The question is: how little do you want of the community at the end of this? Delaying everything further and further is just pouring petrol on the fires, and the time for clear statements and decisions was some time ago. Are the community's legitimate concerns (and those of the German, Belgian and Chinese projects) constantly going to be pushed onto the back burners? If so, I'll give WP five years tops before it implodes into smithereens - ending with a whimper, not a bang.

WP was built by volunteers donating time, effort and money, and this is seemingly being wasted by silence and paralysis at the WMF. It needs to be rectified sooner, not later. - SchroCat (talk) 19:28, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Jimbo, I have not spent the last ten days ranting and raving and issuing threats but I am deeply concerned about this debacle. I really recommend that you and Doc James make a statement very soon. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:20, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

I am staying away from the discussions out of respect for you and the rest of the board. I think we all look forward to a comprehensive, cogent reply. UninvitedCompany 23:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

We on the board are in active conversations. I think you will receive a comprehensive, cogent reply, but we are looking to be thoughtful, reflective, to examine every aspect of this, and neither allow invalid precedent to be set, nor to set invalid precedent. The best way to avoid a bad outcome is to look to first principles, look at what has gone wrong, and to propose a process for healing but also for building a process that works better in the future.

In those board discussions, I am stating my own views directly and clearly, but it would be inappropriate to share them here and now, because as we all know, there are those who like to engage in "Jimbo said" argumentation, which doesn't clear the air but instead often only creates more heat.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:58, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Jimmy, The longer this is knocked into the long grass, the less likely tempers are to cool. Nothing will happen over the weekend, so the next time they get into the office, we'll be at two weeks after the initial ban - and this is something that (apparently) several people within the organisation had prior knowledge of. I know you all want to put an full statement out to everyone trying to settle everything at the same time, but the view from the coal face is either that you (as an entity) are all stalling, and/or the increasing annoyance at the Jan Eissfeldt's 'non-comments' which don't shed light on a way forward, but (again) only come across as a stalling tactic, while also giving the impression of "you're going to get nothing out of us, you peons". I thought we were supposed to be open, honest and transparent around here (with obvious safety exceptions)? It increasingly feels like the opposite: closed caucuses in smoke-filled back rooms is what the community feels is going on. Trust in T&S (ironically) and Jan Eissfeldt is incredibly low at the moment - it feels like a stitch up job. Some form of interim (but concrete) step towards enlightenment is what is needed in the short term (ie in the early days of w/c 24 June) - and not another Jan Eissfeldt statement that provides little light but generates a lot of community heat.

Jimmy, you need to understand that there is a lot of anger about this - not in defence of Fram as an individual, but in the way T&S/WMF have utterly mishandled this whole affair. There will continue to be speculation on the potential COI and all the other myriad perceived offences of the WMF staff until a decent explanation is forthcoming; with that increasing speculation, the trust and disharmony within the community will grow like a rather unpleasant cancer.

And having no appeals procedure in place? Please - that sort of thing goes against every form of natural justice I can think of. Fine to retain it for the total site-wide eternal SanFranBan for real crimes and real safety, but for a partial, time-limited ban over a perceived infringement in a grey area - that needs a whole different approach, and I'm surprised T&S are so far removed from the realities of WP editing (and common sense) that they can't see that. - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

• "and neither allow invalid precedent to be set, nor to set invalid precedent." This is slightly alarming to read, because it implies that the board (or at least many people on it) recognizes that they screwed up in this case, but that they're worried about backing down because it would "set a bad precedent" - hence the constant, baffling insistence by some representatives of the WMF that WMF bans cannot be appealed, something that is bad policy, demonstrably untrue, directly contradicts your own statements on the subject, and which therefore harms relations with the community every time it is repeated. "I can't back down, it would set a bad precedent!" is an extremely unhealthy attitude for anyone in a position of authority to have. --Aquillion (talk) 19:40, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

• @Aquillion: that could also be read to mean a concern with Fram's actions/comments was bad/invalid grounds for a ban, and would set a bad precedent if it's allowed to stand. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:40, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oh, yes, I absolutely think that Jimbo thinks Fram's ban is a bad precedent (the full context of the quote makes it clear he's talking about bad precedents on "both sides", so to speak.) That gave me the impression that he would prefer to just reverse the ban as a "bad precedent", but that others have their backs up and refuse to allow it because they feel that anything that gives the appearance that WMF bans are appealable, regardless of situation, would itself be a bad precedent; and that he's being diplomatic and trying to find a way through this standoff. I mean this is all reading tea-leaves, obviously, but it fits the behavior and stances taken by the major actors involved... and if it's the case, I hope at least some people in a position to do something about it recognize "never admit fault, it sets a bad precedent" isn't the sort of outlook someone on the board should have. Especially if the precedent they're concerned about is "WMF bans are not appealable", something that is not and will never be true. The WMF will and must back down if they make a severe enough mistake; this cannot be avoided. Everyone involved knows this. Therefore WMF bans are always subject to at least informal appeals, and pretending otherwise only serves to exacerbate tensions with the community. Even Eissfeldt's However, despite efforts by some community members to scrutinize the contributions of Fram and various people who are speculated to have complained to the Foundation, the community does not and cannot have all the facts of this case, meaning that NYB’s condition is not met response to NewYorkBrad, made in the same breath as he tries to insist WMF bans are not appealable, implicitly acknowledges that under the right conditions the WMF would have no choice but to accept an appeal. --Aquillion (talk) 20:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

what's the rush ppl.. really 4 weeks is nothing for anything that matters. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:12, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Nope. If it was important it would be relatively easy to arrange a conversation about all of this. No communication sends a message that this is not important enough to deal with. Justice delayed is justice denied should still mean something here - even if trial in camera and without appeal is someone's idea of a "normal" process - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Yep, three years is nothing for anything that matters. Maybe we'll all get a vote? "We send the EU $50 million every day. Let's spend it on our NHS instead!" Michel Barnier 123 (talk) 21:27, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Like I said before. I see this as just another incident moving our societies toward even more authoritarianism, always with the best intentions and usually some twisted and arcane laws/rules/reasoning to justify how the increased authoritarianism is in our, the masses, best interests. The really interesting and defining part of all this is likely to be, imo, how the community reacts, if at all, when the increased authority of the WMF ( temporary or otherwise ) is explained and justified, as I expect it will be...all in good time. Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

If this was a clear, justifiable and open action that the WMF have policies and pathways for - something planned and known about in advance, not just an off-the-hoof action - then it should not take ten days for this to be investigated and explained. In the global world of modern communication techniques, the most numbing excuse I have seen so far for the lack of answers is "we can't arrange a telephone call". That's fine; we'll just rip ourselves apart a little further and sow more seeds of distrust and disharmony waiting for someone to be able to schedule a phone call on something they are picking up a salary or expenses for. - SchroCat (talk) 19:40, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

You know, the other part of this is that even if people find themselves in more of a master/slave relationship in any situation, e.g. citizen vs. government, employee vs. boss, editor vs. WMF, this is the norm throughout human history and maybe we have just been lucky enough to have been part of 1 of the temporary ages of enlightenment? If this trend, imo, toward dramatically increasing Big Brother authoritarianism and castration of freedoms of speech, thought, association, and press ( Assange ), is too strong to resist successfully, there will always be the opportunity for people individually and collectively to do good works and still be considered a "good slave". Sometimes people just have to accept the reality that people/we are coming under unreasonable authority and make the best of it. Lots of Chinese people have become wealthy, arguably more freer, and perhaps quite happy over the past 30 years and yet, has the level of authority really decreased that much? Maybe a bad analogy, I'm just saying, sometimes people throughout history have had to accept being pushed around by various authorities and make the best of it or run away from it. Could be Wikipedians' turn.Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:55, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm just wondering why we expect the board to say something quicker than we expect arbcom to make a statement.. Considering the way they operate isn't too different. People doing something a couple of hours on the side. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:08, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

As I’ve said above, as this is supposed to have been a planned action by the Office, they should not need to investigate 101 actions by individuals: they should already have done this and be able to justify their actions rather quickly and clearly. Arbcom have to do the investigative process before they make a statement. Two weeks to explain actions they should have details of at hand is 10 days too long. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

@TheDJ: Didn't ArbCom say they were waiting to see what the Board would say before deciding to take the case? Benjamin (talk) 23:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

• Jimmy, I think your "looking to be thoughtful, reflective, to examine every aspect of this, and neither allow invalid precedent to be set, nor to set invalid precedent" approach is wise and constructive (and I thank you for it). But do you think that, while you (and the rest of the board) are working to get your "comprehensive, cogent reply" together, it is helpful for Jan Eissfeldt to be issuing further "We're in charge, we can't be questioned, and it remains unappealable because we say so" responses? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

• I think that one takeaway from this is that Eissfeldt should not be talking to the community as a representative of the WMF in the future, at least not during a crisis; he does seem to have a flair for pouring oil on troubled fires and a very poor understanding of what sort of things you should say to get freaked-out Wikipedians to calm down. --Aquillion (talk) 19:43, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

• While his responses have been ... Bad, I do want to ensure that he at least gets credit for stepping out from behind the role account. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
• Could be worse: it could be the chair of the WMF comparing anyone who complains to a Gamergater. I couldn't imagine anything that crass... oh, wait... - SchroCat (talk) 22:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• Jimbo, we're now past the two week mark and the silence from the Board is leading to higher tempers and calls to increasingly rash actions. Fram's tools were returned to him last night, then removed, and we've lost yet another admin over this whole mess (what's are we now... 10 Admins down during that period?) You (collectively as a Board) need to start making some strong steps towards resolving matters NOW before things start going even worse. There are calls for a forked site, calls for Admins to stop deleting vandalism or BLP violations, people leaving and an increasing number of Admins handing in their tools. It's time that things need to happen from the WMF side before it gets more messy – and not just another Jan Eidsffelt statement: they are so low of content and high on condescension that we seem to lose more people every time he posts something. – SchroCat (talk) 10:19, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
• Hi Jimbo. During times of crisis it is quite normal for the CEO / leadership of the company to make a strong statement of reassurance. The silence from the top at the WMF has been defeaning. The only official statements have come from rank and file employees and one mid-level manager. The effect of this is that I do not feel like the leadership of the WMF cares about this issue (which I'm sure isn't true). The WMF response to the Fram incident so far reminds me of the United Airlines CEO's first statement after the United Express Flight 3411 incident, which was completely tone deaf and counterfactual. The CEO quickly released another statement a few days later that went a long way to reassuring customers that the company was taking the right steps. Incidents such as this rountinely end up as case studies in business administration programs, where students have to craft an appropriate response. That the WMF is not able to do this is not encouraging. Thank you in advance for taking this into consideration. Mr Ernie (talk) 09:03, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Did you establish the current version of WP:OFFICE?

Jimbo, WP:OFFICE, which since 2017 has stated that some bans are unappealable, says at the top that it was, "established by Jimmy Wales." Is that accurate? EllenCT (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

It’s the same old thing. Draconian rules are made to confront horrible crimes, but they end up being applied to misdemeanors, especially when committed by political enemies. T&S seems appropriate for handling things that could turn into criminal or civil litigation. However, when the problem is an administrator using naughty words like “fuck” and “bullshit” too often, that’s better left to ArbCom. There has been no indication that this Fram incident needed to be handled by WMF. It looks like some insider got angry at Fram and decided to do them in via non-appealable process. Jimmy, I challenge you to prove otherwise. Initially I supported WMF and told people to calm down, but the more I dig into it, the worse it looks. Jehochman ^Talk 23:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

I reached a similar but slightly different conclusion, especially in light of the Belgian incident. I think the very concept of T&S was fundamentally flawed from the get-go. It's ridiculous to ask us to TRUST T&S simply because they were trusted members of the community before. When you elevate a volunteer into a paid employee with a narrow mandate, they can hardly be expected to act for the community at the expense of the mandate. From the Belgian incident, it is clear the mandate of T&S is to protect WMF from any trouble, however minor, however ridiculous. Obviously, this has meant T&S cares not about due process, nor about being fair to long-time contributors. If something could possibly end up giving them a headache in the future, they excise it (it always seems to mean involved contributors) mercilessly. In other words, a single contributor to wikipedia is ridiculously expendableto them, forget innocence vs. guilt-- that doesn't even feature into the decision process of T&S.

I just started contributing to wikipedia,and for one reason alone. I wanted to give back to this community but have not dollars. I spent a whole day reading through the relevant documents in-wiki and that is the conclusion I came to. So, if I reached a wrong one, something's gone horribly wrong in the handling of this affair. (I am reserving judgement on whether Fram did or not deserve what he got, that's not even the issue here, although it is somewhere else.) So, as above, a challenge is extended to prove otherwise. Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 03:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Glad to see you coming around on this, Jehochman. It wouldn't hurt for you to go back and amend your comments in the community discussion elsewhere (I had to really bite my tongue when I read them...). Jimmy, where are we at on this? Has the ED even been informed of the situation? Has the board given her direction, and if so, what? Carrite (talk) 05:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the ED is aware. The board is still discussing with each other and with staff. I'm a participant in this but not in a position to say when it will come to a conclusion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:18, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

They might be giants. That is the best guidance I can give you. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 13:50, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Oh, there is another bit you could use. Always remember that a fork led by you, would get a lot of publicity at the very least, and is always the nuclear option as founder that you have at your disposal, if the foundation is to recalcicrant (sp?). -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 16:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Cimon Avaro: A Wikipedia founder tried that already. It didn't do well. Benjamin (talk) 23:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Bungling incompetence

Trust & Safety Flowchart

Was this FRAMBAN sanction approved by a lawyer? What I see of Jans experience looks pretty thin. He’s not a lawyer, he isn’t a native English speaker nor a linguist, and he’s a recent university graduate who studied philosophy. That’s very nice but probably doesn’t qualify him as an expert in the matter which he ruled upon. Most importantly, he was not selected by the community, so none of us have any reason to trust him. I think ArbCom would have been a vastly superior entity to decide his case. If WMF receives an anonymous complaint, why can’t they refer the matter anonymously to ArbCom for resolution? Why did they choose to bungle it themselves? Jehochman ^Talk 11:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Without commenting at this moment on any of the rest of it, I can say that I do not know, and don't personally consider it particularly relevant or interesting, whether legal was consulted beforehand. I don't think legal is the right avenue for any of us to be thinking about how to improve things in this or in related circumstances.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts. When personal conduct of an employee is an issue, it is common to check with legal to make sure the response is appropriate, proportionate, equitable and free of bias. I know a volunteer isn't an employee but I’d like to think we maintain the same high standards. You weren’t sanctioning an obvious vandal. This was a highly trusted member of the community. This should have been checked and rechecked to make sure it was appropriate and a clear explanation should have been made available from the start. If you can’t explain something clearly, then you don’t understand it well enough yourself. I'm also concerned that WMF encroached on ArbCom's mandate and was much worse than ArbCom would have been in handling this matter. Jehochman ^Talk 14:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

There is a flowchart (File:Trust and Safety Office action workflow.png, uploaded 6/17 by a T&S employee) implying that WMF Legal is a mandatory stop before blocking. Jan posted it at the top of their 6/17 reply to the "community response" discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:43, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

That flowchart requires at least 7 or 8 people to approve any action ("at least" because one station is the "T&S team"). Does anyone really believe that all the upper layers can spend significant time on a single case? Especially if the Executive Director has to approve every single action? Either essentially no case makes it through the lower levels (which means there is very little value provided, and which opens the question why this particular case made it), or managerial stack is so swamped with cases that they cannot provide meaningful review. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! The flowchart is missing the most important step. "Is this something that could be handled by the local ArbCom? If so, send it there." WMF should only handle those cases that the local ArbComs can't handle (e.g. legal entanglements, criminal harassment, etc.). Jehochman ^Talk 19:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Couldn't that be part of the decision point "Is an Office action recommended"? ☆ Bri (talk) 01:29, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I read that step as merely evaluating whether the complaint potentially has merit. There should a second diamond-shaped box that asks, "Is there a local ArbCom that could handle this?"—"Yes, send it to them."—"No, proceed with office action." This is good for several reasons: it maintains local autonomy, it allows local customs and culture to be respected, and it is more scalable than trying to handle everything centrally. On the flip side, there are small Wikipedias that don't have an ArbCom who can really benefit from WMF support. We should encourage reform of the process to make it better. Jehochman ^Talk 12:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Stephan Schulz exhibits a common misunderstanding of these simple flowcharts in assuming that each process is carried out by a different person. In a more sophisticated model, each process is allocated to specific organisational roles, and one individual may be assigned to one or more of those roles. So there is no indication at all of how many people may be involved, or even in the case of the ED who exactly fulfilled that role in a particular case. Eric Corbett 12:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I've spend some time in and with organisations with documented processes. In a process like this, multiple oversight is the aim. You can have more than one person per box, but if you assign more than one box to the same person, you're doing something wrong. That said, in my experience, such charts are often drawn up by the least busy person with minimal oversight or input from the persons supposed to use the process, are then put in a folder for certification, and largely ignored after that... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I agree, I worked in the court system and most lawyers are adversarial, still, in 2019, by nature and training. A good mediator might help, if WMF and community both would agree to mediation....actually, this might be a perfect set up for a great mediation. Nocturnalnow (talk) 21:17, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: If consulting legal is as unimportant as you say, why is it a necessary step in the Trust and Safety workflow? Benjamin (talk) 00:08, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

I tried editing your userpage and it didn't work.

Hey Jimbo, great fan of Wikipedia here! I saw your invitation to edit your page and decided to give it a try. A couple days ago, I slipped in a "the". It had stuck but somewhere it got lost and then another user added it again, so it's still there. So, I tried to do something bolder and changed about 2.5 words. Got immediately caught by the wikipolice. They don't even discuss the merit of the edit. All they say is I can't change someone else's words. I know it's not good to change someone's comment for it might accidentally end up changing their meaning too. But, I genuinely believe your invitation to edit implied exception to that. So, what do you think? Should I take the matter further to try and get in edits in there, or is your invitation just there for aesthetics? (No offence intended, just don't know how else to put it). You have my eternal respect for giving the world Wikipedia!Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 13:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

That is regrettable, on my review I think it was a small enough change that it didn't change the meaning of what was written. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 14:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, but it did spark off a very amusing edit-war over 'parallelism', so not all bad... -- Begoon 14:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I firmly believe it should be called "Rhombusism." This is just one of my outré grammar positions. I'm working on a pamphlet. Dumuzid (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps we could run both names side-by-side for a while...? -- Begoon 15:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I didn't look at all the edits reverted back and forth, I'm glad that I didn't revert to it myself now that I see that. Your comments made me have a good laugh Begoon thanks. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I recently read that invitation to edit. But upon reading the page, there really isn't anything much to edit, since it's just personal comments, "contacting me" and "see also". starship.paint (talk) 04:56, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Jimbo says that the only thing he worries about is his page drowning in the pretties of wiki-markup. So, I thought that meant we could even add sections, since he explicitly mentions adding information that others would find useful, although I can't think of one right now. I'd thought the bonus challenge for any interested editor would be to think of an edit that would be noticeable to "bring a smile" to Jimbo and not big enough to undermine Jimbo's preferences on how he likes his own userpage to be. It took me like a dozen readings to find two words that I could edit without significant impact. So, yup... Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 06:00, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Usedtobecool, you have the right to edit Jimbo's words if you think that is a good idea, and other editors have an equal and equivalent right to revert back to Jimbo's actual words. That is the dynamic of Jimbo's userpage. What exactly are you complaining about? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:17, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Cullen328, I am happy to clarify. My complaint is that the reverts weren't arguing the merit of the edit. In other words, Jimbo's invitation looks to be intended to demonstrate the power of "wiki". That anyone can contribute to an wiki article and discuss with the community on how to make it better. It's not really a good example of wiki at work if edits can be justified as reverting back to original words on a personal page. If it's always going to be original words of the user, the invitation is indeed there just for aesthetics. I have no problem with it being there for aesthetics, as it is the flagship userpage of the community. And that is exactly what I was asking Jimbo. If wikipedia guidelines on changing other people's words apply to this page as stringently as everywhere else, the invitation to edit is indeed just there for a different wiki-political point and I should stop trying (which I might do anyway. I had thought it would be an interesting experiment in the beginning but it's not really as productive as working in the mainspace, if it fails to add to the wiki-political point that I thought Jimbo was trying to make when I read it.) Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 06:41, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

May be, I misunderstood because Jimbo's invitation doesn't explicitly mention the distinction. It could be that an edit that sticks is supposed to be something other than changing words on the sentences in first person. But I doubt it. Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 06:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Eureka! I know how to improve the page! It's time to have more pictures! Yay! If our founder is a narcissist it will bring a smile to his face! (or maybe if he isn't, it still will) starship.paint (talk) 08:00, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Careful! If the definition improves at that rate, when you get to 2019, he'll be able to jump out of the screen and ... Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 08:14, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I am already reverted by Stephen, who wrote that there is no indication that Jimbo wants pictures. But Jimbo invited everyone to edit his page... he trusts us... :( Why not let Jimbo revert it himself if he doesn't like it... starship.paint (talk) 08:17, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Bummer! Now I wanna see an admin revert it, maybe mention it on the summary, in case, by chance, the conservatives aren't familiar with the username. Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 08:19, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Gah! Now the wiki-links I've added have been reverted! :( This is Wikipedia, it should have wiki-links! starship.paint (talk) 08:29, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Jimbo, would you like more pictures and wiki-links? :) starship.paint (talk) 08:30, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I am the one who reverted your edits. People don't need definitions for words like those. Masum Reza^📞 08:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Why not? We have pages on them. We don't need pages on them, then! starship.paint (talk) 08:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Then let me ask you something. Do you always define or explain those words to others when you use those words? Masum Reza^📞 08:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

No, but speaking isn't wiki-ing, and wiki-ing isn't speaking. We provide wiki-links to help whoever is interested! :) Even if only one person clicks on those links, we have helped! starship.paint (talk) 08:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Usedtobecool To be fair, I don't have an issue with changing other's words based on what I think Jimbo's intention was we he invited others to edit the page. I stated, "if you prefer 'having founded' then this part should change to 'has offered' to maintain parallelism" and thought your subsequent (and grammatically correct) change, while probably not the original wording, was perfectly acceptable. Orville1974^talk 13:25, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Orville1974:, oh I know. I even credited you in my subsequent edit. Your edit was highly appreciated then, because without yours, I wouldn't have made anymore edits. I don't know if you realise this, but your edit was different from Jimbo's version too. Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 13:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Jimbo hasn't edited his userpage for seven years. This is that it looked like the last time he did: [1]. WJBscribe (talk) 13:57, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@WJBscribe:, Thanks for that. That version still has "founding" and "has offered". Do we know if it was him or someone else who wrote that?Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 14:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@WJBscribe: - I'm going to take that version as an endorsement of that 2011 photo! More photos! starship.paint (talk) 14:03, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Wow, what a difference! I'm surprised the founding/offered sentence has lasted that long. I wonder how many times the social media link farm in the infobox has been inserted and removed, but I'm not curious enough to actually bother looking. Orville1974^talk 14:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Usedtobecool: - check out [2] starship.paint (talk) 14:14, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I found it! [3] This is his chosen photo! It must stay! starship.paint (talk) 14:11, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

This might amuse... So it turns out that Jimbo never added the sentence about being proud to have founded Wikipedia! Looks like it was a bold addition by an IP editor back in July 2010 [4], which he presumably liked and kept... WJBscribe (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Even more amusingly, the IP was a vandal who may have meant the sentence ironically. They went on to add something libelous (now rev deleted) to another person's userpage and then got blocked! WJBscribe (talk) 15:18, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Maybe it was Jimbo editing while logged out! Usedtobecool - go try your wording again! starship.paint (talk) 15:19, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Starship.paint:, once more unto the breach, my friend. Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 16:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I hope that sticks! I also re-added a tweet Jimbo found funny but an IP later removed! I then found more and more names because that’s Jimbo’s sense of humour! Hahahaha! starship.paint (talk) 00:40, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Moxy: - why are you anti-fun and anti-knowledge :( [5] (1) The picture was added by Jimbo himself in 2004. [6] (2) The tweet was added by Jimbo himself in 2011. [7] (3) Since that's his sense of humour (you apparently found it weird, but he apparently liked that tweet), I wrote more names, because Jimbo said I trust that you will add something here that would make me really smile, inform me or many other individuals. Why don't you want to make Jimbo smile, inform him or many other individuals :( (4) There's no point to Jimbo's invite to edit his page if there's nothing substantial to be edited! starship.paint (talk) 04:08, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars#User:Jimbo Wales.--Moxy 🍁 04:27, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Moxy:, I read the section you linked - it's about colour and founder. That's not what I posted above. Shall we be pro-fun and pro-knowledge please :) Let's make his page more interesting :) starship.paint (talk) 04:34, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Usedtobecool: I certainly share your frustration and agree that Jimbo's invitation to edit seems a bit disingenuous to new editors who make edits only to be reverted. I edited it to be more factually accurate a couple years ago, when I was still just starting out, and got called a troll by Jimbo himself! Fortunately, (or perhaps unfortunately), I'm not so easily discouraged. Welcome to the wonderful world of Wikipedia. Benjamin (talk) 03:12, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

@Benjaminikuta: - I wouldn't say it's disingenuous unless Jimbo himself is doing the reverting. It seems that the talk page watchers are way too serious here. There's virtually nothing to edit! starship.paint (talk) 04:37, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of silliness, here's an old quote from Jimbo: "Mediawiki. It's free! You can run it on your laptop, and you can run the 4th most popular website in the world with it. It's joyful and delicious! It likes ponies!" [8] In these truly trying times, don't you ever long for the simpler times long past? Benjamin (talk) 04:11, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Even more evidence that Jimbo has a sense of humor. Why so serious?! starship.paint (talk) 04:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Everything I did...

This weekend I was out on Lake Pepin in my sailboat. Alone. I was thinking of Wikipedia.

I thought of everything I did to lobby for the creation of the arbitration committee, to make it successful, to strike the balance between transparancy and effectiveness. I thought of the work I did as an early OTRS volunteer to ensure that it was the community and not the paid staff dealing with routine requests. I thought of the community backlash I endured from dealing with an administrator conduct matter where I could not defend myself without disclosing confidential information. I thought of all the times I turned the other cheek, and of all the civility discussions with Anthere, and the efforts to set limits, and lead by example, and to be the light for others to follow. I thought, in short, of everything I did to further the goals of a self-governing community.

And I thought of how we are now on the cusp of the moment where that no longer matters.

Peace

UninvitedCompany 19:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Very thoughtful of you indeed. However, I have been absent for a while, so what “cusp” is it exactly which is almost upon us? Giano (talk) 19:33, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Aah well, that is the question. Difficult to speculate fully as my crystal ball has gone very cloudy... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:02, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

It’s clearly very complex, rather like the people, in the section below, who appear to be supporting a statement which doesn’t exist. I’ve always said The WMF is staffed by very odd people - you have to pay well to get the best people and I expect they don’t. If you need my advice Jimbo, I am back now. Giano (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Support

+1 The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

+1 Jehochman ^Talk 19:32, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

+1 –Davey2010^Talk 19:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

+1 Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:58, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

+1 yes, I have been thinking similar thoughts to this Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

+1 Carrite (talk) 06:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• What exactly are you referring to? And what's up with this weird header? Masum Reza^📞 23:12, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• It is an expression of support for the statement above. - SchroCat (talk) 23:37, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Do you mean Uninvited Company’s statement or another one? Giano (talk) 10:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Giano, this one by Uninvited Company. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:17, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

+1 — Ched :  ?  — 15:16, 25 June 2019 (UTC) (to clarify: I agree that it no longer matters what efforts we make - the site will become what the WMF says it will become.)

• No, it will not! There were far worse battles with the hidden powers and creatures of the night back in the early 2000s. We just have a new generation now, who need to learn the same lessons. I for one haven’t forgotten how just speaking German made you an enemy of the office. Soldier on and all will be well. Giano (talk) 17:56, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

• I'm certainly interested in the how. Even if I have to figure it out on my own, I'm fine with that as long as I have a link to start following. From my perspective, the new generation appear to have the servers in their (or their parents basement) these days and are capable of writing the closing chapters in the manner that they so choose. Still - I'm far from all-knowing, so I'm certainly willing to do a bit of reading ... or follow a bit of direction coming from a well reasoned source. That being said - it's great to see you still about Giano - I hope all is well in real life with you and yours. — Ched :  ?  — 20:10, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Speaking as a "creature of the night" - so far as Jimbo is concerned anyway - I think that Giano is quite right. It's very easy to roll over, but it's not very seemly, and in the end achieves nothing except having to roll over again and again in the future. Eric Corbett 20:16, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Thought you should know, User:WJBScribe just resigned and retired.

People are trying to talk him out of it; Hopeful of success in that regard, but I'm simultaneously skeptical. There has been too much blood-letting associated with WP:FRAM and there has to be a better way to deal with these matters. Not assigning blame, but certainly something to think about at a Foundation level, and looking forward to demonstrable leadership from you and others. Promethean (talk) 08:32, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

How did the events lead up to this? Benjamin (talk) 08:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

If you'd like to know more, feel free to head on over to WP:BCN, WP:ARBCOM (the WJBScribe case) and WP:FRAM. Those pages should tell you all there is to know, but be warned, it's a war and peace epic of mammoth scale. I'd attempt to summarise it, but it will be more neutral if you read the discussion for yourself, and I'd encourage others to do the same. Promethean (talk) 08:42, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I feel the root issue is that T&S is too disconnected from the enwiki community to serve us effectively. Even if the ban is justified, it's clear they lack the community trust needed to behave this way; obviously WJBScribe's reactions aren't helping, but it's a symptom of a larger breakdown that is ultimately on T&S. Their constant insistence that they can put some of their actions beyond appeal is also a major factor (it basically froze the process and prevented any sort of bridge-mending after it was clear they'd screwed up, at least in an implementation sense); IMHO if any one change comes out of this, it'd be removing the part of WP:OFFICE that allows that. If T&S is going to involve itself in community decisions like this, some semblance of an avenue for appeals is necessary for the health and sanity of the community; they cannot simply insist over and over again that they never make mistakes and expect the community to trust them. Voluntarily giving up that aspect of WP:OFFICE (which was clearly something T&S was trying desperately to cling to in some of their comments on the case) would also demonstrate how seriously they take the problem and help rebuild some of the trust that was lost here. --Aquillion (talk) 08:50, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

It's quite a lot to read, but I'll give it a go... But I don't think a summary would be a bad idea. More generally, I think the sheer size of Wikipedia discussions are a significant barrier to many people who would like to participate or perhaps just be informed, but aren't ready to dedicate so much time and effort to reading the massive archives. Benjamin (talk) 08:54, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

The quick summaries are here. --Aquillion (talk) 09:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I know, but something a bit more detailed would be nice. Or at least some catalogue of all the discussions worth reading, amid all the sound and fury, signifying nothing. Benjamin (talk) 09:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

The Signpost will have a summary in the issue coming in a few days. Links to items under development at WP:NEWSROOM. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:24, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Bri: I love The Signpost and I am extremely grateful for the work of all the editors. Benjamin (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

No point reading it in detail - in essence the active community is polarising into two factions over this and tensions are escalating. @Jimbo Wales: I have not seen wheel-warring like this before.. Each day this is left risks further escalation /resignations/bad blood. Recommend in first instance extracting a promise from WMF T&S commitee not to perform this in future without consultation from arbitration committee. That would be a great first step in de-escalating. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:39, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

This has been going on for weeks now and just gets worse and worse. I hate seeing it. For God's sake Jimbo DO SOMETHING.Smeat75 (talk) 12:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I echo Smeat75 (talk · contribs) words. WP:BN has never been this active with admin/crat resignations. The WP:BAG is losing members over this. We're losing dozens of the top / most passionate editors. It's one thing to not give more weight to vested editors in consensus building. It's quite another to hemorrhage them through a self-inflicted wound. It's been over two weeks now. We need to hear something beyond 'discussions are ongoing'. A statement of intent. A summary of where things stand. SOMETHING. (Not necessarily from you specifically, but some form of statement from the WMF.) Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

• RE: "I feel the root issue is that T&S is too disconnected from the enwiki community to serve us effectively." — It seems to me root issue is that T&S feels we are too disconnected from them to serve WMF effectively. Carrite (talk) 21:21, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Forthcoming FRAM-related case at ARBCOM

Jimbo, can Fram be allowed to participate in the forthcoming ARBCOM case please? I've laid out my reasons at WP:ARC and made at proposal at WT:A/R. ARBCOM tell me that they don't have the authority to allow Fram to participate and that permission from OFFICE is required. I believe you also have the authority to grant such permission, but failing that, you are in a position to at least ask the various WMF members to consider the request and give an answer one way or the other. Thanks for your attention. Mjroots (talk) 12:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I will raise the issue. As you can imagine, I'm trying not to cause any additional problems by making any firm declarations of what I am and am not empowered to do in my traditional role in English Wikipedia, but I can indicate that I share the view that I could do that - or should be able to do that. One reason we have kept some vestiges of a "constitutional monarch" system is precisely to have pressure relief valves for highly unusual situations. One reason I haven't tried to be forceful with it is that I don't believe in it as anything other than a safety mechanism. So long as other avenues exist for me to try to help everyone reach reconciliation and find a solution in which almost everyone says "we are now in a better place than we were when this whole mess started" - I'm going to try.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Have you the remotest understanding of the term “constitutional monarch?” Were you in any sense a constitutional monarch this situation would be comparable with the under footman at Buckingham Palace dissolving both Houses of Parliament of his own accord, while Queen Elizabeth sat idly by. All I can see here is a “monarch” failing to understand why the revolting peasants won’t eat cake - and we all know how that sad story ended. Giano (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Your comments are unhelpful and entirely lacking in insight. Please move along and do something else other than insult me, it's boring.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:45, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Ha! Wait are you being serious right now? PackMecEng (talk) 20:18, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, much appreciated. Mjroots (talk) 15:13, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

• Hello, Jimmy. I've been researching this matter and have found publicly available material, on wiki, that would be sufficient to start an arbitration case about Fram and possibly another administrator. I don't know if the incidents I'm looking at may be the same ones investigated by WMF, but it seems likely that they are. My request is that Fram be unblocked to participate in a case and that ArbCom handles this the way they normally would. They can decide whether to handle the case publicly or in-camera. Better late than not at all, I think. Either ArbCom will confirm the WMF findings and sanction, or recommend that they be altered. WMF would, I hope, take ArbCom's findings as sound advice and consider any recommended modification. I am also concerned that WMF may not have dug as deeply as we would, and might have missed other players, such as that second administrator, who may need to be warned to change their approach. Do you this approach might help calm the drama and prevent further losses? Jehochman ^Talk 15:25, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
  • I think we are beyond the merit of an individual case. It's a fundamental constitutional question. Is this still the self-governing community that has built a great encyclopaedia and created the WMF to run the servers, or is this the WMFs playpen, in which they decide what happens and whom they let in to play, with no transparency and no accountability? I signed up for the first back in 2003. I might sign up for the second at my usual consulting rate of EUR 250/h (travel time will be billed). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
    • Of course, we are a self-governing community, even though from time to time users demonstrate they lack self-governance. Nothing about the action in issue changes one iota of what I may write in an article yesterday, today, or tomorrow completely under my own and the community's self-governance. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Stephan Schulz, really nicely put. One fundamental problem is that we don't have a constitution, so everything is devolving into customary ownership law, in which the "legal owners" are taking control of "their" website. As the mass of money becomes bigger it is exerting more and more gravitational pull in this direction. There is probably still time for an extraordinary intervention by the WMF board to get some written rules in place delineating the spheres of the two institutions, the various language collectives and the centralized WMF agency, but time is not unlimited and the situation is highly unstable, as the spate of administrative resignations indicates. Carrite (talk) 21:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Carrite, you have just defined the fundamental problem and the fundamental solution. Lack of a constitution, and our need for one. North8000 (talk) 11:32, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

The question to me seems to be: do we really do not have a constitution, or is it just not codified, like the one of the UK? The community has, over time, come up with different solutions for different problems: be it policies, essays, you name it etc......all in all the apporaches sometimes took their time, but work remarkably well overall (some glitches and hunches included, of course). All of these factors and things contribute to a very specific Wikipedia-culture, which, in its entirety, might actually add up to something which might be considered an uncodified constitution, so to speak. And so I think the community, in greater numbers than have participated until now, needs to speak up, loudly, as to what it wants. Lectonar (talk) 12:33, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

I think of our constitutional arrangements as being very like those in the UK. A broad array of written and unwritten rules, policies, guidelines, and traditions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:39, 27 June 2019 (UTC)