Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals pages, or - for assistance - at the help desk, rather than here, if at all appropriate. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

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This forum lacks a lot of features that other sites have

1. Where is the private message feature?

2. The ignore feature?

3. A way to block people we don't want from posting on our wall.

4. Have to type those colons when you reply to someone and then they can edit your posts (in talk).

TCO (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, but we'll likely never get these features. There are a substantial number of curmudgeonly contributors here who seem to have an irrational hatred of the social goodness that every modern forum software package has implemented for years. Everything that you're bringing up has already been developed and is freely available (in php, too!), yet those who do development work seem to agree with the people here who are against any improvements... it's frustrating, but I for one (and everyone else that feels the same, AFAIK) just let it go any more.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:45, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

That's because it is not a forum but a page for discussing matters arising from the co-operative writing of Wikipedia. If you want a social forum I daresay there are a lot of them about. Therefore we do not have a wall or any of the other features you mention as they are not really applicable here. Britmax (talk) 21:49, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The email this user is a private message. A considerable majority of established accounts have an established email account. An "ignore" feature - who? where?. I'm also fairly certain that "selective blocking" is not yet technically possible, even if you want it to be. Is #4 like WP:LiquidThreads? It's attracted some criticism, along with positive points. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:50, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, but how do I friend someone on this site?TCO (talk) 22:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

You don't this is not a social networking site. GB fan (talk) 22:20, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

It is certainly possible to make friends on this site. (I have anyway.) You can watch their pages and comment there; and they can do the same with you. It just isn't possible to declare to declare that friendship in any software manner, but what would be the point? What would you gain from that that you can't already do? LadyofShalott 00:49, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

See what I mean? :)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:51, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

You kids get off my lawn! ;) LadyofShalott 00:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

lol

Look, I'm with you guys (and gals) in the idea that this isn't a social networking site, but there's a good reason for the little features that social networking sites use to enable socialization. Wikipedia's culture could use a healthy dose of social medicine regardless. There's a "corporate culture" here (maybe institutional memory would be more accurate?), largely expressed by the "that doesn't help the encyclopedic content" expression, that is fairly anti-social. I really feel that the significant issues that we have with civility are largely a side effect of the lack of good socialization mechanisms. So, in a somewhat roundabout way, I'd make a case that improving out social toolbox would help build the encyclopedia by allowing us to work together much better than we currently do. We could easily have improved social tools without getting rid of Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not MySpace as well.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:11, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I am going to put a thing on my page where people can declare they are my friends. It will become a trend. Just like how I figured out who my talk page stalkers were.TCO (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Cool, I say go for it! :)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:11, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't want us to connect to FB. But I do think PMs and better discussion threads make sense. I mean the colon typing BLOWS. We can improve the things internally. I mean my Nutrisystem experience...there were awesome boards there with all kinds of features. Totally walled garden. But very good community and helpful to weight loss. And fun. And they thought I was the strangest poster in the history of tha site. But I lost 70 pounds. I mean...WTF...four tildas? Who came up with that crap?TCO (talk) 01:51, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

There are some problems with emphasizing the social side. If you've got two editors who are wikifriends, and both of them happen to offer similar opinions in a content dispute, then we get accusations about WP:MEAT puppets, that one is mindlessly agreeing with the other, that they're WP:Tag teaming the dispute, etc. It's apparently easier for some peoplel to say, "Those horrible, unfair conspirators are tag-teaming me!" than to believe, "Huh, eight editors at the WP:External links/Noticeboard believe that my personal website is a bad choice for an external link in this article, and I'm the only person in favor of it. Maybe that means that it isn't appropriate." Having an official "friends" system would likely make this sort of distraction more common, because with the current system, you'd just have to know that they were friends, and with an official system, you could easily find out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:43, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Two counter arguments for you: the fact that it's not possible to see who people are "friends" with tends to lend credibility to the idea of "cabals"... paranoia works best in environments where there's incomplete information, after all. More importantly, to me at least, is that I believe that a more accessible social system on Wikipedia itself will help with the problems that you're describing rather than make them worse, partially for the reason that I started with above. We already try to get people to discuss issues with each other when a conflict arises, because we came to realize early on that the easiest way resolve disputes is to get people talking to each other. If people were willing and more easily able to talk to each other in general (about the encyclopedia, in some fashion, of course) then there will generally be fewer disputes that get started. There will be problems of course, but there are problems already (and I think that they're more serious, personally).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean by "colon typing"? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 18:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Didn't you notice what character you typed (twice) in front of your reply? :)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually four tildes (4 x ~) Britmax (talk) 20:44, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but I don't see that as "blowing", and therefore didn't understand the apparent outrageous problem it causes. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 19:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Neither do I. Would looking at the time and printing out our name in longhand whenever signing a post be easier? Or what? Britmax (talk) 19:32, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

He's not talking about using four tildes when he's referring to "colon typing" (although that's part of the problem). He's talking about having to manually format replies by typing the ':' character. MediaWiki is good for article content, but suffers significantly in discussions, in comparison to modern web based forum systems or even mailing lists. That you have to type four tildes at all (let alone "printing out our name in longhand"... what the hell kind of idea is that?!?) is somewhat ridiculous. All of this is well trodden territory, by the way. As a matter of fact, there was a whole Usability Project Wikimedia project devoted to these sorts of issues, although they didn't seem to get anything done...
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:44, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm totally on board with the notion that 4 tildes deserves a WTF response. This is 2011 and we have computers. One's that could do the signing for us. Yes, someone would have to create the rules - sign talk pages, not article pages, don't sign if the user has opted out of signing. It's not that hard. We have bots with a thousand times more complicated rules. There is no excuse for not automating the signing. There are enough rules to remember without this completely artificial, completely unnecessary rule. In solidarity, I'm not signing.

Signbot (talk · contribs) only signs posts of users with fewer than 500 posts (I think that's the threshold. It's close, at least). :)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:18, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

God damn! Have any of you all every been on a normal forum? Like anything post about 1995?? Where you have an avatar, have a signature, have your own space for your post that others can't edit into, have ability to make paragraphs, don't have everything run together in edit mode? I mean SHEESH. I'm DUMB. I'm OLD. And I still wonder where you all are LIVING. TCO (talk) 01:23, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that 1-Wikipedia is a social network site and 2-there are paid programmers. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 01:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikimedia does pay programmers. wmf:Staff#Technology lists a few and there are also some contractors as well. But yes, I agree with your first point. Killiondude (talk) 04:57, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I feel like we are being trolled. But if you want to contact someone privately, their user page has a link that lets you email them, if they have an enrolled email address. Not everybody chooses to enroll one. 69.111.195.157 (talk) 01:37, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we're being trolled or TCO is oblivious to how Wikipedia works. In either case, it's disconcerting that they have several advanced user rights. Killiondude (talk) 04:57, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

In case anyone's not aware of it, the community could choose to install the LiquidThreads extension for discussion pages such as this one in order to address many issues above. – Adrignola talk 04:05, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Has there been any talk about a trial here on en? I think it would make sense to try it out only for User talk: pages on an opt-in basis, as long as bots don't freak out. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 23:35, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we need friends lists and PMs and the like, but an easier 'reply to' button would simply save the time spent in hunting the comment being accessed in a lengthy discussion and adding those colons in the response. DeistCosmos (talk) 19:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't really get how this Village Pump thing works...what exactly is it for? 'Soul 19:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SolarWind123 (talk • contribs)

How about a reply with quote button like normal forums have?TCO (reviews needed) 18:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Have you read WP:Indentation and/or Help:Using talk pages? Both of those have material relating to how to properly format things on discussion pages such as this one. Killiondude (talk) 19:05, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

A more forum-like form shall prevail!

The funny thing is that WMF is going in exactly the direction I say. Even though I communicate it in a self-making-fun-of manner, basic common sense says that this whole talk layout is...fucked. I mean it is MISERABLE to have this tiny edit window, a couple sets of scroll bars (in edit window and regular window--note, I need both when doing any formatting) and then search for where someone made a comment, seeing a block mass of text and then do that funky colon-typing crap. I think teletype operators had better message formats! And then listening to the shellback trogolodytes say that this is the best of all possible worlds...pshaw...y'all are the kind that says "why have windows and such, I want a dosprompt". Well...you're gonna lose!TCO (reviews needed) 05:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Slashdot thread on Wikipedia illustrates the mind of disgruntled editors

Recently there was a post on SlashDot about our new WikiLove feature [1].

In general there is little conversation about the new feature, and more conversation about why Slashdot readers - a demographic that should include many good contributors to Wikipedia, as they are generally intelligent, "wise" to technology, and sympathetic to free and open source software and information - have grown to be cynical about the utility of being volunteer editors.

The comments contain some stories of disgruntled editors, usually describing the failure of their first attempts at editing Wikipedia. The themes, as I read it, are:

1. A new user tries to edit an article and gets reverted without explanation, and/or dismissively ignoring the arguments in favor of the changes put forward by the IP.
2. A new user tries to edit an article and gets reverted. Tries to go to the talk page, where he encounters a veteran editor filibustering by repeating the same arguments over and over (while reverting). Decides that whoever has the most time to argue wins on Wikipedia and that real life is more important than arguing on the internet, and quits editing Wikipedia.
3. Experienced former users complaining that they left the project because much of their work on this or that obscure topic was summarily deleted, or "merged" into another article where the merged article was now overlong and all the content deleted anyway. User leaves in frustration.
4. Many users complaining that our veteran editors are arrogant, with condescending and dismissive attitudes toward 'outsiders' who are not part of the in-group of vested contributors.

I have no particular suggestions for how we can counter these perceptions, but I thought I should notice it in a public place. Feedback / ideas welcome.

Regards, causa sui (talk) 16:47, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Slashdot contributors are, of coure, a magnanimous and charming group who always embrace newcomers! (pause for laughter) Having said that, there's no question that the perception is widely held and often accurate - although I don't think that our arrance is applied to "outsiders" as much as it is applied to "editing efforts that are so wildly outside what has come to be seen the norm that I fear it would be too much work to deal with it so I'll just kill it and hope it goes away". I've been guilty of that last one myself. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Those who were complaining about article "owners" are also probably not as innocent as they claim to be. Probably POV-pushers, people who add unsourced information to BLPs or very controversial articles, or COI editors.

And yeah, too many vandals, so little time. Most of us tend to just revert suspicious looking unsourced or poorly sourced edits after only the most cursory inspection (or none at all), simply because we don't have that much time or patience to spare trying to fix the edits of others. Especially if you had to explain the same policies multiple times in a single day and still getting nowhere. Or for articles on subjects we know very little about, and we just found out about it by checking the contribs of a vandal.

But mostly, I think it's because a lot of people still think Wikipedia is all magical and stuff, then get disillusioned when they peek beneath the sunshine and rainbows of mainspace and see the fiery furnaces of the talk and project page machinery. Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate :D -- Obsidi♠n^Soul 19:42, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

My guess is that if those leaving these comments had left diffs I would have felt there was something wrong with what they are doing. But what that doesn't excuse is that they left the project with the feeling that it is dominated by unreasonable people. Most people come to Wikipedia with wrong ideas about how things get done or how they should conduct themselves - I certainly did. So the important takeaway from this, I think, is that problem new editors are just confused people doing the best they know how to do. We could be doing more to reform them and bring them into the fold. Regards, causa sui (user talk:causa sui) 19:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Our help pages are daunting... and that's an understatement. I'm relatively new, and I still distinctly remember the feeling of being completely lost. And one very common reaction of a lost new editor, being needlessly prodded (bombarded even, in some cases) by more experienced editors on any little thing they do wrong - is anger.

Most people don't really consider themselves stupid, the few that are tend to just breeze along oblivious of the warning templates accumulating on their talk pages, haha. But a lot of our day to day talkpage/edit summary interactions, are rather accusatory (whether deserved or not). If you were a new user, you'd feel threatened, boxed in, treated like a criminal or worse, an idiot. And that would make most people furious. It also puts them on defensive, leading to a downward spiral to the final ragequit or a block and then their resurrection as a vandal. They never learn to correct (or even just accept) their original mistakes because they never had a chance to. The way we deal with mistakes makes the most likely reaction of most new users to be that of proud defiance. And defiance against consensus is a mortal sin in Wikipedia, haha. For those reasons, they never pass that invisible threshold and become regular. And frankly, I have no idea how to fix that either.

I do think that users who do find even just one sympathetic editor who had the patience to explain things to them tend to be those who eventually stayed on. In contrast, the isolated editors who have little interactions with other editors other than being warned for this or that violation, are those who tend to leave with the bitter aftertaste of being a former Wikipedian. -- Obsidi♠n^Soul 20:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I think the best solution to all of these problems is resources like Wikipedia:Help desk and #wikipedia-en-help on IRC, where new users who are having problems, no matter what they are, will tend to get a sympathetic ear from experienced editors who will investigate, provide advice, and arbitrate editing disputes. Admittedly, sometimes the advice amounts to "I don't think X is ready to have a Wikipedia article about them right now", but if more users knew about resources like these I think they'd get help when get frustrated instead of giving up. Dcoetzee 21:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget about Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Adventure. Once that is completed, we'll have an active tutorial system that will guide new users through the processes and how things work, instead of just directing them toward almost entirely unhelpful reams of pages on how to edit. Silverseren^C 21:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The culture of Wiki-hate that is developing among many Internet users truly baffles me. I have noticed the same general remarks and attitudes by people at Slashdot, Reddit, and the like as Causa sui points out. The odd thing is that if you defend Wikipedia by explaining why somebody's complaints are untenable, you'll receive a lot of support and the tide tends to turn against the person who originally complained. The one general fact I have concluded is that the most vocal opponents of Wikipedia almost universally do not know much about being an editor and their arguments are not very well thought-out and are easily countered. Unfortunately, their maliced sentiment spreads easier than it is to dispel. My guess is that these people are disgruntled newbies who attempted to edit "difficult" articles right way that are magnets for controversy: religious, political, and drug articles, for instance. The high-profile articles are difficult to change and by the nature of being high-profile are more-or-less hard to improve upon already. Basically, their first experiences were negative because they unwisely chose topics to begin with. That's my guess anyway. Jason Quinn (talk) 00:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Welcome messages and Wikilove

What about adding a new option to the wikilove extension, applying the {{Welcome!}} template or other similar ones for new users? It may be a single welcome template, or it may allow to choose from a list of circumstances to apply one of the several types of welcome templates available Cambalachero (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Nice idea. I would actually be using Wikilove if it had a feature like this. Island Monkey ^{talk the talk} 14:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:TWINKLE has an option for this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

What is Wikilove for, anyway..'Soul 19:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SolarWind123 (talk • contribs)

File:Oscar icon.png

The file commons:File:Oscar icon.png, which is used on a very large number of pages (links), has been marked for nominated deletion on Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests July 2011. Rather than notify a large number of talk pages I am raising this on WP:AN and WP:VP to obtain the right intervention.

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File:American Civil War Montage 2.jpg

The file commons:File:American Civil War Montage 2.jpg, which is used on a very large number of pages (links), has been marked for nominated deletion on Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Media without a source as of 4 July 2011. Rather than notify a large number of talk pages I am raising this on WP:AN and WP:VP to obtain the right intervention.

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I believe this situation has been rectified and I have removed the tag. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Verre de whisky.jpg

The file commons:File:Verre de whisky.jpg, which is used on a very large number of pages (links), has been marked for nominated deletion on Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Media without a source as of 5 July 2011. Rather than notify a large number of talk pages I am raising this on WP:AN and WP:VP to obtain the right intervention.

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File:Buzz icon.png

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That's mostly my doing with a template for the Signpost. Silly me thinking that somebody would check the copyright status when being used on Commons Picture of Year. — Dispenser 03:01, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Speedy delete was rejected. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Two issues involving Requests for feedback

I believe the project has a problem which should be addressed:

A very unscientific survey of recent posts indicates that 80% or so of requests do not get an answer. This is unacceptable. (in contrast, less than 1% of questions at Help_desk go unanswered.)

I have tried to address this in a couple of ways:

• Exhorting help desk volunteers to pop over, example
• An attempt to create a concept of a Feedback Patrol, which died for lack of interest

I have a new thought, but before I spend time on it, I am concerned that one of the reasons we don't get sufficient volunteers at Requests for feedback is because of Problem 2

Another very unscientific survey of recent posts suggests over 90% of feedback is not acknowledged. I think the recent count is a bit of an aberration, but I would hope for something like 50% or better.

That lack of response is discouraging to me, and likely to others. (I posted to Moonriddengirl who observed similar issues at Drawing board).

I apologize in advance for posing two different problems; I am immediately interested in responses to the second problem, as I feel it must be resolved before tackling the first, but I thought articulating the first problem would help provide the context.

Moonriddengirl hinted at one possible answer I've mulled over in the past - do new editors posting to notice boards feel as if they are posting to semi-automated answering service, rather than energized human being volunteers who would like to discuss the issue? If so, how do we change that perception. If not, what should we do?--SPhilbrickT 15:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, the two problems together present a compelling case for closure of the feedback process in my view. The fact that ~80% of requests go unanswered, coupled with the ~90% of answered requests that are seemingly ignored, appears to me that users are failing to connect though this process and that it's only creating false hope and subsequent frustration. That presents a good case of a process that is causing "damage" to the encyclopedia (more accurately, to the English Wikipedia community), with the obvious solution that the process should be shuttered. I know that's not what you'd like to hear, but I hope that you'll consider it because of the potential damage issue.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 16:00, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I responded to a side issue directly to Ohm's Law, but he did bring up one point worth mentioning: it is possible that my guesstimate of the response rate is low - in some cases, an editor may see a request at the Feedback page, and go right to the article to edit it. I have done that on many occasion; my practice is to add a note to the Feedback page, but it is understandable that some others might not. I don't believe this will materially change my concerns, but I'll do a quick check to see how often it happens.--SPhilbrickT 17:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible to get people to ask at the help desk instead of the help desk people going there? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

That's an interesting thought. My initial reaction wasn't positive, as I'm concerned about the possibility of overwhelming the help desk. That said, the help desk gets 20-30 questions a day while Feed gets 10-15, so it would be a material increase, but perhaps not impossible. I was mulling a hybrid model, where editors post the request at the help desk, then a volunteer takes it on and moves tit to feedback for a response, but that may be overkill. As an alternative, editors post a request at the help desk, with short responses posted at the help desk, and more detailed responses posted at the target article talk page. I wonder if that might work.--SPhilbrickT 19:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Given my lack of experience in reviewing articles, a feedback request at the help desk would take me much longer to deal with than a typical help desk question. A stream of feedback requests could indeed lead to a backlog there. -- John of Reading (talk) (help desk volunteer) 10:33, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Having lurked there but never edited, another problem is that many of these new accounts are really obvious role accounts writing puff pieces and/or copyvios. They tend to end up blocked for these problems before anyone can respond, and it would seem rather pointless to give feedback to an blocked corporate account whose article is blatant spam; I'd be more inclined to give my time for a good-faith newbie. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

How about more of an apprenticeship model where new editors have to earn the right to make new articles? Part of the problem is new articles by new people are so often crap (and in general new articles is not our biggest needs, it's to add content to well-notable topics, so why be exerting lots of effort on that crap)? Earn your stripes is a way to better channel things.TCO (reviews needed) 19:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest that we focus on joining new editors up with people who care about the kinds of article that they're editing, because that seems like to point of greatest possible synergy. Maybe some kind of cross-posting / transclusion into Wikiproject space? Stuartyeates (talk) 01:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Love it!TCO (reviews needed) 01:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Having been part of the IRC help channel before becoming active in the Help Desk and having cooperated somewhat with the AfC people, I think the reasons why most people don't want to respond to WP:FEEDBACK is the same reason why there are so few reviewers in the Articles for Creation process.

Because a great majority of the articles being submitted for feedback are COI edits, often blatantly promotional. And a fair amount of them are AfD candidates outright. Most people would balk at trying to fix errors in an article that would either be deleted sometime soon or requires them to completely rewrite the article.

As for feedback responses, I leave a feedback 'talkbalk' template at the asker's talk page. In my limited time answering requests there, they've almost always responded though not on WP:FEEDBACK itself. They either post on my talk or try to comply with the advice given. And yeah, I try to point people to WikiProjects once I get to know the subjects they are most interested in, but only in the rare cases when they aren't single-purpose COI accounts. *sigh*-- Obsidi♠n Soul 07:19, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Too many places for editors looking to help others to look - I'd merge this with Peer Review. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:43, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyone ever have something taken from a sandbox and written up by someone else?

Had this happen a while ago. Just once actually. And not some big prize or anything. And had been dormant with me for a while. Kinda glad the para-long stub was created with sources I had in sandy. But still...what kind of person does that and does not give a heads up or a comment on talkie-talk? TCO (reviews needed) 15:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I've seen it happen, although it's never happened to me. It's not very polite. Moreover, it's a violation of license if they didn't attribute it, in accordance with Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Credit is not just polite on Wikipedia; it's mandated by license. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:45, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting point. I don't think there would be a copyright issue here as the text was not really cut and pasted. More grabbing the topic and sources.TCO (reviews needed) 15:51, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Happened early this year to two drafts by User:Aakheperure. Thing was, it was done by multiple users targeting a well-made draft, sockpuppets of a single person or a group of closely connected people in real life. User:SirEpicBob is the blocked puppetmaster (see his SPI blocking discussion and note how this was apparently his modus operandi to a lot of other stolen drafts).

Now the main difference is, these people (or person) did it for rather nefarious reasons. They wanted to gain 'standing' in the Wikipedia community as valid editors. All the accounts had one thing in common - they had, what at first glance appears to be an elaborate user page of a reasonably experienced editor, but when you checked the dates of their joining, they just don't add up. Then you realize it's all fake. They give each other fake barnstars, had a short blurb about themselves, and they "steal" drafts and publish it then add it to the list of articles they supposedly started.

They seem quite experienced with Wikipedia's inner workings and I suspect they planned to use these accounts for either serious propaganda or build a business by writing Wikipedia articles for companies and using these fake 'experienced' editor accounts as the starting points. The owner of the draft was pretty upset. We (IRC helpers and the user who adopted the owner of the draft, User:Petrb) initially tried talking to the editors who moved them with no luck. They don't respond. Even explicit warnings not to move the drafts because they are active doesn't help. Problem is, there's nothing in the policies that prohibit this, not even in as simple etiquette. I think there should be, even at least for asking editors to ask the original author for permission to move it.

Any way you look at it, even with our WP:OWN policies, taking someone else's draft without notifying the original author is wrong. Unless the original author is inactive, it's extremely rude.

So be careful if yours has been moved recently without the mover notifying you. Especially if he claims 'credit' for it afterwards by copypasting it. Check his other contribs and make sure he's not a reincarnation of the above user or someone similar to him.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 13:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts. [a related project, though not the same thing].   Will Beback  talk  05:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC) [modified for clarity]   Will Beback  talk  06:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Cool. My home after I get repermabanned. ;-) TCO (reviews needed) 06:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

• Wow, thanks for the insult, Will, not that I didn't expect it when I saw the edit summary. Wikiproject Abandoned Drafts only deals with article drafts from retired users. Other users are free to donate their drafts if they don't feel they are going to finish them, but the Wikiproject (which I created two days ago) doesn't steal sandbox drafts from active users. Go insult someone else. Apologies made. Silverseren^C 06:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Apologies for the offense. I've modified the remark.   Will Beback  talk  06:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

List of municipal authorities in Northampton County, Pennsylvania

List of municipal authorities in Northampton County, Pennsylvania has been deleted, but several other such lists for Pennsylvania Counties are still active. Can someone tell me where this particular list went?--DThomsen8 (talk) 16:03, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

The list was deleted following a deletion discussion that occurred at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of municipal authorities in Northampton County, Pennsylvania. Monty₈₄₅ 16:06, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

looking for a picture of fluorine reacting

Can anyone help here...or point me to more places to ask for help?

I want a video (or perhaps a photo) of fluorine gas reacting with something. There is nothing PD (or even that I can think of as an easy donation). Looking for something like in the videos below. Will go into a Featured Article Candidate. Either someone to make it for us or who has it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG6EG_igTGw

-or-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FsO5zaf6M

TCO (reviews needed) 23:50, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Reference_desk/Science is watched by a lot of editors who might have some relevant thoughts.--SPhilbrickT 00:13, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Gracias

Request for inter-Wiki Arbitration Request assistance

Hello everyone.

I need assistance over one grave matter. Namely, I have been blocked for a period of three months on the Croatian Wikipedia, in what I believe is an example of administrational abuse and newbie harassment. I have wanted to use methods of appeal, but after announcing to use them, the blocking admin has extended my block further to my talk page and upon my announcement to use the email feature in order to inquire assistance from other administrations, he has deprived me of that privilege as well.

I have dispatched an appeal at the Request for Comment over at the Croatian Wikipedia, and the end opinions are very controversial - 2 admins strongly critical of my appeal, while 2 others mostly endorse it and demand my immediate unblock and a review of the actions of the blocking admin. However, the two latter ones had submitted their Opinions only moments after the deadline to do so has expired, meaning that their opinions have been crossed out and only the first two ones, which oppose my arguments, will be taken into consideration. Considering that several days have passed since the initial 10-day period and in the lack of any sort of a determined time period within which a neutral 3rd party Administrator is to summarize the opinions of the Administrators and implement actions, if any, as well as the already-known outcome of the pending RfC resolution, I have decided to go for the very final way of lodging an appeal at the whole Croatian Wikipedia.

In accordance to this Arbitration Committee vote:

“ [point 4] In case the conflict cannot be resolved in accordance to the rules expressed to the above, parties can, as a final means, request the creation of a committee of administrators and users in a determined number. After the decision, this committee is to be dissolved. It shall apply the same rules as the AC. ”

“ [clarification 2] It shall apply the same rules as the AC. - this refers to the collection of rules present on the most advanced Wikipedia - en.wikipedia.org. See (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_policy) Arbitration proceedings. The rules present on hr.wikipedia.org are insufficient for transparent and unbiassed proceedings. ”

Taken to granted these specific rules, and the circumstances I've expressed to the above, I want to file a request for the formation of such a committee. However, the Croatian Wikipedia lacks any rule or guideline which specifies the procedure of requesting the formation of such a committee, meaning that I am unable to do so myself, as was in the case of RfC, being a blocked user, stripped also of editing the personal talk page, or using the email feature. Therefore, I ask anyone present here to come forth to my assistance and submit the request in my stead, on the standard Croatian Wikipedia general discussion page, and in the lack of, as mentioned, any rules or guidelines which would give any sort of specification in regards to the submission of a request for the foundation of this special committee.

To whomever grants me this plea of assistance, I offer my most sincere gratitude. --SavoRastko (talk) 03:24, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Just edit here. This is where the big dogs play.TCO (reviews needed) 03:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, but I'd rather sort this problem out over at the Croatian Wikipedia. There seems to be an ongoing problem over there, with frequent repetitions; I'd like to use the highest authority in the Croatian Wikipedia to finally cut down to the core of the problem. --SavoRastko (talk) 03:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

We have lots of Balkan edit wars. You could fit right in. P.s. Why are the Croats good at basketball?  :-) TCO (reviews needed) 03:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate the warm welcome and promise that it will be taken into consideration, but let me stress that I am interested in no Balkan-related or other edit wars whatsoever. AFAIK, my request to lodge an arbitration request is precise in that course of preventing violations of the Wikipedia Policies and Guidelines; and that is precisely why I have wrote here.

Are you willing to come forward, perhaps? --SavoRastko (talk) 05:32, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I got perma-banned for 2 years. I'm probably not your best spokesperson. TCO (reviews needed) 09:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter, it's just submitting the request in my stead. Since you're the only one who has actually applied, you might just actually do it. --SavoRastko (talk) 21:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Just a thought, but have you tried talking to a Steward instead?-- Obsidi♠n Soul 00:41, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

All links lead to ... enlightenment?

The Guardian has an item about Wikipedia today: The online encyclopedia's unlikely routes to enlightenment. This has a theory about our links tending to lead up to philosophy. I'm not convinced by this as the current FA just loops. But try it yourself and see. Warden (talk) 12:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

This has its own page: Wikipedia:Get to Philosophy -- John of Reading (talk) 12:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Oscar icon.png Deleted

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File:7BrahmanMH.jpg

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File:Deoband.jpg Deleted

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Veronica Guerin

Im no big expert on the life of Veronica Guerin, but all I can say is that I think if some user/users with extensive knowledge and time on their hand edited her article the article could really be expanded alot. Because its quite badly written right now and quite short when thinking of the fact that Guering changed alot of Irelands judicial system before her murder in 1996. So I would like to request that some user took a look at the article and expanded it and perhaps re-writes it. Thanks.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:03, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

How important is it to write well on Wiki talk pages, like Sandy and Malleus do?

Just curious. I am finding my talk comments to be miserable. Full of misspellings and improper homonyms and stray parentheses. And then not really in sentences. I see others go back and correct their comments. Also maybe it is "good practice" for article writing. Plus kinder on the readers. One down side is more work. And then it's not really an article. But...thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TCO (talk • contribs) 18:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

It's always good to express oneself with sufficient clarity that others can understand you. In that context, I don't think stray parentheses or a few misspellings are anything to worry about. – ukexpat (talk) 19:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Given our current policies and guidelines, Strunk & White's Elements of Style do not currently apply to Wikipedia editors. You're free to propose policy changes over at the policy pump, however given how loose our policies and guidelines are, I highly doubt that they'll be implemented or enforced. You're still free to try if you believe it's worth your time, of course. --slakr^\ talk / 19:14, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The important thing is to avoid ambiguity and confusion in your writing. Don't worry about the spelling and grammar so much. Sure, we all like to see a grammatical and correctly spelled comment. And there's no doubt it adds to your credibility. But I'd rather see a badly spelled and ungrammatical comment saying something clear and significant than a beautifully spelled piece of grammar which says nothing, or worse, is so tortuous that it could be saying anything. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The notion that we would need a "style guide" or spelling rules for talk pages it a bit outlandish and we have more than enough beraucracy already. I suspect the reason why people correct their own postings is simply because they are annoyed by their own typos or ambiguities due to fast typing. Nothing wrong with that, but definitely no reason for any regulation here.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:10, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

How disappointing. I was rather hoping that SandyG and I might be publicly tumbrilled to our place of punishment, stripped and ... no, no ... must go and take a cold shower. Malleus Fatuorum 01:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I hope you're talking about a nice neutral Wikipedian 10degC cold shower and not one of those ice-cold 4degC showers so beloved by those who ignore the MoS and sneer at the NPoV. Otherwise I feel an RFC coming on... -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:53, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

For a while I was using a device with a horrible keyboard and made numerous errors. I only corrected those talk page entries where there was ambiguity (or where the misspellings made me look uneducated rather than clumsy). So long as the meaning is apparent that's sufficient.   Will Beback  talk  09:27, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

It's a matter of what linguists term "register", see Register (sociolinguistics). There are modes of communication that are appropriate to different contexts. So, the way I write in a discussion page, like this one, is quite different from the way I would write in an article, and that is entirely appropriate. Just as you would use a different register when hanging out with some friends at a bar, drinking beers, than you would when conversing with colleages at a professional conference. Personally, I spend less time fretting over (and correcting) small errors in my writing on talk pages (like accidentally dropped apostrophes or the occasional "teh"), and don't often bother to correct such mistakes (excepting when the mistake leads to a likely misunderstanding of what I meant) when I use talk pages. This is quite different from when I compose article text, where I do take more care, and I do go back and fix accidental mistakes. --Jayron32 15:52, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

See also Halo effect: The human brain is invincibly convinced that well-written, polite messages are naturally from better, smarter, more thoughtful people, whose views should therefore be honored and respected. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair warning here: I'm not going to tell anyone "Don't mean to be rude", because I am clearly about to say something rude. So be it. Given the subject of the thread, I'm not sure that "polite messages" accurately describes how Malleus is known to use the talk pages at Wikipedia. I'm not sure if you meant to imply that, but lets keep things somewhat relevent to the topic at hand. That being said, Malleus's article contributions are above reproach, and I don't think his lack of tact is necessarily related to his ability to be a great contributor to Wikipedia. Annoying at times? Sure, but then again, so am I, and I don't have the article contributions to justify my presence at Wikipedia that Malleus does, so who am I to judge. Be that as it may, however, I still think that using the term "polite" to describe anything regarding Malleus's interaction style to be almost humerously inaccurate. --Jayron32 18:09, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

"well-written, polite messages" are also sent by lawyers and tax official, who may not be "honored and respected". I agree with those who write clear, concise prose in Talk pages, even if they use less copyediting effort than in articles. --Philcha (talk) 17:31, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Main page features

A RFC is underway to discuss what features the community desires to see on the main page. Please participate! Thanks. AD 19:22, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Map

How do i cite this one? Simply south...... improving for 5 years 23:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

It appears that the map is in the public domain (dated 1885, it seems to qualify as such). Given that, why not just uploaded, add it to the article in question, and then refer to it directly? --Jayron32 00:02, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

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Unbelievably disgusting

Likely most of you think that it's not of your business what is going on in some other parts of the Wikimedia-Universe. But if you take a look at the current cases of mobbing, hostilities and persecution of/against Jewish contributors in the German Wikipedia you just have to be appalled. Not just as user/contributor of any Wikimedia project, but rather as a human. All of this happens under indulgence and/or active participation of virtually most of the admins. Some of the chasers don't even try to hide their motives. It's just unbelievably disgusting. --GelberZettelKrieg (talk) 16:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if what you say is going in is really going on (I have no idea if it is, or if it is not, but lets just assume that it is going on, just for the sake of this discussion. My comments following are not a validation of the truthfulness of your statement...) then I do find it disgusting. However, I personally lack any agency to cause any change in the situation. My level of disgust is thus impotent with regards to my ability to do anything. So what. I am disgusted. Now what do you want me to do? If you really want to effect change in the situation, you should do so through German wikipedia. I have never edited there, don't speak any passable German, and so I cannot do anything to make it better. My disgust is completely irrelevent. --Jayron32 16:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Yup, I'm watching those cases too. And I'm feeling growing concernment. --Erzherzog Rudolf IV. (talk) 16:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)