Talk:J. K. Rowling

Cuts to the Lead

Going to try to get consensus for the following changes to the third paragraph in the lead, primarily because this is an article about an author and not their work (see J.R.R.Tolkien for instance) - we do not need to be name dropping Voldemort (he who should not be named (cringe moment millennial moment)) in this lead, nor including various details on the genre. Generally, what are peoples thoughts on the following changes to the third, coupled with a merger to the second paragraph:

"Rowling concluded the Harry Potter series with Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (2007). The novels follow a boy called Harry Potter as he attends Hogwarts[,] (a school for wizards), and battles Lord Voldemort. Death and the divide between good and evil are the central themes of the series. Its influences include Bildungsroman (the coming-of-age genre), school stories, fairy tales, and Christian allegory. The series revived fantasy as a genre in the children's market, spawned a host of imitators, and inspired an active fandom. Critical reception has been more mixed. Many reviewers see Rowling's writing as conventional; some regard her portrayal of gender and social division as regressive. There were also religious debates over the Harry Potter series."

Let me know y'alls thoughts. Cheers. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 01:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I am firmly opposed to cutting the influences on the HP series. It's a little hard to remember in our perennially online, news-hungry world, but the sine qua non of Rowling as a public figure is Harry Potter. Those books are the only reason she has a twitter following at all. They are the overwhelming focus of scholarly work about her, and I dare say they remain the overwhelming focus of news articles about Rowling if anyone is able to analyze news coverage beginning in the 90s. A sentence about influences on the series is essential. I'm open to shortening the fragment in the first proposed cut, though the chronology needs to be worked in somehow. I don't care if Voldemort is mentioned by name, but the saving of four words doesn't seem worth turning the plot summary into a meaningless sentence. Vanamonde93 (talk) 02:42, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh this was my compromise version, I wanted to get rid of "Death and the divide between good and evil are the central themes of the series." - Tolkien's page (another featured article) does not talk about the influences on the works he created, rather it talks about the works as a whole ("After Tolkien's death, his son Christopher published a series of works based on his father's extensive notes and unpublished manuscripts, including The Silmarillion. These, together with The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, form a connected body of tales, poems, fictional histories, invented languages, and literary essays about a fantasy world called Arda and, within it, Middle-earth. Between 1951 and 1955, Tolkien applied the term legendarium to the larger part of these writings.") No talk of influences there, I personally think that is too nitty gritty for the lead. Would be more appurtenant to talk about the wizarding world and franchise the books inspired, but thats already in the first paragraph of the lead. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 02:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

What Tolkein's lead has is neither here nor there, because the weight given to any topic is determined by what the sources about this subject say. But in any case the Tolkein lead is far too short given the length and complexity of that article. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It is certainly not "far too short." LegalSmeagolian (talk) 03:03, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Tolkien's lead is far too short (I note it was last reviewed at FAR fifteen years ago, so whether it is at standard is undetermined). I believe the amount of space in the lead here strikes the right balance wrt article content and the body of sources. We have three sentences devoted to Rowling's views on transgender issues; if content were workshopped and developed correctly, I might be convinced the rewrite could expand that to four sentences, but in relation to the preponderance of sources on Rowling and her work, convincing is needed on whether three or four sentences is most appropriate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Vanamonde93; the cuts to the lead here are not an improvement. In our "perennially online, news-hungry world", recent edits here are overlooking the "sine qua non of Rowling as a public figure" and decades worth of sources and work; a Rowling bio that is balanced according to high-quality sources is never going to ignore her entire body of work, and the bulk of this talk page is being overtaken by WP:RECENTISM and personal opinions, not always backed by high-quality sources.

Further, working on the lead before the body is rarely productive or the best way to get the job done; leads are summaries of the body.

And, working on a broad overview biography article before developing content in the sub-article at Politics of J. K. Rowling is also a less-than-effective approach. Rewriting the transgender content cannot be at the expense of the rest of a fine article, and should not be done recklessly on a Featured article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The "Rowling concluded..." sentence belongs in the preceding paragraph. I moved it before I saw this talk section Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 12:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That looks like an improvement to me (although there may have been a reason why it developed the way it did, I can't recall what it might have been at this point years later). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with these changes and especially with the reduction of the length of the themes and influences part of the lead. Themes of Harry Potter go in the lead of Harry Potter, not this article. We spend less time discussing the themes of Franz Kafka's work than J.K. Rowling, which seems obviously backwards to me. Loki (talk) 20:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

If HP-related material goes in Harry Potter, then logically JKR's views go in Political views of J. K. Rowling, and we can obviate the need for this article entirely (sarcasm, of course). Both these topics are a part of Rowling's persona, and both deserve mention in the lead. The themes of Harry Potter receive greater coverage in scholarly sources about Rowling than anything she's said on twitter. Talk of removing it is misguided. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope you see the difference between Harry Potter, a series of books that while written by Rowling is not Rowling, and Political views of JK Rowling, which is only separate from this article because otherwise it'd be extremely long.

Also, I very much doubt that they do, actually. Rowling's transphobic remarks are an increasingly large part of her notability, which is why it's increasingly weird how little prominence they have in the article. Harry Potter as a series in general still definitely has better coverage in the sources, but the themes of Harry Potter specifically I doubt. Lots of sources on Harry Potter do not actually go into any great level of detail about the content of the books at all. (Which, to be clear, is the thing I'm objecting to: it's fine to say she wrote seven books in the Harry Potter series, because that's a fact about Rowling, but not that the Harry Potter series has death as a major theme, because that's a fact about Harry Potter and not JK Rowling.) Loki (talk) 06:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Something that might be worthwhile, elsewhere in the lede, is inserting a para break before starting to talk about her trans/gender views. Doing this serves to separate and highlight this and note that it is one of the things most prominent about her at this point. WorthPoke2 (talk) 23:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

See #Five-paragraph lead? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:15, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Vanamonde that scholarly sources continue to cover Rowling's writing more than her views – see this 2024 book [1], for example. The TG section likely needs an update, but I see from the source list above that it’s being worked on; let’s not change the lead before the body. Olivaw-Daneel (talk) 11:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

This 2024 scholarly book source sounds very promising:

While it was once considered a universally beloved book series, the relationship between HP and its fans has grown more complicated in recent years. As its readers have grown older and Rowling’s reputation has wavered in the public eye, Whited and her contributors consider the complicated legacy of Harry Potter and its author and explore how the series will evolve in the next twenty years.

The summary reads as the kind of balanced scholarly source we should be considering, and focusing on sources like this could help bring focus to the rambling, non-source-based discussions (some based more on opinions than sources and dominated by RECENTISM) taking over this talk page.

Olivaw-Daneel will you be available to help draft new content? Do you have the book? And considering this book summary, are adjustments warranted to the Legacy section as well ? Glad to see you again; this book demonstrates that it is likely possible to base new content on what has been covered by scholarly sources, augmenting with news sources only as needed to provide accessible sources to readers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It should be free to read via WP:TWL, but my access has lapsed. Not sure how active I can be on the TG section but if others such as Sideswipe9th are interested in drafting, I could help support. I'll add that book and a couple of others I found to the list above. Olivaw-Daneel (talk) 16:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

My TWL access tends to lapse & unlapse depending on activity. Today I was able to log in & downloaded Whited's new book - so thanks for the find Olivaw-Daneel. From a brief glance, one chapter in Whited takes a look at JKR's reputation/fans now vs. when the HP books were being published. She has a large fanbase and apparently there were equally large expectations of her, as author, and also apparently some issues to do w/ fan fiction (according to this source (available via TWL) there are more than 400,000 on AO3, which opens issues of who owns the characters/concepts/themes/ etc.)

All of this seems to have morphed into hostility according the Whited chapter's author, but I need to read it and the paper re fanfiction closely and process. I've also downloaded Duggan's paper "Transformative readings" (pdf available here), which starts from generally the same premise: Duggan writes that Harry Potter (the character) and Harry Potter (the series) is about a marginalized group (witches, sorcerers, magic users) which attracted a fan base expecting the author to espouse and or align herself with marginalized peoples, hence creating strong hostility vis-a-vis her public comments re transgender rights. This is all interesting, needs a closer reading and processing. But generally that's the frame the scholars are using: how her fan base has morphed. I think we can get some material from these scholarly works to work into the article, but it will take some time and thought. Anyway, sorry for the long post, and thanks again to Olivaw-Daneel for dipping into Project Muse. Victoria (tk) 23:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Victoriaearle and Olivaw-Daneel: I don't know what I'm doing wrong at TWL (I am logged in), but I am unable to find this source at TWL. Could someone toss me a cluestick, or maybe email me the two relevant chapters?

Meanwhile, after four days off due to hand surgery, I have returned to find a) no significant development of content at the sub-article Political views of J. K. Rowling, and b) more rambling discussions involving opinion, recentism and news reports, and less-than-highest-quality sources. Someone needs to take the lead here and put up drafts; I am hoping Sideswipe9th will engage soon, as my stitches are in my hand until 22 April, limiting my typing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Book sent & cluestick posted to your talk to reduce volume here :) Victoria (tk) 23:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTCOMPULSORY on your part and on other editors part re: development of sub article. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Five-paragraph lead?

WorthPoke2 suggests above [2] that

"Something that might be worthwhile, elsewhere in the lede, is inserting a para break before starting to talk about her trans/gender views. Doing this serves to separate and highlight this and note that it is one of the things most prominent about her at this point."

It is generally recommended that leads be no longer than four paragraphs, and four paragraphs is typical for an article this size. But some FAs deviate from the LEAD guideline; for example, a recent FA Climate change is a similar WP:SIZE (8,925 words of readable prose) as Rowling (8,913 words of readable prose), and has a five-paragraph lead. Without starting another premature RFC, is this something that other editors feel might be helpful or appropriate in this case?

Please discuss rather than starting with premature !voting. I am open to being convinced. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:15, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

My personal view: if a five-para lead is agreed on, I wouldn't be strongly opposed. But I would not separate it as WorthPoke2 suggests, rather I would prefer putting all of her views (related content) into that separate paragraph. Looking at the current version, that would mean the break would be after her accolades and charitable giving, and before the "In politics" sentence, but viewing the current lead content, one can see it flows from accolades, to giving, to giving in politics, to her political and other views ... that progression of narrative made/makes sense to me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I do think that a paragraph break there makes a lot of sense. I'd also like to add a little more material about the trans stuff to that paragraph but I'd support a paragraph break regardless. Loki (talk) 17:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

In the lede I wouldn’t mind a paragraph break but I disagree with the idea of all her views. Joanne’s views on Blairite economics aren’t notable, her views on trans people absolutely are. Snokalok (talk) 17:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I've read it a few times today and think it works as written. It starts with accolades and honors, mentions philanthropy - monies given, including to politics - then to politics & transgender views. It's all worthy of mention and packed together in a single para - which is how leads are written. Victoria (tk) 21:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• I do feel there should be a separate paragraph in the lead about her gender-critical-ness. In the UK and particularly in Scotland, there's been a lot of 2020s coverage of her in connection with Isla Bryson and the drama about the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. So much so in fact that if you asked a Scottish teen about J.K. Rowling, they might well say she's a leading anti-transwoman activist, oh, and didn't she write some books as well? What I really advocate is one gender-views paragraph in a four-paragraph lead, but if we have to go to a five paragraph lead to achieve that, then okay, let's do it.—S Marshall T/C 23:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• It's a tough one. The current lead does flow well right now, so I think a fifth paragraph related to her views would be best. Quick draft to give an idea: "Rowling is known for donating to political causes and sharing her views on politics and society. She has opposed Scottish independence and Brexit and is an outspoken feminist. Since 2019, her views on transgender rights and identity have attracted unprecedented media attention and made her a controversial figure, etc. etc." WikiFouf (talk) 04:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I’d counter with “Since 2019, she has also become notable for her prominence within anti-transgender activism, with her stated views becoming increasingly radical over time - to the point of what some have characterized as holocaust denial.” Snokalok (talk) 12:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Please don't introduce "known for" and "notable for" into the lead of a featured article; that should be obvious or the content wouldn't be in the lead. The current lead explores the main things she was known for without wasting those (trite) words in the word count. Also, please don't try to rewrite the lead yet when NO ONE has yet attempted to draft new body content. Leads follow bodies; could we stay focused on the question of whether we should deviate from the WP:LEAD guideline to allow an extra paragraph (either now or when we rewrite the content)-- which happens at times, but is rare?[3][4] The current lead is dated and needs rewriting, but at least it was not poorly written considering it was constrained by a well-attended RFC. Vanamonde93 was one of the three main authors of the Featured version, and has been following here, but we are still missing the other two (AleatoryPonderings and Olivaw-Daneel, who have access to scholarly sources), and Sideswipe9th, a competent FA writer with source access, has gone missing for a week. Victoriaearle makes a good point and I'm still unsure if we need to deviate from a guideline in this case (it's not an ultra-long article, it complies with SIZE), and am hoping to hear from more of the others before making up my own mind. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Alternative suggestion: combine the first three paras into two? WorthPoke2 (talk) 18:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm hoping we will hear more from other highly involved editors; I have done all I can to catch up here after two weeks travel, but haven't been able to thoroughly weigh in on everything yet, and I am having hand surgery tomorrow, and don't know what to expect, in case I go silent for a few days or can't type. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think a five paragraph lead is needed. From the worldwide point of view WP is supposed to espouse, she is still primarily known for Harry Potter, and her political/cultural viewpoints are very much a consequence of HP rather than an equal to it. Sure, a Western teen might know her only from recently controversies in the news (I doubt it). What about teens in South America, Africa, Asia, and Oceania? Please keep the systemic bias of Wikipedia in mind. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The media coverage of her over the last 4-5 years has been almost entirely transphobia related. Notability is pretty thoroughly established, I do believe Snokalok (talk) 07:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Though, I do agree with the thought about ties between her views and Harry Potter, but that’s just because I watch a lot of Shaun’s video essays. Snokalok (talk) 07:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, which is why the transgender politics is mentioned in the lead. To go further would be WP:RECENTISM. Media coverage of the previous three decades was entirely HP-focused. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That she is famous because of and for Harry Potter and not because of her views on gender/transphobia etc does not mean those views are not some of the presently most prominent things about her. WorthPoke2 (talk) 17:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but encyclopedias are supposed to take the long-term view, instead of focusing on the WP:RECENTISM of what's "presently" the most prominent thing about her in the daily news. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

At the same time, ignoring what's been her main point of notability for four years is also a problem. Template:Update exists for a reason. The height of Harry Potter's popularity is long past, but most of the article was written based on sources from then, and we're left with a time capsule of 2010s recentism as it stands.

Would themes of Harry Potter fit the ten year rule? I'd say the thing that started to cause the author's downfall from the unquestioned heights of popularity she once had does fit the 10 year rule. It's vital to understand what happened to her. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 21:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd question whether her trans POV is really "her main point of notability", even during the last few years. GHits are an imperfect system, but they're probably more objective than what each of us remember from our individual filter bubbles. Consider what I find in Google Books:

• for the five years before the 2018 GRA consultation (2013–2017):  
  • "j.k. rowling" "harry potter" – 469 books
  • "j.k. rowling" "transgender" – 30 books
• for the five years after it (2019–2023):
  • "j.k. rowling" "harry potter" – 559 books
  • "j.k. rowling" "transgender" – 256 books

These results suggest increased coverage of transgender subjects relative to the earlier years, but they still show more than twice as many mentions of Harry Potter.

Some of the increase may be driven by increased coverage of trans issues generally; Google Ngram indicates that in 2013 there were almost two, and by 2018, more than three, books using the word transgender for every one book that mentioned Harry Potter, but that dataset only runs up until 2019, so we can't use it to look at recent years. Looking at the graphs, I'd guess that much less than half of the increase is due to the "background" effect of people writing about trans issues. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

A lot of the mentions of Rowling in general may refer to her as "the Harry Potter author". That it's included does not make it about them -- I'd compare the intersection and compare only Rowling and Potter without Trans to all mentions of Towling and trans, to try and get that breakdown. WorthPoke2 (talk) 11:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to run that comparison yourself, if you think it would be meaningful.

I will add, though, that if she's usually described with a phrase like "J.K. Rowling, the Harry Potter author", then her authorship of Harry Potter is what Wikipedia would consider a Wikipedia:Defining characteristic. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:09, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going for recentism: my point is that in the same way someone can become famous for doing one thing then move to spending most of their time doing something very different: your argument there would prevent us noting the second acts of anyone.

(For instance, David Cameron is famous because he was UK Prime Minister. That does not mean the fact he's UK Foreign Secretary is not notable! Or Johnson became famous as a journalist, panel show guest, before going into being a mayor with a brief stint as Prime Minister before returning to his current role as journalist and author. All of those parts have a place in the lead!) WorthPoke2 (talk) 15:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that the number of paragraphs is the right way to measure the length of a lead. It is presently 429 words and 25 sentences. For comparison, most featured articles have a lead length of about three paragraphs, containing 10 to 18 sentences, or 250 to 400 words. This article is longer than most FAs, and has a lead length that is only a bit longer than the lead for most FAs. I don't think this is a problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• I cannot keep up with the volume of comments here, so apologies if this is not addressing everything. I am not convinced we need a lead paragraph dedicated to transgender issues, largely per AirshipJungleman above. JKR has said things on social media, and as those things have become less subtle she's received increasingly sharp criticism. We should absolutely mention that, and I'm in agreement with many folks above that the summary of the transgender issue is currently charitable to JKR relative to the the sources (I don't think it was when written). But relative to the rest of her career, the coverage is still minor, and it's still largely the celebrity news sections of the media that spend time on this issue. We really need to be careful about RECENTISM and NOTNEWS. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Considering the things I've raised previously, specifically the chilling of her relationships with members of the Harry Potter film cast, the transition of her writing career to transphobic detective novels and the attempted boycott of Hogwarts Legacy as a result of her social media statements I'd say that the transphobia has become a significant enough part of her professional life to be due mention in the lede. Simonm223 (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

    Which doesn't contradict anything I've written in the slightest, as it's already mentioned in the lead. We're discussing the need for a separate paragraph. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Calling her Cormoran Strike novels "transphobic" is a biased statement with no basis in reality. Have you actually read any of these books? (I've read all of them.) *Dan T.* (talk) 15:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

There's a scene in one of them, years before any of this popped off even, where the main character threatens a trans woman with prison rape. Loki (talk) 18:31, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

What you're referring to is in The Silkworm, 69% through in the Kindle edition, where Strike tells Pippa "it won't be fun for you inside" (when threatening to call the police on her). In his defense, she did just try to stab him with a knife, and had been stalking him for a while before that, but Strike can still be a bit crude at times (but Robin still likes him). Ultimately everybody calms down, various misunderstandings are cleared up, and Pippa becomes a fairly sympathetic character despite the inauspicious introduction. Nobody misgenders her, not Strike nor any other character nor the book's omniscient narrator. Kudos to you for citing the one actual transgender character in the entire series, who isn't the serial killer who sometimes puts on a dress in a different book of the series who sometimes gets cited by critics of Rowling. *Dan T.* (talk) 01:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Just to see what this could look like, I've put the existing wording in a different order, to get to one possible draft of a five-paragraph version of the lead here.—S Marshall T/C 22:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks S Marshall for taking a stab at it. I could support something like this, but would want to see the numbers (half a billion books sold, etc) appear earlier. However it's viewed the numbers of books sold and the subsequent media franchise is what makes her notable. I think it still needs a bit of juggling around, but thinking about it. That said, I'm wondering if we should wait until the transgender section is rewritten so we can write the lead to reflect the article? Let's see what others think. Victoria (tk) 23:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

More recent source material

Just a place to record "finds".

• Sands, Leo (10 April 2024). "Scotland's hate speech law ignites culture war far outside its borders". Washington Post.
  Internet Archive is no longer getting through WashPost's paywall, but the usual trick still works if you want the full text: do a quick copy after the bulk of the page loads but before the paywall pops up, and paste into a text editor or word processor.

—2001:5A8:4260:3100:A457:D8C:E45B:2FBC (talk) [SMcCandlish (talk · contribs), in another browser; my usual one is having trouble loading this talk page for some reason.], 05:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Just to confirm, yes that was me. Whatever the page-loading issue was, it has gone away now. [shrug].  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Bradley, Sian; McLaughlin, Charlotte (11 April 2024). "JK Rowling: I won't forgive Harry Potter stars over pro-trans views". The Times.

*Dan T.* (talk) 15:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Whited Source

I've also gotten my hands on this source through the Wikipedia library, and I have to say it seems very useful. Several of the essays in here contain some comment on Rowling's comments, though only a few comment on it at length.

One of the sections that does is the introduction by Whited herself. It's hard to give good short quotes from this here, but while it's balanced and well-sourced, it is notably harsher on Rowling than our section is, at one point calling her views shockingly simplistic and saying Just as the Harry Potter “Generation Hex” experience was unique to the young readers who inhaled and embodied the series’ original release during their childhood and adolescence, the Era of the Transphobic Tweets is a unique experience for those of us who were not merely enchanted by the series’ magic but deeply invested in building a body of scholarly work around it. (On the other hand, it's also a solid scholarly source for Rowling receiving threats.)

Another is "21. “Accio Jo!” Woke Wizards and Generational Potter Fandom", by Rebecca Sutherland Borah, an essay about fan-reaction to Harry Potter that gives a brief, but still too long to quote, timeline of Rowling's anti-trans tweets and fan reaction to them.

Other essays that give brief mentions are:

• 4. Harry, Aeneas, and the Foundational Text by Mitchell H. Parks:

  Moreover, assuming a reader-centric viewpoint has become all the more pressing given the growing divergence between Rowling’s perspective on the values of the series and that of many fans, as evidenced by her public statements calling for limitations on trans rights.

• 18. Politics of Suppression and Violence in Fantastic Beasts by Carsten Kullmann, in a footnote on the poor performance of the movies:

  And third, J. K. Rowling has publicly voiced controversial views on sex and gender on Twitter and in the media since the end of 2019, displaying not only an antiquated understanding of gender identity but also quite overt transphobia on her part. Her statements divided fans, and the controversy led to boycotts of the film series. Actors Daniel Radcliffe and Eddie Redmayne have officially spoken out against Rowling despite continuing their professional relationship with her. For a detailed discussion of this issue, please see Lana A. Whited’s introduction to this volume. As a literary and cultural scholar, I personally find the appeal of the frequently invoked “death of the author” concept greatly diminished when the author in question is vociferously campaigning against transgender people on social media while routinely practicing world-building through the same outlets, and especially if that author prides herself and her works on preaching love, tolerance, and the rejection of bigotry of any kind.

Loki (talk) 02:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

"divergence between Rowling’s perspective on the values of the series and that of many fans" Rowling's fans are not transphobic? Dimadick (talk) 09:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library

The Wikipedia Library is really an excellent resource to use. Access seems to be dependent of activity and some may need to apply for access. To access a collection, do the following:

1. Go to the Wikipedia Library portal
2. Sign in to access the "My collections" page
3. Scroll through the "My collections" page to find Project Muse (or Ebscohost or any other)
   1. If it's not there, then you need to submit an application.
4. Click "Access collection" >> brings you to ProjectMuse (or Ebscohost of any other collection) search page

This will help to collect the type of sources we need. Victoria (tk) 14:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Just signed up, thanks! WikiFouf (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed text for "Transgender people" section

Previous discussions and source dumps in Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 16.

I've tried to rework the "Transgender people" section. Here's what I came up with, but am not wedded to it, so it's okay if everyone hates it. Working on this section literally gives me migraines, so I've hit a wall for now and leaving up for discussion. The new sources (Whited & Henderson) didn't format as I wanted inside the cot/cob templates so it is as is. If someone knows how to fix, that would be great. I'd suggest we also consider pulling the "Transgender people" section out from the "Views" section and give it it's own level two section as we do with "Philanthropy". Maybe put it above "Philanthropy".

Also this page is overly long, but I'm not able to manually archive today. Thanks, Victoria (tk) 19:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Continued at #Discussion of first draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope we'll defer the discussion of changing the structure/flow of the article until we are closer to having a nearly-final draft of the Transgender section (the structure reflects a chronology from the Smith and Kirk sources of how her success led to fame and wealth led to philanthropy led to her being more willing to speak out on issues ... but placement of content can be discussed later). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

First draft

Current 454 words

Proposed (adds 19 words)

Main article: Political views of J. K. Rowling § Transgender rights Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws, and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy. Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors. When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views, Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real". In another controversial tweet in June 2020, Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real". LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate". Rowling responded with an essay on her website in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault. While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms. Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny, she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class". Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017 – have been called transphobic, and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood. Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron; and the charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on X a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them". Police Scotland stated it had not received any complaints over the posts and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.

Main article: Political views of J. K. Rowling § Transgender rights Rowling's views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy. When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views, Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real". Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity." In another tweet in June 2020, Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real". Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender", writes the June 2020 tweet revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me". Her statements have shocked Rowling fans; divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors. Rowling's statements – have been called transphobic, and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron; and the charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate". She rejected these characterisations and the notion that she is transphobic, in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020, where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault. While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space". Of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny, she asks if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition had she been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class". Whited refers it to as a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans. Literary scholars suggest that French literary critic Roland Barthes concept of "The Death of the Author" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling; Henderson believes the situation does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".

Sources

References Notes Duggan, Jennifer (28 March 2021). "Transformative readings: Harry Potter fan fiction, trans/queer reader response, and J. K. Rowling". Children's Literature in Education. 53 (2): 147–168. doi:10.1007/s10583-021-09446-9. PMC 9132366. PMID 35645426. S2CID 233661189. Henderson, Tolanda (2022). "A Coda: She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named". In Konchar Farr, Cecilia (ed.). Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter. University Press of Mississippi . ISBN 978-1-4968-3931-2. Pape, Madeleine (2022). "Feminism, trans justice, and speech rights: a comparative perspective". Law and Contemporary Problems. 85 (1): 215–240. Retrieved 29 March 2022. Pedersen, Sarah (2022). "'They've got an absolute army of women behind them': the formation of a women's cooperative constellation in contemporary Scotland". Scottish Affairs. 31 (1): 1–20. doi:10.3366/scot.2022.0394. S2CID 246762983. Pugh, Tison (2020). Harry Potter and Beyond: On J. K. Rowling's Fantasies and Other Fictions. University of South Carolina Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctvs09qwv. ISBN 978-1-64336-088-1. OCLC 1142046769. S2CID 225791872. Steinfeld, Jemimah (2020). "Not my turf: Helen Lewis argues that vitriol around the trans debate means only extreme voices are being heard". Index on Censorship. 49 (1): 34–35. doi:10.1177/0306422020917609. S2CID 216495541. Suissa, Judith; Sullivan, Alice (February 2021). "The gender wars, academic freedom and education" (PDF). Journal of Philosophy of Education. 55 (1): 55–82. doi:10.1111/1467-9752.12549. S2CID 233646159. Whited, Lana A. (2024). "Introduction". In Whited, Lana A. (ed.). The Ivory Tower, Harry Potter, and Beyond. University of Missouri Press. ISBN 978-0-8262-2300-5.

Discussion of first draft

I've (partially) fixed the source listings and the cot cob, and archived some of the long page for starting over (leaving a hat at the top of the new section), but there is still one glitch in the Whited source that will need to be repaired if we cite more than one chapter in the book. As an example, see here how we cited multiple chapters in Anatol, and in Berndt, but I am out of time to do that, and it's a lot of typing with sutures in my hand. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

If the draft sucks it's not relevant and so far only the intro from Whited is used, and Henderson from the other book. I tried with the Anatol templates (harvc) but got lots of errors and either I spend time with text/s or with templates & decided text gets the limited time I have. Thanks a ton for fixing my many many errors - especially with a hand wound. Victoria (tk) 20:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

We can fix the trivialities later ... thanks for doing the REAL work !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Sandy for bailing me out. When I'm less screen blind I'll try to figure out why those harvc templates don't work. I thought it might work better once it's all in mainspace. Victoria (tk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

• I feel the sequence of ideas should be: Say her views are controversial -- say in what way they're controversial -- then give the specific examples -- and then give Rowling's rebuttals. I'd also slightly simplify (e.g. "referred to as"--> "called") and somewhat reduce the number of semicolons. For a worked example of how I'd do this, please see my sandbox here.—S Marshall T/C 16:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Yep, that's exactly how it should be organized. I knew I'd lost perspective at some point & needed extra eyes. Thanks so much S Marshall for redoing it. We can probably paste that in as the next suggested draft. Victoria (tk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
    • I have no objections.—S Marshall T/C 19:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
• This draft does nothing to fix the main issue with this section, which is neutrality. I'm sorry, but we can't not mention that she consciously and repeatedly misgendered transgender woman in a section on her views on transgender people. It appears flat out dishonest, especially if we're going to spend a whole paragraph quoting her four-year-old essay, using mostly news sources from the day it was published, as the most recent expression of her views. WikiFouf (talk) 19:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Hi WikiFouf, so this is an iterative process & eventually we get to the point where everyone agrees. In my view, S Marshall's point re structure/flow is correct, so those changes should be made.
    As far as the refs for the four-year-old manifesto - that's covered in Whited & Henderson so all the old citations can be dumped & we can source to two 2024 high quality scholarly sources. Because those sources cover the manifesto, we really should too.
    As for the misgendering, if you're referring to India Willoughby - I thought about adding it, but the RfC seems to be failing. And, well, recentism. But the "She will not shut up" statement does cover the string of comments. We don't need a digest of her comments but an overview. Let's take this a single slow step at a time & see where we get?
    "Flat out dishonest" seems a bit strong, in my view. Especially given the last three days of migraines, so I'm basically ready to call it quits. You all can take it from here. Or scrub it all and begin new. Victoria (tk) 19:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
    • For clarity, I wasn't saying that your intentions appear dishonest but that the text does, something which I stand by. If you missed it, she tweeted a list of transgender women weeks ago, including India Willoughby (again), Munroe Bergdorf as well as a handful of convicted sex offenders (for good measure), and wrote that they were "men, every single last one of them". Again, this is a section titled "Views [of J. K. Rowling] on transgender people". Misgendering is not just an insult towards an individual but a flat out rejection of transgender identity; that I even need to argue for its inclusion here is beyond me. WikiFouf (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
      • Although I'm not delighted with WikiFouf's level of rhetoric, I do agree that Rowling's tendency to misgender trans people bears mentioning as a separate point. I'll add something to that effect to the draft.—S Marshall T/C 21:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

        The point I made was that omitting J. K. Rowling misgendering transgender people, in a section titled "Views [of J. K. Rowling] on transgender people", would appear dishonest. This is my honest concern. I did not call Victoria dishonest, I don't think that they are, I don't think being frank is low rhetoric. WikiFouf (talk) 21:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

        • • Don't worry, nobody here has any trouble at all understanding your point. For future reference: you can also say things less dramatically.—S Marshall T/C 22:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
      • Wikipedia articles strive to reflect the highest quality sources and avoid recentism and news-style blow-by-blow reporting. That's what Victoria-- an experienced FA writer-- is striving for, so let's aim for constructive criticism and concrete draft proposals rather than wording that can be easily misunderstood on the internet. I see no consensus on this page for bringing in blow-by-blow news-style unencyclopedic recent newsy issues; text that will endure is the goal. Thank you Victoria; your first draft work is appreciated! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

        @SandyGeorgia After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".

        This whole bit is backed only by breaking news sources, I don't see anyone here asking for its removal.

        As for recentism, "writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view", it isn't a blanket ban on anything recent. As far as I know, we have to actually talk about it, case by case. On my end, I have repeatedly explained why I believe her misgendering of trans women is important. If you believe it to be unimportant, please explain why. WikiFouf (talk) 03:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

        WikiFouf, I'm fairly certain I already explained that on this page, but I understand if it was lost in the volume, so please pardon my repetition. During the FAR, several editors read all the scholarly sources. We strove to cover that which was covered by scholarly or the highest quality sources, and give that material its due weight, although there were some places where the FAR was constrained by the result of a poorly conceived but well attended RFC, and we were stuck with some bits. And we all acknowledged then that those bits would need to be rewritten as better sources become available. Because some of the scholarly sources aren't freely accessible, at times we also substituted in a high quality news source when the material we were citing was also due weight according to scholarly or high quality sources. I hope that, along with Victoria's response, answers the question. Perhaps you will read all five archives of the FAR to understand how the collaborative editing process worked towards consensus in a collegial environment that developed once people understood it was an iterative process. Have you accessed and read all the scholarly sources ? I believe your other concerns are being addressed in the second draft below, which is headed now in the right direction, but we need to make sure our content conforms closely to the sources. You can see below concrete suggestions for text changes and improvements. Robert F. Kennedy was Rowling's hero and role model; do you think her giving back the award is misplaced in the article? Do you want GLAAD removed? Then say so in the next draft with concrete suggestions and see if you can find consensus. The Willoughly issue has been on the page for days and has not found consensus; there is a better way to write encyclopedic content than RECENTISM, and much content can still be expanded at the sub-article, Political views of J. K. Rowling, keeping this article conforming with summary style for a broad overview article of a very large topic. Have you been able to do some expansion over there? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• • • • • Not SandyGeorgia, but as the author of the draft & the person who read the sources the section you quote After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate", is all covered in the three or four 2024 sources I read. The Kennedy Award is covered; Daniel Radcliffe's comments are covered (leading actor); GLAAD is mentioned. I don't have the sources all open at the moment, but we can swap out the sources just as the sources for the other section you mentioned can be swapped. Personally I'd prefer to swap them as long as people okay with using far fewer sources. It's fine to put these things up for discussion in a collaberative and collegial manner. As for misgendering, I believe that's been added in the subsequent draft, so we can move on to that discussion and point out deficiencies there. Victoria (tk) 03:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

          I sorta/kinda prefer leaving in freely accessible sources at times, for the benefit of readers, but that's not at all a sticking point for me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

          Maybe a bit of both would work? There are some sources I'd marked for removal, so let's add it to the list of things to do for the next draft & see where we end up. Victoria (tk) 17:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

          I took the actors out of the notes, and actioned some other of WikiFouf's comments - will elaborate later. Am going blind again. Victoria (tk) 21:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Second draft

Main article: Political views of J. K. Rowling § Transgender rights

Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender. Rowling's statements have been called transphobic, and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist"). Her statements have shocked her fans, divided feminists, fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture, and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors. Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.

When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views, Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real". Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity." In another tweet in June 2020, Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real". Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender", writes the June 2020 tweet revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me".

Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron; and the charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate".

She rejected these characterisations and denies being transphobic, in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020, where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault. While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space". Of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny, she asks if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition had she been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class". Whited calls this a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans. Literary scholars suggest that French literary critic Roland Barthes concept of "The Death of the Author" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling; Henderson believes this does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".

Sources

Discussion of second draft

S Marshall the template that we used during the FAR for viewing drafts side-by-side is at User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox5#Draft_proposals; it makes it much easier to compare where we are versus what is being proposed. (Also, word count matters :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I get 466 words, compared to the 429 that were in the article before the edit warring, newsy edits started last month. I suspect 466 words can be justified as due weight relative to the new scholarly sources, and WP:SIZE would still be reasonable, but it would be good to hear from others on the size relative to her overall bio and work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Suggestions (it would be much easier to see the original and the proposed side-by-side):

1. The original Duggan wording (her views on sex and gender have provoked controversy) was changed to "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender." That's a significant difference: What does the source say? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Words can be trimmed and the issue above can be addressed by switching:
   • Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.[1] Rowling's statements[1][2][3] have been called transphobic,[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and ...

     to ... (controversy is implied by rest of context)

     • Rowling's stance on sex and gender[1][2][3] has been called transphobic[4][5] and she has been called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist").[5][6][7] Her statements have shocked her fans,[8] divided feminists,[9][10][11] fuelled debates on freedom of speech[12][13] and cancel culture,[14] and ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Is it possible to reduce overquoting here, without losing the thought? "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal and, in a few cases, flippant about gender identity." We should strive as much as possible to keep Featured articles in our own words (not always possible, and I'm terrible at it, but others might have ideas). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Rejig this to avoid tweet ... tweeted redundancy in the same sentence: "In another tweet in June 2020,[8] Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate",[24] and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real".[25][19]" SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson, self-described as "gender-queer...non-binary transgender", ... not necessary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:59, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
6. New paragraph, so ... She rejected these characterisations --> Rowling rejected these characterisations ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
7. (redundant) writes the June 2020 tweet revealed Rowling's SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
8. Serial commas were decided against in the FAR ... and denies being transphobic,[40][4] in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020,[40] where she stated that her views ... can be adjusted in next draft. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
9. Vague "literary scholars" ... one source is cited, so is it Whited suggesting this, or is Whited citing others ? "Literary scholars suggest that French literary ... " SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
10. The source says: Rowling commented: “I’ll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.” Our text says: "Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.") This needs work to better conform source-to-text integrity; if not possible, this might be an area where we might resort to a direct quote. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Sandy these changes are fine, with a couple of caveats:

• The "fanned the flames" quote can maybe be trimmed and should be attributed. I understand re overquoting but in this case a Rowling scholar is making the statement, which in my view holds some weight. If you or others disagree, maybe we can just delete that sentence
• Tolanda Henderson's voice, in my view, is important, not only because they are a talented young scholar but because they are transgender, yet immersed in Rowling's work. That should somehow be signaled.
• "literary scholars" >> Barthes is mentioned in Whited's "Introduction" and also in her volume by the author of "Accio, Jo" (the one who did the survey of fan fiction); in Henderson's "A Coda", published in Cecilia Konchar Farr's Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter", and in Konchar Farr's "Introduction" to that volume. Of the four essays I read it was mentioned four times. We can cite all four if needed. Or none. Or something.
• I didn't add the quote from the Independent, so leaving that for now.

I'm scheduled for a brain scan tomorrow, so don't know when I can get back to all of this. If I'm not back tomorrow, they're easy fixes that anyone else can do. Victoria (tk) 02:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope your brain comes out pretty :). My sutures come out Tuesday; maybe there will be a third draft up, consolidating all commentary, by Wednesday (too much typing for me until the hand works). On The Independent bit, I think the intent is heading the right direction (generalize), but she said something different. Hope you have good news in a few days! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I haven't had a headache for two years or more but something about Rowling seems to spark them. It happened during the FAR too. I'm sure all is well, but the dr doesn't want to hear about the Wikipedia/Rowling/dense mark-up in the edit window excuses :) I will be back when possible. Good luck with the sutures. Victoria (tk) 02:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• Ah, yes, that's reminded me why I don't touch featured articles. FA is its own subculture where everything I'd do elsewhere is always against some convention or guideline. Personally I prefer considering the new draft as a piece of writing in its own right rather than in comparison to a previous text, but going forward I will use the format.
  On the substance, I fully agree with both of you except:
  On point 1, I would defend my revision of the first sentence. Its purpose is to say what the issue is in simple terms and introduce the rest of the paragraph. It ought to be a simple declarative sentence in the active voice. The source is writing for scholars; but we're writing for curious, uninformed teenagers whose first language might not be English.
  On point 8, definitely don't string that many semicolons together. We're not writing eighteenth century literary fiction. If some authority has mandated "no serial commas there" then I'd tend to contest its reasoning.
  On point 10, I'm not summarizing Rowling's tweet. I'm summarizing the article about Rowling's tweet. We need a sentence about misgendering transwomen (nb: Rowling doesn't detectably do it to transmen).
  I'm happy to redraft if nobody else gets to it first!—S Marshall T/C 08:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  On point 1, we can avoid asserting something as fact in WikiVoice (which might not be supported by the source) by just rephrasing the whole construct as in point 2.

  On point 8, I'm not fussed about serial commas, but as we move towards a final draft, just something to keep in mind. Rephrasing usually resolves too many clauses.

  On point 10, we have a neutraility issue, since we're not reflecting what she actually said, or apparently thinks, if we take the context of her earlier statements together with that one quoted. What she seems to have said, in context, has been lost by some of the earlier deletions of content, which is why it's helpful to see side-by-side the last FA version (before the non-consensual changes started). The context of the quote in point 10 is about being "compelled" (by changes in law) to deny the reality of sex (wording she used earlier). This context of the change in laws was deleted by the non-consensual changes in the article, and by the time we reach point 10, we've now lost all context ... continued in response to Andrew below ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• The second draft does not seem neutral because it is one-sided – it presents criticism of the subject's views but fails to balance this with prominent support such as U.K. Prime Minister Backs J.K. Rowling....
  The last word is not given to a VIP like Sunak but instead to some quotes by Henderson. But who is Henderson? The reader has look back to find that this is Tolonda Henderson who is not sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia article. Their quoted views seem to be given undue weight because they are just cited to their own work rather than third parties.
  Andrew🐉(talk) 10:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well, I do think Victoriaearle's draft is right to give the last word to an academic study by an accredited Rowling scholar, rather than to a transparently politically motivated off the cuff remark by our unelected and totally-unqualified-in-sociology Prime Minister. In fact I see Victoriaearle's draft as excellent, needing only reordering and a few tweaks.—S Marshall T/C 10:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  @S Marshall: No prime ministers in the United Kingdom have been elected as such; being at all qualified in sociology is not a required qualification for the post. Bazza 7 (talk) 11:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for grasping my point.—S Marshall T/C 13:17, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  Accredited Rowling scholar? The draft gets the name wrong but they seem to be this person. They are still working on their PhD but have several masters degrees in a variety of fields such as religious studies. None of their theses seems to be about or related to Rowling and they declare that they are "no longer a Harry Potter scholar". Andrew🐉(talk) 15:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  I believe the text says Harry Potter scholar. The metric in literature is whether someone gets publishing and Henderson is being published very very early in their career. Whited cites them in the "Introduction" to her volume, so we can use her quote of Henderson's quote or just quote from Henderson. Fwiw, very view literary scholars have Wikipedia pages - not vastly published scholars such as Michael Reynolds who I use for Hemingway pages, so that's not a great metric. In my view Henderson's voice is valuable, so if consensus is needed to do so that process should begin before the next draft goes up. Victoria (tk) 17:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  Andrew gives another example of why we should see the last consensus version side-by-side.

  The context of the criticism (changes in the law) and support has been lost in the rapid-fire, non-consensual editing that begin in March. The last good version I can find before all these changes is here; the context of changes in law, and the fact that Rowling's views also have support in some sectors got dropped and those were not cuts that gained consensus, rather that stuck because others didn't edit war them back in. I suggest in Draft 3 putting that version side-by-side with the new proposal for discussion purposes.

  I don't pay much attention to "who gets the last word"; prose flow is more relevant. But I do agree that we've lost some neutrality that was reflected in earlier versions, and points 1/2 and 10 need particular work to more closely reflect sources and context.

  It might help to keep in mind that this page has many watchers who remain silent while we are drafting and until we get closer to a consensual draft; when we do, if the text is non-neutral, watchers do speak up, and it won't gain support for insertion, so working collaboratively towards compromise is key. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'd like better clarity on the "Literary scholars" line and otherwise think this constitutes a significant improvement. Simonm223 (talk) 13:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I have some issues with the way this new version seems to present Rowling's perspective nand Whited's quote on the subject. This seems to set up an idea that the disagreement with Rowling is the views that she is at times flippant, rather than presenting the description set out by Whited (or something like that) as a relatively NPOV descriptor, while also noting what the actual criticism of Rowling that has been presented is. At present, this draft somewhat increases the existing issue that this section seems to be rather from Rowling's POV, more than neutral -- missing out that she's posting personal attacks on trans people seems somewhat crucial. (On a more minor point: I feel like the sentence talking about Forsttaer would do better by being phrased as "In December 2019, Rowling commented [on Maya who had...]" would frame things more accurately than starting a sentence with "When Maya's employment contract was not renewed, Rowling Responded", because the currently suggested phrasing implied Rowling's comments were a response to Forstater's contract not being renewed (Feb 2019) as opposed to responding to the outcome of the employment tribunal (December 2019). WorthPoke2 (talk) 17:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree re Forstater, we need to explain that Forstater was let go for misgendering. That's in one of the sources I used. The "flippant phrase" will be cut for the next iteration. Thanks for posting these remarks - very helpful. Victoria (tk) 17:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

First sentence

Historic (20 words)	Proposed (8 words)
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws, and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.	Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender.

Sources

My position is that the version to the right is the better opening sentence. It's a topic sentence. It's a simple declarative sentence. It simply and accurately summarizes the paragraph that follows. And I don't see how anyone who's read the sources could possibly dispute it? A reasonable alternative could be "Rowling's views on sex and gender are controversial".—S Marshall T/C 13:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Quick comment and fwiw, my sandbox shows the first sentence as "Rowling's views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy", which is nice & declarative. It does look as though the gender recognition laws got cut b/c of word count, but it should probably go back in. It it mentioned on the sources. But I agree w/ S Marshall that it should start with a good declarative general topic sentence. Victoria (tk) 13:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

It's declarative but personally I might tend to prefer the active voice for a topic sentence? On the gender recognition laws—yes, you're right. How about two sentences? "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender. She uses X and her blog to share her thoughts about them, where she has been particularly outspoken about changes to gender recognition laws."—S Marshall T/C 14:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking it might be worth going back to the drawing board - reread the sources, take more notes, then try again with the first sentence. There are some good suggestions landing on this page. Victoria (tk) 17:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The Duggan source is attached to this sentence, but it's not very clear to me how "controversial" is all we're getting from that source for this opening sentence (MOS:CONTROVERSIAL), especially when this 2021 peer-reviewed article unequivocally states "Rowling’s personal, conservative views on sex and gender have recently been made abundantly clear through her repeated and escalating anti-trans commentary".

If NPOV is the concern for not using "anti-trans" or "anti-transgender" as a descriptor for the years of continuous activism that the paragraphs that follow describe (despite the Duggan source using the term), we should at least consider gender-critical (which has been used by high quality news sources and herself to describe her views). Umdlye (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that's useful. I made a mental note to reread Duggan and to make notes. Whited does use gender-critical, so that can easily be slipped in. Victoria (tk) 17:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Reiterating my thanks to Umdlye for checking the source for this. The words "controversy/contreversial" are not used in Duggan & the commentary (as frankly it is also to some extent in other critics) is framed in regards to the Rowling/Harry Potter fandom. The most relevant sentence is the one Umdlye mentions above Rowling’s personal, conservative views on sex and gender have recently been made abundantly clear through her repeated and escalating anti-trans commentary which only goes to 2020. So, yes, I think we should rethink how to start. Victoria (tk) 19:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Second try

Historic (20 words)	Proposed (5 words)
Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws, and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy.	Rowling is a gender-critical feminist.

Sources

Easy enough.  :)—S Marshall T/C 22:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we should have more sources but I also think that this is the best starting sentence proposed so far, and it's not close. Loki (talk) 22:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Not working for me, as I explained in the third draft section. Removes context, and we already work in gender critical later in the text. Restore context first-- Rowling's statements refer to changes in laws. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, Sandy, I'm stuck on this. Could you be more specific, please? Is your position:

1. That Rowling isn't a feminist?
2. That she isn't gender-critical?
3. That she's gender-critical and feminist, but not a gender-critical feminist?
4. That she's a gender-critical feminist but we shouldn't just come out and say it?
5. That she's a gender-critical feminist and it's okay to say so if we add more context?

Thanks.—S Marshall T/C 13:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Misgendering

• Context: A newspaper writes a speculative article about how a future Labour government could make misgendering into an aggravated offence, carrying a maximum sentence of two years at His Majesty's pleasure.
• Rowling tweet: I'll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.
• A different newspaper covers the tweet, using the headline: JK Rowling claims she would ‘happily’ spend two years in prison for misgendering a trans person.
• Proposed sentence about this: Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns.

What's the NPOV issue here?—S Marshall T/C 14:29, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not what she said, although it's what a (clickbait?) newspaper headline claimed. And context is missing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. It's accurate. Simonm223 (talk) 17:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

If the sentence is prefaced with "Rowling has said" (as it is), it is false as written: she did not say that.[5] She said “I’ll happily do two years if the alternative is compelled speech and forced denial of the reality and importance of sex.” It would be true if attributed, for example,

The Independent wrote that "Rowling has suggested that she would 'happily' spend two years in prison for misgendering a transgender person".

(It's still not what she said, and may not even be what she meant or believes, but we can't know, so attribute this as The Independent interpretation of her actual words, which were much more qualified than implied in the news report -- and that's why we have to take care with news reports.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• It's not a matter of NPOV; it's a matter of accuracy. WP:QUOTEUSE recommends that "Editors of controversial subjects should quote the actual spoken or written words to refer to the most controversial ideas." So, it's best to quote such tweets verbatim rather than paraphrasing them. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• I've just read the Independent article. The tweet itself is quite long & there isn't much context if only the tweet is quoted. Suggest we find something better. Victoria (tk) 20:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• I'm a big fan of writing everything in WP:OUROWNWORDS. I think that we have to mean what the sources mean, but we don't have to say what the sources say.
  The sources are writing for their audiences—often scholars, with the best sources—but we're writing for our audience which is the general public. A decent Wikipedia article manages down its Flesch-Kincaid score. We ought to write clearly, using topic sentences, and preferring short words and simple indicative or declarative constructions. Let's not feel constrained to crib sources' wording. Our job is to summarize the source, not repeat it.—S Marshall T/C 22:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• I agree, there's a nuance. The phrasing makes it sound as if she would rather be jailed than use any trans woman's pronouns. Her tweet doesn't say anything about "any". Not to be the broken record but we have a much clearer, more widely covered and more meaningful quote to include: she tweeted a list of trans women and wrote that they were "men, every single last one of them". You can't get more concise than that —WikiFouf (talk) 02:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I wouldn't be opposed to developing that idea instead ... at least it reflects exactly what she said. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Rephrase #1

Rowling sees transwomen as men, and she often uses her twitter account and blog to say so. She has shared a list of transwomen with her followers, writing that they were "men, every single last one of them". She declines to use feminine pronouns for transwomen.

I know, it's bloating again.—S Marshall T/C 07:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't provide context, and is still not what she said. The context, repeatedly, has been about changes in laws. That context was in the previous versions and should be restored, and we have to take great care to not put words in her mouth she hasn't said. It's possible to use preferred personal pronouns in one's daily personal interaction and not be opposed to doing so, yet still be opposed to laws that criminalize language. In the olden days, it was referred to as "freedom of speech". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

We have to explain why the trans community and allies are annoyed with Rowling. We can't do that fairly and accurately unless we discuss her refusal to stop misgendering people. We shouldn't give her tweet in full with all its weaselly self-justification because we only have 475 words. We have to reduce it to a hard-boiled nugget of telling it like it is.

Hate speech isn't protected speech, and rightly so. Your freedom of speech doesn't extend to racism, sexism or homophobia. Whether it should extend to transphobia is a live debate and I can see both sides of that, but if your position is that Rowling's fundamentalism about it should be protected speech, then I respectfully join issue with you.—S Marshall T/C 10:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think "freedom of speech" is a red herring here because the facts are pretty clear that Rowling regularly does say transphobic things, including misgendering specific people, on Twitter and that's a big part of why people are annoyed at her. It doesn't matter if she is legally right that she can't be punished for it. That is not the notable part of her statement. Loki (talk) 13:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

From the sources it seems that she's reacting to the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill and saying she'll misgender whomever she wants. Is this a correct reading? If so, then we have a scholarly source for the first part (Whited) and would need one for the second. Victoria (tk) 20:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it's more general than the Gender Reform Bill? The Independent article is about Rowling's reaction to the Gender Reform Bill, but it says at paragraph 8: Harry Potter author Rowling has frequently argued online that trans women are not women and last week vowed to continue “calling a man a man” despite what she called the “ludicrous law”. This is accurate: she has frequently argued this online in several different contexts. In fact Rowling's gender-critical tweets go back before the Bill was passed. (It passed in 2021, but the law wasn't enforced until 2024 to allow time for enforcement training. Rowling's gender-critical behaviour goes back to December 2019, although at that time she was speaking much more mildly and hesitantly than she does now.)—S Marshall T/C 22:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that it's not new but because there are proposed sanctions my sense from across the pond is that it's escalating. Can we write something like, Rowling continues to oppose gender self-designation,(cited to Whited p. 7) and last week vowed to continue “calling a man a man” despite what she called the “ludicrous law”. (Independent) Basically the post about people who menstruate says it all, but I'm getting the sense it has to be spelled out? Maybe? I thought the Henderson quote that it invalidate "People like me" spelled it out, but maybe not? Word count is always a problem ... Victoria (tk) 23:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Third draft (3.2)

Current 454 words

Proposed 472 words

Main article: Political views of J. K. Rowling § Transgender rights Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws, and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy. Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors. When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views, Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real". In another controversial tweet in June 2020, Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real". LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate". Rowling responded with an essay on her website in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault. While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms. Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny, she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class". Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017 – have been called transphobic, and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood. Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron; and the charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on X a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them". Police Scotland stated it had not received any complaints over the posts and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.

Main article: Political views of J. K. Rowling § Transgender rights Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender. She has been called transphobic, called a TERF ("trans-exclusionary radical feminist") and a gender-critical feminist. particularly since 2019 when she expressed support for Maya Forstater which sparked controversy, shocked her fans, divided feminists, fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture, and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors. Rowling has said she would rather go to jail than use a trans woman's preferred pronouns. Rowling wrote that she stood with Forstater, whose employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views. Rowling went on to write that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real". Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal". In June 2020, Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real". Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson writes the June 2020 post revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me". There have been substantial negative effects to Rowling's reputation: fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers became reticent to accept her work. Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and the charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. LGBT charities the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance. Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, and Eddie Redmayne and others expressed support for the transgender community. GLAAD called the the comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic, in an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020, where she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault. While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believes that public spaces, such as restrooms, should only be "same-gender space". Whited calls this a "public manifesto", which was the "final straw" for fans. Beginning in 2020, literary scholars, including Tison Pugh and Whited suggest that French literary critic Roland Barthes concept of "The Death of the Author" (to separate the author from the text) applies to Rowling; Henderson believes this does not apply because Rowling "will not shut up" and that "trans-exclusionary themes [are] baked right into the text".

Sources

Sources

References Notes Duggan, Jennifer (28 March 2021). "Transformative readings: Harry Potter fan fiction, trans/queer reader response, and J. K. Rowling". Children's Literature in Education. 53 (2): 147–168. doi:10.1007/s10583-021-09446-9. PMC 9132366. PMID 35645426. S2CID 233661189. Henderson, Tolanda (2022). "A Coda: She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named". In Konchar Farr, Cecilia (ed.). Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter. University Press of Mississippi . ISBN 978-1-4968-3931-2. Pape, Madeleine (2022). "Feminism, trans justice, and speech rights: a comparative perspective". Law and Contemporary Problems. 85 (1): 215–240. Retrieved 29 March 2022. Pedersen, Sarah (2022). "'They've got an absolute army of women behind them': the formation of a women's cooperative constellation in contemporary Scotland". Scottish Affairs. 31 (1): 1–20. doi:10.3366/scot.2022.0394. S2CID 246762983. Pugh, Tison (2020). Harry Potter and Beyond: On J. K. Rowling's Fantasies and Other Fictions. University of South Carolina Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctvs09qwv. ISBN 978-1-64336-088-1. OCLC 1142046769. S2CID 225791872. Steinfeld, Jemimah (2020). "Not my turf: Helen Lewis argues that vitriol around the trans debate means only extreme voices are being heard". Index on Censorship. 49 (1): 34–35. doi:10.1177/0306422020917609. S2CID 216495541. Suissa, Judith; Sullivan, Alice (February 2021). "The gender wars, academic freedom and education" (PDF). Journal of Philosophy of Education. 55 (1): 55–82. doi:10.1111/1467-9752.12549. S2CID 233646159. Whited, Lana A. (2024). "Introduction". In Whited, Lana A. (ed.). The Ivory Tower, Harry Potter, and Beyond. University of Missouri Press. ISBN 978-0-8262-2300-5.

Discussion of third draft

I've actioned many of the comments made on this page and encorporated into the next draft. There are still issues to be worked out & the text is growing, but this keeps it moving. Victoria (tk) 23:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC) P.s if anyone is interested, my work can be seen here. Victoria (tk) 23:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I think this draft is a lot better than past drafts as far as WP:NPOV and covering recent sources goes, but a lot of the wording is awkward. I'd rather split up some of the longer sentences here. Loki (talk) 03:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

1. The Hate Crimes para doesn't belong in the current; it is not a consensual change, and we should be comparing to where we started before all those changes.[6].
2. I'm thrilled that you pushed forward, but the word count is simply too high in relation to the overall size and weight of sources on her entire life and work. I agree with Loki on splitting some sentences, but first trimming will be needed.
3. The context (changes of laws) has been eliminated, and stating Duggan's opinion as fact, before explaining the context and evolution of statements, could be leading the reader. We repeat gender-critical later, so that leading sentence isn't needed. Get the context first (changes in laws), then in to opinions of the scholars whose focus is on gender issues.
4. I'm not sure we should use our precious word count on a laundry list of he said-she said, which was previously rejected; dropping that entire sentence will help contain the bloat.
5. Pending still is to work out the sentence that she did NOT say; how about if we delete that sentence entirely, and the "lived reality" tweet in favor of the more recent tweet suggested by Wikifouf at #Misgendering? We might use the Hate Crimes para in some form to incorporate that tweet, which I agree with Wikifouf is a better way of summing up her most recent stance.
6. How about if we trim some of her older statements like the "lure of womanhood" bit ?

Overall, tightening is needed to this version, as well as getting back the context and keeping under 475 words. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Re: point 3: when "gender-critical" is repeated in the first paragraph it is in the context of Forstater's views, not Rowling's.

The draft writer was aiming for a simple declarative sentence to open the section. If we're considering the Duggan source not enough context for this declaration, shouldn't we be aiming to back it up more instead of returning to vagueness? I would like to stress that "gender-critical" in the context of the Duggan article is already nuancing the language used there, and it is a term Rowling has used to describe her own views. Umdlye (talk) 13:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, yes, agree with your comments. Victoria (tk) 14:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Just wanted to comment that the reference in this draft to Forstater misgendering a colleague is incorrect. I am unable to see the source quoted, so unsure where this comes from, but a reading of the court documents [7] [8] would show this was not the case as confirmed in this interview with her solicitor [9]. Daff22 (talk) 09:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I wondered about that. It's gone now. Victoria (tk) 14:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll admit I like the first sentence less in version three than in version two but it is, in general, very good. Simonm223 (talk) 13:17, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

We're now at version 3.1. I've commented out a few things here & will clean up later. It's easier for me to action quickly before comments get lost on talk. I went with the first sentence until we get consensus on it (speaking for myself, I like it), but, yeah, maybe the change in laws should be put back in. It's not in Duggan. I also went with misgendering as it was until we get a better source & agree on wording. Sandy which sentence/section are you referring to re "he said, she said"? Victoria (tk) 14:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The bit about which actors support her or not ... we went over that several times during the FAR and decided it wasn't a good use of word count. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean it certainly presents a pretty clear picture of an age-divide with regard to reactions to her antics; and I think it's also relevant that the three actors who were the central stars of the movie adaptation of her books all distanced themselves from her. Simonm223 (talk) 17:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to reconsider the decision made during the FAR. In my view it's important to have at least Radcliffe mentioned b/c his comments made to The Trevor Project are covered in sources, and probably we should have Watson too. We could maybe slit the difference, mention some, shove others into a note. I hadn't considered Simonm223's point, but that's valid too. I'll add to unresolved issues. Victoria (tk) 19:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that the responses of Radcliffe, Watson and Grint are particularly relevant because of their prior position as something of mentees of Rowling's. However including that some of the older Potter actors supported Rowling would allow for some balance and neutrality rather than making it look like all the actors distanced themselves. So basically I'd strongly defend keeping in mention of the younger stars and would support mention of the older actors in the spirit of balance but don't see them as being as critical from a WP:DUE perspective. Simonm223 (talk) 20:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you're right. When I was thinking about this, it seemed to me that having Harry, Hermione and Bellatrix agreeing is something. So if anything, I'd want to see Helena Bonham Carter, but the list as is seems ok. Let's see what others say. Victoria (tk) 20:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223 @Victoriaearle I would maybe suggest using the framing used by Sutherland Borah in Ivory Tower, who writes: "The films’ millennial-age stars—Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, Bonnie Wright, Katie Leung, and Eddie Redmayne—expressed their support for the trans community." Mentions the three most relevant actors of HP (+ main actor of FB) without implying a consensus from the cast against Rowling's rhetoric, because it singles out the millennials. WikiFouf (talk) 21:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Perfect! Thanks so much. Do you have a page number off hand? If not I'll access it a bit later. Victoria (tk) 21:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks! Simonm223 (talk) 22:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

p. 375 WikiFouf (talk) 22:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean to rain on the parade, but I'm not at all satisfied with Draft 3, but don't have time to weigh in for a few more days. If I had time, I'd put up a Draft 4, but can't get to it just yet ... please remember that we need to come up with something that a broader audience will approve when we get to a point of putting it forward via something final, and I don't think we're headed that way just yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. I just put up the final one I'll work on. I wanted to do something with the reading I'd done, so jumped in while I could. We do need to work in the UK gender recognition laws (which needs linking), the misgendering needs to be sorted, and I'm not crazy about the stucture, but I'm a big believer in working the content until it's right. If it's going in the wrong direction, then we've discovered what we don't what. So it's all good. Victoria (tk) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

We're now at version 3.2, which has only small changes in response to today's comments. I've tweaked the first sentence a bit. Victoria (tk) 02:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I very strongly prefer "Rowling is a gender-critical feminist" to "Rowling has controversial views on sex and gender". The second version does not give any relevant information about what her views actually are, and also violates MOS:CONTROVERSIAL. Loki (talk) 03:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, starting with something about what her actions are (or at the very least, why they're controversial) is more encyclopedic than just saying "her views are controversial". -sche (talk) 20:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Disagree, "gender-critical feminist" is one of various labels that have been used to characterize her views and singling it out wouldn't be NPOV. I think we should write something along the lines of "Her views have been associated with transphobia and gender-critical feminism" WikiFouf (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm treading carefully here because my personal opinion of what to call Rowling would probably violate BLP standards; which is why I've mostly left this distinction alone. But I think we may be over-thinking this a bit. I guess where I'd start would be an examination of how Wikipedia frames the TERF occupation of the term. And the answer is that Wikipedia frames the TERF occupation of the term quite well. As such I'd weakly support "gender-critical feminist," notwithstanding my personal misgivings regarding the incompatibility of gender-essentialism with feminism, provided the designation has a wikilink on it to the associated Wikipedia article. Simonm223 (talk) 12:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The various responses ("sparked controversy, shocked her fans ..."): were they to her comments generally or her support of Forstater in 2019 specifically? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Good question. First of all, I put that in as placeholder and changed from from this version because in my view we have to be careful re what goes in Wiki voice & at this point it's best for someone else to come up with the next draft. As to your question: recent scholarly sources say her support of Forstater shocked/alienated and to muddy waters even more, framed in terms of fans vs broader population. Victoria (tk) 20:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

• The third draft concentrates on how Rowling's views have been received in the Harry Potter community and by diversity activists. But it says nothing at all about how this is playing in the wider world of mainstream UK politics. This is proving quite significant as the latest development is that the SNP leader now faces a vote of no confidence in which Ash Regan holds the balance of power. And Regan is very much an ally of Rowling. See JK Rowling may have the last laugh...

This follows prominent statements of support for Rowling by both Conservative and Labour representatives – U.K. Prime Minister Backs J.K. Rowling..., Labour’s shadow justice secretary ‘agrees’ with JK Rowling’s ‘gender-critical’ views. It appears that Rowling is getting support across the political spectrum and so is quite influential.

Andrew🐉(talk) 06:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Not sure we can assume that's because "Rowling is influential" rather than just because both transgender rights supporters and gender criticals span the political spectrum, despite what the culture warriors would have us believe. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 08:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson writes the June 2020 post revealed Rowling's "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me" garden-pathed me the first few times I read it, how about Potter scholar Tolanda Henderson wrote that Rowling's June 2020 post revealed a "stance that invalidates nonbinary people like me". Also I don't think there's any need for the information about Forstater to be cleft in two by the "would rather go to jail" thing. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion seems to have petered out now. Can we confirm that 3.2 is how we want to go? I still don't love it using wiki voice to call Rowling any kind of feminist but, as I was saying before, I'll accept it as long as it wiki-links to Gender critical feminist Simonm223 (talk) 01:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

We could probably do some more work on it. I don't think that it's perfect yet, though it's definitely a large improvement. Loki (talk) 01:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It needs more work in my view. I'm tied with some spring projects & can't get back here immediately but I've been letting it percolate. I'm thinking it's gone too far in the direction of what others think of Rowling rather than focusing on what Rowling believes. Ideally, since this is her bio & a BLP, the latter should come first. When my time frees up, I can take another crack at it, but in the meantime more than happy if someone else gives it a try. Victoria (tk) 02:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Fourth draft

Sincere apologies for the delay in posting this. I've re-ordered the ideas as well as cutting and rewriting.—S Marshall T/C 11:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Historic (454 words)

Proposed (401 words)

Main article: Political views of J. K. Rowling § Transgender rights Rowling's responses to proposed changes to UK gender recognition laws, and her views on sex and gender, have provoked controversy. Her statements have divided feminists; fuelled debates on freedom of speech and cancel culture; and prompted declarations of support for transgender people from the literary, arts and culture sectors. When Maya Forstater's employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she tweeted gender-critical views, Rowling responded in December 2019 with a tweet that transgender people should live their lives as they pleased in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real". In another controversial tweet in June 2020, Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real". LGBT charities and leading actors of the Wizarding World franchise condemned Rowling's comments; GLAAD called them "cruel" and "inaccurate". Rowling responded with an essay on her website in which she stated that her views on women's rights were informed by her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault. While affirming that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", she believed that it would be unsafe to allow "any man who believes or feels he's a woman" into bathrooms or changing rooms. Writing of her own experiences with sexism and misogyny, she wondered if the "allure of escaping womanhood" would have led her to transition if she had been born later, and said that trans activism was "seeking to erode 'woman' as a political and biological class". Rowling's statements – beginning in 2017 – have been called transphobic, and she has been referred to as a TERF, a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". She has rejected these characterisations and the notion that she holds animosity towards transgender people, saying that her viewpoint has been misunderstood. Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron; and the charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. After the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 had come into force in April 2024, Rowling, who resides in Edinburgh, tested the law by posting on X a list of transgender women, and wrote that they were "men, every last one of them". Police Scotland stated it had not received any complaints over the posts and that "no action [would] be taken" as they were not illegal.

Main article: Political views of J. K. Rowling § Transgender rights Rowling is a gender-critical feminist. She has often used Twitter and her blog to share thoughts on trans people, mostly in the context of proposed legal changes in Scotland that would make it easier to transition. She has said that "the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable ... Trans people need and deserve protection", but she opposes gender self-recognition. She feels that some transwomen are a threat to women and trans-positive messages can be a threat to children. She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them". Many people, including some of the principal film stars connected with her work, have condemned her remarks, although sales of Harry Potter books grew by 28% after she made them. Controversy over Rowling's gender-critical messaging has developed over time. Although it started in 2017, it became more fraught in 2019 when she expressed support for Maya Forstater, whose employment contract with the London branch of the Center for Global Development was not renewed after she expressed gender-critical views. Rowling wrote that transgender people should live in "peace and security", but questioned women being "force[d] out of their jobs for stating that sex is real". Harry Potter scholar Lana Whited writes that in the next six months "Rowling herself fanned the flames as she became increasingly vocal". In June 2020, Rowling mocked the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real". Rowling's views have impacted her reputation. Fans turned away from her work, boycotted events, and publishers hesitated to accept her work. Criticism of Rowling's views has come from the Harry Potter fansites MuggleNet and The Leaky Cauldron, and the charities Mermaids, Stonewall, and Human Rights Campaign. LGBT charity the Wizarding World spoke out against her stance. Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, and Eddie Redmayne and others expressed support for the transgender community. GLAAD called Rowling's comments "cruel" and "inaccurate". After Kerry Kennedy expressed "profound disappointment" in her views, Rowling returned the Ripple of Hope Award given to her by the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights organisation. Rowling rejects these characterisations and denies being transphobic. In an essay she posted to her website on June 10, 2020, she said her views on women's rights arose from her experience as a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault.

Sources

References Notes Duggan, Jennifer (28 March 2021). "Transformative readings: Harry Potter fan fiction, trans/queer reader response, and J. K. Rowling". Children's Literature in Education. 53 (2): 147–168. doi:10.1007/s10583-021-09446-9. PMC 9132366. PMID 35645426. S2CID 233661189. Henderson, Tolanda (2022). "A Coda: She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named". In Konchar Farr, Cecilia (ed.). Open at the Close: Literary Essays on Harry Potter. University Press of Mississippi . ISBN 978-1-4968-3931-2. Pape, Madeleine (2022). "Feminism, trans justice, and speech rights: a comparative perspective". Law and Contemporary Problems. 85 (1): 215–240. Retrieved 29 March 2022. Pedersen, Sarah (2022). "'They've got an absolute army of women behind them': the formation of a women's cooperative constellation in contemporary Scotland". Scottish Affairs. 31 (1): 1–20. doi:10.3366/scot.2022.0394. S2CID 246762983. Pugh, Tison (2020). Harry Potter and Beyond: On J. K. Rowling's Fantasies and Other Fictions. University of South Carolina Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctvs09qwv. ISBN 978-1-64336-088-1. OCLC 1142046769. S2CID 225791872. Steinfeld, Jemimah (2020). "Not my turf: Helen Lewis argues that vitriol around the trans debate means only extreme voices are being heard". Index on Censorship. 49 (1): 34–35. doi:10.1177/0306422020917609. S2CID 216495541. Suissa, Judith; Sullivan, Alice (February 2021). "The gender wars, academic freedom and education" (PDF). Journal of Philosophy of Education. 55 (1): 55–82. doi:10.1111/1467-9752.12549. S2CID 233646159. Whited, Lana A. (2024). "Introduction". In Whited, Lana A. (ed.). The Ivory Tower, Harry Potter, and Beyond. University of Missouri Press. ISBN 978-0-8262-2300-5.

Discussion of fourth draft

I think we need to look carefully at what the sources are saying. For example, Steinfeld says J.K Rowling has been labeled a TERF (2nd para)(as opposed to saying she is); Schwirblatt says that one side of the Twitter community labeled her a TERF in reaction to her #IStandWithMaya tweet (p. 368); Whited says "Rowling’s manifesto led some people to label her as a trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF)", (p.7). This is the reason I kept changing the first sentence; sometimes in response to comments here, sometimes in response to sources. Bottom line is that we have to be careful what we put in Wiki voice. That's why hedging is good, though it does result in tortured prose. But that's often characteristic of writing here. Victoria (tk) 15:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

• Would we prefer "Rowling's views are gender-critical"? I'm looking for a simple declarative sentence without vagueness, evasion, or waffle of any kind.—S Marshall T/C 16:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  I would support that if we feel like we need to for sourcing purposes, though I would say that we can use sources that phrase it like that to source "is a gender-critical feminist" in most cases. Depends some on the particular source, though. Loki (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's a reasonable fallback. I can't imagine a good faith Wikipedian reading the sources and then denying that she's gender-critical. I'd prefer gender-critical feminist because our page on gender-critical feminism so clearly captures what Rowling says.—S Marshall T/C 19:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  A couple of thoughts. First, we have to hew to the sources. If references exist for the sentence as written, then we should just swap out sources rather than use the ones that don't exactly support it. Another idea would be to use a three-pronged thesis, something along the lines of "Rowling's views about sex and gender have alienated fans, affected her reputation and [fill in the blank]". I suspect something like that would be easier to source.

  While I'm here a couple of other nitpicks: there's no source for the sentence "She has tweeted a list of transwomen, writing that they are "men, every last one of them". Right now it's cited to Pape but that article is about Ratcliffe if my memory is correct. Also, "principal film stars connected with her work, have condemned her remarks" is in the 2nd para & again in the 3rd. One mentioned should be deleted.

  The structure is looking much much better! Victoria (tk) 22:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, the duplication of principal film stars is one of my nitpicks, and I have a suggestion for how to fix it. If we're on the right track overall, maybe rather than add a list, I could just put up the next draft fixing these nitpicks? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'd prefer that alernate (16:36, 1 May) as well. Victoria's three-pronged idea works, too; I still dislike the declartive sentence in WikiVoice. And we don't know how she "feels"; we know what she has stated. Overall, I think this draft is headed the right direction. I've got my usual list of nitpicks that I'll put up if others agree that this draft is the way to go overall. I also want to point out that this kind of structured process works!!! If we get it close enough on the next version to call it final, we can ping the world for approval before installing, and then move on to using the same process to re-do the lead. Holding off on my list of nitpicks until others indicate this is close. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  With a reminder that this is where we started (some elements are still missing). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"She has publicly expressed her opinions on transgender people and related civil rights since 2017."

This sentence in the lead is very weasel word-y, isn't it? "expressed her opinions" is such a vague way of describing active attacks - it doesn't even make it clear if she's for or against trans people - and it goes on to carefully isolate criticism. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 13:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

If you could please read the work progressing on the talk page, it would help towards not bloating an already lengthy talk page with dated commentary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how noting a particular point about the lead - and noting a tag being added - is redundant to other sections not talking about the specific wording. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.9% of all FPs.} 18:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

"Transgender people" section should be re-titled as "Transphobia"

Why are we white-washing her transphobic views? Representing overt transphobia as simply her "views on transphobic people" is reductive. It makes her views sound way more benign than they really are, violating NPOV in the process. 98.116.173.242 (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't. Because it labels her, and leaves no room in a section like that for any supportive or neutral views of transgender people, and this is a WP:BLP which must maintain a neutral point of view. There is no ban on representing her transphobia in a section entitled Views on Transgender people, and well-sourced content on her transphobic views are welcome in that section. The heading is fine as it stands. Mathglot (talk) 02:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Reinforcing this - WP:BLP has a very specific and strident set of guidelines about how we can refer to a person and, in order for us to just say "Rowling is a transphobe," we would need the vast preponderance of reliable sources, including, in her case, academic sources to say "Rowling is a transphobe." Otherwise we simply cannot. That's why you'll see the fiddly and fussy discussions over minutia above. There's a pretty widespread sentiment right now that the article, as it stands, is not neutral or accurate regarding how Rowling has expressed her political views surrounding the rights of trans people. And a lot of effort is going into trying to correct that within the bounds of what we can do on Wikipedia. For more, though, we must use other venues than Wikipedia. Simonm223 (talk) 13:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)