Talk:Syrian Malabar Nasrani/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

John Abraham is half parsi and half syrian

John abraham isn't really a syrian christian.he even has a parsi name farhan.his girlfriend is bengali and i don't think he has identified with any community be it syrian christian or parsi.so how can he be called syrian christian.Linguisticgeek (talk) 08:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It is not a good idea to allow lait to represent a religious group. Should have religious leaders if there were one. If not, then none IMO. Student7 (talk) 16:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

List of Notable members of the Community needs review

Some of the Notable persons enlisted in the Article do not seem to belong to the Syrian Malabar Nasrani Community. For instance - Dr Sebastian Paul, K M Roy, John Brittas, K J Yesudas. Some of the names are repeated. For instance - Dr John Mathai, P C Alexander. Some of those who appear in the list have fathers belonging to other communities. For instance - Arundhati Roy and John Abraham. Again, I am not sure if persons like M S Valiathan have any Christian background at all (I could be wrong in this regard.)

Perhaps the list needs to be closely reviewed and trimmed. Too many names diminish the readability of the section.

Editors might consider.

Asarthose (talk) 16:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

If the editors decide upon trimming the "Notables" paragraph, some criteria need to be evolved or understood. Better to limit the list to durable characters - glamour persons and celebrities of the moment are "perishable commodities" - they could be excluded. Even the pictures given at the top right of the Article depicting such "heroes of the moment" could be reviewed.

Asarthose (talk) 08:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I trimmed them down. The list most likely shouldn't be there at all. There is already a List of Syrian Malabar Nasranis. Maintaining this list in two places is counterproductive IMO. Student7 (talk) 19:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

There still are two John Mathais and two P C Alexanders

I had mentioned above that the names of John Mathai and P C Alexander are repeated. Still, I do notice both these names in two places. By chance, are there, actually, two persons each of the two names? Asarthose (talk) 16:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

People/Saints

In the Box captioned People/Saints, certain names extraneous to Syrian Nasranis are seen. For instance, Mother Teresa, Francis Xavier, Garcia and Alvares. To be deleted? Asarthose (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem is the template which is perhaps mindlessly placed in every Indian Christian article. Why not place your comments on the template discussion itself. If no answer in a few days, then try inserting in WikiProject Indian Christanity discussion page. If still no suitable answer, why not just delete the template insertion in this article explaining that it is confusing to place a template that includes extraneous saints in article. A lot of Indian Christianity presentation has not been well thought out. We need to beat on people until they respond. (I am not hopeful and assume that you will have no suitable answer and will then delete it!). Student7 (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

17,480 people converted by St Thomas

According to Strabo (64BC-19 AD), Megasthenes (340-282 BC) wrote that during his time the population of India was divided into seven castes, (Ref: Strabo, Geographia’’ Book IV) and not four castes. Brahmins arrived in Malabar after the third or fourth century. How was it possible for St. Thomas to convert Brhamins in the first century? It is surprising to know that there were more than 17,480 people in Kerala in the first century. Any idea who followed St. Thomas and did this counting? This reference http://books.google.co.in/books?id=sOrglHSX6rsC&pg=PT100 Christianity in India: from beginnings to the present By Robert Eric Frykenberg P.100 is an unreliable source for this article. Action: ‘’deleted’’.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 19:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions & Reply

The famous Malayalam poet Kunjan Nambiar who lived in Kerala 1705-1770 doesnot write anything about this community. Does that mean the community was not existing in Kunjan Nambiar time ?

"Are you joking???!! 1700 probable means the arrival of british..lolz" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.160.209 (talk) 12:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Let me remind my enthusiastic friends who are so much fund of authenticity and historical proofs that we are talking about a region which was called as Lunatic asylum by none other than the Swami Vivekananda.

This is what Swami Vivekananda concluded after touring the princely states of Kerala “I have wandered into a lunatic asylum!' He was appalled by the horrors of the caste system practiced in Kerala some hundred years back and the prevaling social situation. I mentioned about this passage after reading the enthusiasm of some friends here, who have not much understanding about what they are talking.

As part of a constructive suggestion,

I suggest adding information about the archeological proof on recent Muziris excavations and a different section for the plates these Christian community got from the rulers.

In my point of view, the plate information is important as other than the Chrsitians and Jews no one has got these kind of privileges from any rulers in the history of Hindustan.

The poetic verbal bashings doesnot deserve reply and what I suggest is read either some books which are given in notes in this article before talking about improvements.

Terispalli (talk) 22:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I am suggesting few referance for adding a new section on Plates,

http://nasrani.net/2007/02/16/the-plates-and-the-privileges/

Please add further referances Terispalli (talk) 00:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Syrian Christians hide their Portuguese blood and Culture

The Syrian Christians used to be under the Persian or Eastern Orthodox Church, who did not accept the authority of Pope, prior to the arrival of Portuguese in 1498. They were an absolute minority of people hardly making 0.5% of the population estimated between 10000 to 20000 at the maximum. They were not talking Malayalam as their signatures in Tharisappalli Shasanam Tharisapalli plates (825 ad)was in three languages including Persian,palestinian and Hebrew indicating they are mixture of Arabs,Jewsa and Persians united by a single church.(Why should a Namboothiri or Malayali sign in different foreign languages?). They were using Syriac and Pahlavi as their litulurgical language in the church. In short they were living as foreigners speaking foreign languages living in port cities prior to the arrival of Portuguese.They indeed enjoyed high social status because of their position as foreign spice merchants. After Portuguese arrival in 1498 the Syrians abandoned Eastern Orthodox church Christians converted to Roman Catholicism the religeon of Portuguese and Europeans. The Jacobite or Western rite Orthodoxy Christianity again a Portuguese invention and become official only in 1550s. It is possible for the Portuguese mixed Syrians the Eastern Orthodox with its Asian origins was not acceptable.Western orthodox or Jacobite sect is a Subsect of Greek Orthodox sect so more acceptable to Portuguese.The different Chaldean Church and many other Syrian Christian Subgroups who accepted the Eastern orthodoxy in the 19th century had been Roman Catholics under the Portugues. The Portuguese created mixed blooded people wherever they went inducing them to accept the local culture and language(Brazil,Malaysia,Indias West coast of India).Sudden Population explosion of Syrian Christians to hundred fold and finally leading to the 23 percent of Keralas population was started by Portuguese themselves.The credit for making Syrians Malayalees also should go to Portuguese. The Syrian Churches unmistakebly display the Portuguese architecture.Their processions closely resemble those of the Portuguese. Their food habits including eating Pork and Beef is definitely Portuguese customs.Most of the Hindus or Muslims dont eat pork in India. Velankkani Church and St.Thomas Mount church of Santhome were built by the Portuguese and still revered by Syrian Christians. Many Portuguese preachers including Roberto De Nobili pretended to be Namboothiris while the Angilcan preachers pretended to be Aiyars.Syrian Christians do the same. In reality Namboothiris did not exist in Kerala at St.Thomas age. Syrian Christians like the Portuguese fail to understand the Jain Dravidian Tamil Past of Kerala and try to imagine Namboothiris and Nagas existed in ancient Kerala.In reality Namboothiris appeared in Kerala history only after 800 ad while Nagas appeared after 1000 ad after the repeated Northern Aryan attacks. Many of Syrian Christian songs including Ramban Pattu were created during the Portuguese era. Syrian Christians though few of them display Persian like faces most of them look like Latinos, fairer and bigger than Dravidians, the indigenous people. Even those who are darker display strong European features including long bones big stature and sharper or stronger features and aggressiveness like Portuguese sailors. If anybody read the church history of Syrian Christians can read details descriptions that their ancestors came from varied places including Tulunad, Tenkasi,Tuticorin, Mylapore and Visahappatinam and all these places which were under the control of Portuguese.Mattancherry and Angamaly which were Portuguese headquarters continue to be Syrian Christian strongholds. The so called Namboothiri converted priests of 17th century like Francisco Souriar and Carlos have Portuguese names. In short the Syrian Christian community is nothing but all those who gathered under the Portuguese umbrella and all those mixed with Portuguese.

Kerindigen (talk) 14:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

"The Syrian Churches unmistakebly display the Portuguese architecture.Their processions closely resemble those of the Portuguese. Their food habits including eating Pork and Beef is definitely Portuguese customs.Most of the Hindus or Muslims dont eat pork in India." ...Portuguese architecture?? dude..Santhome Basillica has got nothing to do with syrian christians.. 2.very very small no of ppl eat pork...3. Processions - Hindu culture...credit goes to Portguese for destroying Syrian Culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.160.209 (talk) 12:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

^This kind of gibberish can only come when someone cannot digest the superiority of Syrian Christians.I can very well say that Syrian Christians are here for long-may be much older than Namboodiris.may be Syrian christians are Immigrant Jews from Middle East.but definitely not Europeans.no blood of portugese does we carry unlike Latin Christians and their divisions like Konkani,Goan Christians.We are Proud of our ancestry.We are the Ruling class and if you cannot stop jealousy and mimicking the rants of RSS and right wing Hindu radical Organizations ,then Sorry ,we cannot Help. 59.93.10.252 (talk) 05:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I am none of the above. I doubt Nasranis can prove DNA from Jews, but they can try. So far nothing. As far as racial "superiority" goes, that discussion has no place here for anybody. Please stop! Student7 (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Putting down a few thoughts that come to mind..

1. How would you explain the complete absence of Spanish / related languages in today's Syrian Christian lingo, if a majority of us are indeed descendants of the Portuguese? In other parts of the world (as you mentioned, Brazil, Caribbean etc) you will find that the Portuguese mixed with the native population so much that the native population's original identity was lost and their language replaced by Spanish. Why did that not happen in Kerala, like it seems to have almost happened in Goa?

The real reason was that the Portuguese on arrival in Kerala found that their attempts to Latinize the existing Christian population lead to rebellion by the native Christians. The rebellion eventually lead to the Portuguese retreating back and Syrian traditions being restored.

2. As for the Portuguese influence in the churches built around Kerala, yes, that might be true. They did after all try to establish their authority there. The first logical place to attack and put their imprint of course, would be your place of worship.

3. And regarding the claim that Syrian Christians are foreigners : India was not the birth place of homosapiens, it was Africa. As such, all humans living in all other continents are living on foreign lands. Whether one arrives earlier or later at a "foreign" land does not in any sense make one a "native" of that land.

As an aside, to this particular user, I would suggest that you keep personal prejudices aside while trying to modify a wiki page. This is supposed to be neutral information, not vehement and impassioned claims that support megalomaniac tendencies.

Nasrani and Saint Thomas christians

I'm by no means an expert, but I'd think, that Nasrani should either be merged with Saint Thomas Christians or with Knanaya. --Pjacobi 23:16, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

^ Knanaya are a very small minority among Syrian Nasranis.and you think this article should be merged with knanaya?LOL!Height of Ignorance. 59.93.10.252 (talk) 05:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course no. Knanaya is a minute community, even some of the Syrian christians don't consider Knanayas to be a part of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.160.209 (talk) 12:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Why was the page on the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews removed?

I had added a section on the Nazi holocaust to this Talk page on the Nasrani community?Why was that removed?Is it because of the reluctance to accept a history of slavery that the Jews have had in past History or is it pure ignorance?There is also a general lack of acceptance amongst Christians in general that Jesus was a Jew?Why such double standards?The Namboothiri brahmin in kerala are Aryan?And they werent paraded outside of nations as slaves.I wonder what right Nasranis have to claim descent from them?There are people everywhere who has suffered and have been peasants but no one who has been paraded in public like slaves.Even the parayas and pulayas have a more respectable descent in my opinion but of course you might beg to differ in this matter?Please do not remove sections added to the article without explanations on why they were removed because this is unethical and immoral in a free world that encourages freedom of expression. And it is the saddest of realities that nations in Northern and Western Europe and elsewhere who were not ethnically Jewish fought for a Jewish Homeland in the middle ages(the crusades).I hope and pray that such wastages do not happen in the future and that there is an enlightenment in Northern Europe and a willingness to move away from CHRISTianity,because it is only too clear today that Christ was a Jew

Nasrani as an Ethnic community

You stated on the talk page of the article Nasrani that it should be merged with the pages Saint Thomas Christians or Knanaya.

No, it would be erroneous to do that. The article Saint Thomas Christians deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as a religious group and seeks to describe its religious denominations and other related aspects. While the article Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. (infact see the category in which the article Nasrani is listed at the end of that article).

In the same way that there is a significant difference between Jew and Judaism, there is a difference between Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians. Jew deals with the entire ethnic community of the people of Jewish heritage and descent, or those people born of a Jewish mother. But Judaism is the religion followed by the ethnic community of Jewish people. The two concepts do highly overlap and are related but nevertheless they are independent in basic aspects and is treated as different.

In like manner, the nasranis is an ethnic community and in that sense a single community. However the ethnic community has various denominations as a result of the portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis refering to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in english as Saint Thomas Christians refering to the various and diverse [[[denomination]]s between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of christianity.

The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition.

This aspect is already written in the first paragraph of both the articles. Please read them carefully. Else this article would have been merged long back. The article Nasrani deals with the traditions of the nasrani community as an ethnic people and their present life (which has to be expanded. Robin klein 04:12, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The above does not make sense to me!

And so doesn't:

"The early aramaic speaking 'Syriac'-Christians who came to Kerala (which already had a Jewish settlement in Kodungulloor) were Jews. This is because the identity of being Jewish is not purely religious, but hereditary; that is, anybody who is of Hebrew descent is Jewish by origin, and anybody who is born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of whether the person follows Judaism or not."

Genealogy and theology don't mix. A child is born Hebrew if his parents are Hebrew, Russian if his parents are so, but not Jewish and not Christian. Proposing that a child born to a Jew mother is Jewish, can only be accepted in religious belief or legal context but not ethnologically, likewise proposing that a Syriac Christian is in fact Jew because his great grand mother was Jewish or even Hebrew doesn't make sense in my opinion.

Hebrew is not synonym to Jew. There can be a Sioux Jew, a Han Jew a Hebrew/Semitic Jew and a Celtic Jew.

In a sense, any combination of heritage/religion/race/language, formulates a 'culture' that distinguishes a group of people, but elements of this culture are not transferred with genes as to become persistent and inherint across generations after the language, religion geography and way of life have changed. --Alif 00:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jewish identity and matrilineal tradition

Please read the article Who is a Jew. It could throw some light on this. In rabbinical tradition Jewishness is passed on through the mother to the child.

Jewish identity is not religious but rather an ethnic concept of descent, it refers to matrilineal tradition. This is a distinct concept of ethnicity and is often misunderstood in the present nation-state tradition of national identity. "Hebrew" descent refers to racial ancestory, while "Jewish" lineage refers to the matrilineal tradition. Judaism on the other hand is the religion followed by most "Jewish" people. But it is not the defining aspect of being Jewish. A person could be of Jewish lineage and follow another religion or be atheist. In either case he would still be jewish. Because he belongs to the jewish matrilineal tradition.

Christianity on the other hand is a "religious" identity, meaning anybody who believes in christianity is a christian. So a person who is of jewish lineage and who believes in christianity is Christian Jewish. Robin klein 04:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You said: "The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition."

I do not know anyone who would describe the Knanaya people as part of the Mar Thoma Church. I'm sure there are a few Knanaya people (of the only 250,000 world wide) that have joined the Mar Thoma Church. But the vast majority are within either the Syrian Orthodox (Jacobite) Church or the Catholic (Malabar or RC) Church. Additionally, while the Knanayas will rightly claim their lineage starting from Palestine, it is difficult to say how much they are today a separate ethnic group. The amount of intermixing in the past several centuries with indigenous people of Kerala is far more than the Knanayas will admit. Only genetic testing can properly answer this question.

A made up history

There is nothing much in this article that is part of the true history of the followers of Jesus in Malabar. Most of it is made up by some one very clever, who wanted to glorify their actions. If someone fakes a story, and ten people copy it then it becomes true. This article is a sum total of this kind of stories. At least it has given a good chance for many of it readers to argue. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Same can be said of every single religious tradition though right? Syrian Christian tradition is certainly as strong as most others. So why the hostility?

No, this is a good deal worse. The problem is that there are about six pseudo"histories" all purporting to relate the history of whatever you want to call indigenous Christians. They are all drastically different and refuse to construct a composite history, each insisting that their's alone is correct, and most containing egregious myths with no footnotes except from church brochures and not from serious researchers. For example, that Christians are descended from the ten lost tribes of Israel. I wish, but the latter were enslaved locally to the conquerors. They didn't go anywhere unfortunately. Most were dead within a few years as happened to most slaves back then. They didn't "migrate" anyplace.

Way too much fiction with new editors coming online every week or so to insert the old fables.

The problem is lack of scholarship, lack of credible written references which kept well in hot dry climates (mid-east, for example, but certainly not in India!). Or were re-copied before they deteriorated. Most weren't in the West, but even fewer in India for various reasons.

Exaggeration of contact with Eastern Orthodox. What true influence did "missionaries" really have in the long run? Probably little. Without contact, Indian Christianity "drifted" to the point where it was barely recognizable to the Portuguese. The latter were undergoing the Inquisition and were probably quite horrified at the differences when Christians were identified. At least some of the normal cultural icons in India had been anticipated in Europe as constructions of the devil! A true case of "East meets West!" Not a good combination and regrettably resulted in persecution. But, from the Portuguese pov, a good reason, however lame it seems to us today. Had they walked into a recognizable church, their reaction might have been a bit more benign! Student7 (talk) 19:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Most of what you've written is not coherent. I suggest you read a little about the various histories of any of the major world religions. Or pick just one, other than Christianity. There are as many disputed histories as there are scholars. That the Portugese did not want to accept Keralite Christianity had more to do with Imperialism/Colonialism than anything else. To say that a Portugese traveler would expect churches resembling their native land everywhere is shallow, caricaturizes the Portugese, and reveals an ignorant understanding of history. Christianity didnt then, and doesnt now, come with architectural blueprints.

Hmmm. Yes. But the Portuguese did not know that. Both Spain and Portugal reacted fairly badly to Incan/Mayan and other religious denominations. They assumed that there was one model for a church and theirs was it. Latter middle ages thinking. All Europeans essentially the same. Student7 (talk) 21:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Well i am still thinking that we have that west asian influence clearly evident in many families. There were many immigration happened from West asia. I truely believe that those jewish population might have attracted st thomas in here and the king were welcoming and giving priveliges to the chirsitans. In order to prove.. do we have jewish presence we need such a ydna result in the community and that is how it can confirm it. I see most of the syrian christian families believed that they have a history of st thomas are seems middleastern like or semitic like to me than we say we all are kerala converts.

I would say they can be some brahimn converted but what i m trying to say is that now all are middleastern like. They can be some or more converts by st thomas or syrian missionaries converted em but most of em melted in the semitc populations . Yes there can be still a lot of other ydna other than west asian dna can be found but if we look the person he could be more to the west asian side in our syrian christianity. If i could be completly brahimn or nair means, i should be in that community and my mother should be nair/namboothri, my wife should be nair/namboothir and my generations should maintain like that in order to be claim like that. but that is not happening in our syrian christian community.

Syrian christian culture and community is more to the suryani like and people eating habits. we can barely or few things compare things to the hindu sides. I used to think we are just like indian populations as hindus just converted to christianity by an apostole or missionary but now i m thinking it not quiet right but still an acceptable statement. The possible reason for all these is that there can be also a majority of chrisitan from anthioh came to malabar different perod of time and their presence being stronger and we had west asian contacts and bishops even if some denominations accepting it or not.

Perhaps there nairs or namboothirs converted now enter in to a majority of middleasterners started to blend in . A nair conveted guy might have married a middleasten based women thus guess what what kind of child borned. Again things began to change now there is not much namboothris or nairs can be trace among the crowd unless i know that i was a brahimn and i married a brahimn converted woman and my genereations which is not . Therefore that is the reason people are now more influenced to middleastern because of these influecnes in our community although their dna facts are different . Most of the members r middlestern like atleast some features is there may not because of they are truely pesian through their ydna or mtdna but these shapes and features and charasterics distributes among the syrianchrisitian community

Its quet true that lot of westasian immigrants had inculturation that many taken local or dravidian wives hence their generation mtdna can comes different . That does not mean their westasian influences is not on them , though these they did not mean to keep their orginality but they wanted to be like that. Or some west asian tried to maintiain their identity . And those families members might have selected to become bishops .Hence we the syrian christians have more dravidian influences than any thing.

I dont think that there was nairs and namboothris at the first century because the term namboothri is recent. But there can be some vedic brahimn converted or few such families converted , but that does not mean that syrian chrisitan identity is all about nairs and namboothris converted. This is pretty much the facT. If there was such a mass populations of brahimns converted it should have been reflected in many ways. looking deep in to the dna facts are confusing and it does not get you anywhere.

people used to say shemil ninum methran vannu means biship often came to malabar from anthioh and conduct holy qurbana. And people used to say that metran was fair like blood on his skin that if we ever touch him can feel blood reddish skin on our fingures and beautifu many syrian missionarries carried evagalize other and let them joined and mixed with them.

So i think more that we connect things ourselves to hinduisms we have indian culture. know that there were also muslim communties exist in malabar and many immigrant intermarried and also converts came and all seems one. I would say we have clear middleastern in both nasranis and muslims mapplias dravidian and some other features. It the matter to know many were used to say we are of ton of brahimn or nair converted which is wrong. Yes my friend the he still maintain a close frendship with jews who left isreal , from those jews he is giving us sureity that there were many jewis converted and they were the first christians.

yes st thomas also converted some brahimns families there is noting wrong to accept it It is hard to believe there was an established hindusim caste system in deep forest area todays kerala in bcs. There was many trade ship came murisis for israelites roman phonicians arabs etc. There is no proof of knanaya thommen to say recently named knanayas are the exact decendents. Instead there is immgrations happend bar yeshu, mar sabor iso and mar proth, knanaya tommen, jewish immigraiton etc.

Many experts giving surety that there where no such special communiites exist in the past one mentioning kanayas of cocubine communities of syrians prbably of knanay thommen group or later immigrant that accendently had contact with some fair skinned lower cast women. These generations revangeous to the nasrani community and kept their syrain blood pure as much they can over centuries. Many sryian or jews much later mixed with local and indianised. An elder a close friend of mine in california and confidently speaking of ancient nasrais that all were one long time ago. Shemayil ninnum achen vannu means bishops often came from syria and conduch holy qurbana. They often reached malabar through arab ships and they also brought families. He is very well aware of his past with armeanian immigrations. Know that syric transilated to malayalam only in recent centuries before all were in full syric and they were converts but most were members had connection to syrc language and orgin.

All experts /histrorian accepting that some of the vedic brahimns converted and there can be converts but later on many westasian immgrants joined and mixed with these chrstians and hence many of them has clear jewish westasian orgin though their yside still others are influenced to west asian and syric through these influences in many mainstream families of syrian christrian community.

We need to find WP:RELY material to cite to justify any claim. Some of the text here may be derived from church pamphlets pushing a mythological WP:POV. This material would need to be replaced with material actually researched by reliable historians. Not ones hoping for a particulary outcome. Student7 (talk) 00:56, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Religion

I had replaced the religion mentioned (Christianity) to include denominations like Roman Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy etc. But this edit was reverted. I feel it would be better to mention the denominations than the religion itself as it is obvious that Thomas Christians are Christian. This is how it is in most ethnicity articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timofeyevich (talk • contribs) 08:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

"Lost" tribes

What the old testament refers to as (in English translation) as "lost" tribes, does not mean they took a wrong turn somewhere and couldn't find their way back and wound up in India. What the term originally meant was that the remnants of these tribes of northern Israel, is that they were sold into slavery and completely lost their identity as they were either killed, used as concubines (the lucky ones), field slaves (unlucky ones), and mostly died off within a few years of captivity. Those that survived the march back home.

We are not really "looking" for them. Hanging a light in the window won't work! They died permanently 2500 years ago. Student7 (talk) 00:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

division and defiance

for section: division and defiance

Didn't the defiance of the RC church and the creation of the division happen as follows: 1) All Nasrani break away from the RC church. 2) The RC church authorities win back some of the Nasrani's to the RC church?

Therefore the figure as shown is wrong, and should be as follows:

|

   |----1653:All Nasrani broke with RC church------|----Orthodox---------
                                                   |
                                                   |---SCRC -or Malabar RC Church created after 1653

The Catholic church was a source of great annoyance and a lot of publicity has been devoted to this by churches which broke away. Particularly, I suspect since Indian Independence and a nationalistic feeling. Nevertheless, there are a lot of Catholics today in Karala. Are you saying that no Nasranis are Catholic? Is there a breakdown in a WP:RELY reference someplace? That would be useful. Student7 (talk) 23:55, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

....... Didn't understood ur logic. The Portguese came and tried to converted them to Catholicsm. But some resisted and Nasranis got split. How does that make RC the mother church? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.160.209 (talk) 12:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't sound reliable

A reference, "Claudius Buchanan (1811). Christian Researches in Asia: With Notices of the Translation of the Scriptures into the Oriental Languages. 2nd ed. Boston: Armstron, Cornhill" is used four times. 1) This was done in 1811, still at the height of anti-Catholic feeling. Therefore it cannot be used a reliable reference. 2) It is not online, and therefore not chosen by google, a possible indication that it is unreliable. 3) It is from 1811 for Pete's sake! Good grief! Nothing newer? If it were reliable, the same information using (most likely) better sources would be available in a modern, and less polemical work. It needs to be replaced with something at least in the late 20th century. But WP:RELY and scholarly, not with an axe to grind. Student7 (talk) 13:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

doubt in reliability of milligazette.com

the site milligazette.com is seen to be cited here. This is just to bring to the notice of fellow editors to check whether the site belongs to Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. Thanks. 117.204.80.72 (talk) 06:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that it is being cited only for the church spokesman's statement. It is not the analysis of the magazine which is being cited, but the fact that the church said what the magazine said it did. In the absence of some sort of disavowal, what reason do we have to doubt the accuracy of the quote? And what is so scurrilous about it that it should be questionable? In a ridiculous statement characteristic of these articles, it was deleted with the statement that it was a "venomous POV" and that "church says nothing like that". But what is so venomous about it? What requires extra scrutiny? Tb (talk) 07:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Tb, I won't accept that Gazette's authority; see my remarks in the edit summary. We can find better sources, and I'll try to do so later. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at it generally - it may not be the top online journal, but it seemed "reasonably" worded. People are quoted as saying... As Tb has said. I didn't notice anything outrageous (other than advertising itself!). Paid subscriptions are required. Back issues cost money. Not an on-the-cheap tabloid, it would seem to me. A quote is a quote. If you don't like it, that is understandable, but let's not "shoot the messenger!" Student7 (talk) 13:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Low caste

Referenced material was deleted that read: "Also, very rarely are there intermarriages between Syrian Christians and Latin Rite Christians (converted in the 16th and 19th centuries) in Kerala; the latter were converted mainly from lower castes where fishing was the traditional occupation.(ref)Fuller, C.J. "Indian Christians: Pollution and Origins." Man. New Series, Vol. 12, No. 3/4. (Dec., 1977), pp. 528-529.(ref)"

It seems to me that we should rather make this decision on its inclusion on the basis of whether it is true or not and the material is from a scholarly sourcee. This was India, after all, and caste was important. I would suspect that the information is correct BTW. It may sound tacky to Indian ears nowdays, but, as a Christian myself, I find nothing wrong with the statement per se. It sounds credible and not "derogatory" (unless incorrect, of course).

It does need to be germane. Student7 (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

First of all, even if it is correct, I dont see any logic as to why it needs to be here. Any Latin Catholic reading this, would stop then and there. My only objection was, to avoid words which are really not needed. Why would anyone want to say, Syrian Christians do not want to get married to Latin Catholic, when noone in kerala dosent like to get married to a different community. No Syrian Christian would want to get married to a Pentacostal Church and vice versa. When one line about Latin Catholic is written, then all the other unfortunate things , about all other Churches should be mentioned. I had just recently learned that Wiki shoould be secular and neutral. Thanks.Fyodor7 (talk) 09:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree about secular and neutral. But this does apply to presenting factual material from scholarly sources. The emphasis on scholarly. The tendency of Keralans to marry among themselves should definitely be reported but, granted, not isolated to one group only, and stated in neutral terms. Catholics (or Christians) being previously (illegal now, supposedly, right?) untouchables, should be reported if in much higher concentration than (say) Muslims.

But a true scholar would notice that. It is the reliability of the source that is important here. And, BTW, I am a Latin Catholic. And therefore, I believe in the truth! :) Student7 (talk) 16:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Third rate scholarship

The whole of the article, starting from AD 52, is third rate. Till recently, the community descended from Brahmins. Now they claim being descended of Cochin Jews. The somersault has occurred just recently! Community patriotism makes its votaries blind. And a scholarship matching its obscurantism. Asarthose (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Notables

There is an article for Notables in “List of Syrian Malabar Nasranis” where we can enter the names with or without their photographs, It is not a good idea for the editors to enter their favourite names in as many articles as possible, including this one. I wish that all of us agree to enter the names of Nasrani Notables only in the article “List of Syrian Malabar Nasranis” and remove their names and photographs from other related articles including this article. It is also better not to give more importance to one person than the others. I suggest that the photographs may be put closer to their names instead of putting on the top. Are we not all equal?Neduvelilmathew (talk) 08:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Is there something wrong?

117.196.133.6 on March 21 @13.33 replaced deleted images on Syrian Malabar Nasrani stating that there is nothing wrong in showing some important people in the main page. I have a few questions.

Who decides the important people among Syrian Malabar Nasrani?
About 100 important people are in the List of Syrian Malabar Nasranis. Are we expected to show all their photos on the main page, Syrian Malabar Nasrani?

There need an agreement among the editors before before dispute arises, Neduvelilmathew (talk) 04:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong in keeping the images. In wikipedia, every such article has pictures of 6 or 9 people shown. For example see Malayali, Ezhava. And as you say one cannot show all the 100 people in tha main page. But we just show some images. This is not to project any particular person. Please don't think that way. There is nothing untoward in showing the photos. Something is better than nothing. I'm replacing the photos. If you have anymore dispute we will discuss. But do not revert until we reach concensus. Follow WP:BRD. Leave the page as it was while we discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.139.196 (talk) 12:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Demographics of each church

After reading the article, it is hard to guess which christian denominations are the biggest in terms of believers within the whole Syrian Malabar Nasrani community. Could someone tell me

Syro malabar catholic church is the largest, followed by the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.117.196.165.135 (talk) 14:43, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

that?--Kimdime (talk) 07:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

It is doubtful whether the other churches have taken any census. They are not so big and so not boasting.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's bury the 'Namboothiry-Upper-Caste-Origin' Theory

The 'Namboothiry-Upper-Caste-Origin' theory is entirely unnecessary to bring out the origin of Christianity in Kerala. It also does not give any kind of superiority to the Syrian Christians today, if that is what some want. It appears some of the Non-Resident Keralites, who are ignorant of the present state of affairs in Kerala, are mostly putting forth or defending this theory. The caste scenario has undergone such a change in Kerala that members of the so-called "lower caste" are the real "upper caste" now, with the highest offices in the country - President, Chief Justice and so on - occupied by them and never occupied by anyone from Kerala's upper castes of the past. Financially also the situation has changed dramatically. Now there are more affluent people among those belonging to the lower castes of the past than among those from yesterday's upper castes. Besides that, the class, culture, values, as well as moral and ethical standards that those in yesterday's upper castes supposedly had, are all but absent in their offspring today. All claims of "superiority" of the upper-castes of the past have therefore no relevance today. So let's not put forward any "superiority" claim. Let's just say that St Thomas came here and many among local people became Christians through him. This is a 2000-year old belief. That's all. Some day we may get concrete historical proof - from the Muziris excavations or elsewhere. Until then, its only belief and tradition. Nothing more. Nothing less.116.68.82.194 (talk) 07:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

But the local people were mainly Namboodiris . The Patteril family , one of the oldest family in the Manjoor region ( which has branches all over kerala today ) is an epitome because the name itself has been derived from the word Bhattathiri . --Farmville (talk) 11:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Syriac origins?

It is written that the Nasrani Syrian Christians are one of the 10 lost tribes of Israel but is that really true? I mean isn't it possible that these Nasrani Syrian Christians were descendants of the Syriac missionaries who settled in Kerala?

http://www.nestorian.org/church_of_the_east_in_india.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by ILLeSt (talk • contribs) 20:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

yes, they are Syriacs, not Jews originally(wishful thinking). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.244.46 (talk) 17:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Gospel of Thomas in India

Hello Lawrence King. I've been reading the discussion above and notice that you say that the Gospel of Thomas was never in India ('No reputable scholar claims that there is any evidence that the Gospel of Thomas ever existed in India'). I've been researching this a bit, and I agree with your assessment. I was wondering if you had any scholarly quotes that actually say that the Gospel of Thomas was never in India? Thanks for your help. Woofboy (talk) 16:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, strictly speaking there are no scholarly quotes saying that the Gospel of Thomas never existed in India prior to the 20th century, for the same reason that there are no scholarly quotes saying that the Gospel of Thomas never existed in New Zealand or Antarctica before the 20th century. The idea that it did exist in India seems to have been invented by a certain Wikipedia editor a few years ago, and so far no scholars have bothered to publish papers addressing this claim.

However, I can give you scholarly citations that have the same impact: passages that discuss exactly where the Gospel of Thomas was known in the ancient world:

Bentley Layton, ed., The Gnostic Scriptures (New York: Doubleday, 1987; paperback 1995), pp. 360-364, 378-379.
Wilhelm Schneemelcher, ed., New Testament Apocrypha, Volume 1: Gospels and Related Writings translated by R. McL. Wilson (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 1991; paperback 2003), pp. 111-113.
Robert J. Miller, ed., The Complete Gospels: Annotated Scholars Version (Santa Rosa, CA: Polebridge Press, 1994), pp. 301-303.

Each of these books contains a variety of ancient documents, and each document begins with an introduction by modern scholars explaining the history of that document. The pages I cited above are the pages on which these books discuss the origin and distribution of the Gospel of Thomas.

These three sources represent a variety of views. The Schneemelcher book is the standard reference work in Germany and the English-speaking world, and is highly respected in the secular academy. The Miller book is sponsored by the Jesus Seminar, who have views that are considered eccentric by mainstream academia (and are considered heretical by many Christians). Layton is a prominent scholar of Gnostic literature.

And yet all of them agree on the basic facts: The Gospel of Thomas has been found only in three small fragments and one full text. The fragments are in Greek, copied in the late 2nd or very early 3rd century, and discovered in Oxyrhynchus, Egypt. The full version is in Coptic (Sahidic), copied in the late 4th century, and discovered in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. They all agree that the original version was in Greek, but that there must have been some textual variations because the Coptic version does not completely match the Greek fragments in meaning. They all agree that the text was originally written sometime in the second century in East Syria. However, they disagree about the history of the text before that point: the Jesus Seminar believes that there was an earlier edition (Gospel of Thomas, First Edition) created in Palestine in the late first century, which has been lost; the others don't see any evidence for that theory. But all of them agree that this text was known at most in Syria, Mesopotamia, and Egypt. None of them mention India.

Finally, it's worth noting another point. Traditional Christians (including Catholic, Orthodox, the "Thomas Christians" in India, and the majority of Protestants as well) believe that the four canonical Gospels were either written by apostles or were written in the second half of the first century by Christians who were recording traditions they had learned from the apostles, but the Gospel of Thomas is not a product of apostolic tradition (and in particular, it was not written by the apostle Thomas). Modern secular scholars -- both mainstream scholars and the Jesus Seminar scholars -- believe that the four canonical gospels were written in the late first century and contain significant amounts of non-historical or fictional parts mixed with fact; these scholars also believe that the Gospel of Thomas was written in the second century or perhaps the late first century, and is also significantly non-historical. In other words, all of these scholars agree that the apostle Thomas himself did not write the Gospel of Thomas. That is a point accepted almost unanimously on all sides. Therefore, if the story about Thomas going to India and founding a church there is true, it has nothing to do with the Gospel of Thomas! The Wikipedia editor that I argued with back in 2006 had apparently connected the fact that both of these groups pointed to the apostle Thomas as their authority and connected the two. But this is invalid logic: it's like assuming that Nietzsche's Also Sprach Zarathustra must have been written in Persia because it's named after the Persian prophet Zarathustra. — Lawrence King ^(talk) 21:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the comprehensive reply. That's just what I was after. What prompted me to ask was a reference on the New world Encyclopedia site (run by the Moonies: cp. [1] & [2]) that made the suggestion about Thomas in India.[3] I hadn't heard it before. New World is a re-edit of Wikipedia,[4] so it must've picked up the false info before Wikipedia was corrected.

Thanks, again. Woofboy (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Same group?

~~It appears to me that the article Saint Thomas Christians is describing the same people as does this article. Should not the two articles be merged? Horace Wheatley (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)~~

There are some attempts to make some distinction, but yes, the Nasrani are the same people as the St. Thomas Christians, and yes, the articles should be merged.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The two articles Syrian Malabar Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians describe the same people. But these two articles are written by two different groups among these Christians. Can you merge these two articles without hurting the other group?Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately both articles are in a terrible state. What we need is a total overhaul, in which we merge all usable information from both articles. And the title ought to be Saint Thomas Christians, as that's the most common term for the people in the English language.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think both the articles should be merged and rewritten to ensure NPOV. This article seems to have been written to establish St. Thomas Christians are of Jewish origin. Also 'Nasrani' is wrong; it is 'Nazrani' as it is derived from Nazareth.Govindsharma (talk) 05:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the articles should be merged and thoroughly rewritten based on reliable sources. Both articles describe the same group of people, and both are subject to their own slants which are the result of long-term tendentious editing. On another note, though, "Nasrani" is in fact correct and is the much more common spelling.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Any of you folks actually in India, or have access to scholarly, reliable materials on the matter?

I am. Let me know if you want me to assist. 14.96.11.200 (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

These are not the same groups. St. Thomas Christians are a subgroup of Nazranis. There are two kinds of Nazranis: St. Thomas Christians & Knanaya Christians --InarZan (talk) 16:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Nasrani Menorah

The term Nasrani Menorah is a recently coined word. (less than 50 (?) years). Earlier these crosses were known as Persian Crosses. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:20, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

St.Thomas was killed by King Misdeus at the Persian Gulf

Consummation of Thomas the Apostle The acts of St.Thomas written in the second century AD by Jewish historian Bardesan is the only record about St.Thomas visiting India. The India mentioned in the Persian records may not be Kerala but adjoining areas of Persia in the present day border between Persia and Pakistan which were then ruled by Persian Indo-Parthian Kingdom. Acts of Thomas written by Bardesan mentions Gondophares ruler of Taxila invited St.Thomas to build a palace for him. St.Thomas went to the nearby kingdom of Calamina ruled by king Misdeus in the Persian Gulf either in Persian or Indian territory. St.Thomas converted the Queen Tertia, son Juzanus and sister inlaw Mygdonia and relative Markia and Syphorus another official of the kingdom. All these names are unmistakebly Greek names of Persia (not Tamil Names). All these indicate St.Thomas visited and was martyred at Persia and not in Tamil Nadu. After some time the body of St.Thomas was moved to Edessa, Mesopotamia. Pope Benedict XVI denied St.Thomas ever visited Kerala recently-Popes remark.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Tharissapalli plates signatures in Pahlavi Kufric and Hebrew

Tharisapalli plates or Quilon plates issued by Aiyandikal Thiruvadikal, ruler of the Quilons Ay kingdom the were the first ever Dravidian record to mention Christianity in Kerala. In this copper plate issued to Marwan Sapir Easo the Persian trader in 849 AD the signatures of the recepients are in three languages Pahlavi (Persian),Kufic (Palestinian) and Hebrew indicating that the early Persian christian traders were speaking multiple languages. However historians like Ilankulam Kunjan Pilla opined that the second plate was perhaps written five hundred years later in the late middle age. It is not clear how a king lived in the 9th century could issue a plate written in the language of 14th century.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The invasion of Malik Kafur in 1310 AD

Till the invasion of Malik Kafur the no of Christians in Kerala was very few perhaps in hundreds. After the invasion most of the Tamil dynasties of Kerala became extinct and Tulu dynasties which practised Matriarchy and Polyandry appeared in Kerala{Tamils of Chera dynasty never practised Matriarchy). Till 1310 the number of Christians in Kerala were perhaps in hundreds living at Quilon and Madras. Many Naga subclans, such as Nayara Menava Samanta and Kuruba from Tulunadu of Bunt (community) established Matriarchal dynasties immediately after the attack. They brought Tulu Script from Karnataka to Kerala.The Christian proximity to the Naga invaders mutually benefited them. Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Jordanus converting Christians in Kerala

Arrival of European missionaries such as Jordanus a French Dominican missionary is believed to have converted about ten thousand people in Quilon to Roman Christianity. However when Vasco Da Gama came in 1498 he could see only Syrian Christians not Roman Catholics in India. This strongly suggests the persons converted by Jordanus Catalini perhaps got converted to Nestorian Syrian Christianity in the 14th century thus adding to Christian population in Kerala.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Syrian Christians served Portuguese as soldiers

The Portuguese who established an army in the 1500s organised an army perhaps headed by Syrian Christians. Numerous Padayattils (Army houses) exist among the Roman Catholic Syrians of Kerala. The Syrian Christian dress as seen in a Portuguese manuscript shows Syrian Christian wearing a European style coat with a state of the art Straight European fencing sword and a top hat. When Vasco Da Gama visited Cochin Nasrani Syrian Christians visited him and told him and brought him fruits and chicken and requested him to build a fort and conquer whole of Hindustan (Gundert as mentioned in Kerala Coast Portuguese Contributions). The political alignment of the Keralas Christians with the laterday Matriarchal dynasties of Tulunadu origin against the old Tamil dynasties alongwith their support to Portuguese increased the power and number of Christians. Roman Catholicism was the major religeon then. The Portuguese support to th Kingodm of Cochin was essential to its survival. When the Portuguese soldiers came the Matriarchal dynasties of Kerala had eroded the institution of marriage and Polyandry was common norm. The numerous indian wives of the five thousand strong Portuguese soldiers added to the Christian population of Kerala. These fair Christians practised Roman Catholicism building enormous churches in the European style. During the Udayamperoor Sunnahadose conducted by Alexis de Menezes, Archbishop of Goa in 1599 100 percent Christians of Kerala had accepted Popes authority. The Eastern Orthodoxy was replaced by Western Orthodoxy by the Portuguese. During the earlier era Syrian Christians had Arabic names eg. Marvan Sapir, Easo Mar Abdul Jaleel, Mor Ahadulla etc. After the Portuguese arrival the Portuguese encouraged Western Orthodoxy used Greek names and hardly any Arab names eg Kuriakose. Mattanchery was the administrative capital of Portuguese. Quilon,Thalassery and Angamaly are the places where Portuguese soldiers resided are now strong Syrian Christian populations. In these places Portuguese jesuit missionaries had printing presses. Books printed in Portuguese language or Tamil ( Lingua Malabar Tamul } was used by christians ever after Portuguese left. FLOS SANCTORUM written by Henriques in 1578 from Quilon. Later books written in Portuguese and Tamil were printed at Ambalakkadu near Angamaly by Jesuits even after Portuguese leaving at 1675. The Syrian Christian population was about 10000-20000 <1% of Kerals population on Portuguese arrival. It had become almost 10 percent of Keralas population when the Portuguese left. Anthropologically Syrian Christians show dolicocepahalic heads. Many show fair colour like Europeans with Latino like faces possibly because of Portuguese mixture. Some in Thrissur and Cochin show Chinese like features. Portuguese had a Chinese colony and Macau and had Chinese soldiers too. Some show Persian and Arab like physical features. Their customs and food are largly foreign and much different from Dravidian population of south India.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Syrian Christians adopting Sanskrit during the rule of British East India Company

During the Portuguese period most of the Christian books printed were in Tamil (Malayalam-Tamil) or Portuguese languages though Syriac was used in Churchse. The language used to be a kind of Tamil called Malayalam- Tamil or Malayanma and used to be written with Tamil Script. Keralas language contained only Dravidian vocabulary till British arrived. Namboothiris however used to talk a Sanskrit based language because of their North Indian origin ie Ahichatra written with the southern branch of Tulu Script and was called Grantha Bhasha or Tulu-Malayalam prior to 1800s. Johann Ernst Hanxleden a German priest was the first to write books in this Grantha Bhasha. British faced opposition in their attempt to rule Kerala with Thachil Matthoo Tharakan. In 1817 the British started Kottayam seminary started teaching Sanskrit and Tulu- Malayalam or Grantha Bhasha hiterto spoken only by minority of Namboothiris(0.3% of population) to Syrian Christians. In the 19th century British succeeded in replacing the Draividian language of Kerala with a Sanskrit based language with the help of Christian missionaries such as Rev.Benjamin Bailey working among Syrian Christians.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Beef and Pork VS Namboothiris and Jews

Though the Namboothiris dont eat Beef and Pork and Jews hate eating Pork the Syrian Christian menu includes both. Portuguese are known to have had the same diet too.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Five Hundred Years of European Colonialism

Five hundred years of European colonialism decreased most of the indigenous Draividian people to utter poverty. Only after British left India the Dravidian population of Kerala had revival. Kerala was used to be the ancient homeland of the Dravidian people and the Tamil Kingdoms such as Chera Dynasty Ay kingdom and Pandyan Kingdom existed in Kerala. The Portuguese, Dutch and British allied with the Aryan Namboothiris and Naga dynasties of Kerala against the Dravidian Dynasties ( Villavar, Meenavar,Malayar Pazhvettaraiyar Ayar Vellalar etc). British succeeded in uniting all the Non-Dravidians in South India with whose support they ruled Kerala. Similarly the Syrian Christians try to denigrate the indigenous Dravidian people. Syrians prefer try to identify themselves as Namboothiris and Jews. In all the other Portuguese colonies such as Mangalore and Goa the fair looking Portuguese descendents claim to be Brahmins too.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Beware of Zionism

It seems like a group with vested interests is trying to establish that the Nazrani people have Jewish ancestry. The same group is behind the website Nasrani.net. They are trying to relate St. Thomas Cross to Jewish Menorah by calling it Nasrani Menorah. Check their site. Their 'proof' for Jewish heritage is really funny. They say, St. Thomas, being an apostle, will baptize only Jews!! This is their proof for Jewish ancestry!! Govindsharma (talk) 03:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Mr. Govindsharma, the truth is that Surianies/Nasranies are descendants of Jews who became Christians, however, they have mixed blood (like all Jews all over the world today). The Surianies/Nasranies of Kerala have married Christians who were Brahmins before their conversion. One of the main antropological proof is the fact that Surianies/Nasranies of Kerala were always considered at par with the Brahmins (Nambuthiries) and were addressed by the lower caste people as "Thirumeni"(his highness/holiness) and “Thamburan” (Lord), “Thamburati” (Lady). This practice was very prevalent even about 65-70 years ago.

So also various Jewish traditions of everyday life (not merely of special days/occasions), such as considering the first fruit of your trees, first born male of your animals, first born male of human-beings as HOLY unto GOD and they were taken to the Church and offered/dedicated to God, just as Jews did for thousands of years as per the laws given in the Books of Moses. These practices were very common and regular among the Nasranies/Surianies even 30 years ago in my own family when I was a child/youth, and many of us still observe these things. This is apart from the observance of special days just as the Jews did/do.

Women were treated as equal but with proper well defined roles in the family which were different from those of men. Women took active part in all decision making for the family, and without their consent no final decision was made. We go to great lengths to make sure that we do not marry anyone who is connected by blood for at least 5 generations. Foods prohibited for Jews we did not eat, until recently in last few decades. The Style or method of social/family nomenclature is completely Jewish, that is we are known primarily by our family name, as "of the ______ family, son/daughter of _____ _____"; the family name runs throughout all generations. The FIRST thing we Nasranies ask each other when two strangers meet is "which/what family are you from"? Then who is your father and mother and the family name of your mother, grand mother and great etc.? We are known and recognized by the name of the Family (this is not the name of a caste but of unique family name). This also helped in not marrying anyone who has common ancestor for previous FIVE generation. This is a VERY LONG STANDING and strict JEWISH Practice/TRADITION. There are so many such small and not so apparent evidences that would take a serious study by a skeptic like you to see that we are indeed, Jewish descendants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.193.125.242 (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Syrian Christians were addressed generally as Nasrani Mappillamar. In the ancient times the sailors who sail from Persia were stranded for siz months in Kerala as the tradewind for the return journey blows only after six months. In this period the Nasranis form Persia get married to local girls hence the nickname Mappilla (bridegrooom).They were called Methanmar (Mel Tharakkaran mar) meaning the people from western countries. The Bishops are addressed by the Syrian Christian themselves as Thirumeni mimicking Namboothiri titles. Thampuran or Thamburatti are the titles reserved for Royalty of Kerala not used for Christians. Foreigners are addressed respectfully in Kerala as Sahib and Madama.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Christians were not the inhabitants of ancient Tamilakam including Kerala

Sangam literature written in Tamil between 5th century BC to 4 th Century AD never mentioned Christianity in ancient Kerala. The Romans who were persecuting Christians in the early centuries of Christ were found aplenty in the ancient cities of Kerala. The word Yavana in ancient Tamil meant Ionian Greeks as well as Romans. Silappatikaram written by Chera prince Ilango Adigal in the fourth century AD gives graphic description of Jainism and Hinduism but not Christianity. Christianity was not a known religeon to the ancient Tamils.The Chera dynasty was ruled by Villavar people supported by Vanavar, Malayar and Pazhuvettaraiyars and the Chera flag had Bow and Arrow (Vil) as insignia. Kulasekhara Perumal the founder of later Chera dynasty in 800 AD addresses himself as Villavar Kon in his book Perumal Thirumozhi written in Tamil. While the early Chera dynasty ruled till fourth century AD Later Chera Dynasty ruled from 800 AD to 1100 AD. Aryan Brahmins played no role in the predominantly Dravidian Tamil culture. Syrian Christians or Namboothiris or Jews were not part of the ancient Tamil Dravidian society. Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a clear attempt by Vilmeenkodi to foster his personal agenda and belief of truth into this page without any proof. I will call this vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sijucm (talk • contribs) 00:03, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala of Tamils

Ancient Kerala did not have Namboothiris. Namboothiris were brahmins from Ahichatra at the Indo-Nepalese border who were brought to Kerala in the fourth century AD by the Kadamba king Mayuravarma in 345 AD. Kadamba kings were arch enemies of Keralas Tamil Kings of Chera Dynasty. Namboothiri- Naga migration to Karanataka to Banavasi occured in the 4 th century AD. Namboothiris and Shivally Brahmins were inhabitants of Tulunadu which was considered enemy territory by the ancient Cheras till the 8th century AD. Though the Chalukya attacks on Kerala brought Namboothiris to Kerala in the 8th century.

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a reason why many Syrian Christians don't claim Namboodiri ancestory. infact, most of them are Jews who were living in West Coast of India much before Christ. St.Thomas looking up for lost sheeps of Israel landed here in Kodungallur. 59.93.0.66 (talk) 10:03, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I am a Nasrani (St. Thomas Christian). I fully agree with this statement that Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala. They must have reached the western coast only after the fourth century AD. There is no evidence to show that they were there during the first century, except in claims by some St. Thomas Christians of today.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Cosmos Indicopleustus was the first to mention Christians in Kerala

The Christian Topography written by Cosmas Indicopleustes in 550 AD was the first even mention of Christians in India and Sri Lanka then called Taprobane (Tamira barani in Tamil) or Serendib (Cheran Deevu. Cosmos says that he met Persian Christians in Taprobane and Kalyana (Kalyanpura or Barkur). He also mentioned Male where Pepper Grows probably was Kerala or Malabar Hills or Male in Maldives. Cosmos never mentions Jewish Christians or Syrian Christians but it is possible they were Nestorian Christians. Vilmeenkodi (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC) more informations we heard that st thomas also went to persia, and similar conversion story —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.102.59 (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Christianity was benefited by Colonialism

Ancient Kerala was then ruled by Tamil Dynasties such as Chera dynasty in the North ,Early Pandyan Kingdom and Ay kingdom. Though the Western Scholors claim that Christianity existed in ancient Kerala none of the Dravidian records such as Sangam literature document Christianity nor the presence of Jews or Syrian Christians.Christianity was at large not a known religeon to the ancient Tamils who ruled Kerala until 1310 AD.Silappatikaram written by Chera prince Ilango Adigal at his second capital at Kana Vayil Kottam near Cochin, gives graphic details about Jainism which was then the major religeon in Kerala and about Dravidian form of Hinduism and Buddhism.

Tharisapalli plates written in Tamil issued by king Ayyanadigal Thiruvadikal of to Marvan Sapir Easo an Nestorian monk in 825 AD is the first authentic record to mention Christianity in Kerala. In the Tharisapalli plates the Nestorian recipients of the plate have signed in Hebrew, Pahlavi(Middle Persian) and Kufric (Palestinian) indicating they are of diverse nationalities and ethnicities united by Nestorianism. The Portrayal of Syrian Christians as the descendents of Nambudiri Brahmins converted by St.Thomas was part of the Colonial strategy of European Colonialism.Nambudiri Brahmins migrated from Ahichatram (Rampur) in the Uttarkhand to , during the rule of Kadamba king Mayuravarma as mentioned in the Tulunadu Gramapaddati and Keralolpathi in 345 AD. Nambudiris appeared in Kerala only in the 8th century AD after the Chalukya attacks.

St.Thomas's visit to Kerala is also not supported by any Dravidian records of Kerala. The Persian records of Edessa, Mesopotamia does mention St.Thomas visiting India but the portion of India visited was not Kerala but the adjoining provinces of Indo-Persian border,the Taxila in Pakistan.Ancient Taxila was ruled by Gondophares who founded the Indo-Parthian Kingdom for whom St.Thomas was assigned to build a palace. Acts of Thomas written by the Jewish poet Bardesan at 220 AD mentions the martyrdom of St.Thomas at the hands of King Misdeus who was a ruler of adjoining country in the Persian gulf or Indus Valley for converting the Queen Tertia, son Juzanes, Sister in law Princess Mygdonia and Courtiers Syphorus, Markia, Charisius. All these names are Greek names.The Acts of Thomas clearly states that St.Thomas was martyred at Calamina at the Persian Gulf and not in Kerala.

After the invasion of Malik Kafur in 1310 AD and destruction of Tamil Kingdoms of Kerala, European Missionaries started coming.Till the arrival of Jordanus a French Dominican Missionary in 1321 the number of the Christians in Kerala was only in hundreds.Those converted by Jordanus at Quilon to Roman Catholicism after the departure of him perhaps adopted the preexisting Nestorianism. When Vasco da Gama arrived in 1498 only Nestorian Christians belonging to Church of the East existed in Kerala.

The Portuguese who arrived at Kerala soon organised a 20000 strong army at Mattancherry at Ernakulam while the army barracks was at Angamaly. Between 1498 to Synod of Diamper (1599) Syrian christians were integral part of the empire in the Portuguese India. The Portuguese soldiers were encouraged to marry local ladies often resulting in multiple mistresses resulted in greatly increasing the Christian population in Kerala. All the Christian denominations including Syrian Christians were integrated by Portuguese after the Synod of Diamper in 1599 under Roman Catholicism.Syrian Christians had accepted the authority of Pope then. Few Syrian Christians allegedly peacefully demonstrated at 1653 at Mattancherry the Portuguese administrative capital before Koonan Kurisu, a bent cross against the Portuguese domination.After the Portuguese left in 1660 the Christians of Kerala who were Roman Catholics founded various churches. While Syro-Malabar(1651) church retained their affiliation to the Roman Catholic church, the Malankara church joined the Oriental Orthodoxy under the Patriarch of Antioch. All these laterday churches had been integral partd of Portuguese Catholic church. Like the Portuguese the British East India Company accorded high status to Syrian Christians.Thachil Matthoo Tharakan was appointed as first ever Christian minister by the British East India Company.Many Christians were appointed as judges in the early 19th century. Vilmeenkodi (talk) 19:58, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

AK Antony, Syrian Christian ??????

AK Antony is Latin Catholic, how come we have his pic here??Credit Risk (talk) 09:45, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

നസ്രാണി = Nazori not Nasrani

The English transliteration of സുറിയാനി മലബാർ നസ്രാണിക is totally erroneous. It seems like the article was first begun by a Muslim. In Islam they call all Christians "Nasara" and singular is Nasrani. But the correct transliteration of നസ്രാണി would be Nazori or Nasori. No other Christians in India Use this term, only we do, but Nasrani would apply to all the Christians in the world from a Muslim point of view. Can someone change to the correct transliteration please? 81.103.121.144 (talk) 12:54, 26 February 2011 (UTC) The name is clearly the same as that Philaster referred to as Nazorei/Nazarei (as too thought Jerome). "The sect of Filaster (Nazorei/Nazarei) derives somehow from the Nazirites and accepts the Law and prophets." ft.12, p.73 'Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament period until its disappearance in the fourth century' By Ray Pritz 81.103.121.144 (talk) 01:08, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi,

Can someone who understands better the beliefs of the Nasrani/Knanaya church explain to me why, or if, there is any connection with the problem edits at Notzrim claiming that Nazarenes predated Christ back to the time of Jeremiah? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:17, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Files in this article

The pictures of some of the Syrian Malabar Nazranis are included in this article without any rhyme or reason. There is no way of finding whether they are really Syrian Malabar Nazranis. Either delete all these or allow others also to include the pictures of their friends and relatives.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Anna chandy judge.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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52 AD

(Regarding this edit and the associated edits wars): I accept that there is a traditional claim among the Syrian Malabar Nasranis that St.Thomas arrived in Kerala in 52 AD and agree that it should be mentioned as such. But, there has been no credible historical evidences to prove it. It is well agreed in academic circles that the date of 52 AD is a claim and not something historically proved. Moreover, many historians have made suggestions that St. thomas's claim of having converted Brahmins is contradictory, as Brahmin migration took place a couple of centuries later. There were sources that say that no evidences were found which was removed by the user.

Ishwar Sharan's "The Myth of Saint Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple" dissects the claim and tells that there is a strong christian tradition for the date, but no evidences. Man, Volume 11 published by the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland says (p.54) regarding his Kerala visit: "However, most scholars agree that although St Thomas could have come, there is no conclusive evidence". There are many many sources that establishes.

In such a context, you cannot bring in fringe claims of having found evidences by someone like "Dr.Benedict Vadakkekara" with an unverifiable citation. The point is simple, there has been books written by christians and the church toiling to establish that their account is backed by historical evidences. But, it has been unequivocally academically agreed that such claims eventhough could be true, are not backed by credible historical evidences. I request the user to follow WP:BRD and act only upon the consensus arrived in this discussion. Arjun^codename024 16:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Notice for deletion of sentences

Proper citation is missing for the following sentences in the article from 2010 onward. Since the authenticity of the information is dubious, it could be deleted soon.

It has been suggested that the term Nasrani derives from the name Nazarenes used by ancient Jewish Christians in the Near-East who believed in the divinity of Jesus but clung to many of the Mosaic ceremonies.[23][citation needed] They follow a unique Hebrew-Syriac Christian tradition which includes several Jewish elements although they have absorbed some Hindu customs[citation needed]."

--Ashleypt (talk) 12:48, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Modification of some biased portions

Following portion introduced: The Syrian Malabar Nasranis are the descendants of the local people who could have been baptized by St. Thomas or one of his disciples Ref:

Origin of Christianity in India - Page 61: a historiographical critique By Benedict Vadakkekara ISBN 8174952586, ISBN 9788174952585
Orientalia christiana periodica: Commentaril de re orientali aetatis christianae sacra et profana, Volumes 17-18
A. Sreedhara Menon : A survey of Kerala history - page 99
Edgar Thurston and K. Rangachari - Castes and tribes of Southern India, Volume 1 - Page 408 ISBN 8120602889
Ramananda Chatterjee:The Modern review, Volume 18 - Page 33
Stephen Neill- A History of Christianity in India: The Beginnings to AD 1707 - Page 33 ISBN 9780521548854
Nathan Katz: Who are the Jews of India? - Page 19 ISBN 9780520213234
Vincent Arthur Smith and Stephen Meredyth Edwardes: The early history of India from 600 B.C. to the Muhammadan conquest: including the invasion of Alexander the Great- The Clarendon press
M.M Ninan: The Emergence of Hinduism from Christianity - Page 10 ISBN 1438227310
Adrian Hastings: A world history of Christianity- Page 149 ISBN 0802824420
The Travancore state manual, Volume 2 - Page 122 ISBN 8185499330
Census of India, 1961: Kerala:Volume 7 of Census of India, 1961, India. Office of the Registrar General

The following paragraph is partially modified and new portion is introduced after changing the title:

Socio-Cultural and religious identity (Changed from Jewish Traditions) St.Thomas Christians had an identity of their own. Though their liturgy and theology remained that of East-Syrian Christians of Persia, their life-style customs and traditions were basically Indian. It is oft-quoted - "Nazranis are Hindu in culture, Christian in faith and Syrian in liturgy"[74]They succeeded in preserving the high social status because they were Christian in faith and liturgy, but in all else, they were Indians. They proud of the apostolic origin of their church. But, their primary concern was to live in harmony and requite the hospitality shown to them by the then Kerala kings and chieftains. Reference: Nazrani.net [5] Taylor & Francis: A History of Eastern Christianity - Page 377 [6] Presence of converted Jews in the early Christians had significant effects on the liturgy and traditions of the entire community.

The term Nasrani was used essentially to denote Jewish followers of Jesus from Nazareth, while the term Khristianos "Christian" was initially used largely to refer to non-Jewish peoples ("gentiles") who followed the Christ (Acts 11:26).[14][15][16][44][45][76] Until the advent of the Portuguese in the 16th century, a distinct identity in Kerala was formed, with some Jewish customs and Eastern Syriac liturgical traditions.[44]The community adopted some of the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship. Their ritual services was and still is called the Qurbana (also spelled Kurbana), which is derived from the Aramaic and Hebrew term korban (קרבן), meaning "sacrifice". The Nasrani Qurbana used to be held in Syriac. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashleypt (talk • contribs) 13:52, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Cultural identity

Some descriptions added to explain the cultural identity of Syrian Christians with necessary citation. One sentence unrelated to the topic has been shifted under the heading "Nazrani". A possibility for the title "Mappila" as proposed by some historians has been added under "nazrani" --Ashleypt (talk) 15:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The heading: "Socio-Cultural and Religious Identity" is better to be kept without any extension as it gives better coverage to both Jewish and Indian traditions and practices. Otherwise heading should include both "Indian and Semitic Traditions" to keep a balance of views. --Ashleypt (talk) 12:19, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Nazrani Symbol

The interpretation given to Mar Thomma Sleeba is arbitrary. The citation given for the dubious interpretation is related to Menorah, a Jewish candelabra only. I'm quoting the cited Bible Verses below:

31 And you must make a lampstand of pure gold. Of hammered work the lampstand is to be made. Its base, its branches, its cups, its knobs and its blossoms are to proceed out from it. 32 And six branches are running out from its sides, three branches of the lampstand from its one side and three branches of the lampstand from its other side. 33 Three cups shaped like flowers of almond are on the one set of branches, with knobs and blossoms alternating, and three cups shaped like flowers of almond on the other set of branches, with knobs and blossoms alternating. This is the way it is with the six branches running out from the lampstand. 34 And on the lampstand are four cups shaped like flowers of almond, with its knobs and its blossoms alternating. 35 And the knob under two branches is out of it and the knob under the two other branches is out of it and the knob under two more branches is out of it, for the six branches running out from the lampstand. 36 Their knobs and their branches are to proceed out from it. All of it is one piece of hammered work, of pure gold. 37 And you must make seven lamps for it; and the lamps must be lit up, and they must shine upon the area in front of it. 38 And its snuffers and its fire holders are of pure gold. 39 Of a talent of pure gold he should make it with all these utensils of it. 40 And see that you make them after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.

To assume similar interpretation to Marthoma Sleeba without proper citation is purely arbitrary and violation of Wikipedia policies. Moreover, nowhere in The Holy Bible or Jewish Torah, any interpretation has been assigned to Menorah. The given interpretation in this article suggests, the the central shaft symbolizing Jesus and six other branches symbolizing God the Father. But in all relevant references including Wikipedia Page:Menorah, the central branch symbolizes God the Father. Also the contentious portion is not supported by any other references which suggest the given interpretation. Since it's a sensitive and contentious issue, the portion could be removed unless supported by reliable and verifiable sources. --Ashleypt (talk) 10:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Ashleypt,I agree that the interpretation of the Nasrani symbol based on the Jewish Menorah is contentious. However I should add that even the interpretation of the Nasrani symbol as christianity coming to land of Buddha is very contentious and a very recent one and questionable. After all these are interpretations and not ascribed definitions. thanks Robin klein (talk) 20:03, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Robin, Interpretations could be included, but here the issue is different. Buddha-related interpretation has been taken from verifiable source, while the same misses for Jewish interpretation. In Jewish tradition, primary interpretation for Menorah is the symbolism of seven planets and the secondary one is a little similar to the given one. Moreover, no historians seems to support the link between menorah and Mar Thomma Sleeba. Menorah with a cross is totally different in design and appearance vis-s-vis Mar Thomma Sleeba. Whatever be, kindly cite the source of Jewish interpretation if there are any? --Ashleypt (talk) 08:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Ashleypt, I do not know any references for it. You may remove it if you feel so. thanks Robin klein (talk) 14:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Ashleypt and Robin,

Glad to see and read the discussion on this topic, “Nazrani Symbol” and “St. Thomas Cross.” It seems that this name Cruz de Sam Thome (St.Thomas Cross) was first mentioned by Antonio Gouvea in the Sixteenth century in his book Jornada do Arcebispo Aleixo de Menezes quando foy as Serra do Malaubar published in 1606. It was in this book a number of stories that are mentioned in Syrian Malabar Nasrani were first published including “Cruz de Sam Thome”.

I agree with the interpretation given to Mar Thoma Sleeba is arbitrary, it is contentious. It is stupid to compare this Cross with Menorah. This does not agree with what is given in the Torah and the Bible. (as pointed out by User:Ashleypt). No historian will support this view. From Jewish sources, I have read their interpretation on Menorah, which is clear and Biblical.

Mentioning Buddhism means coming to the real point. The base of this cross is a Lotus, a sign of Buddhism and not that of a Christian. The inscriptions are in Pahlawi language (Persian) not a language of St. Thomas Christians. Most probably, a cross with a dove, and inscriptions in a Persian language, is a Manchæeism cross. The burning torch and the dove both represent Paraclete. “Mani sought to pose as Christ and proclaimed himself the Paraclete.” (ref: Eusebius. The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, Bishop of Caesarea Chapter XXXL, The error of the Manichees, which commenced at this time. For more details please read Manichaeism.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 01:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Robin, I believe in protecting data as far as possibility of truth could be traced and information could be decoded on further research. I haven't deleted it, but tried to wikify the portion under discussion according to available sources.

Dear Mathew, I'm aware of such a hypothesis, but very few people support the view. It was used as a tool in the propaganda against Mar Joseph Powathil about 10 years b4. Whatever be, now most of the Syrian Christians have accepted it as a Christian Cross, and hence it could be mentioned as such in the article --Ashleypt (talk) 13:58, 11 October 2011 (UTC)