Talk:Syrian Malabar Nasrani/Archive 1
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|Archive 1||Archive 2|
- 1 New Section Lifestyle
- 2 Editcs and Plates
- 3 Article - Quality Rating
- 4 Reconstruction of the Malabar Nasrani story
- 5 No evidence for the early St.Thomas christians and The arrival of St.Thomas to Kerala
- 6 Syrian Christian army of Portuguese in 1524
- 7 Syrian Malabari Nasranis were the loyal subjects of the Portuguese king
- 8 The Mestizo and Pretos of Portuguese mixed people
- 9 Persecution by Portuguese
- 10 Nasrani DNA
- 11 Kerala Christians are a mixture of Syriac/Persian/Palestine and Portuguese
- 12 What's the cite?
- 13 Stone Cutters
- 14 Patrilineal genealogy cladograms
- 15 "Nasrani" is a redirect to "Saint Thomas Christians" instead of "Syrian Malabar Christians"
- 16 Hebrew manuscript found in India and other evidences
- 17 On the Syrian Christians (Nasrani Mappilas) and their origins --Veliath (Posted to Kerala's Talk page)
- 18 njana snanam
- 19 Nasrani dietary tradition and Jewish Kashrut
- 20 near 2000 years diaspora
- 21 Articles are not to be merged
- 22 How can Jews be Nasranis?
- 23 Mappila , Methans and Poola Chetan
- 24 About the title Mappila and Nasrani, Nazrani, Nazraney,Mar Sapir Iso
- 25 Mar Sapir Easho
- 26 Syrian christians were not Jews but descend from Asura or Assyrians
- 27 The Syrian Christians appear only after 800 ad in Kerala History
- 28 Are A K Antony and K J Yesudas Nasranis?
- 29 What are the Jewish traditions followed only by the Knanayas?
- 30 Nasrani Culture
- 31 Needs Correction
- 32 Removal of data from Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani
- 33 Changes on Content
- 34 Dont link Churches on this article
- 35 Recent edits on the term local people
- 36 Bot report : Found duplicate references !
- 37 Accusations of vandalism
- 38 A doubting Thomas?
- 39 Merger?
- 40 Syrian Rite
- 41 Related Ethinic Group - Ezhava
- 42 Wrong picture ?
- 43 Incorrect information
- 44 POV
New Section Lifestyle
I suggest adding a new section on Life Style,
The Syrian Christians of Kerala By S. G. Pothan Marriage Among Indian Christians By Mariamma Joseph Cultural Heritage of Kerala: An Introduction By A. Sreedhara Menon India in 1500 AD: The Narratives of Joseph the Indian By Antony Vallavanthara, A. M Tarijanel (talk) 04:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Editcs and Plates
Article - Quality Rating
Editor Tinucherian has recently rated the article as B class in terms of quality. He does not, however, appear to have furnished the required justification for it. I don't know if others too would subscribe to his assessment.
As for me, Start Class seems to be the appropriate rating. As mentioned in the Talk page of St Thomas Christians, the contents need to be strengthened, language improved, and a more balanced picture given.
Reconstruction of the Malabar Nasrani story
It is interesting to browse through the articles on various communities like Gowda Saraswatha Brahmins (GSBs), Nairs, Namboothiris, Punjabis, Sikhs, Chitpavan Brahmins etc, and compare them with the twin articles on Malabar Nasranis and St Thomas Christians. All of them contain (a) many myths and legends, (b) some fragmented truths here and there that can be pieced together, and (c)some other splinter truths that can't be put together.
Of these articles, the two Christian articles are, prima facie, the most deficient in objectivity, charged with bias and sentiments, showing a sort of haste and hurry to reconstruct a magnificent and self-glorifying story, exhibiting some sort of complexes and impatience to well-meant criticisms. Missing links are easily conjured up, with "community patriotism" and poetic/romantic imagination playing a large role.
The contributors and editors predominantly being members of the community anxious to project themselves in the best of light, no wonder, objectivity is lost.
Sometimes when a story is cogently made up based on "references" including some foreign endorsements, the conclusion fails to gel with common sense. (Obviously, the references themselves are defective, often based on hearsay.)
Thus it is that the Namboothiri story is unable to stand the test of scrutiny. Some of us validly argue that Namboothiris were a in high position and they were not in need for conversion to a foreign religion. Others may advance paradoxes in demographic statistics then and now. Yet others may say Namboothiris were non-existent in Kerala then. All these are valid reasons to deny the Namboothiri claims.
Now, consider this. Jesus himself was a lower class man born into very poor circumstances. His disciples (including Thomas) too were low-born. And, in Palestine, their "target groups" were lowly men and women, sinners and prostitutes. That being so, how come Thomas abruptly shifted this Christian paradigm in Kerala, got onto a different platform and adopted a pick-and-choose policy to cover only Namboothiris for the benefit of salvation?
I mention this paradox just to illustrate how even carefully contrived reconstructions fail to appeal to common sense.
Similar is the case with the much-maligned Portugese persecution. True, there was an inquisition in their own territory of Goa for political reasons. But, in Kerala, no. You can bring any "reference" to "prove" the phenomenon in Kerala, including foreign quotes (which are based mostly on indigenous folklore and hearsay). And reliance on such references and "testaments" will perpetuate the error for time without end. Even AD 52 is not buttressed with evidence. Ramban songs and Buchanans were far removed in time from the events they narrate. But an encyclopedic article need to be based on verifiable facts.This is not to say legends and doubtful assumptions cannot be included in the article. They may be added to give it some colour, but not as infallible historical facts.
There are attempts on the part of "historians" abroad for constructiong missing links in quite many stories, like the Mary Magdalene story, Jesus' brother story, etc, and present their discoveries as "cogent" stories with or without their filmy presentations to gain fame and fortune. They are deliberate attempts at cheating. I am not in the least hinting any such dishonourable intention on the part of the Nasrani community to falsify history.
I also take this opportunity to add that my intention in recording this note is strictly honourable and that it is not for offending anybody. And certainly, I should not be accused of being a wolf-in-sheepskin, a frequently-used accusation by priests whenever they dont like someone.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 18:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC) i would say there are many syrian assyrian people reached malabar. as knanaya claiming these people never meant to be orginal. they mixed but their syrain traditon expanded. even they start mixing with latin. hence we worring we have latin blood wrong. it the matter that sryrian everywhere. we can even see spot nice featured syrian christian even is CSI. even jewish themselves mixed except some later migrated jews from spain or something and thousand were at mala and one historian friend sure that many of jewish converted because they did not have no choice except orthodox jews stayed as jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 05:10, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
No evidence for the early St.Thomas christians and The arrival of St.Thomas to Kerala
No Sangha literature of any other Dravidian source indicates the presence of Christians in the early centuries after Christ. Even if they had survived they were not known to local Dravidian people who were predominantly Jains and Buddhists not Hindus as the Syrian Christians assert. Namboothiris were not present in that era. Now safely christians assert that they are Brahmin converts. Nelkinda (talk) 15:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree & disagree. There is no evidence that St Thomas visited Kerala strictly in the "historic" sense with "hisoric" proof. Also, AD 52 could at best be a conjecture or some sort of compromise or approximation. But the fact that there is a large segment of people in Kerala today following Mar-Thoma-kind of Christianity, living in reasonable prosperity, claiming two millenia's antiquity, with historic hints and references spread over this period, is a solid fact that cannot be ignored. My point of view (POV) is that, continual Mid-East interaction and influence in Kerala over this long period brought about a populace, majority of whom were a cross section of indigenous people who embraced the new religion, supplemented by foreigners (say, Jews, Syrians, Arabs, Persians etc) and their mixed offspring. And I also imagine that the foreigners who interacted with the indigenous population must have been men of great influence to be able to bring about such a new foreign religion. St Thomas himself may or may not have been one of them. But those who came carried similar influence over the then Keralites.
As mentioned in the section above, the "references" given in the article are relatively of opinion-quality and of point-of-view consistency that we should not rely too much on them for any conclusion.
Syrian Christian army of Portuguese in 1524
In 1524 the Portuguese who came with few ships and 300 sailors who were mostly criminals suddenly became a super power in India.In his three letters Syrian Methran of the Eastern Orthodox Church Mar Jacob 111 alias Rabban Masud promised the Portuguese Governor D.Joao 111 that the Portuguese will be provided with 25 thousand strong army of Syrian Christians.
Career and Legend of Vasco Da Gama 1998 . When the total population of Syrian Christians was between ten to twenty thousands.to organise the 25000 strong army of the Portuguese the Syrians should have recruited the disgruntled Hindus from all over south India. The mixture of Portuguese with the Syrians and the disgruntled Hindus made the laterday Syrian Christians.The assertion that Syrian Christians fought Portuguese in 1658 is ridiculous. Portuguese could not have fought their own army and blood.
Syrian Malabari Nasranis were the loyal subjects of the Portuguese king
It is a ridiculous claim that Portuguese ever torured Syrian Christians. When Portuguese came around 1498 the Syrian Christians rallied behind the Portuguese. Soon by the early 1500s the Portuguese had dealings with all the local rulers of Kerala to get extraterritorial rights(and perhaps southern Tamil Nadu too)to make the Christians of south citizens of Portugal. From 1500s to 1675 the Syrian Christians in all the local kingdoms in Kerala, paid tax to the Portugal kings and were citizens of Portugal not Kerala. They even organised armies for Portuguese.
K.M.Panikkar Portuguese and Malabar 1929. loyal subjects of Portugal
The Mestizo and Pretos of Portuguese mixed people
AT the arrival of Portuguese the Syrian Christian population was around 20000 but soon it exploded. Quilon had around 3000 Christians. The Portuguese soldiers and officials had numerous concubines and wifes among the christians and native hindu population.Their descendents were called Mestizo. Similarly the Black slaves of the Portuguese when mixed with the native produced Pretos.These people moved to the inland Kerala where the spice was cultivated where they built huge Portuguese styled churches with Portuguese inscriptions. The Portuguese unlike the Namboothiris and Jews had Pork in their, Menu. Keralas sea shores in Quilon, Trichur and Cochin still the Mestizo descendents use Portuguese sirnames. But amazingly in the inland they completely disappeared possibly by mixing with local indian christians. By1550s the Native Syrian Nazrani Christians started having many Portuguese traits including the Roman Catholicism. Most of the early churches were either rebuilt or built by the Portuguese though the Judeo Namboothiri Chrisitians of 20th century want to give the credit to the Thekkumkurs and Vadakkumkurs. If the local kings built those churches it should have been having Indian architecture not Portuguese with Portuguese plaques. Not only Roman Catholicism was adopted by the Syrian Christians but they abandoned the Eastern Syrian church and joined the Western Orthodox church which had Greek (latin)origins and more acceptable to Portuguese. Within a matter of a decade the Eastern Church of Babylon and the Nestorian faith (founded byNestorius in 428 ad) had been abandoned completely by the Indian Christians. Some retained eastern rites while giving the allegiance to the Pope not the Eastern Church. Western Orthodox Church (Jacobite) had originally had Greek as prayer language, while in the later days Syriac translation of original Greek texts was used. The many sectos of latterday Syrian Christian churchs are synthesis of Portuguese Catholic faith and Eastern Orthodoxy.The Portuguese could be behind the great schism which converted the Eastern Chrisians of Babylon to the followeres of a latin Western Orthodox Jacobite church. Teh Prayers told in Malayalam were originally Greek texts translated to Syriac and then to Malayalam and thus have a latin Charecter. The Roman Catholic church, including RCSC was definitly the handywork of Portuguese though isolated churches allegedly existed in Quilon as early as 1200s. There is no evidence of conflict of interests till the end of 16th century. Even the Koonan kurisu declaration was done quite late in the Portuguese period almost ten years before their exit by dutch. The declaration was done in a Portuguese territory by the then Portuguese subjects.
Persecution by Portuguese
It has been claimed that the Portuguese persecuted the Nasrani. Yet no evidence of that claim was brought forward. How many Nasrani were killed or imprisoned by the Portuguese? Do we know the identity of anyone was killed or imprisoned by the Portuguese? Why were they killed or imprisoned by the Portuguese? Was this merely the result of military and imperial ambition, or was there more to it?
The only evidence presented is that a few books were banned; and the Synod of Diamper made some changes to the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari. It is clear that Aleixo de Menezes was motivated by misguided zeal. It is clear that a schism was the result. But that hardly seems to justify the term persecution.
--Sophroniscus 23:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
References of Nasrani persecution
The Nasrani people along with the Malabari Jews were definitely persecuted by the portuguese. Here are some references of Nasrani persecution from the texts of H. H. Meyers, Benjamin George Wilkinson, Ph. D. and others. The links to these texts are also provided.
"The Portuguese not only persecuted and killed all the bishops as they came from Antioch but their metran .... ..... And those Syrians who opposed his designs were persecuted and put to death." ("The Syrian Christians of Malabar" p.23).
"The Portuguese also inaugurated slave trade by seizing able-bodied men and women ..... .... slave market in Goa." ("The Syrian Christians of Kerala", 1963, p.31). by S.C. Pothan
"Besides hunting down heretics, Jews, new Christians, and all who were accused of Judaizing (that is, conforming to the ceremonies of the Mosaic law, ..... ...... the Goanese Inquisitors also replenished their dungeons with persons accused of magic and sorcery." from The Syrian Church in India, by Rae p. 200.
Robin klein 15:18, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I shall take a look at it. As I said, I am basically ignorant of these things.
The article seems to presume that the Nasrani wish to return to the (nostalgic) past. I wonder how many actually desire that. And of those who do, how much has been done to recreate what they feel has been lost to them? --Sophroniscus 18:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- I have repeated my edits (deletions) to two unsubstantiated sentences. Since your reversion said "see the Talk page", I wanted to clarify my intention.
- I have no intention of denying that the Portugese persecuted the Nasranis, and none of my edits alter anything about this persecution. However, the two sentences which I deleted go well beyond that:
- No reputable scholar claims that there is any evidence that the Gospel of Thomas ever existed in India.
- The purpose stated by Menezes was to erase all legacies of antiquity and Jewishness.
- When you reverted my previous changes, you said in your comment, "rv pov dubious deletion on the pretext of dubious statements, please see discussion page for references of persecution of nasranis by the portuguese". Again, I am not denying this persecution. And this is not a "pretext". The sentence above claims that Menenzes announced, "My purpose is to erase all legacy of antiquity." This is an astounding claim, and it requires some sort of evidence. Lawrence King 06:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The Nasranis of Malabar are of Hebrew or Israelite(Jewish) heritage but not much is known of their past, making it difficult to be certain that they are also descended from the 'Lost Tribes'. (Ref. Dr. Asahel Grant's 'The Nestorians or the Lost Tribes of Israel' for more about the Nazarenes and Nestorians). There is Y-DNA(specifically Haplogroup J) found in many Nasranis today. Most of the Nasranis might be mixed ofMalayali, Jewish, Persian,and Portuguese ancestry through historic and genetic evidence.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:50, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- The sole link for the DNA claims leads to a page that states the following and nothing more:
- "We have 49 Members now and are expecting a lot more to join up. So far the indication is that we have lots of surprises in store. There are indications of middle eastern and jewish ancestry amongst the members who have joined up so far."
- I've perused that sight and as far as I can tell it's a commercial DNA testing service soliciting donations for field work. There's no mention of any of the claims about the various haplotypes. I'm removing it. If someone has a better link, it can always be restored.Armandtanzarian (talk) 16:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- I am tested positive for 'Cohen' and I am Nasrani. 5 to 6 out of about 40 tested for paternal DNA have so far tested positive for Cohen. The status of Cohen have been put upon us by mainstream JEws who are themselves of Cohenaim descent. For instance Mrs. Debbie Katz (Deborah Katz) is maintaining list of Nasrani Cohens. The Admin. of 'Syrian Christian DNA project Mr. Jacob Mankalathil is himself a Cohen. Apart from Cohen, Levite DNA is also comming up. So it is safe to conclude that as far as DNAs are concerned, the Malabar Nasrani is of Jewish/Hebrew/Israeli heritage. There has been jumps from Malabar Jews into the Nasrani fold in the past. The extend is still debatable. Read the books of Prof. Nathan Katz for more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting. This is still well away from a formal paper which could be used as WP:RELY here. Having a common father with each other might not prove anything, nor distant Jewish ancestry per se. The Jewish ancestry may have been derived in some other way. But very interesting. Doesn't seem usable here just yet. Student7 (talk) 20:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Kerala Christians are a mixture of Syriac/Persian/Palestine and Portuguese
Most of the Syrian Christians arrived at Kerala following the Muslim persecution in the 9th century AD as refugees and joined the minuscale preexisting syrian population.The DravidianChera and Ay kings gave them refuge.But the Syrian Christians were not thankful to the Dravidians in the later periods.The Tarisapalli Sashanam (865 ad)is signed in three language Hebrew Kufric and Pahlavi indicating that they were emmigrants from Syria with diverse origins including Palestine and Persian.Most of them came to India as refugees and Pepper Merchants. The Portuguese when arrived with few battered ships at Cochin, immediately became a power because of the cooperation provided by the Syrian Christians. The Syrian Christians who were absolute minority at that time (10000 to 20000 persons)who were talking foreign tongues that time suddenly exploded in population indicating their mixture with the Portuguese.The Portuguese organised armies with the help of Syrian Christians and converted Christians from the fishermen communities of Kerala. Numerous Padayattil(War houses) or Padaveetils are found among the Syrian Christians who organised armies for Portuguese. From 1498(arrival of Vasco Da Gama to 1653 ad (the Oath at Koonan Kurisu (Crooked cross),for about 150 yrs the Syrian Christians were the main interpreters and Army organisers for the Portuguese. The Portuguese allegedly married upto 20 to 30 native girls who borne them children who were raised in Catholic faith.The Portuguese Mestizos never formed a separate caste or class in Kerala indicating they mixed with the Syrian Christians freely.The Syrian/Portuguese people abandoned their ancient,(428 ad) Nestorian faith and adopted the Roman Catholic faith which was more acceptable to Portuguese.Similarly around 1550 the Syrians who did not convert to Roman Catholic faith changed over to the Jacobite sect of Western Orthodox sect which was none other than a branch of Greek Orthodox sect which used a Syriac language(thus more acceptable to Portuguese than the Eastern Orthodox sect of Babylon).The sudden change of faith to Roman Catholism and Jacobite sect strongly indicate that the Syrian Christians have Portuguese blood themselves. Now most of them pretend they dont know how they became Roman Catholics.At present none of the Syrian Christians are really Nestorians though some minority Knananyas etc though Roman Catholic claim to have retained some Eastern rights. By 1520s hardly 20 yrs after their arrival Portuguese a foreign people who were hardly few hundred in number, were protecting the Cochin King against the Samuthiris because of the Portuguese ability to organise armies in Kerala with the help of Syrian Christians which even included some Hindu castes including Ezhavas and Fishermen.Cochin king that time had atleast 25000 soldiers on his own.But with the Portuguese help the Cochin kings even had coronation at a Church(1520)as a vassal of Portuguese king and learned Portuguese. Syrian Christians used to live mostly in Kottayam,Quilon and Kodungaloor before the arrival of Portuguese.After 1500s of the Syrian Christians started living at Mattancherry where the Portuguese had their capital.Angamaly became the second capital for the Portuguese during the same time.They were the main brokers for the Portuguese.Even now Tharakan(broker) is a respectable surname among the Syrian Christians.The Koonan Kurissu Prathikgna (The Oath of Crooked Cross)at 1653, in which the Syrians wanted to keep Syriac as Church language was taken at the Portuguese Capital ie Mattancherry. It does not sound like any revolution against Portuguese eventhough then the Portuguese power was waning and Dutch were on the scene.Syrians did keep Syriac as Church language until end of 19th century indicating they were talking in Syriac at home also.The Portuguese converted and increased the Syrian Christian population gave them their Roman Catholic faith and even Malayalam as mother tongue. Now some of the Syrian Christians pretend that they are Jews and Namboothiris harassed by the Portuguese.(Jews and Namboothiris did not eat Pork but Portuguese did).Namboothiris did not exist until the 8th century in Kerala. Syrians though they talk a semitic language are ethnically not Jews at all. They descend from Hittite and Mesopotomian stock than Jews(But were influenced by Hebrew language). Wherever Portuguese went St.Thomas went with them.Apart from Holy sites in the Portuguese territory in Cochin,other holy sites in Tamil nadu sprouted near their godowns at Mylapore in Madras and at Velankanni where they plundered the Hindu temple Ranganatha Kshetram.At Thevalakkara at Quilon district where the Portuguese plundered a Hindu temple another Historic church was built.Most of the Syrian Christian Churches evennow follow the Portuguese Architecture with Cuppolas,Towers etc.The Portuguese processions have umbrella though they still carry the Idols as the Catholic Portuguese carried.(Nestorians did not carry idols).Ramban Pattu and many other Syrian Christian literature were written in the same period. Some Syrian Christians do look look like arabs or Persians but most of them look like Latinos indicating their mixed Portuguese ancestry. Most of them are taller and fairer,robust looking with pale or greenish eyes unlike most of the Natives- Dravidians.Many of Syrian Christians resemble Brazilians than Indians.They group themselves with the Portuguese descendents of Goa and Mangalore than the native converts.They eat Pork and Beef which most of the Hindu Indians dont eat.(Many of the Hindu converted Christians still dont eat Pork and Beef in India).They pour alcohol to ferment and soften their Appams (rice cake)that is not acceptable to most of the Indians. In the post independent period after 1950s the Syrian Christians are supported by foreign powers Europeans and Americans because of their Portuguese connections.
What's the cite?
"The British researcher, William Dalrymple travelled across the Arabian Sea to Kerala in a boat similar to those mentioned in ancient Jewish and Roman texts and showed how the Nasrani-Jewish people had travelled to Kodungalloor. He followed the same course as mentioned in the Acts of Thomas, a copy of which survives in a monastery on Mount Sinai. Between the late 1990s and early 2000s, ancient Aramaic text of the Gospel of the Nazarenes and other related texts were found in South India. Many of the texts match word to word the text of the Dead Sea scrolls." What is the source for these claims? --Peter Kirby 13:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
- BBC Documentary on Nasrani people - The William Dalrymple research on Nasrani people was documented and shown on the BBC. It was shown as a BBC documentary in 2002 and is part of a trilogy of short works called Indian journeys. The section dealing with the nasranis is called as Doubting Thomas. Robin klein 17:10, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
- The references to the Dead Sea Scrolls has now been deleted. (1) None of the Dead Sea Scrolls contain Christian material or references to Jesus. (2) No two ancient texts match each other word-for-word, period. Isaiah in the DSS does not match Isaiah in the Masoretic text, nor do any two copies of any other books match exactly rior to the Rabbinical standardization at Jamnia in the late 1st century CE. (3) It is meaningless to refer to the Dead Sea Scrolls. The DSS are a collection of books. This is like saying that many of my books match the Oxford Library word-for-word. Lawrence King 06:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Someone keep an eye on the activities of the brethren please. Seems like they are enjoying another practical joke.Budo 04:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
Patrilineal genealogy cladograms
It is common knowledge that Jewish priesthood is determined by strict patrilineal descent and that the custom originated over 3000 (?) years ago. Further, recent (comparative) genetic studies within the Jewish community have shown a low genetic diversity in the Cohanim (priests) establishing the existence of a distinct paternal genealogy for Jewish priests.
Assuming that the Nasrani were, as is stated "living fossils" until the arrival of the Portugese, it would seem reasonable to assume that they would continue the tradition of a patrilineal lineage of priests.
Therefore, have there been any effort to construct patrilineal genealogy cladograms within the Nasrani and Knanaya people? mtDNA analysis may also help determine the extent of genetic admixture of the original Jewish population with the indigenous population to help validate the (alleged) endogamous customs of the Knanaya.
188.8.131.52 20:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I am a Syrian Christian (Nasrani) and can personally vouch for the fact that the tradition of priesthood passing from generation to generation was followed among this community. My own family, according to our tradition, had more than twenty generations of priests, with the priesthood passed on from father to son.This is by no means a unique case and as is my understanding, was the norm among Syrian Christians.There have been many famous priestly families among the Nasranis.Of course, among the catholic groupings, this practice was stopped, after the Portugese arrived, but continued among the Eastern Rite churches. Cyril Mathew 184.108.40.206 ````
I am too a Nasrani and I am tested positive for Cohen DNA. I am one out of 5 to 6 other Nasrani Cohens out of about 40 who did the test. Mrs. Debbie Katz is the coordinator for this. She is a mainstream Jew and her male family members are Cohen. She was the person who really thrust the Cohen status upon us and calling us 'cousins'. The Admin of Syrian Christian DNA project is also Cohen. There are Levite DNAs also amongst us. My name is George Mathew and my contact email is email@example.com. You are most welcome to contact me and I can provide lots of information. I have been studying and pursuing this subject for several years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
"Nasrani" is a redirect to "Saint Thomas Christians" instead of "Syrian Malabar Christians"
Shouldn't "Nasrani" redirect to this page instead of "Saint Thomas Christians"?(Veliath 14:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC))
Hebrew manuscript found in India and other evidences
Here is a lengthy article written by Prof T. V. Philip on the finding of hebrew bible in India
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/issues/hebrew_new_testament_book_found_.htm (hebrew new testament found in India)
Prof Philip has taught in India, Europe, USA and Australia. He is a church historian, and a former Professor at the United Theological College, Bangalore, India.
The suppression of the Syrian malabar Nasranis by various people has been there for several centuries and goes on. The best device was / is to delete all evidence and deny the legitimacy of the nasranis.
for further evidence on the trade link between the Judeo-Roman world and Kerala in South India check this link from India's permier newspaper The Hindu. It was published at the time when the hebrew manuscripts were found.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/coins.html (Date of Roman coins found near Srivilliputhur assessed)
also check out: http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2003/08/17/stories/2003081700370800.htm (following the roman trail)
The Syrian Malabar Nasranis did have copies of the Gospel of Thomas and the Acts of Thomas, amongst other manuscripts of the Essenes. Infact the Syrian Malabar Nasranis were also referred to as 'Issanis' in the epic poem of Manimekalai in Tamil by Mani around 3rd century AD, based on the hebrew term 'Issene' or Essene. the manuscripts of acts of thomas and the gospel of thomas and other writings were / are not accepted by the Roman catholic church and therefore the portuguese burned the manuscripts of the nasrani people. Robin klein 07:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'm unclear about what you are claiming here. Are you stating that there is a connection between the Gospel / Acts of Thomas and the Essenes? What Essene manuscripts do you believe that the Syraian Malabar Nasranis had? Lawrence King 04:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The fact that Archbishop Menezes stated that the purpose of burning nasrani documents was to erase all legacy of antiquity is provided by the respected theologian Claudius Buchanan (Christian Researches in Asia - by Claudius Buchanan p 60).
- Claudius Buchanan (1811). Christian Researches in Asia: With Notices of the Translation of the Scriptures into the Oriental Languages. 2nd ed. Boston: Armstron, Cornhill
Robin klein 14:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I hope you are aware of the fact that the nazarene sect was a sect within the essenes. It is widely known and accepted (please go through the references that have been provided including christian researches by clausius Buchanan) that the essenes used to make exact copies of all the manuscripts they had in order to send it to the syrian malabar nasranis in kerala. The Gospel of thomas was not given the acceptance given to synoptic gospels. Thus all copies of the gospel of thomas was destroyed by the roman catholic church until ofcourse a copy was discovered buried in sealed jars in 1945 at Nag Hammadi. Before this the only copies were in kerala with the syrian nasranis and therefore it was burned by the roman catholic portuguese.
But it seems menezes and his clans have finally succeeded in destroying the legitimacy of the nasranis. Because until these copies could be found all that is said about the nasranis is false and "dubious" and since it is burned it will never be found. The roman catholic church has indeed destroyed the legitimacy of the nasranis. No wonder the Nazis too began by burning books while Papal Nuncio to Germany the later pope Pius XII did nothing.
Besides inspite of having given the reference for the statement of menezes, you have not reverted the statement dealing with the reason for the burning of the nasrani texts. so who is editing POV. Robin klein 10:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The article on Syrian Malabar Nasrani gives all its emphasis on its Jewish elements to the exclusion of its hindu-brahminical background and elements which is cherished by a huge chunk of the Syrian Christians in Kerala. Please see to it that the article get a complete perspective.
User: Maabahuka April 13, 2006.
The cherished claims of brahminical descent have no basis or evidences whatsoever. However the fact of Jewish lineage is stated in the Acts of Thomas, the works of the british researcher William Dalrymple, the ancient syriac-jewish monuments which still exists in kottayam (a picture of which is given on the article), and the copper plates of priviledges given to the Jewish nasranis.
However no evidence whatsoever exists for claims of brahminical descent, they are just cherished claims. besides, few brahmins might have got converted, however that does not qualify a statement saying most of nasranis are them. In fact, given the evidences most of the nasranis are of levantine jewish descent going by their surnames eg: Kuriakose, Kurien, Koshy etc. (derived from the aramaic terms like Kyriakos etc). Besides, the Nasrani Qurbana was mostly in syriac-aramaic (still in jacobite syrian orthodox) and used to be in syriac in the syro-malabar church till 1970s. However it was never in sanskrit.
Historically, the claims for brahminical descent began after the portuguese persecution on the nasrani Judeo-christian people. Probably derived from a human desire to relate to more humane treatment. The brahmins are the elites of Indian society and claims to brahminical descent only betray a desire for better treatment, especially during times of persecution. Robin klein 17:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
My friend Mr. Klein, i understand and appreciate your zealous endeavors to promote pro-semitic ideas as is evident from your comment in Kerala Talk Page itself. But when you come down to brass tacks the hard fact is that your claim that the Syrian Christians who make up 20% of the Kerala population is Jewish in descent sounds wholly out of context. And all arguments that you are putting forth for your case too are inadequate. First of all Acts of Thomas is a gnostic document which means that it is an apocryphal and of "spurious or doubful origin. Secondly, the copper plates and privileges were given to Jews and Nazranis separately and not like you said to "Jewish Nazranis".
As to your claim that there is no evidence to brahmins getting converted to christianity in large numbers, let me bring to your notice that there were no obstacles to the increase of population of the christian brahmin converts as was obviously there in the case of the Malayali brahmins(Namboodiri) for whom only the eldest son was allowed to marry a Namboodri woman.
- this is no evidence for brahmin descent in the nasranis Robin klein 12:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
For your referring to the names as a proof of the Jewish origins of the Syrian Christians, let me bring to your attention it is a very flimsy argument because unlike other Christians the Syrian Christians kept biblical names as their official name and a Hindu name (local) as pet name suffixed with Achen for gents and Achi or Amma for ladies in most cases as is common with the Namboodiris.
- Most of the rituals practiced by Syrian christians are more similar to candalas(parayas). Rituals like beef eating, even in jewish sytems of marriage in cochin, beef was served only to the servants also it was a habit again among the candalas before first century. When the head of the Paraya (Candala) community is dead, as per the customary jati law they bury the corpus of the deceased head (moopan) in sitting posture instead of the usual practice of keeping the dead body in lying position. The Kananaya and Saint Thomas Syrian Jacobite/Orthodox factions of Kerala Christians are the only communities other than the Parayas (Candalas) to bury the corpse of their bishops (spiritual head) in the manner of the Paraya moopans of old. No other Christian factions neither upheld nor practiced such a burial system. This burial pattern suggests a very strong socio-cultural or anthropological relation between both communities, which lost their link elsewhere in the deluge of history. Most of the marriage rituals are also similar to candalas
Overall the life style, customs, church administration, marriage ceremonies, etc were identical with the practices in Nambudiri families. This is common for most of the Syrian Christian denominations except possibly for the Knanaya christians who had historically migrated to Malabar coast in A.D. 235 along with Knai Thomman.
- Thomman(Merchant) came to Malabar in 345A.D and not 235, I can give you an interesting argument for the namboodiri conversion. From my personal experience I strongly feel Syrian Christians are facing some inferiority complex, which always compels them to announce this ancestry as often they could. Most often I felt this as a weather forecast over the radio. Coming to the point the 1901 Census Report says that there were 19,279 Namboothiris in British Malabar, 5,290 in Cochin State and 5,326 in Travancore State. It shows that the net Kerala Namboothiri population was 29,895, a mere 0.47% of the population of Kerala. (Namboothirimaar, edited by Paarayil Raman Namboodiri and published in 1917 by Mangalodayam Company, Thrissur). We again assume that Namboothiri population rose at 2-3%(2% was the world growth in 1961, just used as a guideline) level per anum and if we try to compound it reversely we cannot take it anything before 8th century at an acceptable level of 1555 people. In case St. thomas converted vedic Brahmins, where are they now? or did they merge with Namboothiris:: the nasrani qurbana has always been in syriac till the 1970s it has never been in sanskrit. which should have been the case if they were indeed brahmins.
It is you User: Maabahuka who is zealous to proclaim brahminical descent for the nasranis probably to prove a higher place in Indian caste system. but you have not presented any evidences.
So the article dealing with Syrian Christians needs to be rewritten entirely because it is contrary to rhym and reason that is cherished and handed down as history by the Syrian Christian population of Kerala.
User: Maabahuka April 14, 2006
No, despite the claims, there are no evidence like the copper plates for brahmins in the syrian nasrani tradition.Robin klein 12:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I have modified the sentence "Malabar is the ancient name of the present day state of Kerala in India." .Bharatveer 04:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Corrected the typo and added the citation needed tag for "namboothiri history".Bharatveer 08:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- Did user Maabahuka really argue brahminical descent of all Nasaranis or is it that Robin Klein likes to debate as if he did? Maabahuka appears to argue that there may be a little more Brahmin content in the Nasarani gene pool than Mr Klein says there is and whole lot less Jewish content than as Mr Klein argues.
- Obviously, Mr Klein has done quite a lot of research and he is an expert on the subject. But the problem with ouside experts is that they lack a certain familiarity with certain aspects of the subject matter that some people who grew up in that society may have.
- Mr Klein's statement, "the nazarani qurbana has always been in syriac till the 1970s, it has never been in Sanskrit, which should have been the case if they were indeed brahmins", is utterly absurd logic, (regardless of whether they were indeed brahmins or not.) What rule would have dectated that if they were Brahmins the qurbana should have been in Sanskrit?
- Another absurd aspect of Mr Klein's way of reasoning is what appears to be his demand for copper plates as historical evidence for everyting that occurred or not occurred in Kerala. Is Kerala history based only on copper plates?
Hello, My friend, I am putting up this text by another writer (Veliath) on this subject, written on kerala talk page, which might clarify your queries. I am posting his text here. Robin klein 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know if this proves anything about Brahmanical origins ( which are actually claimed by my family ), but my family name is "Sankara-Mangalam" == "House of Shiva". Its a bit of a puzzle when you think about how a completely Judeo-Christian origin could beget such a family name.
Thanks. Cherry Mathew shankaramangalam family members continue to live in kaviyur & thiruvalla.They are an old nair family.perhaps your forefathers bought a defunct 'tharavad' of the family & adopted the name as well.Other christian families have done this routinely,for instance Alappat.
- It is a common tradition for people to adopt surnames or terms of those with whom people interact and conduct trade. Iranian jews (eg zadeh, etc) have persian surnames while German jews have Germanic surnames (eg Rosenberg, Kahn etc). In fact several Indian Muslims and Indian Zoroastrians (parsis) both share common names and surnames (like, Shah, Jehangir, Jahan etc). While among the Jain community in India many people who were involved with trade with the arabs have adopted the surname of SHAH. Several gujarati jains have Persian surnames like Shah, Mehta (also shared by Zoroastrian and Persian Iranis and Muslims). Names are representational terms and are often influenced by cultural milieu and context of trade and business. Robin klein 23:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
On the Syrian Christians (Nasrani Mappilas) and their origins --Veliath (Posted to Kerala's Talk page)
Hello all. I would like to weigh in with my take on the origin of the Syrian Christians aka Nasrani Mappilas. Some of it is theoretical, some of it is based on folklore, some on known trends in Kerala&India. Some of the theory is mine, some of it is others. I will try to separate out each of these as I present my take on the history of the Syrian Christians(SyrChrs).
Perhaps the most important point to keep in mind is that it is well known and documented that the Syrian Christians are not homogeneous - not culturally, not genetically nor in terms of social status.
- Culturally the SyrChrs have practises that differ across localities as well as across families. Some SyrChrs families are considered "high" born while others are not considered so.
- It is well known that SyrChrs practised polygyny (and in some cases polyandry) where the subsequent wives would be from socially lower (usually Hindu)communities. Further, many families and whole communities claim descent from Jewish settlers. Others claim Brahmin descent.
- The differences in claimed descent meant that SyrChr communities were accorded different social statuses in different regions. In many areas they were perpetually in conflict with Nairs for patronage and the granting of privileges from the local kings or chieftains.
I hope to address these issues in my version of the SyrChr Origin_story:-)
West Asian Identity
A key element that separates out the Mappila communities from the others in India and Kerala is the obvious West Asian influence. It is generally believed that this points to a West Asian origin for the communities. It is documented that around the beginning of the Christian era Muziris on Kerala's coast was the largest trading port on India's Western coast known for its West Asian settlements.
- Trade in Early India, Oxford University Press says the following on page 66: "Thanks to a graphic description left behind by Pliny, historians are able to trace the development of the sea-route to the west coast of India in four-stages. The most developed route, which was also the shortest and safest,began from the Red Sea port of Myos Hormos and /or Berenice and reached the famous Malabar port of Muziris (Muciri of the Tamil Sangam texts) in forty days by following the Hippalus (i.e. the south-western monsoon) wind. Pliny states that the earliest point of maritime contacts between India and the West was Patalene in the Indus delta; the subsequent point was the port of Barbaricum on the middle mouth of the Indus. The third stage made Sigerius or Jaigarh on the Konkan coast the convenient harbour and finally, Muziris became the most important port of call." Essentially by the time Pliny wrote things down Muziris was well established as a major port of call for Roman shipping. Note that the term Roman refers in general to the peoples ruled by the Romans - which included portions of Arabia and regions around the Mediterranean - i.e. present day Palestine/Israel, Armenia and Africa.
- The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown adds the following on page 60:"At first(from about 90 B.C.) ships went from Aden and other Arabian ports direct to Bombay and finally discovered how to sail direct, diagonally across to Muziris, the port of Malabar, instead of tacking laboriously down the coast. Malabar was in any case the end of the voyage. for it was from there that pepper, spices and precious stones were exported." He goes on to say on page 61 "We know something about the extent of this trade from references in Latin writers and from coins discovered in south India. Arikamedu was an established Roman trading station and the Peutinger Tables show a temple of Augustus near Muziris, and it is said that two Roman cohorts were stationed there to guard the warehouses. Pliny speaks with some dismay of a trade which cost the empire about one and a half million sesterces a year, chiefly for luxuries like pepper, ginger and precious stones, with no reciprocal export trade to compensate". On page 62 he says "Some Tamil classics(Silapadhigaaram, Manimekalai) also speak of this trade. One poem speaks of Muziris, where `agitating the white foam of the Periyar river, the beautifully built ships of the Yavanas(Westerners) came with gold and returned with pepper, and Muziris resounded with the noise'; and in another poem we read of the Pandya king drinking `the cool and fragrant wine brought by the Yavanas in their good ships'. We also read that some Indian rajas employed bodyguards of Western soldiers --`the valiant-eyed Yavanas whose bodies were strong and of terrible aspect'; who were `excellent guardians of the gates of the fort walls'."
Now nothing is mentioned of the ethnic makeup of these West Asians, but to me it seems to be primarily Semitic (Arabs and Jews), Persian, Aremenian, Abyssinan, Egyptian and of course the Graeco-Roman elites themselves. It should also be noted that Muziris was famous before a direct sea-route to it was found.
These settlers would have been entire families/communities or simply male traders who setup factories on Kerala's shores. Many would have taken Indian wives. Over generations they would have formed a distinct community. It has been suggested that this could be the reason for the term Mappila(groom) being used to refer to them - a community formed by foreign grooms setting up families on Kerala's shores.
As has been documented by Robin Klein, many Jewish refugee communities found their way down to Kerala, typically travelling down the trading routes and settling in the relatively cosmopolitan trading locations on the Malabar Coast. J.N.Farquhar in "The Apostle Thomas in North India" (available in The Nazranies, edited by Prof. George Menachery) theorizes that the Jews were dispersed all the way from Syria to Parthia, many were engaged in trade and that for the Apostle Thomas "his kinsmen the Jews would be the chief objective". Essentially, he believes that any visit by the Apostle to Malabar would have been to proselytize amongst the thriving Jewish community "dispersed" as he puts it from Syria to Parthia with their communities extending all the way down to the Malabar coast. The Apostle's visit though very plausible will remain categorized as folklore.
As Christianity began to catch on in West Asia (both Arabia and Persia) and later the Roman Empire, the religious make up of the Yavanas to Kerala's shores began to become more Christian. Their persecution in the early centures probably only added to their increased settlement on Kerala's shores. These Christian communities would eventually be called Nasrani Mappilas.
Another major development in West Asian Christianity mirrored in Kerala is the (East)Roman vs Parthian empire hostility that resulted in the East and West Syrian Churchs. Today this is represented by the Syro-Malankara and Jacobite&Orthodox denominations following a West Syriac liturgy (centered around present day Syria & Lebanon) while the Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and Church of the East following an East Syriac derived liturgy (centered around present day Iraq & Iran). It is very likely that both Churches had communities in Kerala in obedience to them within years of the split.
With the advent of Islam the demographic of the Mappilas would have started changing again. There might have been a brief increase in settlements from those escaping persecution, following which the number of Muslims amongst the West Asians would have increased - especially amongst the Arabs.
As documented by Leslie Brown(page 81) the Muslim settlers would eventually push the Christian ones into the hinterland. Contact with West Asians would now be primarily Muslim, but Christian and Jewish traders would continue to visit Kerala's shores.
With the decrease in overseas Christian contacts, the Nasrani Mappila communities would have become more Indianized.
The Mappilas were patronized for the money they brought in to the coffers of the various kings and chieftains under whose suzerainty they traded. As their numbers increased they would have provided soldiers and weapons to their chieftains which in turn would have been rewarded with grants of land and social privileges. Some communites like the Knanaya community were granted land on immigration. This coupled with the loss of control of the trading ports to the Muslims would have resulted in the Nasranis becoming a landed community growing the spices and timber they historically traded.
Leslie Brown notes(pages 169-171) that in a lot of areas SyrChrs and Nairs were considered equals and were constantly in competition for royal patronage and privilege. The SyrChrs took wives and very likely accepted grooms after the Marumakkathayam fashion from amongst the Nairs.
- Excerpts from The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown page 169:"They were given charge of the collection of revenue for the rajas in certain places and in the fourteenth century Marignolli found that they were in charge of the public weighing office in the Quilon customs. Associated with concessions in the pepper and other trades was the grant of service from certain castes and the responsibility of protecting them." On page 171 he writes: "The Christians shared many other things besides names with the Nayars. They occasionally took wives from that community, and their children often went to school with Nayar children...Many families still have certain privileges in the temples which are believed to have been granted in recognition of some service given or some present made in former times. For example at the Arat festival in Parappatattu temple the oldest member of the Pulikkamarrattil family of Syrians (who bore the title of Panikkar or Menon)had the right to go before the image of the deity and received rice and other presents". On page 170 he says: "The other privileges granted by the rajas were of use in establishing the position of the Christians in society and as such were most jealously guarded. In the sixteenth century the raja of Paravur tried to give similar privileges to the Nayars of his State but the Christians rose in armed revolt and forced him to change his mind"
It is likely that in places where Nairs and Christians were on par socially, or the latter higher (as in Paravur above), it is my belief that the increasing social clout of the SyrChrs would have resulted in some of these families being able to participate in the practise of Marumakkathayam with scions of Namboothiri families. The children born to these marriages would claim Namboothiri descent on the male side (the SyrChrs were patrilineal) and the families of today that claim Brahmin blood very likely are descended from these unions. The tale of Namboothiri conversions by the Apostle Thomas could be an attempt at hoariness by these families in my opinion.
Various sources including Leslie Brown and such documents as the Synod of Diamper mention the practise of cohabition with Indian slave women - i.e. women from the oppressed labour communities of Kerala. This would have resulted in the children from these marriages becoming part of the SyrChr communities.
- The Synod of Diamper has a "Decree XI" in it's "Action IX. Of the Reformation of Manners." section that reads: "Whereas there are great numbers of Christians who for want of having the Fear of God and the Church before their Eyes, do cohabit publickly with Concubines, to the great scandal of Christianity; the Vicars shall therefore with great Charity admonish all such Offenders, three times declaring to them, That if they do not reform, they must declare them Excommunicate, and if after so many Admonitions they do not turn away their Concubines, they must be Excommunicated until they are effectually parted, and be punished with other Penalties at the pleasure of the Prelate, according to the time that they have lived in that Sin, and when it shall so happen that their Concubines are their Slaves, they shall constrain them not only to turn them out of their Houses, but to send them out of the Country where they live, that there may be no more danger of their relapsing, which shall be likewise observed as to all other Women where there is the same danger."
The SyrChr communities continued to be churned as the fortunes of the kings & chieftains they owed allegiance to changed over time. The strange bubble like nature of the caste system prevalent in Kerala allowed the SyrChr communities to retain their West Asian customs and practises to a significant degree.
--Veliath 12:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Do let me know what you'll have to say. I have tried to quote citations - I feel that would be more convincing and allow us to reach agreement faster. I'm sorry for not responding sooner to this discussion. I don't have time except on weekends for major edits/submissions. --Veliath
Whether the person studying a topic comes from within the community or outside is not an issue. However, a problem that might arise with people from within a society is that they may want to pass off general notions as the fact. Robin klein 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. please sign your name when you write on a talk page Robin klein 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a term I've heard used among Syrian Christians who are now Roman Catholic. I have not heard this term used either in The Marthoma, or the Syrian Orthodox denominations.
Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that I've heard this in the context of "Adult Baptism" in pentecostal denominations.
- The term used for baptism by syriac churches both catholic and orthodox is Mamodisa. Njana Snanam is a general term in Malayalam language that is used as a descriptive term for the Aramaic-syriac term mamodisa. Terms like names are representational terms and are often influenced by cultural milieu and context of trade and business. Robin klein 23:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Gnana Snanam is a sanskrit word but with Tamil roots meaning Holy bath probably a term coined during the Portuguese period. Gnanasnanam is the common Tamil word for Baptism. Portuguese favoured Tamil when they printed the first Bible from Cochin in Tamil and also the Chavittu Natakam supposed a Christian Dance Drama founded by a Chinna thampi Annavi a Tamil poet at Cochin.Gnanasnanam is now the word for Baptistm in all over South India. Kerindigen (talk) 15:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Nasrani dietary tradition and Jewish Kashrut
The Syrian tradition of dietary customs celebrate Even-toed ungulate animals of the jewish kashrut. While the Brahmin tradition of dietary customs stress on the practice of vegetarianism and the abstinence of non vegetarianism as an important feature of Brahmanism.
For festive occasions the Nasranis relish traditional bread (appam) with meat, especially cow (Beef) (which is never meant to be eaten by Brahmin traditions). The practice of eating pork is not widespread and is only seen in less proportion after the Portuguese persecution and destruction of the Syrian Christians. In fact the chief Nasrani dishes include Beef and mutton (goat) together with (appam) as part of traditional celebrations of Easter and wedding celebrations similar to Jewish traditions of Kashrut or Kosher. In anthropology, dietary customs are considered as hallmarks of traditions and continuity.
It is a common tradition for people to adopt surnames or terms of those with whom people interact and conduct trade. Iranian jews (eg zadeh, etc) have persian surnames while German jews have Germanic surnames (eg Rosenberg, Kahn etc). In fact several Indian Muslims and Indian Zoroastrians (parsis) both share common names and surnames (like, Shah, Jehangir, Jahan etc). While among the Gujarathi Jain community in India many people who were involved with trade with the arabs have adopted the surname of SHAH. Several gujarati jains have Persian surnames like Shah, Mehta (also shared by Zoroastrian and Persian Iranis and Muslims). The term used for baptism by syriac churches both catholic and orthodox is Mamodisa. Njana Snanam is a general term in Malayalam language that is used as a descriptive term for the Aramaic-syriac term mamodisa. Names are representational terms and are often influenced by cultural milieu and context of trade and business.
However unlike names, dietary customs are passed from familial traditions and are therefore much resilient to external influence. People of Brahmin descent, pass on their Brahmin dietary laws of abstinence from fish, goat, beef or anything that is non-vegetarian, especially since vegetarianism is one of the defining features of brahmanical tradition. However traditional Syrian Christians diet include most of all fish, goat and beef (all of which are considered as clean animals in the Jewish laws of Kosher or dietary laws). Similarly Jains even though they have surnames like Shah and Mehta abstain from consuming meat and other products that are restricted by their dietary laws. Syrian christians relish Beef and mutton and fish, they do not abstain from non vegetarian food which as it happens is the defining feature of Brahmanism. Robin klein 23:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Nasranis eat Beef, Buffoalow as well as Pork routinely though they prefer Pothu( Buffalo)to anything else. Even in Marriage parties the Pork Chips or Pork fry is served especially Thrisssur and Cochin.In some areas in the Cochin backwaters Pythons are in Syrian Christian menu.
near 2000 years diaspora
so we Suriyani(Syrian) Christians lost our major clues of origins due to protugese entering here.also please read that society at this part of the world was not at par with their western counterparts.we people geneologically looks alike of Namboodiris or Nairs or any higher caste in Kerala.but Knanaaya Christians do have few problems coming up from ancestories like some diseases due to impure blood(i dont know the disease name in english :() etc as they are closely knit.infact they earlier stich an ash carrying bag(small one) to their body(chaaram kettikal or ash carriers!). Also there are traditional song which praises St.Thomas and caliming who baptised as also the song is not in Malayalam,but an old dialect of Tamil.Also,there are claims that many Suriyani churches of kerala are having their base as Hindu Temples as the case in north india where mosques are made above hindu temples.Most of the families(mostly catholics) of Ernakulam/Kottayam districts and regions are having their family hsitory written as basically they are Brahmins(may be an imagination they have!) and they came from Kodungalloor aka Muziris.Praka123 22:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
All foreign mixed people of Kerala look fairer than Dravidians, the original inhabitants whose brown colour gives India the colour. Keralas original people used to be Tamils and Dravidians who were brown people who still survive as a majority among Hindus.Kerala has immigrants from Srilanka(Eazham),Arabia, Persian-Syrian-Portuguese people(Syrian Christians),Turkish,Aryans and Nagas who are ethnically not Dravidians and look fairer. Nairs are Nagas who migrated from Ahichatra in Uttarpradesh during the reign of Kadamba king Mayuravarma along with Namboothiris the Aryans.North Indian Nagas and Aryans look bigger fairer than Dravidians. Syrian Christians are not ethnically realted to Aryans or Nagas. Claiming that all the foreigners are high castes as they look fairer is setting a bad precedent.
Articles are not to be merged
The article Syrian Malabar Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. The article Knanaya deals with a subgroup within that community. It is therefore essential to have separate pages for the topics of Syrian malabar nasrani and Knanaya, which are highly related. Besides it is wikipedia policy to create sub articles when there is lots of details within a subtopic. This has already been indicated with the main heading link given to the subpages. Robin klein 22:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid this article exhibits an obvious misunderstanding that has not yet been corrected No Christian body could reasonably assert, and no mainstream Christian body has ever thaught, either that the Romans alone killed Jesus or the the Jews alone killed Jesus.
What the Gospels depict is perfectly straightforward: Jesus was executed by the Roman soldiers in Palestine under Pontius Pilate at the instigation of the leaders of the Jewish community.
It never ceases to amaze me that some people fail to grasp both sides of this equation, or exaggerate the significance of one or another of them, and speak as if a given Christian Church taught only one or the other.
18.104.22.168 13:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)Michael Healy 12/31/06
How can Jews be Nasranis?
How can people practising Judaism be Nasranis? They're not of a Christian sect. "Nasrani" refers to the "followers of Jesus of Nazarene". To me, to include Jews is inaccurate to this article since that it sounds strange given that Jews are not followers of Christ (meaning to include worshipping Jesus as Son of God).
Mappila , Methans and Poola Chetan
Mapila Mapillai or Moplah is not a title of Syrian Christians but indicates foreign ancestrty The foreign immigrants who came to India in search of pepper were forced to stay in India for about six months till the trade wind direction changed.During that time the Arabs, Syrians, Jews, Romans and Greeks and Nasranis invariably married Dravidian girls. Mapila means son in law in ancient Tamil as well as Malayalam. The foreign son in laws often never returned but their offsprings were called Mapilas too. Uppukuttan Mappillai was an Arabi Mappillai of pre islamic period. Similarly Arabi Mapillai(Arabs), Yehuda Mapillai(Jews), Jonaka Mapillai (Greeks and Romans)were some of the other Mapillais. Methans or Methanmar is another term to indicate the people of foreign origin from the west.Mel thisai was west in Tamil. Meltharakaranmar or people from the land in the west (Middle east including Syria and Persia and Europe). (Keezhthara means land in the East-China) Poola Chetan was mispronunciation of Portuguese. Portuguese who brought Tapiocca to India were called Poolachetans (long brother in Malayalam) or Parangis(pale ones) and the Kappa (tapiocca)was called Poolakappa. Nelkinda (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
About the title Mappila and Nasrani, Nazrani, Nazraney,Mar Sapir Iso
Mappila is a title awarded by Mampally Sasanam to Syrian Christians.It doesnot mean groom or immigrants. In Kollavarsham 149 ( Malayalam Calander )(AD1051) the Chera king Vallabhan kotha had given a Chepped to the Chengannoor Church conferring the title Mappila to all the Syrian Chrstians. The Syrian churches existing at that time were known as Mother Churches. After this Chepped was given, members of those churches were given the title ‘Mappila’ or children of Mother Churches and they suffixed Mappila with their names as a title of honour.
Syrian Christians who came for shelter under Travencore State ruled by Karthikathirunal during the Tipu Invasion in Central Kerala districts of Kottayam still uses the title.
Mapilla means a foreigner who married among the local Dravidian girl. Any pure Dravidian from Kerala will support the same view. Because of the trade winds the Syrians of the Persian gulf were forced to stay in India because the tradewind which favoured the return journey to the parent country will start only after six months. Meanwhile during their stay in India they married local girls from the seashore and left their offsprings in the seashore of Kerala. Sometimes they returned but most of the times they did not.Mapilla was a name coined with humour because the foreign son in laws often disappeared. i think it not only the west asian in kerala.they are in ethipia or east africa, i dont think they married it for a short period. i think we got offically a syrian christian community. many bishop often come to kerala. means these orthodox syric people also in kerala.and they married locally and the syric christian population spreaded out and that suppose to happpened. and that was also a way of evangalism. that they accepted converts and early syrian married locally and syrian chrisitans populated in kerala. if knanaya were orginal and claiming they are the exact decendent still they dont have any proof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rubinpp (talk • contribs) 04:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC) Mapilla title was given to foreign son inlaws of RomanGreek (Jonaka mappillai),Arabi Mapillai and Nasrani Mapillai(Greeks and Arabs did not have mother churches. Mapilla or Methan(Meltharakkaran=Person from Western lands including Syria) still indicates foreigner from Western countries.There is no honour attached.It means a person of Mixed foreign and local origin. But they were given all facilities to do busiess in India by the Tamil Chera and Ay Kings. The Mapillas were allowed to be members of the Trade guilds,to keep Indian servants,carry arms and umbrellas in their residences near ports. But they were never allowed to hold any government post neither in the Tamil era till 1100 ad or the later Namboothiri era.
I think in introduction refernace to Nazrani, Nazraney, Nazarenes should also be included. The first Malayalam news paper daily Deepika when started publishing in AD 1887 has the name Nazrani Deepika.In this article the word Nasrani is used i wonder how we can arrive on the correct spelling as Nazrani,Nazraney and nazarenes also widely used in the Syrian Christian history.
Again in the orgin about the Knanaya consists of only People tracing their orgin to Knai Thomman.That doesnot inculde 7th centuray syrian immigration.
The people tracing their orgin to 7th century syrian immigration under the leadership of Maruvan Sabariso, Maruvan Sapir Iso or Mar Sapir Iso are not part of the Knanaya Community, they are very much in the Syrian Christian community.Tharisappalli Cheppeds are awarded to Mar Sapir Iso and many churches which even exists today in central travancore are built by Mar Sapir Iso.Even many traditions and heritage like ornamental umbrellas, traditional drums and arch decorations which arepart of most church festivals in Kerala trace their orgin to Mar Sapir Iso.
I think this article requires correction to some extent.Tarijanel 03:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above comments. The date of the Syrian immigration under Mar Sabor Easo (Sapir Iso) is dated around 822 AD (i.e. 9th century). This group of migrants were Christians (probably Persian) and they mixed with the native Nasrani Christians. Their arrival is well documented.
There is no clearcut evidence to suggest when exactly the Knananya people arrived in India though it has been suggested that it is around 345 ad. But some other records suggest they came only after 800 ad. Had they come around 345 ad they could not have had Nestorian religeon with them as Nestorius started it only in 428 ad. Appearancewise Knananyas of Kerala seem to have mixed semitic (indrawn jugular prominence, Dolicocephaly,pale brown eyes )and European origins (with tall fair caucasian features with prominent noseand blue eyes -even darker among them are robustly built than Indians) while some exhibit strong tribal like faces with thick lips and dark colour with curly hair. Most of the Knananya are Roman Catholics indicating the Portuguese influence. Their churches are built in Portuguese style. Perhaps they are mixture of many foreign nationals including Jews, Persians ,Syrians and Portuguese.
Mar Sapir Easho
, Syrian pioneer, might have been of Pahlavi or Persian origin. The Tarisapalli Shasanam has been siged in three languages.
The Knanayas, according to their tradition, are Jewish-Christian immigrants under Thomas Cana during ~375 AD. They are supposed to have come from SE Turkey. Malabari 16:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)malabari
Syrian christians were not Jews but descend from Asura or Assyrians
All the Syrian Christians claim to be either Jews or Namboothiris but both could be false. The Knananyas among the Syrian Chrisitans came from Syria when it was under the Sassanian kingdom between 200 ad to 600 ad. They are Syrians belonging to the Arab stock descending from Asura of Assyrian people a primitive people of Proto Asian stock. The Persian Pahlavi could be an acquired language. The plates they present for proof often have Portuguese letters on it.The exact day of their arrival cant be ascertained though it is believed to be 345 ad. or later. Some say they came only after 800 ad. Nelkinda (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The Syrian Christians appear only after 800 ad in Kerala History
Except few edicts like Thazekad whose time is difficult to prove the Syrian Christians appear in Kerala History only after 825 ad after the Tharisappally sasanam of Quilon which appears to be genuine.It is possible that few of the the earlier Assyrian Christians lived in port cities of the ancient Tamil kingdoms in earlier times too but they cant be more than 100s.The so called Syrian Christian plates prior to 800 ad are said to be Portuguese forgeries as the Portuguese priests learned and Mastered ancient Tamil in the 1500s.Eg Joseph Constanzo Beschi who wrote the Tamil classic Thembavani.
Are A K Antony and K J Yesudas Nasranis?
Especially I doubt about the latter. Please clarify.--Peopledowhattheyoughttodo 05:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
A.K. Antony is Nasrani. He is a Syrian Catholic. Malabari 08:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Malabari
- Reply :
K J Yesudas was born in a Nazarani family but with more faith in Hinduism Tinucherian 02:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
K J Yesudas is a Latin Nasrani. 22.214.171.124 01:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
What are the Jewish traditions followed only by the Knanayas?
It's often repeated in several articles that the Knanayas have preserved more Jewish traditions than the rest of the Nasranis. I can't remember any. In fact, the Knanaya Jacobites don't even have the tradition of Pesaha Appam that is followed by most Nasranis including Catholics. Any replies? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Malabari (talk • contribs) 16:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
I would also like to know the answer, though I am sure there are differnces especially in marriage customs/celibrations in Knanaya Catholics compared to "vadakkans". They have, however, similar Pesaha. --Peopledowhattheyoughttodo 04:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
The marriage ceremony of the Kananaya Syrian Christians, contained numerous formal procedures and rituals that were alien to Christians all over. Some of such ritualistic observances in association with marriages that still exists amongst the Kananaya Syrian Christians of Keralam are the hair cutting custom, henna application ceremony, the ritual of ash tying, the customary practice of nadavili, the customary rite of thalakettu, etc. They are the real facsimile of the customary practices, through centuries, of the subaltern jaties such as Vathies, Velans, Vannanas, Vetas, and Parayas. Furthermore, since the very beginning of Kananaya Syrian Christian history intoxicating drinks has been an unavoidable item of the feast of their marriages. This traditional practice of serving intoxicating drinks by Kananaya Syrian Christians on the auspicious occasions is the replica of the above-mentioned subaltern jaties of Keralam in the bygone days.
I think, this will be very useful for readers. We have a very distinct social behaviour thanks to the sunday school and sunday church service, which many pagans are even unaware of. Also please emphasize our family set up, siblings/kin relations, moral values, hard working nature etc.
What do you say?--126.96.36.199 03:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Though drafted beautifully this article needs correction as it still doesnot list down many of the customs and culture of Nasrani's
Nasrani article with out mention of Mar Sapir Iso is not complete.
On persecution side it only talks about portuguese which is not complete.Tipu Sultan trail on Malabar worth mentiong as well as Dutch and British contributions on dividing and ruling the community.
--Kevin 04:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Removal of data from Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani
"Besides a lot of the Malabari locals who joined early Christianity returned to their earlier faith during a shaivite revival by the shaivite scholar Manikka Vachkar. "
The following data is Without any historical proof and also deframtory . Hence will be removed .
Tinucherian 02:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Changes on Content
User Tinucherian and another person made chnages in the content with out discussion.Please do keep in mind that this article contains contributions from many people. This is not a new article to come and make changes in one day.Before anyone makes any changes do have the courtsey to discuss and wait for atleast 30 days and if the response is favarable to your suggestions and then only proceed for changes.I request the editors not to encourage changes with out discussion.Editors should encourage new peoples contribution but that should not be for tampering the articles.
Unsolicted changes happened during the last few months
1- Removeal of Passover from traditions
Pass over is another surviving Jewish tradition still followed by the Nasranis is the tradition of Pesaha-appam or unleavened Passover bread”). On passover night, the Nasrani people have Pesaha-appam along with Pesaha-pal or “Passover coconut milk”. This tradition of Pesaha-appam is observed by the entire Nasrani people until this day. === Most of the Nasranis follow this tradition, the only exception is Knanya Jacobite and Protestants.If you look at the Nasrani population they dont even exceed 2 or 3 percent.
Please check this link -http://nasrani.net/2007/02/13/preserved-original-rituals-of-the-early-jewish-christians-in-syrian-christians-of-kerala/ [ Many of the traditions has been removed with out any discussion.
If you look at the reverse population projection the Kerala populationin the begining of century is around 200000. The poulation maninly consiting of Nasranis and Budhists.Vedic revival and Shivaite revival happend during the end of first century and many Nasranis as well a Budhists adorned to the faiths.The referance are already given in the article.Please read the books mentioned on referance and dont make chnages with out reading.
This article needs revision and rather than making irrevalant chnages discuss on the chnages required and some one who has time discuss it and then make chnages.
Maharshisy 02:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The purpose of this article is explained in the begining.Please dont add churches here.Traditional Nasrani churches are detailed in St Thomas Chrisitans article.
Maharshisy 02:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits on the term local people
Recent unwanted edits and dumping of texts by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:B_Nambiar
Most of the Kerala historians agree that Buddhism is the pre dominant religion in Kerala atleast till 7 or 8 th century along with Christianity. The concept of Avarna or Savarna is of late orgin and there are no evidances. Please get some evidences before making unwanted edits.It is advisable to develop atleast a basic understanding about Nasranis before contributing for what ever reason.
The term local people is used to denote the initial converts other than the Jews and daispora community which is the apt usage rather than bringing in classifications which are of late orgin.Maharshisy (talk) 08:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I intended to put in a more accurate description from common knowledge, but you are right about the time mismatches. I meant converts from communities who were classified as Avarna after Namboothiri arrival as Hindu upper castes did not convert into Christianity bar a few notables and this would be worth noting in an encyclopedic article.
"Recent unwanted edits"
Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
- "CBuchanan" :
- Claudius Buchanan 1811
- Claudius Buchanan, 1811
- Dr. Francis Buchanan (1762-1827) visited Kerala in 1800 and Rev. Dr. Claudius Buchanan (1766-1815) visited in 1806. It is Rev. Dr. Claudius Buchanan, who wrote Christian Researches in Asia: With Notices of the Translation of the Scriptures into the Oriental Languages. 1811 (see references in the article). But I don’t remember reading the statements mentioned in this article by the user. Only that user will be able to explain. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 23:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC).
Accusations of vandalism
Without further comment, an editor has been reverting material that he disagrees with, calling it "vandalism." I would ask the editor to WP:AGF and to avoid language that might be perceived as WP:ATTACK. The link on the ten lost tribes is correct and there appears to be no legitimate reason why it should be reverted without comment as "vandalism." Please stop doing that. Student7 (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
A doubting Thomas?
An editor has placed material doubting the historicity of the Indian church in a footnote, which is, for some reason, not showing up there. Not sure why. At any rate, the material should either be brought forward into the main article under some "criticism" subsection or omitted entirely. It obviously needs WP:RELY footnotes. One question - where did the original Christians come from prior to the arrival of the Portuguese. Never mind the quantity. If the criticism cannot account for those original Christians, it is useless. Having a physical church in 824 is not meaningful either. Ancient Christian churches were originally in people's homes. So what no physical church until 824? BTW, that info should be part of history regardless of the way this criticism subsection turns out. Student7 (talk) 14:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I would like to propose a merger, or at least a dichotomy of sorts, between this material/article and History of the Saint Thomas Christians. Not really sure of the difference between the two articles thought "History" might not be concerned with cultural aspects.Student7 (talk) 11:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
separate article on ST. thomas christian history already exists
editors are please requested to check wikipedia pages before they create new pages, in order to avoid duplication. A separate article dealing with history of the saint thomas christian history already exists. It is called History of the Saint Thomas Christian tradition. It has been in existence for a long time and with references. It has been edited by several hundreds of people over a long time.
A new article without references has been created on the same topic called History of the Saint Thomas Christians by largely a single author user:student7 only two weeks ago on 2nd of may 2009. Much of the new article is without references and most of all the topic is a duplication of a page that already exists. It has to be redirected to the already existing article that is being constantly edited by several hunderds of people over a long time. Vagab (talk) 10:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- I am familiar with the history of the article St. Thomas Christian tradition. But it is a subsection of an article and not standalone. A stand-alone article is needed so all churches can link to it. It probably needs to be broken off and merged with the History of the Saint Thomas Christians to form an integral history. The tradition article itself cannot be used as a history since it contains details about the modern churches.
- There are many articles on history, all of them quite different, contradictory and not always believable - DNA claims of Jewish ancestry, claims to be related to Brahmins, etc. This can be in there but needs scholarly criticism to balance it when necessary and available. So the problem for the contributing editor is not to discover an article out there on history - it's discovering how many articles out there. I count at least five more. But there may be ten or fifteen more, most of which needs some kind of merge. The information in them is often quite jumbled. The idea is to put them all in one place, when they are located and try to get all editors working on the same history from the early times through the Coonan Cross incident.
- I just copied and merged the best referenced (best linked) material from the history subsections of the articles on five of the seven (or ten?) churches and used it. I was not the author, per se. The material there is perhaps as old as the material in St. Thomas Christian tradition. The original five articles jointly had a number of authors.
- I am not the "owner" of that article. I welcome footnoted (or linked) changes and updates. No reason the article name can't change, if needed.Student7 (talk) 11:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
The Syrian Christian rite does not seem to be mentioned in the article. This is of course an integral part of Syrian Christian religion and history. It being missing is a flaw in the article. As a side note, unfortunatley there are some (an uncultured minority) under the delusion that Indian history is as homogenous and simple as westerners can accept and feel comfortable with, and have not yet escaped mentally from that yoke of colonialism and racism. As a people Indians need to stop the groupist nonsense. A big part of what makes Indian history so great is the very interactions with different peoples throughout history. To not understand that is to be ignorant of what Indian history is and who Indian people are.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:08, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 18:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 23:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Related Ethinic Group - Ezhava
Why the editors are not accepting the fact that a considerable fragment of the Kerala Christian population are Hindu converts. The page is more interested in propagating false stories and anyone who reads the page is made to believe that the Christians of kerala have come from Syria or are Jew converts. There might be an admixture of such people for sure. But that is at a very miniscule level (a few shiploads of immigrants cannot father a few million people of kerala) The conversion of hindus, especially the ezhavas and other backward castes should be highlighted as there are many citations for proving this. The conversions are still very much there at large and most of these people are from the lower class of the society. The biggest conversion to Christianity happened during the 19th century which is very well documented. This was from Ezhavas and Sree Narayana Guru himself played a vital role in reining in these conversions. This was in the central Travancore region and still there are many ezhava families who are related to Christians. This is also mentioned in the Ezhava page. Hence, the Ezhavas should be added as a related ethinic community in the Kerala Christians page.. It is still so difficult to differentiate between and Ezhava and a Christian in the central Travancore region. Lambodharan —Preceding undated comment added 07:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC).
Edaa Viddi ,Nair or Nambiar ,I very felt that you search some reason to tell Syrian christians to be inferior in caste.but dear viddi ,your tries are failed.ezhavas has got nothing with syrian christians.may be syrian christian janmis might have impregnated some ezhava ladies along with nair and your nambiar ladies.why your jealousy,caste sytem,hypocrisy all exhibited here? In Kerala, After Namboodiris ,Syrian Christians are the Top Class in Caste System.Nairs,Vermas,Nambiars are all not even considered the same before Portuguese invasion.because of our unfortunate loss of old documents burnt out by the portugese ,we cannot claim it with rigid proof now.but still ,Our People still remembers that Nairs/Nambiars = Sudraan.Kettoda?
regarding Ezhava conversion,it was done by CMS bible society and Latin rite which are not part of Syrian Christianity which you are trying hard to make the same as syrian christians.sorry!wrong info! 18.104.22.168 (talk) 06:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Haha..by making these statements, my friend, you have exposed yourself and your casteist mentality. My suggestions were not for any caste credibility nor do I believe in caste system unlike you folks who are still searching for the ‘thazhambu in the aasanam’. The world has gone too far understand that. I’ve mentioned it since it is truth with enough citation and evidence. I am ready to provide more. I do agree with your argument that Christians were equal to upper caste people, and that is exactly the reason why the backward caste who were denied an equal status got converted. Think logically man, don’t get emotional and agitated. “Angadi thottathinu ammede nenchil keri chavitteettu karyamilla’. I know most of the Christians don’t think like you, but some of them still have that grudge of generations for they suffered under the upper caste and would burst out like you. Quite natural and understandable, but this is not the right forum to settle such skirmish. Here, just the weight of your arguments and citations hold good. Hope better sense prevails !Lambodharan —Preceding undated comment added 11:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC).
Its unfortunate that you feel that having Hindu blood is somehow something one should be ashamed of. Those that bring up any notion that Syrian Christians claim to not have any Hindu lineage are either uneducated on the topic or not very bright. I think if you are refusing to acknowledge Syrian Christian history and insist on insulting others with the worst thing you can think of (caste nonsense) then it is you that is agitated. It also betrays your backwards caste mentality. The term Syrian Christian is a reference to the Syrian Rite, just as Latin/Roman Catholic is a reference to the latin rite. For example, most Catholics in Europe are not Romans. Simple to understand, but requires a certain lack of ignorance. European colonialism has unfortunately left many Indians on the far defensive when it comes to Christianity, and the association of Christianity with Europe is a telltale sign of that. It is important to remember that Syrian Christianity is not European Christianity, it is Indian, specifically, Keralite Christianity.
- Jesus! Did I ever say that having ezhava or hindu blood is undermining anyone’s status. Never! In fact I have great respect for people from both Kerala Christian and hindu backward fraternity. They’ve produced some of the best and brightest minds of Kerala to the world. I was just making an attempt to fine-tune the information given in the article. It has a lot of inflated information and denies the fact that the majority of Kerala Christians were indeed Natives who got converted. However, as you have mentioned, following roman or Syrian rite doesn’t mean that the people have come from Syria or Rome or are ethnically related to such people.
- In Fact, the influx from Syria was very less and indeed most of the ancient Christians were predominantly Persians and few Romans. The Syrian influence on kerala chrisitans started as late as 16th century. The Christians of Kerala practiced a peculiar form of Christianity during the early centuries, before the Portuguese invasion. This also included mixture of Christian and Buddhist dogma and even serpent worship. ‘Manikkayan’ was an apostle whom most of these people followed. During that time Kerala Christians enjoyed great encouragement and prosperity. They also had their own kingdom based at Udayamperur. The travelers of that age have noted that they were almost like Nairs in social status, get up etc and it was very difficult to distinguish between them. (Ref: Asiatic Resesarch Vol X, Malabar Manual)Lambodharan
There are so many errors in your historicity that you will not get proper response from me. I simply do not have the time and patience. Thats unfortunate as it would likely serve you well. My suggestion is to read some of the responses youve gotten so far, and do some further research.
Wrong picture ?
In this page i see picture of JOhn Abraham who is a popular Hindi actor ( who's father is a kerala catholic and mother a parsi lady) I am certain that this page should be having the picture of John Abraham, the revolutionary film maker who passed away in late 80s. John trained under Ritvik Ghatak and made 4 movies in all during a ten year period. he died in an unfortunate accident falling off a building and thus we lost a genius to Indian cinema. Hope this error would be corrected.
Incorrect information is provided in many sections as references. Such statements provided in the article doesnot exist in books written by those quoted authors.Editors please note that WP:RELY is provided for non relaible materails.Pamparam (talk) 09:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Can someone verify the sources used in these statements in Introduction,
The Syrian Malabar Nasranis are the descendants of the natives and those of the Jewish diaspora in Kerala          who became Christians in the Malabar Coast in the earliest days of Christianity.       The possibility of the early converts being partially from the ten Lost Tribes of Northern Kingdom of ancient Israel can not also be ruled out.  The community also comprises several ancient Aramaic Christian settlements in Kerala which included Nestorians who were fleeing persecution. The most prominent immigrations took place after the 9th century. It has been suggested that the term Nasrani derives from the name Nazarenes used by ancient Jewish Christians in the Near-East who believed in the divinity of Jesus but clung to many of the Mosaic ceremonies. They follow a unique Hebrew-Syriac Christian tradition which includes several Jewish elements although they have absorbed some Hindu customs. Their heritage is Syriac-Keralite, their culture South Indian with semitic and local influences, their faith St. Thomas Christian, and their language Malayalam.      Much of their Jewish tradition has been forgotten, especially after the Portuguese invasion of Kerala in the early 1500s.      Pamparam (talk) 16:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
- Since all these histories of the seven or so churches in the area are identical up until 1642 or so, there is no reason to slug it out with each group of uncooperative editors each living in their own little world. We need a joint history with (as you have pointed out) WP:RELY footnotes. Anything else is nonsense.
- Well, this article need complete revision as most of the quoted statements are mis representations.Pamparam (talk) 06:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
There are Six articles which supposedly claim common history and content forking. Here are my suggestions in improving them.
I suggest deletion of two articles and limiting the shared and common history to two main articles. Subpages can be used if one wants to expand any section. Sections required can be discussed.
A.Holy Apostolic Throne of St. Thomas - The information provided is not correct as the idea about Throne is only among the Orthodox from 1921. I am not against this article but the misrepresentations need to be removed. Need WP:RELY and the statements given in the article need proper references.
- A separate issue from the common history and one that probably can be easily addressed in that article.Student7 (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
B.Malankara Church – This is a forked article. The Christians has been called as Saint Thomas Christians. The content and scope in the current article is same as that of Saint Thomas Christian tradition and History of the Saint Thomas Christians. I suggest deletion of this article. I suggest moving the content to a sandbox for use in Saint Thomas Christian article so that the contents can be verified and properly referenced can be included in one main article.
C.Saint_Thomas Christian tradition This was the earlier Saint Thomas Christians article.The Christians has been called as Saint Thomas Christians. It was changed and the Content and scope is same as that of Malankara Church and History of the Saint Thomas Christians. I suggest a complete revision of this article. Referenceable and fact based Content from Malankara Church and History of the Saint Thomas Christians can be included.
The scope and the sections and the sub pages for this article can be discussed among the editors.
- I won't argue for the entire article, but I liked the beginning. But all histories should be the same until the Coonan Cross incident. But yes, the three high level articles should be one article. One of the major problems here is the variety of names local Christians have for themselves collectively. That has been the start of some Wikipedia problems and confusion, sometimes. All names should be redirected to one, if a single one can be decided on.Student7 (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
D.History of the Saint Thomas Christians This is a forked article.The content and scope is same as that of Saint Thomas Christian tradition and Malankara Church. I suggest deletion of this article. I suggest moving the content to a sandbox for use in Saint Thomas Christian article so that the contents can be verified and properly referenced can be included in one main article.
- Just don't delete it yet since it is referenced by other articles. One of the problems here is that developing the history "offline" is not a credible process. Responsible editors will want to look at it as it continues. Moving a brand new history to any one of the eight churches will cause severe controvery if not followed by the editors of those eight churches.Student7 (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
E.Malankara Metropolitans This is about 19th century metropolitans. Ideally an article about earlier metropolitans of Syriac Orthodox could have been better. May be the editors can improve this article to include the Malankara Bishops from 17th century.
F. Syrian Malabar Nasrani Most of the references in this article are wrong. It mis-represents history.
- Why we need a common history looked at by all editors and not just from one church.Student7 (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
- The Scope of the Syrian Malabar Nasrani article was from a cultural, social and ethnic perspective from the common shared period. Some of these social and cultural practise exist is varying levels in different denominations. Overtly Jewish hypothesis has been added in that article with misquoting references. As a shared article, I recommend the following sections for this article,
- Hypothesis about Origin
- Social Customs and traditions
- 1.Folk Songs
- 2.Margam Kali
- 3.New born Ceremony
- 4.Marriage Ceremony
- 5.Death Ceremony
- Manner of Worship
- Nasrani Symbol
- Old Manuscripts
- I always liked the Saint Thomas Christian Tradition because it started off listing the eight churches (nothing implied by sequence BTW) 1)Syro-Malabar Catholic Church - West Syrian, 2) Syro-Malankara Catholic Church - East Syrian, 3) Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church - West Syrian 4) Jacobite Syrian Christian Church - West Syrian 5) Chaldean Syrian Church - East Syrian, and 6) Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church - West Syrian in Anglican communion, 7) Malabar Independent Syrian Church - West Syrian, 8) St. Thomas Evangelical Church. Each has their own version of the common history.
- IMO imbedding the entire common history is crazy. It is huge. It detracts from the article. It is very nearly WP:UNDUE at the high level. The articles are supposed to be about the church today but is obscured by what adherents imagine as substantiating their link to St. Thomas is worth. Interesting but way too long.
- I suggest breaking it up into a template summary maybe one page for every three in the actual lengthy history.
- Currently the Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church, just restored it to the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church which had no history for awhile (!), and the Chaldean Syrian Church, all share the identical history. There were others, but new editors came along and not liking the summary (a template for several articles) simply deleted the reference and wrote their own lengthy, tedious, and frequently wrong version. Usually the one on the shelf at church, perhaps.
- As you will discover, some of the editors protecting these articles are, uh, difficult. One (this one?) has several editors that won't give way at all to any reason. While they may disagree with each other, they will brook no dissent from "outsiders." They will tell you (if they talk to you at all) that your article must be deleted and merged into this one.Student7 (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
- I like your statements. Regarding the eight churches- The eighth one you quoted St. Thomas Evangelical Church is a break away group from Mar Thoma Church in 1961. Generally Seven Churches are explained as sharing a common tradition. One who read this article Saint_Thomas_Christian_tradition don’t get any proper idea about how divisions happened.
With the Coonan Cross, gradually ( note that it was gradually- there is nothing like some people taking oath and some did not) the united Church was divided in to as Catholics and Syriac Orthodox. There was only one division among the Catholics since and the Syriac Orthodox saw multiple divisions.
In 18th century end from Syriac Orthodox another church was formed ( 1772 AD)- the Malabar Independent Syrians.The other two churches are formed in 19th century.
- 1874 AD- Chaldean Church from Catholics
- 1876 AD- Mar Thomas Church from Syriac Orthodox
In 20th century
- 1910 AD- Syriac Orthodox split in to as Jacobite and Orthodox
- 1930 AD- Syro Malankara from Syriac Orthodox
I recommend naming the Saint Thomas Christian Tradition as Saint Thomas Christians and adding following sections for the article,
- Rough Chronology
- Early traditions with the Apostle St. Thomas
- Early East Syriac Period
- Medieval period
- Early Bishops
- Arrival of Portuguese
- Arrival of Dutch
- History and Division-Catholics
- History-Syriac Orthodox
- Arrival of British
- Further divisions in Syriac Orthodox
- Religious Jurisdictions
Subpages can be used for lengthy sections. With this each of the seven churches can make a note about the main article for shared common history and the frequent changes and non sourced quotations can be avoided.Pamparam (talk) 22:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
- As suggested by User:Student7, the discussion has been moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indian_Christianity.