User talk:Neduvelilmathew

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good work[edit]

Good work in the cleanup of Marthoma church article

Tinucherian (talk) 04:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I do agree removing Anglican churches tag from Marthoma Church page , but what about Syriac Christianity ???

Tinucherian (talk) 04:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

See below also ! User_talk:Garzo#Marthoma_church_is_Not_an_Anglican_Church_.21.21.21

12:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Mathews Mar Athanasius Metropolitan[edit]

Thank you for contacting me. I was about to revert my edit before checking the diffs. As far as I can see, all instances of "passed away" that I changed to "died" are written in historical sections documenting a series of events in a non-culture-specific way. These should use the term "died". If we were to use point-of-view terms in each article according to what culture it belonged to, it would defy our policy of WP:NPOV and our aim to write as objectively as possible. If I had changed any instances describing the concept of death in the religion, I would revert them. Perhaps you could introduce a sentence explaining death in this religion (the term used, how it is seen, &c.). If you think I'm wrong, please WP:Be bold and revert my edit, or contact me again. --Oldak Quill 16:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian Christianity[edit]

Hi N M Mathew ,

A new Wikiproject was started for Indian Christianity related articles. The goal of this WikiProject is to improve the quality and quantity of information about Indian Christianity available on Wikipedia. Your contributions are highly welcome . Please let others know who might also be interested.
Tinucherian (talk) 11:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Neduvelilmathew , We have noticed your contributions to articles related to Indian Christianity. We thought you might also be interested in joining our WikiProject on Indian Christianity Articles on Wikipedia. We welcome you to join this project! Happy Editing!

-Tinucherian (talk) 18:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
An Useful guide for you :-

Main Project Pages
How to Join the Project ?
Templates for the project
  • The following templates can be used on pages in Wikipedia to associate them with the Indian Christianity WikiProject.

Main templates

  • {{portal|Christianity}} Template to add to MAIN pages of all Christianity-related articles
  • {{ChristianityWikiProject|indian-work-group=yes}} : Template to add to TALK pages of all INDIAN Christianity-related articles
  • {{User WikiProject IndianChristianity}} — Userbox for members to advertise our Indian Christainity Wiki project!
  • [[Category:Indian Christianity]] Category tag to Indian Christainity related articles.
  • {{subst:Welcome2WP-IC}} Invitation to Interested Users.

Stub templates

What Should I do ??
  • These are lots of things you can do to improve the quality of Wikipedia coverage of Indian Christianity and this project
    • Help and contribute to Indian Christanity related Articles
    • Look over the recent changes list for recent improvements to articles, other changes, and vandalism.
    • Attract attention from editors interested in Christianity and Christianity-related topics.
    • Place the WPChristianity banner on the head of Talk Pages of relavent articles.
    • Improve the WPChristianity banner that goes at the head of Talk Pages to handle tags for unreferenced, copyedit needed, cleanup needed, expansion needed, and POV warning.
    • Adopted Topic, where a suite of topically related articles are targeted for improvement until there's a consensus to move on to a new topic. (see here).
    • Article Review, for articles nominated by members for wider review. In this case the new ones go at the top and sink as new ones are added. (see here)
    • Add more reward templates (barnstars), and have people in the task force actually watching logs and rewarding key contributors.
    • Give help on Open tasks
    • Contribute to Portal:Indian Christianity
Thank you !

Award for you[edit]

India Christianity Barnstar.PNG Star of The Indian Christianity Articles
Dear Neduvelilmathew (talk · contribs) ,Thank you for your conributions to Indian christanity related artciles Tinucherian (talk) 17:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Marthoma Church[edit]

Hope you have seen some of the changes I have done to marthoma church page recently. Also I have added more info for Metropolithas from Mar Thoma I with things I know. May be you can expand these articles also ....Otherwise they may be removed on questions of verifibility and being stub articles

Thanks Tinucherian (talk) 03:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Mar Athanasius[edit]

Hi N M Mathew , I have noticed your changes on Thomas Mar Athanasius‎ from Metropolitans of the Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church to Metropolitans of the Malankara Church . Do you think it is right to claim so , when there are more claims to Malankara throne , starting from Mathews Mar Athanasius Metropolitan era? It will be technically not right , when every episcopal church in Malankara have a right to Holy Apostolic Throne of St. Thomas ? - Tinucherian (talk) 05:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Tinu Cherian, The names Malankara Mar Thoma Church and Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church were adopted only after 1900. So the use of Mar Thoma Church before that time is not correct. Mathews Mar Athanasius was accepted by the Church and by the Government as Malankara Metropolitan of the Malankara Church. So his successor Thomas Mar Athanasius was Malankara Metropolitan. The court verdict of the litigation (1879-1889), was only about the Church properties, and it mentioned that the consecration, the authority of Thomas Mar Athanasius as Metropolitan and the properties of the individual parishes were not under consideration.(ref:Verdict Para 19 and 20.) So Thomas Mar Athanasius and successors can be considered as Malankara Metropolitans. (Ref; Canons Of the Malankara Church (1857) No.2 page 7-10). Also see the “History of the Name” in the article “Mar Thoma Church.” The Governement declaration of the head of the church was only to decide to whom the interest of a Deposit (known as Vattipanom) was to be given. Majority of the Malankara Metropolitans were not given any Royal proclamation. As per Canon, all successors of Mar Thoma I, of the ancient Malankara Church have a claim to be Malankara Metropolitan. All episcopal churches and Churches under foreign rule will not come uder this category.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 06:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)(talk)

Portal:Indian Christianity Launched[edit]

We are happy to announce the launch of Portal:Indian Christianity by Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian Christianity , a work force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity and Wikipedia:WikiProject India. Please share your comments and suggestions. - Tinucherian (talk) 17:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Page will be updated soon[edit]

Please dont put writings as 'Page will be updated soon' in the articles. All pages in Wikipedia as subject to updation and changes. Hope you understood what I am suggesting. Otherwise some admin will say the same thing to you. - Tinucherian (talk) 10:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Indian Christianity Launched[edit]

Thanks I shall share your comments & suggestions. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC) Template:Tinucherian:talkback

Malankara Church[edit]

Have a look at my article Malankara Church. It also featured on Wiki Main page this month as DYK .... See Talk:Malankara Church - Tinucherian (talk) 09:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Indian Christianity[edit]


Could you chime in at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indian Christianity? There is some debate going on regarding the name of the portal, project and the template & icon/flag logo. Thanks.Brian0324 (talk) 20:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Changes to Indian Christianity Wikiproject/workgroup[edit]

Upon discussion and consensus ( see here) , The following changes and decisions were taken w.r.t to Indian Christianity workgroup :-

  • The scope of workgroup will be limited to Indian region only for now.
  • The workgroup will be renamed to Christianity in India instead of Indian Christianity.
  • The changes will effect the project pages, Portal and the templates.
  • The templetes will be replaced by a Indian map instead of Tricolor flag picture.

This is FYI - Tinucherian (talk) 04:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Christianity[edit]

Hello Neduvelilmathew!

You are cordially invited to participate in WikiProject Christianity

The goal of WikiProject Christianity is to improve the quality and quantity of information about Christianity available on Wikipedia. WP:X as a group does not prefer any particular tradition or denominination of Christianity, but prefers that all Christian traditions are fairly and accurately represented.

Christian cross.svg

You are receiving this invitation because you are a member of one of the related Christianity Projects and I thought that you might be interested in this project also - Tinucherian (talk) 06:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello Tinu,

Thanks for the invitation. I am delighted. I shall try my best.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 05:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please add your name to the members' page - Tinucherian (talk) 05:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Malankara Metropolitan[edit]

Dear Mathew ,

I read your reply.You said that Mar Athanasios was not the Malankara Metropolitan.But in fact he was.In 1846 Mar Dionysious IV (Malankara Metroplitan),gave away his power and position to Yuyakkim Mar Koorilose,a Metropolitan from Antioch.Thus he became the temporary Malankara Metropolitan.Mar Athanasios filed a case against him.In 1848,the Kollam Panchayath(a commitee made by the king to settle the case) declared that Mathews Mar Athanasios was the real Malankara Metropolitan,and in 1852 July 28,The Royal Proclamation agreed to the decision of the Panchayath and again declared that Athanasios was the real Malankara Metropolitan Arun V Roy (talk) 06:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Arun Roy,

“Metropolitan of the Syrian Christians”. This was what was written in the royal proclamation. We do not know why the government did not use the phrase “Malankara Metrapolitan”. Details of this are given in Malankara Marthoma Sabha Charitram Volume II, Pages 53-58, 77-78. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 05:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


Hi, you recently created the article Titusji. A quick google search shows to me that the subject is notable enough and that reliable references for it should exist. However, I think the article could use some work. I've left some tags on the article; in addition, is "Titusji" a first name - if so, does he have a last name? I think a little more context and perhaps some references would be helpful to ensure that the article is not deleted. Thanks for contributing, CrazyChemGuy (talk) 20:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

After entering the introduction to this article, instead of clicking the preview, I clicked the save page. And so the edit conflicts arose. Before finishing the editing I noticed the error and so I am making the necessary changes.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 21:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Infobox Marthoma Bishop[edit]

I saw that you have created {{Infobox Marthoma Bishop}} which is almost similar to the old one {{Infobox Bishop}}. Since it is redundant to the older one, it is likely that it may be nominated for deletion by someone.. Anyways let us see -- Tinu Cherian - 04:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Mar Thoma Church[edit]

Please do not keep on trying to remove the Syriac Christianity infobox from Mar Thoma Church (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). We have had a discussion about it, and you were unable to show that the church does not stand in this tradition. I have repeatedly pointed out that the liturgy, ceremonial, clothing, calendar and sacred language of church is that of the Syriac churches, both East and West. The near total use of Malayalam in the church today does not diminish this fact. Thank you. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 15:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Grazol Gareth.
This article is about my church, The Mar Thoma Church, and not about any other church. We know about our church, its history and traditions better than anybody else. Both your additions are unnecessary, unwanted and unwarranted. Hope you will not try to add these again and again. Thanks.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
It is not possible to win your argument by suggesting you own 'secret knowledge' or some other inside knowledge; the issue is about the well-known history of the Mar Thoma Church, about which I am supported by every source written about the church. You have never offered an argument to support your claims, so how can you be expected to be taken seriously? Your revert of me has been reverted again by another user, so already you are running against consensus. I have repeated my detailed argument on the article's talk page. If you actually have an argument, which I believe you do not, then add it to that talk page for consideration. Thank you. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 18:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

What is the purpose of including this unnecessary, unwanted and unwarranted thing into this article? If I am running against consensus, let it be there. At least you will be happy.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 18:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not about my happiness. You have never, ever, given any reason why it is 'unnecessary, unwanted and unwarranted'. Please give an academic argument rather than empty rhetoric in the future. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 19:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Neduvelilmathew, do you realize you are arguing time and time again with scholars of Syriac, Church history, theology, and Tradition? You keep returning academic fact with rhetoric and nonsense. Mr. Hughes is an Anglican priest and Syriac scholar at Oxford. Where have you studied and what makes the books you site worth anything? We all understand YOU wrote the books you keep citing, the question is - why should we believe your statements when they go against history, tradition, language, verifiable fact, and consensus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Ur artice on Throne of St.Thomas is wrong[edit]

It is history that St.Thomas didnot ordain a bishop in India. Only the view of Orthodox and jacobite church is correct, with regard to this throne. Refer to the history of Catholicate of East. See also the writings of Catholicos Bar Ebria of the 13th century AD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Who is Catholicos Bar Ebria of the 13th century AD? Is he from Malankara? Malankara Church belongs to the Malankara people. Outsiders can write whatever they want. For me believing them is difficult. Hope you will not try to write the history of other countries and churches and tell them to believe it.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 08:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Mathew, U are talking like Jesus was from Malankara. Dont forget that Mathew Athanasius also got ordination from Antioch. Is Antioch in Malankara?. Christianity is not confined to a particular place or region. Its catholic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexyalex (talkcontribs) 07:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


I guess you are saying that the Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church is not the Malankara Church. Is that correct? If so, should the latter then be included in Saint Thomas Christian tradition? Student7 (talk) 15:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Can't seem to get Anthony on Stilts attention as I had hoped for History of the Saint Thomas Christians. Do you have a nominee church article for a baseline for this history that I could pick up and drop in here? Looking to put this all in one spot so we can all refine one instead of trying to keep seven histories all up to date and (sometimes) fight wars with recalcitrant newbies who disagree. Would help focus our efforts. Can you help? Thanks. Student7 (talk) 23:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Your letter dated 6 April, 2009. Only today I saw that letter. So I shall answer that first. I don’t remember writing like that! Indian (Malankara) Orthodox Church is part of the Malankara Church. I have no doubt about it. Some of those Church leaders are my friends also. Many of them provided me help in writing my books. There are a few other Churches also that are really part of the Malankara Church. All these Churches try to keep the Saint Thomas Christian traditions. If you find anywhere it is wrongly mentioned, please contact me or you may correct it.

Then about your search for a nominee Church article, for a base line for the History of the Saint Thomas Christians. Your interest is to put all the seven in one spot. There are lots of books on this history. But if you are adding one more in Wikipedia and making it eight, then you will have to fight wars with eight recalcitrant newbies who disagree. If you ask my advice I would recommend not to attempt and waste your valuable time. I can’t think of it, because I have read a number of books on this topic. I have done some research on the History of Malankara Church, but for writing actual facts in my books, I had to rely on excavations, books written during that period of time, documents and other relevant sources. My books are in Malayalam, (my mother tongue and the language of the St.Thomas Christians.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 03:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I went on to change five church articles. Two left. Two major church articles remaining. (You are saying eight churches, which means there are three left). I am not ready yet to address the other two (three?). I am away from my regular editing station and won't be back until next Tuesday. Anyway, there is now one history article for those five churches for the time period 54 AD (and before) to the Coonan Cross incident and beyond, though that later material may have to be extracted. Not necessarily applicable to both Catholic churches. So far, so good. No complaints yet. I will, of course, keep your email to better understand your remarks when I have time to examine them in detail. Student7 (talk) 16:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your email. I looked at your edit and was impressed by the documentation of the embassy from India. I can't argue with facts! I don't know about the Augustan temple, but it's not worth arguing over. The embassy winding up as the Three Wise Men is another matter, but I think it is worded okay - "Keralans believe..." You have impressive credentials. No wonder the Mar Thoma Church article is in such good shape! :) Maybe I am the "second oldest Wikipedian"? (b 1936 :).
Okay to write future contents of emails like this on the article page. It might be instructive to other editors. Unless you want to tell me that I am an idiot! Then I would appreciate the information by private email! :) 21:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I was interested in getting approval to merge the History of the Saint Thomas Christians into the Saint Thomas Christian tradition. I have an idea on how to do that and meet the goals of all parties. I need to make the actual move myself! It will be a credible move, however. No switches in text! :) I wanted to wait until everybody is ready so they won't feel forced to make a lot of changes all at once. Student7 (talk) 20:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Dear student 7, I have no comments Neduvelilmathew (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, you were right about the "recalcitrant." Newbies they are not, alas. They want to destroy the merged history which (since it was constructed by me, a newbie to Karalan history) may have some naive stuff in it, but was neutral and (I think) contained more information than theirs. But that is their choice.
Would you mind taking a stand, if called upon, if and when they try to destroy the newly merged article? Just one note might help and I don't need it yet. I will just need more than just me which it is so far. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your answer. I agree about the stray comments on Roman History having nothing to do with the St. Thomas Christians. Someone apparently wanted to "put the timeline into perspective" and got carried away. I left this and other matters that seemed irrelevant out of my combined history. Using exact days for Thomas's arrival seemed nonsensical. I've kept some of them but questioned them either in imbedded comments or placing "fact" tags.
I don't know about the language problems and would have to use your guidance in these matters.
I'm hoping to avoid all-out-war with this group right now. Don't know whether I will succeed. I merged a bunch of their history, hopefully skipping some of the nonsence, but probably not all. History after the Portuguese seems pretty straigtforward.
At some point in time, we will probably wind up in mediation where we may educate a group of our fellow editors under admin guidance. In the meantime, I was hoping, with your help, to come up with a valid combined history to substitute. I know what you mean about "one more reference," but WP:RELY does matter, particularly with the admin listening in.
I think we are trying to accomplish the same thing. You were missing support in the past. I think I can help with that. While I am new to St. Thomas history, I have been editing awhile. Also, with constant pouring over six histories, I have had a certain amount of exposure to church history as well. Student7 (talk) 13:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt reply. I am making a few corrections in the article Saint Thomas Christian Traditions. If there is any objection please consult, I shall revert it.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I had hoped to benefit from your editing on History of the Saint Thomas Christians which is the merged article from five churches plus Saint Thomas Christian tradition. It does only represent the history through Coonan Cross, however, so a limited history, but applicable to all churches. Feel free, of course, to edit whatever you like! The problem with St T..Traditions is that is only applicable to the one church that had the entire history. Also, as an article incorporating other material besides history, it can't be referenced from the other churches as a "history-only" article. Student7 (talk) 22:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I followed you through on several of your changes on "precise" dates in ancient history. Some of the other dates I did not have, not considering them important. I suppose the exact treaty of the division between Spain and Portugal should be put in there, but India "just happened" to be east of the line and wasn't specifically mentioned. I had omitted material and events external to Kerala except da Gama's arrival which seemed significant. Anyway...Student7 (talk) 22:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Another newbie is taking a crack at common sense. Are you following the discussion at Talk:Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani#POV. He has some interesting ideas. Could use your support. If we collect enough of these folks over the years, we may prevail! :) Student7 (talk) 13:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

This newbie has edited not only Syrian Christian Nazrani, but also a number of other articles on Malankara Churches, highlighting his views. He does not accept original documents as reliable. His views are not neutral. He wants others to believe what he says.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Oops! Thanks! (He does give lip service to WP:RELY sources. Maybe he is persuadable? Right now he may not want to bite off as much as I want anyway, so maybe no problem!).Student7 (talk) 18:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That is a great relief.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 04:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I've been away from Wikipedia for a week. I've tried to calm them down. As you've said before, some of the best references may not be online nor in English, but perhaps we can agree on using some of them rather than agreeing on actual statements from them. You will have to disclose those which you have authored if you recommend them! Somehow, I don't think they will make it to the final cut because of that even if they are better than others. But perhaps there are others as well. It might be nice if there were a few online and in English as well. They may not be the most comprehensive nor document the most important facts. We have several good editors that may be persuadable. I've seen larger tasks done by fewer dedicated editors. Student7 (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Mar Thoma Church[edit]

I was trying to understand your edit [1] to the article Mar Thoma Church. I have no opinion on it per se one way or the other. I had thought that the original editor was trying to say that the wooden statue was one of St. Thomas. While St. Thomas lived in the 1st century, it is not unusual to have statues of long-dead saints even nowdays, right? So I did not understand the reason for the revert, even though I hold no opinion on whether it is important to the article or not. Can you help me understand that edit? Thanks. Student7 (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

In the original the name of the saint was not given but user had added the name St. Thomas the Apostle. That was the one reverted. I am not sure why the name of an Apostle was given by
It is the practice of St. Thomas Christians to call their head of Church, Malankara Mooppen (Leader) and bishops of other churches Muthappen (old father). St. Thomas is much respected and they call him Thoma Sleeha. (Apostle Thomas).
The statue was that of a bishop named Mar Baselios Yeldho (This is the name used by Antioch in one of their records, but I have seen two other slightly different versions for this name) from Karakosh near Mosul in Iraq who arrived in Kerala on September 14, 1685 and died after 13 days. His statue was called “statue of Muthappan”. This was the one used at Maramon Church and not that of Apostle St. Thomas. So it was reverted.
Removal of this statue had a great impact during reformation and so it is included in this article. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:49, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I had hoped that the editor had made changes to File:Nasrani Evolution.jpg "Relationship of the Nasrani groups" that would satisfy your criticism. I discovered this wasn't so after encountering your deletion in the article Mar Thoma Church. I have been busily reverting deletions to this file from other area churches for the past several days!
As an outsider, I found that this chart (or one like it) helped to explain the division of churches in the Karala area. Without it, an outsider is lost. Totally lost.
Is there anything that can be done to rescue this material? An editor has suggested replacing the chart with one that is editable by all of us. Would this help?
Us folks who support truth in history need to stick together here! A little bit harder when each of us has a different version of the truth! A lot easier for the people who don't really care! :) Student7 (talk) 19:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Student 7.

Thanks for all your suggestions. I don’t have much free time these days and so the delay. It is true to say that we need to find the truth and then support it. So let me talk about the File:Nasrani Evolution.jpg.

A common history.

The following names are often used in Wikipedia:- Marthoma Nasrani, Saint Thomas Christians (or Marthoma Christians), Syrian Malabar Nasrani, Syrian Malabar Christians, Syrian Christians of Kerala, Knanaya.

Are all these the names of the same group of people? If they are, then we can say that they have a common history. If they are the same group, why are they addressed differently? The File:Nasrani Evolution.jpg, is prepared basing on the assumption that all these are the same group or they evolved from the same origin.

If they are of different groups, their origins are different and then they cannot have a common history. In fact they are not the same group.Hope I need not explain this.

File:Nasrani Evolution.jpg seems to me as a forceful entry into the history of Mar Thoma Church by a person or persons of another Church. But do the members of one Church/religion have the authority to enter an article with their version of history and teachings and include them in the articles of another church/religion? I know that if there is a disagreement on any point, before editing that page they are expected to use the talk pages. From my point of view, this kind of intrusion is one of the reasons for the division of Churches in the Kerala area.

If the file is not about their churches and if someone wants to enter their Files into some other Church history, let them first use the talk pages. Otherwise people can just enter into the history of other Churches, religions and nations; enter imaginary stories into biographies of people whom they love or hate, and make Wikipedia a mockery and convert it as an Encyclopedia of unreliable sources. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:45, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

We will try to stop that. We have several people now that are capable of keeping some sort of order. Two of us, myself and Tb are essentially "neutral", thought Tb admits to a tendency to favor the Mar Thoma Church. But he is really neutral IMO. I am Catholic and realize that a lot of problems were caused by the Catholic church during the Portuguese administration of Goa. But this tended to disappear once the Dutch and English took over.
Having said that, we don't have the specific knowledge of the Indian Churches. But we ask editors to convince us. They will have to convince readers in any case.
Thanks to Rahuljohnson4u, there are answers to your original questions at File_talk:Nasrani_Evolution.jpg#Answers_to_Neduvelilmathew.27s_comments. I would appreciate if you could take a look at them sometime when you get a chance. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 21:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject India Newsletter, Volume IV, Issue 2 – July 2009[edit]

To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please list yourself in the appropriate section here. Delivered automatically by -- Tinu Cherian BOT - 15:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

{{Unblock|Do not know why it is blocked. Unblocking is requested}}Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not see any blocks on your account ... what happened that makes you think there is one? Any specific messages? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Probably the account is autoblocked. Follow the instructions below to clear the block

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Question on Talk:Nag Hammadi library[edit]

The talk pages of articles are reserved for discussions about article improvement. I have taken the liberty of moving your question to the reference desk, where you will also have a much greater chance of getting a reply. Thank you. --Saddhiyama (talk) 17:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Marthomans were Jacobites.[edit]

Marthomans before the Reformations used the West Syriac St. James liturgy and accepted the ordinated of Syriac Orthodox bishops. Their Qurbana was Syriac Orthodox which included veneration and intercession of saints, prayers for departed etc/

Please refer any non-marthomite website, any catholic, jacobite or orthodox website. Some websites of certain marthoma parishes also state this fact. Or any history book. Some catholic history books claim the Marthomas desperately tried to get reunited with Roman Catholic Church. But even they acknowledge the fact they were syriac orthodox.

This is very basic and very common info, matthew.

Mathenkozhencherry (talk) 16:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Uncommon history[edit]

Your remark that Keralans had not one, but four histories, sounds a little too close to the truth. I will await with interest the replies on the History page, if any. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 23:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Leyamma[edit]

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The article Leyamma has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No indication of how this might meet notability guidelines. Lacks citations to significant coverage in reliable sources.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{dated prod}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. RadioFan (talk) 18:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Maramon 028.jpg[edit]


Thank you for uploading File:Maramon 028.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


Please would you go through the article and make your comments on it. Fyodor7 (talk) 18:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Fyodoe7,

Thanks for the letter. Later I shall go through the article and write comments on it. I am now busy with my two books and soon after finishing I am planning to go through all articles related to St. Thomas Christians. I do not consider the references in this article as reliable. Moreover there are a lot of discrepancy.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Manichaeism in India[edit]

I am not aware of scholarly work discussing Manichaeism in India, so I can't help you. But I imagine it is quite possible there was influence, as you know there was the Jewish-Christian Syriac sects in India which were in more recent history destroyed. If you find a concrete scholarly study on the subject, please mention it in the article.Jimhoward72 (talk) 20:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

80 Wishes[edit]

Best wishes on entering your 80th year. I did make some edits some time back on the late Mr. T. M. Varghese, Thandaneth. Karnan (talk) 14:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Repeating my wishes. Karnan (talk) 09:51, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Sir. Much honoured. Karnan (talk) 15:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


Thank you Mathew, you are very kind. (talk) 02:26, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject India Newsletter Volume V, Issue no. 1 - (June 2010)[edit]

Project News

WP:IND Newsletter is back! It's been nearly a year since the last edition, but we hope to bring out issues on a more regular basis now. The India Wikiproject was set up to increasing coverage of India-related topics on Wikipedia, and over the past few months the focus has been on improving article quality. A number of the project's featured articles underwent featured article reviews over the past year. Of these, Darjeeling and Flag of India survived the review process, while the rest were demoted. During the same period, Gangtok, Harbhajan Singh, Darjeeling and Mysore were featured on the main page respectively on August 20, September 17, November 6 and December 29, 2009. Meanwhile, articles on topics as diverse as Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760), Marwari horse and Iravan were promoted as featured articles, and respectively appeared on the main page on March 25, May 17 and May 28, 2010. Consequently, the number of FA-class articles under the project's scope dropped from 67 in August 2009 to 63 in June 2010. The number of good articles, however, saw a more than 40% increase, from 91 to 130 during the same period, while the number of featured lists saw a 33% increase from 12 to 16.

Due to the recent policy changes regarding unreferenced Biographies of Living People (BLPs), an effort was started in January 2010 to source all unreferenced BLPs coming under Wikiproject India. 1200 such articles were identified initially and more were added to the list later. Due to the sourcing effort, the number of Indian unreferenced BLPs is down to 565 currently. During February-April 2010, There was a large scale disruption of Kerala related articles by a Thrissur based IP vandal. Editing from a dynamic IP BSNL connection, the vandal changed dates of birth, death and ages of a number of Malayalam and Tamil film actors. Later he added a few international biographies to his list. He also marked some living people like Arvind Swamy as dead. A month long range block was imposed on his IP range two times and each time he came back to vandalise dates once the block expired. Currently the range has been blocked for three months till September 11, 2010.

What's New?
Current proposals and discussions
  • A discussion is underway here to reach a consensus regarding the use of Indian number names (lakh, crore etc.) in Wikipedia articles. Please participate and add your comments.
  • A discussion is in progress here in order to determine whether non-Western (including Indian) forms of classical music should be referred to by the nomenclature of art music instead of classical music. Please participate and add your comments.
  • Watchlist the Articles for Deletions page for India related discussions. Opinions from more Indian Wikipedians are required in many of the discussions.

If you've just joined, add your name to the Members section of WikiProject India. You'll get a mention in the next issue of the Newsletter and get it delivered as desired. Also, please include your own promotions and awards in future issues. Don't be shy!

Lastly, this is your newsletter and you can be involved in the creation of the next issue (Issue 2 – (July 2010)). Any and all contributions are welcome. Simply let yourself be known to any of the undersigned, or just start editing!

Looking forward toward more contributions from you!
Complete To Do List
Although having the newsletter appear on everyone's userpage is desired, this may not be ideal for everyone. If, in the future, you wish to receive a link to the newsletter, rather than the newsletter itself, you may mention it at WikiProject India Outreach Department

This newsletter is automatically delivered by -- Tinu Cherian BOT - 18:26, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject India Newsletter Volume V, Issue no. 2 - November 2010[edit]

English WikiProject News

After a missed issue, the WP:IND newsletter is back on track to being a regular bimonthly feature. The Indian WikiProject has seen plenty of online and off-line action, both in English as well as other Indian languages, and we now have a bigger, better format that intends to feature content and news from the English as well as other Indian language Wikipedias.

Reaching out to Indians has been the theme of the Indian Wikiproject over the past couple of months, aiming to involve a greater number of Indians in editing both the English and Indian language Wikipedias. To this end, efforts to set up the Indian chapter of Wikimedia have moved into their final stages, and registration of the society is currently pending. An effort is underway to push for "WikiMarathons" at meetups, where attendees will be encouraged to edit the English and/or Indian language Wikipedias. This is intended to popularise Wikipedia editing among the general public. In addition, a bot to post DYK's from the Indian Wikiproject to Twitter was created and launched by User:Logicwiki.

What's New?

Regrettably, the number of Featured Articles has dropped from 63 in June to 58 at the end of October 2010. Several FAs came up for review and were delisted, while Fundamental Rights, Directive Principles and Fundamental Duties of India was saved. Meanwhile, Chalukya Dynasty appeared on the main page on July 9, 2010. Hearteningly, the number of Good Articles increased from 130 to 136 during the same period, while the number of Featured Lists remained constant at 16.

The source code for the Article Alert Bot is now available and the bot itself is expected to be up and running very shortly. This means that article alerts for the Indian Wikiproject will again be available, enabling editors to easily keep track of developments in respect of reviews, nominations, deletions etc.

The date change vandal mentioned briefly in the previous issue made a reappearance when the range block on his IP range expired in September. Consequently the block was extended till September 2011.

In October there was a heated discussion in the India project noticeboard regarding the copyright status of the Indian party symbols. The discussion was triggered by the deletion of Wiki San Roze's party symbol images by Hammersoft as copyright violations. No resolution was reached, partly because of our inability to explain to Hammersoft how election symbols in India differ from party logos. Comments are requested from anyone with a background in Indian copyright law to clarify this issue.

Complete To Do List
News from Indian-language Wikipedias
  • The Bengali Wikisource, which contains the literary works of many prominent writers of Bengali language including Rabindranath Tagore, has crossed the 5,000 pages milestone. According to List of Wikisource page, Bengali Wikisource is now at rank 21 among 56 Wikisource based on number of content pages.
The Tamil Wikipedia stall at the World Classical Tamil Conference 2010 in Coimbatore in June 2010.
Jimmy Wales introduces the Malayalam Wikipedia CD of 500 selected articles during his key note address at Wikimania 2010 at Gdansk.
  • The Hindi Wikipedia and its sister wiki projects migrated to the new vector interface on September 1, 2010. In addition, Hindi is the first (and so far the only) Indian language to be incorporated into the WikiBhasha translation and contribution toolkit developed by Microsoft Research.

Community news
The first meetup in Delhi on 22 September 2010.

Mumbai and Delhi held their first meetups in September, where Wikimedia Board members Barry Newstead and Bishakha Datta met up with Wikipedians and other interested members of the public in these cities. A month later, Hyderabad also held its first meetup.

Arun Ram, Shiju Alex and Barry Newstead releasing the Wikimedia India community newsletter at the nineteenth Bangalore meetup on 24 September 2010.

Wikipedians in Bangalore continued their tradition of meeting up regularly at the Centre for Internet and Society, with the nineteenth meetup in September featuring Barry and Bishaka as attendees, and marking the release of the community newsletter. Along with Delhi and Mumbai, Bangalore is reported to be one of the three cities in contention for the Indian office of the Wikipedia Foundation.

Jimmy Wales speech at the Mumbai Wikipedia Meetup #3 on 31 October 2010. Intro by User:Bishdatta & User:Arunram. (Recorded by User:AshLin.)

Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales had an interaction with Wikipedians followed by a presentation to members of the public at the third Wikipedia meetup in Mumbai on October 31, 2010.

The first Wikimarathon, where Wikipedians and members of the public were encouraged to contribute to Wikimedia projects onsite, was held simultaneously at the meetups in Bangalore and Chennai on November 14, 2010. Wikipedians in Delhi also held a meetup the same day.

The Malayalam Wikipedia held several academies in different parts of Kerala over the past few months.

Wikimedia Foundation board member Bishakha Datta and Indian Wikipedian Srinivas Gunta co-authored a panel presentation at Wikimania 2010 on the Wikimedia Asia Project.

Current proposals and discussions
  • This interesting discussion on the quality of editing in India-related articles has been underway for on the noticeboard a few days. Feel free to join in and express your opinion.

If you've just joined, add your name to the Members section of Wikipedia:WikiProject India. You'll get a mention in the next issue of the Newsletter and get it delivered as desired. Also, please include your own promotions and awards in future issues. Don't be shy!

Lastly, this is your newsletter and you can be involved in the creation of the next issue. Any and all contributions are welcome. Simply let yourself be known to any of the undersigned, or just start editing!


SBC-YPR, Sodabottle (Editors)

Tinucherian (Distributor)

This newsletter incorporates content from the WikiMedia India Community Newsletter, September 2010.

Looking forward to more contributions from you!
Although having the newsletter appear on everyone's userpage is desired, this may not be ideal for everyone. If, in the future, you wish to receive a link to the newsletter, rather than the newsletter itself, you may mention it at WikiProject India Outreach Department

This newsletter is automatically delivered by User:Od Mishehu AWB, operated by עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

File:Orologio rosso or File:Orologio verde DOT SVG (red clock or green clock icon, from Wikimedia Commons)
This blocked user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Neduvelilmathew (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribsdeleted contribscreation logchange block settingsunblockfilter log)

Request reason:

I have no iea why it is blocked. For the last few days I had trouble from sock Puppet

Decline reason:

Per below, you are not directly blocked. Please post the autoblock unblock message to provide more information. Stephen 04:23, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired.

I don't see any block of you or the IPs which you use. Can you paste the message you see when you try to edit? TNXMan 11:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


Hi! Thank you so much for your comments on my Talk page about Muziris. I have some of the translations quoted in the article at my home. I will check them later this week when I return and try to reference them properly and maybe do a few other edits. I look forward to cooperating with you on improving the material on this very interesting subject. All best wishes, Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 10:50, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Roman Scripts[edit]


I was also confused to see this "rare" discovery in Wikimedia. According to Wikimedia, the author is KondottySultan at [2], I only moved it to the corresponding page.

If the image is fake, really sorry, and thank you for your interest in Muziris other projects, and please check the article Tyndis for any corrections.

(Rameez pp (talk) 12:24, 7 April 2011 (UTC))

Article Muziris[edit]

It seems that the quality of the article Muziris is below standards.

Pls contribute to make it good? (Rameez pp (talk) 13:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC))

Reply to Questions re Muziris[edit]

Thanks to Users Rameez and Neduvelilmathew for your comments about the Muziris and Pattanam articles above. Apologies for my late reply. I have been travelling for the past couple of months - often with no, or very limited, internet access. I am in Luoyang, China at the moment and, unfortunately, cannot get any of the images in these articles to download, so it is impossible for me to make any worthwhile comments on things such as whether one of the images might be a fake at least until after I return home about the middle of this month. Also, I am by no means an expert on such matters and am not qualified to give an opinion as to whether an image might be fake.

Is there any chance that there might be other WP editors with expert knowledge in this field? Perhaps we could start by contacting whoever originally posted the image and asking them details on its provenance, etc? User:Neduvelilmathew - would you be able to follow up on this?

As to whether the articles on Muziris and Pattanam should be combined - I think it might be best to first improve the article on ancient Muziris (correct mistakes and discrepancies, provide more references, and makes some decision about the questionable image), and then transfer it into a sedction on the history of Pattanam (with appropriate intenal links, of course). What do you two think of such a proposal?

I will be happy to try to help with this process later in the month after I get settled at home and have a decent broadband link and access to my books and papers. Please remind me if you don't hear from me for a while - I am getting quite forgetful as I age. :)

All best wishes to you both and thank you for bringing these issues to my attention. I do think it is important to have a really accurate and consistent article on this key article. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 10:53, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your immediate comments. Let's make it "the best" .

Rameez pp (talk) 11:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


I came across your correction in the article Malankara Church. Regarding translation of the Malayalam words. Pazhayakuuttu and Puthenkuuttu - according to present Malayalam dictionaries and 1872 Dictionary by Gundert, the word “kuuttu” means friendship or union. Nowhere I could see the meaning, as “rite”.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:58, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I borrowed the meaning for this particular instance, from the preface of 'Niranam Grandavary'.. At any rate, the word 'koor' can be interpreted in different ways... But 'Party' is not at all the correct word and appropriate one.

What you did check in the dictionary is കുട്ടു = Friendship.

(If your browser has Malayalam font installed, you can read the below)

കുട്ടു = Friendship (കുട്ടുകെട്ടു)

കൂര്‍ = അടുപ്പം (One meaning) eg: "എനിക്ക് കോണ്‍ഗ്രസ്‌ പാര്‍ടിയോട് ആണ് കൂര്‍"

Can you please search the word,'koor' in the dictionary and not 'kuttu'.

കൂര്‍ എന്നാ വാക്കിന്റെ 500 കൊല്ലം മുന്‍പ് ഉള്ള അര്‍ഥം, തന്നെ ആകണം ഇന്നും എന്നില്ല... എന്റെ അഭിപ്രായത്തില്‍ ഇത് കാതോലികര്‍, മലങ്കര നസ്രാണികളെ താഴ്ത്തി കാണിക്കാന്‍ കണ്ടു പിടിച്ച ഒരു വാക്ക് മാത്രം ആണ് .. അത് കൊണ്ട്, "rite" എന്നാ പ്രയോഗം ആണ്, ഒരു "പാര്‍ട്ടി" എന്നാ പ്രയോഗത്തിലും നല്ലത് ... Credit Risk (talk) Hi, Credit risk

Thanks for your prompt reply. The “tt” in the word “kuttu” sounds like ‘t’ in cat or sat; not like “tt” in butter or cutter.
What does the word Koor means in the names of the two anciect kingdoms Thekumkoor or Vadkumkoor? There are house names in Kerla like Vadakkeykuttu and Thekkeykuttu. What does the word “kuttu” means here?
The correct meaning of the word is not what is known now, but what it was when used for the first time by the Portuguese bishops around 1758.
Preface of 'Niranam Grandavary' that I have, was written in the twentieth century. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 18:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Syrian Malabar Nasrani[edit]

There is lot of vandalism taking place on the page Syrian Malabar Nasrani. You may help in stopping vandalism. thanks Robin klein (talk) 14:51, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Syrian Malabar Nasrani [edit]

Information.svg An article that you have been involved in editing, Syrian Malabar Nasrani , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Cúchullain t/c 14:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

KJ Yesudas[edit]

Sir, I'm not 100% sure. I'm trying to confirm --Ashleypt 16:44, 20 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley thomas80 (talkcontribs)

Saint Thomas Christians[edit]

User: Thom100 has deleted the Merge Tag from both the source and target articles while the discussion was going on. His behavior is quite erratic and against the basic policies of Wikipedia. I think it would be better to refer the case for the Administrator's intervention. Your comment would be helpful in this regard. --Ashleypt (talk) 09:19, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Thoma I - Thoma XII[edit]

Hello. Per a valid requested move, and per WP:Naming conventions (clergy)#Syriac bishops, these articles do not have Mar in fromt of them (ie, Thoma I not Mar Thoma I. Do not move them again. fish&karate 05:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

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Muziris (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)
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Please read these documents relate to Muziris, telling that Communist Govt in Kerala and the researchers are fabricating evidence to show that Muziris is in Ernakulam Dt and not in Thrissur Dt. (talk) 13:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thachil Matthoo Tharakan[edit]

Do you have sources to claim, that his EAR only was cut off? What I have heard as a kid and the source also claim that both his Ears and Nose were cut off... Please let me know if you have any reliable source..Thanks Fyodor7 (talk) 09:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The well studied source on Tharakan is by M. O. Joseph, which is in the references in Tharakan's article. I don't have it with me here, so I can't quote chapter and verse, but I do remember reading about this point very well. One of his ears was cut off. Karnan (talk) 01:09, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks man... Had a doubt, as to who is right, Sankunni or Joseph...Fyodor7 (talk) 03:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
You are very welcome. I would take statements by Sankunni Menon on this particular topic with a pinch of salt. Karnan (talk) 17:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Reading the above question, I thought I shall write what I know about this subject.

P. Sankunni Menon in his book ‘’Thiruvithamcore Charitram’’ (History of Travancore, Malayalam, 1878. New edition 1988.) states that the people’s court passed the verdict on Matthoo Tharakan, and was whipped, ears cut off and put in prison at Trivandrum. (p.248). This was written by a high official of the Travancore government, about 70 years after the event.

M.O. Joseph, Nedukunnam, in his book ‘’Thachil Matthoo Tharakan,’’ (Malayalam, National Book Stall, Kottayam, 1947.revd.ed.1962) states that, Matthoo Tharakan was brought to Trivandrum from the north, put in fetters (p.314), whipped and cut off his two ears. (p.315). This was written after about 140 years after the event.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Fyodor (who I notice is now an outlaw) had asked me this long back. I do not have M. O. Joseph's book with me, so I could not verify. I suppose I was mistaken a bit in the details of my response. Since M. O. Joseph was privy to Thachil family archives, I consider his account reliable. I have Menon's book, but since he represents a state which has on the whole branded Tharakan as a traitor (contrary to the opinion of the then reigning Monarch), I am suspicious about his account (which may also not have been based on sufficient documents, since Velu Tampi burnt many of them in Trivandrum). Karnan (talk) 15:42, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

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Ichthus: January 2012[edit]

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January 2012

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Thank you![edit]

Thank you for your efforts at sourcing List of people from Kerala‎ ! -- The Red Pen of Doom 22:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. Thanks for the commendation. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 15:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Mar Thoma Syrian Church[edit]

Left a comment regarding the church's name at the talk page. Can you please respond?--Cúchullain t/c 20:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

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Sorry about this [3]. I was a little trigger happy after encountering a whole series of IPs and new editors entering unsourced names on BLP lists.

I didnt connect your user name to the person who has been diligently sourcing the content in this article at the time I hit UNDO.

Thank you for all of your work! -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

August 2013[edit]

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Elavumthitta may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "{}"s. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

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