User talk:Obiwankenobi/Archive 7
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Forumshop warning
Hi Obi, I've noticed before that you like to move a discussion to another forum when participation is low and/or your opinion doesn't outnumber that of your opponents.
The one that springs most to my mind is Category talk:LGBT people → Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies, which was totally ineffective and just stalled the discussion.
(I can look up diffs but I suppose you'll remember what I'm talking about)
I've pointed you to the applicable policies and guidelines more than once, but here they are again for your information:
1. WP:FORUMSHOP: policy
Forum shopping, admin shopping, and spin-doctoring. Raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards, or to multiple administrators, is unhelpful to finding and achieving consensus. It doesn't help develop consensus to try different forums in the hope of finding one where you get the answer you want. (This is also known as "asking the other parent".) Queries placed on noticeboards should be phrased as neutrally as possible, in order to get uninvolved and neutral additional opinions. Where multiple issues do exist, then the raising of the individual issues on the correct noticeboards may be reasonable, but in that case it is normally best to give links to show where else you have raised the question.
2. WP:CANVASS#Appropriate notification: guideline
An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following:
- The talk page of one or more articles, WikiProjects, or other Wikipedia collaborations directly related to the topic under discussion.
- A central location (such as the Village pump or other relevant noticeboards) for discussions that have a wider impact such as policy or guideline discussions.
- On the talk pages of a user mentioned in the discussion (particularly if the discussion concerns complaints about user behavior).
- On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include:
- Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article
- Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)
- Editors known for expertise in the field
- Editors who have asked to be kept informed
The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions—for example, if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it. Do not send notices to too many users, and do not send messages to users who have asked not to receive them.
Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief—the user can always find out more by clicking on the link to the discussion. Do not use a bot to send messages to multiple pages. The {{Please see}} template may help in notifying people in a quick, simple, and neutral manner.
Note: It is good practice to leave a note at the discussion itself about notifications which have been made, particularly if made to individual users. (there's still a table in that guideline section, please have a look)
(again, I can provide you with diffs if needed that I remarked this to you on previous occasions if that would be necessary)
I think it's time for a somewhat more official warning:
 | Please don't go forum-shopping with your ideas as you did from Wikipedia talk:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality#Defining to Wikipedia talk:Categorization#Proposed change. The proper way to invite additional contributors to a discussion, once started are explained in the policies/guidelines above, e.g. from the quoted policy "...in that case it is normally best to give links to show where else you have raised the question" |
--Francis Schonken (talk) 06:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to provide a link but forgot to - sorry. Anyway it's a different discussion, those are changes I'd been planning in proposing for several months so your edit just reminded me we needed to clarify the language in the cat guideline. Moving that other discussion to LGBT project wasn't forum shopping by any stretch of the imagination.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:25, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- I still don't see a link from the second discussion to the first. "I was thinking of the second discussion earlier" is not an excuse by a long stretch. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:28, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think you made the link already! :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Then check again... --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think you made the link already! :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I still don't see a link from the second discussion to the first. "I was thinking of the second discussion earlier" is not an excuse by a long stretch. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:28, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to provide a link but forgot to - sorry. Anyway it's a different discussion, those are changes I'd been planning in proposing for several months so your edit just reminded me we needed to clarify the language in the cat guideline. Moving that other discussion to LGBT project wasn't forum shopping by any stretch of the imagination.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:25, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Ad hominem section titles
Please avoid "ad hominem" section titles, as you did here [1] --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- fair enough. Sorry about that.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:09, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
July 2014
{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Bbb23 (talk) 11:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Obiwankenobi (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
5 days? Seriously? I made 2 reverts, was not making any further reverts, and was already discussing on talk page. Thus there was no ongoing edit war in need of stopping. I think this is excessive and seems punitive vs preventative, as discussion was ongoing and I wasn't reverting further. I think this block should be adjusted to 24 hours to allow a cooling down period, and I will commit to holding to 1RR on that guideline going forward and hope you will hold Francis to the same commitment. Last time I was blocked it was suggested by @BrownHairedGirl: that 3 reverts was too much, which is why I changed my behavior - 1) Not blanket reverting, but adjusting the text added by Francis to be in line with a version I agreed with 2) Not reverting more than twice. I have thus tried to make adjustments to my behavior but I was blocked nonetheless after only two reverts when discussion was ongoing on the talk page. I think 5 days is excessive punishment, and while I acknowledge that perhaps my second revert was perhaps too much, I don't think 5 days is balanced punishment for that single revert.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:35, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Decline reason:
When an editor resumes the same behavior that they'd be recently blocked for, it's standard practice to issue progressively longer blocks. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
You made two reverts today and you made another revert two days ago. However, the block and the duration of the block are because you resumed edit warring after your last block of 36 hours for edit warring the same page. And this isn't an article; this is a Wikipedia guideline that you and the other editor are making your own private battleground. Discussion on the talk page is good but only if you don't revert at the same time. Discussion doesn't give you license to revert. Five days was relatively lenient given the circumstances. And you still don't see anything wrong with your behavior? That's disappointing.--Bbb23 (talk) 11:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Bbb23, I'm confused. Am I not allowed to revert at all? Only one revert? 2? I have purposefully stayed away from 3 reverts here and am trying to hold myself to no more than two, but if I nonetheless get blocked for 2 reverts what's the point? There is no 1RR applied to these pages. And no, I don't think 2 reverts is excessive - especially if those reverts are mostly removing things ADDED without discussion to this guideline. We should have a BLP-like exception here for policy pages, that undiscussed insertions can be removed by good faith editors without fear of being blocked. I think 5 days is way overblown - as the edit warring had already stopped! I had made 2 reverts and wasn't going to make another and had already started discussion after the first revert. I have tried to learn since my last block but I had no idea 2 reverts would land me a block of 5 days. Would I also have been blocked for one revert? I just ask you to consider if you weren't a bit fast on the trigger here, and if you'd let things continue you would have seen if it continued - it was finished from my perspective.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:07, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Once you are blocked for edit warring on a page, your subsequent reversions are held to a higher degree of scrutiny because you are repeating your behavior. Also, edit warring on a guideline or policy is serious. Your block was recent, and yet you continue. How am I supposed to know that you weren't going to make any more reverts after the second one? If you acknowledge that you started discussion after the first revert, then why did you make the second revert? I don't want to punish you for your behavior, but you are an experienced editor, and it doesn't require much to step back and realize that your behavior is disruptive. And, even now, although I think you are sincere, you show little or no insight into the problem. I'm not sure why that is, actually.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:24, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- the topic I was reverting was totally different than the one I was blocked for previously. I didn't know any edit whatsoever to this page in the future would have have higher scrutiny. Again, I honestly don't think 2 reverts is disruptive. What is disruptive IMHO is Francis' behavior of making undiscussed changes to guidelines and edit warring them in after he is reverted. I think if you make a bold change and are reverted you should discuss. I also tried to find compromises - eg instead of just reverting Francis' undiscussed changes, in some cases I just made tweaks that brought his changes into consensus with me at least, so I've tried to find a compromise path. Again, in what way are 2 reverts disruptive? As I said I'm staying away from 3 reverts on purpose and am engaging as always on the talk page. Would even 1 revert have been disruptive? Finally I think 5 days is incredibly aggressive especially for the person who was removing undiscussed material from a guideline. Could I have not made the second revert? Yes, and maybe that would have been less disruptive, so for that second revert I apologize, but I need some better guidance here - am I never allowed to revert twice on this page again? Am I allowed to revert once? Can I disuss a revert, explain my reasoning, and re-revert once more after discussion has started? The 3rr rule is useful and by staying to 2 reverts I hoped to avoid accusations of edit warring by staying far from 3rr, and yet, here I am with 5 days. I just think it's excessive. Blocks are supposed to be preventative, and yet while I've stated very clearly that I had ceased reverting and discussion was ongoing you don't seem willing to reconsider the length of the block. What could I say to change your mind?-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:41, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Your questions themselves concern me. You want a precise roadmap as to what's acceptable and what isn't in the guise of guidance. I've pretty much said my piece. Perhaps another administrator who reviews your unblock request and, I assume, reads this discussion, will say something that resonates with you.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- yes, I do need more guidance as to how to avoid being blocked. You said
Five days was relatively lenient given the circumstances.
which suggests this is a punishment. After I made my first change 2 days ago @Sillyfolkboy: actually thanked me. I will commit to no more than 1RR on this page if you would reconsider the length of the block and bring it down to 24 hours for example. Sillyfolkboy do you have any thoughts or comments on these edits?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)- I wasn't going to comment anymore, but ... Escalating durations for the same behavior is common; it doesn't imply punishment. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't entitle you to edit-war. If you think the other editor is disruptively reverting against consensus, then you raise that problem in the appropriate forum - you don't revert.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:12, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I did raise the problem, on the talk page, which seems the first best place, and I had stopped reverting. Additionally, I'm proposing to hold to a 1RR on that page. What else can I do to help you reconsider the length of the block?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- 1RR, and then go to the talk page to seek agreement, is an excellent way to engage in a disagreement. It would be a very good thing if OBK committed to it, and he should be rewarded for doing so. Also, consider WP:HEC. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm happy to commit to 1RR for the WP:Categorization of people page. It would be great if @Francis Schonken: would consider agreeing to the same given his tendency to make bold edits on that page.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- 1RR, and then go to the talk page to seek agreement, is an excellent way to engage in a disagreement. It would be a very good thing if OBK committed to it, and he should be rewarded for doing so. Also, consider WP:HEC. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I did raise the problem, on the talk page, which seems the first best place, and I had stopped reverting. Additionally, I'm proposing to hold to a 1RR on that page. What else can I do to help you reconsider the length of the block?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I wasn't going to comment anymore, but ... Escalating durations for the same behavior is common; it doesn't imply punishment. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't entitle you to edit-war. If you think the other editor is disruptively reverting against consensus, then you raise that problem in the appropriate forum - you don't revert.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:12, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- yes, I do need more guidance as to how to avoid being blocked. You said
- Your questions themselves concern me. You want a precise roadmap as to what's acceptable and what isn't in the guise of guidance. I've pretty much said my piece. Perhaps another administrator who reviews your unblock request and, I assume, reads this discussion, will say something that resonates with you.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- the topic I was reverting was totally different than the one I was blocked for previously. I didn't know any edit whatsoever to this page in the future would have have higher scrutiny. Again, I honestly don't think 2 reverts is disruptive. What is disruptive IMHO is Francis' behavior of making undiscussed changes to guidelines and edit warring them in after he is reverted. I think if you make a bold change and are reverted you should discuss. I also tried to find compromises - eg instead of just reverting Francis' undiscussed changes, in some cases I just made tweaks that brought his changes into consensus with me at least, so I've tried to find a compromise path. Again, in what way are 2 reverts disruptive? As I said I'm staying away from 3 reverts on purpose and am engaging as always on the talk page. Would even 1 revert have been disruptive? Finally I think 5 days is incredibly aggressive especially for the person who was removing undiscussed material from a guideline. Could I have not made the second revert? Yes, and maybe that would have been less disruptive, so for that second revert I apologize, but I need some better guidance here - am I never allowed to revert twice on this page again? Am I allowed to revert once? Can I disuss a revert, explain my reasoning, and re-revert once more after discussion has started? The 3rr rule is useful and by staying to 2 reverts I hoped to avoid accusations of edit warring by staying far from 3rr, and yet, here I am with 5 days. I just think it's excessive. Blocks are supposed to be preventative, and yet while I've stated very clearly that I had ceased reverting and discussion was ongoing you don't seem willing to reconsider the length of the block. What could I say to change your mind?-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:41, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Once you are blocked for edit warring on a page, your subsequent reversions are held to a higher degree of scrutiny because you are repeating your behavior. Also, edit warring on a guideline or policy is serious. Your block was recent, and yet you continue. How am I supposed to know that you weren't going to make any more reverts after the second one? If you acknowledge that you started discussion after the first revert, then why did you make the second revert? I don't want to punish you for your behavior, but you are an experienced editor, and it doesn't require much to step back and realize that your behavior is disruptive. And, even now, although I think you are sincere, you show little or no insight into the problem. I'm not sure why that is, actually.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:24, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- 'question to @Ohnoitsjamie:: You said
When an editor resumes the same behavior that they'd be recently blocked for, it's standard practice to issue progressively longer blocks.
However, in this case my behavior has been DIFFERENT than the last time, as I noted in my unblock request. Instead of reverting the multiple undiscussed additions Francis made to the guideline, I instead made tweaks to align his changes so that they were acceptable - this is exactly the behavior that is suggested in Wikipedia:Revert_only_when_necessary for example - I was attempting to find compromise wording. I also explained my changes in the edit summary in detail. When Francis undid my change, I reverted and explained further that his additions were undiscussed and I didn't agree with them, and proposed keeping my compromise version or just reverting back to the pre-dispute version. I also immediately opened up a talk page section and started discussion. He just reverted w/o comment, so I reverted again and continued the discussion since I don't think novel additions to a guideline should stand if they are disputed. I've already noted that the second revert went too far, but this was still very far from a violation of 3RR and was only a very lightweight edit war, accordingly a 5 day block seems excessively punitive. As noted above, I'm proposing to hold to 1RR on that guideline going forward - is there anything else I can do or say to help you reconsider the length of the block? I feel like I'm being punished after I had specifically worked to adopt my behavior in the edits here by staying far from 4 reverts.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:42, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- By "same" I mean "same type of behavior," not "exactly the same reverts." Edit warring not only includes flat-out reverts, but includes WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality editing as well. As Bbb23 mentioned, if you are blocked for edit warring, it's in your best interest to hold your edits to a higher level of scrutiny. When in doubt, propose your changes on the talk page first and get some measure of consensus. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand it's not about the same reverts - but as I explained above, I have indeed changed my behavior. I don't see a battleground here either, it confuses me that you use that term. To recap, I stopped blanket reverting of Francis' undiscussed/no consensus changes, and instead tweaked his changes towards a version I agreed with, and am now committing to following 1RR on that guideline. I fail to see how 5 days in the penalty box will help prevent further disruption given those commitments.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- By "same" I mean "same type of behavior," not "exactly the same reverts." Edit warring not only includes flat-out reverts, but includes WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality editing as well. As Bbb23 mentioned, if you are blocked for edit warring, it's in your best interest to hold your edits to a higher level of scrutiny. When in doubt, propose your changes on the talk page first and get some measure of consensus. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
re: talkpage
- Umm, Obi, as a good faith reminder, and since you've just been blocked for editing behavior regarding categorization of people, you might not want to try to edit or influence discussions about categorization of people by proxy on your talk page. I'm not sure if OhNoitsJamie, Bbb23 or others would see it as a form of WP:BLOCK EVASION, but I'm sure you can see how it could arguably be seen as that. Probably bettter to stop digging and all that. __ E L A Q U E A T E 20:46, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia:Protection_policy#Blocked_users, talk page access is permitted for editors to contact a blocked editor. I don't see any policy issue with discussing issues re: ongoing discussions I was involved in with other editors here - if you can point to the relevant policy please let me know. I'm not engaging in discussions re: the page I was blocked for (the discussions, if they implicated a policy, would implicate WP:EGRS, nor am I asking editors to make specific edits on my behalf. In the case above with @Nigel Pap:, I was simply answering a question that was posed to me. The case below, which I wrote before your post, is about literature.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Because I was pinged by Elaqueate, I'll comment very briefly. Regardless of whether I like what you're doing, I think the consensus generally is it's not prohibited by policy. Perhaps it'll help you get more used to discussion on talk pages rather than reversions and edit summaries. I must say, though, that for a blocked editor you're a pretty busy guy. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 21:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- well, you caught me during a busy period, and I was involved in a number of discussions, I'm going on vacation at the end of the week, so your block was, shall we say, ill-timed :). Since I have you here, I do wish you'd reconsider shortening the time. 5 days for 2 reverts seems really heavy. Is there anything I can say/do to change your mind?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sounds like the block and the beginning of your vacation will overlap. I think you should enjoy your vacation, forget about categories, blocks, and all things related to Wikipedia.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, there is still unfinished business and discussions I'd like to respond to... I'm looking for a compromise position here. Is there any way you'd reconsider? I've admitted the second revert was bad, and committed to 1RR on that category guideline. What else am I missing?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:38, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sounds like the block and the beginning of your vacation will overlap. I think you should enjoy your vacation, forget about categories, blocks, and all things related to Wikipedia.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- well, you caught me during a busy period, and I was involved in a number of discussions, I'm going on vacation at the end of the week, so your block was, shall we say, ill-timed :). Since I have you here, I do wish you'd reconsider shortening the time. 5 days for 2 reverts seems really heavy. Is there anything I can say/do to change your mind?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Because I was pinged by Elaqueate, I'll comment very briefly. Regardless of whether I like what you're doing, I think the consensus generally is it's not prohibited by policy. Perhaps it'll help you get more used to discussion on talk pages rather than reversions and edit summaries. I must say, though, that for a blocked editor you're a pretty busy guy. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 21:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia:Protection_policy#Blocked_users, talk page access is permitted for editors to contact a blocked editor. I don't see any policy issue with discussing issues re: ongoing discussions I was involved in with other editors here - if you can point to the relevant policy please let me know. I'm not engaging in discussions re: the page I was blocked for (the discussions, if they implicated a policy, would implicate WP:EGRS, nor am I asking editors to make specific edits on my behalf. In the case above with @Nigel Pap:, I was simply answering a question that was posed to me. The case below, which I wrote before your post, is about literature.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Ping Postdlf
@Postdlf: I'm currently in the penalty box but wanted to respond to your last comment. You said "Otherwise, category names should be taken by their literal and plain meaning and an article should be included so long as the fact or facts the category represents are verifiable, whether together or independently." But that's general practice now, and I'm not aware of any mass confusion on that point such that further clarification is necessary." I agree with this point, and the change I suggested was to make this explicit. While I agree there isn't mass confusion in this point, some recent edits to WP:EGRS have been proposed that would apply the defining standard to such intersection categories, and the defining language is mum on what to do with intersections. For example it was argued that an openly gay man who is a writer and politician would not necessarily be placed in the gay + writer and gay + politician category unless each such intersection could be proven to be defining. I disagreed and started that discussion at the category page to clarify the meaning of defining for all such intersection categories, a clarification which goes far beyond the particulars of EGRS+topic. For example I think it would be absurd to exclude a women from a women's poets category and keep her only in the neutral poets category if it could not be established that she was notable as a 'woman poet'. The only exception I can think of is things like political philosophy or religion - are all catholic writers also catholic politicians? (Not even sure such cats exist) it seems the difference is intrinsic features vs self-selected ones, but it's a bit fuzzy.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
re: Nigel Pap
I'm blocked so can only respond here, @Nigel Pap: pinging Nigel, you said Are you saying that the fictional women would be treated unfairly by being "segregated", but that women (real women) should be split off in the category that contains non-fictional people?
No, what I'm saying is more subtle. The final rung rule in WP:EGRS exists to prevent gendered categories that, by their very nature and structure, are more likely to ghettoize - e.g. leave women for example in only a gendered category. When there are no diffusing siblings, as is the case here for the fictional categories, then the Fictional women engineers category ends up being a final rung of Category:Fictional engineers, since most of the contents are likely to remain in the parent (the existing diffusing siblings are not sufficient to empty the parent), and it should thus be deleted (or, really merged up to the neutral parent and then deleted) as it violates that guideline. The "real" women engineers category is fine, since it has neutral diffusing siblings such as Category:Engineers_by_nationality, Category:Engineers_by_specialty, Category:19th-century_engineers, etc, so bios are much less likely to be segregated only in the "women" category (you'll notice the parent, Category:Engineers is mostly empty of biographies, as it should be.) This is the same reason why Category:Women historians is a valid category while Category:Women flight attendants would not be (since Category:Flight attendants cannot be otherwise diffused).--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- You say that the real women engineers are "fine" because there are "neutral diffusing siblings" but that ignores the larger issue at play here. Why does a gendered category exist at all? It is 2014. It is no longer unusual for a woman to be an engineer. Yet, here is Wikipedia with people like you defending having a separate category for female engineers based on the fact that it was at one time remarkable for a woman to hold such a position. I've just read WP:EGRS and it does not seem to agree with any of the arguments I have seen you make. With reference to that policy, what is the justification for separating women engineers? Nigel Pap (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I guess that's a much larger question Nigel. I was responding to your specific question re: fictional women engineers. If you want to know why "Women engineers" is permitted as a category, WP:EGRS says a gendered category can be created when gender has a special relation to the subject. So, is "women engineers" a topic of special study? We have societies committees news stories scholarly studies and even Category:Women's_engineering_colleges_in_India and so on and so forth, so yes, even in 2014, even if it's becoming more normal for women to enter engineering, there is still a gender gap and still a ton of ink spilled on the topic. Also, please don't say "people like you" - it's offensive - as if you're grouping me with some unnamed group of nasty people. The gendered categories we have, and there are around 6000 for women, and roughly the same for men, have been forged through consensus. I myself have nominated and argued for the deletion of dozens of women's categories - more than most here! But I have also defended and populated and deghettoized dozens of other gendered categories - more than most here! My north star is WP:EGRS and WP:NPOV - I'm not "for" gendered categories and I'm not "against" them, I think if they are unlikely to "ghettoize" and the topic is well studied, they are reasonable and should be not only kept but fully populated. If the topic is not well studied, or if the structure makes them likely to ghettoize, then, the whole category should be deleted. I think it's actually a very good sign that I'm on the side of neutrality if I'm simultaneously criticized for deleting such categories and at the same time criticized for defending them. I remember during CategoryGate (which you may or may not have missed) a ton of outsiders were outraged that wikipedia had a separate category for American women novelists - and yet few of them questioned why colleges and libraries and amazon and the library of congress have separate bookshelves and awards and categories and classes and degrees for women's literature - wikipedia simply reflects our broader society, and in our current society, there are a great many topics where women + X is a topic that is studied separately from X (If you want to really watch blood boil, try suggesting that there might also be topics of men + X, that really fires people up). You say we are "separating women engineers", but if the articles are properly categorized, the women will not be separate - in wikipedia a book can be on multiple shelves. So a given women engineer will be in the Category:Women engineers category but also in Category:American engineers or whatever, e.g. she will be on the same shelf as her male peers - that's what "deghettoization" means. I'm opposed to any system whereby women would only be in a women-category (with the exception of sports/actresses, which are fully split by both genders, but that's a different topic) - but actually DOING this correctly is rather tricky. You may want to read an essay I wrote, or a draft essay at User:Obiwankenobi/On_categories which gets a bit technical but goes into the details of how to detect ghettoization, and how to fix it (hint: the solution is rarely "stick it in the parent").--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:50, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- You used the "scholarly study" argument in another discussion, but it does not seem to agree with either the text or implication of WP:EGRS. What is the special relationship of gender to engineering? Do female engineers perform a different role than male engineers? Do women who study engineering get different training and graduate with a different degree? Are there separate professional governing bodies for male engineers and female engineers? Are there different professional standards for male engineers and female engineers? Nigel Pap (talk) 22:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- EGRS says "As another example, a female heads of government category is valid as a topic of special encyclopedic interest, though it does not need to be balanced directly against a "Male heads of government" category, as historically the vast majority of political leaders have been male." The language I hew to is thus "topic of special encyclopedic interest"; I also consider "special relationship of gender" to hold if reliable sources have discussed the relationship of gender to the job. If there is scholarly research, professional societies, news articles, etc around the topic, then a gendered category can be created (provided it doesn't violate other rules like final-rung) - another criteria is whether women have traditionally been excluded from that particular job for example - so while a fair bit has probably been written about women +nursing and women+feminism, since women have dominated these fields, we have instead Category:Male nurses and Category:Male feminists. The final rung rule also prevents us from having things like "African-American lesbian writers of Cuban descent", even if someone once wrote a scholarly article on same. We used the scholarly sources argument to defend categories like Category:Male writers, as people now study writing by men as a special topic (as opposed to an "ungendered" look at such writing.) As to your other points, no, I don't think women engineers have different training/degrees/standards, the actual practice of engineering is the same. If it were different - like it is in some sports for example, where men/women compete in different leagues, play sports with different sets of rules, etc. - then we would gender separate the whole category, which isn't the case here. The arguments you make (e.g. women don't perform the job of engineering differently than men) have been made before by others, but they usually haven't gained consensus in terms of actually deleting such categories. One thing that is true is that WP:EGRS does not reflect well the full extent of reasons people have used to keep and delete such categories, so the whole thing needs to be fixed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- The first point of that policy says "Do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic". You are reading between the lines of the policy to infer something that is negated elsewhere in the policy. I don't think most people would interpret the phrase "special relationship of gender" to mean anything like what you are saying. Female heads of state may still be rare (although less and less so) but female engineers are not. "Special encyclopedic interest" seems like just another red herring. I'm sure there are many people who vote to keep or delete categories for reasons other than what the policy says, but that appears to be a large part of the problem here. Nigel Pap (talk) 00:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nigel I'm not sure how long you've been here so sorry if I'm explaining things you already know. WP is not a bureaucracy, and policies and guidelines live in a delicate area between being normative and reflective of practice,but ultimately consensus holds sway. In other words, if thousands of editors do X and the policy says do Y, perhaps the policy needs to be updated to reflect practice. Sometimes, however, it goes the opposite way - so even if thousands of editors ghettoize women by leaving them out of neutral cats, we still enforce the policy of no ghettoization, similarly we enforce things like BLP. So for gendered cats, regardless of what is written in the policy or your particular interpretations of same, the ultimate testing ground is consensus - you can try nominating Category:Women in engineering for deletion and see what happens. I will argue for it to be kept for the reasons I gave above, and I'm 99% sure that such an attempt would fail miserably, as the women historians nom is likely to. I have nominated a number of cats for deletion that I felt clearly violated our guidance, yet they were kept, and I have tried to defend categories that were supported by our guidance, and yet they were deleted. What can one do? Consensus is the one ring to rule them all. In any case, the 'rarity' of a person in a field is only one reason to have a separate category, women writers are hardly rare and yet we have a massive category tree for them which has survived numerous attempts at deletion and the most famous case of American women novelists was kept by very strong consensus, perhaps the largest number of participants at CFD ever. Perhaps once I'm out of the penalty box we can work on better language for WP:EGRS that reflects consensus reasons to keep or delete such categories.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Obi-Wan Kenobi, you seem to be minimizing your role in this. What can one do? For a start, you could stop directing people to a policy that doesn't say what you suggest it does. For another, you could stop using specious arguments like "special encyclopedic interest" to justify having categories for only one gender where none are necessary or helpful. I would be happy to work with you if I thought we were working towards the same goal, but I sense that you are too invested in the status quo. Nigel Pap (talk) 03:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- well, I like to think that I've helped shape the status quo, so, you may be right. But when I started working on gender and categorization we had 6000 women categories, and now we probaby have 6100. I didn't start the fire, these categories are very long established. I've tried to work on clarifying the guidelines in terms of when they can exist and when not, especially around ghettoization (which wasn't a big deal until category gate came along). Please don't call my argument specious, fwiw - you're being insulting again - it's a perfectly reasonable argument and has been used in a number of debates by others. You seem to have a different and much more restrictive standard whereby fictional girl detectives must remain but women engineers and women historians must be deleted. I'm afraid that's not aligned with general consensus here, and while you are welcome to try you will likely fail. I've put as I noted a number of gender or ethnic or LGBT or religion categories on the chopping block and defended a number of others as well, so I have a reasonable sense of where the line is, and you are far away from that line. You can accept that and get on with other edits or try to convince others that you're right by getting them to agree to delete categories you don't like and establish a new consensus. With the current crop of editors I don't think you'll succeed. But I've been lambasted for deleting women's cats and now you're lambasting me for protecting them. Which means I'm probably right in the neutral zone where I should be.-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Girl detective" is a well established fiction genre (as is "boy detective"). It is categorizing an actual genre as opposed to simply having Category:Fictional female detectives. Female engineers are real people who are engineers. There is no good reason to have gendered categories. To be frank, I think that you are being disingenuous when you ask such questions or offer shifting arguments in response to my questions. Nigel Pap (talk) 14:46, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know why you are being so hostile to me, calling me disingenuous, etc. I'm not offering shifting arguments either. You asked why I think some gendered categories should be kept, and I told you in great detail. You disagreed with the reasoning but it doesn't mean I'm disingenuous.
Female engineers are real people who are engineers
Yes, but so what? How does having a category of female engineers suggest otherwise? The argument "female X are just human X who happen to be female" could be used to delete every single one of our several thousand women-x categories.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)- I'm sorry if my bluntness reads as hostility, but I am sure you already know the answer to "So what?". Thanks for the discussion. Nigel Pap (talk) 16:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Actually I don't. During categoryGate, one of the big issues that caused offense was the slotting of women novelists into their own category and not having them be in the "main" category (thus suggesting they weren't really novelists). This is fixed by deghettoization, e.g. placing them in both neutral and gendered categories. This has broad acceptance by the community as a solution. Your arguments seem to be leaning towards deleting the vast majority of the Category:Women by occupation tree, but if they are properly deghettoized, I still don't understand why you find these categories problematic in the main (some particular categories, I agree, should go, but should we delete Category:Women writers and Category:Female astronauts and Category:Women architects and Category:Women judges and so on and so forth? I'm just trying to understand the reason behind what you've stated above, and what your criteria would be for when a category can exist and when it should be deleted.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic" seems to me like a pretty good rule to follow. Do you really not understand why some people might take issue with the idea that there are "neutral and gendered categories" which actually means there is a separate category only for women? Do the categories you ask about meet the first rule of WP:EGRS? Nigel Pap (talk) 16:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, if reliable sources discuss the intersection of gender with jobs like writing, being an astronaut, being an architect, or being a judge, then yes, we might consider that gender+job is a studied topic. This is much more often studied for women than men, but there are cases where men+job is specifically studied. So, yes, I think they all meet that first rule. As long as everyone is in the neutral categories, I fail to see how a separate list of just women, or african americans, or gay people, etc is necessarily a bad thing, provided reliable sources talk about them as a group. You seem to be suggesting that such categories should only be created when gender or ethnicity or sexuality actually changes how the job is performed (such as difference between male and female models, who model different clothes and are hired for different reasons, or actors/actresses who take different roles for example) - but that's not a restriction we have. Categories are for navigation, and apparently people like to use such categories to find "Who are all of the African-American classical musicians" or "Who are all of the female astronauts", etc. I'm not asking why others out in the world may dislike these categories, I'm wondering why, provided they are properly deghettoized, you in particular find them problematic. We have List_of_female_poets and List_of_female_explorers_and_travelers and these lists reflect real-world anthologies and lists and studies done by reliable sources. Thus, since we reflect reliable sources, if such sources say "It is worth building a list of women authors" or if the library of congress says "We should have a category classification for women writers", then why should wikipedia be different?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic" seems to me like a pretty good rule to follow. Do you really not understand why some people might take issue with the idea that there are "neutral and gendered categories" which actually means there is a separate category only for women? Do the categories you ask about meet the first rule of WP:EGRS? Nigel Pap (talk) 16:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Actually I don't. During categoryGate, one of the big issues that caused offense was the slotting of women novelists into their own category and not having them be in the "main" category (thus suggesting they weren't really novelists). This is fixed by deghettoization, e.g. placing them in both neutral and gendered categories. This has broad acceptance by the community as a solution. Your arguments seem to be leaning towards deleting the vast majority of the Category:Women by occupation tree, but if they are properly deghettoized, I still don't understand why you find these categories problematic in the main (some particular categories, I agree, should go, but should we delete Category:Women writers and Category:Female astronauts and Category:Women architects and Category:Women judges and so on and so forth? I'm just trying to understand the reason behind what you've stated above, and what your criteria would be for when a category can exist and when it should be deleted.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if my bluntness reads as hostility, but I am sure you already know the answer to "So what?". Thanks for the discussion. Nigel Pap (talk) 16:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know why you are being so hostile to me, calling me disingenuous, etc. I'm not offering shifting arguments either. You asked why I think some gendered categories should be kept, and I told you in great detail. You disagreed with the reasoning but it doesn't mean I'm disingenuous.
- "Girl detective" is a well established fiction genre (as is "boy detective"). It is categorizing an actual genre as opposed to simply having Category:Fictional female detectives. Female engineers are real people who are engineers. There is no good reason to have gendered categories. To be frank, I think that you are being disingenuous when you ask such questions or offer shifting arguments in response to my questions. Nigel Pap (talk) 14:46, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- well, I like to think that I've helped shape the status quo, so, you may be right. But when I started working on gender and categorization we had 6000 women categories, and now we probaby have 6100. I didn't start the fire, these categories are very long established. I've tried to work on clarifying the guidelines in terms of when they can exist and when not, especially around ghettoization (which wasn't a big deal until category gate came along). Please don't call my argument specious, fwiw - you're being insulting again - it's a perfectly reasonable argument and has been used in a number of debates by others. You seem to have a different and much more restrictive standard whereby fictional girl detectives must remain but women engineers and women historians must be deleted. I'm afraid that's not aligned with general consensus here, and while you are welcome to try you will likely fail. I've put as I noted a number of gender or ethnic or LGBT or religion categories on the chopping block and defended a number of others as well, so I have a reasonable sense of where the line is, and you are far away from that line. You can accept that and get on with other edits or try to convince others that you're right by getting them to agree to delete categories you don't like and establish a new consensus. With the current crop of editors I don't think you'll succeed. But I've been lambasted for deleting women's cats and now you're lambasting me for protecting them. Which means I'm probably right in the neutral zone where I should be.-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Obi-Wan Kenobi, you seem to be minimizing your role in this. What can one do? For a start, you could stop directing people to a policy that doesn't say what you suggest it does. For another, you could stop using specious arguments like "special encyclopedic interest" to justify having categories for only one gender where none are necessary or helpful. I would be happy to work with you if I thought we were working towards the same goal, but I sense that you are too invested in the status quo. Nigel Pap (talk) 03:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nigel I'm not sure how long you've been here so sorry if I'm explaining things you already know. WP is not a bureaucracy, and policies and guidelines live in a delicate area between being normative and reflective of practice,but ultimately consensus holds sway. In other words, if thousands of editors do X and the policy says do Y, perhaps the policy needs to be updated to reflect practice. Sometimes, however, it goes the opposite way - so even if thousands of editors ghettoize women by leaving them out of neutral cats, we still enforce the policy of no ghettoization, similarly we enforce things like BLP. So for gendered cats, regardless of what is written in the policy or your particular interpretations of same, the ultimate testing ground is consensus - you can try nominating Category:Women in engineering for deletion and see what happens. I will argue for it to be kept for the reasons I gave above, and I'm 99% sure that such an attempt would fail miserably, as the women historians nom is likely to. I have nominated a number of cats for deletion that I felt clearly violated our guidance, yet they were kept, and I have tried to defend categories that were supported by our guidance, and yet they were deleted. What can one do? Consensus is the one ring to rule them all. In any case, the 'rarity' of a person in a field is only one reason to have a separate category, women writers are hardly rare and yet we have a massive category tree for them which has survived numerous attempts at deletion and the most famous case of American women novelists was kept by very strong consensus, perhaps the largest number of participants at CFD ever. Perhaps once I'm out of the penalty box we can work on better language for WP:EGRS that reflects consensus reasons to keep or delete such categories.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- The first point of that policy says "Do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic". You are reading between the lines of the policy to infer something that is negated elsewhere in the policy. I don't think most people would interpret the phrase "special relationship of gender" to mean anything like what you are saying. Female heads of state may still be rare (although less and less so) but female engineers are not. "Special encyclopedic interest" seems like just another red herring. I'm sure there are many people who vote to keep or delete categories for reasons other than what the policy says, but that appears to be a large part of the problem here. Nigel Pap (talk) 00:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- EGRS says "As another example, a female heads of government category is valid as a topic of special encyclopedic interest, though it does not need to be balanced directly against a "Male heads of government" category, as historically the vast majority of political leaders have been male." The language I hew to is thus "topic of special encyclopedic interest"; I also consider "special relationship of gender" to hold if reliable sources have discussed the relationship of gender to the job. If there is scholarly research, professional societies, news articles, etc around the topic, then a gendered category can be created (provided it doesn't violate other rules like final-rung) - another criteria is whether women have traditionally been excluded from that particular job for example - so while a fair bit has probably been written about women +nursing and women+feminism, since women have dominated these fields, we have instead Category:Male nurses and Category:Male feminists. The final rung rule also prevents us from having things like "African-American lesbian writers of Cuban descent", even if someone once wrote a scholarly article on same. We used the scholarly sources argument to defend categories like Category:Male writers, as people now study writing by men as a special topic (as opposed to an "ungendered" look at such writing.) As to your other points, no, I don't think women engineers have different training/degrees/standards, the actual practice of engineering is the same. If it were different - like it is in some sports for example, where men/women compete in different leagues, play sports with different sets of rules, etc. - then we would gender separate the whole category, which isn't the case here. The arguments you make (e.g. women don't perform the job of engineering differently than men) have been made before by others, but they usually haven't gained consensus in terms of actually deleting such categories. One thing that is true is that WP:EGRS does not reflect well the full extent of reasons people have used to keep and delete such categories, so the whole thing needs to be fixed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- You used the "scholarly study" argument in another discussion, but it does not seem to agree with either the text or implication of WP:EGRS. What is the special relationship of gender to engineering? Do female engineers perform a different role than male engineers? Do women who study engineering get different training and graduate with a different degree? Are there separate professional governing bodies for male engineers and female engineers? Are there different professional standards for male engineers and female engineers? Nigel Pap (talk) 22:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I guess that's a much larger question Nigel. I was responding to your specific question re: fictional women engineers. If you want to know why "Women engineers" is permitted as a category, WP:EGRS says a gendered category can be created when gender has a special relation to the subject. So, is "women engineers" a topic of special study? We have societies committees news stories scholarly studies and even Category:Women's_engineering_colleges_in_India and so on and so forth, so yes, even in 2014, even if it's becoming more normal for women to enter engineering, there is still a gender gap and still a ton of ink spilled on the topic. Also, please don't say "people like you" - it's offensive - as if you're grouping me with some unnamed group of nasty people. The gendered categories we have, and there are around 6000 for women, and roughly the same for men, have been forged through consensus. I myself have nominated and argued for the deletion of dozens of women's categories - more than most here! But I have also defended and populated and deghettoized dozens of other gendered categories - more than most here! My north star is WP:EGRS and WP:NPOV - I'm not "for" gendered categories and I'm not "against" them, I think if they are unlikely to "ghettoize" and the topic is well studied, they are reasonable and should be not only kept but fully populated. If the topic is not well studied, or if the structure makes them likely to ghettoize, then, the whole category should be deleted. I think it's actually a very good sign that I'm on the side of neutrality if I'm simultaneously criticized for deleting such categories and at the same time criticized for defending them. I remember during CategoryGate (which you may or may not have missed) a ton of outsiders were outraged that wikipedia had a separate category for American women novelists - and yet few of them questioned why colleges and libraries and amazon and the library of congress have separate bookshelves and awards and categories and classes and degrees for women's literature - wikipedia simply reflects our broader society, and in our current society, there are a great many topics where women + X is a topic that is studied separately from X (If you want to really watch blood boil, try suggesting that there might also be topics of men + X, that really fires people up). You say we are "separating women engineers", but if the articles are properly categorized, the women will not be separate - in wikipedia a book can be on multiple shelves. So a given women engineer will be in the Category:Women engineers category but also in Category:American engineers or whatever, e.g. she will be on the same shelf as her male peers - that's what "deghettoization" means. I'm opposed to any system whereby women would only be in a women-category (with the exception of sports/actresses, which are fully split by both genders, but that's a different topic) - but actually DOING this correctly is rather tricky. You may want to read an essay I wrote, or a draft essay at User:Obiwankenobi/On_categories which gets a bit technical but goes into the details of how to detect ghettoization, and how to fix it (hint: the solution is rarely "stick it in the parent").--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:50, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- another question @Nigel Pap: - why do you not like some of these categories? Why do you think Category:Women in engineering is a bad idea for example?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:54, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I have no issue with a category about women in engineering. There is a difference between the subject of women in a profession and the women in that profession. Female engineers do not belong in that category for reasons which I have discussed above. Nigel Pap (talk) 14:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Because, they have the same jobs and degrees and their work is equivalent? Is that the reasoning?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I have no issue with a category about women in engineering. There is a difference between the subject of women in a profession and the women in that profession. Female engineers do not belong in that category for reasons which I have discussed above. Nigel Pap (talk) 14:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Women in history
@Cgingold: I must admit I'm puzzled by your recent reverts. Generally we try to separate biographical categories from topical ones. More importantly, when we do have biographical categories, they are almost invariably the subset of topical categories. You've just added two topical categories + a random one about orchestras to women in history, which is otherwise full of biographical categories. While I agree it could remain as a subcat of women, the reversal of parent child makes no sense and the history of women in the Ukraine being alongside biographical subcats makes no sense now. I do note that the women in history cat itself should likely be purged of articles and kept as strictly biographies, the rest should be out in women's history where it fits fine. Care to explain? Thanks --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
IEG on category system research
Hi. You had endorsed my IEG proposal on researching the category system on en:WP, and offered to chat about the project, and to get involved. I am finally getting started on the project in earnest now. It would be great to talk more about it. I see you are taking a break from WP at the moment. Give a holler when you are back. Libcub (talk) 04:44, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks, will probably be in August. Will ping you. cheers.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Women's literature
@Aristophanes68:, I'm currently on a forced wiki-vacation :), but wanted to comment on your contribs to the discussion on ethnic women's literature. I agree that it's problematic that only 4 American ethnicities+women are called out, but I think it's also problematic since these categories will tend to segregate women's literature separate from the neutral parents - a number of the individual books, as well as the "books by X" categories are only present in the ethnic+women category, and not in the parent (thus, "ghettoized"). It is, I believe, the structure of these categories that tends to create this problem - they are (at least in some trees) what we call "final rung" - with no diffusing siblings.
- I also have another question for you, re: the Category:Literature by women category - I think one problem with this category as it currently stands is the scope is unclear. We have a massive Category:Literature tree and books can be sorted by year, by nationality, by theme, etc. However, as currently populated, the Category:Literature by women category seems to mostly contain individual author categories, and doesn't include books which don't have authors. Do you agree that it should remain this way? I think it makes sense, and I don't think it would be that useful to create a category with thousands of articles of Category:Literature by women when we have a well developed neutral tree in Category:Literature. I can see the value in calling out, under Category:American literature, specific ethnic splits (and grouping the authors in there as well), but I don't think given the number of women writers we have (we have I think over 1500 American women novelists alone) that grouping all of the individual books into Category:Literature by women or even Category:Literature by American women (which would, if created, also violate final rung rule) would be useful. If you agree, we may want to rename Category:Literature by women to be something like Category:Women's literature by writer which would just be a container that would only contain subcategories where we actually have them created for women writers, similar to Category:Works_by_American_writers--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:47, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I too noticed the weirdness of the Lit by Women cat, since it contains only "works by" cats and not individual titles. And renaming it Women's Lit by Author would definitely fit the scope as it currently is. Cheers, Aristophanes68 (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is "Women's literature" the same as "Literature by women"? Interesting question... But yes, Category:Women's literature by writer would seem to better fit the intended scope and be more workable to boot. I suggest we wait until the July 14 category discussion finishes, and then consider a broader discussion at the lit project on the women's lit category and intended scope (once my sentence is served out), and then we could perhaps suggest a rename of the category based on that discussion. It is probably missing some elements as well, I'm a bit surprised there are only ~200 entries. I notice a massive inconsistency in how books are categorized. While we have a deep category tree, most books are not fully categorized within.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- 'Women's literature' is definitely not the same as 'Literature by women'. There have been contributions within literature by women as long as there has been literature, they just unfortunately have had to publish by alias due to patriarchal governments, and their work often doesn't get the acclaim that it should have. From Symbolism to Modernism and Postmodernism there have been significant contributions by women, to a degree that the movements would not be the same without them. In my opinion, Rachilde is possibly the most innovative Decadent novelist, Djuna Barnes wrote some of the best Modernist books, and Hilda Doolittle is the strongest Imagist poet. Women's literature is, at least how I see it, literature aimed at women, whilst literature by women includes all literature by female authors, and women have contributed to most significant literary movements as equals to men, even if under alias --80.193.191.143 (talk) 09:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's used both ways. For example, [2] says women's literature, but they seem to mean 'any writing ever made by a woman on any subject.' I don't even know what decadent novelist means, but it sounds fun - which books would you recommend?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Really? Well that's a shame. I'm hoping things will get more egalitarian in terms of work profiling as gender roles become less stringent. If society is moving in that way. I can't tell. Decadent literature is fun! We have an article on it at Decadent movement. I'd probably start with Baudelaire's poems if you'd like a quick look at how it is read: [3]. Rachilde is a very interesting writer. Very much against gender roles but also an anti-Feminist among other things. Worth a read either way, it's only recently I've been able to get a cheap translation of her work --80.193.191.143 (talk) 13:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's used both ways. For example, [2] says women's literature, but they seem to mean 'any writing ever made by a woman on any subject.' I don't even know what decadent novelist means, but it sounds fun - which books would you recommend?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- 'Women's literature' is definitely not the same as 'Literature by women'. There have been contributions within literature by women as long as there has been literature, they just unfortunately have had to publish by alias due to patriarchal governments, and their work often doesn't get the acclaim that it should have. From Symbolism to Modernism and Postmodernism there have been significant contributions by women, to a degree that the movements would not be the same without them. In my opinion, Rachilde is possibly the most innovative Decadent novelist, Djuna Barnes wrote some of the best Modernist books, and Hilda Doolittle is the strongest Imagist poet. Women's literature is, at least how I see it, literature aimed at women, whilst literature by women includes all literature by female authors, and women have contributed to most significant literary movements as equals to men, even if under alias --80.193.191.143 (talk) 09:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is "Women's literature" the same as "Literature by women"? Interesting question... But yes, Category:Women's literature by writer would seem to better fit the intended scope and be more workable to boot. I suggest we wait until the July 14 category discussion finishes, and then consider a broader discussion at the lit project on the women's lit category and intended scope (once my sentence is served out), and then we could perhaps suggest a rename of the category based on that discussion. It is probably missing some elements as well, I'm a bit surprised there are only ~200 entries. I notice a massive inconsistency in how books are categorized. While we have a deep category tree, most books are not fully categorized within.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I too noticed the weirdness of the Lit by Women cat, since it contains only "works by" cats and not individual titles. And renaming it Women's Lit by Author would definitely fit the scope as it currently is. Cheers, Aristophanes68 (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
A separate question, as well. Should Category:Asian-American literature (and subcategories) be populated with all books by any author who identifies as Asian-American? IOW, is this a "genre" category or it is an "ethnicity of the writer" + "book they wrote" category? The lede suggests the latter. But if that's the case, these also seem woefully underpopulated, given the number of books we have - and I noticed a few books are _only_ in the Category:Asian-American literature category, so there's also some ghettoization in this tree (and other ethnic trees) it seems. I think you've been curating some of these categories - how do you think they should be used?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Adam Jones - feminist?
In light of the recent nasty treatment I received for daring to defend the Violence against men category from deletion, talk page stalkers may be interested to read this interview of Adam Jones (who actually identifies as a feminist): [4], who has written extensively on gender-based violence against men - I used his writings to defend the category, amongst others. During the debate some claimed Jones was a shill for the MRA, a movement he seems to disclaim association with in fact. I think his overall point is a good one - gender matters, and gender != women, and he credits (as would I) feminism with conceptualizing notions of gender roles.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:03, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- also excellent primer on VAM here: [5] --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- For a lot of people, it was the manner in which you used the category, the more kooky inclusions like SCUM Manifesto and Hanged Drawn and Quartered, and the articles that you removed from 'Violence against women' in order to promote it. I think the category itself would be fine if competently managed --80.193.191.143 (talk) 09:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- it's v strange you bring up SCUM; other editors were discussing the appropriateness of that category for 2 years before I ever cared about the subject! As for hanged/drawn/quartered - emasculation was part of the procedure, and it was only used on men. I agree the men weren't selected for it purely based on being men, but once their crimes fit that punishment only men underwent it. The castration can be seen as a symbolic attack on his manhood, and since he's dying anyway it's removal seems mostly symbolic and intended to target that which makes him a man. I noticed you added Scold's bridle to VAW which is a form of torture almost exclusively used on women.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:07, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- So you still support both inclusions? That's about all that I need to know. The Scold's bride was sexist violence. The intent was to humiliate them publicly for minor crimes such as being "rude" or "shrews". It's usage relies on misogynistic notions and it was used to, for lack of better words, put women in their place. It doesn't surprise me that you can't see that reading into the article though --80.193.191.143 (talk) 13:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with Scolds bridle being in VAW category. I just think the emasculation and public evisceration that was only targeted at men was also an example of shaming and there was a gendered component to it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:57, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's not nearly the same thing, in the instance of the Scolds the women were punished for a crime that men would not be evenly guilty of. It was used indiscriminately for minor crimes. Whereas in the HD&Q "men were to be hanged, drawn and quartered, while for reasons of public decency (their anatomy being considered inappropriate for the sentence), women were instead drawn and burned". Both are disturbing but it seems to be wholly at the execution stage, exclusively because their anatomy was "inappropriate" for the sentencing. This is largely the issue that I have with your use of the category. You don't seem to understand what exactly sexist violence is --80.193.191.143 (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- the scope of the category is gendered and sexual violence, not 'violence inspired purely by misandry'. The removal of the sex organs, similar to cutting off the breasts of women, is clearly a form of gendered violence, and if a horrific torture is only imposed against men , it's also a form of gendered violence ipso facto, because it suggests that it is appropriate to subject men to such. If a terrorist group went into a village and took all the men and chopped off their dicks and then raped all the women we'd consider it gendered violence against both sexes; if they just shot everyone indiscriminately it wouldn't be gendered violence. if women were the only ones burned at the stake then I'd argue on similar grounds to add that to VAW (but it's not the case). Anyway, why are you harping on this one article? Your time might be better spent cleaning out VAW which includes many more inappropriate things than VAM ever did. It would be a good demonstration of your ability to edit neutrally.Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's hard to tell what the scope of the category is, when they were created they seemed to be an extension of the VAW article that was sexist and gendered violence. I'm still unconvinced HD&Q is sexist violence, did you ever find a source of somebody discussing the practice as sexist? I'm not especially read in 14th century society. I'm not "harping on", it was an example that you contested, like SCUM. I've removed content from both categories, although you did get most of the ill-fitting VAW articles with your run through --80.193.191.143 (talk) 17:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- gendered and sexual (not sexist) violence is within the scope of the category. Thus rape, a form of sexual violence, and which isn't necessarily sexist, is in scope. There will always be people who disagree with you 80, but that's not an excuse to run around accusing them being MRA shills or being sexist. It's a cheap shot.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think you are an "MRA shill", you generally use different sources and arguments to MRAs --80.193.191.143 (talk) 18:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- gendered and sexual (not sexist) violence is within the scope of the category. Thus rape, a form of sexual violence, and which isn't necessarily sexist, is in scope. There will always be people who disagree with you 80, but that's not an excuse to run around accusing them being MRA shills or being sexist. It's a cheap shot.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's hard to tell what the scope of the category is, when they were created they seemed to be an extension of the VAW article that was sexist and gendered violence. I'm still unconvinced HD&Q is sexist violence, did you ever find a source of somebody discussing the practice as sexist? I'm not especially read in 14th century society. I'm not "harping on", it was an example that you contested, like SCUM. I've removed content from both categories, although you did get most of the ill-fitting VAW articles with your run through --80.193.191.143 (talk) 17:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- the scope of the category is gendered and sexual violence, not 'violence inspired purely by misandry'. The removal of the sex organs, similar to cutting off the breasts of women, is clearly a form of gendered violence, and if a horrific torture is only imposed against men , it's also a form of gendered violence ipso facto, because it suggests that it is appropriate to subject men to such. If a terrorist group went into a village and took all the men and chopped off their dicks and then raped all the women we'd consider it gendered violence against both sexes; if they just shot everyone indiscriminately it wouldn't be gendered violence. if women were the only ones burned at the stake then I'd argue on similar grounds to add that to VAW (but it's not the case). Anyway, why are you harping on this one article? Your time might be better spent cleaning out VAW which includes many more inappropriate things than VAM ever did. It would be a good demonstration of your ability to edit neutrally.Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's not nearly the same thing, in the instance of the Scolds the women were punished for a crime that men would not be evenly guilty of. It was used indiscriminately for minor crimes. Whereas in the HD&Q "men were to be hanged, drawn and quartered, while for reasons of public decency (their anatomy being considered inappropriate for the sentence), women were instead drawn and burned". Both are disturbing but it seems to be wholly at the execution stage, exclusively because their anatomy was "inappropriate" for the sentencing. This is largely the issue that I have with your use of the category. You don't seem to understand what exactly sexist violence is --80.193.191.143 (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with Scolds bridle being in VAW category. I just think the emasculation and public evisceration that was only targeted at men was also an example of shaming and there was a gendered component to it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:57, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- So you still support both inclusions? That's about all that I need to know. The Scold's bride was sexist violence. The intent was to humiliate them publicly for minor crimes such as being "rude" or "shrews". It's usage relies on misogynistic notions and it was used to, for lack of better words, put women in their place. It doesn't surprise me that you can't see that reading into the article though --80.193.191.143 (talk) 13:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- it's v strange you bring up SCUM; other editors were discussing the appropriateness of that category for 2 years before I ever cared about the subject! As for hanged/drawn/quartered - emasculation was part of the procedure, and it was only used on men. I agree the men weren't selected for it purely based on being men, but once their crimes fit that punishment only men underwent it. The castration can be seen as a symbolic attack on his manhood, and since he's dying anyway it's removal seems mostly symbolic and intended to target that which makes him a man. I noticed you added Scold's bridle to VAW which is a form of torture almost exclusively used on women.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:07, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- For a lot of people, it was the manner in which you used the category, the more kooky inclusions like SCUM Manifesto and Hanged Drawn and Quartered, and the articles that you removed from 'Violence against women' in order to promote it. I think the category itself would be fine if competently managed --80.193.191.143 (talk) 09:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- i can't download [6] this source, but the abstract hints at the point I'm making - although in this case they're likely just talking about castration. I know I found another source that directly linked the emasculation and humiliating torture of traitorous men in HDQ to codes of masculinity but I can't find it right now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Precious again
categories
Thank you for quality articles, such as Magnus Manske, and for sorting categories and article names as a Wiki Gnome, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:05, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
A year ago, you were the 555th recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the award @Gerda Arendt:, I really appreciate it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:24, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
A cookie for you!
|
Good job standing up to all the hate that goes your way. Some people personally attack you, and I think that you have really stood up to that. While we might not see eye to eye on issues such as inclusion standards on the VAM/VAW categories, I think we can both appreciate reasonable discussion, which may get heated, but you always stay frosty. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 15:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC) |
- Thanks for the cookie Grodnard. I wish I could stay more cool sometimes actually, one can always do better. The Dalai Lama said "Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." Anyway, recent dramas have caused me to wonder whether participating here is a good use of my time, so I'm going for an extended break, hopefully I'll be more up to editing here someday.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:24, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
ARBCOM clarification request regarding use of "TERF"
I have initiated a request for clarification from the ARBCOM regarding the use of "TERF" per discussions on Talk:Radical feminism. I am messaging you because you have been involved in past discussions regarding this issue and may wish to participate in the new discussion at the ARBCOM. The discussion can be found here. Thank you and best wishes. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:40, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
You win
I Just wanted to let you know that I've given up the ghost per Category_talk:Anti-Semitism#RFC_on_purging_individuals_and_groups, and per your earlier inclination I've been trying to purge the category myself. That doesn't mean that they aren't coming for me; I only hope that you'll carry on after my absence -- Kendrick7talk 06:02, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Category:People by ethnic or national descent by continent
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Seasonal Greets!
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Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2015!!! |
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Hillary Rodham Clinton - Move Discussion
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Thanks. And have a nice day. NickCT (talk) 18:48, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Conflict Resolution (album)
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Proposed deletion of Politics in the British Isles
The article Politics in the British Isles has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
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Nomination of Politics in the British Isles for deletion
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Merger discussion for Vitalik Buterin
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Precious anniversary
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| categories | |
|---|---|
| ... you were recipient no. 555 of Precious, a prize of QAI! |
Miss you already, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:22, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
An other CfR discussion for US city categories
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A discussion you may be interested in
I have just made a new nomination for renaming categories for those U.S cities where the article doesn't include the state name. Since you participated in a recent discussion about this, you may want to express your opinion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 September 6#Major US cities. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 16:18, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
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Precious four years
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| Four years! |
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--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Precious anniversary
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| Six years! |
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miss you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
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Precious anniversary
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| Seven years! |
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miss you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:44, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
Nomination for merging of Template:Template:Old move
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Nomination of Politics in the British Isles for deletion
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Nomination for merger of Template:Old moves
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