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I would like to thank User:Legacypac for developing the {{NSFW}}, Not Suitable for Wikipedia, template, and would like to encourage its use as appropriate. I will note that it can be applied in either of two ways, by manual editing of a draft, or by inclusion of the template in the decline message. I think that it should address the concerns of User:SmokeyJoe about the encouragement to keep trying; at least, for an inherently optimistic enthusiastic user who doesn't understand, it sends such a mixed message with the decline wording that they might actually go to the Teahouse and be told that their submission is crud.

I have a few comments. First, I have used it a few times today, but most of the really unsuitable drafts that I encountered were eligible for G11. I would suggest that it can be slapped on a draft for which G11 has been declined but is still a candidate for A7 or A1 or whatever in mainspace.

In one case, I made a statement on the talk page, but normally I have just provided AFC comments.

I would urge that an editor who decides to delete the AFC decline comments, if they included NSFW, would leave the NSFW standing rather than stripping it too.

I haven't used NSFW on some stupid one-sentence entries, although they would get A1 or A7 or even A3, because I am not sure that the editor knew that Submit meant "Request consideration as an article". It could mean anything.

Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later. I tagged an article as NSFW with, among other things, the comment that I wasn't sure whether it was about a person or a web site, and that it had no references. The author added a lede sentence, but no references, and didn't try to clean up the malformed infobox. I declined it again with a warning that resubmitting it again without references will result in deletion being requested. I didn't think it was a G11 candidate, just crud. The NSFW template does, reasonably, say to ask for advice at the Teahouse. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd say it needs to be a lot more forceful. It needs to look like a deletion template. A red background and/or border, larger text and a more unfriendly icon would go some way towards achieving that. MER-C 18:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Sure User:MER-C I'm not much of a template editor yet but that sounds good. Legacypac (talk) 23:27, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
{{ombox}} has quite a lot of examples of different colour schemes, which is nice because making templates from scratch is a bitch. Primefac (talk) 23:40, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
The version with type=delete and the exclamation mark was exactly what I had in mind. MER-C 08:05, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I have created a snarky alias for this template: {{Bitey box}}. Seriously, if you're annoyed by crap submissions, stop working on crap submissions. Please at least let another reviewer handle any resubmission, ideally after letting it sit in the queue a few weeks. ~Kvng (talk) 01:46, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Snarky alias aside, I also worry about the template (and the general process) being harsh to newcomers. Maybe a talk page template that would explain what notability is and why their article is unlikely to ever pass would have better results for retention of new users, as well as getting them to understand what they're doing wrong. Acebulf (talk) 04:07, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
We provide lots of advice including in the Article Wizard. Some editors sail right past it all and need to be told clearly their creation hopeless. Legacypac (talk) 04:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't disagree. I just think we could phrase it a bit softer if it's the first time the article is rejected. If they keep resubmitting, then by all means slap a giant red box on the draft. I think the article wizard could do a better job of making sure that the users understand what is notability. I tried it out earlier today, and it's quite easy for a new editor to get overwhelmed or completely overlook the part of article creation that asserts whether the article is suitable for inclusion. Perhaps we could have one of the slides in the article wizard talk about what is suitable for inclusion, in order to make sure that it is understood by the users. Acebulf (talk) 04:52, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
We can always put nice words on the draft or user talk, or just decline with the invitation to improve the hopeless. Legacypac (talk) 05:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough, though I don't think we want to necessarily encourage someone to waste their time improving a hopeless article. Acebulf (talk) 03:15, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
  • A quick two cents: Could we perhaps rename the template Not Suitable For Inclusion? I think that the acronym NSFW already has meaning in popular parlance, and might be misinterpreted. Or maybe simply remove the bold on the letters, as I think it's implying something other than what we want to convey. Acebulf (talk) 03:15, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
That's was meant as a feature not a negative. Needed something easy to remember. Just Unsuitable Not Keeping better for you? Feel free to create another version and add it to the same tracking category Legacypac (talk) 05:37, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
@Legacypac:Actually, "Just Unsuitable Not Keeping" is pretty good. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 01:54, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, a rename is needed. Far too confusable otherwise. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:38, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

There is already plenty of gentle language and detailed explanations of notability in the author-facing messaging. Some authors ignore all of this. Whether done out of ignorance or anger, their prompt resubmissions are a form of trolling. You don't want to feed the {{Bitey box}} or anything else with emotional calories to a troll. You want to let things sit in the queue and deal with them in turn. These situations are only a suck on our reviewer resources if we add energy to the situation. ~Kvng (talk) 12:46, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Checking my assumptions here, actually there may not be "plenty of gentle language and detailed explanations of notability." See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/AfC Process Improvement May 2018#Article wizard. ~Kvng (talk) 13:11, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Implementing ACPERM[edit]

In case anybody else doesn't know the WMF is aiming to implement ACPERM the week of April 30. See T192455 which was posted at this query I made. Jytdog (talk) 20:11, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Which is next week. A lot of work was done to prepare people for the trial. Is there anything we should to do to prepare for this? Jytdog (talk) 20:14, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
As far as I know most help pages, templates, etc were already modified to reflect WP:ACREQ in a way that they would work regardless of the outcome. Now is a great time to keep banging down the WP:AFC backlog before the influx of new drafts hits when the switch is turned off in mainspace. The backlog is under 1500 pages now, down from 2500+ pages a few weeks ago, but still some pages wait 8 weeks to be addressed. Legacypac (talk) 20:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

WP:ACREQ went live on Thursday. AfC will now see an influx of pages that have been diverted from mainspace where they were summarily deleted. Legacypac (talk) 18:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Navigation tempates in drafts[edit]

While doing non-free content cleanup related to WP:NFCC#9, I often come across drafts/userspace drafts which contain navigation templates. While I'm aware that article categories should be disabled per WP:USERNOCAT and WP:DRAFTNOCAT, I am never sure about these templates. Can these be left as is or should they also be disabled? -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

If the Nav templates only link out to mainspace or redlinks I see no problem. Often the Draft is for a redlink on the template or will be added to the template. Legacypac (talk) 02:14, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, navbars don't often add a category, and as long as the navbar itself doesn't link to the draft it's usually okay. Primefac (talk) 14:02, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Feedback requested on AfC review process rework.[edit]

I have floated an idea over at the AfC Process Improvement page that would be a rework of the current review system. Any feedback that any of you guys could provide would be welcome. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 21:53, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

AFCH script typo[edit]

When you decline a draft, one of the reasons in the drop-down menu is 'neo - Submission is about a neologisim not yet shown to meet notability guidelines. In the script, 'neologisim' is spelt wrong. Is should be 'neologism'. Can you please correct the typo. Thanks. Pkbwcgs (talk) 16:27, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Enterprisey, seems to be script-side (the /comments are written correctly) and I don't have Github access yet to fix it myself. Primefac (talk) 16:34, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Neologism is spelt as 'neologisim' in the script. Pkbwcgs (talk) 16:45, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, we know. My comment was a) to alert one of the script devs, and b) alert everyone else that it's only in the script (i.e. the only people who will see the typo are reviewers), which is probably why no one ever noticed it before now. Primefac (talk) 16:49, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Reducing backlog[edit]

Sometimes, when I am trying to approve an article that has been nominated for a long time, I cannot perform the action because a redirect exists where I am trying to put the page in mainspace. As of right now, I have to contact an admin to get it done for me.

It would be nice if

A. AfC members were granted a right that let them move pages over redirects (with a warning) or B. There was something in the AfC workflow where you could tentatively approve a page, and it went into an admin's queue to move over the redirect automatically.

My theory is that when people try to move a page over the redirect and find out they cannot, they just move on to another article (admittedly, I have done this sometimes, if I could not find an admin). This therefore contributes to the backlog. Thoughts? Kees08 (Talk) 21:28, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I face this same issue. You can Comment the plan to approve the page and that there is a redirect in thje way. Then CSD G6 the redirect noting the Draft and watch it. Some Admins will delete and move while others will just delete and wait for you to make the move. Legacypac (talk) 21:52, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
A G6 is definitely the way to go. Make sure you're using {{db-move}} in the off chance the patrolling admin feels like moving the page themselves. Primefac (talk) 22:51, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
In that case, could we have AFCH G6 the redirect and add {{db-move}} to the draft? Would simplify the workflow for casual AfC'ers like myself. Kees08 (Talk) 01:51, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
That would be a task to add to the Github page for AFCH so it could be properly dev'd. Primefac (talk) 01:56, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Done, was hoping to get some general community approval first. Seems to be a value-added addition. Kees08 (Talk) 02:42, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
I think this would count well enough; no one is going to contest their lives being made easier. Primefac (talk) 15:08, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
If you add db-move to the draft, then the draft is tagged with G6, and might get deleted. So you need to tag the redirect with db-move, but insert the name of the draft. However perhaps we do not just want a move, but the other AFC processes such as notification, listing and talk page tagging, which the actioning admin may not do. If the script partially did these, we would have to make sure that the move happened later, and not just redirect deletion. So it should add to a pending moves list in case it is forgotten. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:37, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Not really needed to add to pending moves list since the Draft sits in the unreviewed backlog until someone notices it has been Commented on as good but waitimg on the redirect deletion and the "this exists in mainspace" message is gone, assuming to approving reviewer does not notice the deletion on watchlist. Legacypac (talk) 16:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Forgive me, but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying (some full stops might help?). Are you saying that it's unnecessary to tag the related article because the draft will just sit there indefinitely until someone happens to notice the page is gone? Because from my experience I get a ping requesting I delete an article, I do it, and then the ping-er accepts the draft. Primefac (talk) 18:47, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Authorised reviewer?[edit]

Who is user talk:Wiki841 and why with only 100 edits are they moving inappropriate drafts to mainspace? Probably in good faith but they are not ready for this yet. Can somebody please help them? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:33, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

My old drafts.[edit]

I have several old drafts that I created. When I am done with them, do I need to submit them for review, or can I just move to mainspace/userify? Eddie891 Talk Work 12:18, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Eddie891. You do not need to submit them for review, you may move them to mainspace or user space as you see fit. --Worldbruce (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Of course, if you think they should be reviewed, you're welcome to submit them. Primefac (talk) 15:09, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Ayman Kamel[edit]

Having made a couple of comments on this draft, the author is asking me for help and I'm not sure on the best advice to give. In particular:

  • COI - the editor acknowledges they have a COI, presumably being a staffer at the Egyptian Embassy in Japan. How should they best declare this? Something like this User:Tarafa15? And does their COI prohibit them from creating the page, as opposed to suggesting edits?
  • [1] - They are asking me about this and I've no idea. Is it some, off-wiki, mirror site?
  • Acceptability - I'm no fan of conflict editing, but this appears at the lesser end of the scale to me? It's not overly promotional and provides useful information about a significant diplomat. Thoughts? And do we have a Notability guideline for diplomats? I'm assuming the ambassador of a sovereign state is Notable. Am I right?

Any advice gratefully received. The exchange is on my talkpage. KJP1 (talk) 15:13, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Accepted. Primefac (talk) 17:57, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

This is me, genuinely curious[edit]

While I'm pleased as punch that we have two "day" categories completely empty, is there any particular reason why no one seems to be patrolling from the back of the queue? We went from zero very olds to a dozen overnight, after almost a month of nothing older than 8 weeks. Primefac (talk) 17:43, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Primefac - We have! I’ve been going from the back, as well as the front, as you’ll see from the last time Very Old = 0. If I do a few more oldies, can you advise on my Egyptian ambassador?! KJP1 (talk) 17:49, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I mean, I know there's been activity on both sides, it was just surprising yesterday when I saw we were at 2+ after having it clear for such a relatively long period. Primefac (talk) 17:54, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
The script encourages GFOO (less than a day) and Very old. I've been trying to keep up on the recent posts on the idea that quick turn around will encourage not abandoning good stuff while sending a strong message on the junk. I also tackle older pages. We should probably move "Very old" back to 7 weeks. Legacypac (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Reviewers who ignore their own talk page[edit]

Can we build it in to the requirements of reviewers that they promptly reply to comments on their talk page from the authors whose drafts they've declined? I was just looking at User talk:ToThAc, for example. They've been reminded of this, but they didn't reply to that and I see no improvement. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:26, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

  • I'd obviously like to hear what ToThAc has to say about this, but in general I would say that it's not required to respond on the user's talk page. A former member of this project almost refused to do so, and instead responded on the draft itself. I think as long as some sort of reply is given, that's good.
In this case, though, I'm not seeing any comments anywhere, which isn't good.
To get back to the original question, I think it would be beneficial to make it part of the requirements. At the moment it's one of the criteria I use to evaluate potential AFC reviewers; do they respond when others make talk page posts, are they friendly/cordial/etc? I could get behind codifying it. Primefac (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
As you know the decline templates include "If you require extra help ... ask the reviewer that declined your submission" with a link that creates a new section on the reviewer's talk page, so I think it should be a requirement. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
  • One of the built in problems with the system is any encouragement for users to contact reviewers via their talkpages instead of commenting on the Draft talk werethe next reviewer will see it. I often copy comments over and reply on the Draft talk. Legacypac (talk) 17:49, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
    That's not the question, and not the issue here. Primefac (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Actually, Primefac, I'd agree and say it's better to respond on the draft itself. Sometimes I'm unsure of how to respond to certain questions (or if my answer is necessarily the best), but other users might have better answers. That said, I think it's better if questions about declined submissions are posted on the draft, since it's a bit more inviting of discussion at the least. (By the way, I am open to a re-review of the page in question.) ToThAc (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Additionally, I find this to be yet another problem with the AfC process. With "reviewers" reviewing submissions, it's hard not to make questionable reviews...and coupled with the fact that the process is only dependent on one reviewer. Even I admit I've had to make tough reviews. With a little more focus on the mainspace, it's easier to deal with questionable content, since technically multiple users might review said questionable content, rather than a one-user dependence. Once we finish de-backlogging, I'd be all for superseding AfC. ToThAc (talk) 18:09, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Availability to respond to inquiries is part of the requirements. Most inquiries are hard to respond too because there is no real question not answered by the links in the decline. Legacypac (talk) 17:55, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Often the author is asking for a re-review, and I've read elsewhere that we're considering it best practice to let a different reviewer do the re-review rather than the same reviewer decline a draft multiple times. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:00, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I don't feel that this should be strictly mandated. My general policy is to reply if I feel there's something to come of it. If it's obvious spam, I simply let it rot nearly to the point of WP:DENY. Obviously, if there's someone out there who is showing good faith, sure, help them out; but to say you must reply promptly to every inquiry you get about declines is too much. Drewmutt (^ᴥ^) talk 19:34, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Agreed - 'every' would go too far. I certainly don't reply to every comment. Maybe the requirement should say something like 'reviewers must show willingness to answer questions left on their talk page by draft authors. Reviewers may respond to the question there, on the draft's talk page or on the author's talk page, as they see fit.' Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:10, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I sure don't directly reply to every post on my talk. Some are best ignored. Some I reply by declining the page again. Others by approving it. I don't do every review requested of me, nor should I be forced to. Legacypac (talk) 20:51, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Exactly. Which leads me to think we should just continue keeping an eye on/for each other, and treat the problematic cases as they come. I'm a big proponent of policy change, but I don't see how an overarching one would benefit us here. If we were to implement one, it'd be so loose that it'd be useless and therefore unenforceable; and we already have plenty of those :P Drewmutt (^ᴥ^) talk 06:57, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Yashodhara Lal[edit]

With her new book creating buzz in the market, people will search her on the internet and it would be great if encyclopedia comes up. I know she passes GNG but I think I might be a subject to COI as creator. I was wondering if any reviewer could spare some time and take a look. And if it looks good then maybe accept it? Thanks! Dial911 (talk) 20:49, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

FYI: Request to change HasteurBot implementation regarding Promising Draft template[edit]

[2]. Just a FYI at this time, but I have personally opposed the this request as there appears to have been no consensus for this and think this is a very bad idea. Hasteur (talk) 02:42, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


wrong venue Chetsford (talk) 15:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Similar to the recent question regarding Wiki841 by Kudpung; I would like to express my appreciation to KnowledgeChuck for his enthusiasm in moving a number of drafts to mainspace (e.g. DJ JY (artist) [3], etc.), as well as declining a variety of AfC submissions (e.g. Draft:Sidsel Kjøller Damkjær, etc.) but - since he has only 123 lifetime edits - I wonder if we might be unfairly occupying his time doing AfC reviews at this early stage in his editing tenure? Since he's planning on "going 24/7 on new page patrols" [4] it might be unreasonable to encumber him with AfC reviewing right now as well. Chetsford (talk) 14:28, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll leave the substantive stuff to someone else, but I've undone their review of Draft:Sidsel Kjøller Damkjær and put the draft back in the queue, since they are not on the AfC participants' list and because it was an improper decline rationale. /wiae /tlk 14:35, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
I apologize for the preemptive above note; based on The Mighty Glen's comment here, it appears there might be something else going on and this might be a topic more appropriate for a different venue. Chetsford (talk) 15:03, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Becoming a AFC Reviewer[edit]


I have been a pretty active editor recently, and was wondering if I could be given access to the AFC Helper Script? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbhbchange (talkcontribs) 15:51, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Mbhbchange, requests are generally made here, but you do not meet the minimum requirements. Primefac (talk) 15:53, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Mbhbchange Also would you please reply at User_talk:Mbhbchange#Conflict_of_interest_in_Wikipedia? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:00, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Reviewer bashing at AFD[edit]

We are definitely done now. Mdann52 (talk) 15:57, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We're done for now.Seperate issues may be entertained in new threads.~ Winged BladesGodric 12:00, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

One of my accepts Mimi Elsa was taken to AfD, which is fine - I'm not bothered by that. User:Tapered is making interesting comments that personalize the AfD which is not so fine in my opinion. As this impacts what is expected of all AfC reviewers in terms of disclosure of our involvement, other AfC reviewers may want to weigh in on this AfD. Legacypac (talk) 06:51, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi I had a look at the discussion and to be honest the main thing Tapered seems to be accusing you of is not declaring in your keep !vote that you were the reviewer that accepted the article. They then state after an exchange that they do not believe that the article should have been accepted. I don't really believe it is worth wasting too much time on this. I haven't done much Afc for a while as I was attacking the backlog at NPP but I think we will always be faced with Afds of articles that we accept as we are alone in taking the decision and noone no perfect. Probably better to just step back and let the community decide. Dom from Paris (talk) 07:34, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
That said their comments are getting personal so I did weigh in just to remind them what the Afc process is about. Dom from Paris (talk) 08:56, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I have weighed in on the above AfD and left a message on Tapered's talk page. Without any prejudice to Legacypac's otherwise excellent work at AfC, I think we can consider this episode as closed for now. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:59, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
An "excellent" reviewer would actually review the submission without depending on whether the author is an experienced editor or not. Legacypac does not do that. KingAndGod 11:29, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:KingAndGod since you took the opportunity to use a single review to disparage all my reviews - the creator of that page has done numerous football pages and as a subject matter expert is better positioned to evalute adherence to WP:FOOTY. I believe that was an edge case where he was drafted to a professional club but had not yet played - as in he could qualify any day. Legacypac (talk) 15:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

It's probably not just a single review but I noticed a lot of your accepted submissions went through AfD (like the one in the thread above) and I wonder if they should've been declined rather than accepted. I think reviewing based on the author's experience isn't proper, given that AfC is the center for new editors to develop their submissions and have their work reviewed with high standard in order to prevent or reduce the chances of deletion. If reviewers are to let drafts get accepted merely because the author has written great articles, then what's the point of them submitting to AfC in the first place? In the Jon Aguirrezabala case, it is likely the author who put it in AfC knew the subject didn't meet WP:NFOOTBALL which was why he refrained from directly creating the article like he would have done if he wanted. If you are unable to review WP:NFOOTBALL submissions then maybe let another reviewer do it instead of accepting the submission only for it to be nominated for deletion, or worse, be kept in mainspace where it is undeserving. KingAndGod 15:58, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
I think that we see a lot of reviews from Legacypac because, well, they review a lot. The takeaway from this should be that everyone makes mistakes and it's inevitable that a couple edge cases will fall on the wrong side of the blade, despite best efforts. Can we stop the personal attacks please? Acebulf (talk) 04:31, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Some think that no reviewed AfC submissions should be deleted. That is a terrible standard to hold reviewers to, causing them to reject them many. 20% deleted would be ok. What percentage of Legacypac‘s AfC accepts have been deleted? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:52, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

A lot of my accepted submissions do NOT go through AfD - in fact very very few get taken to AfD because I have a very good understanding of notability criteria. So whatever you "noticed" was wrong.

Second, KingAndGod's pure speculation about the creator of the football bio is way off. That user is a prolific content creator now required to use AfC because they were using poor sourcing. I started a thread on football bios higher up and you can go review the creator's talk page and archive for more details. Legacypac (talk) 04:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Here's my take on it. AFC is a purely voluntary process nobody has to take their articles there. In the reviewing instructions it says "likely to survive" (likely is the same as probably which means more than a 50% chance) not definitely nor highly likely survive. If we start saying that a reviewer should have no fewer than 20% deleted then we will become more and more strict and review less and less articles and there will be an enormous backlog created. This will have 2 effects editors will either abandon creating articles or publish them directly in mainspace. And we will transfer the clean-up process to NPP. We have all seen perfectly notable articles get nominated and deleted as we have seen ridiculously non notable articles get speedily kept at Afd. This all depends on the participants and their own agendas. Sports and music Afds see fans arrive and defend tooth and nail their own pet areas. That's just how it works.Dom from Paris (talk) 13:43, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Best practice for finding things that need reviewing?[edit]

I started working on AfC a few weeks ago. It's certainly an eye-opener vis-a-vis the amount of crap, but every once in a while, I find a gem of a new article and that makes my day :-)

What's the best way to find drafts to review? I'm using Special:RandomInCategory/Pending_AfC_submissions, but that doesn't work well. I get lots of things that are in that category but aren't actually drafts (example: Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects). I also get lots of repeats. Is there a better way to do this? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:10, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

If you just want to review articles at random, what you're doing is fine. Just ignore non-drafts and repeats you don't review. You may also want to look at Category:AfC_pending_submissions_by_age. Or this template
A lot of the young stuff you'll have to decline. Things may get more delicious in the middle and you'll find the more challenging cases at the end. ~Kvng (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
RoySmith - Yes, it does rather open one's eyes. I think many of the commentators about Afc would be well advised to actually do it for a while. The influx of promotional material is astonishing and I think the extent to which people want to use Wikipedia as a marketing platform is seriously underestimated. I assume you mean this, [5], which I've always found helpful although I've never got it to sort by topic. Another way in is here, [6], which allows you to focus by date and can be quite motivating if you're looking to clear a whole category. I'm sure more experienced reviewers will have other suggestions. KJP1 (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Apologies - edit conflicting and repeating most of the above. KJP1 (talk) 14:50, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
What they said. Lately I've been picking days and clearing them after most of the worst junk is declined. I hope if we can clear enough days we will clear the backlog completely. Right now we have an entire week clear so when that week gets to the end our backlog will shorten. I also like to see the worst resubmissions CSD'd and MfD'd as that mostly stops them from getting in the cue over and over. As a time saver I put the link to submissions on the top of my userpage which gets me back to the list pretty quick - after you accept and clean up a page you need an easy way back to the list. User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] (talk) 15:01, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
A very good point, that I didn't learn until User:DGG made the suggestion. The most blatant promotional stuff can be sent straight to Wikipedia:G11, with or without a review. My experience with that has been very good, my experience with Mfd less so. KJP1 (talk) 15:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
I try to decline the worst G11 before CSDing as it removes it from the cue while waiting for an Admin to act. AfC reviewers as a group should be more supportive of each other at MfD so we can push through deletions of pages we have declined too many times. Maybe we should be pinging the AfC reviewers that declined, as interested editors. I don't think that would be canvassing. Legacypac (talk) 15:18, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Another good point. In the mountains(!) of discussion about the functioning of Afc/MfD, I sure I saw a good idea about Afc'ers reviewing together. That might address the single judge/jury criticism and I'm sure there's something in it. But I'm not convinced there's an appetite for solutions, or at least one as strong as the appetite some MfD'ers have for endless argument. KJP1 (talk) 15:27, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
No kidding. The quantity and volume of opinions on how AfC should function is great from those who don't work AfC. We have to have a way to flush out the pages that can't WP:OVERCOME. MfD should be that place. Maybe we should set an AfC limit to the number of submissions we allow. We could just remove the submission template after say 5 declines and Comment we will no longer consider the page. It would than G13 eventually. Legacypac (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Sure, but a consideration of Notability has to be part of that, when the draft has been submitted for inclusion in main space. As we both know, that is vehemently opposed, although for the life of me I don't understand the arguments. KJP1 (talk) 16:50, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
there are other techniques also. Some that I use are:
1. when deleting G13, if they would also qualify under G11, give both reasons. This will serve as a signal if there's a request for a REFUND.
2. When dealing with the sort of articles that would only be written by an involved or paid editor, always remind the editor that they must declare according to WP:COI.
3.Change the language in the notices as appropriate to further discourage re-creation without improvement. It is possible to edit the notices after they have been placed, and I sometimes do that. I will sometimes add a line in bold italics Do not resubmit unless you can show notability/remove promotional language, etc. it's in the form notices, but it can be made more prominent. I will sometimes even remove the line saying "If you want to work on this further..." This is especially important if the material is rapidly resubmitted unchanged, a frequent device of COI editors hoping for a different review.
4. After third resubmission without improvement, take to MfD or consider adding G11. A good MfD arguemnt is that successive editing has not improved it.
On the other hand
1.If you yourself can fix the article, for example by removing a few paragraphs of catalog information or testimonials, and the subject seems possibly notable, fix it and and move to mainspace.
2.It is also acceptable when unsure, to move to mainspace and then list for AfD, saying, I accepted this, but I am not sure if it is notable and it would be better to have a group discussion.
3.Watch out for articles previously declined for the wrong reason, such as non-BLPS declined for not having inline references, or because the prose could be improved. Some of these can be immediately accepted; others need a proper reason.
4.Try not to just decline with the form statement about notability or promotionalism when there are more specific reasons to be given & there is some possibility of acceptability. Contributors are more apt to improve an article if they are instructed just what is needed. They shouldn't need to come to the help desk to find that out. DGG ( talk ) 20:32, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Excellent points DGG. When G13ing I always try to tag G11 or G2 or whatever else is obviously a reason to close off the automatic refund of problematic pages. Moving to mainspace and taking to AfD is risking for a non-Admin. I've been sanctioned for even suggesting that as a possible strategy. Legacypac (talk) 05:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Recent spate of Drafts on Australian graphic designers[edit]

Hello, folks. I just declined a draft about an Australian graphic designer, commenting that, in addition to the failure to demonstrate notability, too much of the sourcing was coming from a single source. (The draft is Draft:Annette Harcus.) But something piqued my curioisty about that and so I did a little looking around. The draft's creator, User:InvisibleInAustralia has a user page that says somebody is being "represented by Jane Connory", who is the source that had been used in the Harcus draft. I also found that there is a website,, that is run by one Jane Connory (see here). Perhaps this is just a big coincidence but, if not, it suggests that the person running the website is writing articles about her clients and using her own writings to show notability.

I'm not inclined to be the one person who looks through all the drafts that are likely to be submitted by this user in the near future, so I'm posting here to alert folks to the situation. NewYorkActuary (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Sounds like UPE. Might be worth a warning and/or a block. Primefac (talk) 16:39, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

AfC process improvement with Community Tech team[edit]

Hi all -- I'm posting here to follow up on my original post from 2018-04-03 about work that WMF's Community Tech team will be doing in the coming weeks to improve the tools with which AfC reviewers can prioritize their work.

Based on a lot of good discussion with the AfC community, we've settled on a plan. Please check out the project page for the details. In brief, the plan is:

  • New Pages Feed will be extended to include AfC drafts as a new list of pages for review, in addition to the existing "Article" and "User" pages that are currently available.
  • The feed will be enhanced to allow prioritization by quality and copyvio scores for all pages in the interface.
  • These new capabilities will be available to both the AfC and NPP reviewers.

Thanks to all reviewers who have so far participated in the discussion. If you have not yet had a chance to weigh in, please do -- though we have limited bandwidth over the next several weeks to work on this project, we definitely want to get this as right as possible in concert with the AfC community.

-- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 21:51, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

@MMiller (WMF): Perhaps I've either had too much or not enough happy drink but could you please explain New Pages Feed will be extended to include AfC drafts for review, keeping AfC drafts separate from other pages in the feed. as it sounds like you're both wanting to include and not wanting to include AFC pages. Hasteur (talk) 22:50, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
@Hasteur: thanks for pointing out that I wrote this confusingly. Right now, in the New Pages Feed, reviewers can choose to see pages from the "Article" or "User" namespaces. This work would add AfC drafts as a third option. I want to make sure it's clear that we will not be lumping AfC drafts in with other new pages in such a way that they could not be distinguished from each other. A reviewer will be able to choose to see new articles or submitted drafts, but not both in the same list at the same time. I've attempted to clarify above. Does this make more sense? -- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 23:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Something erroneous in the introduction[edit]

I see this sentence in the introduction ". AfC works as a peer review process, where autoconfirmed users either accept and create an article submitted by an anonymous editor or decline the article because it is unsuitable for Wikipedia." - shouldn't this be at least extended confirmed as only EC users can ask for AFCH. Yes, any autoconfirmed user can just pick up a draft and then link to mainspace but this line sounds weird. --Quek157 (talk) 12:06, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Would someone else take over?[edit]

Could someone else review Draft:Gulf British Academy? I have declined several times in a row and it would be good to have someone else take a look at it and perhaps explain to the author in a different way what they need to do. I left comments each time but the author deleted them. I fear MfD is the way forward for it. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 21:04, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

  • The problem is it reads like an advertisement and lacks sources. Until that is fixed they will keep declining it.Trillfendi (talk) 21:19, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Curb Safe Charmer - Happy to take a look. But it looks like G11 to me. KJP1 (talk) 21:21, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Future part is clearly WP:TOOSOON & WP:CRYSTAL --Quek157 (talk) 21:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Multiple failed login attempts[edit]

Hello all,

I was wondering if any of you guys were having problems regarding failed login attempts. I figure it's someone that I reviewed that's trying to login to my account or something. Just checking if anyone else is having this problem. Acebulf (talk) 12:58, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

@Acebulf: It seems to have happened to quite a few users, and appears to be unrelated to AfC in particular. See WP:AN#Please help- who tried to break into my account? for more. /wiae /tlk 13:10, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Field Station: Dinosaurs Kansas[edit]

I saw a blue heading on the page which I previously reviewed and possibly can be up to scratch (not entirely reviewed before). I can't see who is reviewing in history. And it's more than 24 hrs, can someone help? --Quek157 (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

no Unnecessary settled Quek157 (talk) 18:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Deletion of drafts[edit]

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#RfC:_Deletion_of_drafts about the deletion of drafts that are repeatedly submitted without improvement to AfC. All are invited to participate. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:41, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Can someone explain what's behind the eagerness to delete drafts? Best I can tell, some reviewers who work at the front of the AfC queue are in conflict with frustrated or trollish authors and the reviewers want bigger sticks to fight with. Is there more to it? ~Kvng (talk) 19:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
It’s knee jerk reaction to the results of a broken-by-design system. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Dark ~Kvng (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Action for 'Already exists' should be augmented for foreign words[edit]

The action column for reason=Already exists in the table in the Quick-fail section of the Reviewing instructions page should be augmented, to say something about foreign words in English titles. One problem to be aware of is multiple transliteration possibilities. Ideally, imho, language experts should be called upon anytime a title appears to contain a foreign word as part of the title, before any content review is performed, which could otherwise be a waste of time.[a] Another question, is whether a foreign title should be used, or an English one.[b] More on this at WP:UE.

(As a secondary issue: the flow-chart does not quite match the text description, with the former showing duplicate-check as part of Content review, and the latter whowing it as part of Quick-fail criteria.) HTH, Mathglot (talk) 23:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I think this has been discussed before, or at least something similar, but I do not expect a reviewer to check every possible permutation of the spelling of a page before accepting or declining the page. Should a page named "Joe Bloggs (photographer)" be checked against Special:PrefixIndex/Joe Bloggs to ensure that he's not better-known for some other job, like (politician)? Similarly, I would not in a million years expect a reviewer to know that an alternate spelling of Kulche is Kulcha (hell, I don't even know how I would check that). Sure, if the page is titled "Joe Bloggs (2)" there should be a check done on the non-disambiguated title (just in case), but aside from that (or blatant spelling errors) we're better off accidentally accepting (or declining) a duplicate page and having an article space gnome make the connection.
As for the "best name" of a page - see above re: gnomes. Generally speaking if I am accepting a page I'll go with whatever the creator has used (barring the aforementioned horrible spelling/punct/caps/dab errors), and if someone thinks it should be at a better/different title they're welcome to move it themselves or get an RM going. That being said, I see no problem in changing a "German name" into an "English name" if it makes sense. Bottom line, I don't think we need to mandate that reviewers do one or the other. Primefac (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)


  1. ^ ...a waste of time: See, for example, my comment at WP:AFCHD regarding Draft:Kulche.
  2. ^ foreign or English title: For example, should an article about Germany's Constitution be entitled "German Constitution", "Constitution of Germany", or "Grundgesetz"? The actual article title is none of the above; it is called, "Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany"; a mistake, in my opinion.
Mathglot - I appreciate your picking up my Kulche/Kulcha oversight, as I said at the Helpdesk. But the suggestion that a language expert be called in every time one hits a foreign word just isn't realistic. I wish it were, given the number of drafts we get sourced entirely in Chinese, or Russian, or something else, but it isn't. KJP1 (talk) 13:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I strip unnecessary (DAB)s and bracketed acronyms but ya if the title a French name like one I accepted recently I leave it. Someone else can move it to English creating a redirect if they feel strongly about it. Legacypac (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

AFCH and G13[edit]

AFCH should allow tagging for G13 deletion for any draft with the last edit more than 6 months old, not just ones with the AfC submission template Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Technically an non-AFC draft is outside the scope of the project, and TW is just as many clicks to nominate for G13. Primefac (talk) 13:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
I have the AFC thing popup automatically so it is two less clicks (don't have to select G13 as the rationale and also submit query), and easier to click the big button. Technically yes but since it already allows submitting of non-AfC drafts.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:44, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough, I forgot that it pops up automatically (I haven't tagged G13 in a while). Primefac (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

That would be a sweet enhancement. The big button is much easier than the radio button way down at the bottom on mobile. Legacypac (talk) 14:21, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

User:A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver reviewer & all his aliases[edit]

The project might need to check the rejected drafts of this now banned sockmaster. I've just rescued a G13 rejected by him towards the start of ACTRIAL on a very clearly notable biochemist. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:12, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

You can’t complain about resubmissions when the draft contains a saccharine encouragement to improve and resubmit[edit]

Is there any prospect of a proper “reject” option for draft reviewers? SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

That's where I was going with this -- RoySmith (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:The National ELT Accreditation Scheme. The problem is not with deletion policy. TonyBallioni's Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#RfC:_Deletion_of_drafts is not addressing the problem. The problem is the really hopeless saccharine decline templates that encourage the author to edit, improve and resubmit, even when it is obviously and completely unsuitable. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I've been working on and off on a new decline template series, but at the moment the "do not resubmit" option is entirely dependent on which decline reasons we offer, and we haven't decided on which ones that should be used for (or if we should make a "new" set of decline reasons that don't encourage resubmission). The whole WMF thing kinda happened right in the middle of my plan to organize the revamp. Primefac (talk) 12:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I once could program. I can almost understand template code. How can I, how any a simple reviewer, adjustment the AfC templates on a Rejected (on a SHOULD BE FIRMLY REJECTED) draft so that it does not carry the encouragement to edit improve and resubmit? That is the first problem, at least with the tendentious resubmission mfd nominated cases. Slightly behind that is that the templates are TL;DR, which refers to the text plus formatting, not just text, and compounds with repeated templates. I teach, and I know how to recognise when the eyes have glazed over, and the newcomer draftspace authors eyes are frequently glazed over. “Tendentious” is not the word. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
I completely agree with you - our decline reasons should be short and to the point. Our decline templates should be short and to the point. I recall in a thread above someone posted an "updated" text for one of the decline reasons and it took me ten minutes to even find the difference because I kept glossing over it.
Take a look at the Article Wizard revamp - an entire RFC needed to be dedicated to it in order to change that (and there are still people complaining about how it's laid out), and we're talking about overhauling 30 decline reasons on top of a new template. Could we remove some of those entirely? Probably, but we should probably add some more as well. I just had a hint of an idea regarding that, though, and I'll see about fleshing it out in the coming days. Primefac (talk) 13:17, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Backlog Status[edit]

We now have 500 pages over 17 days unreviewed, and a big empty gap following the 17 day mark. I'm trying to keep newer pages from going over 21 days - kind of a new maximum review time of three weeks. Keep on plugging away because we are winning the backlog. Legacypac (talk) 07:29, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft talk:Example[edit]

Shouldn't Draft talk:Example redirect here instead of to User talk:Example ? -- (talk) 09:08, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

You'd have to ask Guy Macon (which I guess I just did), since that makes sense to me. Primefac (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I can't think of a single reason why we might want to do that., could you please explain?
I have taken it upon my self to maintain the various example pages on Wikipedia, because of two things:
  1. They tend to accumulate random cruft as newish editors "improve" them (why does improving always involve adding to and never simplifying?) and then move on. Meanwhile the page gets bigger and bigger and farther and farther from the purpose it was created for (see below).
  2. The associated talk pages get all sorts of misplaced warnings and notices plus a fair number of silly jokes. Just look at the history of User talk:Example: Notice of account creator right granted. Articles for creation submission accepted notification. Questions about a GA Nomination. Someone was waiting for those misplaced messages on their talk page.
I have addressed the talk page issue by redirecting as many of them as possible to a single talk page where I deal with them in a central location, often by gently informing someone that they sent a message to the wrong place and inviting them to send it to the right place.
The purpose of an example page is to be an example. For example, one might write "For an example of a good format for your new draft see Draft:Example." Most material written to any draft talk page is the result of a mistake. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
The purpose of a talk page is to discuss the page in question. Since it is an example of an article, to discuss it would mean to discuss how to write an article. As such, one would expect they would go to AfC talk, or Helpdesk, and not to User talk: Example, which is a useless talk page. "DRAFT TALK" isn't a random sandbox space, it is a space for discussing the draft page in question. -- (talk) 05:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Editing out the Resubmit button on the Decline notice[edit]

I know I've seen this done. Can somebody remind me how? KJP1 (talk) 13:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

You've seen it only because I sandboxed it. Unless you're substing the entire code of the template onto the page, the resubmit cannot be hidden. Technically speaking putting |small=yes removes it, but only because that means there's a not-small template somewhere else on the page. Primefac (talk) 19:52, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
That feature should really be added to the main template. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 08:31, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
I do think it would be a really helpful addition. It would also address one of the more constant complaints re. the Afc process. KJP1 (talk) 07:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Declines on a Post Secendary school?[edit]

Draft:Shri Ram Murti Smarak College of Engineering and Technology (SRMSCET), Unnao has been declined by multiple reviewers. Pretty much every degree granting post secendary school is notable. Why are we declining this page over and over? Legacypac (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I see this happen for WP:GEOLAND and WP:NTV subjects too. Typically the decline reason is insufficient sourcing or promotional. Reviewers should spend some time at AfD and learn how bad these issues have to be to merit deletion, also learn about wrinkles in notability policy. ~Kvng (talk) 13:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Legacypac, schools have to follow the same WP:CORP guidelines as every other organization. Primefac (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Hmm.....Primefac, no.As much as I would love that to be, we both know the current condition(s) in school AfDs.If you wish to re-in-force your RFC closure statement, which is supposedly non-understandable to a certain section of the community, AfDs ought to be the suitable venue.At any case, I'm accepting the draft and will strongly advice any other reviewer to do so, in cases of degree-awarding-instituitions et al. ~ Winged BladesGodric 03:37, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
So... because a small group of hard-headed editors refuse to accept the results of an RFC, we should just bury our hands in the sand and pretend it didn't happen? Primefac (talk) 15:00, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

AFC submission template[edit]

Apologies if this has been asked recently, but is there a reason why it's not made obvious to new users that if they're autoconfirmed they can move their article into mainspace by themselves? Jc86035 (talk) 17:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Because the point of the AFC process is to ask for a review. Primefac (talk) 19:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Examples of such a lie: "The sun rises in the east". "Sunrise". Those are actually a complete fabrication. The real answers are "The horizon gets lower in the east" and "Horizonfall". And don't get me started on "dialing" a cell phosne that has buttons instead of a dial or saying "One O'Clock" in a context where there are no clock faces involved.
A joke for pedants:
Q: How do you comfort someone with bad grammar skills?
A: There, their, they're.
--Guy Macon (talk) 01:19, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Sunrise comes with an implied reference frame.
I think newcomers should be treated as adults, and given the facts, not tricked into staying in the AfC cycle. The fact that most AfC submissions are spam or paid or just plain hopeless is poor justification for the poor welcome to the few wanted newcomers that wander in. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:27, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

I have come to favor telling people AfC is an optional process on occasion. It's not like this is secret info. If they move their crap page to mainspace other editors can apply mainspace tools like A7, AfD and PROD to it - we become unshackled from the obstructionists whole rule MfD and prevent the implementation of proper CSD criteria for drafts. Also occasionally there is a draft that is borderline notable but I'm not sure and don't want to have to defend it or sully my near perfect no deletions on my acceptance record. Legacypac (talk) 07:52, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Except they will get even blunter treatment at NPP where inexperienced users and newbies are paradoxically still allowed to tag pages for deletion and treat the place like a MMORPG. Shoving stuff from AfC onto NPP may help reduce the AfC backlog (probably not), but such pages could nevertheless be as quickly rejected at AfC as they would be at NPP but with door being slammed a bit more quietly. (Hmm... can one slam a door quietly?) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Can one slam a door quietly? One can close a door decisively and politely. “Sorry, this topic is not suitable for inclusion”. Do not include “but you are encourage to improve it and resubmit”. NPP is working ok, AfC is working horribly. The solution is not to send everything AfC to NPP any more than it is to send every poor draft to MfD. The solution is for AfC to stop doing what doesn’t work. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

If a user gets into AFC, concievably it's for 2 reasons: Either they're new, or they're wanting a second set of eyes to impartially review the content prior to being pushed into mainspace. Going through AFC gives the draft a little more clout (and a second person to call on to explain why it was pushed to mainspace). There's already far too much spam, one line stubs, marginally notable crap in mainspace. Getting a draft to hit a minimum of start/B-class is a great way to not increase the entropy already in mainspace. Hasteur (talk) 00:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, they are new, but they don’t freely choose to go there, there are enticements to take that path. These enticements to go to AfC and start a draft are detrimental to the better choice of improving existing content. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
@SmokeyJoe: you seem to be laboring under the fallacy that new users are required to get their experience by only submitting AFC drafts. Any user can get their experience by making changes to already existing pages (barring the usual exceptions). Hasteur (talk) 13:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Hasteur no not at all. I strongly believe that all users should get experience in mainspace before attempting a new draft. I observe that so many poor drafting attempts are by people with not editing contributions on any other page but their drafts. I think this is unfortunate. I think the solution is to tell all newcomers to edit mainspace first. I think AfC makes it too easy to ignore a lot of advice and go straight to creating a new draft. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:23, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

The only part of the rejection template that encourage resubmission says "You are encouraged to make improvements by clicking on the "Edit" tab at the top of this page" Since they evidently already know how to edit just say "If you can WP:OVERCOME the decline reason you may resubmit after fixing the identified issues." Will that satisfy User:SmokeyJoe? Legacypac (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Will that get rid of the big blue button? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
It's proposed change to the text of all decline templates. We would only get rid of the submit button on specific decline reasons or perhaps a "hopeless" decline. Legacypac (talk) 11:31, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I've taken to adding explicitly discouraging comments such as this one. Sometimes I come right out and say, Do not resubmit. But, yeah, an automated way to do this would be both easier on reviewers and, I think, kinder to the rejectee. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I started working on this this morning, rewording the text, making it easier to read, etc. Then I realized that we already do all of this on {{Afc decline}} (the notice that gets placed on a user talk page when their draft is declined). It gives four bullet points, all of which are useful and none of them "encourage" resubmission. With some minor tweaking, on drafts themselves it could read:
  • If you would like to continue working on the submission, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
  • If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
  • If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
  • You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.
If no one is seriously opposed to it, I'll convert the decline notice to use this text (or something similar) This might remove some of the ambiguity (and break up the gigantic wall of text that's currently in the decline notice). Primefac (talk) 15:27, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
"If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{ db-self }}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit." Can this be shorten, what does "believe" means , can we change to "convinced by reviewer comments", "Wikipedia standards ... further" = "cannot be included in Wikipedia", "you ..... text" = "Kindly Please add "{{ db-self }}" to the top of the draft text, "and click .... edit" = click the blue button. This should be shorten. Thanks. --Quek157 (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
one more for @Primefac:, can't we merge last 2 lines, for more help, you can go to either help desk or ask reviewer or IRC (with a warning not 3 at one go, it will be chaotic. Make it just the 1st line / 2nd line shorten / 3rd line. --Quek157 (talk) 19:43, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Cut the whole second dot point. It's not useful. Submitters who can read should be reading something else, their cleaning up things that don't need cleaning is wasting their time. Submitters who don't read won't read it anyway. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Reduce the third dot point to "Ask for help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk". Use no more than this wikimarkup.
Cut the whole fourth dot point. It's not useful to give multiple options for help, that creates more confusion that help. WP:TL;DR needs to be taken more seriously. Other methods of asking for help can be added at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:49, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I support this streamlining of the decline notice. If only it were possible to add another big blue button that said something on the order of "I'm sorry, I now understand that I can's get this draft to become an article, please delete it for me" but in a lot fewer words. Would this streamlining and pointing people to just AFCHD mean that the apparatus that generates invitations to the Teahouse could be removed as well? — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 05:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Forget teahouse and stop sending users to our talkpages for discussion. The Draft talk or our help desk is enough. I support a "request deletion" button. Legacypac (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

delete button bigger than resubmit button can??? --Quek157 (talk) 11:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Version 2[edit]

  • If you would like to continue working on the submission, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
  • If you have not resolved the issues listed above, your draft will be declined again and potentially deleted.
  • If you want more help, stop by the Articles for creation help desk or Wikipedia's live help channel. or the reviewer's talk page

In the spirit of avoiding "saccharine encouragement to improve and resubmit" I've included a new second bullet point. However I notice that the decline notice (next to the Resubmit button) says the same thing, so I'd be fine removing it. Two bullet points just seems... tiny. Primefac (talk) 12:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

no objection, and can we incoporate this also into the draft rejection itself (on the draft page) "You are encouraged to make improvements by clicking on the "Edit" tab at the top of this page. If you are the author of this draft, you may request deletion by clicking on the "Edit" tab at the top of this page, adding "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and saving. If you require extra help, please ask a question on the Articles for creation help desk, ask the reviewer that declined your submission, or get help at our live help chat from experienced editors. Find sources: "Yahaya Yakubu" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · HighBeam · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · The Wikipedia Library · NYT · WP reference." is way too long. Can this 3 bullet point be there. And the find sources are quite useless, why not here are some way to find sources and only news, newspaper, books only. I personally don't know how to use the rest and for IP users wikipedia library / JSTOR may not be there. This is not an Afd. Thanks for the improvements --Quek157 (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Um... that's exactly what we're discussing. Primefac (talk) 12:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
oh, self slap. but the sources part is still valid, if they submit nonsense hardly they will use jstor and the rest. Just to explore how exactly it is hard to find sources, I created one article yesterday with just 30 mins via Google search and news I will have 8 reliable independent sources. so I think that's where we want them. per consensus above can we remove the user talkpage and replace with draft talk? or else no one will know who replied what at where and potentially we'll have 3 different answers and conversations. Quek157 (talk) 13:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
I know can't but why not more blunt , if you search all these places and no reliable source come out this page will be tnt as no chance to surviveQuek157 (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Please take off the "reviewer's talk page" part. It just fragments the discussion and often I prefer to have another reviewer look anyway. Legacypac (talk) 14:25, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, although in principle asking a reviewer to explain more about the reasons for a decline sounds sensible I think it has more downsides: it can cause submitters to have multiple similar discussions on different reviewers pages; it can make it seam like it's submitter vs reviewer; unless others are WP:TPS its unlikely anyone will answer any general question, leaving people to wait till whenever; often I find they only come to ask for a re-review which I don't like as it seams like queue jumping. As long as questions are being answered in a reasonable time on the AfC help desk it would seam better to shove people that way. What would be good would be if when they clicked a link to post on the AfC help desk it automatically added the reviewers username in so they get pinged. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
I could maybe get a ping going on the HD link, but only for the draft decline notice (an AFCH rewrite would be needed for the user talk notice). Primefac (talk) 16:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Please also implement this on the template notice on the user page when we use the AFCH script. We must sound the same both ends too. I initially thought this is supposed to be on the user page as both set of instruction can be very confusing. For the user page notification, just a simple line such as "Please review the draft page for reasons why your draft have not been published" - then the user will simply see this, no need repetition. One more line (hopefully, but can't) is that "if you will like to, you can also publish it yourself if you are an autoconfirmed user". And quit the teahouse invite (though we can untick). --Quek157 (talk) 16:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
    This text is already on the user talk notification. People wanted an overhaul of the draft decline notice, which is what we're working on. Primefac (talk) 16:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Now the text reads "If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page. You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors." (see the strike out version for proposed improvements. --Quek157 (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
And some other reads "If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to User:Nevin pillai/sandbox and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window. If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to User:Nevin pillai/sandbox, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors." (on the user page). Depending on the decline reasons, we will give users a wide range of templates on their user page, we really need to sync all . --Quek157 (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
The user talk notice is substituted, so if any changes were made to the template it will not be reflected on the user talk pages where it had previously been used. Primefac (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
I see, those are what I got when I rejected 2 a few hours ago, the script need to have some time to reflect the changes too, just a comment, I also agree with your decline of G12, I am very half hearted about that. However, the title of that draft needs to change, I tried to move to draftspace and it is "prohibited" and needs an admin to do it --Quek157 (talk) 18:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Abid Boxer[edit]

Could somebody have a look at this. It's about as libellous as you can get, but which CSD can I use? KJP1 (talk) 07:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

If you don't think the sources offered support the allegations, you can speedy as an attack page WP:CSD#G10. If your tool doesn't blank the attack content automatically, you should do it manually. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 08:27, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
jmcgnh - Many thanks. Now done and an admin can take a look. He may well warrant a page, but it needs stronger sourcing than YouTube for those kind of allegations! KJP1 (talk) 08:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

General sanctions apply to pages related to blockchain and cryptocurrency[edit]

The Wikipedia community has authorized discretionary sanctions and a blanket 1RR for all pages related to cryptocurrency and blockchain, broadly construed. See Wikipedia:General sanctions/Blockchain and cryptocurrencies. This means you can (and should!) hand out warnings and seek administrator help promptly when dealing with those who submit promotional drafts about new initial coin offerings and cryptocurrencies. MER-C 16:06, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

A redirect from the draft will be there[edit]

When we publish an article, the redirect will be from draft to mainspace and I had to manually G6 it. This is quite a problem, can the script do a page move without leaving a redirect or we must also have page mover rights? Thanks --Quek157 (talk) 19:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Quek157, you should not be deleting (or requesting it) that draft redirects to their respective article be deleted. Primefac (talk) 19:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
clarified, thanks, Primefac but what does the redirect does? preventing double drafts? --Quek157 (talk) 19:55, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Well first off, redirects are CHEAP, and second off, there are likely a large number of incoming links onto that draft page, and so to not make it harder to find the eventual target we leave the redirect in place. Primefac (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the detailed explanation, understood --Quek157 (talk) 20:04, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
@Quek157: See WP:RDRAFT, and then Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 135#Draft Namespace Redirects if you want more detail. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 20:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
I see, missed all out during my break from editing here. --Quek157 (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Call to arms?[edit]

NPP managed to really reduce its backlog recently and I'm assuming the call to arms messages ("New Page Reviewer Newsletter") sent by MediaWiki helped. Would a similar thing help for AfC? Maybe encourage some of the inactive reviewers (but active editors) to come back and do just a one or two. Now the backlog is finally back under 1000 it seams like maybe just a few dozen more people picking of a few could help a lot. If not now maybe if we get better tools, then people hopefully could focus on article they are more comfortable with, and certainly editors interested in more specialised topics could help easier with the older ones. Anyway just a thought. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 20:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Not sure4734 total unreviewed pages now still at NPP, backlog still quite high Quek157 (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree from the current number it looks bad but just randomly going back to when I remember it being large I found this for when the backlog was 22,000 only a year ago. KylieTastic (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Speaking of specialized topics, has a "list of expertise" ever been considered? For instance, I don't know anything about medical material, or ISPs in India, but if the topic is about old music (any genre pre-1980, say, including ancient music), old radio shows, record labels, philately, insurance, or geographic features I can usually judge an article very quickly, and don't mind being pinged if such a topic seems difficult because of poor writing or sourcing. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 21:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
It would be good if certainly for specialized topics people could register availability for pinging, but I can see getting people to sign-up and keep lists up-to-date being difficult, but maybe it could work. KylieTastic (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
I put up my topic expertise on my userpage, maybe can ask those interested to put up also then anyone wanting drafts to be reviewed can go to the whole list of AFC reviewers and individually click on talkpage then see / ping? --Quek157 (talk) 23:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Placing your areas of interest on your userpage is well and good, but tying that together with WP:AFCP is probably a little much. It would be nice to have a page with topics listed, and names of active AfC participants under a given topic. Perhaps one of our technical wizards could write a bot removing names of editors who haven't edited in 6 months. This is just spaghetti against the wall right now. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 18:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
A list of what might be more familiarness would be a good idea. Especially, if we are expected to judge an articles notability. I might not know what to do with this Playwright from the 50s, but I'd know an awful lot regarding say a professional wrestler, and what makes them notable, or not. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is worth the effort to presort - especially if it requires a human to do it when the human could be reviwing pages. A reviewer familiar with WP:ARTIST, WP:NMUSIC, WP:NPOL, WP:ANYBIO WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:FOOTY can process most of the submissions. Make a judgement call on notability, assess WP:PROMO and check earwig under reviewer tools. If you don't feel comfortable making a call comment with your thoughts and move on. You can blast through the backlog. I don't bother gnoming and categorizing since there is an army of editors in mainspace that do that. Legacypac (talk) 13:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

A backlog drive was discussed here in recent months and the idea was not shot down. No one took the reins though. ~Kvng (talk) 00:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

How old is very old[edit]

I think it's time to change "very old" to be 21 days plus. There is only about 230 pages 21+ days now, the need to distinguish between 6 and 8 weeks is not that great and it will save us many clicks back to the "weeks" categories after reviewing a page because we can just hit "very old" I think we can beat back the backlog soon. Legacypac (talk) 13:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I've split this into a separate section because it's unrelated to the above section. I am declining your request; simply because we have empty categories doesn't mean we have to get rid of them. Just because you don't need to distinguish between 6 and 8 weeks doesn't mean that everyone feels the same. The whole reason I split out the categories was to more accurately report and represent the backlog. Primefac (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Well a while ago you changed very old out to 9 weeks+. Can we move it back to 7 or 8 weeks again so very old is not empty most of the time? As we further reduce it can be moved again. Legacypac (talk) 14:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Very old is now 2+ months, which is a nice, round number. There's no reason for very old to be 1.5 months. I needed to move it out that far because it was the only accurate way to assess the backlog.
The old backlog used to have "broken" as a condition when there were more than 10000 drafts. Would we ever get to that point? No, but we still listed it. Similarly, after we clear out the 5+ week categories we might not ever use them again, but we might. There is no point in throwing away a useful tool simply because you "might not" need it again. Primefac (talk) 15:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Removal from the list[edit]

I have just removed Legacypac from the AFCP list. This was not a decision I make lightly, and one I genuinely would like further discussion on, but I feel that the concerns I and others have expressed on multiple occasions are falling on deaf ears and it cannot continue.

Their current talk page includes queries regarding their review speed (which earlier today was seven accepts in ten minutes), questionable redirect practices (Special:Diff/842528746), and their archives contain more than a few requests to be more careful when reviewing drafts (in particular with respect to copyrights and bad advice). A look through the history is also worthwhile, given that some of the complaints were simply removed (which is their prerogative, but makes finding old discussions harder).

I know that Legacy is one of our highest-count reviewers, but that does not mean they are exempt from scrutiny. They repeatedly have admitted to playing fast and loose with the guidelines, including accepting articles simply for the fact that they weren't able to find a good reason to delete them as a draft (and then allowing them to be AFDd instead). There's currently a bug where sometimes a draft doesn't end up unpatrolled when it hits the article space, and I genuinely have no idea how many pages Legacy has accepted that have since not been seen by a reviewer. Either way, I know that I and multiple other users have spent an inordinate amount of time double-checking their work when we could be doing better things like giving proper reviews. They claim a very high accept-to-delete ratio but then there are AFDs like this where it is clear there was not the due diligence given and likely the high volume is masking the bad apples.

My interpretation of Legacy's actions since having their tban lifted in March is to pointedly and intentionally follow their own personal guidelines with respect to AFC submissions, flaunting or blatantly ignoring the rules just to show they can. I consider it disruptive editing, and until something is done about it I feel they should not be reviewing drafts. We might have a backlog, but that is not a reason to dump more work on other editors to clear it slightly faster. Primefac (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

  • I too have been keeping a close eye on his work and given the CSDs, overlooking of copy vio, and just plain spam, I agree with this decision. I'm sure the argument will be thrown around about his good outweighing the bad, and honestly, I would of agreed before this recent backlog rampage he's been on. But, being in the position of cleaning up his messes is exhausting, and I feel a break is needed for his and our sanity. Drewmutt (^ᴥ^) talk 17:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Commenting well after this discussion started - if Drewmutt has become exhasted cleaning up after me they must be very low energy since given the few pages they touched after I touched them [7] Legacypac (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I've not been very active at AfC of late, but I've also run across a few articles accepted by Legacypac that clearly should not have been accepted. The fundamental premise of accepting an article is "If this article were nominated for deletion at WP:AFD, would it be likely to survive?". Accepting a draft effectively to see what happens at AfD is not a valid accept criteria, and the fact that this has been a persistent issue even after concerns have been directed at Legacypac is a serious concern. Reviewing the content and the sources of a draft and making a judgment call about it's realistic chances at AfD is a prerequisite to accepting or declining a draft. Regarding the Queryen submission, accepting a draft then telling someone else to check the sources once it's been accepted and then sent to AfD is simply unacceptable. If Legacypac agreed with the nomination for deletion, then it's quite clear that proper care was not exercised in accepting the draft. As this is a persistent issue, with concerns raised and not acted on, I have to support the removal. Clearly Legacypac should spend time in other areas of the project where they may be more successful. Waggie (talk) 17:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
I also want to add that it's extremely confusing and WP:BITEY to new users to have these things happen to drafts when the author doesn't understand our policies and guidelines very well, nor the reasons why someone would accept their draft, then support it's deletion, or redirect their article elsewhere without any comment. We get helpees in the IRC help channel who are extremely confused and frustrated about these things and it only makes more work for everyone else when an experienced editor doesn't follow guidelines. Waggie (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Firstly I'm really not aware of the quality of Legacypacs or anyone else's work as I don't see others work much, so in many ways it's difficult to comment. I had detected a certain direct bluntness that I don't have, but I think too a degree is needed at AfC as many, including myself, will pass over stuff that a tough call, or we wouldn't have the very old. I would also say though that I really don't care for the X accepts in Y minutes argument in itself, it should only count if any of them were wrong. If even one was a bad call then you can say well since you did X accepts in Y minutes you should slow down, but as a stand-alone complaint I don't like it. They could be articles they have been watching and just doing the final updates on each (AGF). I haven't checked them, but I do believe someone should find an actual error before calling foul. However the redirect and Queryen AfD are problematic. Personally I would prefer these things be discussion first then any restrictions, rather than the other way around. The loss of Legacypac will have a huge impact as they have been doing a lot more than anyone else ('recent' stats for those that care: 1074 accept/declines and 510 accepts), but I admit I have no metric on quality. My biggest concern is not the backlog size growing, but that the difficult calls will sit without any feedback. I've found submissions that have had no feedback at all for 7+ weeks, and that really isn't fair on the submitter... WP:BITEY is really bad, but being ignored for months is worse IMHO. It really feels like we need a better way to deal with old requests, maybe a DfD "Drafts for discussion" where once they get to a certain age it's more like AfD (but without sending them to it as accused here) and the community builds a consensus. If it's not a clear yes/no in x weeks then consensus would seam to be needed rather than expecting an individual to step up and maybe be smacked down. Just my 2 penneth KylieTastic (talk) 19:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • For discussion purpose, I may not seem to be the most impartial as I had personally have some disagreements (but resolved) with Primefac. I feel that WP:BITEY seems too broadly used, I am on the receiving end of it in my first article (more details see People's Park Centre, I don't think that anyone had been biten worse than me, a 242 edit 5 month old editor, having created the first article in mainspace, within not 5 but 3 minutes I get slapped with a G11 and then within 4 hours I get threatened with an AFD) so I totally emphatize with the situation. However, per KylieTastic, not knowing the outcome of article IMO is as bad as that. I had reviewed LegacyPac last 1000 edits, and picked a few to sample (those accepted per WP:NFOOTY / WP:NHOSPITALS / WP:NCORP) and scrutinized the sources. Most are accurate. The only thing is that there is no tagging / rating or etc which may not be in the flowchart of the AFCH script. To be fair to all sides, and to prevent this being a WP:AN case, a hold of AFCH script for a period of time and a RFC maybe more appropriate than a complete revocation. We can then see the edvidences and etc. Particular interest is that the survival rate (i.e. AFD / PROD / CSD) in mainspace vis-a-vis other reviewers. I had one review of Legacypac acceptance, that was BCA Academy, @The Mighty Glen: had tagged it for G12, and it was a full 89% via earwig copy vio + it is a paid editing from BCA Academy without proper COIN disclosure. @Black Kite: helped me to decline the G12, suppressed the copyvio and turn it into a redirect to where it is. But I will like to see more examples to determine whether this is the exception rather than the norm. --Quek157 (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

There is no data showing my accepts are getting deleted in any rate higher than anyone else but Primefac is willing to risk their reputation making a hasty decision without discussion with me. And who is Waggie? They never brought any concerns to me but seem free to judge.

My acceptence criteria (as I've well publicized and advocated others follow) is: 1. Is the topic notable? Preferably incontestably notable. 2. Is the material reasonably referenced? Inline referenced especially for BLPs. 3. is there a CSD that should be applied here? 4. Does it pass earwig and a common sense test for copyvio? If a page passes these four tests I accept it. If not I reject it. With a strong knowledge of applicable policy many pages can be quickly processed.

Since the person making the accusation needs to provide the evidence,or suffer any resulting consiquences, I'll wait for someone to back up the assertions here. I'm busy enjoying myself in Mexico :) Legacypac (talk) 20:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Legacypac, Primefac provided several examples of concerning behavior, did you see those? So, if that's your acceptance criteria, what happened with this draft and subsequent AfD? Why would you accept a draft, then immediately agree with it's deletion? That makes no sense if it met with your acceptance criteria. As far as who I am, I've been around for a couple years, and been involved with AfC on and off for quite awhile. We've even interacted in a few spots. No, I've never confronted you directly about any of these issues, but others have and I don't have to as well in order to register my concerns here. Either way, like I suggested above, perhaps AfC isn't the best fit for you, there are many areas of the project that need attention. Waggie (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm tired and a tad (lot) drunk, but I like evidence in discussions this is a list of Legacypac last 1000 moves and and quick drunk count was 14 now deleted from main-space, of which one was Queryen. Now not all moves were AfC accepts, but most, so is that what we are talking about a 1.4% fail rate? If we are expected to miss judge less than 1.4% I'm going to not accept anything but the blindingly obvious. Maybe I'm missing something, and maybe more that a tad too much beer, but I think we need more facts (diffs, lists, whatever), not just point at Queryen. KylieTastic (talk) 23:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Hi KylieTastic, I hope that your beverage of choice is tasty tonight and forgiving tomorrow morning. Ok.. So, the concerns I have are poor review practices, specifically accepts and the general rate of review. Some examples have already been pointed out, and Legacypac had already had a conversation with Primefac on the topic, all linked to by Primefac. Some more evidence? Easy, I looked at the list of moves you linked to. Second in that list you provide is Adil_Lari, a draft with entirely offline sources which Legacypac accepted only 1 minute after accepting Alain Njoh Njoh Mpondo, a draft with 10 sources, which was only 2 minutes after accepting Jay Gambetta which was a draft where the only sources actually discussing the subject were primary sources. I'm not cherry-picking here, these are three accepts in a row.
Legacypac can find, read, and evaluate seven offline foreign-language sources in less than 60 seconds, open and read 10 online sources in less than 120 seconds? Primary sources are now acceptable for establishing notability? This was at the top of the list in the link you provided. I'm sorry, but it's clear to me that he's not properly reviewing sources. He clearly understands how to review, as his stated acceptance criteria are pretty close to the reviewing instructions. AfC isn't a race and we might as well not have AfC if reviewers are blindly accepting drafts without actually reviewing the sources. There's always a backlog at AfC and we should not be declining good articles, or accepting bad ones just because of the pressure to relieve that backlog.
As far as evidence regarding BITEYness, I can't provide logs for the confused helpees on IRC, but trust me when I say that I've fielded some very confused newbies who have no idea what's going on, and it places the helpers in a very difficult position and reflects very poorly on Wikipedia. It IS best to "ignore" a draft, rather than confuse people, because if someone is frustrated, we can truthfully and easily say there is a backlog, apologize to them, and try to work on the backlog a little harder. Explaining why an admin deleted their draft right after it was accepted is a lot harder. I do agree that there's issues with some drafts getting passed over due to them possibly being more difficult to review, but that's no excuse for not fully reviewing a draft before accepting it. Waggie (talk) 00:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Re primary sources, Jay Gambetta is an academic and so exempt from the general guidelines if the subject meets WP:PROF, which he easily seems to; I could assess that article in ~30 seconds, aside from running it through Earwig. It could do with some of the promotional wording toning down but wouldn't meet G11 in my opinion. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Waggie I don't see you or anyone else trying to CSD or AfD your examples. I've love to see a list of this drafts that are getting immediately CSD'd because I watch every page I touch and I would have noticed that just like I notice the gnoming and categorization that follows an accept. If someone is complaining about having their Draft deleted and my name comes up it would be because I applied the CSD right before or after declining their SPAM or copyvio, not because it was deleted. You know you need to account for your allegations right? Legacypac (talk) 00:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
I fully intend to AfD where appropriate, but haven't set aside time for it yet. What, precisely, do you mean by "account for [my] allegations"? I'm just not sure what you mean by that. As was requested by KylieTastic, I've given very specific examples regarding my concerns, clear examples where articles were not properly reviewed. Unless you are saying that you can actually evaluate 5 offline foreign-language sources in 60 seconds or less and that primary sources are acceptable for establishing notability? I'd love to know how you got access to those offline sources so quickly, because it'd make other reviewers jobs much easier. Waggie (talk) 01:34, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
  • All I'm seeing is anecdotal evidence of a few bad calls, but given the sheer volume of drafts Legacypac has been going through, it is expected that anyone would make a mistake on a few of them. The 'speed of reviewing' argument is invalid as you you have no idea if he had all those articles open in multiple tabs reviewing them simultaneously (I often do this while reviewing at NPP, so you'd probably see similar stuff in my log). I haven't seen any evidence that LP's reviewing is any worse than would be expected from the average reviewer (in fact from the numbers above, I expect it would be better). In the absence of a much more systemic problem, I'd recommend putting him back on the list and tell him to slow down a bit (if he was indeed reviewing at that speed). If you guys want to kick him out, we could use his help over at NPP. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 02:02, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
The more I look at his Move Log, the less I see any problems, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nazmudin Rayani was a clear failure on behalf of AfD, as the Order of Canada clearly meets criteria #2 of WP:ANYBIO. In any case, LP clearly isn't at fault there. Nearly all of the remaining examples were articles tagged as G11. While I can't view deleted articles, I find it hard to believe that these were truly 'unambiguous' advertising or promotion, and suspect that these examples probably come down to a bit of a difference of opinion (this CSD criteria can be rather subjective). In any case, even if all of those examples were bad calls (and there are a couple bad calls, such as Queryen), there aren't enough of them to be considered a systemic or significant issue given the volume of drafts reviewed. Lets not let this become a witch hunt. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 04:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Helper script does not work[edit]

Helper script does not work for me. I have activated it in Preferences > Gadgets. I use Google Chrome, ver 66.0 (32-bit) in Windows 7. My user name is approved. --AntanO 02:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I have solved the issue. --AntanO 02:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)