Wikipedia:Reference desk/all

Wikipedia Reference Desk – All recent questions	Search Wikipedia:
WP:RD/ALL redirects here. You may also be looking for Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, Wikipedia:Redirect or Wikipedia:Deletion review. This page lists all the recent questions asked on the Wikipedia reference desk by category. To ask a new question, please select one of the categories below. To answer a question, click on the "edit" link beside the question. Return to the Reference Desk main page... For information on any topic, choose a category for your question:
Computers and IT Science Mathematics Humanities Computing, information technology, electronics, software and hardware Biology, chemistry, physics, medicine, geology, engineering and technology Mathematics, geometry, probability, and statistics History, politics, literature, religion, philosophy, law, finance, economics, art, and society Language Entertainment Miscellaneous Archives Spelling, grammar, word etymology, linguistics, language usage, and requesting translations Sports, popular culture, movies, music, video games, and TV shows Subjects that don't fit in any of the other categories Old questions are archived daily Help desk Village pump Ask general questions about using Wikipedia Ask about specific policies and operations of Wikipedia Help manual MediaWiki handbook Citing Wikipedia Resolving disputes Virtual classroom Information and instructions on every aspect of Wikipedia Information about the software that runs Wikipedia How to cite Wikipedia as a reference For resolving issues between users An advanced guide on everything Wikipedia See also the Wikipedia department directory
The following images are being used under the GNU FDL and/or the CC-BY-SA license: P computing.svg, P physics.svg, P mathematics.svg, P question.svg, P art.png, P literature.svg, P music.svg, P archive.svg, P Airplane.png

May 10

Windows 10 vs Windows 11.

I have dealt with computers and their OSs for many years, but I never had anything more inconvenient than the newest Windows 11, I am used to work with file trees and file folders, but here I cannot find the "C" folder. The impression I have is that such a chaotic system was made deliberately but why? Suggestions will be appreciated. I plugged Inyo the computer an external hard drive but how to find it in the software? It is all total absurd 107.191.2.10 (talk)a 107.191.2.10 (talk) 23:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Open File Explorer on your machine. On the left side there should be a navigation pane. Click on the "This PC" button, after which a selection of connected drives and partitions will appear, which will definitely include your OS drive (C:)

Alternatively, you could hit the Windows key and type in "Disk Management" and click on "Create and format hard disk partitions." Afterwards, a much more familiar interface will open (I am pretty sure this is lifted straight from Windows 7), allowing you to open all folders by right clicking on them and selecting "Explore."

Hope this helps. Hanoi2020 (talk) 08:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

May 12

Longest computer-chess game

What's the longest chess game (i.e. the one with the most moves) on record between computers, not counting moves after one side could've claimed a threefold-repetition draw? Would the answer change if known endgame solutions retroactively replaced the fifty-move rule where available? NeonMerlin 05:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's any sensible answer to this. A poorly written program could play essentially forever. It wouldn't be hard to write a program that just makes random moves without attempting to checkmate the other side's king. Playing it against itself, it could probably play for thousands of moves before one side accidentally stumbles on a checkmate. CodeTalker (talk) 18:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so what if we consider only those games where both programs have beaten the World Chess Champion in a publicly recorded match without a handicap in their favor, or have beaten in such a match a program that had done so in such a match, or so on transitively? Or only those whose FIDE-equivalent Elo ratings are at least 2800 based on human-computer matches that someone's bothered to provide enough hardware for and publish the moves from? NeonMerlin 01:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I will see the wrong direction in there as the (poor) program will easily crumble in on itself if not designed to severely enlarge repetition paths. Prospective targeting needs to be entirely missing to not arrive early to a simple tic-tac-toe configuration, if pawns are designed to look on to always forward they are often only postponing a clear view but, related to this there's also a notable level of subjectivity. As a result, and ratings being about expectations, what could be the use trying to hardcode them? --Askedonty (talk) 01:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

May 13

Punch card loopback

Did any of the punch-card-based computers have a mechanism to move cards from the output deck to an input deck? Was this used for array indexing before indirect addressing was implemented? Did the cards contain the addresses or the data? NeonMerlin 20:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe so. However there were quite a number of places which had all their data on cards and used various arrangements of card sorters, adders, multipliers and suchlike for their computing needs. See Unit record equipment. I think loading and storing via a register were implemented fairly early on. However there were commercial machines where they for instance wrote the return address into a location where a subroutine would jump to it at the end before jumping to the subroutine. Recursive routines and stacks came later! NadVolum (talk) 21:42, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It is not clear what it means for a computer to be "punch-card-based". With very few exceptions, all mainframe computers could use punched cards for I/O until in the eighties. The readers and punches were usually separate peripheral devices but some models, such as the IBM 1442, were a combination. Each card that was read ended up in one of its two output stackers.  --Lambiam 17:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

May 15

Python pre and post for loop terminology

I'm having trouble finding a reference for the proper terminology of two kinds of for loops in Python. The first one is the normal: for x in a: x+4 (I know this doesn't do anything, it is for this example) The second one is kind of backwards: x+4 for x in a What is the name of the for loop when the calculation comes before the "for" keyword? 75.136.148.8 (talk) 14:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The second one is a list comprehension, not a for loop: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/datastructures.html#tut-listcomps Variouspotatoes (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I didn't think to jump to the data structures section of the documentation to look for it. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It is only a list comprehension when enclosed between square brackets. Enclosed in curly braces, it becomes a set comprehension.  --Lambiam 14:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

And in round parentheses a generator expression. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

May 16

payment aggregators and payment gateways

Is it accurate to categorize payment aggregators and payment gateways as payment infrastructure providers or payment system providers? What distinction would be more precise in describing their role in the payment ecosystem? Grotesquetruth (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

May 17

I can't pass "Fundamentals of Data Structures" (FDS) and "Advanced Data Structures and Algorithm Analysis" (ADS) no matter how hard I try

I am having a very serious issue with the two aforementioned courses in university (for context, note that I am in university in China, and I am Canadian). I can't understand the content at all, especially when it mentions anything mathematical or mentions a complex algorithm or data structure with names that I can't even remember. (It has nothing to do with the language, since the course content of these two courses are in English, which is my native language.) FDS started out fine, with the basic lists, stacks and queues, which I am more than familiar with and can confidently answer any questions about, but when it got to various kinds of trees, I can't remember them or any of the required algorithms that are to be used on them. I already failed the FDS exam twice. On the previous attempt, I fell short of the passing grade by just ONE multiple choice question, which made me very frustrated. ADS is even harder, with mathematical formulas relating to the algorithms that I don't understand at all. What makes it worse is that although there are two opportunities to attempt the FDS exam every year (in the fall and spring semester), there is only one opportunity to attempt the ADS exam every year (in the spring semester only). I didn't have any issues with any other courses such as C, C++, web programming, computer networking, information security, large-scale databases, etc., but these two courses are giving me stress. What's worse is that there is a 6-year limit (including taking a year off), so I can't take a break from university and come back to this any time I want, and my dad, who funds my studies, is threatening to stop doing so, since he said to me (in Chinese), "If you can't pass this required course, then your entire program has no point for you, since you can't graduate without it. You'd be better off going to a [community] college back in Canada, where the content is easier, and I can stop paying rent every month and being so far away from my family, and you can be closer to your friends back in Canada [with sarcasm]." What should I do to learn the data structures and algorithms that are completely obscure to me and pass the course? This is the only course that is stopping me from studying normally, because it seems that when I even try to rewatch the course content, I still am unable to understand it.

As a little aside that is completely unrelated to the academic problems, it seems that my dad has a drinking problem. He keeps buying large packs of beer despite my requests for him to stop, using excuses like "it's on sale" (Taobao perpetually displays it as on sale) or "it's nostalgic" (since the beer is Harbin beer, the city where he grew up), and I often see large quantities of empty beer cans piling up, and because of this, he has become very short-tempered, which negatively affects my mental health. What can I do about this issue? Félix An (talk) 03:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Your second question is not related to computing. Intervening in someone's addiction when they are in denial is generally almost impossible. I am not familiar with Chinese culture, but I know filial piety, showing the utmost respect to one's parents, is a corner stone of traditional Chinese culture, making any potential steps even more problematic than they are in modern Western society. About the only thing I can think of is discussing your concerns with other older relatives in the hope that they can help.

Your first question is perhaps also not directly about computing and more about learning. You wrote you had no problem with C and C++; does this mean you can write programs in these languages (or in Java or Python)? In that case, I suggest that you write code for implementing various kinds of trees, such as AVL trees, red–black trees and 2–3 trees, or whichever kinds are treated in the FDS course. It will help to make the theory come to life. Even if you ultimately fail this course, the exercise will improve your skills and thereby your chances in your future life.

Do you use a textbook for the ADS course? You write that you do not understand the mathematical formulas. Do you mean you do not understand the meaning of a formula such as $O(n\log n),$ or merely fail to see how it relates to a given algorithm? Does the course material just present the formulas, or does it show how they are derived? If not, you can probably find the derivations or proofs online, sometimes here on Wikipedia. Studying the derivations until you could present them yourself to a fellow student will definitely help to understand and remember the formulas.  --Lambiam 10:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

For one thing, I think you should take FDS and do well in it before taking ADS. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

May 18

What happened??

Formerly, when I did a Google News search clicking on "Tools" allowed me to sort the articles by relevance or date. Now, however, this is gone; clicking on "Tools" just doesn't do anything. What happened?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Georgia guy Are you on mobile or web? You haven't given enough information. Also, note that some things you see on Google these days are more experimental, sometimes, they won't be there for long. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 18:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The web. Georgia guy (talk) 18:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

May 19

GNOME issue with gestures

Hello, I recently installed both Vanilla GNOME and Ubuntu GNOME on my Linux Mint machine lately to try out the gestures, but they don't seem to work on my computer's touchpad. I tried the three and four finger swipes, but they don't work. I tried disabling tap to click. Still nothing. The model is HP Pavilion dv6t-6c00, with Beats Audio, 8 GB RAM, no AMD Graphics, and came with Windows 7 Home Premium preinstalled. (Also, GNOME just doesn't look like how modern GNOME screenshots look, the top right menu looks very different.) Any help would be appreciated. If you reply here, please ping me. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 17:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

More info: I am using Wayland and a Synaptics touchpad, which should meet the requirements. GDM3 is also set as the default display manager on my computer. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 21:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Never mind, I figured it out. My touchpad doesn't support gestures. *oh well*

Resolved

thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 02:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

*sighs* thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 02:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

May 21

Unicode strikethrough

I've been trying to do strikethrough with Unicode. I'm finding that the composed characters are to the right of where they "should" be, and somewhat too low, see the examples on our article, and in the combining character article, these are not in the correct position to be a traditional strikethrough. In fact the tools I've used work best if the struck through text is preceded with a "space strikethrough" (and no strikethrough at the end?). Is there a better solution in Unicode? All the best: Rich Farmbrough 21:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC).

Implementations of combining characters tend to be plagued by bugs. The precise appearance, including positioning and kerning, is not regulated by Unicode but by the rendering engine of the browser, using its font tables for the specific font. Here are examples of plain and struck-through vertical bars in a few typefaces, using U+0335.

Times New Roman:

||||||||||

|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵

Courier:

||||||||||

|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵

Courier New:

||||||||||

|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵

Comic Sans MS:

||||||||||

|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵|̵

For me, using Firefox on macOS, the effects are quite varied across these fonts. Using Safari, the effects are also varied, but markedly different. The widths of ⟨|⟩ and ⟨|̵⟩ differ for each typeface on Safari. The struck-through bars are narrower for Comic Sans MS. Not only are they 226% (!) wider than the vanilla bars in Times New Roman, but they are even 33% taller, which I find quite bizarre.  --Lambiam 10:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

May 23

Organizing text and data

I'm working on a project that would go lot more smoothly if I could get myself organized. What I've got is pieces of text that I need to be able to classify in various ways and apply attribute tags to (e.g. this text has the tags applied for "Religion" and "Finances" while this other one has only "Animals", etc.). I would normally use Excel for something of this scale, but the text pieces aren't really appropriate for stuffing into a cell (and some have particular formatting I'd like to preserve, which again doesn't work great with Excel). At this point, my plan is to indeed do it in Excel, but hyperlink the text pieces, which is clunky at best. Any other options that spring to mind? There will be hundreds of records, which is large enough to need organization, but not zillions and zillions and it's a personal project, so I'm not looking to spend a lot. Any programs spring to mind as appropriate? Matt Deres (talk) 14:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

You could run a local copy of MediaWiki (the operation of which you are already very familiar), using categories for the classification. It's an issue if you want to produce automated reports (e.g. "list all the text that is in category X"), but a small php script should be able to do that. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 21:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I would personally use MediaWiki. It is easy to install and use. But, you are describing a common use-case for NoSQL databases. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 11:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Are these pieces of text each in separate files, or in one large file, or are they divided across several files, some of which contain several classifiable items? Almost all approaches require that you already have, or create, a unique identifier for each item you want to classify. Suppose you are done with the job of classifying. Presumably you want to make some use of the fruits of your labour. What kind of searches/queries/other uses do you envisage? The best approaches may depend on the answers. There is a risk of us trying to solve an XY problem.  --Lambiam 11:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Fair questions. The use case is for organizing folklore snippets in such a way that I can 1) keep them organized, 2) apply different kinds of tags to them (source location, source date, topics, etc.) for ease of grouping them in various ways, and 3) ideally find ways to connect related bits (e.g. this piece and that piece are likely variations on the same theme). Some of the snippets are literally on scraps of paper, others are from printed sources, still others are from online sources (documents, web sites), and some are audio files I'll need to transcribe. My earlier point about formatting being important is because, especially for the transcriptions of the audio stuff, I'd like to be able to show stresses, pauses, emphasized words or phrases, that kind of thing. Nothing crazy (italics and bolding, mostly), but Excel's ability to word process within a cell is extremely rudimentary; it's just not meant for that work. Matt Deres (talk) 17:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

Insect repellent

Do all pyrethrin analogs have broad-spectrum insect repellent properties in less-than-lethal concentrations? 2601:646:8082:BA0:CD56:E11E:9CF:F450 (talk) 01:56, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It says here that "Before the emergence of resistance, an early hut trial in The Gambia concluded that permethrin was the most repellent pyrethroid, followed by λ-cyhalothrin, deltamethrin, and lastly cypermethrin". This suggests that there must be some in the list of 29 examples in the pyrethroid article that are much worse repellents. I would guess that the stronger the odor, the better the repellent effect. Abductive (reasoning) 08:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Pyrethroids were designed to kill insects and are used, for example, to control malaria-carrying mosquitoes by treating bed-nets. In this and other agricultural applications, repellence is an unwanted property particularly if the non-lethal effect allows insect populations to build up resistance. There are, of course, compounds designed to act only as insect repellents, of which the best known are probably DEET and citronellal. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! So, not all of them, but many of the common ones -- which is great for me (they're painting my front door today, so I have to enforce a no-fly zone outside it :-( ) And yes, last time I've personally witnessed the repellent effect of 200 ppm deltamethrin against Papilio multicaudata (or maybe it was a large P. rutulus, but my money is on the former) and P. eurymedon, as well as multiple Apocrita species! (The repellent effect, indeed, is what I'm looking for here -- I don't care if the bugs survive or die, I just don't want them to fly into the house or get anywhere near me!) 2601:646:8082:BA0:59E2:271:87C3:F3E (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, one of the two cans I used today had a mixture of prallethrin and cyfluthrin which was specifically formulated as an insect repellent, so we can add these two to the list as well -- although, from personal observation, their repellent effect was actually less than that of deltamethrin! 2601:646:8082:BA0:448D:8CB2:2FBC:B6C7 (talk) 00:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

May 12

ecological spray bottle

does anyone know if there are any glass or metal spray bottles with bioplastic triggers and straw available anywhere in existence? i really want to go plastic free for my succulent business ninosckasnaturals.com 2600:1700:9758:7D90:B406:C016:3BC0:D48B (talk) 06:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe one of those old-fashioned perfume misters with the rubber squeeze bulb? I doubt very much that there is a mass-produced non-plastic alternative spray bottle apparatus. Abductive (reasoning) 21:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

There are pump-type plant misters (e.g. metal or glass). --136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

P.s.: LOOPSEED sells stainless steel plant mister spray bottles in various finishes, well-suited for succulents (search online for details). --136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC) -- [edit: 22:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)]

origin of the formula for LC frequency

In electricity, properties known as inductance and capacitance together can resonate. The formula for the frequency of resonance is 1/(2*Pi*SQRT(L*C)). Who first published this formula? ```` Dionne Court (talk) 06:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Somewhat after Laplace 1800 and before Poincarre, 1899 with a strong suspicion that the ubiquitous Maxwell might have done it. Greglocock (talk) 06:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

According to LC_circuit#History it was the ubiquitous Lord Kelvin in 1853. --Wrongfilter (talk) 07:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. That man did everything. Greglocock (talk) 23:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It does say that, but it is incorrect, which is why I posted here. Kelvin derived an equation to describe the transient response (response to a one-time shock excitation). However the article io LC_circuit#History gave as a reference an article in the Bell System Technical Journal, 1941, pages 415-453. I have now obtained this paper and it gives James Clerk Maxwell as the first to give the resonance formula (in a different but mathematically equivalent form), in a letter published in Philosphosical Magazine 1868. I will try and get this letter. ```` Dionne Court (talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It is this letter.  --Lambiam 12:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It's from the right guy and via the correct other guy, but it has no math in it at all. It is not therefore the earliest statement of the resonance formula.

I'm looking for the fist statement of the formula as given in modern textbooks, i.e.,

f = 1/(2π(LC)^½).

It is a trivial exercise in algrbra to convert Maxwell's form into the standard modern form, but I would like to know when the modern form was first give. Dionne Court (talk) 00:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The section entitled Mathematical Theory of the Experiment, an enclosure to the letter immediately following it on page 361, definitely contains some maths. On page 363 we see the equation ${\text{CL}}n^{2}=1,$ which results in an amplitude that, Maxwell writes, "is the greatest effect which can be produced with a given velocity". In this formula, the "velocity" $n$ is what is now more commonly denoted with the Greek letter $\omega .$  --Lambiam 06:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

p 540 onwards in Mathematical and Physical Papers, Volume 1 William Thomson Baron Kelvin University Press, 1882 - Mathematics - 619 pages, which is in google books, certainly discusses oscillatory behavior and time between peaks but I don't think it explicitly states f=1/(2pi*sqrt(L*C)). Particularly equation 7 where his A is modern L. Greglocock (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

May 14

Cranial size and Pb poisoning

Hello, can lead poisoning affect cranial size?Rich (talk) 05:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes.^{[1] [2] [3]} --136.54.106.120 (talk) 11:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

May 15

They see me rollin', they hatin...

Question for you guys. Is there any animal whose primary method of locomotion is curling into a ball and rolling head over heels to get around? Rather than running or walking. Because I think some woodlice do it (faster for them to roll then run), but I'm not 100% sure. Iloveparrots (talk) 03:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Do fictional animals count? --136.54.106.120 (talk) 03:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Terrestrial locomotion #Rolling may be of interest. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 03:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how that could ever be a primary means of locomotion, but see also Category:Rolling animals. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Hedgehogs do it to escape from predators when threatened. 2601:646:8082:BA0:BC05:6EA8:F933:9E6D (talk) 10:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Hedgehogs roll up for protection, not for locomotion. (Ditto for the woodlice mentioned by the OP). Iapetus (talk) 11:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen a hedgehog roll outside of a video game. But then again, I've only ever seen hedgehogs in real life about three times. Iloveparrots (talk) 22:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Hedgehogs do not purposely roll when in a defensive ball. They "huff", which makes them bounce, forcing their quills into whatever is attacking them. That bounce could cause a roll, but it isn't on purpose. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 13:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

See Rotating locomotion in living systems. 2605:B100:34D:46C3:61A4:6B17:A082:3780 (talk) 12:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I have encountered assertions that Giant pandas, when sitting in a bamboo thicket on a slope, will sometimes roll a short distance rather than get up and walk, but this would need confirmation from a reliable source, and in any case would not be a primary means of locomotion. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 19:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

A giant panda is rolling head first in this video: Panda Discovers Something Interesting. They roll about a lot too, for various reasons. Modocc (talk) 23:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

What's the max depth of the Baltic, Black and Azov brim?

The depth where it stops being connected to the World Ocean 50% of the time (connected only by seepage through porous solids like silt not counting as connected). As the brim can erode, shift if the water's removed, be a V-notch in a ridge etc and even if it's dredged wide, straight and flat it might not be legal to lightly touch the silt so this might not round to the same number of feet as the deepest draft ship that's allowed at least 50% of the Metonic cycle, or how much sea level would have to drop to make it a lake 50% of the time. Also what would the depth be if the strait bottom wasn't landscaped? The Turkish Straits are pretty deep by ship standards maybe they aren't landscaped? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

They wouldn't need to be "landscaped", the Bosphorous is typically about 60 m deep with a 40 m sill towards its southern end, although the Asian side of the strait at that point is somewhat shallower (about 27 m) - see Siddall et al. (2004). Mikenorton (talk) 19:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Right I didn't think they would. Unless the depth of the rim's now artificial by more than a foot due to sinking accidents(s), full or partial intentional blockages or explosion(s) (possibly to clear some of the previous)? Or maybe it's still the natural rock or sediment accumulation-erosion surface? I don't know if the Baltic and Azov brim are unaffected by human landscaping. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

May 17

What would cause these 'dark area' blemishes on an LCD monitor?

See this photo: https://ibb.co/mz8vQh0

This is my Asus Designo MX25AQ main monitor, I've had it for a little over four years and two months now. Since about a year ago, it started developing this issue where a "wavy" area of darkness appears near the left and right edges of the screen. It looks as if there's liquid in the screen or if something's "delaminating" inside. It would usually happen when it's cold, and would go away / "fade away" as it warmed up (usually taking a few minutes). However, over the last few months, it's been getting worse and worse. Nowadays, sometimes it's visible on certain shades of colours even when the monitor is fully warmed up. It is especially noticeable when it cools down in real life (e.g. it's becoming dawn and the brightness has been decreased).

The "grey uniformity" of the monitor has been degrading a bit as well, I swear.

I know I likely won't be able to fix an issue like this with the LCD panel. But my question is, what would possibly cause these issues? Could it develop into a stage where my LCD becomes completely / severely broken?

Note that I'm posting this to RD/S and not RD/C because I strongly believe this issue has something to do with materials degradation in the LCD and not some issue with the computer or cable, so I figured this is a better place for that.

Apologies for the non-free external image site upload, but if everything you see in the photo is not copyrighted then I will upload it to Commons. — AP 499D25 (talk) 05:03, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I Googled around, and it could be moisture infiltrating around the edges. The fact that it clears when hot is suggestive of that. There was a suggestion that if the monitor is near a kitchen, these stains could include cooking fumes. Another possibility (and conceivably related) is damage from pulling the protective plastic sheet off, the one that came when the monitor was newly purchased. This has to be done extremely carefully. Yet another worry is cleaning with rubbing alcohol, the internet says this is a bad idea. Abductive (reasoning) 06:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Rubbing alcohol as sold can consist for up to 50% of water.  --Lambiam 09:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

That sounds plausible! Thinking about it, more than a year ago I did clean my monitor using a wet microfibre cloth (a small, thin one for phones), and that seems to be the timepoint it all started. Worth pointing out that this monitor is in a bedroom, so it's not near moisture or oil vapour sources, and it has never been used in such an environment. When I got it new, there wasn't actually a protective sticky film on the front, just a styrofoam wrap. When I slid that wrap off, I got a nice big static shock when I touched the monitor bezel, but that didn't seem to do any immediate damage – this monitor was fine for the first 2.5 years or so that I used it.

Another interesting fact about this monitor is that although I bought it in Mar 2020, according to the info label, it has an manufacture date of Sep 2015, so that means it sat in a warehouse for 4.5 years before I bought it I guess.

Aside from this annoying and distracting issue, this monitor is the best quality display I've ever had (QHD resolution and 100% sRGB accuracy), so it'd be such a shame if it's actually dying on me. — AP 499D25 (talk) 08:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there any scientific truth to the meme that Vegetable oil/Seed oil is toxic to the human body?

There are plenty of memes that seed oil causes diabetes and heart attacks but I failed to find any wikipedia articles that argues their case. Is there any scientific truth to the meme that Vegetable oil/Seed oil is toxic/harmful to the human body?

Another question is that if the meme of harmful seed oil is unscientific then why isn't this meme documented in the List_of_conspiracy_theories wiki page? 2001:8003:429D:4100:A593:8A5B:182E:5551 (talk) 15:55, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Any kind of fats or oils in excess can cause heart disease, but there is no truth to the claim that vegetable oil is more toxic than animal fats (in fact, it's actually healthier) or that its consumption in moderation causes any health problems. 2601:646:8082:BA0:9480:50AE:ABF3:5E17 (talk) 23:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there is truth to it. Our nutrition articles could do with some updating and balance. It is a prime example of Paracelsus's The dose makes the poison, for both the omega 6 LA and omega 3 ALA are essential nutrients for humans. The basic issue is consumption of a high quantity of omega-6 fatty acids from modern seed oils (which have only been consumed for a century or so) and other sources, including indirectly through animal feed and the (relative) paucity of omega-3 fatty acids in the modern human diet. [Excessive omega-3 over omega-6 has been found only in Greenlandic Inuit traditional communities.] Probably the best book to start with is Anthony John Hulbert's recent Omega Balance: Nutritional Power for a Happier, Healthier Life- Johns Hopkins (2022). By omega balance, he means the percentage of omega 3's in the sum of omega 3's and 6's. He says:

Although there is no advice about separate consumption of omega-3 and omega-6 fats in these national dietary guidelines, this is not the case with the premier scientific society concerning lipid research. In 2004, ISSFAL (International Society for the Study of Fatty Acids and Lipids) issued a series of recommendations for dietary intake of the essential fats by healthy adults. They made no comment about consumption of the nonessential saturated and monounsaturated fats but instead proposed that adequate intake of 18:2ω-6 [ Linoleic acid (LA) ] is 2 percent of energy, and a healthy intake of 18:3ω-3 [ α-linolenic acid (ALA) ] is 0.7 percent of energy as well as recommending a minimum intake of 500mg/d of 20:5ω-3 [ eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)] and 22:6ω-6 [sic, should be 22:6ω-3 docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) as in the source [4]]. These ISSFAL recommendations for daily intake correspond to a diet omega balance of about 30 percent. The recommended intakes contrast markedly with the average actual daily intakes by the US population (from a 1999–2000 survey), which correspond to a diet omega balance of 9 percent. Similarly, a dietary survey of the Australian population revealed the average daily intake in 1995 corresponded to a diet omega balance of 11 percent. Both the United States and Australia (and likely many other developed high-income countries) have omega-6 intakes much higher and omega-3 intakes lower than the recommended levels.

Hulbert and other sources provide evidence that the omega imbalance can have deleterious effects not only in various chronic diseases, but also that the excess of inflammatory omega-6's can worsen outcomes of Covid, where many deaths appear to come from an excessive inflammatory response.John Z (talk)

μ-Oxidodihydrogen, a chemical compound found in industrially processed canned soup, is also known to be toxic to the human body. Why is no one talking about this?  --Lambiam 09:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

In very large excess, such as Olympic sized swimming pools, you would find it extremely difficult to swim in oil. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It might be even more difficult in a bathtub.  --Lambiam 19:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

A wry comparison to the dangers of water is appropriate to much or most discussion of nutrition. Which proceeds by demonizing food X and then along with declaring it causes disease Y, X is declared to be a novelty even though it was consumed by all or much of humanity for tens of millennia at least, or is even essential to life. Historical absurdity is absurdly accepted. But it isn't relevant here because nobody considers modern seed oils to be anything but essentially new foods, never existing or consumed in such bulk before by humans or by any animal. And there aren't many such candidates for widespread dietary changes that could be implicated in global rises of chronic diseases.

Another source, which may conceal some such wryness, is Harumi Okuyama, Yuko Ichikawa, Yueji Sun, Tomohito Hamazaki, William Edward Mitchell Lands- Prevention of Coronary Heart Disease: From the Cholesterol Hypothesis to omega 6 omega 3 Balance- Karger (2006). They note that "Dietary advice was revealed to be the most serious risk factor for CHD in Japan." "We suggest that increased intake of LA [a consequence of that advice as it raised seed oil consumption] may be a major cause for the observed increase in CHD incidence in the group with dietary advice. Higher intakes of LA accompanied higher rates of CHD ( fig. 9–11 ; tables 4 , 5 ), whereas decreasing LA intake was effective for the secondary prevention of CHD events". In any case, there is a genuine, active scientific controversy here, not a conspiracy theory. Those who see omega imbalance as a real problem - and therefore seed oils, which uncontroversially are its ultimate source- may be the majority of specialist lipidologists, e.g. Artemis Simopoulos, cofounder of ISSFAL.John Z (talk) 04:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Butterfly size

Do butterflies (especially nymphalids and/or swallowtails) become significantly smaller in size near the poleward (high-latitude) limit of their natural range? When I visited the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, they had 2 pinned specimens of Papilio cresphontes on display which were much smaller than their normal size per the article (one had a wingspan of "only" 3 inches -- I did a rough measurement with my fingers against the glass -- and the other was about 1/2 inch bigger) -- is this normal for (1) specifically P. cresphontes, (2) all swallowtails, and/or (3) all or most butterfly species? 2601:646:8082:BA0:9480:50AE:ABF3:5E17 (talk) 23:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Size Distributions of Butterfly Species and the Effect of Latitude on Species Sizes (you can open a free JSTOR account or access through the Wikipedia Library). Alansplodge (talk) 10:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I won't click on any external links regarding this topic, just in case it might show me gratuitously enlarged pictures of P. multicaudata or some suchlike abomination -- can you just tell me the gist of it in a few words (or more than a few, your choice)? 2601:646:8082:BA0:E558:16C8:D2DE:51EF (talk) 10:31, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

There are no pictures, it's a scientific paper. "For butterfly species (Papilionoidea) of the Australian and Afrotropical regions, average wingspan decreases with increasing latitude". Alansplodge (talk) 10:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! So the answer is yes -- right? (And that would explain the unusually small size of the two P. cresphontes specimens at the museum -- they must have been caught locally, and Toronto is near the northern limit of this species' natural range! And that is also quite reassuring for me -- it means that in Portland, Maine where I've been planning to move for quite a while, any P. cresphontes I come across won't be scary huge, in fact I might actually come to like them!) 2601:646:8082:BA0:E55E:2854:FEDE:FEB6 (talk) 21:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

May 18

Why packaging is important

Two reasons why packaging is important PhuPhumzile (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Read our article on "Packaging". It may assist you. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Ya gotta love it when a poster doesn't even try to make it look like a question they thought of on their own. Or like a question, even. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

One reason: By packaging your homework question to make it look as if it is curiosity-driven, you have a much better chance of getting a useful answer.  --Lambiam 14:41, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Why packaging is important: try buying loose helium by weight. Or by the handful. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

In certain forms shrinkflation, despite selling less of a product, manufacturers keep the packaging at the original size and leave some of the space empty. This wrapping and transportation of air maintains the level of economic activity, which is important to the gross domestic product.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

May 19

Erythema Migrans

Hi

Does anyone have a good source for erythema migrans? I was looking for another one and can't copy (for my own notes) the Wikipedia page

W;ChangingUsername (talk) 19:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Erythema migrans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I just came from there. The article isnt very good im sorry W;ChangingUsername (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

This Google Scholar search reduces the number of results from 19,400 to 11,900 by adding the term "review". Abductive (reasoning) 11:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you :)

I'll probably start using this for everything W;ChangingUsername (talk) 18:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

May 20

Can testosterone boost/etc... change someone desire from responsive to spontaneous?

Can testosterone boost/etc... change someone desire from responsive to spontaneous?177.207.104.19 (talk) 01:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

See Sexual desire and various other related articles, which you could have found easily by putting 'responsive desire' into the search box of this encyclopedia. You often post similar nonproductive responses to things which you personally have not heard of, although many others have: it becomes tedious. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 11:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I see no harm in trying to encourage posters to link to what they're asking about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, there was a non-zero chance that it referred to a responsive to spontaneous change in the desire to fight strangers. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Theoretically. The funny thing is that the first sentence of 94.2.67.173's lecture to me could just as easily have served as a direct response to the poster. (Though maybe that was the point anyway!) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You may be thinking of the DRD5 gene, where some alleles are thought to be involved in spontaneity or lack thereof. Abductive (reasoning) 11:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Our article doesn't mention that, but implicates it in everything else: learning and memory, addiction, smoking, ADHD, Parkinson's disease, schizophrenia, locomotion, regulation of blood pressure, and immunity. What a busy gene. I guess you're referencing something along the lines of dopamine being important for the will to initiate movement, like in Awakenings.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

According to this review article, "of the few studies on T[estosterone] and desire in healthy women ... dyadic desire [desire in sex with a partner] has shown null or negative correlations with T". This suggests it is unlikely to achieve the specific effect.  --Lambiam 08:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Gregory Cochran

Has Gregory M. Cochran worked for Darpa? If so, in what capacity, if known?Rich (talk) 21:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

This Gregory Cochran would be a likely candidate, but I could find no direct evidence to support this. This Gregory M. Cochran seems less likely. There was a 'Doug Cochran' at DARPA, however. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 01:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I bet those 2 Gregory Cochrans are the same.Rich (talk) 02:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

You're correct: they each are "co-author of the book The 10,000 Year Explosion." That Edge link could be used as a source for updating the article. --136.54.106.120 (talk) 05:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

May 21

Butterflies of Daviess County, KY (Papilionidae)

In Daviess County, Kentucky (or generally along the Ohio River or within a reasonable distance south thereof), how late in the year was the latest-ever sighting of Papilio glaucus? (Here in Central California, all tiger swallowtail species disappear in the first days of September -- my latest confirmed sighting of P. multicaudata was on September 1, and of P. rutulus on September 4 -- is it more-or-less the same over there?) Asking for a local and/or an expert -- and no pictures, please! 2601:646:8082:BA0:250E:98C8:7461:C819 (talk) 02:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The pool of active RefDesk editors is quite small and is spread around the Anglosphere (or sometimes outside of it), so finding anyone from that locality or an entomologist here is a bit unlikely. A Google search only found backyardecology.net - Eastern Tiger Swallowtail Butterflies (with pictures) which says: "In Kentucky, we typically see the adults flying from April until September". Alansplodge (talk) 14:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, but I was hoping for a bit more detail -- do they fly until early September (like their close relatives here in California), or until the end of September, or what? (The reason why I ask is, a friend of mine is over there on a farm caring for a sick relative, and I want to come over and help her with the farm itself, but at the same time I want to avoid any chance of a close encounter with one of those creepy critters out in the open (I think I told you more than once before how I feel about the Eastern tiger and about any other butterfly that looks like it -- with the exception of P. canadensis and P. machaon because they're nice and small, and also P. zelicaon because it's not only small but also its stripes are barely visible)! But I think since they only hatch in April (here in California I see P. rutulus beginning in mid-March), they shouldn't be flying any later in the year than they do here, so I should be "safe" beginning with the second week of September! (And just to be clear, other swallowtails like Papilio troilus are perfectly fine by me -- only tiger-striped ones aren't!) 2601:646:8082:BA0:A400:D9D:C5FD:AB24 (talk) 03:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Broadening the topic somewhat, you might be interested (if you aren't already familiar with it) by the subject of Phenology. Climate change is obviously having a large influence on previously reliable annual timings of natural phenomena: in my part of the world (southern England), many trees are blooming, etc., up to a month earlier than a few decades ago. Doubtless the emergence, migrations and numbers of annual broods of insects are also changing, so they can appear later as well as earlier. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 09:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Try calling 270-684-0211, the main number for the county public library in Owensboro. (Lest you embarrass yourself — be aware that the county name is pronounced "Davis", not "Davey's" or "Davy-ess".) Unfortunately their website's "contact" page, https://www.dcplibrary.org/contact, doesn't give either an email address or a form to write a help request. Nyttend (talk) 02:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Pseudouridine - why is it the fifth nucleotide?

I saw that in the scientific literature, pseudouridine is considered the fifth nucleotide. For example:[5], [6]. My question is why is it called the fifth and not the sixth? To the best of my knowledge, when pseudouridine was discovered in the 1950's, the known nucleotides were: A,C,T,G,U = five nucleotides. So why isn't pseudouridine the sixth nucleotide? Thanks 2A01:6500:A042:E52F:970A:37C0:5DE7:C30E (talk) 11:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The original paper seems to be the 1956 publication doi:10.1016/S0021-9258(18)70770-9 which, in Table 1, shows they only considered A,G,C and U as known in RNA at that time. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

T is not normally found in RNA, being replaced by U -- that must be the reason why. 2601:646:8082:BA0:A400:D9D:C5FD:AB24 (talk) 03:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 22

Evidence of physical empath

I have been looking for a reference for studies to find evidence of a physical empath, meaning a person who experiences physical pain that those around him or her are experiencing. I can find a plethora of web pages claiming empathy is real. I'm not looking for silly web pages. I'm trying to find scientific studies. So far, I only found ones about emotional empathy, not physical empathy. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 18:29, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's something:

• Armstrong, Kim (29 December 2017). "'I Feel Your Pain': The Neuroscience of Empathy". APS Observer. Association for Psychological Science.
• Riess, Helen (June 2017). "The Science of Empathy". Journal of Patient Experience. 4 (2): 74–77. doi:10.1177/2374373517699267.

Unsure, however, if that satisfies your perception of "evidence of a physical empath". The neuroscience of empathy shows that observing others in pain can activate similar neural networks involved in experiencing pain firsthand.

See also: Mirror-touch synesthesia --136.54.106.120 (talk) 23:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I can get "I Feel Your Pain" from another local branch. That should work well. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 11:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Why does the northern hemisphere have two subtropical jets?

There are normally two subtropical jet streams in the winter northern hemisphere (e.g Fig12), one over Africa-Asia-North Pacific and the other over North America-North Atlantic. Why is that so? Maybe the cold Sahara/Canary Current and California Current yield the gaps? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 18:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Where do you see two subtropical jets? One of them is subtropical jet and the second is polar jet. Ruslik_Zero 19:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Africa-Asia-North Pacific and the other over North America-North Atlantic They are not connected, and they both start in the subtropics. I am talking about east-west gaps, not north-south gaps. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

May 23

Inner space

What is outer space "outer" of? Is it "the region beyond Earth's sky" (i.e. the atmosphere) mentioned in outer space#terminology? I tried visiting Inner space, but it's a disambiguation page with no relevant results. Nyttend (talk) 02:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a firm boundary for outer space, as atmospheric pressure exponentially decreases with altitude above Earth's surface (see scale height) and thus the exosphere blends into space rather than suddenly vanishing into a vacuum. The lead section of outer space gives at least one boundary defined by convention, and the body states that the density of atmospheric gas gradually decreases with distance from the object until it becomes indistinguishable from outer space; this need not occur at a fixed altitude even if we assume a constant pressure for the interplanetary medium (or threshold above it). I guess we could then say that outer space is "outer" to the region with a significantly higher density/pressure with respect to the interplanetary medium, or more simply, "outer" to any measurable atmosphere of a planet.

I've also never heard the term "inner space" in the context of planetary science. ^Complex/_Rational 02:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

One arrives at inner space by sitting and meditating, not by visiting a website. (Cue one of my frequent dad jokes: "My son has taken up meditation. Well, at least he's not just sitting around doing nothing".) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Kármán line may be of interest. I don't think the term 'outer space' ever had a physical 'inner' counterpart. As a term for the mental realms, however, 'inner space' was often used in explicit opposition to 'outer space' in discussions of the 'New Wave' of Science Fiction writing in the 1960s and later (see Inner space (science fiction)). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 00:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Contrasting with outer space, there's also near space, which redirects to mesosphere. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

What's the point of being enamored by one symmetric face and bored by an equally symmetric one?

Why should evolution give them such a wide range from meh to gobsmacking? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

You are potentially ascribing too much intent, if rhetorical or metaphorical, to the process. Sometimes there are just spandrels. Remsense诉 05:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

If hunter gatherers lived in population densities under 1 per square mile and only saw one band of unrelated humans at a time and only about 75 were female and a fairly large percent were too young or too old with the stage 1 population pyramid and some of the rest aren't attracted to you and some you can't stand to live with long-term or almost and some can't stand you either then what's the point of some females being far more beautiful than others to specific men all other things being equal? Or it increased group harmony vs if beauty was less in the eye of the beholder? Less discord at least if not fights over women. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

This question doesn't seem like it has an answer, because you are ascribing too much intent to conceptual abstractions. Remsense诉 01:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

We have a facial symmetry article. DMacks (talk) 05:37, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

It's nice that the last line in that article is the 'what the...?' cliffhanger "Some evidence suggests that face preferences in adults might be correlated to infections in childhood..." with the cited source saying "...frequency of diarrhea in particular". Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• The word "bored" seems to have taken on some strange new meaning. I see people on social media saying stuff like "I was bored out of my skull so I came here ..." (= "I'm only here because I'm desperate"). If that isn't the greatest insult to their fellow socialmediaists, I don't know what would be. Contrary to the OP's title, being indifferent to something does not equate to being bored by it. One would have to spend some considerable time focussing on the object in question to get to the point of being bored by it, but that is the exact opposite of being so unimpressed by the object that one moves on immediately to something potentially more interesting. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think this sense of "bored" develops when one views a range of examples in aggregate such that they constitute one experience. Remsense诉 23:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

May 24

Why is Aluminum so difficult to separate?

While the article on Aluminum talks about the fact that Aluminum wasn't really separated into pure or near-pure form until the 19th century, there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason given? Is it *somehow* tied to the other odd characteristic of Alumnimum, that when it oxidizes it goes the opposite way from Iron Oxide and flaking.Naraht (talk) 03:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

This has to do with the fact that aluminum forms such a strong bond with oxygen that it can only be reduced to the metal by means of electrolysis or thermite process (plus the fact that, as also with zinc and a few other metals, the melting point of the oxide is higher than the boiling point of the metal, so some way of reducing the former must be used to prevent the metal from simply boiling away). 2601:646:8082:BA0:A400:D9D:C5FD:AB24 (talk) 03:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Is it that odd to have a non-spalling oxide? In ultradry pure oxygen (partial pressure of H₂O ≤2×10⁻⁵ mmHg), even Li, Na, and K passivate. :) Double sharp (talk) 12:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

See: Hall–Héroult process -- Before then (1886), aluminum had been more expensive than gold.^{[7] [8] [9]} --136.54.106.120 (talk) 22:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hexavalent chromium and heptavalent manganese

For the compounds with hexavalent chromium and heptavalent manganese (or the high oxidation states of other transition metals, such as hexavalent molybdenum, heptavalent technetium, hexavalent tungsten, heptavalent rhenium, etc.) and a single chemical element, there are CrO3 and Mn2O7, but CrF6 and MnF7 seem to not exist, but are there CrS3, Mn2S7, CrCl6, MnCl7, etc.? Is O the only element which has compound with only two elements and with high oxidation states of transition metals? +6 is one of the main oxidation state of chromium and +7 is one of the main oxidation state of manganese. 61.224.168.169 (talk) 10:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

In general, really high oxidation states require O or F, essentially due to high electronegativity. Cr(VI) and Mn(VII) are high enough to be considered under this rubric. Which one is favoured depends on other factors, e.g. F has higher electronegativity but its monovalency instead of O's divalency leads to steric hindrance being more important. It can go either way: for Os, OsO₄ is well-known and OsF₈ nonexistent, but for Pt, it's PtF₆ that's well-known and PtO₃ that's not well-characterised.

I don't think W(VI), for example, is really "high". Of course, it is the highest possible (just count valence electrons), but no one would call Na(I) high either. The early 4d and 5d metals tend to be happier in high oxidation states than their 3d counterparts. MoS₃, MoCl₆, WS₃, WBr₆, Tc₂S₇, and Re₂S₇ all exist. And WF₆ is not even a great oxidising agent, whereas MnF₄ is already ferocious (and the highest fluoride, too). Late d-metals are indeed much more oxidising in their highest oxidation states: once you reach Ir and Pt, I would definitely agree that VI is high (PtF₆ famously oxidises dioxygen and xenon). But even then you see the pattern, since Co and Ni cannot even get as far as VI. Double sharp (talk) 12:49, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

How do background gases influence combustion

If say, you ignite wood in a gas with the same partial pressure oxygen as air, but ten times the partial pressure of nitrogen. JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 19:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Some gases like dibromotetrafluoroethane vapour can suppress burning. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

About abundance and abundancy

Let s(n) = (sequence A001065 in the OEIS)(n) = sigma(n)-n = sum of divisors of n that are less than n

1. Give integer k, should there be infinitely many positive integers n such that s(n)-n = k?
2. Give positive rational number k, should there be infinitely many positive integers n such that s(n)/n = k?

2402:7500:942:8E8F:A4D8:9B73:8E52:1E7B (talk) 07:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The answer to 1. is no. If a number has is composite, then it is completely determined by its set of proper divisors (in particular, it is the product of the smallest prime factor and the largest proper divisor.) By definition $s(n)-n=m$ if and only if there is a partition of $m$ into unique numbers such that the elements of the partition are precisely the proper divisors of $n$. There are a finite amount of possible partitions of $m$, and thus a finite number of partitions which produce the proper divisors of some number $n$, and as long as the partitions in question are not just the set $\{1\}$ (i.e. the partition produced by primes), all such partitions/sets of proper divisors completely determine some unique $n$. Thus for $k\neq 1$ there are a finite number of $n$ satisfying $s(n)-n=m$. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The smallest values of $n$ such that $s(n)-n=m$ are given in OEIS: A070015, while the largest values of $n$ such that $s(n)-n=m$ are given in OEIS: A135244. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I meant s(n)-n = sigma(n)-2*n, not sigma(n) - n (which is s(n) itself), s(n) is (sequence A001065 in the OEIS), while sigma(n) is (sequence A000203 in the OEIS), they are different functions. 2402:7500:900:DEEB:B513:C07E:8EF3:8275 (talk) 04:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

See OEIS:A033880. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, so should there be infinitely many such positive integers n? 49.217.136.82 (talk) 07:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have no idea, you're gonna have to check the sources in that OEIS listing. GalacticShoe (talk) 08:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

May 11

Dirac delta function

The Dirac delta is a notorious real-valued "function" that is infinite at x=0 and zero everywhere else. In real analysis it is treated as a generalized function (Schwartz distribution). Disclosure, I don't know what those really are, but their construction involves bump functions, which are continuously differentiable at all orders but are zero outside of a region.

In the complex plane of course, any continuously differentiable function is analytic so it must be either constant or unbounded, amirite? So there are no complex bump functions with those properties.

So, is there a complex version of the Dirac delta, and how is it mathematically "handled"? Thanks. 2602:243:2008:8BB0:F494:276C:D59A:C992 (talk) 00:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The second illustration in the Dirac delta article shows it as the limit of sequence of zero-centered normal distributions, which do not have compact support; this works as well for most applications. So bump functions are not essential. Nevertheless, I don't think this will help in attempting to define a complex version.  --Lambiam 06:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually a more fundamental question: are Fourier series and Fourier transforms important in complex analysis? This is where the delta function comes up in the real case, more or less. 2602:243:2008:8BB0:F494:276C:D59A:C992 (talk) 08:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The theory of Fourier series was developed well before Dirac came up with his delta function. It only plays a role in the theory of the Fourier transform for a purely periodic signal, not perturbed by any noise, something not found in actual practical applications. Even then, the delta function simplifies the presentation, but can be avoided using a mixed representation. I don't see how any of this can be generalized to deal with functions on the complex domain.  --Lambiam 16:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Fourier transforms are better defined on spaces of tempered distributions, proper subspaces of the spaces of distributions. The distribution spaces are dual to the Schwartz space of infinitely differentiable swiftly decreasing functions (the function and its derivatives decrease rapidly at infinity), instead of being dual to compactly supported C-infinity function spaces. And just as it can be considered as a limit of compactly supported C-inf bump functions, it can be considered as a limit of the normal distributions in the second illustration that Lambiam cites, which are tempered. The smaller here the space of test functions, the bigger the dual space. So measures - dual to spaces of continuous functions are a subset of distributions, the Dirac "function" being a measure. The degree k of a distribution corresponds to what dual Ck space it can be considered to come from.

The point of all this is that just as Ck functions are in C(k-1) down to C0 and all are in C-infinity spaces, compactly supported or tempered, one can consider the even smaller space of nicer functions, the analytic ones. And expect to get a bigger dual, distribution space. That leads to Sato's hyperfunctions which give an answer to the original question - "So, is there a complex version of the Dirac delta, and how is it mathematically "handled"". The idea is that one representation of hyperfunctions (on the real line) are as (differences of) boundary values of holomorphic functions on the upper & lower half-planes. Our article: "Informally, the hyperfunction is what the difference f-g would be at the real line itself." The difference of f and g is sort of converging to the hyperfunction as one gets closer to the real line. Which is how one avoids the fact that complex analysis prevents one from using bump functions or swiftly decreasing tempered functions as the OP notes.

But these games of course are only productive if the functions f or g are singular at the real line. So to finally get to the question, 1/2πiz has a simple pole singularity at 0, and that it - the function or its singularity - represents the Dirac function is precisely Cauchy's integral formula. Schwartz distributions can only have finite order - they can be thought of as nth order derivatives of functions which are not differentiable or even continuous. Sato Hyperfunctions can have infinite order. Functions with essential singularities, like e^(1/z) lead to such. Finally, as our article explains, one can consider the boundary value defined hyperfunctions as dual to the space of real analytic functions on the line. So that's the way of thinking complexly about Dirac delta. Maybe there are other ways, perhaps as yet undreamt.

Two relevant notes. At the first scientific conference I ever attended, I happened to sit next to Dirac himself. Same suit as in pictures of the Solvay conferences of the 20s. A venerable and awesome presence, beyond the perception of this bear of little brain. Second, why aren't or weren't hyperfunctions better known? Back in the 90s at a party where most were in our cups [me especially after a Red Army vet taught me to drink vodka like Red Army]. . . A Japanese mathematician there told me that it was an intended Japanese monopoly, for when books on Sato school microlocal, hyperfunction stuff were translated, pikchers and illustrations and examples were eliminated. This seemed to be true for one book I checked- the original was a lot thicker. I mentioned this to one of the very few non-Japanese experts - and he drily said the monopoly was pretty successful [back in those pre-Wikipedia etc days] - while the fellow I heard it from remembered nothing of our conversation when he had sobered up. :-) John Z (talk) 16:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

May 13

Prediction of analogous spatial distributions

Hi guys,

I wish to do a specific GIS/spatial analysis task and I suspect I'm using the wrong search terms in my attempts to figure out existing approaches and tools. Here's what I'm trying to do:

I have a raster data set describing the spatial distribution of a metric in the summer of year X (X1) as well as in the spring (X2). I further have data for the distribution of the same metric in summer only of year Y (Y1). I now want to extrapolate summer raster data of Y1 to Y2. To this end, I want to fit a model to the relationship X1 <-> X2 and then use this model for the prediction Y1 -> Y2. A number of spatial and temporal covariates are available.

I'm guessing that what I'm looking at here would be spatial regression followed by prediction. For the "predict distribution from spatial model" bit, it seems that some flavour of kriging would be suitable, but what I first need is essentially a model describing the transition between two distributions of the same metric (not the spatial relationship of one metric to another in the same space) - seems like a different problem? - To be implemented in QGIS and/or R, if any tool-specific recommendations come to mind.

Cheers! --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 12:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

When you make a scatter plot between the X1 and X2 data, do the points seem to lie on a curve with not too much noise? And are the extreme Y1 values not far outside the range of the X1 values? If so, you can simply try curve fitting with a low-degree polynomial and use the curve to read off plausible estimates for the Y2 values. The spatial aspect is then actually irrelevant. It may be relevant for smoothing the observed values before doing anything else. See if this helps with getting a clearer curve. If the metric is necessarily positive, it may further be helpful not to use X1 and X2 directly but to plot instead log(X2) against log(X1). Kriging only plays a role if the summer raster of the years is not the same.  --Lambiam 13:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam: sorry for the late response. Thank you, that was helpful! Unfortunately, plotting my data that way showed that the spatial correlation seems to be highly important, as the distribution scatters very widely even with various transformations. Based on what I have read in the meantime, I think a geographically weighted spatial regression is the way to go, if I can get good enough coverage out of my covariates. The prediction bit is going to be interesting since implementations in QGIS seem to be focused on fitting and analysis only, so will have to fully take it to R. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 11:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Calculus question

Hello there, I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask a calculus question seeming the activity here is quite slim.

A cylindrical tank with a radius of 5 meters is being filled with water at a rate of 3 cubic meters per minute. The tank initially contains 10 cubic meters of water.

1. Write an expression for the volume of water in the tank as a function of time t in minutes.
2. Determine the rate at which the water level is rising in the tank when the depth of the water is 2 meters.
3. At what rate is the water level rising when the tank is half full?

Im lost on the second on here, someone help? GoodHue291 (talk) 22:55, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Is the the axis of the cylinder horizontal? If so, then more information is needed, such as the length of the tank. catslash (talk) 23:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, as presented this question is problematic, since for a horizontal axis you need the length, which isn't given, but for a vertical axis the rate, height, pretty much everything is linear. GalacticShoe (talk) 01:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. - Arjayay (talk) 09:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I put this question here so people can guide me to solving it, they're not going to do it for me. GoodHue291 (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Didn't the reply by 2A01 give you good guidance? What was the expression you found for question 1?  --Lambiam 13:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"The rate at which X is changing" means "the derivative of X with respect to time" where "X" in this case is "the water level". So first you're going to need to find an expression for the water level as a function of time L = f(t) and then work out the derivative of that function to get dL/dt = f'(t). You're also going to need to know the time t at which to evaluate f' which, assuming you know how to convert volume to water level, you can work out using the expression you found in part one. 2A01:E0A:D60:3500:61F0:5F9A:48A:C8D6 (talk) 09:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

May 14

Worst case performance of a randomized primality test?

I am trying to get a idea about how efficient something like this might be. Let's say we have a number N composed of B binary bits, and we now want to generate a "certificate of primality" using the following method: First we choose a "confidence" parameter C which indicates the degree of statistical certainty desired. Then, (1) Select a random number R < N. (2) Take the GCD of N with R; if it is not 1 then N is composite, otherwise we consider R to be a "witness" of N's (possible) primality. (3) Repeat until the level of confidence reaches C. Only question is, how to determine the number of iterations needed until C is satisfied? Earl of Arundel (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

That is usually what is done and its a good way to do it - but it can fall foul of problems like Pseudoprimes. so a better test is done tham the straightforward Fermat's little theorem test. See also AKS primality test for why a full test isn't normally done. The probabalistic tests linked from there give an estimate of their effectiveness - which is very good indeed. NadVolum (talk) 17:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes of course, I am currently using the Miller-Rabin primality test which does exhibit a very good "average performance". However my question was more along the lines of "how much less efficient would it be to do randomized GCD tests instead"? Because surely even *that* would produce a bona fide "certificate of confidence" (albeit perhaps much slower than otherwise). Now I do know that the probability of any two random variables being comprime is $6/\pi ^{2}$, I just can't seem to figure out how to "interpolate" that into a reliable (if inefficient) probabalistic test. Earl of Arundel (talk) 18:16, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

If the number submitted to the famous EoA primality test may have been selected by an adversary, it can be the product of two almost equal primes. The probability that a single random test detects its non-primality is then about $2/{\sqrt {N}}.$ This means that you need about ${\frac {1}{2}}{\sqrt {N}}\log {\frac {1}{p}}$ independent random GCD tests before you can assert with confidence $1-p$ that the number is prime. For example, for $N=9875191871$ you need some 228,818 random tests to achieve a 99% confidence level. Straightforward primality testing by trying successive odd numbers as divisors while skipping multiples of $3$ requires ${\frac {1}{3}}{\sqrt {N}}$ trial divisions, for the example 33,124.  --Lambiam 19:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Wow, so not even close to being nearly as efficient as the humble trial division algorithm. (I don't know why that surprises me, it is more or less a "scatter-shot" approach to primality testing.) Of course Miller-Rabin blows both of those out of the water. Not only is the required number of iterations relatively low, the best-case performance WRT detecting composites is typically excellent. (I think it even outperforms AKS on average.) Very elegant formulation of the lower-bound there, by the way. I wouldn't have thought it could be reckoned so precisely. Kudos! Earl of Arundel (talk) 20:26, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

One reason some primality tests run more efficiently is that they only tell you what you want to know, is the number a prime? If you want to know more than that, a factor if it's composite, that will take longer; you're factoring the number instead of just showing that it's composite. A GCD test would produce a factor so it's bound to be less efficient. (Of course, someone could come up with a factorization algorithm that's as fast as the fastest primality test, but that hasn't happened so far, and that's why non-factoring primality tests still have a niche.) --RDBury (talk) 03:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

May 15

How many such binary operations exist in a set with n elements?

There are four possible properties for a binary operation:

1. Idempotence
2. Commutative property
3. Associative property
4. Cancellation property

So, in a set with n elements, how many such binary operations (which are closed) exist?

1. Satisfy property 1
2. Satisfy property 2
3. Satisfy property 3
4. Satisfy property 4
5. Satisfy properties 1 and 2 simultaneously
6. Satisfy properties 1 and 3 simultaneously
7. Satisfy properties 1 and 4 simultaneously
8. Satisfy properties 2 and 3 simultaneously
9. Satisfy properties 2 and 4 simultaneously
10. Satisfy properties 3 and 4 simultaneously
11. Satisfy properties 1, 2, and 3 simultaneously
12. Satisfy properties 1, 2, and 4 simultaneously
13. Satisfy properties 1, 3, and 4 simultaneously
14. Satisfy properties 2, 3, and 4 simultaneously
15. Satisfy all four properties simultaneously

2402:7500:92D:FD81:F115:AC09:9228:B1A8 (talk) 10:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• Case 1, just idempotence, is easy. A binary operation on a set of $n$ elements (a finite magma) can be completely described by the $n^{2}$ entries of the $n\times n$ operation table. Idempotence fixes the $n$ entries on the diagonal. For each of the remaining $n(n-1)$ entries there are $n$ choices, so there are $n^{n(n-1)}$ distinct tables.
• Case 2, just commutativity, is also easy. The $n$ entries on the diagonal can be chosen freely, as can the ${\tfrac {1}{2}}n(n-1)$ entries of the triangle below the diagonal; the upper triangle is thereby fixed. So the number equals $n^{{\frac {1}{2}}n(n+1)}.$
• For case 4, just cancellation, there is a one-to-one correspondence with the Latin squares of order $n$. See the section Number of $n\times n$ Latin squares.

There is no simple formula for this case, and I suppose also not for most, if not all, other cases. Some have been tabulated; for case 3, the number of finite semigroups, see OEIS: A023814.  --Lambiam 13:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

How about the cases 5 to 15? I found the OEIS sequences:

All binary operations (without any condition): (sequence A002489 in the OEIS) (labeled), (sequence A001329 in the OEIS) (isomorphism classes)

Case 1: (sequence A090588 in the OEIS) (labeled), (sequence A030247 in the OEIS) (isomorphism classes)

Case 2: (sequence A023813 in the OEIS) (labeled), (sequence A001425 in the OEIS) (isomorphism classes)

Case 3: (sequence A023814 in the OEIS) (labeled), (sequence A001423 in the OEIS) (isomorphism classes)

Case 4: (sequence A002860 in the OEIS) (labeled), (sequence A057991 in the OEIS) (isomorphism classes)

Case 8: (sequence A023815 in the OEIS) (labeled), (sequence A001426 in the OEIS) (isomorphism classes)

How about other cases? 49.217.196.102 (talk) 10:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Case 5 is A076113. Using the analysis method given above for cases 1 and 2, you should have been able to derive the formula yourself.  --Lambiam 10:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@RDBury:@GalacticShoe: 220.132.230.56 (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Case 10 seems to be exactly the groups, i.e. a binary operation is a group if and only if it satisfies condition 10 (i.e. both associative property and cancellation property), the only exception is the empty set, which satisfies all these four properties but is not group since it does not have the identity element, and I found these OEIS sequences: (note: a(0) = 1 in every case, although not all these sequences have a(0) = 1)

case	OEIS sequence (labeled)	OEIS sequence (isomorphism classes)
All binary operations (without any condition)	(sequence A002489 in the OEIS)	(sequence A001329 in the OEIS)
1	(sequence A090588 in the OEIS)	(sequence A030247 in the OEIS)
2	(sequence A023813 in the OEIS)	(sequence A001425 in the OEIS)
3	(sequence A023814 in the OEIS)	(sequence A001423 in the OEIS)
4	(sequence A002860 in the OEIS)	(sequence A057991 in the OEIS)
5	(sequence A076113 in the OEIS)	(sequence A030257 in the OEIS)
8	(sequence A023815 in the OEIS)	(sequence A001426 in the OEIS)
9	(I cannot find OEIS sequence)	(sequence A057992 in the OEIS)
10	(sequence A034383 in the OEIS)	(sequence A000001 in the OEIS)
14	(sequence A034382 in the OEIS)	(sequence A000688 in the OEIS)

But I cannot find OEIS sequences for other cases, for case 7 (isomorphism classes), I found a table (sequence A058175 in the OEIS), the last element in each row is exactly the answer, but when I search this sequence "1, 1, 0, 1, 1, 4, 18", I found no sequence in OEIS, and for case 12 (isomorphism classes), I found a table (sequence A058177 in the OEIS), the last element in each row is exactly the answer, but the last row of this sequence is currently "1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0", which may have too many sequences in OEIS, the answer for case 12 seems to be (sequence A135528 in the OEIS) with offset 0, i.e. the answer is 0 for all even n >= 2 and 1 for n = 0 and all odd n >= 1, also for cases 13 and 15, the answer is 0 for all n >= 2 and 1 for n = 0 and n = 1, i.e. (sequence A019590 in the OEIS) with offset 0, since there is no idempotent group with >= 2 elements (since all groups have an identity element and have the cancellation property). 61.224.168.169 (talk) 12:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Measuring Coefficient of Variation

I have a group of 39 subjects who evaluated 20 different answers to questions on a scale of 1 to 5. The mean is 2.13 and the Standard Deviation is 1.077. I want to say that there is a lot of variation in the answers. I asked ChatGPT and it said to compute the Coefficient of Variation which is: CV= 2.131.077 ×100% ≈ 50.47% It said that: "The interpretation of the coefficient of variation (CV) can vary depending on the context and the field of study. However, as a general guideline: Low variability: CV less than 15% Moderate variability: CV between 15% and 30% High variability: CV greater than 30%" Which seems to support my hypothesis which is that there is significant variation in the answers. That's also what a quick look at the data indicates. Haven't done statistics in decades so wanted to check with a human as well. Does this all sound reasonable? I want to say in an academic paper that there was considerable variation in our subjects as indicated by the CV being greater than 50% does that seem reasonable? MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Computing 1.077/2.13 yields 0.5056, not 0.5047 – but a precision of four digits, also for the SD, is excessive. If only one of the subjects, vacillating between 2 and 3, had picked the other choice, the SD would almost certainly have diverged from 1.077 already in the second digit after the decimal point.

Reporting the CV may be common practice, but is too often meaningless. Your subjects scored on a scale of 1 to 5, which is an arbitrary convention for Likert scales (see Likert scale § Scoring and analysis). If the scale had been labeled 0 to 4, the SD would remain the same, but the mean would have been 1 less, only 1.13. So computing the value of the CV would in that case have resulted in 1.077/1.13 = 0.9531.

Another commonly used measure is the index of dispersion, which is even more problematic for the distribution of scores using an arbitrary scale.

I'm not a social scientist, but, assuming that each of the five possible responses is a reasonable one, the dispersion does not appear that considerable to me. It is definitely less than the expected 1.41 if respondents had given uniformly random answers. If you show a histogram, readers can form their own assessments about how considerable the dispersion is.

A final word of advice. In reporting the statistics of research findings, avoid the terms "significance" and "significant" unless you definitely mean to refer to the technical notion of statistical significance.  --Lambiam 05:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Excellent. I've come to realize that these LLMs often sound very convincing but when you look into the details they often are incorrect. FYI: the survey is really a fairly minor part of the work we're doing so we didn't spend as much time as (with hindsight) we should have to set it up appropriately and think about the statistical analysis before hand. Based on what you said, I don't think it makes sense for us to talk about any statistics because the sample size was small and in this phase of the work it was just a trivial part. Thanks again. MadScientistX11 (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

May 16

What would a graph of integers vs the percent of the next 1000 integers that are non-tautologically figurate look like?

Counting polygonal numbers, centered polygonal numbers, Platonic solid numbers, centered Platonic solid numbers, regular pyramidal numbers, centered regular pyramidal numbers and sure why not maybe also the bipyramidal and prism analogs of those pyramids (with n copies of the nth k-gonal number stacked). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:04, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

100% of all integers are polygonal (in at least in 2 ways that I can think of from the top of my head) and therefore figurate numbers. Perhaps you meant integers that are figurate numbers in non-trivial ways. Dhrm77 (talk) 18:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Right, it'd have to be ones that are also figurate in non-trivial ways. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Denoting the function giving the fraction of non-trivial figurates by $f,$ we have $f(n)\sim n^{-{\frac {1}{2}}}$ as $n$ grows, but when $n$ gets very large, in the millions, the proportionality breaks down, There will be increasingly often no figurate numbers at all among the next 1000 integers; either $f(n)\geq 0.001$ or $f(n)=0.$  --Lambiam 05:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course, every positive integer n is both the nth 2-gonal number and the 2nd n-gonal number. GTrang (talk) 14:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Truncated square tiling and lines through

I was looking at bathroom tile in Truncated square tiling. Am I correct that for a line passing through opposite vertices in one octagon, that it never passes through another vertex in the tiling? Naraht (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

This is one of those problems which is not hard to solve in theory, but it's so easy to make a mistake in calculation that the result shouldn't be trusted on the first attempt. But according to my calculations the line passing through two opposite corners of an octagon will pass through an additional two vertices. You can enumerate the vertices as ((1+√2)k+a,(1+√2)l+b) where (a,b) is one of:

(1/√2, 0), (0, 1/√2), (0, -1/√2), (-1/√2, 0).

The line through (0, 1/√2) and (1+1/√2, 1+√2) is given by y=(1+√2)(x-1/√2). There are four vertices which lie on this line, the (1/√2, 0) and (1+1/√2, 1+√2) we started with, plus (0, -1-1/√2) and (1+√2, 2+3/√2). You can easily verify that the points satisfy the equation of the line, and the values of k, l, a and b for the points are:

(1/√2, 0): k=0, l=0, a=1/√2, b=0

(1+1/√2, 1+√2): k=1, l=1, a=-1/√2, b=0

(0, -1-1/√2): k=0, l=-1, a=0, b=1/√2

(1+√2, 2+3/√2): k=1, l=2, a=0, b=-1/√2

You can prove these are the only four points. For a specific pair (a, b) the equation (1+√2)k+a=(1+√2)((1+√2)l+b-1/√2) is linear in k and l. But since √2 is irrational, you can set coefficients of 1 and √2 equal to each other and obtain two equations in two unknowns. This is a non-degenerate system in this case and so the solution is unique. (For vertical, horizontal and diagonal lines, i.e. m=±1, the system is degenerate and so there will be either no solutions or an infinite number.) --RDBury (talk) 01:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

May 20

Magic square for base 2 Fermat pseudoprimes

There is a 3*3 magic square of primes:

17	89	71
113	59	5
47	29	101

Is there a 3*3 magic square of base 2 Fermat pseudoprimes, if no, is there a magic square (with any order) of base 2 Fermat pseudoprimes? 118.170.50.186 (talk) 12:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

May 22

Finding a list of "nice" angles

Hi. Angles such as 30, 45, 60 degrees are commonly used. I am currently using a very inefficient and convoluted process to find similar angles:

1. Draw a right triangle with height 4.0000 and the top angle as 39.0000 degrees. The bottom is then 3.23914.

2. Open up an excel sheet and populate the first column with values from 38.00 to 40.00 in 0.01 degree increments.

3. In the second column input the equation =tan(RADIANS(A1))*4.0000

4. Manually look through the second column to find a "nice" value (using human heuristics), which is 3.25999604

5. Calculate ROUND(3.25999604, 3)/4, which is 0.815

6. Now go back to the original right triangle, and change the angle to =ATN(0.815)

7. The right triangle now has height 4.0000 and the top angle as 39.1800 degrees, and bottom 3.2600

Is there a way to calculate all such "nice" angles in advance in the form of a table? If that were possible, there would be a row with the values: "tan(RADIANS(39.18)) = 0.815". So in step one, I would input height 4.0000, look in the table for an angle close to 39.0000, which is 39.1800, then input =ATN(0.815) as the angle. In that case, I would not need to open Excel and perform steps 2 to 6.

I am not a programmer but I imagine that it should be possible to write a short script to generate all such "nice" angles from 0 to 360 degrees.

Thank you and have a nice day. OptoFidelty (talk) 21:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps Exact trigonometric values might be of use to you? NadVolum (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

One way to approach it would be to graph the function. So e.g. draw a graph of y = 4 tan(x) in a graph package. Excel e.g. though I've not used it for years so don't know how good its graph drawing is now.

Your "nice" angles then can be found when the graph crosses through, or close to, points on your "graph paper", marked to the degree of precision you desire. You might then be able to find these points programatically, or visually, or a combination of both from the graph. --2A04:4A43:90AF:FC35:6CCB:C14C:3818:FDA2 (talk) 23:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. Exact trigonometric values is very close to what I am looking for. OptoFidelty (talk) 15:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Does the algebraic (roots) notation exist for the trigonometric values of all angles with integer degrees? 61.224.168.169 (talk) 11:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

It is not quite clear to me from this one example what makes an angle "nice". Suppose I draw a right triangle with height 7.5 and top angle 52°. I get 9.59956... for the width. This is close to 9.6. Is it close enough for 52° to be nice?

Is the following nice: height = 7.9735, angle = 9.0941°, width = 1.2763? If not, why not?  --Lambiam 21:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam The triangle I ended drawing has height 4, top angle 39.1800 degrees, and bottom 3.2599960396627881356849171185262635206102761449606762736889760643... long.

On a schematic with a 2 decimal point formatting, the rounded numbers would be height 4.00, top angle 39.18 degrees, and bottom 3.26. In that case, the height and angle are exact, and the bottom number is 0.000121482% off from the exact value.

With height = 7.9735, angle = 9.0941°, width = 1.2763, the 2 digit rounded values would be 7.97, 9.09, 1.28. And the rounding error would be slightly larger than my example.

"niceness" is entirely subjective and varies from person to person, and from context to context. In this case, it's basically personal shorthand word I use to describe "when you round the number to X number of decimal points, the rounded number is less than Y% off from the exact measurement".

The value of X is determinted by the exact drafting standard that I am told to draft in. It commonly varies from 1 to 3. the value of Y is, again, subjective. I personally like to keep it "small", but there is no objective measure on how "small" Y needs to be. OptoFidelty (talk) 21:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 23

Differential Equation

Does the differential equation x² * d²x/dt² = k have a name? (All I've figured out about this so far is that I don't remember enough about differential equations. I'm not getting anything on solving it except errors.) Thank you. RJFJR (talk) 02:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

As to a solution, you could guess that one might be some power of $t$ and accordingly substitute $x=At^{p}$ (where $A$ and $p$ are constants), then solve for $p$ and then solve for $A$. catslash (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Then, since nothing in the equation depends on the absolute value of $t$, you could apply an arbitrary time-shift to get a slightly more general solution $x=A(t-t_{0})^{p}$. catslash (talk) 09:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

You're right. Thank you. p=2/3, I was not expecting that. I appreciate it. RJFJR (talk) 14:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

This is an autonomous second order equation. If you write ${\ddot {x}}-{\frac {k}{x^{2}}}=0$ and multiply with ${\dot {x}}$, you find ${\frac {d}{dt}}({\frac {1}{2}}{\dot {x}}^{2}+{\frac {k}{x}})=0$ so ${\frac {1}{2}}{\dot {x}}^{2}+{\frac {k}{x}}=C$ for some constant $C$. Solve for ${\dot {x}}$ and you get a separable first order equation. —Kusma (talk) 14:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I need to dig out the old textbook and start reading. RJFJR (talk) 19:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

catslash's solution is a one-parameter family (indexed by $t_{0}$) of very nice solutions, but in general you should be able to solve the initial value problem for any initial values of $x$ and ${\dot {x}}$, so you'll get a two parameter family. It is easy to show that the solution exists; you can get an implicit formula from Mathematica or other symbolic computation software. —Kusma (talk) 12:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

German South West Africa

Does anyone know why specifically the Germans were "granted" South-West Africa? I know that they established Lüderitz in 1884, but I can't figure out why they settled there specifically, other than for strategic purposes and proximity to The Cape. Could anyone tell me if there was anything else to it? Thanks! Roosterchz (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it was just about the only coastal part of Africa that was unclaimed by other European powers. Having colonies was thought to be an essential accessory for any country wishing to be a major player on the world stage. The carve-up was confirmed by Berlin Conference in 1884/85. Alansplodge (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

With protectionism and the promulgation of Bismarck's anti-socialist law in 1878-1879, the colonial issue became a matter of interest to important sections of the German ruling classes... A colonial movement led by National Liberal and Free Conservative politicians began, which resulted in the foundation of the German Colonial Association on December 6, 1882... Colonialism became fashionable once the European powers partitioned Africa in earnest. Enthusiastic pressure-groups sprang up throughout Europe, agitating for colonies on economic grounds and as a sign of national greatness... The basic idea underlying this movement was that colonial expansion was ultimately only the logical complement to tariffs on industrial goods. While the duties created more avorable conditions for increasing German exports, entirely new markets were to be secured by the acquisition of colonies abroad...

German Imperialism in Africa: The Distorted Images of Cameroon, Namibia, Tanzania, and Togo

Alansplodge (talk) 19:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Avorable? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 08:46, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

[f]avorable. DuncanHill (talk) 11:38, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, a copying error. :-) Alansplodge (talk) 13:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

See also the Herero Wars for a bit more info, and the German Colonial Society, as mentioned in the extract by Alansplodge above. MinorProphet (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Vlaamse Koning

Also, does anyone know if Leopold II could speak Dutch/Flemish at a native level? I would assume so however, I couldn't find a definitive answer. Thanks again! Roosterchz (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Did he understand Dutch? [He almost certainly did.] Did he speak it? [Almost never.] It was clear that French was still his preferred tongue, as was also the case with his brother, Prince Philip. In stark contrast, Queen Marie-Henriette did make an effort to speak Dutch. This was particularly awkward at state functions at which the royal couple were both present, since the queen babbled away in one national language, while the king continued to talk exclusively in the other! This inability (or unwillingness) of the king and his brother to speak Dutch was occasionally a source of criticism in the Flemish press.

From Belgium and the Monarchy: From National Independence to National Disintegration (p. 49)

Alansplodge (talk) 19:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

May 11

East-west interstates go 10,20,30,40,64,70,80,90 with no 50

The main east-west interstates in the United States, in order from south to north, are 10, 20, 30, 40, 64, 70, 80, and 90; with no 50. The reason there is no I-50 is because they thought that I-50 and US 50 would likely go through the same areas, and that it would be confusing. But, according to the US 50 article, US 50 is north of I-64, and the missing I-50 would be between I-40 and I-64. What's wrong with what I said?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:07, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Two thoughts… first I-64 may have been an afterthought (ie added after they had decided to skip both I-50 and I-60 in the numbering)… second, it seems that I-64 was originally planed to run quite a bit further to the north than it does now. Blueboar (talk) 19:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Where was it initially planned to go?? It goes from Saint Louis through Louisville, Lexington, Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Charlottesville, Richmond, and Norfolk. What cities was it initially planned to go through?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The Feds say that even going through some of the same states as US-50 would have been confusing. Remember, they reversed the numbering system to avoid the US Route numbering system. And I-50 may have never reached the planning stage. Abductive (reasoning) 20:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

May 14

Grade level splitting/staggering in American schools

I am interested in genealogy, and in the course of research I found that many American high school yearbooks over 50 years ago contained both a January graduating class and a June graduating class. Grade levels were split or staggered into "A" and "B" grades, e.g., you weren't in 10th grade, you were either in "10A" or "10B". Presumably one half moved up in January and the other half moved up in June. An example yearbook is here: [10]. Are there any available resources that discuss this historical practice? Helpful Raccoon (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

My high school in Canada did this too! Félix An (talk) 09:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It would likely be up to the rules in a given state (or province) or possibly even the local school board. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

In California, the practice was in reaction to the baby boomers filling the schools faster than the voters approved new spending on facilities and faculty. By the 1970s, there were even split sessions within a single day: morning (7:30am-lunch) and afternoon (lunch-5pm). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 18:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing -- this practice started well before the baby boomers and was being phased out by the 1960s. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 19:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

2004–2009 UAE population boom

According to the World Bank, the total population of the UAE double from 2004 (4m) to 2009 (8m). Was this really the case? Or is it just that the large population of foreign workers was undercounted before and that was fixed during that period? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Their crude birth rate has dropped from around 16‰ in 2000 to around 10‰.[11] That seems to tell most of the story. Remsense诉 08:14, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the inwards migration rate to the UAE reached a peak of 109% in 2007/8 [12] Alansplodge (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Is xe.com a reliable source for checking exchange rates?

Just for making deals/transactions among close friends with foreign currencies (not to send money), is xe.com a WP:RS to check the rates? Félix An (talk) 09:16, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, as long as a 1-2% variation isn't a deal-breaker DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Can the name of Virginia be changed to East Virginia?

East Virginia ~ West Virginia, just like North Carolina ~ South Carolina and North Dakota ~ South Dakota, they are “opposite direction” names, and if so, then we can have a state name starting with the letter E. 2402:7500:92D:FD81:EC83:9EB4:F66F:5867 (talk) 09:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

In theory. But why would they want to? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

North Dakota and South Dakota were decreed into existence by Congress in the 19th century, while the Province of Carolina was split into North Carolina and South Carolina in 1712. In neither case was one considered to be part of the other. However, Virginia existed as a British colony, then a U.S. state, for over 200 years, from the early 17th century until the U.S. Civil War, when it became exceedingly awkward that the northwest part of the state was solidly pro-Union, while the rest was Confederate. The remaining part of the state when West Virginia split off contained the state capital, most of the population, the majority of the land, all of the seacoast, and the political elites who traditionally ran the state, so it was the clear and obvious successor state to the previous undivided commonwealth (state) of Virginia. The Virginia elites did not have positive feelings about West Virginia splitting off, and felt that their part was the "real" historic Virginia, and so were not motivated to rename to "East Virginia". AnonMoos (talk) 10:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

If the name of Virginia be changed to East Virginia, then the game geography using the 50 States of America should be more interesting, since no State of America begins with the letter E but many States of America ends with the letter E (it is widely known that if the first player choose the state Maine, then the second player loses the game immediately, since no State of America begins with the letter E or ends with the letter M). 220.132.230.56 (talk) 11:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The question was can the name be changed. Yes, why not? The US has one state that changed its name, with no problems. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Rhode Island changed its official name to what everyone calls it anyway. Is there anyone in Virginia who calls their state "East Virginia"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Virginia has clung to a name that is only used in official documents and even hardly known among the Virginians themselves.  --Lambiam 19:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

To the contrary, as a Virginia resident for five years, I frequently saw references to the Commonwealth in non-official documents (e.g. they were frequently in my newspaper), and I suspect you couldn't live in Virginia long without being aware of it. Nyttend (talk) 05:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Commonwealth of Massachusetts, for example. Also, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Puerto Rico and Northern Mariana Islands. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The usage might be most prominent in the name of Virginia Commonwealth University. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Every so often a governor of North Dakota will argue for changing it to just "Dakota". Then someone will counter-argue that that cold, desolate state should instead be just "North". And that usually puts an end to it, again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It's like Palo Alto and East Palo Alto. There ain't no West Palo Alto – even though we have a redirect. Actually, most of East Palo Alto is more to the West than most of Palo Alto.

Also San Francisco and South San Francisco, famously nicknamed "The Industrial City". Cullen328 (talk) 20:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Similarly, there is no state of South Rhine-Eastphalia, but no one suggests renaming North Rhine-Westphalia to just Rhine-Phalia. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

For other placenames with geographic directions added which are less impressive than the places with the original unqualified names, see East St. Louis and West New York... -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

May 15

payment aggregators and payment gateways

Is it accurate to categorize payment aggregators and payment gateways as payment infrastructure providers or payment system providers? What distinction would be more precise in describing their role in the payment ecosystem? Grotesquetruth (talk) 11:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Walmart

Matt Stoller tweets:

The spread of Walmart in the 1980s shattered Southern politics, that’s *purely* a trade and antitrust story. The civil rights movement is not why the South went to the right.[13]

What does he mean by that? Walmart shifted Southern politics rightward but not the rest of the country? They are everywhere I thought. Was it just about consolidating retail or was there more, like offshoring manufacturing? Does Amazon have a similar effect now? Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:DBFA:4401:E57A:AAC4 (talk) 11:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Reading the entire Twitter chain, he is merely using Walmart as an example of a larger trend. His argument is that the South turned to the GOP because of economic issues, not Civil Rights issues. Whether he is correct (or not) is not something we should debate on this page. Blueboar (talk) 12:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Aha. I didn't see the rest of the thread. No I didn't want a debate, I just wanted to understand what he is saying. I guess it's not entirely about Walmart. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:DBFA:4401:E57A:AAC4 (talk) 12:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The author making that argument probably also denies that the Civil War was about slavery. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

For the conventional narrative which he's disputing, see Southern strategy... -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

House of Stairs II by M. C. Escher

Resolved

Does that [above] exist? Curl-up article claims it does (uncited}, but I am unable to find evidence. The following is the most comprehensive listing that I found: [14] -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

:Is this the expanded version? Mikenorton (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

M.C. Escher, House of Stairs II, November 1951. Lithograph on 3 sheets of cream wove paper, 139.5 x 36 cm. National Gallery of Canada, Ottawa.

From STEPPING STONES: EXPANDING THE OTHERWORLDLY UNIVERSE OF M.C. ESCHER by the National Gallery of Canada. Alansplodge (talk) 11:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

 Thanks

May 16

Roman Inscriptions

Ancient Roman inscriptions often have a cartouche with triangular wings at the sides. What is the reason/meaning/history of them? You can see an example here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Inscription_in_T%C3%A9bessa,_Algeria_%28EDH_-_F002215%29.jpeg Thank you! 82.56.17.61 (talk) 07:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC) Block evasion. Dekimasuよ! 11:24, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It's the shape of a tabula ansata. An academic reference on this type of inscription frame can be found here. --Wrongfilter (talk) 07:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Numbers and colors on a Japanese calendar

I have seen days on a Japanese calendar labeled with a sequence of numbers 1 to 9 together with colors. Apparently the sequence is called 九星 and goes like this: 一白, 二黒, 三碧, 四緑, 五黄, 六白, 七赤, 八白, 九紫. What does it mean and how is it used? Today, May 16, 2024, is a 二黒 day. What does that mean? 2601:18A:C500:E830:526A:B17D:E5EF:4ACD (talk) 08:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The colour names are those of the colours associated with each star of Nine Star Ki; see Nine Star Ki § Star characteristics and compatibilities.  --Lambiam 13:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

May 18

Concerning cameras

Contax S

When was the 35mm pentaprism camera (SLR) introduced? I know the 35mm size was used by WWII but wasn't those rangefinders. Saw an episode og Hogan's Heroes and a SLR was used, it looked out of place. DMc75771 (talk) 16:26, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

From Single-lens reflex camera: "The first 35 mm SLR available to the mass market, Leica's PLOOT reflex housing along with a 200 mm f4.5 lens paired to a 35 mm rangefinder camera body, debuted in 1935." and "K. Nüchterlein's Kine Exakta (Germany, 1936) was the first integrated 35 mm SLR to enter the market. Additional Exakta models, all with waist-level finders, were produced up to and during World War II." Modocc (talk) 16:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Neither of those had pentaprism viewfinders. The 1949 Contax S was the first pentaprism SLR. DuncanHill (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Hogan's Heroes studio likely used one of the 35mm SLRs in use during WWII. Modocc (talk) 18:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The OP asked about pentaprism cameras. I know Hogan's Heroes was renowned for its historical accuracy and attention to detail, but it is just possible they slipped up on this. DuncanHill (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I forgot. Hogan used a Minox B. Produced a decade later. Modocc (talk) 23:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Wazimamoto

In colonial EaWest Africa (and I believe later, and elsewhere) there was an urban myth, folklore, conspiracy theory or belief that fire engines were used by white people to gather blood these vampires were called wazimamoto. The elements seemed to be that white people are white because they have insufficient blood and that fire engines were red to symbolise blood. In those days it was also common for axes and ladders to be strapped to the side of a fire engine, which could fuel the imagination, perhaps. I think I read an article about this belief on Wikipedia, but I can only find an odd line in the Vampire article. Do we have more?

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 22:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC).

Looks to be more East, than West, African, see Myths, Legends, and Faith: Wazimamoto, Vampires and Blood-Draining in East Africa, and Vehicles and Vampires. DuncanHill (talk) 22:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Other terms include mumiani and banyama. There is material about the history of these terms available online but we do not seem to have anything on Wikipedia at first glance. Dekimasuよ! 01:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

May 22

Healey, Jenkins, and who? Blackpool 1945

In this picture from the 1945 Labour Party Conference in Blackpool we see Major Denis Healey, Captain Roy Jenkins, and three other delegates. Who are the other three? They look familiar but I can't quite place them. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

To me it looks like Hugh Dalton in the middle and Ernest Bevin on the right, though it's hard to positively identify Bevin since he's looking away. Maybe it's Herbert Morrison. I'm unsure about the woman. --Antiquary (talk) 08:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Labour's 1945 female MPs are shown here. Not sure it helps much though. Alansplodge (talk) 14:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it might be Ellen Wilkinson. As it happens, she was my Mother's Godmother, but she died almost ten years before I was born, so I have no direct memories to draw on. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 23:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

May 23

Is Britain the only country to have comedy candididates at elections?

I have added a little to our article on Count Binface, who recently finished ahead of the far-right candidate in the 2024 London mayoral election (see countbinface.com). We have articles on Screaming Lord Sutch and his Official Monster Raving Loony Party and the former Fancy Dress Party. I found this news article; The Top 10: Joke candidates which lists rather more than ten. Are we alone in this, or does it happen elsewhere? Our Perennial candidate article lists a great many hopeless causes from across the globe, but they all appear to take themselves seriously. Alansplodge (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Does Vermin Supreme count? GalacticShoe (talk) 16:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

He certainly does! Any more? I feel a Wikipedia article coming on. Alansplodge (talk) 16:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Pat Paulsen and Jello Biafra --136.54.106.120 (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has List of frivolous political parties and Category:Joke political parties... -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Palito Ortega is a popular singer and comedy actor from Argentina. He was elected governor of the Tucuman Province in 1991. He ran for vicepresident under Eduardo Duhalde in 1999, but lost. Cambalachero (talk) 19:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Did you forget Volodymyr Zelenskyy? An actual comedian who won the presidential election in Ukraine. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

My favorite campaign promise from a joke party (I think 1970s era Monster Raving Loonie… but that could be wrong): “Proposed: to better integrate into the European Common Market the UK will switch from left side of the road driving to right side of the road driving… however, to minimize disruption this will be implemented using a “phased in” approach - starting with heavy cargo vehicles.”

Took me a few seconds to see the joke. Blueboar (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The list by AnonMoos above includes 4 examples from New Zealand, at least 3 of them stood candidates at elections. More recently, the The Wizard of New Zealand who is also called a founder of one of those parties, stood in the 2022 Christchurch mayoral election [15] [16] Nil Einne (talk) 03:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Porn star Mary Carey (actress) ran for governor of California in 2003 on a campaign platform of "taxing breast implants, making lap dances tax-deductible, and creating a 'Porn for Pistols' exchange program. She came in #10 in a field of 135 candidates. Weightlifter and action movie hero Arnold Schwarzenegger became governor. Cullen328 (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

One well-known joke actually became President of the USA for a while. History may even repeat itself. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 24

The Pahlavi Dynasty and the Syrian Civil War

What are the views of the Pahlavi dynasty and/or its supporters on the Syrian civil war? Why? Padates (talk) 03:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Why was Chad not suspended from the African Union as the only country from the Coup Belt?

Literally ALL other countries were suspended

Coup Belt countries (from the page Coup Belt, but reordered for consistency with African Union page quote below)..

• Mali
• Guinea
• Sudan
• Burkina Faso
• Chad
• Niger
• Gabon

From African Union#Member states..

Mali was suspended from the African Union [for the second time] on 1 June 2021, following its second military coup within nine months.
Guinea's membership was also suspended by the African Union on 10 September 2021, after a military coup deposed the country's President Alpha Condé.
Sudan's membership was suspended by the African Union on 27 October 2021, after a military coup deposed the civilian government led by Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok.
Burkina Faso's membership was suspended by the African Union in the aftermath of a military coup on 31 January 2022.
Niger's membership was suspended by the African Union on 22 August 2023 following a military coup in late July that deposed democratically elected president Mohamed Bazoum [...]
Gabon's membership was suspended by the African Union on 31 August 2023 following a military coup that deposed president Ali Bongo Ondimba.

Wallby (talk) 13:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe there is some question about whether the succession of Idriss Deby by his son following his death in 2021 constitutes a coup according to the AU's definition. It is more like a succession that is not in conformity with constitutional texts, which is not the same thing as the military deposing a recognized Head of State. Xuxl (talk) 14:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Timeline of national flags

Could someone please verify if the Uzbekistan flag (1428-1471) is a hoax. And obviously remove it if the answer is Yes --Trade (talk) 15:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Er, that's not there, and the last edit was 2 days ago, so where are you seeing this? --Golbez (talk) 16:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I was meaning to link to the Commons page, not the ENWP article.--Trade (talk) 17:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

According to the file description: This image represents a fictional flag designed to symbolize the Uzbek Khanate (existed between 1428 and 1471 in Central Asia), drawing inspiration from the historical flags and emblems of previous khanates that existed in the region native to Uzbek people. The design incorporates elements and shapes similar to of the Golden Horde and the Timurid Empire [...] --136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:49, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

If the description is right, the author says he made it up. Not exactly a hoax, more like "original research", as a placeholder. Better he should just have posted a blank rectangle as a placeholder. But maybe you should discuss this on Commons rather than here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I wonder how many others are "fictional flags". -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Good luck with your research! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Goddess with offering vessel on head

Is there an Egyptian goddess who had a vessel like 𓎺 as a hat?

Offering vessels

I don't mean the sugarloaf or 𓏐-ish hat in the Tomb of Nakht and elsewhere but I'm also curious about that one.

Temerarius (talk) 21:55, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 12

Questions again

1. Are there any words in English where letter C is pronounced /s/ at the end of word?
2. Are there any words in English where word-final ⟨ge⟩ is pronounced /g/ at the end of word?
3. Are there any words in English where word final -gue and -que are pronounced as /gjuː/ and /kjuː/ respectively?
4. Are there any words in English where letter U is pronounced as /ʊ/ in the beginning of word?
5. Are there any dialects of English that pronounce letter R as an alveolar flap /ɾ/?
6. Are there any dialects of English that are syllable-timed, and do not have vowel reduction?

--40bus (talk) 18:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

5. Scottish English. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:47, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Also Hiberno-English. Must be some Celtic effect. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

3a. ague, argue, and also the name Montague. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Some francophone students once reported to me, laughing, that their ESL teacher had said “Don't arg with me!” —Tamfang (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

3b. It's a rare/alternative form, but que itself is a word pronounced /ˈkjuː/. Edit: I'm realizing now that I failed to notice that one of its meaning is as a clipping of barbeque, which while still an alternative form, is a more common word. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

As for 4, I couldn't find any when I was making File:Initial_Teaching_Alphabet_ITA_chart.svg... AnonMoos (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

As for 6, I believe that certain pronunciations used by some people in India approach this, but you might not want to call them "dialects", and native speakers of quasi-standard English might have difficulty understanding them... AnonMoos (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Item 4 - assuming that's pronounced like the "oo" in book, cook, hook, look, nook, rook, took, etc., one thing that comes to mind is one pronunciation of "Uff da". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:45, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

As for question (2)

I don't believe there are any. Words that make and /eɪ/ is expressed in words ending with a g sound as an "AI." The closest thing I could find is "Mikage" It technically ends with a "Gey" sound but I could see some mispronunciation arising with English speakers. MallardTV (talk) 19:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Rather -geh, I'd say, but okay. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

May 13

English variety where "what it's" is grammatical

I think I've heard there's a variety of English (might be a creole) where sentences like "What it's is..." or "It's what it's" (as opposed to "what it is") are possible. Do you know what that's? Nardog (talk) 04:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Ordinarily in English, stressed words don't contract (cliticize to the preceding word), and in the sentence "It is what it is", both occurrences of "is" are stressed. I can't rule out that there's some form of English without such a constraint, but it would probably be rather remote from quasi-standard English. AnonMoos (talk) 09:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

"It's what it's doing that matters" is normal (British) English, but that sentence moves the stress on to "doing". -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 16:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Also normal in American English, with the same caveat. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

And that's not what I'm asking about. Nardog (talk) 19:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

-er

Is a person who is a beer , a person who must a muster or a person who can a canner? --40bus (talk) 20:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

No.[17][18][19] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

"Beer" is marginally possible (though in a context that makes it clear that there's not a reference to an alcoholic beverage -- see "beable"), but the others are not. In English, modals can have two forms (can/could, may/might, will/would) or one (must, ought). In no case are there non-finite forms. AnonMoos (talk) 21:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand, a canner might muster a beer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

But can an oughter be mayer? GalacticShoe (talk) 08:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

A person who can can is a potential canner. People who can professionally are canners. A person who must muster is an obligatory musterer.  --Lambiam 07:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

And a person who can can can is a dancer.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Beer was a beer but is now a waser. The OED has an entry for it with the definition "One who is or exists; sometimes spec[ifically] the Self-existent, the great I Am", calling it obsolete and rare. They give three usages, the earliest dating from before 1382 and the latest from 1602. No joy on canner or muster. --Antiquary (talk) 08:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I have seen some beers, but Yogi's even beerah'! 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:14, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

If this is an answ, I am an answer. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 15:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

We have "do-er", so "be-er" might be more easily understood than "beer". Alansplodge (talk) 15:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

There was a Usenet-famous character who used to throw the word "beable" around, for some reason. I never knew exactly what it was supposed to mean. But a nice explanation someone came up with is that it's the ontological counterpart to the quantum notion of an observable. --Trovatore (talk) 22:08, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Those might be the same folks who spell "no one" as "noone", which always reminds me of Herman's Hermits. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

To beer or not to beer, that is the questioner. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

May 14

"United States customary units"

We have an article on United States customary units, which is a useful term for what my dad used to call "English units", but which are definitely not the same as Imperial units. I have adopted this term.

But I'm wondering where it comes from (the term, not the system of units). Is it Wikigenic? Or was this terminology in use, systematically in the wild, before our article? We should in general strain to avoid making up terminology using Wikipedia, though in this case I would probably keep using the term anyway given that there's no other really good name. --Trovatore (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewing Newspapers.com (pay site) for the term "U. S. Customary Units", it first turns up in the early 1960s, often in discussions about the supposed superiority of the metric system. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

At least a better term than the confusing and US-centric "standard units" I have encountered online. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

A term which seems to have been basically created on Wikipedia is Oxford spelling, but this wasn't discovered until 2010, and there didn't seem to be anything better to rename it to, so the article title remains... AnonMoos (talk) 01:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This spelling was promulgated by The Oxford Spelling Dictionary, published in 1986, so its being referred to as "Oxford spelling" instead of "spelling of The Oxford Spelling Dictionary" or "Oxford University Press house spelling" was kind of unavoidable ([20], [21]).  --Lambiam 06:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Anyhow, see Units of Weight and Measure (United States Customary and Metric}, United States National Bureau of Standards, 1960.

So apparently the US Government made it up. Alansplodge (talk) 09:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The exact term is also used in these earlier works:

Conference on the Weights and Measures of the United States: Volumes 8-9 (1914), p. 124, and

Measurements of Length and Area: Including Thermal Expansion, Volumes 2-19 (1912), p. 8.

Again, these are United States National Bureau of Standards publications, so it looks as though they are the culprits. Alansplodge (talk) 10:09, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I have added a brief note to United States customary units#History should the question ever arise again. Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

May 15

Talk the hind legs off a donkey

From where does this saying originate? Is it only British? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

talk the hind leg off a donkey: talk incessantly. British informal. In 1808 talking a horse's hind leg off was described as an 'old vulgar hyperbole' in Cobbett's Weekly Political Register, but the version with donkey was current by the mid 19th century. In 1879 Anthony Trollope mentioned talk the hind leg off a dog as an Australian variant.

English Idioms (p. 286) by Matthew Evanoff. Alansplodge (talk) 10:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

The source at Cultural references to donkeys (Davis, Graeme (2007). Dictionary of Surrey English. Peter Lang. p. 174. ISBN 978-3-03911-081-0.) also has horses and dogs. It says that the idea is to talk a donkey into sitting down, which would require exception skills, as a donkey does not sit. So the other variants seem to miss the point. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Although the recorded use of horses predates donkeys by at least half a century, so that seems a bit speculative. Alansplodge (talk) 11:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. And his suggestion that "dog" is a "Surrey substitution" equally so. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That Evanoff source might be better one for Cultural references to donkeys? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, but it's "independently published" which WP doesn't like much. Alansplodge (talk) 11:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You could use an identically-worded definition from John Ayto, ed. (2010). Oxford Dictionary of English Idioms (Third ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 347. ISBN 978-0-19-954378-6. DuncanHill (talk) 10:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

So done; many thanks. Alansplodge (talk) 10:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

"accidents and conveniences"

The article on Erik Sparre mentions "accidents and conveniences" based on "Sparre argued that the dukes had only a dominium utile in their duchies: their claim to enjoy their rights 'as freely as the king does in his dominions' applied therefore only to the 'accidents and conveniences' (tilhörigheter och nyttigheter), and by no means implied a sovereign authority." A longer quote is " med alla deras tillhörigheter och nyttigheter lika som vi dem på kronans vägnar själva innehaft " [with all their belongings and benefits just as we ourselves held them on behalf of the crown - via Google translate].

What is meant by "accidents" and "conveniences" and is it possible to translate the phrase into more modern English? I found the same phrase here from 1868. TSventon (talk) 13:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Legalese terms can generally not be translated by some snappy "modern English" term. In the Google translation you supplied of the longer quote, tillhörigheter och nyttigheter is translated though as "belongings and benefits", which roughly covers the idea and is understandable modern English. The sense of "accident" is sense 5 given at the entry for this word on Wiktionary:

Any property, fact, or relation that is the result of chance or is nonessential or nonsubstantive.

So this includes, for example, farms that happen to be on the land of the duchy. A legal term one might use is appurtenances, but that term may not be commonly understood. The nyttigheter comprise anything that is of use; the right to such use is also called "usufruct".  --Lambiam 05:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

References

May 17

Pangram

The abbreviation of the 7 days of the week -> not pangram, no B, C, G, J, K, L, P, Q, V, X, Y, Z

The abbreviation of the 12 months -> not pangram, no H, I, K, Q, W, X, Z

The symbol of the 118 chemical elements -> not pangram, no J, Q

The abbreviation of the 88 constellations -> not pangram, no J, K, W, Z

The abbreviation of the 50 states of America -> not pangram, no B, Q

So the abbreviation of which thing is a pangram? 1.165.122.186 (talk) 10:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

IATA airport code should do it (unless I misunderstood your question). 41.23.55.195 (talk) 10:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, broadcast call signs, at least here in the US, and probably in many more countries. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:58, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

One could argue that the Alphabet itself is a pangram, since each of the letters is a written abbreviation of that letter's spoken name, and the historical origin of the alphabet means that the original names came first. I doubt however that that is the answer sought.

The earliest known form of the alphabet we now use was based on Egyptian heiroglyphs (and speech): it was predated by the similar-in-principle Egyptian uniliteral signs, but there seems to be no connection between them. The latter might also therefore be considered a pangram. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 11:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The first two are unsurprising, since it's logically impossible for a set of 7 or 12 elements to contain 26 distinct elements. If you're going by ordinary words, then only a few English dictionary words begin with "X" (a perennial problem for alphabet books), and initial "Z" is also somewhat uncommon. AnonMoos (talk) 11:41, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Why does the word have to begin with "x" or "z"? What does that have to do with it? The most famous pangram uses "x" from fox and "z" from lazy. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 11:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Consider the six words:

cwm, fjord, bank, glyph, vext, quiz

The plural “s” can be added in back of one of the first five words (it cannot be added in back of one of the word “quiz”, since its plural is quizzes), and then we have a pangram which uses all letters exactly once. 220.132.230.56 (talk) 15:10, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

That's really neat but how does it relate to the op's question? 41.246.129.210 (talk) 15:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's logically impossible for abbreviations for days of the week (even if you use Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun) but Jan, Feb, Mar to Dec gives 36 elements. Of course you can use J,F,M,A,M,J,J,A,S,O,N,D as abbreviations (12 elements) but what month is "J"? 41.23.55.195 (talk) 11:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It is surprising that the mode for the first letter of the months is J but no single symbol of the chemical elements contain the letter J, since they are from the similar ancient names (e.g. cerium is from 1 Ceres, palladium is from 2 Pallas, and the month June is from 3 Juno), also, neptunium is from Neptune, and the first suggestion name of Neptune is Janus, if Neptune was named Janus rather than Neptune, then element 93 will be named “Janium” (like element 92: Uranium, which was named after Uranus), and its symbol would be Jn (or J, or Ja), I think that this name is better, since element 93 is the first transuranium element, thus can be the first element with a “J” in both its name and its symbol. (Note that the month January was named after Janus) 220.132.230.56 (talk) 15:05, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The month of June derives from the Roman month of Iunius or Junius, which was named after the goddess Juno. It certainly wasn't named after the asteroid Juno (itself also named after the goddess Juno), which wasn't discovered until the 19th century. Proteus (Talk) 15:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Between 1999 and 2012 (inclusive), the element symbols were one step closer to a pangram, since flerovium (Fl) still had its temporary name ununquadium (Uuq).

In some old periodic tables J replaces I for iodine (maybe to abbreviate German Jod). But this and Q wouldn't have been available at the same time. Double sharp (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

One of the Transfermium Wars elements was Jl (joliotium) for dubnium. —Kusma (talk) 10:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

True! But unfortunately, the current names of 104-109 became final in 1997, just before 114 was discovered in 1999, so the periodic table just missed being a pangram. :( Double sharp (talk) 05:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Scandalous! 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Neptunium is from Neptune, and the first suggestion name of Neptune is Janus, if Neptune was named Janus rather than Neptune, then element 93 will be named “Janium” (like element 92: Uranium, which was named after Uranus), and its symbol would be Jn (or J, or Ja), and if so, when element 104 was discovered (named Unnilquidium, symbol Unq) would be a pangram. 220.132.230.56 (talk) 12:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I think that “IUPAC 94“ plan is the best, I want to replace the current set of names by this set of names (replace elements 104, 105, 106, 108). 220.132.230.56 (talk) 06:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There was rather a huge outcry against that set, which denied the undisputed discoverers of 106 and 108 the right to choose their names. :) I'd be a lot happier with a solution that kept the present names, except for renaming 102 to joliotium, since Dubna actually found it and the Swedish institute (whence the name nobelium) didn't. But what's done is done, and opening that can of worms won't be very productive. Double sharp (talk) 02:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I want this J in the periodic table, could you email IUPAC to rename element 102 to joliotium? Please. 1.165.115.5 (talk) 09:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Another question: Use the symbol of the 118 chemical elements, and the abbreviation of the 88 constellations, and the abbreviation of the 50 states of America, what is the least words we need to make a pangram? 49.217.196.102 (talk) 10:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Aql, B, Cu, Fm, Gd, KY, NJ, Oph, Sex, VT, WI, Zr is a perfect pangram. I’m not sure is there a lesser list of words. Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 09:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Wow! A perfect pangram exists! 220.132.230.56 (talk) 05:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I am curious how you found it? 2402:7500:917:186C:C15C:2E75:1297:EE48 (talk) 08:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

1. List all the chemical element symbols, state abbreviations, and constellation abbreviations.
2. Find the rarest alphabet. In the first iteration, it will be J.
3. Pick anything that contains this rarest alphabet. J only appears in NJ, so I must use it.
4. Delete everything that contains other alphabets in that thing you chose. As I picked NJ, I have to delete N, In, Nor, and a lot of others that contained N.
5. Repeat until a perfect pangram appears.

Nucleus hydro elemon (talk) 10:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Nitpick, but a single character is a letter (or possibly glyph), alphabet refers to the whole combined system of characters. (Wikipedia refers to it as a "standard set of letters".) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, so how many solutions of perfect pangram exist? 61.224.168.169 (talk) 10:50, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

How many solutions of perfect pangram exist? Also, how many things (chemical elements, constellations, states of America) are contained in every perfect pangram? Or not contained in any perfect pangram? 220.132.230.56 (talk) 14:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Some other solutions from your solution:

1. Replace B to Yb, replace KY to K
2. Replace B to Bi, replace WI to W
3. Replace Cu to C and U
4. Replace KY to K and Y
5. Replace B to Bh, replace Oph to Po
6. Replace Sex to S and Xe
7. Replace Cu to Tc and U, replace VT to V

220.132.230.56 (talk) 14:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

In ISO 3166-1, both the two- and three-letter code sets form pangrams. Many are abbreviations of the country name, though compromises had to be made to avoid duplicates. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 15:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Even the English name of all nonnegative integers is not pangram, no J, K, see (sequence A073029 in the OEIS). 220.132.230.56 (talk) 05:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Until they pin down wikt:jazillion and wikt:kazillion. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 08:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

May 18

vowel length contrast

I speak some Italian, so am familiar with short and long (geminate) consonants; but I am not acquainted with any language that contrasts short and long vowels. Presumably such languages have shibboleths, sentences whose meanings are humorously changed when learners get vowel quantity wrong; can you point me to where I might hear examples? —Tamfang (talk) 19:33, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

A classic example is that in Latin malum with a long "a" vowel means "apple", while malum with short "a" means "evil thing". Not sure if it was used in jokes, but it may have influenced the Western European Christian idea that the fruit in the Garden of Eden was an apple. (Jews in the eastern Mediterranean area usually assumed it was a fig...). AnonMoos (talk) 07:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Now I remember that religious satire site godhatesfigs.com, parodying Fred Phelps using actual Scripture citations. Except for the fig in Adam and Eve, there were several citations from that rather bizarre incident where Jesus sees a fig tree, that doesn't bear fruits since it's not in season, and gets so angry he commands a thunderbolt to incinerate it. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Our List of Latin phrases (M) has:

malum discordiae, "apple of discord" Alludes to the apple of Eris in the Judgement of Paris, the mythological cause of the Trojan War. It is also a pun based on the near-homonymous word malum (evil)... Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

One bad apple? DuncanHill (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

There are plenty of Uranus jokes. Alansplodge (talk) 12:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Japanese has vowel length contrast – see Japanese phonology#Long vowels and vowel sequences. I don't know if anyone deliberately uses it humorously; the examples given in that article suggest scope for such. It might be harder in Japanese though as vowel length is much more distinct. --217.23.224.20 (talk) 11:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

In season 1 of Sailor Moon, in a next-episode-preview, Usagi (Sailor Moon) asks her cat, Luna, does she like skiing, which in Japanese is "suki sukii?" ("すきスキー?"). So, there's one sort-of example ^_^ 73.2.86.132 (talk) 09:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Are you sure it's not "sukii suki?" ("スキーすき?") To me, it would sound more natural, although my knowledge of Japanese is limited... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Another language with vowel length is a variety of Chinese, Cantonese: see Cantonese phonology#Vowels and finals. Long vowels though are more distinct from short ones than e.g. Japanese as they're often realised differently, or not at all – the only finals with a fairly complete set of short and long pairs are those beginning /a/ and /a:/ – and can be analysed as just distinct sounds.

I am more familiar with Cantonese than Japanese but cannot think of any examples of wordlplay that involves changes in length. Instead it more often is based on the initial of a character, and the final (including any length) is fixed. 8 in Chinese is considered lucky as its sound 'baat' is like that for prosperity 'faat' – Chinese numerology#Eight. --217.23.224.20 (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

A few German words are distinguished by vowel length, which slightly confusingly often isn't marked on the vowel itself, but the following consonant (generally, a double consonant follows a short vowel). A well-known funny example is Massen (short /a/) and Maßen (long /a:/): "Ich trinke in Maßen" means "I drink in moderation" but "Ich trinke in Massen" means "I drink in great quantities". Smurrayinchester 14:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, that vowel length/ geminate consonant pairing is common in most Germanic languages outside of English, so it might not be that confusing. That ss vis-a-vis ß (often transcribed as ss) would change a word's meaning is quite notable, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 19

Numbers

What languages stay monosyllabic to high numbers? What if 0 has to be monosyllabic too? Circa what fraction of humans use over and under 11 syllables to say 1 to 10 in their native language? What fraction of Europe residents or Indo-European languages use over/under 11 syllables? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The names of the numbers from zero to ten, as well as the names of a number of powers of ten, are monosyllabic in Chinese, as you can see at https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_(Mandarin)/Numbers . It would not be very natural for names of higher numbers which are not multiples of the number system's base (such as "43" or "67" or whatever) to be systematically monosyllabic in a human language. AnonMoos (talk) 23:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Though if 12 is monosyllabic in English the record might be at least 11. Maybe some large base language could reach 20 or more? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

French is monosyllabic up to 16 except for 14. All of them are distinct words which is another way of thinking of it. For 17, 18 and 19, then 21 upwards, French uses compound multisyllabic names for numbers.

For Chinese powers of ten work like English and similar languages, except using 10,000 instead of 1,000 to build large numbers, so everything above 10,000 is compound except for named powers of 10,000. Everything that isn't a unit or power of ten is compound, although some dialects have single character/syllables for 20 (廿) and others - see Chinese numerals. --92.40.47.76 (talk) 00:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess it's arguable whether the /wa/ in 'trois' s a true monophthong, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I think most people would consider 'trois' a monosyllable, which is what SMW is investigating. I challenge you to write a spoken line in which 'trois' can plausibly function as a disyllable. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 11:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, it's a glide... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

May 21

The NATO phonetic alphabet is prescriptive, not descriptive

Can anyone tell me exactly what this means?? I'm used to these adjectives as dictionary descriptions. Prescriptive dictionaries tell only the definitions of words perceived as proper; descriptive dictionaries tell all the definitions of words people actually use. (In my experience, most dictionaries fall in between these 2 descriptions.) But how do these terms describe the NATO phonetic alphabet?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

That phrase doesn't appear in our article, so there's no way for me to take context into account, but it seems pretty straightforward: the codes used are prescribed (i.e. you have to use the ones provided or you are using them incorrectly) and not described (i.e. the set you see was not built up of what users were already found to be using and you may choose to follow or not follow it). Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. Matt Deres (talk) 17:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps (I'm guessing) someone wanted to contrast the sense of phonetic alphabet as used in the name "International Phonetic Alphabet" with that used in "NATO phonetic alphabet". Someone familiar with both, not knowing how the name Slough is pronounced, will be helped by the IPA transcription /slaʊ/. To them, this transcription describes the pronunciation. The NATO phonetic alphabet is not informative in this respect; it does not describe pronunciations. If that is indeed what is meant, it represents a limited viewpoint. We can help someone desiring to know how to write the name of this little town by spelling it out as Sierra Lima Oscar Uniform Golf Hotel. The NATO phonetic alphabet describes spellings. IPA transcriptions are not informative in this respect.

Neither alphabet is prescriptive in the usual sense of that term. Some organizations prescribe the use of the NATO spelling alphabet for spelling purposes.  --Lambiam 06:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

In other words, "NATO phonetic alphabet" is simply a misnomer. "NATO spelling alphabet" would be a more accurate name. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

occupation-derived names

is there a term for the name trend that includes swimmer's ear, tennis elbow, plumber's crack, etc.? Arlo James Barnes 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

An eponym variation? --136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know a name for such compound terms with an occupational epithet, but here are a few for your collection: baker's dozen · baker's itch · banker's dozen · banker's lamp · banker's ramp · barber's block · barber's clerk · barber's itch · brewer's droop · bricklayer's itch · builder's bum · builder's mug · builder's remedy · builder's tea · businessman's LSD · businessman's lunch · butcher's apron · butcher's bill · butcher's broom · butcher's mourning · butler's assistant · butler's steak.  --Lambiam 08:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Occupational eponyms. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

"Businessman's lunch" reminds me of "Merchant's Lunch", a strange song well-known to fans of the Red Clay Ramblers or Austin Lounge Lizards... -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

English article

Words such as user and union begin with vowel letter but with consonant sound. Are words like year and yellow also such words? Does English consider letter Y to be vowel?--40bus (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

English considers y in year and yellow to be a consonant, in rye, city it is a vowel, see Y#Vowel. TSventon (talk) 20:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• This has nothing to do with the English article, despite your title.
• Kids are typically taught about vowels as being letters, and nothing else. And that there are exactly 5 of them (A,E,I,O,U), and no more. And that every word has at least one of them. That mash of misinformation gets them so far, but then trouble strikes when they consider words like my, fly, shy, hmm, shhh etc. Where's the missing vowel?, they cry. Then they're told that the Y substitutes as a vowel, but it's really not a vowel at all. And that hmm and shhh are not even words to begin with, just sounds we make - except they appear in dictionaries, so ... let's just pretend that's not so. Again with the misinformation.
• What they should be told is that vowels are sounds first and foremost, and that we have created a wide array of letters and letter combinations to represent those sounds. Most of the sounds can be represented using the iconic 5 letters we're taught as children, but there are some cases where extra help is required. Such as pity, my, fly, cry etc. Pity has 2 vowel sounds, which we represent using a I and a Y. In this case, Y is a vowel letter, exactly like A or I or O. In year and yellow, Y is a consonant letter, as it is in most other cases. So Y has a dual role. Even W is sometimes a vowel letter, as in cwm (borrowed from Welsh but now accepted as a Scrabbleworthy English word).
• I'm sure a case could be made for some other consonant letters to be considered vowel letters in some circumstances. Take hi - that's pretty straightforward. But what about high? Is it that the vowel is I, and the G and H are just silent letters? Or is it that the entire set of IGH is a vowel letter-combination? Or is it that each of I, G and H are vowel letters? Hmm. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

JackofOz -- It does have to do with the indefinite article (the distribution of the forms "a" and "an")... AnonMoos (talk) 03:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I am so bored to see "a year", "a unit", "a European", "an hour", "an MRI", "an S" etc., since "an year", "an unit", "an European", "a hour", "a MRI", "a S" etc. would be better as the first three begin with a vowel letter and the last three with a consonant letter. In Hungarian, definite articles a and az are determined similarly to a and an, but there are no words in Hungarian that begin with vowel letter but consonant sound. It would be better if English articles were determined by grammatical gender rather than this. --40bus (talk) 05:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Unit and European are examples of words that begin with a vowel letter but a consonant sound. Whether something is considered a vowel for a/an purposes depends, as I stated above, on the sound, not the spelling. The initial sounds in year, unit, and European, are consonant sounds (y), hence they take a, not an. The initial sounds in hour, MRI and S are vowel sounds (the h is silent in hour, and the initialisms are spoken letter by letter (em-, es-). Hence they take an, not a. Comparing this feature of English with Hungarian or any other language would seem to be somewhat unproductive, imo. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I am truly sorry to hear that the particular features of the English language, having occurred through centuries of evolution, would bore you. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Wakuran, I truly share this feeling with you. –Austronesier (talk) 18:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I am more than sorry, I am pissed off. 40bus has a habit of asking about why certain languages (most often English) do things and speaking about how they wish that it was done some other way (often saying that it "should" be done another way). It is rude and arrogant. If 40bus has such a dismissive opinion of English, they are welcome to stop using it. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 10:37, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe he's not bored enough yet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

40bus -- I am of course distressed to learn of your emotionally fatigued state, but "year" has always begun with a consonant sound in the English language, and "hour" with a vowel sound. It's only the spellings which might indicate otherwise -- and in fact, in practical terms, the spelling of "year" is NOT very ambiguous, since "y" is almost always a vowel letter only in Greek words and word-finally (and in a very few other cases, such as to distinguish "dyed" from "died", or also as the second element of visual diphthongs, if you want to count that). "Year" doesn't look much like a borrowing from Greek, and the "y" is not at the end of the word, so that the "y" letter is unambiguously consonantal there. And when there was a diphthong sonority shift from [iw] to [ju] in early modern English, this did not happen for the purpose of inconveniencing speakers of other languages, or giving them material with which to spin conlang reform fantasies. English spelling as we know it today is the result of historical relics caused when spelling did not change after pronunciations changed, and also due to conflicting influences and tendencies being accommodated within the same system; if you can't handle that, then best not to bother with English (or restrict yourself to the spoken language only)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Sadly, there's a growing tendency for young persons to say things like "In this box is [sic] a apple, a orange, a apricot, a abacus, a octopus, a elephant, a ultra light aircraft, a imitation diamond, a upper molar, a intrepid explorer, and a expired library book". (This may not be an actual quotation, you understand.) If newbies to the language copy such atrocities, as newbies are wont to do, heaven knows where it will all end. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It is the logical continuation of the n-dropping that started when people ceased to properly articulate an bōc, an cū, mīn cyningdōm for an hors, and so forth, and began to say a book, a cow.  --Lambiam 22:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

In my euphonious world, ugliness is never logical. The world I'm forced to live in against my will is populated by creatures with tin ears and hollow hearts and mashed brains. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The "rule" governing the use of a vs an is (apart from the "phonologically deviant prestige construction" of an historic and the like) is completely independent of written English. It is acquired by English-speaking children before they begin to learn to read. ColinFine (talk) 09:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I got confused when I saw an historic, but apparently it's a native variation, rather than a prescribed form. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes: older/traditionalist BrE speakers use 'an' before 'h-' if the word is not stressed on the first syllable – so "a history lesson" but "an historic occasion". Usually the 'h' is barely pronounced at all, so the latter may sound like "an 'istoric occasion".

Then again, some varieties of informal/"lower class" accents/dialects drop the initial 'h' of all words, and therefore use 'an' before them. This is characteristic of, though not confined to, Cockney.

I myself do the former in written and formal speech, and the latter in informal speech. 94.2.67.173 (talk) 17:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I knew about the Cockney 'abit of "dropping the aitches". I would assume there's been jokes about Cockney speakers hypercorrectingly saying stuff like "a hour", as well. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a gag in My Fair Lady where Higgins tries to get Eliza to sound the h's in the sentence "In Hertford, Hereford, and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen." She repeats it as "In 'ertford, 'ereford, and 'ampshire, 'urricanes 'ardly hever 'appen." Deor (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Google finds this in an 1892 novel:

"What queer Henglish these Yankees speak! It's not Queen's Henglish, such as we native Londoners use at 'ome, my darlink." [22]

However, I lived in East London for the first 50 years of my life and have never heard anybody speak that way. Alansplodge (talk) 18:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I have heard some Italians speaking English and randomly dropping or inserting aitches, though... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

What a mistake-a to make-a! DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Notes

May 23

Three questions

1. Is there any language where letter A can be pronounced as a consonant?
2. Why does Italian not write the etymological H in words like uomo, uovo, idrologia and avere?
3. Is there any Spanish dialect that has not undergone diphthongization of /o/ and /e/ to /ue/ and /ie/, and thus say ovo, porta, morto and cento instead of huevo, puerta, muerto and ciento?

--40bus (talk) 04:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you ever get bored with all this minutia? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:56, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

1. All 28 letters of the Arabic alphabet are treated as consonants, including the first letter, alif, which in its long form can be considered the equivalent of the letter A. When used as a consonant, it is unvoiced (to simplify things greatly). Xuxl (talk) 14:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Aleph seems to work that way in Semitic languages in general. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 22:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

2. I believe Italian orthography largely goes back to Dante Alighieri, and at that time, it wasn't considered necessary or relevant. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

According to this timeline of the Italian language, "h" and "x" tended to disappear in the latter half of the 16th century, postdating Dante by a couple of centuries. But still, OP presents a stupid question. Why does Italian not write the useless leading H? Well, they do, to differentiate a few homophones. Otherwise, the answer is "because it's useless and scribes got tired of it." --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 16:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

We could wish that it were a singular minutia, but it is cumulatively many minutiae. —Tamfang (talk) 03:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

For item 1, I doubt the situation has changed substantially in the last year: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2023_April_3. —Amble (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

"Wouldn't you like to know?" origin/occurrence

I've been trying to find the origin/early occurrences/etc. of the English phrase "Wouldn't you like to know?" used sarcastically. Wiktionary doesn't have an entry for it, OED just has its origin listed as "1860" with no cited source. It's difficult to search Google Books for because you often don't get enough context to tell at a glance if it's being used earnestly or not (the phrase seems to be used non-rhetorically fairly often even into the 20th century). I find this use[23] in an 1868 periodical, and while it is pointed out explicitly by the narrator that the use is sarcastic, it is clearly not a "novel" use or one that would be unfamiliar to the reader; it thus seems unlikely to me that this sense actually originates in the 1860s (or could language have really evolved that fast back then?). It's a weird set phrase that evolved from a phrase that otherwise has basically no meaning (as a modern native speaker it's hard to understand why one would ask "wouldn't you like to know" non-rhetorically). Google Ngrams shows a massive rise in usage starting around the year 2000, but this is almost certainly just a result of weighting errors (an artifact found near-universally when searching Ngrams). Any earlier sources/theories/similar evolutions would be appreciated -- I find no analogues with other English set phrases.

(As a side note, in asking a breadth of friends/family members/co-workers if they've ever heard a non-rhetorical (or further non-sarcastic) use of the phrase, I found that basically everyone born after Gen X remembers first encountering the phrase in the viral "Wouldn't you like to know, weather boy?" video from 2017. Google Ngrams shows literally zero bump in occurences from 2017, and relative usage actually decreases from then on... Obviously highly anecdotal, but interesting nonetheless.)

Thank you! (fugues) (talk) (fugues) (talk) 05:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm seeing it in possibly-sarcastic usage in newspapers as far back as the 1850s. It was also the closing line of a Superman TV episode from 1952, where a seemingly intelligent computer is asked "Who is Superman?" and the computer gives that as the answer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

This is an interesting question and having been born in 1952, the same year as the Superman TV episode Baseball Bugs mentioned, I was not exposed to its usage before the portrayal of artificial intelligence in that TV show. I think as a stark phrase, it is almost universally sarcastic and and often confrontational. But I can see it being used in an expanded form in another context. Imagine an educational TV segment about jewelry making where the host starts by saying, "Wouldn't you like to know how to make the delicate gold filigree on this necklace? Well, I am going to show you how." Cullen328 (talk) 08:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I can push it back a little to a poem or song in a popular magazine:

I know a girl with teeth of pearl, / And shoulders white as snow; / She lives, - ah well, / I must not tell, / Wouldn't you like to know? / Her eyes are blue (celestial hue!) / And dazzling in their glow; / On whom they beam / With melting gleam, / Wouldn't you like to know? The Family Herald, London, 1864 (p. 42)

Alansplodge (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

A bit more digging finds the sheet music for this, should you wish to sing along. Lyrics by John Godfrey Saxe and music by John Wallace Hutchinson of the Hutchinson Family Singers, dated 1862 in New York. The title of a song popular on both sides of the Atlantic seems a good starting point. Alansplodge (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that poem is even older than that. But is it sarcastic, or merely teasing? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The Oxford American College Dictionary gives the meaning of this phrase as, "used to express the speaker's firm intention not to reveal something in spite of a questioner's curiosity". The speaker may intend to mock the questioner, but they may also be merely playful.  --Lambiam 08:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Kind of a cousin to "That's for me to know and you to [not!] find out!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 13

Don Martin and Monty Python

There is a discussion going on in Facebook about a cartoon that Don Martin drew for Mad Magazine, titled "One Menza-Menza Day in October". In the cartoon, a factory owner tells his son "One day, all this will be yours" and shows him a view of the factory from his office window. Later, his son tells him "Thanks, Dad!" and takes the window and curtains with him.

Did this inspire the famous "What, the curtains?" scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or the other way around? Or is this a coincidence? JIP | Talk 23:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Henny Youngman used to say there are no new jokes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The version I like is of an impoverished man showing his son his sole earthly possession, an awl, and saying "Some day, son, this awl will be yours". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The movie came out in 1975. When was Don Martin's cartoon published? It would seem to me whichever was released first could not be inspired by the other... RudolfRed (talk) 05:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Reminiscent of The Muppet Show gag, where a doorbell rings and Kermit says, "Animal, get the door!". Animal returns carrying a door. Boom, boom! Alansplodge (talk) 14:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Baldrick in Blackadder II did that too. Come to think of it, Blackadder more than once claimed that Baldrick had animal relatives. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It didn't appear in Mad; it appeared in Cracked #240 (see here about half way down the page). The issue was from 1985, so Monty Python couldn't have been inspired by it. By 1985, Holy Grail was already a cult favourite, so inspiration the other way is at least possible. Matt Deres (talk) 20:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

May 15

Lead actor in a supporting role

Is it unusual for an actor in a leading role – listed first in the acting credits – to campaign for and be nominated for Best Supporting Actor for that role? This is in regard to the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. According to the article supporting actor there are no specific criteria for the difference between nominations for supporting or lead actor/actress roles at the Academy Awards and each case is considered individually. So I'm wondering if it's an unusual practice (and therefore possibly noteworthy). – Reidgreg (talk) 14:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say that it's possibly noteworthy. For that matter, it's a relatively new thing for actors (broadest sense) to actively campaign openly for an award of any type. Campaigning has long been the norm, but there always was a sense of plausible deniability: so-and-so just happened to make the talk show rounds, "the studio" was pushing for it, etc. It would have been unseemly and self-aggrandizing to say (out loud) "Yeah, I think my performance was worthy of Oscar consideration..." To do so for a "lesser" award would add layers of intrigue. Matt Deres (talk) 15:59, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Unlikely. There are a few instances where it might have made sense. For example, Bette Davis and Anne Baxter were both nominated for best actress for All About Eve. If they had been worried about splitting the Eve votes, enabling someone else (Judy Holliday) to win, then the scenario could have played out ... if only Celeste Holm and Thelma Ritter hadn't both been nominated for supporting actress for the same film! Clarityfiend (talk) 12:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

May 16

Glass with ice in "Perfect Days"

In Wim Wenders's Tokyo-located film Perfect Days, the main character several times goes into a bar (different bars, I think) and the waiter offers him a glass with a clear liquid and ice saying something to the effect of "For your day's hard work". Is that a Japanese custom or is it a courtesy offered by those bars to that customer? What is in the glass? Water? --Error (talk) 22:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

今日も一日お疲れ様でした, "Thank you for your hard work of today", is a common somewhat formulaic Japanese way of greeting a worker at the end of their workday. An American bartender might just say, "Hi", or if they are chatty, "How's it rolling?". The liquid is probably just water.  --Lambiam 06:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

--Error (talk) 22:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

May 18

Any ongoing competitive series about home or amateur cooks?

For all I know, there are MasterChef versions, like MasterChef (British TV series) and MasterChef Australia. I don't want short-lived ones, like Best Home Cook or Top Chef Amateurs, or any show about bakers, like The Great British Bake Off. Well, there are categories of such competitions, but I think creating a subcategory of them is risky and subject to guidelines. George Ho (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@George Ho: If I recall correctly Chopped_(TV_series) has both amateur and professional contestants. RudolfRed (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@RudolfRed: Hmm... I'm thinking only amateur cooks, unfortunately. George Ho (talk) 18:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You might have a browse through Category:Cooking television series by country. Alansplodge (talk) 12:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@RudolfRed: You're thinking of Cooks vs. Cons. Chopped has only pros. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:29, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The original Australia My Kitchen Rules is possibly ongoing. The NZ spinoff My Kitchen Rules NZ is also sort of ongoing, I don't think it was specifically cancelled with the rest cancellations but I suspect the prospect of any future season will depend on the current one. No idea of the South African one. Nil Einne (talk) 09:03, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I think various Come Dine with Me are also ongoing although I believe the competition tends to be more limited despite there being a winner and a smallish vash prize, whatever may have happened in 2016. Nil Einne (talk) 09:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

May 19

Looking for a spy movie

I'm looking for a - presumably - spy movie that must be from the 1960s or 1970s. I remember a scene in it in which a group (I can't remember exactly whether it was the good guys or the bad guys, but I suspect the former) retreated into a bug-proof room. This transparent/translucent greenhouse-like thing was bug-proof because water flowed around it from above, like a curtain. Does anyone know what movie this might be? I don't think it can be the Mini-Max series with its cones of silence, I can remember the water very clearly, and it was probably not a parody. The room was also big enough for a conference table for several people. Besides, I was too young or not even born to have seen the series on television in the 1960s or 1970s; if it had been in the 1990s, I would probably still remember it. --Thorbjoern (talk) 15:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

By way of clarification, I suggest that "the Mini-Max series" (that this isn't) was Get Smart. --142.112.143.8 (talk) 01:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Get Smart's primary joke was the Cone of Silence. There were variations, such as a Closet of Silence. There was also the Umbrella of Silence, big enough for a table and four people. It had plastic sheeting around it to look like water pouring off. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 17:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

May 23

Reverse of a picardy third

Listen to the Exciters song "Tell Him". The chorus is in E major, but (according to all sheet music sources for this song) the final word "now" is on an E minor chord. This is the reverse of a picardy third. Does this have a special name?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

On a listen, the chorus in the Exciters version is in F major, and the guitarist clearly comps F major on that final word/the following final two bars of the chorus. The original version (performed by Gil Hamilton, as "Tell Her") has the chorus in Bb major, and the harmony for the bars in question is similarly Bb major. The same transcription error popping up in multiple sheet music sources is a relatively common occurrence in popular song, usually stemming from an error in a hastily-made fake book chart that later gets copied into "official" transcriptions/arrangements.

If such a harmonic progression had occured here (to a minor chord), it would be considered a type of modulation to the parallel minor (sometimes termed "parallel modulation"), as the following sections (the verses) are in an F minor tonality. In addition, the term "Picardy third" is typically only applied to the end of a work/large structural section (the latter chiefly in Western classical music), so a movement at the end of a verse-chorus form section isn't quite analogous. (fugues) (talk) 01:16, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

May 10

Instagram stars

How old are Kristina Musatova and Jessgotjugs? 176.200.133.219 (talk) 11:16, 10 May 2024 (UTC):

"Musatova was born on August 6, 1995, in Russia." Wikipedia will not allow a direct link to the source (blacklisting), but you can find it on starktimes.com using the search box. No idea how reliable the source is. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 13:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

This YouTube clip says that Jessgotjugs was born in 2005. Again, probably not a reliable source. Alansplodge (talk) 13:06, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

But it's published by the most beautiful YouTube channel? Zanahary (talk) 03:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

May 14

California Electoral College Result (2020)

Hi. I'll preface this by saying that I'm not an English speaker and maybe it was some kind of slang, I certainly didn't quite understand: when the Secretary of State announced the result of the vote cast by the Electoral College, at 0.12 in the link below, what exactly did she say? Thank you very much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ-tXzmMIHk 2.39.110.85 (talk) 11:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

She announced that there had been 55 "aye" (note that this word is pronounced exactly like the pronoun "I" or the body part "eye".) votes and 0 "no" votes. "Aye" is a word that is uncommon in general English usage, but is often used in the context of voting. It is an affirmative or assenting response. Basically it means "yes". So, 55 people said "yes, I am voting for Biden". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It would have been in common use in the 18th-century at the time of Independence. "Aye" is also used in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom. It survives in everyday use in some English varieties and dialects, notably Scottish English, and also in Anglophone navies, where "Aye, aye sir!" is the required response to an order. Alansplodge (talk) 15:17, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I've just seen that Wikipedia has Yes and no#Aye and variants. Alansplodge (talk) 15:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to mention the stereotypical New England "ayeh". I don't know whether that still exists, really. My wife and I were in New England recently to see the eclipse and I don't recall hearing it, but maybe we just didn't talk to the right people. --Trovatore (talk) 20:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Trovatore now added. The reference that I found says "chiefly heard in Maine" (not mainly in Maine). Alansplodge (talk) 10:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

green fringe

If you look at this pic in full size, you'll see a green fringe to the right edge of the Moon. What made that? Delay between a green-filtered scan and others? —Tamfang (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The EPIC instrument is described as using a filter wheel [24]. That means it captures one channel in one exposure, rotates the wheel, captures the second channel in a second exposure, and so on. You can see a similar pink-purple fringe on the left edge of the Moon, and if you look carefully, a very faint version around the dark craters and other features on the lunar surface. —Amble (talk) 19:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Kona low

I've been through many different Kona lows, and one thing I've noticed just by way of keeping an eye on modeling and reporting is that they appear more chaotic and difficult to predict. Is this true? If so, why? Viriditas (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

More than other types of lows, or more recently than in the past? [I won't be able to answer either way, but the question isn't fully clear to me.] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 19:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't say with any certainty. My question is, is there something about the Kona low that makes it more difficult to predict at a microclimate level? I've noticed that whenever we get a Kona low, all the forecasting goes out the window. Is this expected or unique to the phenomenon? In other words, are stochastic climate models of Kona low systems less accurate than other types of weather events? Viriditas (talk) 19:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I thought you were asking whether the coffee maker needed refilling with a particular variety of beans. Phew. MinorProphet (talk) 21:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

MinorProphet, I have always appreciated your sense of humor. Not everyone has that, so I thank you for it. Did you know Kona coffee is now more than US$50 a pound? That's nuts to me. Rumor is that it's getting very difficult to grow now with climate change, pathogens, insects, etc. I don't think it's all that different elsewhere, now that I think about. Single origin coffees from Mexico and South America are hovering around US$40 a pound. Viriditas (talk) 19:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a pont that climate scientists and activists should make a bigger point of. "Act now/Give now or prepare for the end of coffee." --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

They do! There’s been a lot of coverage on this point within the last two years. But, a lot of this is very late. I first got interested in this subject in the mid to late 1980s, just before Hansen gave his famous testimony to the Senate. It’s really sad to see how much the oil-controlled governments have dragged their feet on this. And now the same people are complaining that people aren’t having enough children? Our leaders don’t get it, and maybe never will. I am reminded of the famous Upton Sinclair quote (which I have deliberately altered for modernity): "It is difficult to get someone to understand something, when their salary depends on not understanding it." This seems to be true across the board in government. A good example is the official poverty measures used by the US government. It is based on archaic, out of date ideas from 1963 that have zero relevance to the actual world in 2024, and most surprisingly, does not account for what we in the modern world take for granted: "costs related to housing, clothing, transportation, and other expenses commonly considered basic human needs are not considered. And the official measure does not account for variations in the cost of living across the country." This is what insanity looks like. This means, essentially, that the US government has absolutely no idea who is actually living in poverty, and if that wasn't enough, does not want to know, as proposed congressional legislation that would improve these metrics has been fought by conservatives at every level. This is occurring now in the US, as "29% of Gen Z and 32% of millennials fear their financial situation could lead to experiencing homelessness". The government is doing nothing. The same thing is occurring with climate change and every other problem. We have a government that is blind and is being led by the blind and cannot do a single thing to help its people. In other news, just yesterday, a Florida Man signed HB 1645, a bill that bans offshore wind power and "removes most references to climate change in state law", in spite of the fact that 90% of Floridians accept climate change and 69% want the state to take action. This is what an oil-run oligarchy looks like. Viriditas (talk) 23:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about Kona lows specifically. Our article doesn't say much about size, but raises the impression that they're quite compact. I do know that weather phenomena get more difficult to predict when they're more compact. That's a consequence of the finite resolution of the computer model used for weather forecast and the finite resolution of input data. I suppose there aren't that many weather stations in the Pacific. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! We've had a Kona low here for a week or so now and things have been really weird. Hot one moment, cold the next, windy then calm, rain then suddenly dry, etc. Lots of property owners spent a lot of money to put sandbags out to prevent flooding, but there hasn't been any yet on my island. Viriditas (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Huh, that doesn't seem that odd to me. We have weeks like that all the time in NC. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Keep in mind, the Kona low event is not considered normal or usual. I am curious how many times it happens in the Hawaii region per year. If I had to guess, 2-4 times per year? I don’t know. Viriditas (talk) 21:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You mentioned stochastic forecasting (related to this?), which presumably involves basing forecasts of a weather event on the way previous instances developed. If a type of weather event is infrequent, there will inherently be less data on which to calculate a forecast than for more common events. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 11:07, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe weather in Hawaii is most of the time more predictable than in most places in the world. PiusImpavidus (talk) 07:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

May 15

Why is there an iron cross painted on top of this building?

https://imgur.com/a/Rg2DpRy

In the image posted above, there is an iron cross painted on the roof of an NYPD training facility. A friend of mine said she's seen one in aerial photographs of a Naval building in Florida as well. What's the purpose of the iron cross? I thought maybe something to do with helipads but it's not standard markings. Thank you! †dismas†|^(talk) 15:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a guess, but maybe a representation of the Police Combat Cross? Alansplodge (talk) 18:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

But it certainly is a helipad: NYPD Air Operations Heliport (Floyd Bennett Field) New York, New York, USA says "Runway edge markings: WHITE PAINTED MALTESE CROSS". Alansplodge (talk) 18:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not a Maltese Cross, it's a cross paty. That said, our article on the Maltese Cross does mention aviation uses. DuncanHill (talk) 18:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, Maltese Cross#Aviation says:

In 1967, laboratory tests, and flight tests at Fort Rucker and Fort Wolters, were conducted to determine the most highly visible and effective way to mark a helipad. Twenty-five emblem designs were tested, but the emblem depicting four blurred rotor blades, referred to as the "Maltese cross", was selected as the standard heliport marking pattern by the Army for military heliports, and by the FAA for civil heliports. However, in the late 1970s, the FAA administrator repealed this standard when it was charged that the Maltese cross was antisemitic. In the United States today, some helipads still remain bearing their original Maltese cross emblems.

I suspect that heraldry is not a skill required of helicopter pilots :-) Alansplodge (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The Iron Cross, which is often confused with the Maltese Cross, has been used by Nazi Germany. It has also been used before by the Weimar Republic and is used today by the Federal Republic of Germany. It is a bit strange to call the symbol antisemitic. The Nazis also used circles and the colour white.

The abolished helipad symbol did, moreover, not really have the shape of either the Maltese Cross or the Iron Cross. If they had faithfully represented the cross as the area swept out by four rotor blades in about one tenth of a full rotation, the four outer edges would not have been straight but like 36° circular arcs, making an association with Germany even less plausible.  --Lambiam 19:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, since meaning inheres in how a sign is used and understood, and nowhere else, if a significant number of people apprehend a word or symbol as racist, antisemitic, or just plain offensive, then that is (part of its meaning) whatever anybody may intend by it. Telling people that it does not mean that is not only useless, but false. See pejoration ColinFine (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Meaning is not absolute. It also depends on context. In English, applying the term git to a person is an insult. In Poland, someone so designated may feel honoured. When a swastika on a Hindu temple is understood by a tourist as being antisemitic, it is a misunderstanding. It is neither false, nor necessarily useless, to point this out.  --Lambiam 07:39, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

In American English, "git" as an insult is unknown (other than in the Monty Python "argument sketch") but instead is a hickish pronunciation of "get [out of here]" (as in "go on, git!") ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The only more disturbing news I got from the U.S. after those helipad pictures came after the end of the seventies [25], that was the Glock, not a mention of git. --Askedonty (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all!! I'd done numerous searches for helipad markings but didn't find that the Maltese Cross used to be used for them. Thanks again! †dismas†|^(talk) 20:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That airport's dated as fuck. Built to woo 1931 airlines from Newark but never did (too far from Manhattan), every few years or decades would get more irrelevant (every time a bigger NYC airport opened or aviation user left, most of it's been owned by National Park Service for 50 years, you can camp and fly model planes on the runway). The main cop thing's probably been Rodman's Neck for decades (a peninsula in a different side of the city). Tons of cop stuff there (i.e. buildings to practice SWATting probably also firefighting, shooting ranges, bomb squad practice tip, probably the only gun shop(s) in NYC...) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

May 18

low gi cereal foods

in this section what do they mean by "low gi cereal foods"?

Healthy diet#Research 58.161.160.223 (talk) 13:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

See glycemic index, the effect of a particular food on blood sugar levels two hours after consuming it, oats would be an example of a low gi cereal. Mikenorton (talk) 14:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Because consumption of a lot of high gi foods tend to result in reactive hypoglycemia or "sugar crash". Alansplodge (talk) 22:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

May 20

usefulness of complex-input FFTs in audio spectral analysis

Since I've implemented a feature to treat stereo audio as complex numbers in one of my own audio spectrum analyzer projects over CodePen, I'm curious about whether or not is there any useful cases of complex-input FFTs as in the case of I/Q signals on any SDR-related stuff, being performed in typical two-channel audio? BTW, I'm not talking about the performance benefits of using one complex-input FFT to visualize two spectrums for each channel, which is the same, plus the "unscrambling" operation to make it look like individual FFTs of each channels. 2001:448A:3070:DF54:98E8:4EDF:605:8379 (talk) 00:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The Discrete Fourier transform (DFT) that converts a sequence of data samples to a set of complex coefficients of frequencies is directly applicable for spectral analysis. The frequency domain representation of the input sequence allows many useful signal processes, including frequency-selective filters, and the filtered frequency coefficients can be converted back to real data by means of an Inverse DFT.

Mathematically a DFT converts a sequence of N complex numbers $\left\{\mathbf {x} _{n}\right\}:=x_{0},x_{1},\ldots ,x_{N-1}$ into another sequence of complex numbers, $\left\{\mathbf {X} _{k}\right\}:=X_{0},X_{1},\ldots ,X_{N-1},$ which is defined by:

Discrete Fourier transform

$X_{k}=\sum _{n=0}^{N-1}x_{n}\cdot e^{-i2\pi {\tfrac {k}{N}}n}$ ()

The operation is computationally intensive as N must be large enough for a required frequency resolution but it can be speeded by the digital FFT (Fast Fourier transform) algorithm. A further simplification is that for a real signal such as audio from one microphone, only real values of $\{\mathbf {x} _{n}\}$ need be processed i.e. the imaginary value of each sample can be zero. Such real-data-in, complex-values-out usage of FFTs is commonplace. However it is useful to note that the zeroed imaginary data points potentially offer themselves as a second, independant data stream. The OP cites a .pdf that correctly demonstrates that two stereo audio signals can be combined as real and complex inputs to a single FFT. That one FFT can process two signals without interference is demonstrable by recovering the signal samples in an IDFT thus:

Inverse transform

$x_{n}={\frac {1}{N}}\sum _{k=0}^{N-1}X_{k}\cdot e^{i2\pi {\tfrac {k}{N}}n}$ ()

While the economy of using a single FFT to process both stereo channels is obvious it is less obvious that any two real input data streams may be applied as there really is no interference between them. Noting that the algorithms for forward and inverse DFTs are similar, a system programmer will usually write code that is reusable for both and has provision for complex input data, even if that is superfluous for the DFT, because it is always demanded for IDFT. Apart from audio applications, an IDFT/DFT pair is useful as digital Codec in digital carrier Phase-shift keying modulations BPSK (real values) and QPSK (complex values). Philvoids (talk) 19:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Philvoids Thanks for a lengthy explanation but what I meant by "complex-input FFTs" as in this CodePen project is simply treating stereo pairs or even Mid/Side representations as complex numbers and do no postprocessing at all and simply display two graphs with different colors; the first one is as usual as regular FFT spectrum, and the second graph is exactly the same but the ordering of FFT bins is reversed since we provided an FFT a complex-valued input, the output is no longer conjugate-symmetric, which could display stereo FFT in a different way (one graph is higher in amplitude than other means being closer to 90° out-of-phase, either clockwise or counterclockwise) and might have practical uses or is it? 114.5.253.252 (talk) 18:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

While agreeing that a single FFT can treat samples of a stereo pair as complex numbers, I have not found more useful references than those already given for your on-going project; it feels more like a "solution looking for a problem" than a "problem looking for a solution"! We also cannot speculate or know whether your interest is theoretical curiosity or you have an application or product plan. Philvoids (talk) 03:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Philvoids and this DSP related thread about the same topic in regards of treating stereo sample as complex numbers, I'm just curious why people bringing up some performance improvements of stereo FFT by treating an input as complex numbers for a single FFT and doing "unscrambling" operation afterwards instead of other niche stuffs using same FFT as for I/Q radio signals but for audio? Sure, it could identify TSAC-encoded music with the same complex-input FFTs as for I/Q signals as "holes" in one (red) graph at higher frequencies (around 15kHz) as in this image on this HA thread about the same topic. 114.5.249.110 (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Calendar change and historical procrastination

Initially, only a few countries already switched to the Gregorian calendar in 1582. But then, as the centuries go by, more and more countries followed the calendar change, including Great Britain in 1752. This continued all the way until the year 1923 in Greece.

So, could such a long waiting be considered as a kind of procrastination? Procrastination means putting off tasks to a later date, and the task relevant to this question is that of switching to the Gregorian calendar. One of the negative consequences is that the longer you waited, the more days you had to drop from the Julian calendar. Changes in the 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s required 10, 10, 11, 12, and 13 days to be dropped, respectively (note that 1600 was a leap year in both calendars, so no additional day needs to be dropped until 1700).

GTrang (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It could depend on each country's rationale for resisting. One possibility could be anti-Catholic bias. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, the head honchos of the Eastern Orthodox Churches felt that adopting this calendar proclaimed by a papal bull would be seen as admitting the supreme authority of the head honcho of the Roman Church.  --Lambiam 19:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

We must be patient. An agreement on the term honcho picked up 1947-1953 by U.S. servicemen from Japanese hancho "group leader" has still not been reached in catholic churches since the East–West Schism of 1054. Philvoids (talk) 21:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a little off-topic, but does anyone understand why they didn't just say, OK, we're changing the schedule of leap years going forward, but we're not dropping any days from the current calendar? It's weird to me that they preferred to set the correlation between seasons and the calendar to something it hadn't been in living memory. I could maybe understand if it were a date-of-Easter thing, but Easter has never gone by the solar calendar anyway, so that also doesn't make sense. --Trovatore (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

325AD was important, Christmas (second most important after Easter) is solar and Easter falling up to 7+30 or 7+29 days later than the Sunday after the first spring Full Moon and up to ~10 days later in spring than could in 325 made them feel icky. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

On a smaller scale, we have the 19-second difference between GPS time and International Atomic Time, and the running difference between those and Coordinated Universal Time, occasioned by one of the worst ideas in the history of human timekeeping. When they finally get rid of the stupid thing and treat the pose of the Earth as just another ephemeris, like they should have done for at least fifty years, it will be interesting to see whether they attempt some unification, or just have three separate clocks with a fixed difference of a few seconds. --Trovatore (talk) 19:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

That would be a sin and make astronomers and some sailors feel icky. Astronomers deal with way more than three clocks per location and the 70 second difference from the endlessly slowing spin crossing 24 SI hours in like 1820 all the time, suck it up programmers. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

It's the astronomers who need to suck it up and treat the Earth's pose as just another ephemeris. --Trovatore (talk) 00:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The astronomers have to do that anyway, because leap seconds only get you to the nearest second or so, and that is often not good enough. The UT1-UTC ephemeris can be predicted pretty well into the future, except for leap seconds. Leap seconds throw it off completely because they are a political decision and cannot be reliably predicted beforehand. They also introduce a discontinuity so that you have to be careful when interpolating. [26] So getting rid of leap seconds would probably make it easier for the astronomers. (It might still be true that it would also make them feel icky.) —Amble (talk) 02:46, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

According to the linked article, the current plan after leap seconds are ended by 2035 is either for a leap minute or leap hour in the future, so I'm not sure it makes sense to unify them when they're going to drift again in the future. I mean it would be slightly cleaner since whatever they chose future changes would be in that whole number and so the difference would always be in that number of units. OTOH, it doesn't seem like that number is that significant for most purposes, so I wonder if they will care. Also I wonder if the more likely plan if it's decided to keep the difference in whole units, might be for the first "leap minute" or "leap hour" to actually be slightly less or more than an actual minute or hour and use that to hit on a whole number of unit. Note that there's some suggestion that a negative leap second may be coming perhaps before 2035 and so that may need to be dealt with either by eliminating leap seconds sooner, or simply skipping it even if it's technically required under the current system; rather than risk finding out what software bugs may exist for something which won't be needed for much longer [27] (although assuming the leap minute or leap hour ideas go ahead, it's theoretically possible they would need it). Nil Einne (talk) 11:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

BTW, do astronomers really have much to do with it? While not well discussed, from what is discussed and common sense I think the bigger issue may be the desire of some countries for UTC to be fairly tied to TAI but also have 1200 in their local time zone (which is tied to UTC) be roughly midday (depending on their local timezones) rather then for it to potentially be midnight sometime in the distance future. (Well that's a fairly distant thing, but it sounds like some are even unhappy with it diverging by even an hour.) The counter argument that there is already so much variance given the spread of timezones etc seems to have won out for the leap minute or maybe even the leap hour. But as this time, I think they're still unhappy with the eventual possibility it could indeed be midnight during 1200 in the future. Nil Einne (talk) 11:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Any large discrepancies would be way in the future, and barring enormous advances in life extension, are not going to affect us. Anyone they will affect would be born in a world in which it's not that different, so they'll have plenty of time to get used to it.

Without leap seconds, a person who lives 120 years will see nominal average sunset times shift by, what, 90 seconds or something? Come on, there's no way this is seriously a problem. Leap seconds are just a really really bad idea, and hopefully they'll expunge them with all deliberate speed. --Trovatore (talk) 18:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Anyone so irritated by leap seconds needs to use GPS time or an International Standard Computing Time that equals UTC at the conference creating the standard or maybe TAI. If done soon that would give many, many months to reprogram before the next leap second (Earth's recently been spinning close to the UTC accumulation and unusually close to the SI rate based on human knowledge right before the slowdown was first measured which was based on 18th and 19th century position measurements). Computers already convert UTC to time zone, just use atomic time and leave UTC alone. Also we have to make time impure for all time cause idiots didn't change Unix time to the actual number of SI seconds by the 1990s when computer clocks became accurate enough or 2001 when they made 2100 a leap year? Leap seconds are perfect! Pure unsmeared SI seconds except 1 second every few years on average (6 months happened once) and it can't more than 0.9 seconds wrong. Also you do know it's quadratic right? People shouldn't be boiled to wrongness they wouldn't accept all at once in the same lifetime like the leap hour in 2600 (fucking night owls' sleep by making 8am earlier in the day till it happens. New York Cityans who could wake up 11.5+ hours after sunset and 0.5+ hours after sunrise without risking lateness would have to wake up ≤11 hours after sunset and (c. Jan 4 and Nov 5-6 DST) at sunrise or before like a weirdo morning person). If I didn't grow up in it I'd think daylight savings is an abomination instead of mixed feelings more pro than con (DST also fucks sleep but I never knew anything else). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Time is time; the Earth moves somewhat irregularly with time. There is no reason our timekeeping needs to follow the Earth's foibles.

Just freeze the current difference between UTC and TAI now and forever, and then we can keep using UTC. Sure, our great-to-the-nth grandchildren may be getting up at 3 AM or 3 PM or whatever, and they'll think the name "midnight" is kinda weird and that time references in old literature don't make a lot of sense, until someone remembers that it's drifted since then. Of course human schedules will adjust to move with the Sun, not with the clocks.

So what? It's a little like the scene in It's a Wonderful Life where George Bailey is offered the amazing salary of $25,000 per year, beyond dreams of avarice, and is briefly tempted. You can watch that and understand it; even if you don't know just how much that would buy you, you understand it's a lot. --Trovatore (talk) 22:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

9 to 5 has never been 10 to 6 or 11 to 7 in double war time, it'd reach insanely discriminatory levels before it'd be 10 to 6! Schools discriminate against teens, industry lobbyists discriminate against night owls (the theater, nightlife etc lobbies are collectively weaker than the golf, bike etc lobbies). We expanded DST as much as we could (Nov 6 very competitive with latest post-Nov day in sunrise lateness at 40N near the meridian), we're used to it, it delays ugly June dawn, there's no room for more. Enough circadian rhythm bigotry. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Delays the June dawn? Nonsense. The dawn is when it was always going to be. We're just putting a different number to it. You don't have to let that number control when you do things; it's just a number, not a cop.

Now, granted, sometimes you have constraints based on when other people want to do things. But again, there's no need for them to schedule them according to any particular time coordinate. If you don't like when they want to do it, well, push back!

I'm reminded of when I had a summer job working for IBM in Tucson. We had some flexibility in our hours, but the people I was riding with wanted to do the 7:00 AM to 3:42 PM schedule (IYKYK on the 42 minutes). Insane, right?

Not so much. Arizona doesn't observe DST, so that's 7:00 AM Mountain Standard Time, which would be 8 if they observed DST. Also, Tucson is further east in its time zone than Los Angeles, so you can think of it as 8:30.oops, got that bit wrong. Still early for my taste, but not totally unreasonable.

Similarly, the Spanish famously do everything late. But do they? Madrid is west of London, but shares a time zone with Vienna. By the Sun, they're...still pretty late, but not quite as much as you might think.

The point is that human schedules are a self-organizing system, not under central control, and respond to what you might call "market forces", which in the long run will optimize them to the position of the Sun, not to a number on the clock. --Trovatore (talk) 06:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes you don't have to be an astronomer or sextant user to have a desire for SI seconds with an extra second announced in advance to keep it approximately the closest second, it's unsurprising if pro-leap second astronomers and sextant users outnumbered by other pro-leap second humans through sheer numbers. Midnight at 1200 is insane, that's 12 hours wrong even Anchorage doesn't use California time for convenience (2 hours wrong) and they're used to it never getting dark then just a few hours of day. If the south horizon's high enough the city doesn't touch sunlight for weeks and the north horizon's only lit a few hours. Leap minutes would be an unneeded complication increasing the number of things that can't use civil time without extra work fixing it back to mean solar time of the multiple of 15 longitude. For instance Earth spins 11.7 longitude seconds in 0.78 time seconds (eyeballing the most it's been wrong so far on a graph, though they stopped jumping the gun so much over time so it doesn't get that bad anymore, probably they could not pad it at all without risk of it speeding from a 6 month forescast of c. 0.5 seconds to over their 0.9 second mandate in only 6 months). It would hardly affect sextant accuracy to use British Standard Time or Iceland Time (they're UTC all year), if it was leap minute even if it switched at 30 instead of 60 that'd be 7.5 minutes wrong (up to almost 9 land miles/14km). That's as inaccurate enough to put a very low island beyond the horizon from up to tens of yards up, several times the horizon distance of standing on a perfectly flat Earth and not even close to a passing score for sextants, eagle-eyed Tycho Brahe did 14 times better in the 1500s with just a 1.6 meter wood and his eyeballs. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The non-computerized sextant user already has to carry charts based on the date and latitude and such, right? Let him keep one more table, which is the number of seconds to add or subtract in a given year. It doesn't change that much so he can probably just remember one extra number and it'll be good for some time. Problem solved. --Trovatore (talk) 19:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Stop using UTC for computers. Problem solved. Or maybe leap seconds could be abolished and the second could be changed once it's crossed 0.6 seconds, to the value estimated to keep it less than 0.6 seconds wrong the longest. Would that be that bad? The scientists who need to specify this second is 86,400.002/86,400.000ths the early 2020s second probably have complex work already. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

And pre-electric navigating tools will survive solar and military electromagnetic pulses that would melt all metal too many kilometers long and probably fuck all navigation that needs electricity. They'd survive an anti-satellite or computer virus war. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

If you want to avoid leap seconds, but keep the local time in sync with the sun, you can just periodically shift all the time zone boundaries. Instead of a leap second, you’d shift the boundaries by 15 arc-seconds of longitude, which is about 300 m at the equator. You can call them leap-meters. I suspect this idea will not catch on. —Amble (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

That would decouple time zones from longitudes that are multiples of 15 and no one would want to move the line till most of a metro area or at least rural county has passed through it. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The biggest headache from leap seconds is that they are incorporated into things like Unix time / posix time that really ought to be a continuous count, or at least monotonic. At a leap second, the same timestamp gets replayed and no longer corresponds to a unique moment in time. Whatever we end up doing with leap seconds, leap minutes, and leap hours, all of the not-quite-continuous-count time coordinates need to be banished ASAP. Then you’d only need to worry about leap seconds when converting a single, continuous time coordinate into a formatted local time. —Amble (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Stop using UTC for things where monotonicity is important and leave UTC as it is. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Sweden maximized the inconvenience by procrastinating several times in different directions: Swedish calendar. First they decided that the big jump was too much to do all at once, so not to switch all at once, so they spread it out over the course of several decades, by simply skipping leap years. Then they got distracted and forgot to forget some of the leap years. Then they decided the whole thing was a lot of trouble, and switched back to the Julian calendar by observing a double-leap-year, which had a February 30. Not too many decades after that, Sweden finally switched to the Gregorian calendar in the usual way, by skipping a block of days all at once. Some of these decisions have got to be worse decisions than leap seconds... —Amble (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I did say "one of the worst". --Trovatore (talk) 20:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s fair! In the history of timekeeping there have been enough questionable decisions that it would be difficult to pick just one. —Amble (talk) 00:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The advantage of stopped clocks is that they are right twice a day in all systems of timekeeping.  --Lambiam 08:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I feel like you're missing a pretty obvious counterexample. --Trovatore (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

A clock running backward is even better! —Tamfang (talk) 22:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I wonder why no state did it by dropping each 31 for a couple of years. —Tamfang (talk) 22:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

That would have put them into an analogous situation that Sweden faced. In those intervening years they would have been out of synch with both the Julian and the Gregorian, and thus out of synch with every country in the world that uses any version of the Western calendar. Hopeless confusion would have ensued. Referring to those dates in later years would have required a tripartite code: Old Style, New Style, and Our Special Temporary Style. Life's too short for that sort of shit. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Internet Archive

When archiving web pages with an option to switch between metric and imperial units, in many times the imperial units come to the archived version. Why does this happen? It may occur when the menus have imperial option in just one place. Which is the reason for that? --40bus (talk) 19:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The archiving service loads the page from the web, not from your browser. It does not know what cookies you have set.  --Lambiam 08:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

May 21

Any free versions of these issues online?

I'm not posting on WP:RX because I don't need the articles, as I already have the material. I'm trying to link to the pages for use in an article on a footnote.

• The Saturday Evening Post. 212 (42): 115. April 13, 1940.
• Woman's Home Companion. p. 59. November 1940.
• Vogue. p. 58. February 1, 1941.

Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 23:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: for Vogue: [28] requires a login to view the issue but it looks like there is no cost to create account RudolfRed (talk) 02:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Good news! Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

May 22

Measurement units

Are there any recent books with not just contemporary human-scale units but many others all with conversions all listed in size order in sections named mass, acceleration, inverse length (several units like diopter are inverse length) etc (no wasting space blabbing for half the book instead of more kinds of units i.e. Meccan wine gallons and magnetic fluencivity). Maybe it could show multiple conversions per unit but one conversion per unit to either SI or one of the less obscure non-SI units would be sufficient. It'd be nice if the conversions had ~8-24 digits if unavoidable (some unit to different measurement system conversations could get an exact symbol with only a fqew digits (some without fractions or repeating decimal overlines like survey inch=(1/39.37) meters)). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I imagine such a book would struggle to find a publisher in the age of the internet. I did look through all the online unit converters on the first page of a DuckDuckGo search, and none of them cited any sources for their conversions, although several seemed very robust.

I'm not sure how interested you are in premodern units (I'm unfamiliar with Meccan wine gallons and magnetic fluencivity), but if you're looking at premodern units you should keep in mind that how we think of them in the present is usually an approximation of what their original value was, even if the value was rigorously defined at some point instead of a "just about". The recent book Eratosthenes and the Measurement of the Earth's Circumference (c.230 BCE) (Matthew, 2023) devotes an entire chapter to figuring out the size of the unit used in the ancient experiment. Meanwhile I've at least twice had cause to cite Loewe, Michael (1961). "The Measurement of Grain during the Han Period". T'oung Pao. Second Series. 49 (1/2): 64–95. doi:10.1163/156853262X00020. JSTOR 4527501. That article goes into significant depth about the changing value of different measurements of volume and where the historical sources allow us to estimate the measurements against each other and against modern units. Sometimes we get lucky and there's an extant prototype that allows us to measure premodern units exactly, but much of the time it takes research by subject matter experts laying out careful arguments blabbing half the book to arrive at a good estimate, and 8–24 digits is going to end up in the territory of false precision.

Anyway it's likely that if you cite two online unit converters in your calculations no one will challenge the results. Folly Mox (talk) 08:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The subject of reference is Metrology that Wikipedia divides into sections each of which wastes space blabbing gives encyclopedia-worthy information, not least the essential historical evolution of units that overshadows any anachronistic conversion between ancient and modern units. The Metre is an example of a unit that has been redefined several times since it began in 1791 as Earth's circumference/40,000. Philvoids (talk) 12:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has articles for many units with conversion to metric and American, unit systems like SI or Ancient Egyptian with conversions to metric American and other units of the system the article's about, categories of units of the same type like area units, articles on quantities like area with less obscure units noted along with some cross-system conversions like hectare to or from acre. But not really like that book I saw. It probably didn't have every possible conversion factor but that means room for more units and you could derive any unit pair conversion factor from what's on the page anyway. I'm sure there's a massive multi-volume book covering all of metrology (including detailed care instructions for the one true kilogram and extremely dry statistical error propagationolgy) which I could use to find all the info in that book I saw (maybe requiring me to read the entire book and perform data entry just to get a table of every mentioned length unit and its size in SI ranked by size) but a book like that book I saw could be hundreds of US$ cheaper. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Right in some cases it might be less digits to avoid false precision, a range, ±, ~, c., a value written like 1.26(12), listed as Homeric stadion, Ptolemaic stadion etc or something like that. I don't know if Mecca ever had wine gallon(s) or barrel(s) (Britain had many obsolete local gallons and barrels). I don't know if magnetic fluencivity is real, there's so many jargony science quantities like fluence, abasement or absition (displacement times time), specific volume, jerk (physics) (acceleration squared), impulse (physics), specific impulse (not impulse), permittivity, permissivity, reactance, inductance, capacitance, acoustic resistance, acoustic impedance, electrical impedance, radiation resistance, magnetic flux, magnetic field strength, magnetic susceptibility and magnetic coercivity. I saw one such book long before the SI redefinition and remember international inch 25.4e or similar, U.S. survey inch maybe 9 significant digits/25.4000508 I stopped caring after 0005 to 000508 (my calculator could only fit 00051) so don't remember (1m/39.37 exactly but very or impossibly inconvenient to express exactly in the form cm per inch). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Anyone remember the name of the most recent such book? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Annual personal organizer diaries are usually padded with extra reference information such as maps and some common unit conversions such as degrees Celsius <-> Fahrenheit, metric <-> imperial units, etc. The most recent that will be for year 2025 are probably being printed now. Philvoids (talk) 17:49, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Did the position "Senior Secretary of Cadres for CPSU" Existed

Hello, I'm researching historical positions within the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) because Andrei Kirilenko (politician) page, he held a post called "Senior Secretary of Cadres." However, I haven't been able to find much information about it. Did this position officially exist within the CPSU, and if so, what were its responsibilities? Any guidance or references would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! SleepyJoe42 (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The article on Kirilenko on the Russian Wikipedia mentions many secretarial position in which he served, including serving on the Secretariat of the Central Committee of the CPSU, but nothing resembling this specific designation. The Secretariat oversaw the day-to-day operations of the Party, and specific areas of work were assigned to its members, such as agriculture, but I suspect this was not reflected in a title. Moreover, according to the Russian article on Kirilenko, he oversaw industry, capital construction, transport and communications. The article Секретариат ЦК КПСС states that Kirilenko served as co-Second Secretary next to Mikhail Andreyevich Suslov.  --Lambiam 21:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

non-white acting like white

So far, apples means Indigenous peoples acting like white, coconuts means South Asian people acting like white, Oreo cookies means Black people like white and bananas means East and Southeast Asian acting like white, but is there a term for Middle Eastern people, Arabs, Iranians, Afghanis, Central Asians and Turkish peoples and others acting like white people? Donmust90 Donmust90 (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There does not seem to be a specific term for MENA individuals acting or identifying as white. 136.54.106.120 (talk) 23:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Racially speaking, Arabs, Iranians, Afghanis, Central Asians and Turkish are all Caucasians. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Some Central Asians look far more similar to Japanese than Caucasus. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Nonetheless, I'm trying to figure out what an Arab "acting like white" would look like. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

They are? What do Arabs have to do with the Caucasus mountains? Zanahary (talk) 06:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

See Caucasian race, specifically the sentence in the lede that says "In the United States, the root term Caucasian is still in use as a synonym for white or of European, Middle Eastern, or North African ancestry, a usage that has been criticized." I'm sure you're aware of this usage and are just pretending that it doesn't exist. Whether you like it or not, it's still a valid usage. --Viennese Waltz 07:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure you're aware of this usage and are just pretending that it doesn't exist
Girl Zanahary (talk) 10:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

In my travels, I have heard: Oreos for blacks in the U.S. and Bounty bar for blacks in the U.K., Coconuts for Hawaiians, Bananas for Chinese and Japanese, and apple for Native Americans. Googling, I see that coconut is used in Central/South America, many of the Pacific Islands, and Indonesia. There is no reason to assume it wouldn't be used in India as well as India is (I believe) the largest producers of coconuts. I want to make sure it is obvious that all of these terms are offensive. Just because some people say them does not mean that any person should use them, even if it seems funny. I used to think it was OK. I do not get offended. So, I was called a lot of names from silly ones like "round-eye" in China to "oyinbo" in Nigeria. But, I was told that because I laughed, it made the person who said those terms comfortable with saying them to other people who could be offended. So, instead of laughing along, I began asking others to be more polite. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 15:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you even know what "Oreo" indicates? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

They wrote in the question what it means (Black people acting like white), so why ask?  --Lambiam 07:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I was talking to the IP, not to the OP. Oreo in plain language means "black on the outside, white on the inside", which is a harsh assessment, not intended to be funny. Which leads me to question whether the IP really understands the concept. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

(1) You didn't indent, so you appeared to be addressing the OP, not the IP. C'mon, you've been here for 20 years, you know how the indentation convention works.

(2) The IP geolocates to South Carolina, so (assuming no VPN), probably does know what "Oreo" indicates. Hell, I know and I live on a different continent. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.173 (talk) 22:12, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I failed to count correctly, but my indentions were well-intentioned. As for SC, considering who they keep voting for, I wouldn't make any assumptions about their intelligence level. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)