User talk:KDRGibby

THE COMMUNIST PAGE AS IT SHOULD READ!

Editors of the communism page believe the bolded section should be removed for the following reasons

• POV
• Already covered in another page
• Does not fit with communism

I responded by

• editing to remove any percieved POV (They did not, they somehow believe deleting constitutes editing)
• reminding them that Maosim, Lenninsm, the Soviet Union are not only covered in other pages, but have THEIR OWN PAGES
• reminded them that Maoism, Lenninsm, the soviet union, and more, dont actually fit with the origins of communism either.

Furthermore, I added to the disclosure to reflect what the page really means, an evolution of the usage of communism rather than the original ideology (as they claim it to be but dont actually present it!!!!) I also put up tags, which have been removed with no discusion.

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{{cleanup}} {{npov}} {{disputed}}

:This article is about communism as a form of society and as a political movement, as it has evolved in its usage. For issues regarding Communist organizations, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding Communist Party-run states, see Communist state.

Communism refers to a theoretical system of social organization and a political movement based on common ownership of the means of production. As a political movement, communism seeks to establish a classless society. A major force in world politics since the early 20th century, modern communism is generally associated with The Communist Manifesto of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, according to which the capitalist profit-based system of private ownership is replaced by a communist society in which the means of production are communally owned, such as through a gift economy. Often this process is said initiated by the revolutionary overthrow of the bourgeoisie (see Marxism), passes through a transitional period marked by the preparatory stage of socialism (see Leninism). Pure communism has never been implemented, it remains theoretical: communism is, in Marxist theory, the end-state, or the result of state-socialism. The word is now mainly understood to refer to the political, economic, and social theory of Marxist thinkers, or life under conditions of Communist party rule.

In the late 19th century, Marxist theories motivated socialist parties across Europe, although their policies later developed along the lines of "reforming" capitalism, rather than overthrowing it. The exception was the Russian Social Democratic Workers' Party. One branch of this party, commonly known as the Bolsheviks and headed by Vladimir Lenin, succeeded in taking control of the country after the toppling of the Provisional Government in the Russian Revolution of 1917. In 1918, this party changed its name to the Communist Party; thus establishing the contemporary distinction between communism and socialism.

After the success of the October Revolution in Russia, many socialist parties in other countries became communist parties, owing allegiance of varying degrees to the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (see Communist International). After World War II, regimes calling themselves communist took power in Eastern Europe. In 1949 the Communists in China, led by Mao Zedong, came to power and established the People's Republic of China. Among the other countries in the Third World that adopted a Communist form of government at some point were Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Angola, and Mozambique. By the early 1980s, almost one-third of the world's population lived under Communist states.

Communism never became a popular ideology in the United States, either before or after the establishment of the Communist Party USA in 1919. Since the early 1970s, the term "Eurocommunism" was used to refer to the policies of Communist Parties in Western Europe, which sought to break with the tradition of uncritical and unconditional support of the Soviet Union. Such parties were politically active and electorally significant in France and Italy. With the collapse of the Communist governments in Eastern Europe from the late 1980s and the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, Communism's influence has decreased dramatically in Europe, but around a quarter of the world's population still lives under Communist Party rule.

Marxism

Main article: Marxism

Like other socialists, Marx and Engels sought an end to capitalism and the exploitation of workers. But whereas earlier socialists often favored longer-term social reform, Marx and Engels believed that popular revolution was all but inevitable, and the only path to socialism.

According to the Marxist argument for communism, the main characteristic of human life in class society is alienation; and communism is desirable because it entails the full realization of human freedom. Marx here follows G.W.F. Hegel in conceiving freedom not merely as an absence of constraints but as action having moral content. Not only does communism allow people to do what they want but it puts humans in such conditions and such relations with one another that they would not wish to have need for exploitation. Whereas for Hegel, the unfolding of this ethnical life in history is mainly driven by the realm of ideas, for Marx, communism emerged from material, especially the development of the means of production.

Marxism holds that a process of class conflict and revolutionary struggle will result in victory for the proletariat and the establishment of a communist society in which private ownership is abolished over time and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community. Marx himself wrote little about life under communism, giving only the most general indication as to what constituted a communist society. It is clear that it entails abundance in which there is little limit to the projects that humans may undertake. In the popular slogan that was adopted by the communist movement, communism was a world in which 'each gave according to his abilities, and received according to his needs.' The German Ideology (1845) was one of Marx's few writings to elaborate on the communist future:

In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic. [1]

Marx's lasting vision was to add this vision to a positive scientific theory of how society was moving in a law-governed way toward communism, and, with some tension, a political theory that explained why revolutionary activity was required to bring it about.

Some of Marx's contemporaries, such as Mikhail Bakunin, espoused similar ideas, but differed in their views of how to reach to a harmonic society with no classes. To this day there has been a split in the workers movement between Marxists (communists) and anarchists. The anarchists are against, and wish to abolish, every state organisation. Among them, anarchist-communists such as Peter Kropotkin believed in an immediate transition to one society with no classes, while anarcho-syndicalists believe that labor unions, as opposed to Communist parties, are the organizations that can help usher this society.

The growth of modern Communism

Soviet Marxism

Main article: Marxism-Leninism

In Russia, the modern world's first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale, following the 1917 October Revolution, led by Lenin's Bolsheviks, raised significant theoretical and practical debates on communism among Marxists themselves. Marx's theory had presumed that revolutions would occur where capitalist development was the most advanced and where a large working class was already in place. Russia, however, was the poorest country in Europe, with an enormous, illiterate peasantry and little industry. Under these circumstances, it was necessary for the communists, according to Marxian theory, to create a working class itself. Nevertheless, some socialists believed that a Russian revolution could be the precursor of workers' revolutions in the west.

For this reason, the socialist Mensheviks had opposed Lenin's communist Bolsheviks in their demand for socialist revolution before capitalism had been established. In seizing power, the Bolsheviks found themselves without a program beyond their pragmatic and politically successful slogans "peace, bread, and land," which had tapped the massive public desire for an end to Russian involvement in the First World War and the peasants' demand for land reform.

The usage of the terms "communism" and "socialism" shifted after 1917, when the Bolsheviks changed their name to the Communist Party and installed a single-party regime devoted to the implementation of socialist policies. The revolutionary Bolsheviks broke completely with the non-revolutionary social democratic movement, withdrew from the Second International, and formed the Third International, or Comintern, in 1919. Henceforth, the term "Communism" was applied to the objective of the parties founded under the umbrella of the Comintern. Their program called for the uniting of workers of the world for revolution, which would be followed by the establishment of a dictatorship of the proletariat as well as the development of a socialist economy. Ultimately, their program held, there would develop a harmonious classless society, with the withering away of the state. In the early 1920s, the Soviet Communists formed the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or Soviet Union, from the former Russian Empire.

Following Lenin's democratic centralism, the Communist parties were organized on a hierarchical basis, with active cells of members as the broad base; they were made up only of elite cadres approved by higher members of the party as being reliable and completely subject to party discipline.

In 1918-1920, in the middle of the Russian Civil War, the new regime nationalized all productive property. When mutiny and peasant unrest resulted, Lenin declared the New Economic Policy (NEP). However, Joseph Stalin's personal fight for leadership spelled the end of the NEP, and he used his control over personnel to abandon the program.

The Soviet Union and other countries ruled by Communist Parties are often described as 'Communist states' with 'state socialist' economic bases. This usage indicates that they proclaim that they have realized part of the socialist program by abolishing private control of the means of production and establishing state control over the economy; however, they do not declare themselves truly communist, as they have not established communal ownership.

Stalinism

Main article: Stalinism

The Stalinist version of socialism, with some important modifications, shaped the Soviet Union and influenced Communist Parties worldwide. It was heralded as a possibility of building communism via a massive program of industrialization and collectivization. The rapid development of industry, and above all the victory of the Soviet Union in the Second World War, maintained that vision throughout the world, even around a decade following Stalin's death, when the party adopted a program in which it promised the establishment of communism within thirty years.

However, under Stalin's leadership, evidence emerged that dented faith in the possibility of achieving communism within the framework of the Soviet model. Stalin had created in the Soviet Union a repressive state that dominated every aspect of life. After Stalin's death, the Soviet Union's new leader, Nikita Khrushchev admitted the enormity of the repression that took place under Stalin. Later, growth declined, and rent-seeking and corruption by state officials increased, which dented the legitimacy of the Soviet system.

Despite the activity of the Comintern, the Soviet Communist Party adopted the Stalinist theory of "socialism in one country" and claimed that, due to the "aggravation of class struggle under socialism," it was possible, even necessary, to build socialism in one country alone. This departure from Marxist internationalism was challenged by Leon Trotsky, whose theory of "permanent revolution" stressed the necessity of world revolution.

Trotskyism

Main article: Trotskyism

Trotsky and his supporters organized into the "Left Opposition," and their platform became known as Trotskyism. But Stalin eventually succeeded in gaining full control of the Soviet regime, and their attempts to remove Stalin from power resulted in Trotsky's exile from the Soviet Union in 1929. After Trotsky's exile, world communism fractured in two distinct branches: Stalinism and Trotskyism. Trotsky later founded the Fourth International, a Trotskyist rival to the Comintern, in 1938.

Though some follow Trotskyism today, Trotsky's theories were never reaccepted in Communist circles in the Soviet bloc, even after Stalin's death; and Trotsky's interpretation of communism has not been successful in leading a political revolution that would overthrow a state. However, Trotskyist ideas have occasionally found an echo among political movements in countries experiencing social upheavals (such is the case of Alan Woods' Trotskyist Committee for a Marxist International, which has had contact with President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela), most parties are active in politically stable, developed countries (such as Great Britain, France, Spain and Germany). It is noteworthy that Trotskyists groups that contribute with pro-capitalist parties have not escaped criticism as opportunists from other Trotskyists which are loathe to do so (see Trotskyism).

Cold War years

As the Soviet Union won important allies by victory in the Second World War in Eastern Europe, communism as a movement spread to a number of new countries, and gave rise to a few different branches of its own, such as Maoism.

Communism had been vastly strengthened by the winning of many new nations into the sphere of Soviet influence and strength in Eastern Europe. Governments modeled on Soviet Communism were formed in Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Poland, Hungary and Romania. A Communist government was also created under Marshal Tito in Yugoslavia, but Tito's independent policies led to the expulsion of Yugoslavia from the Cominform, which had replaced the Comintern, and Titoism, a new branch in the world communist movement, was labeled "deviationist."

By 1950 the Chinese Communists held all of China except Taiwan, thus controlling the most populous nation in the world. Other areas where rising Communist strength provoked dissension and in some cases actual fighting include Laos, many nations of the Middle East and Africa, and, especially, Vietnam (see Vietnam War). With varying degrees of success, Communists attempted to unite with nationalist and socialist forces against Western imperialism in these poor countries.

Maoism

Main article: Maoism

After the death of Stalin in 1953, the Soviet Union's new leader, Nikita Khrushchev, denounced Stalin's crimes and his cult of personality. He called for a return to the principles of Lenin, thus presaging some change in Communist methods. However, Khrushchev's reforms heightened ideological differences between China and the Soviet Union, which became increasingly apparent in the 1960s and 1970s. As the Sino-Soviet Split in the international Communist movement turned toward open hostility, Maoist China portrayed itself as a leader of the underdeveloped world against the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union, with Maoism gaining recognition worldwide as a new branch of Marxism.

Collapse of the Soviet Union and Communism today

In 1985, Mikhail Gorbachev became leader of the Soviet Union and relaxed central control, in accordance with reform policies of glasnost (openness) and perestroika (restructuring). The Soviet Union did not intervene as Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary all abandoned Communist rule by 1990. In 1991, the Soviet Union itself dissolved.

By the beginning of the 21st century, Communist parties hold power in China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam. President Vladimir Voronin of Moldova is a member of the Communist Party of Moldova, but the country is not run under one-party leadership. However, China has reassessed many aspects of the Maoist legacy; and China, Laos, Vietnam, and, to a lesser degree, Cuba have reduced state control of the economy in order to stimulate growth. Communist parties, or their descendent parties, remain politically important in many European countries and throughout the Third World, particularly in India.

Theories within Marxism as to why communism in Eastern Europe was not achieved after socialist revolutions pointed to such elements as the pressure of external capitalist states, the relative backwardness of the societies in which the revolutions occurred, and the emergence of a bureaucratic stratum or class that arrested or diverted the transition press in its own interests. Marxist critics of the Soviet Union referred to the Soviet system, along with other Communist states, as "state capitalism," arguing that Soviet system fell far short of Marx's communist ideal. They argued that the state and party bureaucratic elite acted as a surrogate capitalist class in the heavily centralized and repressive political apparatus.

Non-Marxists, in contrast, have often applied the term to any society ruled by a Communist Party and to any party aspiring to create a society similar to such existing nation-states. In the social sciences, societies ruled by Communist Parties are distinct for their single party control and their socialist economic bases. While anticommunists applied the concept of "totalitarianism" to these societies, many social scientists identified possibilities for independent political activity within them, and stressed their continued evolution up to the point of the dissolution of the Soviet Union and its allies in Eastern Europe during the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Today, Marxist revolutionaries are active in India, Nepal, and Colombia.

Market Reforms of Modern Communists

Contrary to communist theory proposed by Marx and Engles, and later adapted by Lenin, Stalin, Mao the People's Republic of China; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, the People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [2].

These Special Economic Zones have few restrictions upon businesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties, and a free price system. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.

According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." [3]

Several other communist led countries have also made pro market reforms in the last few decades including Vietnam and Russia; each to varying degress of aggression and sucess.

"Communism" or "communism"?

According to the 1996 third edition of Fowler's Modern English Usage, communism and derived words are written with the lowercase "c" except when they refer to a political party of that name, a member of that party, or a government led by such a party, in which case the word "Communist" is written with the uppercase "C".

Criticism of communism

Main article: Criticisms of communism.

A diverse array of writers and political activists have published anticommunist work, such as Soviet bloc dissidents Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and Vaclav Havel; economists Friedrich Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, and Milton Friedman; and historians and social scientists Hannah Arendt, Robert Conquest, Daniel Pipes and R. J. Rummel, to name a few. Some writers such as Conquest go beyond attributing large-scale human rights abuses to Communist regimes, presenting events occurring in these countries, particularly under Stalin, as an argument against the ideology of Communism itself.

It should be noted that these are criticisms of Communist parties and states they have ruled, rather than criticisms of communism as such. It should also be noted that many Communist parties outside of the Warsaw Pact (i.e. Communist parties in Western Europe, Asia, Latin America, and Africa) differed greatly, therefore no single criticism fits all.

See also

• Communist state
• Anti-communism
• Criticisms of communism
• Post-Communism

Schools of communism

• Anarchist communism
• Council communism
• De Leonism
• Eurocommunism
• Hoxhaism
• Juche
• Left communism
• Luxembourgism
• Marxism
• Marxism-Leninism
• Maoism
• Stalinism
• Trotskyism

Organizations and people

• Communist Party
• List of Communist parties
• List of Communists

Further reading

• Fernando Claudin, The Communist Movement: From Comintern to Cominform (1975)
• Pipes, Richard, "Communism", London, (2001), ISBN 0-297-64688-5

External links

Online resources for original Marxist literature

• Marxists Internet Archive
• Libertarian Communist Library
• Marxist.net
• Theses on Feuerbach
• Principles of Communism
• The Communist Manifesto
• The Civil War in France
• Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
• Reform or Revolution?
• What is to be Done?
• One Step Forward, Two Steps Back
• Two Tactics of Social-Democracy in the Democratic Revolution
• Materialism and Empirio-Criticism
• The Right of Nations to Self-Determination
• Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism
• The State and Revolution
• The Military Programme of the Proletarian Revolution
• The Tasks of the Proletariat In Our Revolution

ar:شيوعية bg:Комунизъм zh-min-nan:Kiōng-sán-chú-gī be:Камунізм ca:Comunisme cs:Komunismus da:Kommunisme de:Kommunismus et:Kommunism es:Comunismo eo:Komunismo fa:کمونیسم fr:Communisme ga:Cumannachas gl:Comunismo (política) ko:공산주의 id:Komunisme it:Comunismo he:קומוניזם lt:Komunizmas mk:Комунизам ms:Komunisme nl:Communisme nds:Kommunismus ja:共産主義 no:Kommunisme nn:Kommunisme pl:Komunizm pt:Comunismo ro:Comunism ru:Коммунизм simple:Communism sk:Komunizmus sl:Komunizem sr:Комунизам fi:Kommunismi sv:Kommunism vi:Chủ nghĩa Cộng sản tr:Komünizm uk:Комунізм zh:共产主义

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Great Depression & FairTax

Sorry I edited your FairTax submission but it was a little POV. I'm an advocate myself but I had to tweak it a bit. While I agree that the FairTax is progressive, it is a debated point and discussed a little further down the article. Read your Bio - Thought you might like these audio streams for your debate on the Great Depression. As I'm sure you know, FEE is an excellent resource for those that hold classic liberalism views and appreciate liberty. Three Startling Myths about FDR and the New Deal & Myths of the Great Depression Morphh 20:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

With your recent post in "Indirect Effects", I think you duplicated the 2nd paragraph under "Monthly Entitlement Checks". I did not know if this was intentional or not. Also in this post, the prebate checks are not given to all members of society. They are only given to legal residents of the U.S. Perhaps you were referring to income levels? Morphh 02:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Free Trade Communists?

Contrary to communism as a theory, and even communism as it has been practiced, The People's Republic of China; the largest self described communist nation in the world, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, communist China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [4].

The People's Republic of China's "Special Economic Zones" have few restrictions upon buisnesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.

According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." [5]

Hi, The first sentence I think still needs to be redone. If you refer to "Communism as a theory" at all, it is suspect. Who is the interpretter of communist theory? You? The Chinese Communist party? Me? Second, the part "communism as practiced" does assume a particular POV, i.e. the POV that the Chinese CP practices communism. Putting two problems together in one sentence doesn't cancel them out.

The sencond sentence refers to "communist China". I think it would be more neutral to say "The Peoples Republic of China" and if necessary, add something to the effect, "the ruling party of which describes itself as Communist..."

Other than these two objections, I think this edit is accurate. I would favor adding it to the article, provided the two points mentioned are changed, (and possibly the section title) Of course I'm willing to hear the opinions of others...(BostonMA 18:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

I'm refering there, to communism as a theory as it originated. NO markets whatsoever. No private ownership whatsover. Communism as practiced refers to those who call themselves communist rhetorically but in practice do something different than the theory, such as allow the ownership of small private farms, money systems, or state ownership of industry. I think this is fine as is.

Second remark, that is doable.

(Gibby 21:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

Free Trade Communists?

Contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lennin, Stalin, and Mao, The People's Republic of China; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, The People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [6].

The People's Republic of China's "Special Economic Zones" have few restrictions upon buisnesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.

According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." [7]

SUGGESTED TITLES...add your own.

• "Communism with market characteristics" [8] no hits!
• "Market Oriented Communists" [9] 2 hits!
• "Communism and Capitalism Today" [10] 11 hits!
• Free Trade Communists

27 hits

• Free Market Communists

109 hits (oh that was my original one)

• Free Market Communism

178 hits http://www.google.com/search?hs=uwc&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=%22Free+Market+Communism%22&btnG=Search

Hey following your own logic the section "The growth of modern Communism" has only 158 hits http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=%22The+growth+of+modern+Communism%22&btnG=Google+Search should we get rid of it?

What do hits have to do with anything? Is this your way of determining original research? Because I hate to break it to you, but...titles are not research, they are titles (Gibby 22:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

Mattley AGREES, Title is settled

Using Mattley's logic Free Trade Communists gets 27 hits and cannot be used because it gets too few hits. Because his complaint with the page is only with the FMC section and its title, it must be assumed he has no complaints with any other title. Therefore logic dicatates that one must search for the titles that work and discover the appropriate hits to be included in this page.

"The Growth of Modern Communism" gets 158 hits.

Therefore anything with 158 or more should be included.

Therefore, "Free Market Communism" which has 178 hits, should be included.

Thanks for your input Mattley!!!!

(Gibby 22:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

Free Market Communism

Contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lennin, Stalin, and Mao, The People's Republic of China; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, The People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [11].

The People's Republic of China's "Special Economic Zones" have few restrictions upon buisnesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.

According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." [12]

Market Reforms of Modern Communists

Contrary to communist theory proposed by Marx and Engles, and later adapted by Lenin, Stalin, Mao the People's Republic of China; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, the People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [13].

These Special Economic Zones have few restrictions upon businesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties, and a free price system. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones, China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.

According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." [14]

Several other self proclaimed communist countries have also made pro market reforms in the last few decades including Vietnam and Russia; each to varying degress of aggression and sucess.

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If you wish to talk about the market reforms of various communist states, shouldn't this go in the communist state article? -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 00:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The communists would likely delete it there. If not, 172, Mattley, and Nadi would track me over there and delete it on more bogus grounds (Gibby 07:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

There are two Chinese states

Kindly stop referring to the People's Republic of China as "China". There are two states within China, each of which assert their independence. Kindly use the proper addressment, as it is very offensive otherwise. You have no respect for the situation, it seems. To claim that the entire culture and nation of China is currently subject to one Neo-Bolshevik administration and completely ignoring the other state not only insults Chinese culture, but shows your insensitivity to a nation that is de jure in civil war. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 07:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Not according to the Peoples Republic of China, the United States, or the United Nations...the official policy is ONE CHINA. ^_^ Encyclopedias are not meant to rub peoples backs or sugar coat issues.(Gibby 07:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

The ideal, is of course one China, but at this present moment there remains two. In the encyclopedia, as part as the NPOV policy, it would be very kind to stop referring to "China". In the Black Book of Communism, it wasn't China that killed 65 million people since 1949 (whether their figures are true or not): it was the People's Republic of China that did. It's not China that implements Special Economic Zones, it is the People's Republic of China. Ignoring this fact supports the point of view of Chinese reunification under the Gongchandang, which is an entirely biased view and violates the NPOV policy. Please refrain from referring to the People's Republic of China as "China" in the future. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 07:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Encylopedeas do not have to be politically correct but factually accurate. It is factually accurate to refrence one china as it is factually accurate to mention that some people believe their are 2. Other than that I do not care, nor should anyone care if you get offended. Being offended does not violate NPOV policy. Stop making crap up. (Gibby 07:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

No, it is not a fact there is one China. That is a POV. It's not about merely about the offensiveness, it is an NPOV violation because it supports the POV of Chinese reunification under the Gongchandang in favour over Chinese reunification under the Kuomintang, or complete independence under the DPP. See how the articles China and People's Republic of China are separate articles? They are distinct entities. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 07:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

No it is a fact, there is only one recognized china, that is not a pov that is documentented international policy...just as their is no recognized indpendent palistinian state. Or do you make up your own international law along with wiki rules? (Gibby 07:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

Again Palestine and Israel are separate articles. Ho-hum. International policy remains a POV, even a majority one. There are some who contest it. Remember how you said that minority views should not be excluded? Here is blatant hypocrisy for you. Just kindly use the term PRC in the future, then all will be well. In this area. It isn't that hard. They are separate articles anyway, so even without the NPOV violation, you need to disambig it. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 07:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Let me repeat myself: Encylopedeas do not have to be politically correct but factually accurate. It is factually accurate to refrence one china as it is factually accurate to mention that some people believe their are 2. Other than that I do not care, nor should anyone care if you get offended. Being offended does not violate NPOV policy. Stop making crap up. (Gibby 07:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

When people refer to china they always understand it as PRC...unless your some hyper sensative person with a prebuilt pov. No one but certain segments of global society refers to Taiwan as China for example. (Gibby 07:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

That there is one China is not a fact. It's not about political correctness (in fact, it doesn't matter): it is a fact, that there are two Chinese political entities. A fact. It is a fact, that both of them assert themselves as the true China. International diplomacy favours the PRC, but Wikipedia isn't here to kowtow to international relationships. It is here to write an encyclopedia. Fact remains: there are two Chinese entities, and you need to disambig them anyway, POV violation or not. I am NOT talking about being offended or being politically correct. I am talking about the fact that referring to the PRC as "China" constitutes supporting the point of view of Chinese reunification under the Gongchandang, and therefore constitutes an NPOV violation. I am not being hypersensitive: on the contrary, your insensitivity to this situation demonstrates exactly why you run into problems with everybody at Wikipedia. I am not talking about referring to the ROC as "China". ROC isn't the China. The PRC isn't the China. China is made up of two distinct entities. Plenty of people refer to China when they mean China before 1949 (or perhaps 1928, or 1911, before the civil war)....many people refer to the PRC as "communist China". Tolerable. Many people refer to the PRC as China because they are lazy. But when reminded about it, it is proper etiquette to write it as "People's Republic of China". Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 07:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Only in a few minds. Almost everyone refers to the PRC as China, politically, internationally, socially, scolastically, and by definition. These articles arent about statisyfing your sensetive POVs, get over it! Though I think this has more to do finding minute details to complain about. (Gibby 07:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

Especially considering I wrote PRC before mentioning China alone in the section just above tihs...you've got no damn complaint. Its perfectly legimate to write in that style....(Gibby 07:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

Actually, very few people do. It is not my POV, the entire encyclopedia so far segregates the PRC and China. Even without the POV issue, I have again said: kindly stop referring to the PRC as China in the article namespace so I don't have to correct your edits everytime you do it. The way you discount the Taiwanese people (as a few minds) shows your insensitivity and your systemic bias as in the Western Hemisphere as it seems, who could care less about Chinese culture. Even my Chinese teacher (laoshi), who passionately supports Chinese reunification doesn't refer to the PRC as China, accepting statements of two China's (while being particularly vehement about it, of course). If you are already mentioning it, (which you only do because it was brought up) then fine: continuing doing so. It is lazy, not legitimate to write in the style. It is forgivable to write in that style, but not technically correct. People sometimes refer to a quadratic equation when they mean quadratic function and so forth, or use them interchangeably, and that is perhaps out of laziness, but when reminded about it, it does matter in distinction. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 07:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Did you know that not all people of Taiwan are Chinese? Especially those poor Taiwanese who were killed by the Nationalists upon their "takeover" of the island... Or do you really not care about offending them and their decendents? (Gibby 07:57, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html http://www.google.com/search?hs=ha6&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=map+of+China&btnG=Search

Or do you just like arguing over stupid crap? (Gibby 08:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

It's not about political offense. Did I know that? Of course, it has been taught since primary school. Did you have to insult me by saying I did not? Even if some Taiwanese are not Han Chinese, China extends over Tibet, the Hui Chinese (Muslims) and Taiwan (before 1911) anyway, and that doesn't remove the fact that there are two political entities who assert themselves as the true China. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 08:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

and that doesnt negate the fact that google searches of CHINA lend one to find PRC China because most people on the planet refer to PRC china as just China, including academics, journalists, pundits, and politicians... Its so not a big deal to me anyway that you can go edit all the chinas into PRC china if you so choose I wont stop you. (Gibby 08:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

Well fine. It would be helpful if you simply disambig'ed your statements. Many people do refer to the PRC as China out of laziness - but not most. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 08:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Death toll

Gibby, I suggest you take a look at this: [15]. The page contains detailed estimates for hundreds of mass killings from hundreds of sources. I sincerely doubt you could find anything that isn't already listed there. Note that the lower estimates for Stalin are around 3.5 million, and those for Mao are around 19.5 million. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 14:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

From that webpage:

1. Rudolph J. Rummel, Death By Government

   * "Democides" - Government inflicted deaths (1900-87)
         o 169,198,000
         o Including:
               + Communist Oppression: 110,286,000
               + Democratic democides: 2,028,000
   * Not included among democides:
         o Wars: 34,021,000
         o Non-Democidal Famine (often including famines associated with war and communist mismanagement):
               + China (1900-87): 49,275,000
               + Russia: (1921-47): 5,833,000
   * Total:
         o 258,327,000 for all the categories listed here.

1. Me (Matthew White, Historical Atlas of the Twentieth Century, 2001):

   * Deaths by War and Oppression:
         o Genocide and Tyranny:
               + 83,000,000
         o Military Deaths in War:
               + 42,000,000
         o Civilian Deaths in War:
               + 19,000,000
         o Man-made Famine:
               + 44,000,000
         o TOTAL:
               + 188,000,000
   * FAQ: How did you get these totals?
   * (Note: It's commonly said that more civilians than soldiers die in war, but you may notice that my numbers don't seem to agree with that. Before you jump to any conclusions, however, remember that most civilian deaths in war are intentional, and therefore fall into the "genocide and tyranny" category. Many others are the result of starvation.)
   * My estimate for the Communist share of the century's unpleasantness:
         o Genocide & Tyranny: 44M
               + (incl. intentional famine)
         o Man-made Famine: 37M
               + (excl. intentional famine)
         o Communist-inspired War (for example the Russian Civil War, Vietnam, Korea, etc.)
               + Military: 5M
               + Civilian: 6M
               + NOTE: With these numbers, I'm tallying every combat death and accidental civilian death in the war, without differentiating who died, who did it or who started it. According to whichever theory of Just War you are working from, the Communists may be entirely blameless, or entirely to blame, for these 11M dead.
         o TOTAL: 92M deaths by Communism.
         o RESIDUE: 96M deaths by non-Communism.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... (Gibby 15:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC))

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin take a look again, he says Stalin's regime was responsible for 20 million deaths that is about 17 million more than you said when you sent me this link. (Gibby 06:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC))

Uh, most civilian deaths in war are usually not intentional, but the result of collateral damage. I mean, otherwise I could argue the United States killed all those thousands of civilians in Iraq "intentionally". I don't think they did, but if you want to play that game, fine. Elle vécut heureusement _{toujours dorénavant} (Be eudaimonic!) 06:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

(Note: It's commonly said that more civilians than soldiers die in war, but you may notice that my numbers don't seem to agree with that. Before you jump to any conclusions, however, remember that most civilian deaths in war are intentional, and therefore fall into the "genocide and tyranny" category. Many others are the result of starvation.)

That is his personal opinion. Perhaps he is a leftist, or perhaps he's noting that tyranical regimes typically do kill civilians on purpose. The Soviet Union was not above murdering and raping civilians in towns they conquered. (Gibby 15:28, 7 January 2006 (UTC))

"liberal democracy" controversial term?

Regarding the pov article economics of fascism where you have made two edits inserting "self-described" before "liberal democratic states:" I believe that adding reference to the fringe libertarian opinion is more pov then leaving the statement as is.

Liberal Democracy (and Fascism) are quantitative terms, and by nature do not reflect on a concrete ideological view point. I believe there is a list of qualities which are common in liberal democratic states. What I think you should notice about the term is that the term reflects on reality. The term does not define a concrete set of ideological values. It is simply a term to catagorise a group of countries with similar (but not the same) governance structures. Stating that there is controversy regarding what the term should mean is irrelevent, as the term is used to define connections in reality. ...same with the terms "fascist" or "communist" etc.--sansvoix 00:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

stating that you can be a liberal democracy with central command economies is an oxymoron. One which politicians and populists have not bothered to reconcile because of the tangeble benefits of labeling themselves or being associated with liberalism. (Gibby 05:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

You are allowed to have that opinion. What I am telling you is the academic interpretation of "liberal democracy." It is a word used to catagorise those similar countries governance structures, it is not refering to an exact set of values. The free-market fundamentalist point of view has no place in the introduction, and I think wikipedia policy will agree with me on that. --sansvoix 07:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

considering this is an article on libertarianism the tone of your statement is an intentional ironic pov smack against something I believe you disagree with.(Gibby 07:26, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

I changed the tone, I see your point. Why didn't you say that at the start? The sentance gives important context, it is factual and relevent.--sansvoix 08:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

24-hour block

You have been blocked for 24 hours for violating the three-revert rule on the Wal-Mart article. I hope you come back and edit productively tomorrow. Please discuss conflicts on article talk pages instead of reverting, since revert-wars are considered harmful. Regards, – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 18:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I hate the goddamn admins on wikipidia they are so fucking stupid! Reverting non discussed deletions is not a violation of the rule!

Sure it is. 3RR is very explicit that reverting anything other than simple and obvious vandalism (WP:Vandalism) more than 3 times is violation of the rule. Your cursing and conduct is also a violation of a number of policies. Take the 24 hours to cool down or you're not going to make it around here.--Tznkai 18:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I've been on here for several months and I've noticed several things, you people make up rules as you go along. I've been blocked 4 times for doing far less than other editors on the same article. For example I've never seen 172 and Nati blocked and often they've done 4-5 reverts in a 24 hour period...real reverts. Not replacing bullets because of stupid undiscussed disagreement. THis is bullshit. Once again! (Gibby 18:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC))

prove it with diffs of the reverts--Tznkai 18:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

as a blocked person i am not privy to view differences in edits. you can however see the discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wal-Mart and see that babubhatt did not participate in the dicussion. His vandalistic revert of my bullets is most likely the result of a heavy anti wal-mart pov on his own part evident in the title of another revert in which he called me a "wal-mart drone" I bet nothing was done there TZnakai about his name calling, you probably only care about making complaints against people you disagree with...as most admins and editors do here anyway (its called making rules suite your own ends!) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wal-Mart&action=history

In regards to an e-mail KDRGibby sent me, I'm sorry, but 4 reverts in 24 hours is a violation of the 3RR, even if you think you're right. I decline to unblock you. In regards to the "goddamn" admins who are "so fucking stupid", please refrain from issuing personal attacks. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 18:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I call bullshit because I am right. You dont know the meaning of revert or the meaning of the rule. Reverting vandalism is not a violation period. Read the rules again.

Your attitude here is just going to get you into more trouble you know.--Tznkai 18:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

That doesnt matter at all, people here already have their mind made up. Delete opposition, block them when you can, revert them at all cost, and get your friends to help. I'm not here to be nice, I'm here to make sure shit is factual and to stop leftist bully vandals like 172, Mattley, Nati, and Babubhatt from destroying factual information that destroys or contradicts their own poorly reasoned beliefs. (Gibby 18:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC))

Aslo not tznkai that saying people have no ground to stand on is not a personal attack. Nor is saying they are hypocrites and giving evidence. Nor is saying their logic is flawed and providing them evidence. Calling them stupid leftist fuckers however is a personal attack...as much as I'd like to use that apt term, I have not. (Gibby 19:00, 12 January 2006 (UTC))