Talk:Ana Ivanovic

Requested Move 3

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus reached, see last comment(non-admin closure) jcc (tea and biscuits) 11:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

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Ana Ivanovic → Ana Ivanović – per Anne M. Todd Venus and Serena Williams 2009 Page 92. (Please note that this is the only diacritic-removed biography of a living European person on en.wp and that no green card or dual nationality issues are involved) Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• The reference refered to above is a Amazon.com hardback school book the citation is "Venus, on the other hand, marched through the rounds by easily defeating Sharapova in the fourth round, Svetlana Kuznetsova in the quarterfinals, and Ana Ivanović in the semifinals." In ictu oculi (talk) 02:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
  • References from the FRENCH Google are not reliable for evaluating common usage in ENGLISH. --B2C 04:56, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Diacritic is not used on her own official English website[1], or on reliable sources like the NY Times [2] and The Times [3]. --B2C 04:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - again??? This person's own personal English website is Ana Ivanovic, the governing bodies of tennis spell it Ana Ivanovic, the grand slams spell it Ana Ivanovic, the English press spells it Ana Ivanovic. She has a facebook page too and she chose Ana Ivanovic. I don't think this is the "only" English spelled biography of a living European. It's one thing to push diacritics, it's another to push diacritics on a biography whose subject spells it without diacritics in English. How many times is this same person going to put these sites up for votes? Over and over till people get sick of it and don't vote anymore? Ridiculous move request. I'm guessing that Jelena Dokic will be next to be put under the rm requests and then Novak Djokovic. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per B2C and Fyunck, WP:UE -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 07:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment "Please note that this is the only diacritic-removed biography of a living European person on en.wp and that no green card or dual nationality issues are involved". What has a "green carand "dual nationality" got to do with anything (BTW green card is a specifically American centric thing immigration documents to other countries are not all called green cards)? For example what about all those Irish people such as Gerry Adams (I have no idea what he was christened, but for sure he was not christened "Gerry")? BTW Irish people have the right to abode in any part of the UK without any more documentation than a British person needs, after all part of Ireland is in the UK. Besides even if you were right and this was "only diacritic-removed biography of a living European person on en.wp" you seem to be arguing that Wikipedia should ignore usage in reliable sources and set a rule based on an internal consistency. Consistency should not trump usage in English language reliable sources. If it did then we would probably remove the diaeresis of the e on the members of the "Brontë family", because it is uncommon to use a diaeresis on an e in the spelling of English names, we do not because of usage in reliable English language sources. Iio can you justify a move on common usage in reliable English language sources, because you parenthetical justification does not meet Wikipedia article title policy or its naming conventions. -- PBS (talk) 16:47, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not going to respond to every comment here.

PBS - as before with lengthy discussion on Talk:Édouard Deldevez RM the difference between your interpretation of WP:RS and other en.wp editors lies is Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources - "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content". Other editors do not consider sources with no É in the font set reliable for the statement of whether a name has É. Same then with ć.

Fyunck - I repeat that Ana Ivanović is the only diacritic-removed biography of a living European person on en.wp (examples of Serbian -dj, German -ss are not diacritic removal but consonant substitution). The third player you mention is an Australian. We give Australian names to Australians. We don't give Australian names to Serbian citizens living in Serbia. See Ivanović. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I make it a point not to "give" names to anyone. I let the sources show me the correct English spelling. And almost all her sources (and her own multiple websites) show it's Ana Ivanovic. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Iio luckily there is guidance on how to asses usage in reliable sources, which does not come down to a personal point of view (because your statement "Other editors do not consider sources with no É in the font set reliable for the statement of whether a name has É. Same then with ć.", is mirrored in the view that the only reliable sources are those that stick to the 26 letters of the English alphabet (because for example it is easy to type and does not screw up characters used in the url) -- which I think is the counterpart of the personal view you are putting forward). Such statements do not allow editors acting in good faith to agree on a compromise. There is guidance on how to assess what are suitable reliable sources that can be used that does not rely on a personal prejudice. It is in the appropriate naming convention Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and it says "In general, the sources in the article, a Google book search of books published in the last quarter-century or thereabouts, and a selection of other encyclopaedias, should all be examples of reliable sources; if all three of them use a term, then that is fairly conclusive. If one of those three diverges from agreement then more investigation will be needed". In this case which of the three criteria indicates support for you move? -- PBS (talk) 07:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support – Ana Ivanović with the acute accent is the only correct way to spell her name. Diacritics like this are only removed due to lack of knowledge of their existence, lack of knowledge of how to input them, lack of display support or misguided attempts at anglicization. None of these need apply here. MTC (talk) 17:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

  Ana herself uses the non-diacritic English spelling, so this really makes no sense. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

  Correction: Ana's webmaster uses the non-diacritic spelling. Nymf _{talk to me} 19:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support - More accurate spelling, in line with wikipedia practices. mgeo talk 18:02, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support as per MTC's rationale. Nymf _{talk to me} 18:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I get 629 post-2000 English-language GBook results for this name. There are 16 pages of results, so about 150 relevant hits. Out of those, I get 10 results with the diacritic. Of those 10, only the first four results look relevant. I think the "lack of knowledge" theory is refuted by the fact that she doesn't use a diacritic on her own Website. Kauffner (talk) 19:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
• Questions @MTC how do you know it is the "only correct spelling"? @mgeo how do you know it is the "More accurate spelling"? -- PBS (talk) 22:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

  Now, I would hope you already know this, as you have been involved in many of these discussions before, but for the benefit of anyone who may actually see the question with no reply and assume PBS is automatically correct without independently looking it up for themselves (I encourage you to do so rather than taking either my or PBS’s word for it). It’s very simple. The alphabet we use is the Latin alphabet. The language this name is from (Serbian) also has a Latin alphabet, meaning that every Serbian name has a specific spelling in the Latin alphabet. For this name, that spelling is “Ana Ivanović”. This information is all available on Wikipedia itself, you can easily look it up. Serbian language, Serbian Latin alphabet, Ana Ivanović’s article in the Latin alphabet on the Serbian Wikipedia. Now, having said the bit about looking it up for yourself, I shall try to avoid answering any more questions that can be definitively answered with quick searches. Find out the relevant facts for yourself, don’t take the word of anyone here. MTC (talk) 05:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  • This is just word games. You're defining native language usage as "correct" and English language usage as incorrect, inverting the "use English" principle. Kauffner (talk) 06:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  And you said "The alphabet we use is the Latin alphabet." This is not true. We sometimes use the English alphabet, sometimes use the Latin alphabet, and maybe others for all I know. But we go where the sources lead us. We don't automatically use the foreign spelling per longstanding wikipedia policy. We use sources and lean heavily towards English sources. You say on your talkpage you want to revert Novak Djokovic and China too, and abolish all common names at wikipedia. I've agreed with some of your points on wiki, but not these. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  Yeah, but he's flexible. Although his preferred option is to put China at 中华人民共和国, he is willing to settle for Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó. Kauffner (talk) 07:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  I think there is a fairly wide consensus that a diacritic-stripped name is less accurate unless it's proven as an established English translation. The unaccented "Ana Ivanovic" might be a borderline case but seeing the interwiki links and the other Ivanović, it doesn't seem the best choice to me, especially if it's spelled this way only in sources that never use the ć. mgeo talk 22:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

  There is a Wikpidia policy that says follow usage in reliable sources, there is no consensus for basing an article title on "I don't like it" or "I prefer". So your "More accurate spelling" is really "it doesn't seem the best choice to me". If my interpretation of you statements is not correct do you have any evidence to show what the usage is in English language sources provides evidence that a particular spelling is the "More accurate spelling"? -- PBS (talk)

• Support for the sake of encyclopaedic precision and correct pronunciation as per Beyoncé Knowles. Her name's definitely romanised as Ana Ivanović. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 06:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

  What is the evidence that you have that her name is "definitely romanised as Ana Ivanović" in most reliable English language sources? -- PBS (talk) 07:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose the proposer uses a single source with a diacritic to substantiate this request. The opposers have provided dozens of examples of the common use of her surname being without the diacritic. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support per MTC good rationale. --WhiteWriter^speaks 21:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
  • You mean a claim of "accuracy" over our guidelines including WP:COMMONNAME? Could you explain what part of the various MTC para's contain a "good rationale"? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:29, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

• Request relist - 5 support and 5 oppose (in fact 6 support including nom, and 6 oppose including PBS who has headed "comment" but opposed 4 times). As per User:Joy's RM above the unanswered issue is why this Ivanović should be different from all other en.wp Ivanovićs. While it's true that sports people don't get many mentions in high-MOS sources, but with 3 Amazon.com English books which use East Europe fonts mentioning ć this Ivanović has more high-MOS support than almost any East Europe sports BLP, and yet we're still making this BLP the exception.

As 53 weeks ago, a major argument for this Ivanović being the 1 notable exception on en.wp concern's Dan Holzmann 's DH Management having contracted Eton Digital of Slough to build and maintain a basic-ASCII fan website. And yet look at 3. What’s your favourite music? Ana: "I’ve been listening to a lot of Serbian music lately." (May 27th 2013 try to ignore that Eton Digital has spelled Le Quotidien as Quotodien). At the very same time as a handful of en.wp Users are protesting that this Serbian citizen should be the only anglicized WP:BLP "get the article right" name on en.wp, the subject of the BLP herself is giving interviews to the French press saying she likes listening to "a lot of Serbian music lately" Clicking en.wp's Serbian music#Pop gives "Nataša Bekvalac, Emina Jahović, Željko Joksimović, Aleksandra Kovač, Zdravko Čolić, and others." All Serbian living people with en.wp names following en.wp's East Europe MOS guidelines and en.wp's normal practice.

Anyway, the point of the above is to say that there's no hurry to close this RM. This BLP remains 1 oddity (or trophy?) in en.wp's article stock of 100,000s of BLPs, and a wider and broader quorum of en.wp editors is likely to be beneficial. Particularly if there's any intention to wait 53 weeks to reopen it, as this time. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:59, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - Looks like time to close as no consensus - depending on the time of year this could go back and forth with ebbs and flows for awhile. Plus the same thing happened a year ago with a month of back and forth with no consensus to move. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

WP:MOSBIO

Unrelated issue, but we might as well do this at the same time since the clans are gathered. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies gives under WP:OPENPARA example:

François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand (26 October 1916 – 8 January 1996) was the 21st President of the French Republic ...

In Serbia bios (since Serbia has two scripts, Latinica used in popular newspapers, Cyrillic in serious print) this becomes

Tomislav Nikolić (Serbian Cyrillic: Томислав Николић, Serbian pronunciation: [tǒmislaʋ nǐkolitɕ]; born 15 February 1952) is the President of Serbia since 31 May 2012.

For some time this article has had a Ana Ivanovic .....Ana Ivanović... lead, uniquely among en.wp BLP leads, now would be a good time to bring it into line with WP:MOSBIO.

Ana Ivanović (Serbian Cyrillic: Ана Ивановић; [3][4] Serbian pronunciation: [âna iʋǎːnoʋitɕ] ( listen)) (born November 6, 1987) is a former world no. 1 Serbian tennis player.

I have done this. The lede is now inline with WP:MOSBIO example, and does not treat Ana Ivanović as having an English exonym name such as Munich or Geneva. It is also consistent with the way we do not treat English biographies:

Sir Noël Peirce Coward (16 December 1899 – 26 March 1973) also written Noel Coward, was an English playwright, composer, director, actor and singer, known for his wit, flamboyance, ...

Alternatively, if Ana Ivanović is to be the 1 exception among Serbia BLPs to WP:MOSBIO, then she should be written into WP:MOSBIO explaining why she is an exception. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:52, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

• Not really, MOS is a guideline, not a policy, local exceptions are permitted, particularly if local consensus has been established. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:58, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you please link to where local consensus has been established to treat Ana Ivanović differently to WP:MOSBIO? In ictu oculi (talk) 12:46, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

All the community discussions above. And there's no reason that any page should follow WP:MOSBIO by default, it's just a guideline. If you listed all exceptions to all guidelines across all of Wikipedia, you'd create a whole new encyclopedia. Currently consensus dictates no diacritic is needed by the community here. You know that, why you would need to ask, I know not. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:03, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Rambling Man, what community discussions above? WP:OPENPARA refers to the lead - look at the examples, Mitterand etc. The lead of this article hasn't been discussed. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:20, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Well it may not have been discussed explicitly, but as I've said (and you've ignored twice) there's no reason to list "exceptions" in any part of MOS, MOS is a guideline. Your opening post wasn't clear, it was referring mainly to MOSBIO, not OPENPARA explicitly. Allthough your examples were referring to the opening lines, perhaps you could make it clearer next time. In conclusion, no need to list articles in MOS which don't comply with that part of MOS. Goodness, how many articles would we have to list at WP:ACCESS if we took your approach?!! The Rambling Man (talk) 09:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, because, as we said, there is only 1 article where Ana Ivanovic (Serbian: Ana Ivanović, Serbian Cyrillic: Ана Ивановић) format has been added. So the number is 1.

I'm curious, do you just support this format for this particular article, or would you like to see it expanded to other Serbian BLPs? or to foreign BLPs in general including the MOSBIO case example François Mitterrand into Francois Mitterrand (French: François Mitterrand) type edits? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

How can you be so sure the number is 1? Not that it's important, but I'm curious how you can prove that? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Pretty simple, this could only happen on a tennis or ice hockey BLP, and with the 2 ice-hockey editors banned that just leaves tennis. Note how quickly the Francois Mitterand... François Mitterrand edit was caught. Secondly, as before, this is the only 1 article where a RM has deliberately anglicized the name of a non-emigrant European living person, so it's the only lead where this could occur. It's possible that there's a maltitled stub or two lurking somewhere but WP Footy editors for example habitually upgrade new maltitled BLP stubs in the process of sourcing, tagging and wikifying, no one fails to correct a title and adds a lead like this]. So this is the only 1. Does that affect your answer? In ictu oculi (talk)

I don't follow your logic. How can you prove this is unique across all of Wikipedia? In any case, we don't note exceptions in MOS, it's a guideline after all. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Well I've given the explanation - and given that this Tennis Names business has been going on since Feb 2012 there's been 15 months to find another article like this one. Anyway, this isn't a one-way discussion, I asked, do you just support this format for this particular article, or would you like to see it expanded to other Serbian BLPs? or to foreign BLPs in general including the MOSBIO case example François Mitterrand into Francois Mitterrand (French: François Mitterrand) type edits? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:21, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I've seen plenty of BLPs which don't follow your preference. I don't see why one-size-fits-all should be the case. Now then, for the fourth or fifth time of asking, we don't list exceptions to MOS in the MOS, do we? Please confirm. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:26, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Rambling Man,

You say I am wrong and that you have seen plenty. Okay if there are plenty then please can you link to one, because I spend a lot of time in European bio and BLP space and don't know any. (Are you certain it wasn't someone who'd changed nationality such as Handel or Schoenberg?).

Actually we do list significant groups of exceptions in WP:MOSBIO. For example we list Lucy Washington as an example of a married name. Or for example we list Slim Pickens as an example of a stagename. What we don't do I agree is list 1 offs where an article has been pulled around contrary to MOSBIO, which is underlying tenor of the question here. Is this a significant example, or is it just one Serbian citizen who has been singled out, for reasons which are unclear. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:43, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Where did I say you were wrong? Radivoj Radić doesn't start the way you want. Nor does Jovan Nikolic. Nor does Slobodan Kovač. There are hundreds of BLP articles that don't start in the same way you state above. We certainly don't list out exceptions to MOS because there's no reason that MOS must apply and guidelines are, after all, just guidelines. As I'm sure you know. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

But Rambling Man, that's my point: all three of those start with Serbian spelling Radivoj Radić and no English spelling. What we're looking for is a non emigrant BLP which starts with an anglicisation like Ana Ivanovic (Serbian Ana Ivanović). In ictu oculi (talk) 16:30, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Then that's incorrect because in English we'd expect to see these names without diacritics, per the majority of English-speaking reliable sources we use, such as the BBC, The New York Times, Reuters etc. Ultimately (and as always) you're advocating your version of "accuracy" (in the above case using a single source for the inclusion of a diacritic) versus WP:COMMONNAME which almost unilaterally does not include the diacritic. Imagine the surprise of most editors typing in a Serb name without the diacritics which most of the world would do (since (a) diacritics are rare and readers aren't aware of them through the common sources they read every day and (b) most keyboards don't easily allow them) to be constantly redirected to an article which they're no longer sure is even what they searched for initially. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Rambling Man,

Well, rightly or wrongly anyone using Britannia will experience the same "surprise" Britannia - Slobodan Milošević.

en.wp has 4,234,378 articles, of which probably 10-20% relate to Europe and Latin America. It is of course possible that they are all "incorrect," (and WP:NCP WP:AT WP:MOSPN along with them) in which case this article is also "incorrect," since it has both Ana Ivanovic and Ana Ivanović in the lead. But question is why this 1 article is 1 exception to the WP:MOSBIO Mitterand example. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:36, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

You're still missing the point. MOSBIO is purely optional. You're trying to make it a policy. Please start a new discussion to make it a policy instead of beating the same dead horse. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• Iio what does "foreign BLPs" mean? Foreign to what? For example is a New Zealand BLP foreign to you? I ask you this question because you did not answer and still have not answered the question above about Irish biographies and did they meet your definition of European. If people are to understand you you need to be much more precise about what you mean. For example if the English language usage and that in the language of the national origin is the same then there is no need to include alternatives. If they differ then it may or may not be appropriate to place the foreign spellings in the first sentence of the article. However in many cases foreign spelling are probably better done via a footnote, as the first sentence should supply more notable and comprehensible information as that is what appears in an search engine page. So for example "(Serbian Cyrillic: Ана Ивановић; [3][4] Serbian pronunciation: [âna iʋǎːnoʋitɕ] ( listen))" is IMHO better placed in a footnote. -- PBS (talk) 10:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

PBS, sorry I'm not interested in the Gerry Adams question, please see WP:EN Tomás Ó Fiaich. If the above means you are happy with Ana Ivanović in the lead, then great. Maybe someone else will answer. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:06, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Duty to accurately spell Ana Ivanović's name per WP:BLP

I want to try a different tack, since the argumentation per Manual of Style is being stymied as it is not weighty enough reason.

Per Wikipedia's policies regarding biographies of living persons, we are under strictures to make their biographies adhere precisely to severe guidelines, including legal accuracy. Has Ana Ivanović changed her legal name from "Ivanović" to "Ivanovic"? Could anyone provide a source, that this has happened? Can someone quote Ana Ivanović from a reliable source on this subject? She is a resident of Switzerland now, so perhaps this occurred when filing for residency there? If not, we would seem to be breaking the strictures of WP:BLP by inventing rationale to spell her name other than her actual name.

I also remind everyone that other Serbian (former world no.1 Jelena Janković who resides in Dubai, or Ana Jovanović who resides in Munich, Germany), Czech (eg., nearly the entire content of Category:Czech female tennis players), Slovak (e.g., nearly the entire content of Category:Slovak female tennis players), Polish tennis players (including world no. 4 Agnieszka Radwańska and her Top40 sister Urszula Radwańska), or even Australian player Jarmila Gajdošová -- are consistently spelled in their BLP articles with their actual legal name spelling. At most, we provide redirects from names without diacritics to facilitate search for those who simply are unaware of these precise spellings, thanks to WTA, BBC, CNN, etcetera. Right now, as I am typing this, the 2013 Bank of the West Classic singles final is being contested by Agnieszka Radwańska and Dominika Cibulková. I am sure that hundreds of news dispatches in the English-speaking world and WTA publications online and elsewhere will omit both player's diacritics, but we are an encyclopedia, and I don't see us doing it. So why is a group of editors doing it to Ana Ivanović (redirect since 2012, spelled correctly on Commons)?

My attempts to copyedit Ivanović per this reasoning earlier today have been forcefully and repeatedly reverted by one of those editors.

Thoughts? --Mareklug ^talk 22:07, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

This is discussed under multiple rms, and they are above to read for your convenience. And books like Encyclopedia Britannica also use English spellings... see Nastase. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Your discussions under RMs are unlawful, to put it bluntly, if they run counter WP:BLP and maintaining best possible spellings for all people whose names include diacritics, such as Ana Ivanović's. And, concerning your straw-man argument about the Romanian tennis player, his BLP biography is located on Wikipedia as Ilie Năstase and his name is spelled that way in it throughout. --Mareklug ^talk 08:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Unlawful??? I've heard a lot of ridiculous stuff around here but that's a new laugher. And you are the one saying we are an encyclopedia so I simply pointed you to another. Certainly you can ignore it if you like. And we are supposed to spell the name the same as the title throughout, just like the "Romanian tennis player." Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:41, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

@Mareklug artile titles should reflect usage in reliable English language sources (as described in the Wikipedia policy WP:AT). Article titles do not reflect official names, unless that name meets the requirements of the Wikipedia AT policy. If your argument held water then many article titles such as Tony Benn would have to be moved (and what would one do with names such as Munich which is clearly not the official name of the city and what title would you give to the article about Elizabeth II (see here for why this is tricky)?) -- PBS (talk) 10:25, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

We're not talking about article titles, which may be parked under whatever, for whatever reasons, but putting people's names correctly within those articles. User:Fyunck(click) reverted my copyedits of Ivanović's last name within the article, and I did not attempt to move the article itself. And if it were as you say, we would have to move all those tennis players I named above to non-diacritical titles and remove the diacriticals from within altogether in every instance, because no English-language sources whatsoever, including the WTA, report them with diacriticals. What is indefensible is making silly exceptions within Wikipedia for some tennis players, as in the case of Anna Ivanović, only because she is notortious in the English-speaking world and her webmaster promotes her without the diacritical. Why Jelena Janković and "Ana Ivanovic"? Why countless non-tennis players such as aircraft engineer Tadeusz Chyliński? I am sure he is never to be found in an English-language source with the "ń" intact. You would have to stand the entire Wikipedia on its head to have it your way. For now, you have only managed to disrupt Ivanović's BLP and perhaps a few others, and only since 2012 or so. This will be corrected with enough complaining, I am sure, if it will takes Jimbo himself to enforce it. --Mareklug ^talk 11:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Mareklug see this comment by Jimbo back in 2001. He may have changed his opinion since, but I suspect appealing to him about how wrong it is to use "Ivanovic" because you think there is a "correct" spelling will probably be a wast of time (and it is forum shopping). -- PBS (talk) 12:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The name of the article is relevant see WP:MOS#Foreign terms "Spell a name consistently in the title and the text of an article". Mareklug you use the term "correct". How does one determine the "correct" name other than through usage in reliable English language sources? -- PBS (talk) 12:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

How does one determine the correct name? From native language sources, obviously. Where do you think all those diacriticals on Wikipedia came from? English-language sources? You are persistently ignoring all those other correctly rendered names within articles (in overwhelming majority titled with diacriticals), and the issue of ad hoc rendering one or two without them. Are you saying they should be rendered devoid of diacriticals because there are no English-language sources for such rendering? And that you haven't gotten around to it yet? --Mareklug ^talk 13:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

No it is not obvious the "correct" name as you put it for the German city of Munich is not München although that is what native language sources use. To determine common spelling of a name in English use reliable English language sources, which is what the WP:AT policy states and so does the MOS (see WP:MOS#Foreign terms) as does WP:BLP "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source" that for English language spelling is most likely going to be in English language sources. It seems to me that you are using a form of WP:SYN: because the subject is a native of Ruritania, the way the subject's name spelt in Ruritanian is the only correct version. Therefore it follows if usage in English reliable sources varies from Ruritanian, the English usage must be incorrect. This SYN is not supported by Wikipeida polices which forbid OR and recommend "use the source Luke" ((WP:V). -- PBS (talk) 15:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The above post conflates exonyms with the dropping of diacritics which is like comparing apples with oranges. RMs the last few few years have mostly been in favour of using diacritics on the basis it being a technical problem not a case of an alternative name leading us to the issue of correctness in BLPs and quality sources. There are cases though where the droping of the diacritics does produce an alternative name, mostly in situations where people have naturalized in the States. I have personally known people to adopt a misspelling/pronounciation in order to fit in with their host country so no two cases are alike. Nevertheless the trend in serious English publications is to use diacritics. Tennis is a particular issue as the majority of sources will be from the tabloid press. If we follow their lead though we would end up with article titles like Bum Bum Boris Agathoclea (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

You write "majority of sources will be from the tabloid press" but the tabloid press are not reliable sources, so they are automatically discounted when choosing an article title (see WP:AT), however many parts of the press are considered reliable when considering usage in English (for examples the London Times, the New York Times and the BBC). The simplicity of the method used to select an article title means that editors do not have to speculate on why or why not reliable sources choose to use or disregard diacritics all that has to be done is to survey reliable English language sources and see what is used. Please see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale". just because a small number of editors who happen to think that there is no need to follow reliable English language sources, when deciding on a an article title for some European names, and express opinions in favour of names they prefer while disregarding reliable English language sources is regrettable as it runs contrary to several Wikipedia polices (WP:AT WP:V and [[WPNOR). However whenever this question is raised in a larger forum the answer is always that article titles should be selected using reliable sources see for example this ongoing discussion on Wikipedia talk:Article titles -- PBS (talk) 22:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP does not require that we only use a person's legal name for the title of our article, Jimmy Carter is a prime example. --GRuban (talk) 17:41, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Once again, this is not about article titles but about names contained within them. My copyedit pertained to changing the names within the article, and that was reverted, not moving the article. For all I care, for some insane reason, Wikipedia may well move all diacritics-rich biographies to non-diacritical titles, but the content must reflect the accurate name, as it does now in nearly every instance, except a few puzzlingly selected and defended by a group of misguided editors. --Mareklug ^talk 21:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

This? Again?! No, article titles follow the common name paradigm, and then we're following the guidance of MOS which says to use consistent article name and name within article. How many times? This is English language Wikipedia by the way, where we refer to Москва as Moscow, hence our article is called Moscow. It's accurate. Or should we have "Moscow" as the title, but Москва therein because "the content must reflect the accurate name"? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Please use a latin script example, as that is what we are discussing at the moment. Agathoclea (talk) 21:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Try not to truck out moronic, straw-man argumentation for your idiotic, ad hoc shaving of diacritics from a few tennis players but not all, and certainly not any other biographies on Wikipedia. Look up exonym. That goes for the "Munich", "Moscow", "Warsaw", "Cologne", "Rome" and any other irrelevant, off-topic "counterexamples" that have nothing to do with rendering people's actual names. --Mareklug ^talk 22:03, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

See my posting here at 15:28, 29 July 2013 which makes the same point as TRM does but with links. -- PBS (talk) 22:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)