Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 March 24: Difference between revisions

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March 24

Category:Theatre award footer templates

Propose renaming Category:Theatre award footer templates to Category:Theatre award templates

Nominator's rationale: expand the small (two subcats and one template) category to allow inclusion of Category:Drama Desk Award templates, Category:Helpmann Awards templates, Category:Helpmann Awards templates, etc as subcategories. —⁠andrybak (talk) 23:10, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Current Honkbal Hoofdklasse team rosters templates

Propose merging Category:Current Honkbal Hoofdklasse team rosters templates to Category:Softball navigational boxes

Nominator's rationale: A category for a single team, that has a single template. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Clock templates

Propose merging Category:Clock templates to Category:Time, date, and time zone user templates

Nominator's rationale: All of these templates are used on user and user talk pages. Merge the smaller, newer category into the older, bigger category. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:27, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Hellboy films

Propose deleting Category:Hellboy films (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Seems like a bit of a WP:SMALLCAT, and a bit redundant given that there's already a relevant navbox. DonIago (talk) 20:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Musical compositions

Propose renaming 1,342 categories. These categories plus their subcats:

... plus subcats of each, giving a total of 1,342 categories to rename. The full list of renamings is at WT:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 March 24#Musical#compositions.

Nominator's rationale to resolve ambiguity, and match the parent Category:Musical compositions and the head article Musical composition.

The term "Compositions" is highly ambiguous: see the disambiguation page Composition, which has 9 entries under "Arts", out of a total of 26 entries.

Note that I have not included some subcats of Category:Musical compositions where the "musical" context is arguably inferred from the name, e.g. Category:Compositions by instrumentation+subcat, Category:Compositions by key+subcats, Category:Classical compositions + subcats. If there is consensus to rename the categories which are included in this nomination, then those edge cases can be considered in separate followup nominations.

Note that this seems to me to meet WP:C2D, since it is to match the head article Musical composition. If you support speedy renaming, please mention that in your !vote. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:46, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closing admin if these categories are renamed, then two category header templates will need to be modified: Template:Year musical compositions category header and Template:Decade musical compositions category header. If you ping me, I will be happy to do the changes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject Classical music has been notified[1]. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Musical compositions survey start

Support - I too think this meets WP:C2D. Oculi (talk) 21:32, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - As long as we say "Composer", and not "Musical composer", the default meaning of "composition" seems to be "composition of music". Also: "musical composition" could be misunderstood as the composition of (Broadway) musicals. I'd prefer to avoid that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC) - Adding: In the first type, "by composer", the addition of "musical" seems particularly redundant. We have such categories only for composers of some notability, who will be known as creating music. We don't have to clarify what kind of compositions Bach and Mozart created. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt, unfortunately, you seem to have not examined the list of categories, at WT:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 March 24#Musical#compositions:

Only five categories used the word "composer". 1,341 use the word "composition". Whatever the primary meaning of "composer", that question is irrelevant here, because this is not a proposal to rename "composer" to "musical composer".
There are 389 chronology categories which give no indication of music, e.g. Category:19th-century compositions, or Category:1957 compositions.
Reliance on Bach and Mozart to prove your case is an extreme exercise in cherrypicking.
there are 936 subcats of Category:Compositions by composer. Very few of them are household names like Bach or Mozart, so most of the names will be meaningless to most readers. A title such as Category:Compositions by Michel van der Aa gives zero clue to vast majority of readers, who will never have heard of Michel van der Aa..

If you want to argue that the default meaning of 'composition' seems to be 'composition of music', them WP:RM is thataway where you can argue the case for making a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT or even a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. But the existing consensus is that musical composition is not the primary topic for "composition".

As I made this nomination, I thought that that if anyone was going to oppose this renaming, it would be Gerda

. It seems to me that as someone immersed in musical topics, you have overlooked the fact that Wikipedia is written for a general readership, for whom classical music is a minority interest. General readers don't start with the assumptions or knowledge of a skilled topic expert like Gerda. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't examined the list, and will not, because I have no extra time. I read in Musical composition, "Musical composition, music composition, or simply composition ...". I have written hundreds of articles on compositions, and never felt that "is a composition" needed an adjective to clarify. My 2ct: not needed in categories either. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt, your point about writing articles is not relevant, because in the text of an article the musical context is clear. A similar situation exists with many many terms, where the qualifying adjective can be omitted when it is clear from the context. Category titles may be seen in any context, where the musical meaning is not self-evident, which is why category title follow article names.

I trust that the closer will draw their own conclusions about how much weight to attach the objections of someone who won't even look at the list of nominated categories.

--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I said what I wanted about needless redundancy, returning only to mention that you seem to have overlooked Category:Compositions by key, another one implying "musical", or are there compositions in keys that are not musical? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:47, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, Gerda Arendt, I did not overlook it.

You noted above that you had not read the list of nominated pages. Now it seems that you didn't even read the nomination, where I wrote: Note that I have not included some subcats of Category:Musical compositions where the "musical" context is arguably inferred from the name, e.g. Category:Compositions by instrumentation+subcat, Category:Compositions by key+subcats, Category:Classical compositions + subcats.

Which part of that is unclear to you? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I admit that my little brain could not imagine to treat these categories incosistently, on top of cluttered. - I was trained on "never change a working system", DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda, 1342 ambiguous titles is not "a working system". And adding a mere 8 characters to a category titles is not "clutter". The category title "1640 musical compositions" is still only 24 characters long, which is a long way from verbosity.

As to "inconsistently", you should already be aware that the parent of all these categories is Category:Musical compositions (that fact is noted in the nominating statement, though as evidenced above you see unwilling to bother to read either the nominator's rationale or the list of nominated categories. so I don't assume that you are aware of this). If you now want to argue that context is irrelevant and that we should apply rigid consistency, then you should support the nomination and follow it it with a renaming of the other subcats such as Category:Compositions by key. But I am sorry to say that your responses so far (and those of Francis S) give a very strong appearance of being based in WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than in policy or in logic. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What I don't like is wasting time, and I wonder for whose sake all this is. My little brain tells me that once the mother category is "Musical compositions", all below don't need to repeat that "musical". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda, the only waste of time here is the efforts by you and Francis to disrupt the discussion with FUD — in your case without reading either the nomination or the list of nominated categories.

The nominated categories are not always seen in the context of a "mother category" whose name includes the phrase "musical compositions". The category name needs to be clear when read alone.--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

"to disrupt"? - "composition" is clear to me, and tell me who will not first think of music (song, rock, symphony, ...) when seeing "composition"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda, for what feels like the 5 millionth time;

The answer to that is in the fast that composition is a dab page, as explained in the nomination which you didn't read. Musical composition is NOT the primary topic of "composition".
You still fail to distinguish between your own responses as someone immersed in classical music, and our general readership which isn't.

The disruption is in your repetition of canards. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tagging. The categories are now all tagged. To verify, use this Petscan query. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:54, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Even when writing prose I find myself often resorting to "musical composition" because without the modifier "composition" is ambiguous. - kosboot (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Little Women and the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" were both composed in the 19th century, so one would expect Category:19th-century compositions to apply to both of them. Since the category is meant to apply only to music and not just anything that could be composed, it ought to have a name that demonstrates its scope. Nyttend (talk) 00:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per key article name and to reduce ambiguity. The situation is not totally analogous to "Composer", which automatically implies musical composer - several other meanings of the word composition use "compositor" or do not have an equivalent noun form. Poems and essays are compositions, as (more trivially in the case of this category) are some chemicals, equations, and legal documents. Grutness...wha? 04:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "... not totally analogous to "Composer", which automatically implies musical composer" – from that perspective at least:

don't make any sense at all: if "composer" implies "... of music" then specifying the kind of compositions they make as "musical" is redundant cruft. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:20, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – clear enough WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Also, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) has a category example that says "compositions ..." and not "musical compositions ..." (meaning: that guideline is not going to change if there's no preliminary notification on its talk page that a change is being discussed somewhere else – and the current proposal above is against the current guidance, and would from that perspective also be unacceptable). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:13, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In short:

Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach does not conform to current guidance; also just on sight, it is redundant clutter all over, not conforming to policy.
Existing guidance on category names containing compositions by composers is not going to change: there's no consensus for it, and the whole proposal above is against current guidance, and would be overturned any time because of not conforming to guidelines.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 06:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Francis Schonken. Your first sentence is simply untrue as a point of fact. The page composition is a disambiguation page, where musical composition is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Please do not disrupt this consensus-forming discussions by making such demonstrably a false assertion; it would be helpful if you would demonstrate your good faith by striking it.

Your comment about Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) is a disingenuous misrepresentation. There is no guidance there that says to use "compositions" rather than "musical compositions". The category name is mentioned in a section headed "Disambiguate by last name only?" (see WP:Naming_conventions_(music)#by_last_name_only, and its guidance is about use of full or last names; its purpose is not to guide on whether to use "compositions" or "musical compositions". Please do not misrepresent guidelines. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, just soldiering on with the ill-conceived proposal instead of retracting it:

"clear enough WP:PRIMARYTOPIC" regards the 1,342 categories proposed for renaming here, not the parent category, which is not even under consideration in this proposal.

There's no misrepresentation: in the WP:NCM guidance the expression "composition(s)" is mentioned 88 times, of which only four times in the "musical composition(s)" sequence, and of these four instances not one in connection with categorisation. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Francis Schonken, you serial misrepesentations give me no grounds for even considering withdrawing the proposal.

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does not apply here. The WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of "1940 compositions" is not "1640 musical compositions", per the ambiguity of the word composition.

WP:NCM does not at any point claim assert that category or article tiles should use the bare word "composition(s)" instead of "musical composition(s)". Please stop your blatantly dishonest attempts to pretend that it does. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies to List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, and hence to Category:Lists of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, the example I gave below. For precision: WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies to too many of the 1,342 categories proposed for renaming here, so I oppose the bloated proposal as a whole, it completely lacks the nuance needed when talking about a group of 1,342 categories

Likewise, Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach is currently sanctioned as an example of how it should be done at the WP:NCM guidance. And that's the only example of composition-related categories in article titling guidance I'm aware of. It's not much, but overthrowing it is also not something for which consensus has been found (or even sought!) at the relevant guidance talk page. So we're very far from consensus on the matter, and my original assertion, "there's no consensus for it" is absolutely correct. Or do you propose to be judge-n-jury regarding what kind of consensus your own proposal garnered thus far (or not)?

The time sink aspect of this is growing really out of all proportion, so I'd suggest again, please, please, retract your behemoth of a proposal, which, as a whole, is untenable – which, really, should have been clear to anyone on first sight, like it was to me. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply @Francis Schonken: you falsely assert that Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach is currently sanctioned as an example of how it should be done at the WP:NCM guidance.

It is absolutely clear from that section (see WP:Naming_conventions_(music)#by_last_name_only) that it is cited as an example of why to use the full name. It does not in any way stipulate the use of "compositions" rather than "musical compositions", and merely reports the current usage of the bare word "composition". Francis's repeated misrepresentations of the guidance are no longer excusable as an error; they are blatantly dishonest, and are a continuation of his exercise in FUD, which included an effort on my talk page to bully me into withdrawing this nomination (they include coming back to harass me[2] after I had explicitly asked Francis NOT to reply[3].) It is shameful to see that this exercise is continuing here.

@Francis Schonken: I will not withdraw this nomination, and per WP:CSK it is no longer in my gift to do so. Please see what consensus emerges, and stop trying to bully me into withdrawal.

One of the key principles in category naming is consistency: that's why we have speedy criteria WP:C2C and WP:C2D. That's why a decision on naming should be take in respect of the set as a whole, not in respect of the few exceptionally-well-known examples which Francis repeatedly cherrypicks. There is only one JS Bach, but there over 900 subcats of Category:Compositions by composer, and we need to use a consistent naming format, not one chosen to suit the exceptional example. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:C2D. It may be helpful to advertise this discussion on the talk page of the guideline that Francis Schonken mentions. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:C2D is a naming relation between a category and its eponymous encyclopedia article – not between hundreds of subcategories and their parent category. Example:
- List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach is the eponymous article for Category:Lists of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach – so per the C2D rule that category should stay at that name and not be renamed to Category:Lists of musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, while then the category name would no longer conform to the WP:C2D rule.
--Francis Schonken (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Due to the size of this nomination, I have collapsed the larger portions of the list to east scrollability. Anyway, this is a clear support per C2d. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 08:51, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As illustrated with an example above, the WP:C2D guidance does not support the proposal, even if the initiator misrepresented it as such in their opening statement – as a consequence I've asked the initiator if they would consider to retract their ill-advised massive proposal. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, collapsed the lot: especially the subcategories illustrate the absurdity of this proposal, so, it is not these hundreds of subcategories that should be collapsed, while the (possibly less obvious) top parent categories are not. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:24, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was absurd [of Francis Schonken] to list the lot, disruptive even. WP:C2D applies to subcats via the last criterion and consensus at many cfds. Oculi (talk) 10:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@LaundryPizza03 and Oculi: The nomination as made was carefully formatted for clarity (see nomination as made). Sadly, the full list was copied into the main discussion by Francis Schonken, with apparent disruptive intent. I have restored[4] the nomination as made, with a clear link to the full list on the subpage. Placing the full list on a subpage is widely used at CFD for mass nominations, to stop the discussion page becoming over large. The list on the talk page is easier to read, because it is broken down by sub-heading. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Compare Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 November 7#Category:Suites where, after discussion, only the top category was moved to Category:Suites (music), while, indeed, listing the subcategories made it clear the renaming was ill-advised. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose since nobody has provided a convincing argument that the current categories are ambiguous. The only example given (Little Women) would never be called a composition and its author would never be called a composer, but a writer. Moreover, the proposed moves would result in clunky, redundant and misleading category names, as explained by Gerda and Francis. Neodop (talk) 10:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Neodop, did you read the nomination? The word "~~composer~~" "compositionis ambiguous, which is why it is a disambiguation page: see composition.

There will be no clunkiness or redundancy in the new titles, e.g. Category:1640 musical compositions or Category:Musical compositions by Michel van der Aa . --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:02, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The word "composer" is not ambiguous, and it is not a disambiguation page – @BrownHairedGirl: please stop the misrepresentations, and retract this ill-conceived massive proposal already: I've further explained why that is the best way forward on your talk page. Thanks. Please stop the time sink. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:18, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Francis Schonken, that was a typo, now corrected. The ambiguous word being disambiguated is "composition". My original comment correctly linked to the dab page composition, and your attempt to label my typo as a misrepresentation is disingenuous. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:C2D. ——SN 54129 12:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As sympathetic as I am to the intention of the renaming, Francis' argument is irrefutable: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) uses "Compositions ..." throughout its guidelines and examples. It's worth noting that it is quite specific in stating how lists should be named, for example A stand-alone list of a composer's compositions is titled "List of compositions by <composer name>". I can see nothing in Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates that suggests we should use different conventions for naming categories as we do for any other Wikipedia page.
The arguments that categories such as Category:Compositions by Michel van der Aa should be disambiguated by the prefix "Musical" is much weaker when we examine where the reader might actually encounter the category: either in a parent category such as Category:Compositions by composer, where there is no doubt that they are looking at musical compositions; or at the foot of an article such as One (opera), where again the reader is no doubt about the topic they are looking at. We should not be attempting to make exception to our MoS without very good reason, and I don't believe the supportors – especially those relying entirely on WP:C2D, which only concerns topic categories, not the set categories under discussion here – give good enough reasons to make an exception. --RexxS (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The last criterion in WP:C2D explicitly applies to set categories. Oculi (talk) 16:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please read more carefully: the last bullet point in C2D explicitly states "This criterion may also be used to rename a set category in the same circumstances, where the set is defined by a renamed topic" (my emphasis). That means that if we renamed the article Michael Nyman to Michael L Nyman, we would use C2D to speedy rename Category:Compositions by Michael Nyman to Category:Compositions by Michael L Nyman (i.e. to match the eponymous article). That's all C2D can be used for. In the proposed renamings, there are not 1,342 composers or years (or whatever defining item) that have been renamed, so C2D simply does not apply.

On the contrary, @RexxS, WP:NCM does not support either your position or that of Francis. Nowhere in NCM is there any explicit guidance to use "compositions" instead of "musical compositions" ... and of course NCM uses 'Compositions ...' in its guidelines because that page is explicitly about music, so the musical context is clear. However, note that it doesn't do so exclusively: there are 4 uses of "musical composition".

This is quote simple. If there was a consensus to use "compositions" instead of "musical compositions" for article or category titles, then that page would say so explicitly. Instead, you and Francis are trying to infer into the guideline something which it simply does not say.
I have looked through Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music) and its archives, and I can find no discussions anywhere of the question of "compositions"/"musical compositions". So the issue has not ben raised there, either on the face of the guideline page or in talk-page discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:50, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please observe WP:INDENTMIX; it is an accessibility requirement.

Are you going to badger everyone who disagrees with you, BHG? Can't you rely on the closer to judge who adduces the better arguments?
You are completely wrong about WP:NCM, which most definitely does support Francis' position every time "composition" is used in guidance or example. The four uses of "musical composition" are as follows:
Use "(instrumental)" or "(composition)" for instrumentals and non-lyrical musical compositions (excepting classical music). Note not Use "(instrumental)" or "(musical composition)".

If two or more musical compositions share the same title, and disambiguation is necessary: - necessary in that case to distinguish between two different kinds of composition that may share the same title.

If two or more musical compositions share their title but they are not of the same type, simple disambiguation may still be used, - as preceding.

Collaborative songs—those in which two (or more) performers release a musical composition together ... - necessary in that case to distinguish between cases where collaboration could exist in other kinds of composition.
Contrast those 4, which do not suggest that titling should use the phrase "musical composition" with the other 84 uses of the unadorned word "composition" in WP:NCM. Take special note of this guideline:
Only descriptive titles (including category names) would usually give the full name for any composer after "by" (List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach).
That guideline at WP:NCM couldn't be any clearer. It's stated in blue-and-white as Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, and not Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach. Your assertion that "Nowhere in NCM is there any explicit guidance to use "compositions" instead of "musical compositions" turns out be false. That page is part of the manual of style, which enjoys project-wide consensus, and it will take more than a local consensus here to overturn it. I'm sorry, but that makes this is an invalid proposal. CfD doesn't have the authority to overturn MoS. --RexxS (talk) 17:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is not convincing at all. In every of these instances the guideline makes a completely different point, unrelated to the issue at hand whether to use compositions or musical compositions. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:07, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
RexxS, you are simply inventing stuff. Please stop that.

There is no point in WP:NCM where it says "do not use musical compositions", or any words to that effect. If you wish to dispute this, please post the full paragraph which you believes contradicts me, and underline the words which you think are relevant. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl Please observe WP:INDENTMIX; it's an accessibility requirement.
You are wikilawyering and bludgeoning. That needs to stop.
WP:NCM is clear that the naming convention for music categories of compositions of composers is Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach.
Naming conventions which tell you how to name a page don't need to tell you how not to name a page, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
Find the naming convention that supports your choice of Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, or drop it. Your proposal is fatally flawed because it contradicts MoS guidelines on the basis of spurious reasoning. Withdraw it before you waste any more of the community's valuable time. --RexxS (talk) 22:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@RexxS, I am not wikilawyering. The only wikilawyering here is your attempts to misrepresent a guideline as saying something which it does not actually say, as a device to derail substantive discussion on the very simple matter of an ambiguous term in category titles.

On the contrary, I am challenging your false assertions. The only bludgeoning here is your attempt to mislead editors by repeatedly posting a false claim.

As I noted already, there is no point in WP:NCM where it says "do not use musical compositions", or any words to that effect. So I will ask you again: if you wish to dispute this, please post the full paragraph which you believes contradicts me, and underline the words which you think are relevant.

As Marcocaelle noted, the brief fragments which you did quote are about other matters, such as the use of full names. They are not about "compositions"/"musical compositions", and that fact that the example says "compositions" is not prescriptive, because that is is not the issue being addressed. As a comparator, and a guideline about naming of categories for Irish towns noted the use of disambiguators for towns which share a name with the county, and cited the example of Category:Buildings and structures in Monaghan (town) ... that would not establish a convention to use "Buildings and structures", because that is not the point being made.

And yes, I will keep this up until you either produce the evidence or withdraw the claim.

BTW, note that even your misrepresentations of the guideline do not support your opposition to renaming the by-year/by-decade/by-century categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you unable to comply with INDENTMIX? It's really thoughtless and unkind to screen reader users to continually change the type of list that is being used. Don't you care at all for the problems you cause for the disadvantaged?
You've made 20 posts to this section, and that is classic WP:BLUDGEON. Don't blame me when you get your wings clipped for it. This is a survey not a dialogue between you and the rest of the contributors.
Your assertions are the ones that are false.
I've clearly shown that the guideline at NCM states that categories of compositions of composers is Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach.
In contrast, you have abjectly failed to produce a single shed of evidence that any policy or guideline supports your choice of Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach.
No matter how much you DIDNTHEARTHAT, I produced a guideline that supports the status quo; and you have produced nothing to back your personal preference.
As Marcocaelle noted, the brief fragments which I quoted are about other matters, so that demolishes your prior attempt to read any significance to the four uses of the phrase. NCM contradicts your baseless assertions, no matter how much you try to minimise its overriding importance to this debate.
If you're interested in addressing wider categories, then please explain why you are proposing to rename Category:Compositions by composer to Category:Musical compositions by composer? How much redundancy are you trying to introduce and for what purpose? Surely even you can see that such a proposal simply won't fly? --RexxS (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see you're still demonstrating your disdain for those less fortunate, BHG. I'm glad you've found the section in NCM that specifically shows Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach. How about you finding one that shows Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach? And what about your proposed renaming of Category:Compositions by composer to Category:Musical compositions by composer? How are you going to defend that? --RexxS (talk) 23:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Northern Virginia politicians

Propose deleting Category:Northern Virginia politicians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Subcategorizing politicians by region of the state is overcategorizing. TM 17:27, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It's a culturally distinct region (together with Richmond and bits of Hampton Roads, they basically run the state and ignore the rest of us), but the problem is that it doesn't have precise boundaries. Is a delegate from Frederick County from Northern Virginia? (It's the northernmost county in the state, but "Northern Virginia normally doesn't mean that far west.) What about a senator from Spotsylvania County? It's far southeast of Frederick, but it's linked by Interstate 95 to Northern Virginia and basically a part of the metro area now. Same with politicians from Culpeper County, another fringe county. And finally, what about a politician who moves from Arlington County to Dickenson County (like that would ever happen); would we categorise him as being Northern Virginia or Southwestern Virginia, or both? Much better to split up the politicians by city or county, if we need to split them up. Nyttend (talk) 22:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Reform synagogues in West Virginia

Propose merging Category:Reform synagogues in West Virginia to Category:Synagogues in West Virginia

Nominator's rationale: Dual upmerge to ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Reform synagogues in the United States. Small category (2 articles) that is unlikely to substantially grow. TM 17:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Deaths from fire in June 2017

Propose deleting Category:Deaths from fire in June 2017 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: WP:NARROWCAT and there's no parent Deaths from fire in month, year categorization scheme. The category itself contains one structural fire, one wildfire, one explosion and one person, while Category:Deaths from fire is reserved for persons. Brandmeister^talk 16:29, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom, but add the one biography to Category:Deaths from fire. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:17, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Iranian songs

Propose deleting Category:Iranian songs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Redundant - Songs should be categorized after language and/or genre (and Iranian is not a language). Semsurî (talk) 16:03, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Term 'Iranian' can be misleading since it can be understood as the the pan-ethnic term or confused for Persians (which many believe Iranian is a synonym of). The category could be renamed "songs from/of Iran" but again not relevant. --Semsurî (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - the same rationale would apply to anything in Category:Songs by country. Oculi (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:LGBT members of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors

Propose merging Category:LGBT members of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors to Category:San Francisco Board of Supervisors members

Nominator's rationale: Dual upmerge to ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:LGBT city councillors from the United States, ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:LGBT history in San Francisco, and ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:LGBT people from the San Francisco Bay Area. This is an overly narrow triple intersection of municipality, sexual orientation, and political office. TM 15:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge. I don't understand the reason why these particular people should be singled out/categorised due to their sexual orientation or sex-gender parity. --Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 16:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Tank names

Propose deleting Category:Tank names (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: The existence of this category tree gives the impression that we have articles about the naming of tanks - we don't. What we have is 4 dab-like SIAs that are much better categorized in Category:Set indices on military vehicles. Note: These pages would probably be better as dabs because incoming links are mostly/all intended to be to a specific article, but that's a separate issue. DexDor^(talk) 14:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Those belong to relevant Category:Tanks by country subcats. Brandmeister^talk 16:36, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I haven't proposed upmerging to the tanks-of-country categories as the actual articles (e.g. Tiger II) are already in those categories and these pseudo-dabs don't need to be. DexDor^(talk) 18:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Municipalities of Negros (Philippines)

Propose deleting Category:Municipalities of Negros (Philippines) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Empty category of a defunct region. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 11:54, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment and trout slap for nominator. Per WP:CFD. @HueMan1: WP:CFD reads- "Except in uncontroversial cases such as reverting vandalism, do not amend or depopulate a category once it has been nominated at CfD as this hampers other editors' efforts to evaluate a category and participate in the discussion. The nominator depopulated the nominated category, here[5] and here[6]. I have since restored its two entries....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:18, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: @WilliamJE: But this is uncontroversial. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 13:11, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @HueMan1: But if something is defunct, the category sometimes gets renamed to label it as something defunct rather than deleted. I requested[7] administrator Liz to chime in. Let's abide by whatever she says. Ok?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Eponymous categories about Czech politicians

Propose deleting Category:Ivan Bartoš (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Jana Bobošíková (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Petr Fiala (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Vojtěch Filip (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Miroslav Grebeníček (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Miroslav Kalousek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Václav Klaus Jr. (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Miroslava Němcová (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Tomio Okamura (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:František Palacký (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Vladimír Remek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Karel Schwarzenberg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Miroslav Sládek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Jan Zahradil (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Lubomír Zaorálek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Jan Fischer (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Stanislav Gross (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Petr Nečas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Jiří Paroubek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Petr Pithart (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Jiří Rusnok (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Bohuslav Sobotka (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Vladimír Špidla (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Josef Tošovský (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary eponymous categories that do not pass WP:OCEPON. For instance, these categories have been populated by elections in which the politician was a candidate, works where they appear as a character, places they have been, parties or cabinets they have been a part of, battles they have fought etc., most often not central either to the biography or the event. Once purged of ineligible content, there would be too few articles to justify a category. @Bedivere.cs: courtesy pinging creator. Place Clichy (talk) 11:13, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe, WilliamJE, and Oculi: more categories were added after your vote, I therefore invite you to check if your answer is still the same. Place Clichy (talk) 16:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all per nom—I checked a few and they are correct that they violate guidelines. b uidhe 11:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reaffirming !vote after more categories were added. These all appear to be a similar case. b uidhe 16:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all per nominator....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:36, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all per nominator. Oculi (talk) 11:40, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More eponymous categories about Czech politicians

Propose deleting Category:Andrej Babiš (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Václav Klaus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Mirek Topolánek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Miloš Zeman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Klement Gottwald (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Edvard Beneš (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: These categories have comparatively more content than the first list above. They are listed separately to leave room for discussion about separate case-by-case outcome, as it is debatable in most cases if this content is indeed defining per our standards. E.g. the 1948 Czechoslovak coup d'état involved many actors besides Klement Gottwald, which is the only eponymous category for an individual featured in this article, but it would probably not make a good Wikipedia policy to add such a category for all the major actors involved in this event. In another example, I wonder if Je to na nás!, a demonstration against Andrej Babiš, is worth placing in a Category:Andrej Babiš. For these reasons I also believe that they do not pass the criteria set in the WP:OCEPON guideline. Place Clichy (talk) 16:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jewish beverages

Propose deleting Category:Jewish beverages (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only 2 articles. No other religious beverages categories and these seem sufficiently categorised already. Rathfelder (talk) 10:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Yemenite Jewish cuisine

Propose deleting Category:Yemenite Jewish cuisine (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only 1 article Rathfelder (talk) 10:50, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Television series created by Emily Spivey

Propose deleting Category:Television series created by Emily Spivey (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: only 1 article Rathfelder (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - part of Category:Television series by creator. The creator of a TV series is self-evidently a defining characteristic. Oculi (talk) 12:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Herbert Baker

Propose renaming Category:Herbert Baker to Category:Herbert Baker buildings

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCEPON. Contains only 2 articles about buildings by this South African architect. Place Clichy (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Paul Kruger

Propose deleting Category:Paul Kruger (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:OCEPON and WP:SHAREDNAME. Category contains a mixture of unrelated or loosely related articles (such as Clarens, Switzerland) and things named after Kruger (Krugersdorp). Child Category:Cultural depictions of Paul Kruger‎ is not affected by this nomination. Place Clichy (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:TV memes

Propose deleting Category:TV memes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Defined as "TV shows that became Internet memes." Too subjective to form the basis of a category. Only 1 article. Rathfelder (talk) 09:28, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete — per nom rationale. N2e (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jewish confections

Propose merging Category:Jewish confections to Category:Jewish cuisine‎

Nominator's rationale: No other ethnic confectionary categories. Rathfelder (talk) 09:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Books by Leszek Kołakowski

Propose deleting Category:Books by Leszek Kołakowski (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only 1. He wrote quite a lot, but in Polish and no sign of any articles about his other books. Rathfelder (talk) 08:58, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. You know, I used to think exactly the same way you do about categories like this. So I nominated Category:Books by Tom O'Carroll for deletion. Feel free to review the discussion here. It was short, resulting in a quick decision to keep the category. Same exact issues apply here. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 09:39, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - per WP:SMALLCAT, the 'unless' clause, and 100s of similar cfds. Rathfelder should pay more attention. Oculi (talk) 11:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Films about struggles

Propose deleting Category:Films about struggles (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only one article. Undefined and uncategorised. Rathfelder (talk) 08:33, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Metal bands with Lord of the Rings names

Propose deleting Category:Metal bands with Lord of the Rings names (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Undefining association Rathfelder (talk) 08:18, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, per nom rationale. N2e (talk) 13:58, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Classic WP:SHAREDNAME violation. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Boeing spacecraft and space launch systems

Propose renaming Category:Boeing spacecraft and space launch systems to Category:Boeing spacecraft and launch vehicles

Nominator's rationale: The latter one is more WP:CONCISE. Soumyabrata (talk • subpages) 05:17, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, as although it is more concise, it is quite simply not correct to refer, for example, to a Delta IV rocket as a space vehicle, as only the second stage is ever a space vehicle, and then briefly for only a few hours, and then often just becomes space debris as a derelict rocket stage (but only the 2nd stage; not the entirel "Delta IV") is often left in orbit long term by its launch service provider (ULA) with full support of its customer (USAF). A second example: it is not the case that the Vandenberg Air Force Base Space Launch Complex 6 is a "space vehicle." Now one could remove those sorts of articles, and create some new subcategories for Boeing... ; but that's not the current proposal. Cheers. N2e (talk) 13:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per N2e; concision is better when shorter and longer phrases have the same meaning, but when they have distinctly different meanings, you have to use a longer category name if you want a bigger scope. Nyttend (talk) 22:58, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – I have changed my mind. See above. --Soumyabrata ^{wash your hands} _{to protect from coronavirus} 09:14, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I still say keep, based on N2e's reference to the Vandenberg complex. It's a Boeing system, but it's not a Boeing space vehicle. Nyttend (talk) 23:50, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category:United Launch Alliance space launch vehicles

Propose renaming Category:United Launch Alliance space launch vehicles to Category:ULA launch vehicles

Nominator's rationale: The latter one is more WP:CONCISE. Soumyabrata (talk • subpages) 05:10, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - article is United Launch Alliance, as is ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:United Launch Alliance. Oculi (talk) 08:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep—the category is a helpful subcat of "All things United Launch Alliance", and includes just those half-dozen or so that are "space launch vehicles". This allows the supercat, Category:United Launch Alliance to include all the many other things that are ULA but not space launch vehicles, like advanced 2nd stage concepts, and ULA people, and ULA facilities, etc. Cheers. N2e (talk) 13:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – The category is a subcat of Category:United Launch Alliance. Therefore, a concise title might be emerged. --Soumyabrata ^{wash your hands} _{to protect from coronavirus} 09:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 146: / Line 146: @@
 *::::::BTW, note that even your misrepresentations of the guideline do not support your opposition to renaming the by-year/by-decade/by-century categories. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 21:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 *::::::: Why are you unable to comply with INDENTMIX? It's really thoughtless and unkind to screen reader users to continually change the type of list that is being used. Don't you care at all for the problems you cause for the disadvantaged? {{pb}} You've made 20 posts to this section, and that is classic [[WP:BLUDGEON]]. Don't blame me when you get your wings clipped for it. This is a survey not a dialogue between you and the rest of the contributors. {{pb}} Your assertions are the ones that are false. {{pb}} I've clearly shown that the guideline at NCM states that categories of compositions of composers is [[:Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach]]. {{pb}} In contrast, you have abjectly failed to produce a single shed of evidence that any policy or guideline supports your choice of [[:Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach]]. {{pb}} No matter how much you DIDNTHEARTHAT, I produced a guideline that supports the status quo; and you have produced nothing to back your personal preference. {{pb}} As Marcocaelle noted, the brief fragments which I quoted are about other matters, so that demolishes your prior attempt to read any significance to the four uses of the phrase. NCM contradicts your baseless assertions, no matter how much you try to minimise its overriding importance to this debate. {{pb}} If you're interested in addressing wider categories, then please explain why you are proposing to rename [[:Category:Compositions by composer]] to [[:Category:Musical compositions by composer]]? How much redundancy are you trying to introduce and for what purpose? Surely even you can see that such a proposal simply won't fly? --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 22:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
+*:::::::::: I see you're still demonstrating your disdain for those less fortunate, BHG. I'm glad you've found the section in NCM that specifically shows [[:Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach]]. How about you finding one that shows [[:Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach]]? And what about your proposed renaming of [[:Category:Compositions by composer]] to [[:Category:Musical compositions by composer]]? How are you going to defend that? --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 23:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
-::::::::*Lots of words, [[User:RexxS|RexxS]] but still no sign of you quoting the paragraph which supports your interpretation.  You seem to have DIDNTHEARTHAT problem with my repeated requests to quote the relevant para.
-:::::::::And don't try that cheap trick of claiming that "musical&nbsp;compositions" is my {{tq|personal preference|q=y}}, as if it's something I made up.  As you will know from the nomination (which I assume you actually read), I have proposed it because it is the unambiguous term, per the dab page [[composition]].
-:::::::::'''If the guideline prescribed what you claim it prescribe, then you could quote the paragraph'''.  You haven't posted it, because it doesn't exist ... and the more you make assertions without quotes, the more you underline the fact that it doesn't exist.
-:::::::::Since you won't quote the passage which supports your claim (because it doesn't exist), let me quote for you in full the only paragraph which mentions of [[WP:NCM]] which mentions [[:Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach]].  Note that it appears under the sub-heading "Disambiguate by last name only?"
-<blockquote style="display:block;margin-left:10em; padding:1em; border:2px solid brown; {{border-radius|10px}}; background-color:#FFFFE0"}}>Only when period, style, way of naming compositions etc can be confusing the added first name can give additional clarity, e.g. [[Requiem (Michael Haydn)]]. A particular example of this is [[Johann Sebastian Bach]] and his many composing namesakes. Conventionally J.&nbsp;S.&nbsp;Bach's compositions would be the primary topic in any genre, i.e. without disambiguating term (''[[Brandenburg Concertos]]'') if not needed, and disambiguated or serialized by BWV number ([[Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, BWV 582]]) or (Bach) parenthetical disambiguating term ([[Orchestral suites (Bach)]]). Only descriptive titles (including category names) would usually give the full name for any composer after "by" ([[List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach]], [[:Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach]]). For the other Bachs, if parenthetical disambiguation by name of the composer is needed: add the initials (with periods and spaces) in the parenthesis:</blockquote>
-:::::::::As anyone can see, this para is all about when to disambiguate ambiguous surnames.  It is very clear ''not'' giving about whether to use "compositions" or "musical&nbsp;compositions" ... and no amount of bluster and assertion by you can alter what the guideline actually says.  Please stop making things up to suit your purpose, and do try to focus on the fact that [[composition]] is a highly ambiguous word. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="font-variant:small-caps"><span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl</span>]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 23:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 ==== Category:Northern Virginia politicians ====