Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 23:48, 9 June 2021

Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

Shortcut

WP:RD/H

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

June 1

Same Art Acevedo in Miami, FL?

I came across an article about the Miami Police Chief Art Acevedo and wanted to know more about him. So I found the Wikipedia page about his life, career, etc. All fine, but the citations of his employment at various police departments never mentioned why he left. Apparently he spent decades with the California Highway Patrol (CHP) and left there to head up the police in Austin, TX, then left there to be chief in Houston, TX, then left there to head up the Miami, FL police department. All of this seems like a lot of moving around for a police chief - just my opinion, maybe it's common?? I've personally known two police chiefs (of different locales) and neither did the kind of department hopping that Chief Acevedo did. Again, maybe it's my limited experience in these matters. Anyhow, in my quest for 'why' Chief Acevedo might have left various departments, I came across this article about a police officer named Art Acevedo in Muskogee, OK. See https://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/supreme-court/1995/4151-1.html. So, to sum up, I'm wondering if the Art Acevedo mentioned in the law article is the same man as the Police Chief in Miami, FL. Thanks in advance.

Courtesy link: Art Acevedo. --Lambiam 11:10, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For a rank and file police officer, moving around departments would be unusual. However, for top leadership positions in police departments in large American cities, it's common to look for outside candidates, especially when there is a perception that important reforms are needed. Just to cite two examples taken from fiction that reflect this, Jonathan Franzen's novel The Twenty-Seventh City is about the city of St. Louis hiring a woman from India to be the new police chief (the fact she's from India is considered unusual, not the fact she did not come from within the city's police ranks), or the TV Series Tommy, which features a woman becoming the Los Angeles police chief, coming from New York, as there are no qualified female candidates within the ranks. This article from the Miami Herald [1] states that Acevedo did not seek out the Miami position, but was head-hunted by an outside firm. The fact that he is of Hispanic background and headed the police forces in two large cities with very large Hispanic communities that have been significantly under-represented in the police ranks before getting the Miami job is certainly not a coincidence. It is unlikely that there is a huge basin of eligible candidates of Hispanic origin with relevant experience from which large cities can hire top police executives. Xuxl (talk) 12:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK, it is seems to be almost a requirement that very senior officers have served in different parts of the country. A quick look at List of Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police shows that all of the 18 office holders in the last 60 years had previously held senior appointments in other police forces before moving to the top job in London. Alansplodge (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 2

Rap singers' short lives

Rap singers seem to have extraordinarily short lifespans, often dying in their 20s. What could account for this? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:09, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are strong connections between rap culture and violence, guns, gangs and drugs. --Viennese Waltz 08:38, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity, Jack, did you get this from your personal impression, or does it have something to do with this graph shown in The Conversation's article "Music to die for: how genre affects popular musicians’ life expectancy"? Regarding the latter, it has some flaws, particularly that the given "average age at death" doesn't include those musicians who are still alive, and whose age at death isn't known. This, of course, affects young genres such as rap, hip hop, even metal and punk to a much stronger degree than the genres on the graph's left (blues, jazz, country, ...). See also "Case Study: Musicians and mortality" in Calling Bullshit. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:53, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just my personal impression. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:53, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just rappers who die young. Amy Winehouse, for example. The stickier question is whether those younger deaths are statistically significant. The graph cited above suggests so, but maybe more data is needed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:22, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The graph above only falsely suggests so, because just about all living rappers (who form the vast majority of rappers) haven't even reached the age of average life expectancy yet and are not included in the calculation, unlike with genres that have existed for more than 50 years and which do include a significant number of musicians who died at an age far closer to (and even above) average life expectancy. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:31, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The only correct answer to this question is in the third word of Jack's question, which is "seem". We can't reliably answer why things seem to you, Jack. That's the internal workings of your own mind, and we cannot diagnose those. See also cognitive bias for the only reasonable answer to your question; as to the answers provided by others regarding the methodology of any putative studies on the matter, they also speak for themselves. --Jayron 32 16:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

27 club might be relevant. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As usual my answer (which I thought was quite good) gets drowned out by those of others. I would have thought it was self-evident that the main reason why many rappers die young is that their lives are intertwined with gang culture, drugs & guns in a way that the lives of, say, classical musicians and progressive rock musicians are not. --Viennese Waltz 17:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with your answer is do you know that rappers actually die younger? There's no point in providing an explanation for a proposition which itself has not been established as true, plurium interrogationum and all of that. How can you answer "why?" to a question where you don't even know if the thing you're explaining is actually true? --Jayron 32 18:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, more to the point, you didn't provide any references for your answer. You provided no extra reading or anything. This is not the "tell other people what I think is true" desk. This is the reference desk. Provide a reference. --Jayron 32 18:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You want a reference? OK. Rappers who died under 30 from violent and/or drug-related deaths: Lil Peep, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Pimp C, Eyedea, Mac Miller, Keef Cowboy, Juice Wrld, Tupac Shakur, The Notorious B.I.G, Proof, Mac Dre, Fat Pat, Half a Mill, Seagram, Big Hawk, Huey, Bugz, VL Mike, Dolla, The Jacka, Nipsey Hussle, Lil Phat, Doe B, Soulja Slim, Bankroll Fresh, Young Greatness, 3-2, Pop Smoke, King Von. Classical musicians who died under 30 from violent and/or drug-related deaths: none. Hope that helps, --Viennese Waltz 19:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a reference. That's a list. I can create a list of equal length of people who performed other genres of music who also died before 30. We need a reference, which is to say a citation, link, etc. where we can read where someone actually did a study or something reliable that is actual evidence. Naming a list of cherry-picked dead people helps no one. An actual, scholarly, reliable, published study where the proposition that rappers die younger than other musicians is verified in some way. That's what we need. --Jayron 32 19:55, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a 2016 study that looks to have a better methodology than the Conversation article reported above. Life Expectancy and Cause of Death in Popular Musicians. The researchers compared mortality of musicians to mortality in “demographically matched populations”. From the abstract: “Results showed that popular musicians have shortened life expectancy compared with comparable general populations…. Mortality impacts differed by music genre. In particular, excess suicides and liver-related disease were observed in country, metal, and rock musicians; excess homicides were observed in 6 of the 14 genres, in particular hip hop and rap musicians. For accidental death, actual deaths significantly exceeded expected deaths for country, folk, jazz, metal, pop, punk,and rock.” The paper doesn’t proffer definitive reasons, saying “we can only speculate about the potential causes of these results. It is likely to be a combination of factors inherent in the popular music industry and the vulnerability from either constitutional factors or adverse childhood experiences that many young musicians bring with them into their profession.” 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As a list, VW's data isn't particularly accurate. For example, Ol' Dirty Bastard died at 35, Pimp C at 33, Proof at 32, Mac Dre at 34, Half a Mill at 30, Big Hawk at 36, Huey at 32, and V L Mike at 32. No mention of Jacqueline du Pré, who had to stop performing at 28 and died at 42. BTW 100s of 1000s of rappers who are over 30 are still alive. 1960s and 1970s several young rock and roll stars died but 1000s and 1000s lived. For proof just watch any years induction ceremony at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. MarnetteD|Talk 22:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While it is certainly true that there is a notable correlation between the top performing artists and shorter lifespan, there are too many factors at work to point to one single cause. It may be, for example, that some artists go into the creative arts driven by an emotionally turbulent childhood, broken homes, underlying mental illnesses, and a propensity towards self-medication with alcohol and drugs, all of which feeds back into their creative process and directly, perhaps making them even more vulnerable to abusive control by music industry representatives, and subject to increasing interpersonal instability in their relationships, both personal and business-related. Further, we know that the popular music industry has a historical relationship with organized crime of one kind or another, and that entertainers in general tend to be socially isolated for reasons of safety and control. Add to that the nature of violent "beefs" and manufactured outrage and controversy, and you get a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. At the end of the day, being a popular entertainer is often directly opposed to having a safe and healthy lifestyle, so the limited longevity of artists at the top isn't that surprising. Viriditas (talk) 21:11, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but did you mean "isn't that surprising"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:02, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. One of the hazards of posting from a cell phone. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That point was made before:

...It could be argued that the mortality is related to "class", rather than music. - 92.8.151.169 21:03, 2 June 2021

MarnetteD didn't pick up all the errors: The Jackie died at 37, Young Greatness at 34 and 3-2 at 44. Hence the reference to Jacqueline du Pré I guess. 77.102.184.207 (talk) 10:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish curricula

Greetings,

@ Draft:Avret Esir Pazarları (The draft under development specially focused on Ottoman times state of non-elite common women slavery) section Coverage of (female) slavery in modern Turkish textbooks Up til now we could get reference of Avarogullari's paper online but other experienced English Wikipedia users suggest to include more referenced content, preferably references from properly peer reviewed credible journals.

Dr. Eray Alaca seems to be authority on studies in Turkish history textbooks, but writings referred by him are likely to be in Turkish. Can some one with knowledge of Turkish help out section Coverage of (female) slavery in modern Turkish textbooks.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Grover Cleveland's narrow New York victory margin in 1884

Why did Grover Cleveland win New York by such a narrow margin in 1884? Between 1882 and 1891, Democrats won almost every single statewide election in New York, and they always or almost always did so by significantly larger margins than the 0.10% (slightly over 1,000 votes) that Grover Cleveland defeated James G. Blaine in New York by in 1884. 68.228.73.154 (talk) 19:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tammany Hall hated him. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 22:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) This article 1884 United States presidential election in New York mentions that the Tammany Hall political machine set itself against Cleveland and that will have been at least part of the reason for the narrow margin. MarnetteD|Talk 22:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did Tammany Hall actually prefer Blaine, though? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 23:50, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They would have preferred anyone to Cleveland. As noted in his article, much of his time as Governor of New York was spent fighting Tammany Hall; as someone from Buffalo, he was seen as an outsider messing around in New York City politics, and that was something they couldn't stand for. --Jayron 32 11:18, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why was he hurt less by this in 1892, then? He won New York in 1892 by 3%, as opposed to just 0.1% in 1884. 68.228.73.154 (talk) 18:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When was Railroad available from Mexico City area to connect with US border.

Resolved

When did railroads exist which would connect Railroads from Mexico City to the US border? Also, did this connect to the US Railroad network?

(I looking for this info as part of trying to estimate when a railroad from Mexico City to the Salt Lake Valley would be created in an Alternate Timeline where either the Mexican kept Texas or lost the Republic of Texas but didn't have the Mexican American war. (A Mexican Victory in the Mexican American war is just took much)).Naraht (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Naraht, Rail_transport_in_Mexico#History may be useful. It mentions construction of the Mexican Central Railroad to El Paso in the 1880s and Mexican Central Railway gives the exact date: opened in March 1884, along with a mention of connections right away to at El Paso to the Southern Pacific Railroad, Texas and Pacific Railway, and Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, the March 1884 date is *exactly* what I was looking for.Naraht (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which is the best Bible translation that I should read?

I usually prefer the NIV, which I feel like is "the Google of Bible translations." However, which Bible translation do you think is the best one to read? Should I opt for one that is more literal or more "plain English"? Thanks! Félix An (talk) 22:38, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on what you mean by "best". The Authorized Version is the most influential, linguistically and culturally, in the Anglosphere. For the psalms go to the Book of Common Prayer. DuncanHill (talk) 22:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I like King James for liturgy (it is great poetry) and more modern translations for study. Blueboar (talk) 23:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why must this be 1 or the other? You can try both. You can do both and look at the changes between the 2. For example, there might be cases where the KJV says the earth cannot be moved, and the NIV says the earth cannot be shaken. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 00:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]

It depends on a few things such as your faith and your purpose. I am Catholic, and we use the RSV-2CE for study, as it holds to a more formal equivalence style. For the sacred liturgy, we use the NABRE which is a dynamic equivalence.

Are you Catholic? Protestant? Orthodox? Evangelical? Do you read the footnotes? Are you proficient in Greek or Hebrew, or would you like to learn? Do you want to study Sacred Scripture, or have dramatic readings, or a personal Lectio Divina? Elizium23 (talk) 07:55, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the whole, I have found the New World Translation published by the Watch Tower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses) very true to the literal original text - which may occasionally be detrimental to understanding idioms in the source language that are not preserved by literal translation. (For criticism of this translation, see New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures § Critical review; most of the issues mentioned there, such as translating the NT uses of stauro'*s by "torture stake", do not bother me personally – the evidence for the historical use of a T-shape for such executions is thin.) For a pleasant read, the NIV is much better, but for a critical study, I can recommend consulting these two translations together. --Lambiam 09:54, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If they put forward the false claim that God's name is "Jehovah", beware. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 10:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball Bugs, what's 'false' about it? It's just an imperfect transliteration/reconstruction. Elizium23 (talk) 10:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the Hebrew Bible, the consonantal letters YHWH of the Tetragrammaton have the vowel points of "Adonai" inserted in them in order to remind liturgical readers of the text that the written letters YHWH were pronounced out loud as "Adonai". This is a technical device known as "Q're Perpetuum". Unfortunately some Medieval/Renaisance Christians, lacking knowledge of Jewish scribal conventions, interpreted the consonants and vowels together, producing the garbled gibberish form "Yehowah" (or "Jehovah" in Latin). The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2nd. edition) edited by F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingstone (1978) ISBN 0-19-211545-6, p. 1354 explains this as "the bastard word 'Jehovah' obtained by fusing the vowels of the one word with the consonants of the other". AnonMoos (talk) 10:52, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

AnonMoos, so perhaps it is 'garbled gibberish' but it is not 'false'; it is simply not anything a modern scholar would use as the Name of God. Elizium23 (talk) 11:04, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is something which has never occurred in Hebrew as preserved by Jews (i.e. a pronunciation never used by Jews), and was created BY MISTAKE by Christians who misunderstood certain Jewish conventions. I'm probably not very typical (since I have a detailed knowledge of some ancient Hebrew topics), but I find it very strange bordering on bizarre to have a blatant mistake in the name of a religious group (as if you named your group "The Church of Jebus Christ")... AnonMoos (talk) 11:24, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, though, neither is the name "Jesus", a name he would not have recognized had you called him out by it. He would have been known as Yeshua, Yeshu, or Yehoshua (Aramaic, 1st Century AD Hebrew, and Old Testament Hebrew respectively). Jesus is a much more modern rendering of the name, and it takes several games of chinese whispers to get it to the modern name. His name, when transliterated into the Koine Greek that the New Testament was written in is Ἰησοῦς 'Iesous' because of issues with certain linguistic differences between Greek and Aramaic. This moves to Latin as Iesus, and the hard "J" sound probably predated the spelling change (i.e. the pronunciation Jesus predates the invention of J). I'm pretty sure that, at the time, his name would not have been distinct from, say, Joshua of the Old Testament, and the difference is really only preserved in more modern translations (relatively speaking). The names in, say, the original Greek New Testament and the Septuagint would have been the same. --Jayron 32 15:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jayron32 -- The English word "Jesus" derives from the late centuries B.C. / 1st century A.D. Hebrew or Aramaic name Yēšūʕ by a series of minimal changes in borrowing (i.e. an adaptation of the form of the name in language A into language B which is as close as practically possible, while taking into account the structural differences between languages A and B), plus legitimate historical sound changes within a particular language which also affected all such sounds in similar contexts (i.e. following Neogrammarian principles). There was simply NO mistake anywhere along this (admittedly complex) linguistic path, in the way that "Jehovah" derives from a mistake of mixing the consonants of one word with the vowels of another word. If you want to see a form of the name "Jesus" with a strange mistake, the Qur'anic form of the name of Jesus ʕīsā has moved the voiced pharyngeal consonant around from the end of the name to the beginning! (Arabic-speaking Christians usually prefer the form Yasūʕ without this unexplained metamorphosis.)

In any case, ancient Hebrew Yēšūʕ ישוע (rendered into modern English in different contexts as "Jeshua" and "Jesus") was a shorter post-Exilic version of the name Yǝhōshūʕ יהושע or "Joshua", and occurs in over 25 Hebrew Bible verses, starting with Ezra 2:2 (and also in the Aramaic-language Bible verse Ezra 5:2). In the Greek texts of the Septuagint, Josephus, New Testament etc., the names Jesus/Jeshua and Joshua all appear as Ιηsους (see Acts 7:45, Hebrews 4:8). AnonMoos (talk) 16:34, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lambiam -- the New World Translation "a god" in John 1:1 is simply flat out wrong according to just about every respectable non-JW scholar of ancient Greek, and that translation also inserts into the New Testament the bogus form "Jehovah"[sic] which never even occurred in the Hebrew of the Old Testament, much less the Greek of the New... AnonMoos (talk) 10:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So I wrote "most of the issues mentioned there"; some things do bother me, like the inane use of "Jehovah". But I think "a god" is a defensible translation. Note that the unusual absence of an article in Ἐν ἀρχῇ echoes the equally unusual absence seen in בְּרֵאשִׁית‎. After πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, the absence of an article in θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος feels significant. John 1:1 in English versions mentions at least some non-JW scholars and scholarly translations that are in agreement, and I think they are respectable enough. --Lambiam 23:43, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the detailed knowledge to debate this personally (what I do know applies more to epic Homeric Greek than to New Testament Greek), but I still think that minimally defensible is quite different from realistically plausible. AnonMoos (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would avoid the NIV. Its priorities are with the doctrine of its translators, not faithfulness to the texts. I haven't read this article in a while, but their articles are quite good in general: https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/articles-and-resources/deliberate-mistranslation-in-the-new-international-version-niv/ A good place to ask your question would be at reddit.com/r/academicbiblical. Temerarius (talk) 20:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the thing. Last NIV I read, said the authors who translated, were not any specific Christian denomination. If I recall, they were from multiple faith denominations. So their specialty was being fluent in the 2 languages. Now, whether or not any of the translators were non-believers, is something I wonder, and if so, I doubt if they would ever admit that. Any if all the NIV translators were of a particular denomination, 1 could argue bias in the translation. As far as I know, most pastors prefer studying the King James version, even if they themselves preach using the NIV version. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 22:17, 3 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Blueboar, I asked a biblical scholar whose opinion I trust, and he recommends the Holman Christian Standard Bible and the New Revised Standard Edition. Temerarius (talk) 05:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As noted at New International Version, the translators were exclusively from the evangelical Christianity tradition, and were NOT from a broad range of other Christian traditions, even within Protestantism. This is not a criticism from outside, this is directly from the NIV itself, see their own website: In 1965, a cross-denominational gathering of evangelical scholars...one year later, their decision was endorsed by a gathering of 80 evangelical ministry leaders and scholars (bold mine). The NIV was translated specifically to adhere to a particular strain of Christianity, and when translation decisions had to be made where the text seemed to conflict with their existing theology, they went with their theology over the original languages in many cases. Rather notably, they harmonized the double creation narrative in Genesis (that is, the first creation story in Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 and the second creation story, with a different chronology that begins at Genesis 2:4) by introducing verb tenses in the second narrative that do not exist in the original languages. This makes it appear in the NIV that the second story is referring back to events already mentioned in the first one; whereas in the original languages that meaning is unambiguously wrong. There are lots of other problems with the NIV that pop up all the time where the original languages are in conflict with some standard point of Evangelical theology, and they bend the text to fit their narrative. It's really not great for those reasons. As noted above, both the Holman Christian Standard Bible and the New Revised Standard Version are much better translations; they work harder to maintain the original language's usage and meaning, and they were written by a much wider swath of scholars from a wider breadth of Christianity. The NRSV in particular was written under the aegis of the National Council of Churches, which has membership from just about every significant branch of Christianity, including Catholic, Orthodox, mainline Protestant, and evangelical. --Jayron 32 14:20, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be confused by the modern American Evangelicals who associate with the Trump movement. Evangelical is a ill-defined term for a vague grouping. From the Preface to the the NIV: "The fact that participants from the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand worked together gave the project its international scope. That they were from many denominations—including Anglican, Assemblies of God, Baptist, Brethren, Christian Reformed, Church of Christ, Evangelical Free, Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Nazarene, Presbyterian, Wesleyan and other churches—helped to safeguard the translation from sectarian bias." [2] Rmhermen (talk) 22:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any translations by non-Christians? A translation by exclusively Christians seems to me to be just as suspect in its own way as ones by exclusively Evangelicals, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Jehovals, or whatever, are in theirs? DuncanHill (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DuncanHill, suspect? A translation of a Christian book by a non-believer is worthless. I would say any non-Christian Bible translation would be the suspect ones. Elizium23 (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Elizium23: "A translation of a Christian book by a non-believer is worthless" - on what grounds? Would you say the same about Jewish, Hindu, Moslem, etc, books? Does this extend to Apocrypha or Commentaries, or is it confined to Canonical works, and who decides what is canonical or who is a believer? Are translations by Christians of works about disbelief equally worthless to you? DuncanHill (talk) 14:41, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, more or less, yes. Why would a Christian translate the Quran? Elizium23 (talk) 14:43, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why wouldn't they? DuncanHill (talk) 14:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anyhoo, Elizium is, of course, way off base here: One's belief in a particular religion has no effect (in one way or the other) with one's ability to translate text from one language to another. this thread from Stack Exchange seems to answer Duncan's question sufficiently. That thread indicates that the Society of Biblical Literature, a secular organization with no religious connections whatsoever (no idea on the individual conscience of any singular members they may have; they may or may not believe in any religion themselves) has a translation. There are also other options mentioned in that thread. --Jayron 32 15:22, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Jayron32:, that looks helpful. DuncanHill (talk) 15:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Living Torah and Nach or the Leeser Bible were translated by non-Christians, e.g. See also Jewish English Bible translations. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:46, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sluzzelin, Jewish translations of the Hebrew Scriptures are all well and good, but given the Christian understanding of typology shared between the Testaments, it stands to reason that translations by Christians are the translations par excellence. Elizium23 (talk) 14:49, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the what now? Bible translators with an ideological bent have been an impediment to biblical literacy and scholarship among non-academics since... probably the Vulgate. A lotta Phaetons who seem to think that it wasn't quite divinely inspired enough to translate honestly. Anyway and by the way, there's a translation in progress of Wikimedia's own here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Bible I haven't read much of it, but the parts I read I thought were good. Temerarius (talk) 19:10, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's very similar to concerns over Cultural appropriation. Anyway, the early Qur'an translations into European languages were necessarily done by Christians, since very few Muslims were fluent in those languages (certainly not in the lofty literary style felt suitable for sacred texts), and many pious Muslims were not too enthusiastic about the idea of Qur'an translation in the first place... AnonMoos (talk) 19:17, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

side issue

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

— I wrote, “Belief in one superstition or another is irrelevant to the ability to translate among languages. Insisting that such a belief is necessary is simple bigotry.” Elizium23 removed my comment, not once but twice. This is simply not the way we do thing here. DOR (HK) (talk) 14:48, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elizium23 called it a "personal attack", which I don't see. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:52, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's obvious that you're the bigot here, if you're so hell-bent on forcing in your ridiculous and off-topic opinion to this discussion. Elizium23 (talk) 15:27, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's one person here trying to censor comments they don't like on religious grounds, and it's not DOR (HK). DuncanHill (talk) 15:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPA Elizium23 (talk) 15:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's kind of a snippy comment, but it's not a personal attack. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:40, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elizium, what you're getting into now is not a good look for you. And you don't delete other people's posts around here except under special circumstances. Temerarius (talk) 23:03, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A quick look at his edit history suggests he's abusing the rollback privilege in various places. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:21, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball Bugs, I suggest that you provide diffs before I decide you are also being incivil about this matter. The way you have misinterpreted policy to accuse me is not a good look for you. Elizium23 (talk) 00:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You're flirting with disaster. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:11, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball Bugs, au contraire, I am defending myself against your patently false accusations. I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with WP:PAG before throwing around public accusations. Elizium23 (talk) 01:20, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You still need to explain how DOR's comment somehow constitutes a "personal" attack. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:24, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the several editors who have spoken out on this issue. We do not, with very rare exceptions, delete other editors' posts in the Reference Desk. Those exceptions are for personal attacks -- which my original post clearly was not -- or what might be termed hate crimes in another context. What we do not tolerate is intolerance for different views. DOR (HK) (talk) 15:48, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DOR (HK), intolerance, such as saying "Insisting that such a belief is necessary is simple bigotry."? That seems mighty intolerant to me from where I sit. Elizium23 (talk) 15:50, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See paradox of tolerance. I believe the section(s) discussing whether it was a personal attack or not can be hatted or moved to the talk page, as they don't really help answer the OP's question. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 3

False claims of election fraud

In some countries, false claims of election fraud are used to undermine legitimate elections. Examples would be Donald Trump in the 2020 USA presidential election and the 2021 coup in Myanmar.

What is this phenomenon called? I am looking for more information and examples on Wikipedia, but could not find.

Disloyal opposition? ---Sluzzelin talk 08:44, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's something at Delegitimisation (which is currently inconsistent between UK and US spellings, though "z" is also used in the UK -- see Oxford spelling)... AnonMoos (talk) 11:14, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

AnonMoos, I added that something to the "Delegitimisation" article because someone at the Help Desk pointed me to that article. But it got deleted. I think no point contributing it to Wikipedia when I am just looking for more information about this, not an expert. -- 14:21, 4 June 2021 219.74.217.15

UK legislation formatting...

Hi..

In order to potentially write a style guide for Wikisource, I am after a link, or document name as to what the official style guide for drafting or typsetting UK legislation is (or was historically.)

Amongst the things I want to resolve are the indentation and text formatting of various paragraphs, clauses and divisions, and subdivisions in General Acts, and the layout used for side-headings and marginal citations on older works ( such as whether they appear on the left or right.).

Ideally, what I'd like a links/citations to actual doduments as opposed to a lengthy discussion. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are almost certainly aware of this, but recent UK legislation is online at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ - there's a plethora of example Acts there.--Phil Holmes (talk) 14:04, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Guide To Revised Legislation has a section called "Presentation of Text" (p. 21/27). Alansplodge (talk) 18:43, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 4

Henriette de Robespierre (1761-1780)

Maximilien, Charlotte and Augustin de Robespierre were all revolutionaries until their deaths, 1794 and 1834. Their sister Henriette was died in Arras on March 25, 1780, nine years before the revolution. What was her relationship with their brothers, and had their same political views? --Trottapiano (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Following the death of her mother, she was separated from her brothers at the age of four or five to be brought up by aunts. At the age of six or seven, she was sent to a convent school in Tournai and was still there when she died. [3] It seems unlikely that she would have had any exposure to political ideas, or much (if any) contact with her brothers. Alansplodge (talk) 10:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but can you search more for political ideas? --Trottapiano (talk) 10:46, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If this teenager had held any un-convent-ional political ideas (and they had not been suppressed by the nuns but been preserved in the historical record), then surely this would have been noted, not only for its curiosity value, but also because the revelation would have caused strong ripples when, inevitably, thrown into the nature versus nurture debate. --Lambiam 11:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but if you could find something, please white it on my talk page. --Trottapiano (talk) 11:28, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How would you see it, against the white background? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm only interested to know if Henriette was different from her brothers and sister. Please, someone can help me? --Trottapiano (talk) 12:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Trottapiano, Bugs was merely joking about your typo ("white" instead of "write") but meant no harm. It's a tough one, because Henriette died so early (most of what we know about her sister Charlotte, e.g., happened during Charlotte's adult life. I tried French sources too, but haven't been able to find much beyond what's written in Alansplodge's link yet. I'll give it another try later (which could mean tomorrow). Thank you for your interest and efforts in creating that article! ---Sluzzelin talk 15:04, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, Sluzzelin. Write in my talk page all you can find about her. --Trottapiano (talk) 15:07, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The French wiki article on Charlotte sources its information on Henriette to Charlotte's memoir Mémoires de Charlotte Robespierre sur ses deux frères which you can read online - I'm having trouble with the new google books interface but I'm hoping that link will take you to page 46 which is the first place she talks about her childhood with her sister, but as Sluzzelin says it's very scanty information. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The presentation on archive.org is much easier to read and navigate. See Mémoires de Charlotte Robespierre sur ses deux frères (p. 46). I believe that all the public domain books digitised by Google are also on the Internet Archive. BTW, there's a link you can click on the new Google Books that takes you back to the old format, which curiously is a big improvement on the new one. Alansplodge (talk) 11:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Alansplodge! Completely agree.70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:26, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have time to read that book so, if someone can, please write in my talk page if there are any information. Thank you. --Trottapiano (talk) 12:10, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't really add anything, except that Maximillian didn't trust his sisters to look after his pigeons when he was sent off to school at the age of 11, that they were reunited every year in the school holidays, and that the loss of Henrietta changed his character to "sad and melancholy". Alansplodge (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

LFPIA

What's an LFPIA? I received an email from a person in Canada I've never heard of before, signed Firstname Lastname PhD LFPIA. (I'm an academic, and the email referred to one of my publications, so this isn't particularly bizarre.) I've run a Google search, but I found virtually nothing other than https://www.planning.org.au/sacontent/history, which has a bunch of oral history interviews with people from South Australia with LFPIA as postnominal letters. Upon finding this webpage, my first thought was "licensed financial planner in Australia", but the page appears to be talking about planning in the land use sense (e.g. urban planning) rather than all kinds of planning. Nyttend backup (talk) 13:42, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Life Fellow of the Planning Institute of Australia. --Jayron 32 13:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c)The Planning Institute of Australia has, amongst other members, Life Fellows. So LFPIA = Life Fellow of the Planning Institute of Australia. Life Fellowship is Awarded to long-standing Fellows as recognition of a notable and lasting contribution and distinguished service to both PIA and the profession as a whole. The Life Fellow status is more likely to be considered for a person approaching retirement after a long distinguished career. DuncanHill (talk) 14:00, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The person's email address is soandso@suchandsuch.com.au, so I guess she must have spent her career in Australia before moving to Canada. Thanks! Nyttend backup (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why did Robinson become Dawson?

Our article on Geoffrey Dawson says "His original last name was Robinson, but he changed it in 1917", but does not tell us why. Can anyone find the reason? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Archives Hub says he "changed his name to Dawson in 1917 when he inherited the family estate in Yorkshire from his aunt, Margaret Dawson." ---Sluzzelin talk 16:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, thought it might be something like that. DuncanHill (talk) 16:32, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And now I found this, looks like a nice estate! DuncanHill (talk) 16:35, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kaiser Bill & HMS Victory

In Rowse, A. L. (1961). All Souls and Appeasement. London: Macmillan and Co Ltd. p. 93. Rowse describes visiting Berlin with Adam von Trott. Whilst there they visited von Trott's uncle, a von Schweinitz, who had a flat in the Berliner Schloss. He mentions seeing the "big desk made of timbers from Nelson's Victory" in the Kaiser's study. Lady Rumbold, wife of Sir Horace Rumbold, 9th Baronet the British ambassador at the time, wrote "In his study is the famous table on which he signed the order for the mobilisation of the Army on 1st August 1914. This writing table is made out of wood from The Victory, and the huge inkstand is a model of it, with the famous Nelson signal ‘England expects etc.’ in coloured flags. Curious isn’t it?" So, where are the desk and inkstand now? Do we have any pictures of them? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to Call To Arms Over By Christmas: Outbreak of War by David Bilton, the desk was a present to Kaiser Bill from Queen Victoria. Alansplodge (talk) 16:34, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

She spoilt that boy. DuncanHill (talk) 16:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. "The monarch’s Neo-Baroque desk, as well, will once again be displayed in the emperor’s former study, a century after it was removed from the New Palace". Exhibition - THE NEW PALACE IN 1918: BETWEEN THE MONARCHY AND THE WEIMAR REPUBLIC. Whether that's the same desk I don't know, perhaps he had several. There's a photo here which shows the saddle that the Kaiser sat on instead of a chair, but no ship model is visible. Alansplodge (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's the desk from the New Palace at Sans Souci, he was allowed to take vast amounts of furniture from there into exile. DuncanHill (talk) 18:22, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I found this, shewing two desks, and this shewing one of his study in the Berliner Schloss. DuncanHill (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here is Kaiser Bill's desk in the Museum Huis Doorn, with weird saddle-chair but no ship model.

This source and this one say that the 1914 mobilisation order was signed on the Victory desk in the New Palace. Alansplodge (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The order was dated "Berlin". DuncanHill (talk) 09:18, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And it seems he spoke from the balcony of the Berliner Schloss on the 1st August. DuncanHill (talk) 10:37, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've found a couple of other sources that say it was at "the Schloss". Curious that there can be any doubt about such a pivotal event. Alansplodge (talk) 11:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Mind you neither the Kaiser nor Bethmann-Hollweg seem to think it important enough to mention in their memoirs. DuncanHill (talk) 11:59, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a desk-shaped hole in the HMS Victory that tourists view today? Just wondering if a lot of the original ship went to souvenirs like this?70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:57, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Brennan has carved an entire HMS Victory from timbers from HMS Victory. DuncanHill (talk) 21:29, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When they cut out the piece for the Kaiser's desk, they patched up the hole with timbers from the original Ship of Theseus. --Amble (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the bookcase from HMS Crushing Defeat for his exile? Clarityfiend (talk) 20:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Victory was already nearly 50 years old at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805 and has since undergone several extensive restorations, 1814-1816, 1922-1928 and 1955. [4] Apparently nearly all of her external planking has been replaced; I have a small billet of oak from the 1920s work which was sold to defray the cost. Alansplodge (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 5

Shi'a Muslim-majority areas in northern India?

Why exactly does this map show Shi'a Muslim-majority areas in northern India? :

https://www.amazon.com/Historic-Map-Georges-Lafosse-Vintage/dp/B086SJWCHB

What are these areas and who exactly are the Shi'a Muslims who live there in such huge numbers? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 04:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that map may be interpreted as Shi'a Muslims forming a majority there. Any coloured dots shown represent a variety of Islam; other religions are not shown at all. The area seems to be mainly Uttar Pradesh. We have an article on Shi'a Islam in the Indian subcontinent, which states that the capital of Uttar Pradesh, Lucknow, is considered the centre of India's Shi'ite Muslim community. See also Chota Imambara and Azadari in Lucknow. --Lambiam 09:43, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Islam in Uttar Pradesh doesn't help much on this question. Alansplodge (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sufism in India mentions Madariyya, "a Sufi order (tariqa) popular in North India, especially in Uttar Pradesh.." Perhaps this also counts as a "variety of Islam"? Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This order is, unlike most Sufi orders, "non-denominational", not requiring its followers to profess themselves adherents of either the Sunni or the Shi'a doctrines. I expect they would not wish to be classified as a "variety" of Islam. --Lambiam 14:53, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

bandanas in the workplace

When I was a child, I've seen young women and girls wearing bandanas on their heads while doing chores or their jobs. Those types of workers also did the same thing in Norma Rae [5]. How should I describe the way the bandanas are worn?2603:7000:8106:C149:5D87:D175:7D55:B870 (talk) 13:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Normally described as a headscarf, the usage you describe is in Headscarf#Use while working. I also found a video; How to Tie a 1940s Headscarf. During World War II, women working in factories wore them to stop their hair getting dirty and to prevent long hair getting caught in machinery. Rosie the Riveter is a famous example. Alansplodge (talk) 13:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat related, the actress Veronica Lake famously had to change her signature hairstyle during WW2 at government request, to prevent women factory workers from imitating it... AnonMoos (talk) 18:32, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

~~The iconic World War II poster of Rosie the Riveter,~~ "We Can Do It!"~~, sports this "fashion accessory".~~ Clarityfiend (talk) 20:47, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, Alansplodge beat me to it, but at least I can provide a link to the poster. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not just in the USA, see Ruby Loftus Screwing a Breech-ring (not quite such a snappy title). I also found this Australian article. Alansplodge (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It may not be snappy, but it's raised many a smile over the years. DuncanHill (talk) 21:27, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm referring to the 1970s. (Norma Rae, which was released in 1979, showed women wearing bandanas differently.)2603:7000:8106:C149:5D87:D175:7D55:B870 (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen the film, but I expect there was the same rationale as their parents' generation, just a different style. Alansplodge (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Walter M. Miller's Darfsteller

Our SF group is, on alternate months, reading either a novel or a short story. This Friday, we discussed The Darfsteller by Walter M. Miller Jr. (of A Canticle for Leibowitz fame). We noticed, among other things, an apparent break in tone, style and message in the last about two pages. Up to then, it was a melancholic story of an out-of-work actor grasping at straws to save "the theater". But then it ends with an optimistic "let go of the old, humans are the creative species, embrace the new", very much in the same vein as Heinlein's "specialisation is for insects". Does anybody know if this epilogue has always been part of the story? The Darfsteller was first published in 1955 by Campbell in Astounding Stories, and we suspect that the editor insisted on this final twist (which is very much in line with Campbell's philosophy, but not, as far as I can tell, Miller's). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the ending was changed at Campbell's behest, and the first published version was that in Astounding, is it not a certainty that the epilogue was already part of that version? The only way we might find out then whether it was changed is from a preserved version of the initially submitted typescript. Campbell's influence was so huge that, reportedly, aspiring authors already moulded their stories even before submission, conforming their endings to the notion of the indomitable spirit of man prevailing against all odds. --Lambiam 10:33, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed. The question is if that segment was in Miller's original draft. It certainly is in the original Astounding copy (which can be found online with a bit of Google-Fu). And it also is in the Dark Benedictions collection of Miller's short stories. In 1955, Miller was already fairly established as a writer (it's the year the First Canticle came out, too). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:15, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wilhelm F.R?

Further to the discussion above about Wilhelm II's desk, The Kaiser’s Order for German Mobilization (August 1, 1914) shows his signature as (if I'm reading this correctly) "Wilhem F.R.". I can't think what "F.R." might stand for, can anyone enlighten me? Alansplodge (talk) 21:07, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The signature is definitely "Wilhelm". 89.243.13.32 (talk) 21:10, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Führer des Reiches? 89.243.13.32 (talk) 21:14, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. Führer is a different megalomaniac and a different world war. The signature shown at Wilhelm II, German Emperor has the "R", which in this context almost certainly stands for "Rex" (King). I don't know if the "F" is an "F" or maybe a "7". If it's an "F", it could stand for "Friedericus" or "Friederich", his actual first name. But I think Duncan (below) has it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's an F, looks more like a J or perhaps an I, in Fraktur. DuncanHill (talk) 21:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In classical Fraktur fonts there is no distinction between the I and J majuscules.^[6] In later versions, a distinction has been created by making the I less tall. --Lambiam 10:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think it's an I. IR = Imperator Rex. Emperor (of Germany) and King (of Prussia). DuncanHill (talk) 21:21, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Imperator Rex (like "Victoria R I")? 89.243.13.32 (talk) 21:24, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See here. DuncanHill (talk) 21:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, that must be it - those Continental types and their dodgy handwriting! (I thought intitially it was a number 7, but settled on a cursive F).

Interestingly, I had a go at following-up the plausible suggestion of User:89.243 and found:

Majestät unser allergnädigster Kaiser Wilhelm II, unser leuchtendes Vorbild und Führer des Reiches, lebe hoch, hoch, hoch! [7]

Many thanks one and all. Alansplodge (talk) 21:38, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

"Wilhelm II. entfloh dem Regierungsalltag mit einer solchen Inbrunst, dass die Deutschen das "I.R." in dessen kaiserlicher Signatur (Imperator Rex) heimlich zu "immer reisebereit" verballhornten" "Wilhelm II escaped the everyday life of the government with such fervour that the Germans secretly distorted the "I.R." in his imperial signature (Emperor Rex) to "always ready to travel"‎" DuncanHill (talk) 21:42, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Having had more of a look, I think Kurrent is more likely than Fraktur. DuncanHill (talk) 22:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kurrent

Makes sense. A modernised cursive script called Sütterlin was introduced into German schools in 1915. I can't read that either. My generation in 1960s Britain learned Marion Richardson's "Linked Script" (with a dip pen), which has minimal ligatures and no flourishes of any kind. Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have the plot, but need author and title

I read a story about 50 years ago that has me stumped. I remember the plot, in which a girl has a nightmare about a man in an old-fashioned green jacket who says he will come for her when she is older. She has the same dream in college. Nothing happens. She marries and has the same dream in which she is told, ‘I will come for you soon.’ She tells her husband, and he says she is stressed and should go on a business trip with him for a change of scenery. They go to Ireland (I think) and stay in an old manor house. The husband goes into a nearby city for a meeting, his wife goes to explore to house. She finds an old portrait with a picture of the man in her dream, a baron who died a century before. When the husband returns, he learns there has been a terrible storm that washed away part of a nearby hillside cemetery. There is an empty grave (it is the long-deceased baron). The wife is nowhere to be found. Now you know why this plot has haunted me!JanefromBayside (talk) 22:03, 5 June 2021 (UTC) Jane[reply]

@JanefromBayside: It's not a match in absolutely every particular, but this is extremely close to "The Face" by E. F. Benson. If that's not the story you're thinking of, it must be a near plagiarism. Deor (talk) 21:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've quickly skimmed the story, and it does seem to be the one you've been looking for. He actually says "I shall soon come for you now." There's no Ireland, but she does see his portrait in a gallery. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See SPOOK STORIES By E · F BENSON Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Albert The Bear

Hello, I would like to revise/correct a part of the Wikipedia Albert The Bear article.

I have editor's rights, however the entry, in "edit," shows only the first part, basically his dates etc.

My question is, how do I gain access to the actual body of the entry?

For context, a summary of the edit:

Albert The Bear and was a Saxon Prince in the 12th century.

He was granted the Duchy of Saxony by Conrad III, elected King of the Germans/Romans, ca. 1137.

The Duke of Saxony at the time was Henry "The Proud" X (Welf/Guelph; inherited Duke of Bavaria), by marriage (to Gertrude, daughter and only child of deceased (1137) Holy Roman Emperor Lothair II (sometimes "III" ), House of Supplinburg (also Duke of Saxony).

He and Conrad had stood for election as King of the Germans/Romans on the death of Lothair, Conrad being elected (1137). Conrad decided his rival would be divested of his Duchy's, and granted Saxony to The Bear (if he could take it).

By this time The Proud had a son, Henry The Lion.

The Proud went to war with The Bear over the Duchy (1137). The Bear lost this conflict, however, The Proud had died suddenly in 1139.

The Lion continued the ultimate successful, for him, conflict, regaining the Duchy in 1142.

The article attributes this regaining only to "Henry," without these factual details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmasursky (talk • contribs) 22:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lmasursky: there should be "edit" links by each section header. Click on these to edit the sections. See Wikipedia:FAQ/Editing for more help. DuncanHill (talk) 22:31, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And if you click on the Edit tab between Read and View history, you get the whole article in the edit window. --Lambiam 09:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But remember that you need reliable sources to support your edit. The nice people at Wikipedia:Teahouse will help if needed. Alansplodge (talk) 10:13, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it, hope you like it better that way. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 6

Snežana

Greetings,

Came across east European given feminine name article Snežana. The article mentions, "..Snezhana, is a Slavic, Circassian, and Lithuanian feminine given name, possibly derived from sneg ("snow") and žena ("woman")..."

Wish to discuss historical linguistics

My question is whether etymology of Suffix 'žena' ("woman") is of European origin itself or it is of Arabic origin?

If it is not of European origin and is of Arabic origin then any etymological chance of correlation with Arabic word Zina ?

Has this word used in Ottoman Turkish as an adjective ever?

Asking this question since, word Kafir is used for unveiled attractive female too, there is likely similar instance where by usage of word 'awrah (Intimate parts) creates usage of word Aurat as 'Women' too. I know my guess work may be right or entirely wrong, still better to find out if any one knows.

Bookku (talk) 03:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is more plausible that Снежана (Snežana) is an alteration of Снежанка (Snežanka), the Bulgarian name for the fairy-tale character Snow White. According to Wiktionary, the Bulgarian word жена (žena), meaning "woman", descends from Proto-Indo-European *gʷḗn, other descendants of which are English queen and Ancient Greek γυνή (gunḗ). So there is no relation with the Arabic term زِنَاء (zina) meaning "adultery". In present-day Turkish, zina is used only as a noun; I assume it was likewise in Ottoman Turkish. --Lambiam 09:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: What you suggest, Снежанка, seems plausible,after your reply I came across Zánka and that seems pre Islamic so we can hope word usage of Snežana & Snežanka can be preIslamic . Thanks for the information. Rgds. Bookku (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian and Hungarian are from unrelated language families. Also, Grimms' Fairy Tales with the Snow White story was published in 1812, and the Bulgarian translation of Snow White must have been much later. --Lambiam 22:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I always assumed Snezhana was just снег + alternation of г and ж (same as in бегу - бежишь, друг - дружба and the like) + -ана by analogy with other female given names, rather than anything to do with жена/queen/gyne. IOW, the ж is part of the root. Aecho6Ee (talk) 23:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Liability insurance and payouts

If, purely hypothetically, one causes a car accident and someone successfully sues them for damages, could one's insurance company directly pay damages to this person in your place as per a liability insurance contract between you and them? Basically, what I'm wondering if your insurance company could send the money directly to the person who won his lawsuit against you or whether they would literally have to first send this money to you before you can actually send this money to the other person? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 05:33, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That could depend on the insurance regulations where it happens. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about in various U.S. states? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 06:23, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Each state has its own set of insurance regulations. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:50, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I worked in the London insurance market for 25 years and can't imagine a reason why the claim couldn't be settled directly between the insurer and the claimant. Anything else would just increase costs for everyone. Alansplodge (talk) 10:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would also be problematic at least for compulsory insurances. The culpable party might be deeply in debt, and the insurance money could potentially be collected by a different debtor, with the claimant ending up with an empty or unenforceable claim. For my health insurance, on the other hand, I receive (and pay ;-) "normal" bills and then reclaim the money from the insurance. But larger items (like a hospital stay) are settled directly. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The point of liability insurance is to, well, transfer liability. The insurer assumes the insured's liability. If the insured incurs a liability that is covered by the insurance contract, the liability becomes that of the insurer. If an insured is sued for an alleged liability covered by an insurance contract, the insurer will defend the insured party in court, since the insurer is the one potentially on the hook. --47.155.96.47 (talk) 05:33, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's a name for this. 95.150.97.214 (talk) 14:55, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 7

The first Russian printing press

When exactly did the first printing press in Russia actually emerge? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 19:36, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some time between 1553 (according to the Russian Wikipedia article on printing press) and 1563 when the first dated printed book Acts and Epistles of the Apostles (Апо́стол) started getting printed (see also the articles on Ivan Fyodorov and Pyotr Mstislavets). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:46, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Do we know where exactly in Russia this printing press was located? 68.228.73.154 (talk) 20:38, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the Moscow Print Yard. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:42, 7 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 8

Dancing Plague of 1518 Sources

Hi! Could I have some assistance in finding high-quality, reliable, secondary sources on the Dancing plague of 1518 that don't cite John Waller? I'm looking to better source the article, which over-relies on this particular author. Thanks! Tyrone Madera (talk) 03:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A mention in A History of Madness in Sixteenth-century Germany (p. 33) by H. C. Erik Midelfort. Alansplodge (talk) 10:32, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Divine Punishment or Disease? Medieval and Early Modern Approaches to the 1518 Strasbourg Dancing Plague by Lynneth J. Miller, from Dance Research, the journal of the Society for Dance Research. Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And a going back a bit, The Black Death and the Dancing Mania (1888) by Justus Friedrich Carl Hecker. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alansplodge, Looks like Miller also cites Waller, but the source looks better cited than most. ~~Do you have more info on how many pages in Hecker's book are dedicated to the event?~~ Tyrone Madera (talk) 20:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am reminded of the 1969 film They Shoot Horses, Don't They? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:43, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, there's actually a lot of parallels there. Tyrone Madera (talk) 23:18, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

B-17 incident

Hello, I'm researching an odd B-17 incident I found described in an old book.

It concerns an B-17 that took off "in 1939" (no specific date given) from "San Diego" (no mention of Lindbergh Field or other airfield) bound for Hawaii. After losing radio contact with the plane "for a couple of hours" the San Diego personnel were amazed to see the bomber come in for a landing. After landing they discovered most of the crew badly burned and dead inside, with the exception of the copilot who brought the plane in. Unfortunately he was also burned and succumbed from his wounds without giving any explanation for the event. Allegedly, all the crew's sidearms were emptied but no bullet holes were found, either in the airframe skin or aviators.

The empty pistols part of the story makes me think this is some sort of urban legend possibly based on a real incident but I found no mention of any involving B-17s taking off from San Diego in 1939. The source (the book) is not very reliable, once referring to the airplane as belonging to the USAAF and once as belonging to the Navy. For this reason I suspect the incident (if any) might not involve a B-17 at all, just a multi-engine aircraft with a crew bigger than two.

Anything above rings a bell to anyone? 208.127.136.43 (talk) 11:13, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Accidents and incidents involving the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress mentions an incident in 1940 in a B-17 based out of March Air Reserve Base outside Riverside, California. The plane did behave erratically in flight and crash, no mention of mysterious empty guns or of anyone surviving the subsequent crash, however. That's the closest I can find.--Jayron 32 11:22, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[8] mentions a Martin B-10 bomber that had 3 crew members burn up on board and crash, there was one survivor who managed to parachute. No one knows what caused the fire. It was at Langley in Virginia, however, not San Diego. --Jayron 32 11:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[9] mentions an unknown bomber crashing near the Salton Sea in 1942. Details unknown, but a large number of crew died. --Jayron 32 11:36, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion on Quora matches your incident closely, but calls it a cargo plane, and concludes that it is most likely bullshit. --Jayron 32 11:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! This seems to be the one! Thank you! 208.127.136.43 (talk) 11:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This thread discusses possible sources of the myth. --Jayron 32 11:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

this article attributes the story to two different science fiction authors, Robert Coe Gardner in the 1950s, and Charles Berlitz in 1988, and notes the likely source of modern tellings of the story is Berlitz. --Jayron 32 11:47, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Berlitz was not a science-fiction writer. He was the heir (or one of the heirs) to a successful language-teaching business, and dabbled in weird phenomena (kind of a third-rate Charles Fort, as far as that goes). AnonMoos (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Berlitz didn't intend to be a science-fiction writer, but much of his purported non-fiction was sufficiently speculative, inventive and un-fact-checked (surely knowingly) that it could pass for bad science fiction. He had a good deal in common with John G. Fuller and Erich von Däniken: there ought to be a term to cover exploitative writers of this type. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.58 (talk) 23:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Culture in totalitarianism and democracy,

Is there a website or an information on how culture is practiced or being done in totalitarianism and in democracy?Donmust90 (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Donmust90, uh... that's the broadest topic I've seen in a long time. Could you be a little more specific? Elizium23 (talk) 15:40, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, is culture being done freely or is it restricted in totalitarianism than in a democracy? Donmust90 (talk) 15:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Donmust90, that is still completely vague! How many worldwide instances of totalianarianism and democracy have there been through time? They all do things differently! Trying to generalize is useless here. It calls for far too much speculation. Elizium23 (talk) 15:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A totalitarian regime will restrict the freedom of people. That is a defining characteristic of totalitarianism. Dissidents may organize clandestine cultural activities to circumvent censorship, such as samizdat in the former Soviet Bloc. They have to adjust their methods to the means available and the suppression methods of the regime. --Lambiam 19:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "culture"? Can you provide some examples of what you're talking about? <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 19:36, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should start with something a little less challenging, like the question of life, the universe and everything. We know the answer to that one. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC) [reply]

DonMust90 -- Maybe you could start by looking at the small and short book "On Tyranny" by Timothy Snyder, written in response to Trump's Nov. 2016 election, which attempts to give individuals advice on how to act to keep things from sliding further downwards, with a number of historical comparisons... AnonMoos (talk) 18:30, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

June 9

Looking for a name of a specific cloth some Muslims put on their head

After long research without results, I decided to come here to try... I'm looking for the name of this specific cloth that some of the Muslims put on the head. (example 1, example 2). I searched for "head cloth of Muslims", "Keffiyeh", etc. and found nothing. Maybe you know its name? Thank you ThePupil (talk) 23:07, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 395: / Line 395: @@
 ::::::[https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4627 this article] attributes the story to two different science fiction authors, [[Robert Coe Gardner]] in the 1950s, and [[Charles Berlitz]] in 1988, and notes the likely source of modern tellings of the story is Berlitz. --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 11:47, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 :::::::Charles Berlitz was not a science-fiction writer.  He was the heir (or one of the heirs) to a successful language-teaching business, and dabbled in weird phenomena (kind of a third-rate [[Charles Fort]], as far as that goes). [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 18:19, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
+::::::::Charles Berlitz didn't ''intend'' to be a science-fiction writer, but much of his purported non-fiction was sufficiently speculative, inventive and un-fact-checked (surely knowingly) that it could pass for bad science fiction. He had a good deal in common with [[John G. Fuller]] and [[Erich von Däniken]]: there ought to be a term to cover exploitative writers of this type. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [[Special:Contributions/2.122.0.58|2.122.0.58]] ([[User talk:2.122.0.58|talk]]) 23:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 == Culture in totalitarianism and democracy, ==