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January 5

Mentally ill MP in 1861

In the 25th May 1861 issue of Punch 'Essence of Parliament' (page 209) we read "MR. ROEBUCK had been informed and believed that in the minority against the Repeal of the Paper Duty, there appeared a gentleman who was not mentally qualified to take part in any business at all. The Member for Sheffield brought the subject before the House, and an explanation of the case was offered by a friend of the individual in question. It was stated that the mind of that person had been perturbed, and that he had voluntarily retired to an asylum, into which he could not be received until two medical men had given a certificate couched in language so strong as perfectly to justify inquiry whether the document were a formality or a representation of facts. But it was also stated that the Member alluded to was placed under no restraint, and choosing to come from the Asylum to the House, did so, conversed rationally, voted, and went away quietly. Mr. Punch, having recorded the circumstances, leaves an unpleasant subject, with the single remark that though, as it happened, the registration of the vote was of no consequence, it will be well that whippers-in on both sides use sound discretion when any similar case again arises. In these days people are not so reverent as of old, and cause for a certain kind of talk should be avoided. The rule is not now quicquid delirant * * * plectuntur Achivi, in regard to Kings, Lords, or Commons." What I would like to know is - who was the individual in question, and did he make any kind of recovery? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 03:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

A little googling finds this blog entry, which identifies the MP in question as Andrew Steuart, MP for Cambridge. That's all I have for now. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 12:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

A little more here in The Spectator, and here in The Lancet, both from 1861. No news as to his later health, although he retired from the Commons in 1863, and lived to be 82. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 12:46, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Here he is in the divorce courts in 1870. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The Edinburgh Academy Register mentions him as "Dux of the Whole School" in 1838, and mentions a son, George Alexander, who died in a shooting accident at Winchester in 1866. There's a little more detail in the Winchester College Register, here.

Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 10:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 21:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Captain D'Agoust

This painting from May 6, 1788 didn't show him properly. Can you search if exist another one who showed only him very full in face, and upload it on commons? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.103.13 (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not a painting, and not "from" 1788 - it's a much later illustration in a book by Francois Guizot, born 1787. As the image file says. I expect the face is imagined. Commons has no other image of him. Johnbod (talk) 04:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

But can you search for another one in other sites? 193.207.171.173 (talk) 06:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You can, but it must be appropriately licensed to upload it to Commons. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but can you help me to find one if really exist? Thank you. 95.248.237.42 (talk) 09:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Hundred Days (1815)

What were the Royal regiments send by Louis XVIII to arrest Napoleon, and their respective commanders? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.103.13 (talk) 15:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Easily accessible we have Histoire du Consulat et de l'Empire (19/20), by Adolphe Thiers with a politically not entirely neutral tone. The military were in a shamble following various vicissitudes after the Vienne Treaty. Thus Louis was not acting as a war leader directly but delegated the function to the Comte d'Artois (who could have possibly be designed a candidate for the throne himself by his supporters). The Comte was to be the principal leader assisted by the Duc of Berry, the Duc of Angoulême and the duc of Orleans; the Marechal Macdonald (small d) would be assisting the Duc of Angoulême and the Marechal Ney was to be on his own. Marechal Macdonald then gathers the 20e et 24e de ligne and the 13e dragoons. Ney gathers five infantry regiments: the 15e léger, the 81e de ligne, the 76e, the 60e and 77e, three cavalry regiment 5th dragoon, 8th chasseurs and the 6th hussard and he is also expecting the 4e de ligne and the 6e léger for later. Together with general Lecourbe and general de Bourmont he's adding to it the 60e and 77e de ligne, also the 5th dragoons and the 8e chasseurs. Near Paris the duc de Berry gathered various royalist supportes including the Gardes Nationales. Macdonald's troops show no will to fight when Napoleon arrives in Lyon; Ney some days later turns to Napoleon without his own troops explicitly displaying disaprovement. Thiers doesn't mention the 15th de ligne which I found rallied Napoleon early, thus there must be missing various units which were activated locally by Prefects. News being propagated through the Chappe telegraph specific instructions were not necessary regarding foreign intruders (Napoleon was monarch at Elba.) Hope this helps. --Askedonty (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ancient regime in France

In 1789, before the revolution, where was the Military Tribunal and who were its judges? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.103.13 (talk) 21:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

A Royal officer, the Prévôt des Maréchaux, who was also tasked with matters related to logistics, usually itinerant similarly to other Marshalls and various other imperial officers around the world and history seated at the next semi-important town or city near of the related occurrence and proceeded assisted by his lieutenants, although one of those lieutenants could be the one presiding instead. Those, and the prévôt were judicially required to adequately consult local or more general civil jurists in accordance to the case considered however. Indemnisation of the possible victims of a given misdeed could be dependent on local jurisprudence, or the case could be otherwise related to other civil offenses. The supreme headquarters of the Prévôté originally under the Constable of France was the fr:Table de marbre au Palais, in Paris. --Askedonty (talk) 07:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, then who was the head of Table de marbre in Paris in 1789, before the revolution? 95.248.237.42 (talk) 09:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

It depends. The table (of black marble), was occasionally used for gala dinners (La table de marbre). Askedonty (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/etat/c_etattitle.html 95.248.237.42 (talk) 10:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Good choice. The table itself was destroyed in a fire in 1618 but La table de marbre says that in June 1629 a royal decree transfered the Constable charge to the marshalcy by order of seniority thus in 1789 the charge might have been held, according to your source by Louis-Georges-Erasme de Contades, Maréchal de Contades, Commander in Chief for the Alsace province. Note that regarding military judicial matters, such level would have been concerned only with appeals, most of which would have been blocked or treated at much lower hiererachical levels. --Askedonty (talk) 10:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, closed. Can you help me also with "Captain D'Agoust"? 95.248.237.42 (talk) 10:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately no. There are too many d'Agoult at the same period both in the gardes and occasionally captains. The image of only one is easily accessible: Antoine-Jean. According to fr:Famille d'Agoult, two d'Agoult are in the gardes du roy and of age, relatively to the episode, but Jean Antoine is a Count and Antoine-Jean a Viscount, then Louis-Fouquet de Vincens who is their elder by 20 years and would be 51 in 1788 may match better Carlyle's description. Of interest is that pamphlet directed against an attempt at the wrongfull arrestation of members of Parliament by a Captain d'Agoult sent by autocratic ministers Siège of the Palais; alternatively, Kidnapping of the delegates (fr) in the context of a struggle over authority between parliament and the government (see: Jean-Jacques Duval d'Eprémesnil), but the pamphlet is not illustrated. --Askedonty (talk) 12:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, closed. Can you help me also with "Hundred Days (1815)"? 95.248.237.42 (talk) 12:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

(Answer displaced to the relevant paragraph) Askedonty (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, closed. 193.207.167.111 (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

January 6

Seal of Gedialah

in Gedaliah, son of Pashhur refers to http://www.jpost.com/Local-Israel/In-Jerusalem/Seal-of-King-Zedekiahs-minister-found-in-Jlem-dig. Bibleplaces.com had a skeptic. https://www.bibleplaces.com/blog/2008/08/seal-of-king-zedekiah-official/ "Should an individual scholar be so elevated on the basis of his/her own unconfirmed claims? Is there relevance to the fact that the City of David Foundation is “right-wing”?" Does somebody have a good source that says this artifact is bona fide? Temerarius (talk) 21:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The skeptic's post does not cast aspersions on the find itself being genuine, but notes that "there is significant discussion among archaeologists about" the "sensationalistic" identification of the owners of this and an earlier found seal with individuals named in Jeremiah. Unfortunately, no reference is provided to any of this discussion.  --Lambiam 09:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

See Neriah for the most famous seal impressions... AnonMoos (talk) 18:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

January 7

Was Eliza Jumel's attorney Hamilton Jr.?

The article on Eliza Jumel reads in part "The apocryphal story is that she was represented by Alexander Hamilton, Jr., the son of Alexander Hamilton, whom Burr shot and killed in a duel years earlier. What actually happened was that Hamilton Jr. held her assets in a paper only trade during the divorce, returning the assets to her later. He was not her attorney."

The article on Alexander Hamilton Jr. says "Hamilton represented Eliza Jumel against her husband Aaron Burr during two years of divorce proceedings"

Seems contradictory, and not only do they both cite the same book by Ron Chernow, but they cite the same page. The preponderance of other fairly reliable sources like the [1]NY Law institute seems to suggest Hamilton was her lawyer. — THORNFIELD HALL ^(Talk) 09:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Some book sources: "Alexander Hamilton Jr. was Eliza Burr's lawyer in the divorce proceedings."^[2] "the divorce was finalized by Jumel's lawyer, Alexander Hamilton, Jr."^[3] I could not gain access to any edition of the book by Chernow.  --Lambiam 22:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Poland 1939 WWII Air Raid Codes

Looking for a list of air raid codes by city that were broadcast on Polish radio when WWII started. Albert-family (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Cultural amnesia

I've noticed since about 2016 or so, a very strange, almost Orwellian phenomenon that I call cultural amnesia, but I suspect there is a more accurate term in use by historians, psychologists, sociologists, and others, and that my ad hoc term doesn't come close to the real thing. My question is, what is the real term called by academics? I will very briefly explain the kind of idea I'm talking about by using a simple, current, and real-world example, and let others guide me in the right direction as to what this idea is called: Today on Reddit, there was a very popular discussion about how people were outraged that resellers were buying up all the cakes in Costco, leaving few of them available for the general public. This phenomenon has been covered by the mainstream media.[4] The thing is, Costco was founded in 1983 as a wholesale corporation. Businesses have been buying products at Costco for the express purpose of reselling them for forty years. Yet, just within the last year, vast numbers of the general public have forgotten this fact, which is why I use it as an example of cultural amnesia. But it also indicates other things going on, in my mind. Customer demographics change over time, and younger people might have forgotten the original purpose of Costco and have grown up thinking it was a different kind of company based on their own personal experience. My overall point, however, is that this kind of "amnesia" is happening all over, and I see it quite often. Can anyone else explain what I'm seeing in terms that are already in use? Viriditas (talk) 20:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Rather than amnesia, which means loss of memory, this is simply ignorance and trolling, which is very common on Reddit and every other free-for-all forum. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know a name for this, but it's not new. George Santayana famously wrote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" well over 100 years ago. --ColinFine (talk) 15:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the phenomenon is particularly strange. And definitely not 'Orwellian'. Just a part of culture as discourse. To take a random example from politics, if you are a Pakistani, discussing the struggle for independence against the Raj during the earlier part of the 20th century, it is easier to do so if you 'forget' that those arguing for it were doing so for an independent India, and not for a Pakistan that nobody had imagined at the time (See Mukulika Banerjee, The Pathan Unarmed: Opposition & Memory in the North West Frontier, School of American Research Press, 2000, for an extensive discussion on this). And yes, as the older generation 'forgets' this, as no longer politically expedient, the next generation simply takes it more or less for granted that what they have now is what they wanted then. Culture isn't something people passively absorb, it is something they actively recreate and reshape through their own participation in it. And do so selectively, remembering what is useful, and forgetting what is best forgotten, or what simply no longer matters. We all do this on an individual level, so it isn't at all surprising that collectively the same thing happens. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The term recency illusion tends to be heard specifically in relation to language usage, but really is broad enough to cover what's being asked about. --142.112.220.136 (talk) 08:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Never rebuilt Japanese cities

Are there examples in history of Japanese settlements (cities, village, etc...) destroyed by natural catastrophes and never rebuilt? Thank you. 79.42.51.153 (talk) 21:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

See Ghost town#Asia. General Ization ^Talk 21:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

See also 13th century in Japan. Nichiren talks a lot about natural catastrophes at that time, so there's probably a lot. Viriditas (talk) 21:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding examples of permanently abandoned settlements, for example Tagajō, a regional administrative centre of Mutsu Province in the 9th Century, was destroyed by the 869 Jogan earthquake and tsunami. The remains were covered by sediments dated to the 10th century but the city was rebuilt. The Unzen disaster levelled large areas of Shimabara and Higo across the Ariake Sea but didn't stop them being rebuilt. I'll keep looking but most settlements are located for a reason and that doesn't change even when there's a disaster. Mikenorton (talk) 22:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn’t an exception be coastal towns or low lying areas such as flood zones that are inundated? There’s many examples of abandoned settlements that were permanently flooded. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Possibly smaller settlements, but in another example, the small coastal city of Kamaishi, Iwate was completely destroyed by the tsunami from the 1896 Sanriku earthquake, it was rebuilt, then heavily damaged by the 2011 Tohoku earthquake tsunami and again rebuilt. No doubt some examples will turn up, but looking at areas affected by the Japanese disasters that I know about, I'm not finding anything obvious. Mikenorton (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Here where I am in Hawaii there are many small settlements that were destroyed and never rebuilt. It might have something to do with cultural traditions or just the difficulty of rebuilding a town on a fresh lava flow, I don't know. Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Also the inadvisability of doing so. In places like Hawaii and Iceland, eruptions sometimes recur in the same place after an interval of years, decades or a few centuries. The currently evacuated town of Grindavik is built on a lava field reckoned to be 2,350 years old, and look how that's working out. {The poster formerly known as 878.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

To examine the thinking behind this, Dunwich was an influential port, capital city and seat of a bishopric. The invading Danes (who were pagan) put paid to the last function. They took out the bishop of Elmham as well. Coastal erosion caused the river estuary to move and buildings to fall into the sea but Dunwich regained some religious function (Greyfriars Franciscan priory is still extant). However, when order was restored the dioceses of Dunwich and Elmham were united, with the seat at Elmham. 2A02:C7B:228:3400:6512:B1E5:DFB6:B10B (talk) 13:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Anotsu was a settlement that was destroyed by the 1498 Meiō earthquake. 115.188.140.167 (talk) 02:01, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Hodie mihi, cras tibi

What is the oldest known occurrence of the epitaph (or ‘cynical jeer’ in RLS’s words) “Hodie mihi, cras tibi”? Did it perhaps already exist in antiquity (not necessarily as a Latin epitaph, but the same idea expressed in connection with death)? I guess I'm interested in both (first known Latin epitaph of this kind, and earlier similar adages). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The oldest use in a book that I can find is in a letter by Francesco Filelfo (1398–1481).^[5] Contrasting "hodie this, cras that" was of course also used by ancient Latin writers, and there have to be attestations of the sentiment "that which befalls me now may also become your fate" being expressed, but I am not aware of these coming together. The poem from which we have the aphorism Carpe diem reflects on the brevity of life, but not on a contrast between those who died and those who still live.  --Lambiam 20:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Lambiam, I haven't found any older exact quote (let alone epitaph)! There is, of course, a voluminous history of contemplating one's own death (see e.g. Memento Mori), but what I find so striking about this succinct phrase is the fact that a dead person is saying it very directly to me, not some philosopher or spiritual leader in general. More recent epitaphs sometimes include skull and bones, making Stevenson's 'cynical jeer' more understandable. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Bowen, Barbara C. (1984). "Roman Jokes and the Renaissance Prince, 1455-1528". Illinois Classical Studies: 142. has Cosimo de' Medici to Palla Strozzi in 1433. Epistolae was 1485 but i cannot tell if Lambiam's link is words by Francesco Filelfo or if he is publishing an earlier letter? fiveby(zero) 00:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The letter by Filelfo is dated iij.Nonas Decẽbres.M.cccc.xxviiij.^[6] This edition of his letters was published soon after his death; many more would follow.  --Lambiam 09:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Fiveby and Lambiam! ---Sluzzelin talk 23:35, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

January 8

Is this newspaper clipping from 1985 real?

I've seen this image of a newspaper clipping [7] passed around online a fair amount, but I haven't been able to track it down in any newspaper archive. Does anyone know if it is real, or what paper it was published in?

Text:

Friday, August 9, 1985

Naked Witches

Salem, Ore.

Police say about 150 nude women fondled each other and joined in a ceremony involving the display of symbols associated with satanism at a state park, but no laws were broken.

Associated Press

Margalob (talk) 01:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It looks fake. 1985 was the height of the Satanic panic in the US, partly encouraged by conservative Christians, emboldened by the backing of the Reagan administration. If the AP had reported this, there would be entire books written about it. The fact that there aren't tells me that it never happened. Also, there's something odd about the layout of the clipping. Keep in mind, people used to churn out fakes and hoaxes way before the internet. Former reality television show actor Donald Trump even tried a hoax of his own in the New York Times just four years after this with the Central Park jogger case, so it was a popular pastime for people with too much time on their hands. Viriditas (talk) 02:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Tipper Gore was not in any way part of the "Reagan administration." The PMRC backed widespread claims that rock music was satanic, MTV was satanic, Dungeons and Dragons was satanic, etc... while the Reagan administration touted "Just Say No." 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hoax? I suppose you're talking about this ad? (TimesMachine link for those who have access -- see page 13.)

I thought it was a deeply nasty piece of writing and it permanently colored my view of Trump. But I don't think it was a hoax. --Trovatore (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

With respect, you are mistaken. Our articles cover this already, so you are just rewriting history. The rising Christian power in the US was directly connected to the Reagan admin and those who helped Reagan get in office. There are entire books about this association, so you may want to visit the library. Before Reagan, the GOP had isolated evangelicals, keeping them away from the reigns of power. Reagan was the first to let them in and give them significant power in the government. The reasons for this are seen in the complex lobbying coalitions that emerged to work together to fulfill the objectives of the Powell memo, and to also achieve the long-term goals of the Council for National Policy.

• "Satanic ritual abuse brought together several groups normally unlikely to associate, including psychotherapists, self-help groups, religious fundamentalists and law enforcement. Initial accusations were made in the context of the rising political power of conservative Christianity within the United States, and religious fundamentalists enthusiastically promoted rumors of SRA.
• The Parents Music Resource Center was founded in May 1985. The group's formation was cemented with the financial help of Mike Love of the Beach Boys, and Joseph Coors, the owner of Coors beers. Both had actively supported Reagan's candidacy, and Coors offered offices to the PMRC. Tipper Gore was a founding member along with Susan Baker, wife of Treasury Secretary James Baker in Reagan’s cabinet.
• The public advocacy group "Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons" (B.A.D.D.) [arose] in 1983…[it] achieved some success in airing its views in the press, both through conservative Christian media properties as well as mainstream outlets. The organization distributed its materials in Australia through conservative advocacy groups affiliated with the Reverend Fred Nile, such as the Australian Federation for Decency.
• Steven P. Miller: "By 1980, the momentum lay on the right side of the evangelical continuum. Ronald Reagan's victory linked evangelicalism with political conservatism in the popular imagination for decades to come. The Christian Right—a movement propelled by evangelicals but also containing sympathetic Catholics, Mormons, and a handful of Jewish allies—received disproportionate media attention, not least because its leaders served up a steady dish of spectacles. The Christian Right gave liberals an enduring foil, sparking the first of two evangelical scares. The reaction against Jerry Falwell and other Christian Right leaders led to the creation of People for the American Way. The public impact of evangelicalism was not strictly political, as the satanism scare and the PTL scandal revealed. Evangelical anxieties and spectacles were American anxieties and spectacles, too. This dynamic hindered Pat Robertson's presidential campaign, even as evangelical influence within the Republican Party remained strong."

Tipper Gore isn’t mentioned anywhere regarding the Satanic panic. Viriditas (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I was 24 then and it did not happen, for it or anything like it wouldn't have happened. In addition, the column's width is narrow, ok for ads perhaps, but not for most subject matter. Also the ink and the type are far too crude for 80s copy which was way better than decades earlier. Even worse, a quick search shows that the date of the supposed incident is Vivek Ramaswamy's birthdate, which strongly suggests it is a recent hoax. Modocc (talk) 03:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Good points. However, a reverse google image search traces it to a Twitter post[8] which attributes it to a real clipping from The 15 Association newsletter, a gay BDSM fraternity.[9] According to that link, the image is from a newsletter in the possession of the GLBT Historical Society. Viriditas (talk) 03:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

A Twitter post? Really? That claims that an otherwise unknown AP blurb was printed up solely in an obscure newsletter that happens to be buried in some box held by a gay organization. Real cute. I'm not buying into that mess... You do know the Associated Press distributes its stories nationwide. Right? Modocc (talk) 04:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Just reporting what I found; I’m not giving it any kind of authenticity. Viriditas (talk) 04:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source reporting on the ad. It is also covered in the section Central Park Five § Media coverage, cited to reliable sources.  --Lambiam 10:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I offer to you, the Red Deer Advocate, August 10, 1985, page 16: [10]. --Golbez (talk) 04:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The last paragraph about the cadets is hilarious. Viriditas (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The Oregon Statesman covered it on Aug 7, 1985. Newspapers.com is a pay site, but that's where it is if anyone wants to know. And the Asbury Press covered it on Aug 9, its first paragraph matching that clipping exactly, though it's a longer story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The Women In Conscious Creative Action was incorporated April 11, 1984. [11] and they have a Facebook webpage. The AP didn't get the Wicca organization's name right, and from what Norma Joyce said of their event the two cadets reported to the police that reported to the AP, a load-of-rubbish regarding them fondling each other. Of coarse cameras were fewer, but it is possible they took pics of their body paint (I have old pics of my fiancée with body paint that she took long before we met). Back then we didn't have mobile phone cameras everywhere though. Modocc (talk) 05:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

This page scan is even better! Nude women legal Fish love prevents sleep Tick Tock · VCRs for $769. https://imgur.com/2MSq2jy Temerarius (talk) 20:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

https://imgur.com/a/M5f8PjF "Meet draws complaints" by Theresa Nova of the Statesman-Journal 7 Aug 1985 Temerarius (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Most stories have a kernel of truth. I remember that a women's group performed a full moon ceremony in the west country and a reporter wrote that this was a traditional ceremony which had been performed for thousands of years. A common motive for fakery is financial gain. In the local press correspondents for local clubs were (and still may be) invited to file match reports for the sports pages. In the nineteenth century a newspaper received a report and published it without question. However, the match never took place. Prior to the alleged event a lot of people had placed bets on the scoreline, which corresponded with the fictitious scoreline transmitted to the newspaper. 2A02:C7B:228:3400:A180:B29C:E1CD:CF6B (talk) 13:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The point is that the meeting of the women took place, but there was no sexual activities or satanism involved. That was untrue, and the news media repeated those false claims across the wires at the height of the Satanic panic. Viriditas (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

 Resolved The newspaper clipping was real. Temerarius (talk) 22:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps. It lacks the full story whether it is from the fraternity newsletter or not. Modocc (talk) 23:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Do not worry too much about it. I hurriedly went buying the "1984" single by Eurythmics, the one featuring the Sex Crime song, envisioning I might need it either as a study subject or a fancy charm. One my mother had had a Salem menthol smoking period earlier on, two they dared broadcast the tale widely enough for leading me to self-timer pictures of myself so I would check whether I looked as a cadet or not. Considerations regarding gay-related matters were also involved in my behavioural mood, they must have been quite explicitly present in the motivation of the broadcaster. --Askedonty (talk) 00:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Read up above again. The fraternity in the 1980s performed a kind of informal archival clipping service related to special interest stories in their domain. This was a common hobby in the 1980s and I’ve written at least one article about a man who made this his lifelong pursuit (Peter Tamony). There’s also some crossover with practices like scrapbooking (which were huge in the 80s) and media preservation methods. In other words, the fraternity has nothing to do with this story, it’s only one group that clipped the news story and popularized it through increased attention given by archivists. Viriditas (talk) 00:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

say in recent airline scare

In recent light of Alaska Airlines Flight 1282, I'm hoping Sully Sullenberger would have his say in the case. If that happens, perhaps he might report from KPIX-TV, right?2603:7000:8641:810E:5086:91A8:2BB3:5B76 (talk) 05:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

"We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." Clarityfiend (talk) 06:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

But if he gets his say, I predict that he will then say that this was something that should not have happened. Also predictably, he will say that the crew responded quite adequately, as they have been trained to do. Since he is a pilot, not an engineer, his opinions on the structural failure itself are as good as yours and mine.  --Lambiam 10:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Adequate would have been pulling the CVR circuit breaker after landing. --46.114.2.44 (talk) 03:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Ugliness

Unattractiveness#Legality states: "Similarly, according to The Economist, Washington DC has laws that prohibit lookism." If this is really the case, then there must me pertinent citable laws, right? So why is this presented like secret insider information then? Hildeoc (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It might be possible to find that info in the cited article, but it appears to require a subscription. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I have a subscription, and it doesn't really go into more detail. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

D.C. CODE ANN. §§ 2-1401.02(22), 2-1402.11 (2001) from Corbet, William R. (2001). "Hotness Discrimination". Catholic University Law Review. fn #62

Since, as a foreigner, I'm not familiar with US law as such, would you, Fiveby, or anybody else in the know mind including this accordingly in the said article, upon further review?--Hildeoc (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not clear to me what should be added. A link to the relevant statute? The DC code prohibits (in certain contexts) discrimination based on "personal appearance", so a realtor cannot refuse to sell property to a client because they have no peyes, and also not because they are too good-looking. In finding a partner to mate with, discrimination based on physical appearance, however sad, is as of todai still legal in Washington DC.  --Lambiam 18:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam: But these legal provisions, even though limited in scope like virtually any legal regulation, can still be considered relevant in the context of the lemma in question, can't they? Hildeoc (talk) 20:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

True, but it is still not clear what should be added. The relevant statute contains eight clauses concerning discriminatory practices with regard to personal appearance – itself the subject of a complicated definition – comprising together almost 700 words, not counting the clauses listing exceptions to the stated prohibitions. Wikipedia editors summarizing this in a helpful way will require original research.  --Lambiam 22:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian nationalism.

There is something vary confusing. Writen is: "The origins of modern Ukrainian nationalism emerge during the 17th-century Cossack uprising against the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky. Ukrainian nationalism draws upon a single national identity of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, that dates back to the 9th century." But, historically, it is not true. At this time an ukrainian identity was not known. None of the above: "...national identity of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history..." was not Ukrainian. The term "ukraine" originated from "the edge land", "the military border zone", "the Land-in-Between", "no man's land"... against the Ottoman Empire. All the Cossack Hetmans, such as Boghdan Khmelnytsky, Taras Bulba, and many others, ran in the fight "for "Russian land" and "for Russian soul and faith" but not "for Ukrainian" whatever. We can talk about Ukrainian nationalism only after the October Revolution, when the territorial units of the former Soviet Union began to recognize and identify themselves as territorial and national entities, units and identities. FilipTu (talk) 12:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Are you asking a question? --Error (talk) 12:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Nationalism often utilises stories, legends and myths that are not (or not provably) historically true. British nationalism embraces stories about "King Arthur" which might have been distantly inspired by a sub-Roman British war leader who, if he existed at all, was not a King. Swiss nationalism pivots around "William Tell", a story with no historical proof whatsoever and almost certainly pure fiction.

The passage you are critiquing talks about belief in a shared singular history: it does not assert that the belief is factually accurate. As for whether such beliefs arose from the 17th century or in the early 20th (about which I have no position), the article should follow Reliable sources only. If it does not, it should be improved, and indeed it carries prominent banners at the top of the Article and Talk pages saying so. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 13:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The Reconstruction of Nations by Timothy Snyder is a great book about the origin of Polish, Lithuanian and Ukrainian nationalisms. All of which, according to the author, only started to emerge in the 19th century, creating national foundation myths that went back to the Middle Ages and skipped the Early Modern period. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Arguably German and Italian nationalism didn't really start to exist in their modern forms until the 19th century. We have an article Romantic nationalism... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:35, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

In the section Ukrainian language § History of the spoken language we read, "During the 19th century, a revival of Ukrainian self-identification manifested in the literary classes of both Russian-Empire Dnieper Ukraine and Austrian Galicia." The reactions of Tsarist Russia – persecuting expressions of Ukrainian culture and especially language, banning the teaching of Ukrainian from schools, a ban on Ukrainian-language books, public performances and lectures, and so on – did little to suppress the nationalistic sentiments. As our article states, "By the time of the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the collapse of Austro-Hungary in 1918, Ukrainians were ready to openly develop a body of national literature, institute a Ukrainian-language educational system, and form an independent state (the Ukrainian People's Republic, shortly joined by the West Ukrainian People's Republic)." So, while one can question the use of the term "revival" in the first sentence, it appears that the roots of Ukrainian nationalism are older than the October Revolution. The sentence quoted above about "[t]he origins of modern Ukrainian nationalism" is somewhat ambiguous. I think it is true that the intelligentsia promoting Ukrainian nationalism viewed the Cossack rebellions as a national(istic) uprising, in which case these are the claimed origins (not claimed by Wikipedia, but by Ukrainian nationalists). For all I know this viewpoint may well be a myth invented centuries later, but without reliable sources stating so we cannot put the alternative point of view in the article.  --Lambiam 19:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

January 9

What is this folk song?

• Transferred to Entertainment desk.

January 10

Is there a world map where sea and seashore pixels are color-coded by when Europeans learned which pixels had land?

Or a map of the Americas with the coast (including navigable rivers and straits) is color-coded by when Europe completely lost all hope there might be a navigable route to Asia through this pixel or one with only a short portage of a few miles? The canoe-able rivers could be color-coded by when the dream few miles portage to Asia was disproved. A sub-few miles Missouri catchment portage to Asia wasn't completely ruled out till the 19th century if I remember correctly. So Missouri River pixels could be colored accordingly. Alternatively when each river mile became known to Europe could be colored by when that happened so the colors would change as you go up the river from the Mississippi to where Lewis and Clark got out and walked. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe Colin McEvedy's "Penguin Atlas of Modern History" has several maps showing which parts of the world were known to European exploration during specific years (I can't turn up my copy of it at the moment). They don't focus on seacoasts and rivers, however. Anyway, French explorers Joliet and Marquette went from the Great Lakes to the upper Mississippi long before Lewis and Clarke... AnonMoos (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

They completely missed Hawaii till 1778 so it must've taken long to prove they've "found" all the say 1+ square mi islands in the ocean under 30 degrees from equator, much less 40, 50 or 60. Yes I'm aware the Great Lakes portage was far from "new" in 1805, the Great Falls, Montana portage was to Europeans though. 18 miles to bypass the falls. When I see pre-accurate longitude world maps I can't always tell which is real and which is made up so that book would be useful. They'd draw Baja as an island when they just assumed and things like that so I can't tell which parts they'd actually seen and which they filled in to reduce/avoid blank parts. I even noticed the latitude of my location can be shit even though they'd already been there, marked every degree on the map and latitude was the one coordinate they didn't have to guess before Harrison chronometers. They'd sometimes stretch longitude so much it's hard to tell where's where, with a book like that historians would've already read their ship logs and stuff and correlated as best as they could. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Accurate longitudes were available long before the invention of the marine chronometer: lunar distances, observation of lunar eclipses, the moons of Jupiter. The problem was that such methods didn't work so well on a ship. Many coasts were only mapped from a ship, without going on land, and in those cases the longitude could only be estimated from latitude and the direction the ship was sailing. And in cloudy weather, both latitude and direction became uncertain.

The reason why it took so long to find Hawaii is its latitude. The 20s were unpopular for sailing, as the winds there are poor. Eastbound ships used the 40s, with reliable and strong winds, westbound ships often stayed closer to the equator. Add to this the routes ships took without reliable longitudes: they first headed to the latitude of their destination, then continued straight east or west until they reached it. The popular places on either side of the Northern Pacific were California (north of Hawaii) and the Philippines (south of Hawaii), reinforcing the preference already set by the winds. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

I thought that's probably it (Luna orbits ~30x slower than it sets, Jupiter probably even harder). Ah it's in the [[horse latitudes]]? It's so rainforesty some parts I hadn't thought of that. I suppose I would try to stay in the core of the trade winds if I was going to the Philippines. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Save classic music books please

Classic music books often have some properties that are rarer in more modern music books that I can easily take as meaning that modern society sometimes hides facts from children:

1. Modern music arrangements often favor sharp keys over flat keys with 2 or more flats in the key signature.
2. The chorus of "Good Night Ladies" is taken as a song of its own called "Merrily We Roll Along".
3. "Lucy Locket" is considered to have a tune of so-so-la-la-so-so-mi-mi-so-so-la-la-so-mi as opposed to its traditional tune that is almost identical to "Yankee Doodle".

Is there any way we can save classic music arrangements?? (This includes balancing sharp and flat keys, treating "Good Night Ladies" as a song with a verse and a chorus, and giving "Lucy Locket" the tune of Yankee Doodle. It can also include any other special feature you think can be put in the position that I am putting these in.) Georgia guy (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not a musicologist, but it's interesting you posted this today, as I was just making my way through the Great American Songbook as I do now and then, and found myself thinking along these same lines, as the newer, more modern renditions make analogous changes to the lyrics and arrangements to better suit the ensembles and audiences of today. Have you considered reviewing our articles on the early music revival and historically informed performances? There's a lot of arguments and counterarguments in those articles that you could apply to your endeavor to save classic music books. Viriditas (talk) 09:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Have any words from that book become offensive in some sheet music? Maybe land where my fathers died to gender-neutral? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm finding this question really confusing. How does arranging a tune in C major or G major "hide facts from children"? AndyJones (talk) 13:19, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

User:AndyJones, it appears to hide the existence of keys with more than one flat in their key signature. Georgia guy (talk) 17:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

This question puzzles me too. Could you give us an example of a "more modern music book" that "hides facts from children"? An ISBN for example would be useful. There have long been simplified versions of songs in children's music books; "making it easier for beginning students" is not the same as "hiding facts from children". --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 18:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Jpgordon, how are sharp keys easier for beginning piano students than flat keys?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

English, Welsh & Scottish people all British?

Are English, Welsh & Scottish people altogether called British? Or just the English? 86.130.185.152 (talk) 20:59, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes to the first. About half of the population of Northern Ireland would also describe themselves as British, the other half would call themselves Irish though most are legally also British citizens, as are people in all four countries who are of recent overseas origin.

There is a tendency (no more than that) for English people to feel their "Britishness" is more important than their "Englishness", and for Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish people to feel the opposite: some of the latter may resent being called "British" rather than their specific country identity.

The above are broad generalisations: there are details and complications, about some of which there can be differences of opinion. See British national identity for some of them. The subject can be a sensitive one. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 22:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

What about the Manx? Abductive (reasoning) 11:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom, it is a self-governing British Crown Dependency. However citizenship is covered by UK law, and Manx people are classed as British citizens. Make of that what you will! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Do they think of themselves as British? I seem to recall reading somewhere that Gibraltarians consider themselves British. Has there been any polling? Abductive (reasoning) 11:26, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Go and ask, it's a nice place for a holiday! :-) Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:29, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

I can't, so I will wait here for an answer. Abductive (reasoning) 11:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

In the 2002 Gibraltar sovereignty referendum, 98.97% of Gibraltarians voted against shared sovereignty with Spain, by inference stating that they wanted to remain British. Whether they consider themselves more Gibraltarian than British is a question which seems not to have been asked (independence for Gibraltar is not a legal option; if the UK relinquishes Gibraltar, it has to be returned to Spain). Alansplodge (talk) 18:15, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

It's a complicated question, as you might expect from four countries cobbled together with varying degrees of coercion, but they are legally all British citizens, as are the residents of the British Overseas Territories. How they identify themselves varies;

Most people living in Britain say that they identify equally with their British and their national identity. Almost half, (46%), say this is the case, followed by 37% who identify more with a Scottish/Welsh/English/Irish identity, and 21% who identify more as British.... Over half, (56%), of Scots say they identify with Scottishness more than Britishness. UK: National identity in Britain. Alansplodge (talk) 18:09, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Sidenote: If You're in Corsica, among Corsicans (actual Corsicans) and say You're in France, they'll shun You. I bet that's the case among some communities in Scotland or Wales, if You said they were British they might respond similarly. --Ouro (blah blah) 22:12, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Similarly, some Native Hawaiians don't think of themselves as Americans. Why Hawaiians don’t call themselves American' Alansplodge (talk) 11:33, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

January 11

Berkeley Public Schools Fund

What exactly is the relation of the Berkeley Public Schools Fund to the Berkeley Unified School District (BUSD)? Is it organizationally independent? --KnightMove (talk) 08:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Is this writeup by them insufficient? Abductive (reasoning) 11:12, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure. For example, this webpage of BUSD inviting people to volunteer links to a form on the fund's website (although the form seems gone by now). This seems to imply close links in organization rather than just a supporting role of the fund. --KnightMove (talk) 12:08, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

People seem to believe that there is a "separation of NGO and government" rule, like the real separation of church and state; only right-wingers and Putin want to weaken NGOs. Abductive (reasoning) 12:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

In the United States, non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that supplement or replace governmental services are not allowed to be partisan. They cannot directly support a political party or a specific candidate. Therefore, they cannot be Democrat or Republican. They can, however, support an agenda. They can support a liberal agenda, which would result in opposition from conservative people. They can support a conservative agenda, which would result in opposition from liberal people. Your claim that ONLY conservatives oppose NGOs is not based in the real world. It may be that case from your limited viewpoint. But, in a nationwide viewpoint, there are plenty of examples of conservative NGOs being opposed by liberal people. Perhaps it is different in other countires. Are there examples of countries where an NGO is only allowed to be liberal, which would limit opposition to conservatives? 97.82.165.112 (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course they are allowed to be partisan, under the 1st Amendment. Moreover, only right-wingers attempt to prevent people that they are opposed to from expressing themselves, but they make sure to always allow themselves all options. Abductive (reasoning) 15:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, this has nothing to do with my question, and I don't need further information - so we can close here. --KnightMove (talk) 15:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

 – --KnightMove (talk) 15:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Micro-Carillon?

What is a carillon in the context of a portable musical instrument played by a musician on the concert stage in the late 19th-century? (article Francis Houssemayne du Boulay has a link to one use but there are others) Doug butler (talk) 23:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, my reading of the newspaper cited in that passage doesn't necessarily indicate to me that the instrument has to be portable; I think it could just be your standard, run-of-the-mill carillon. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The traveling carillons are not unheard of. --Ouro (blah blah) 08:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

You may be referring to a Celesta? Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Chimes, also are the good choice for one willing to spare his hypothenar muscles. --Askedonty (talk) 09:24, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Possibly, the reporter used the term for a glockenspiel. From our article on the instrument: "In German, a carillon is also called a Glockenspiel, and in French, the glockenspiel is sometimes called a carillon." Playing the xylophone and the glockenspiel are very similar skills, so being a skilled player on both is less surprising than excelling in playing the xylophone (with mallets) and a carillon or even a chime by forcefully hitting keys.  --Lambiam 09:27, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Glockenspiel makes sense, for the reasons you advance, also fits the period. Thanks all. Doug butler (talk) 09:35, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

On searching further, I find "Mr Du Boulay again favored the audience with a sample of his versatility as an instrumentalist, performing "The Blue Bells of Scotland" with a number of variations upon the Carillon, a musical device resembling an arrangement of gun-barrels, but from which he produced the most exquisite melody." So, seemingly, a variety of glockenspiel made not from slabs but tubes, possibly stopped at one end. Doug butler (talk) 10:19, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

See also Tubular bells, of course. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 10:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

On French Wikipedia: fr:Carillon tubulaire. I could easily see someone just shortening the name to carillon. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Rather a generic for then visually formless and undistinguishable idiophones ([12], [13]) --Askedonty (talk) 18:30, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It would appear that both the carillon article and the Wiktionary French entry on carillon need to be updated with the glockenspiel meaning. Thanks for pointing this out. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

January 12

Time of day boundaries

Concepts such as noon and midnight are well defined but when does afternoon become evening and evening, night? Oddly it seems the transition from night to morning is not as vague, at least in English, as "dawn" is from first light to the end of sunrise. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I suspect these depend upon culture, context, latitude and time of year. For me (an indigenous Brit) evening usually starts around sunset or 6:00 pm, whichever is earlier, and night follows dusk at the end of twilight, which typically lasts for about half an hour after sunset (and yes, I know that Civil, Nautical and Astronomical twilight are different, in practice I am most interested in the last). This means that for me it can be simultaneously evening and night, depending on context. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 10:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

At my latitude at this time of year "morning" starts well before dawn. "Evening" seems to start after dinner. Folly Mox (talk) 11:10, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Day#Boundaries has some info. I believe that some cultures (Islam?) using an evening-evening definition for a day use various astronomical observations, such as so many stars visible, to define the change point. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

According to Islamic calendar#Days of the week, Islam uses sunset, whereas Zmanim#Evening suggests that Judaism is less certain, though 'A third Talmudic passage (Shabbat 35b) states that nightfall occurs when three medium-sized stars become visible'. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

And there are a whole host of rules about when sabbath/iftar times are to be observed above the Arctic Circle. Before people travelled so far afield, there was (and still is) much debate in Judaism about the meaning of the term "between the two evenings" which governed start and finish times. 2A02:C7B:11B:9000:102:E620:5DF:9CB1 (talk) 15:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Artist Imre Góth

He lived in the UK and it would be great to have an English language version of this: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B3th_Imre 2A00:23C8:C106:7E01:4D9C:C271:1625:8244 (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Why not do it? Wikipedia:Articles for creation explains how. 2A02:C7B:11B:9000:102:E620:5DF:9CB1 (talk) 15:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Four men charged over theft of £4.8m gold toilet from Blenheim Palace

[14] "The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said on Monday it had authorised criminal charges against four men, who will appear at Oxford magistrates court on 28 November."

That was last year. Can someone tell me if there's an update on this? Is it ongoing or were they released? Or something else? Preferably with a WP-usable source. And if you haven't heard of America (Cattelan) before, I recommend that article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

There are news reports of the court appearances here and here. The accused men were bailed and were due to appear at Oxford Crown Court on 4 January, but I can't find any reports of that appearance. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)