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February 24

linked

Moses urged them to "don their linked war-coats." It is from an Old English book. What does 'linked' mean in this context? Thanks in advance. Omidinist (talk) 11:48, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's from a translation by Stopford A. Brooke of Exodus (poem), see here. "linked war-coats" means coats of chain-mail.

With the blare of brass at the break of day
All the folk to gather and the frack to rouse,
Don their linkèd war-coats, dream of noble deeds,
Bear their blickering armour, with their banners call
Nearer to the strand the squadrons! Swiftly then the watchmen
Now bethought them of the war-cry. Hastened was the host!
At the sound of shawms, on the sloping hills,
Struck their tents the sailors.

DuncanHill (talk) 12:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's it. Many thanks DuncanHill. Omidinist (talk) 12:16, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My pleasure - I enjoyed looking that up. The phrase "don their linkèd war-coats" rang a bell. I must have read that 40-odd years ago, and never again since - but I remembered the meaning, and that it was a translation of one of those Anglo-Saxon versions of something either Classical or Biblical. After that google was a doddle! But as I say, a great pleasure to revisit the poem. DuncanHill (talk) 21:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

French words

If a word moins is pronounced /mwɛ̃/, how would a word pronounced as /moins/ be spelled? The closest example which I have found is nonsense world moïnesse, but it would be pronounced as /mɔinɛs/, so that the first e would be pronounced. If word chante is pronounced as /ʃɑ̃t/, then chanete would be pronounced as /ʃant/. --40bus (talk) 21:49, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume moïnsse or moïnce would be enough, given ïn is not a known digraph for a nasal vowel. Nardog (talk) 22:00, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An IPA translator gives the word moïnsse as /mɔˈɛ̃s/. And I didn't know that ⟨ss⟩ and be used also next to another consonant. --40bus (talk) 22:09, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You could try doubling the "n" -- moïnnce -- though I don't think this would absolutely guarantee the intended pronunciation. AnonMoos (talk) 23:13, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A final /-ins/ (and anything in /-nC/, where /C/ is any consonant) occurs only in non-assimilated loanwords and foreign names. Then, it's normal that they should lack a native and natural way to spell it. --Theurgist (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, French seems to lack a native /ɔɪ/ diphthong, anyway. /Vj/ is possible for stops, I guess. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In South of France "moins" is pronounced by some people: \mwɛ̃s\. One can invent a French word and then try to pronounce it. Everyone knows that French is not spoken as it is written. I never read/heard the world "moïnesse". If I find it, for me there is a typo for "moinesse" (=female monk, old world, now "moniale") which I - French native speaker, Parisian - pronounce \mwa.nɛs\. About the non existent word "chanete", if I have to pronounce it I would say /ʃa.nɛt/ or /ʃa.nɛte/ or /ʃa.nete/, but for me an accent is missing or a double "t". – AldoSyrt (talk) 17:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Say, speak, talk, tell

Say, speak, talk, tell: Native speakers have no difficulty in choosing which verb to use in which context, and know that they are not generally interchangeable, but newbies to the language often struggle. Prima facie evidence is many of the questions we get on this ref desk.

Is there a handy guide that illuminates the differences and provides comfort for the afflicted? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A search for say vs. speak vs. tell vs. talk is fruitful. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 01:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

February 25

First names that are in the Bible

Why are some Bible names rarer as Gentile Anglophone first names than it seems like they should be? Lots of (Davids, Daves, Davies), much fewer Solomons; lots of (Daniels, Dans, Dannies), fewer (Zekes, Ezekiels); lots of Jonahs, much fewer of the rarest minor prophet; lots of (Tims, Timmies, Timothies), much fewer Tituses. Then there's some that were way less old-fashioned in the 19th century like Jebediah or Ichabod. Why are they old-timey but not John or Andrew? (Some of these aren't even well-known Bible characters. Maybe Ichabod was popularized by that NYC suburb headless ghost though?) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some are kind of disguised (James from Jacob etc). From the seventeenth century through the 19th century, some versions of English-speaking Protestantism promoted intensive Bible-reading, just as much of the Old Testament as of the New Testament. That was the context in which the title character in Silas Marner named the little girl "Hephzibah" (after his sister). Since the 1920s, while many Christians are still certainly devout, I don't think that people who are highly-familiar with the text of the Bible from long reading of all parts of it are as culturally influential as they were during the 19th century... AnonMoos (talk) 02:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Names of Christian saints (several Saint Johns, Saint Andrew, Saint Timothy, Saint Peter, Saint Paul, ...) named in the New Testament get a leg up, being popular also among Catholics, unlike many Old Testament names that were familiar to Bible-reading Protestants but not so much to Catholics. David is very prominent in the Bible, not only as the legendary king of Israel and the spunky hero kid who slew Goliath, but also by Jesus being said to be of the House of David. During the period when it was a tradition to name children after grandparents or other family members of older generations, the relative frequencies of these names were subject to random drift, so it is hard to attach significance to the ranking of the less common ones. --Lambiam 05:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are cycles in popularity as well. Seth and Caleb became popular again in the U.S. in the last three decades, after almost disappearing for most of the 20th century. Abraham used to be quite common but is now rare. And as mentioned above, there is a big difference between Catholics and others, as Catholics tended to prefer naming their children after saints, which excludes a lot of Old Testament names, which were in turn associated with either protestants or Jews. Xuxl (talk) 14:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One fun one is the popularity of "Joshua". Until the late 1960s it was uncommon. 138 per million; rank 763. Then in the 70s and 80s it takes off; over 10,000 per million, rank 7. I found it personally annoying that my unusual name became commonplace. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that, Abraham is possibly my country's best and most popular leader (born 1809 elected 1860) but sounds old-timey or Jewish now. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, Abraham appears to be more common now than ever before, according to tools such as this which use Social Security data. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the parents who want few schoolmates to share the name just jump on ones that get too rare (or invent a new one or spelling like Boston or Flyrence). If the other parent wants a traditional name or major Bible or Quran character then Abraham still works. And sometimes a name becomes super-popular for awhile like Michael/Mike. Maybe cause Jordan, Tyson and Michael Jackson? But not Elvis or Ringo. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that Michael was already near peak in 1970 when the Jackson 5 just started getting popular when Jordan was six and Tyson was three. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know a 13 year-old called Micah, and there are a fair number of kids called Eli and Isaac now in England, that would have been unheard of a couple of decades ago (I suspect some US influence here). Meanwhile, some New Testament names like John, Mark and Paul have gone out of fashion. John used to be the most common boys' name in England, but allegedly fell out of favour after John Major's premiership. Alansplodge (talk) 18:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 2004-19 New York football thrower was Eli & the 2006-8 NY basketball coach was Isaiah. The biggest star of NYC baseball and football right now are both Aarons. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

However, I don't see Jehoshaphat making a comeback anytime soon, no matter how hard he jumps. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:43, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of cool unwieldy names in there that'll probably never get big. Like Mahershalalhashbaz and Nebuchadnezzar. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You just need to be patient, like Job. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One fun one is the popularity of "Joshua". Until the late 1960s it was uncommon. 138 per million; rank 763. Then in the 70s and 80s it takes off; over 10,000 per million, rank 7. I found it personally annoying that my unusual name became commonplace. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that, Abraham is possibly my country's best and most popular leader (born 1809 elected 1860) but sounds old-timey or Jewish now. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, Abraham appears to be more common now than ever before, according to tools such as this which use Social Security data. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the parents who want few schoolmates to share the name just jump on ones that get too rare (or invent a new one or spelling like Boston or Flyrence). If the other parent wants a traditional name or major Bible or Quran character then Abraham still works. And sometimes a name becomes super-popular for awhile like Michael/Mike. Maybe cause Jordan, Tyson and Michael Jackson? But not Elvis or Ringo. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that Michael was already near peak in 1970 when the Jackson 5 just started getting popular when Jordan was six and Tyson was three. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know a 13 year-old called Micah, and there are a fair number of kids called Eli and Isaac now in England, that would have been unheard of a couple of decades ago (I suspect some US influence here). Meanwhile, some New Testament names like John, Mark and Paul have gone out of fashion. John used to be the most common boys' name in England, but allegedly fell out of favour after John Major's premiership. Alansplodge (talk) 18:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 2004-19 New York football thrower was Eli & the 2006-8 NY basketball coach was Isaiah. The biggest star of NYC baseball and football right now are both Aarons. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

However, I don't see Jehoshaphat making a comeback anytime soon, no matter how hard he jumps. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:43, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of cool unwieldy names in there that'll probably never get big. Like Mahershalalhashbaz and Nebuchadnezzar. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I remember my surprise when I learned that Azor is a biblical name. In my native Polish, it is a common name for a dog. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an echo in here? Clarityfiend (talk) 11:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC) [reply]

I will try to say something new. Emma was my maternal grandmother's given name. She was born in Idaho in 1901. When she died in 1974, Emma was considered quaint, rare and old fashioned. Then things changed. In the 21st century, it is consistently a top five name for girls in the US. Cullen328 (talk) 01:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Polish sentence

This sentence (without the Polish diacritics...) talking about an election result: "Natomiast jedyny kandydat Komitet skupil okolo swej listy 359 glosow." ... I'm struggling with the word "around". Does it imply the list got approximately 359 votes? Or that the candidate gathered precisely 359 votes around his list? -- Soman (talk) 11:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thinks it's the latter; the first meaning would need to be written "okolo 359 glosow" (note that I don't speak Polish, but that's how it would work out in Russian). Xuxl (talk) 14:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The definitions on Wiktionary of około seem to imply a sense of inexactitude. --Lambiam 20:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Xuxl is correct, it's the latter meaning: the candidate gathered an exact number of 359 votes around his list. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks! --Soman (talk) 10:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

February 26

English numbers

Why does English, unlike German and Dutch, place units before tens in compound numbers? --40bus (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It didn't in Old English, see Old English/Numbers. I found this (access to the full article through the Wikipedia Library):

From unit-and-ten to ten-before-unit order in the history of English numerals

Alansplodge (talk) 21:20, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you talking about poetic uses such as "Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I remember people forty years ago who would normally say "five-and-twenty to ten" for times. They may still be alive. ColinFine (talk) 11:54, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

English four+teen, German vier+zehn, Dutch veer+tien: unit count takes the first position in all. But English twenty+four, German vier+und+zwanzig, Dutch vier+en+twintig: in the English numeral the units are placed in last position, not "before tens" as you wrote. The switch from the Old English "Germanic" order to the current one may have been influenced by (Anglo Norman) French, which has that order for the numerals from 17 onwards (with some irregularities, such as sixante quatorse for 74^[1]). --Lambiam 22:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lambiam: Standard spelling is "soixante-quatorze". All French number words from 71 to 79 and 91 to 99 use "-teen" analogous forms... AnonMoos (talk) 03:57, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anglo-Norman did not have a standard spelling. --Lambiam 11:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't notice that distinction, but it's still the modern French standard spelling which many millions use every day (unlike medieval Anglo-Norman French). AnonMoos (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, French numbers are a unique kind of weird above 69. I wouldn't give them much notice. Pablothepenguin (talk) 12:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not all French speakers have such weird numbers. I remember seeing a documentary on Belgian television about events in the 1990s, where they simply said nonante-sept instead of quatre-vingt-dix-sept. PiusImpavidus (talk) 13:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC, in France Septante is used for the Septuagint, but not generally for the number. As PiusImpavidus alludes to, the continuation of the Latin decades is rather a Belgian and Swiss thing. Double sharp (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In an early Asterix there is a walk-on by "le druide belge Septantesix", a gag that I did not get for many years! —Tamfang (talk) 00:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I mentioned French is because of its influence on the evolution of English. Old English only had the order fēoƿer and tƿēntiġ. The other order makes its first appearance in Middle English. The question was why English has this order, so the French order is potentially relevant. --Lambiam 20:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a German association that wants to change the German order to be like English: de:Zwanzigeins (the name is probably self-explanatory).

Double_sharp -- That would certainly give a different rhythm to "Neunundneunzig Luftballons".

-- AnonMoos (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to this source, in Czech both orders are possible, but looking at Czech Wikipedia suggests that tens-before-ones (like English) is more common. Double sharp (talk) 14:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Omniglot also indicates both orders as possible in Kashubian. Double sharp (talk) 13:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When I started working in Norway in 1982 both systems were in regular use, with a slight preference for the old form, e.g. fem og tuve (five and twenty) for 25. this research shows that 15 years later not a lot had changed. I was working in Bergen, where there were a good sprinkling of nynorsk speakers and quite a few Bergensers with their own dialect. I've not lived there since 2010 so I don't know if things have changed by now. Mikenorton (talk) 18:18, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

February 27

What language is this?

Hi everyone,

I was driven around by a taxi driver a few months back, and he taught me how to say "thank you" in his native language.

Here are some things I know about this language:

It is probably from Central Asia, the Caucasus, or the Middle East, given the man's physical appearance (light-skinned).
It sounded most like an Iranian language, but I couldn't be sure. It was probably not Turkic, and definitely not Arabic.
There was a distinct 'Ayn sound in some of the words.

The phrase for "thank you" sounded like the following:

Yırd El-Âwê.

However, this is the best I could remember from memory, so the actual phrasing might be a bit different. I am good at languages and linguistics but my memory of unfamiliar foreign language phrases is not perfect. It could have been between three and five syllables. 64.231.206.241 (talk) 18:14, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to see what happened, I pasted the above transcription into Google Translate. It guessed that the language was "Kurdish (Kurmanji)", but it just repeated the words on the English side, as usual when it can't translate something. And when I then asked it to translate "Thank you" from English into that language, it said "Spas dikim." So I don't think I believe that language identification. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 12:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Consider the possibility that the phrase does not mean "Thank you" but rather something mildly obscene or in some other way humorous. Playing such jokes on foreigners has a long history worldwide. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.126.225.254 (talk) 13:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The articles Voiced pharyngeal fricative and Voiceless pharyngeal fricative list about twenty languages, each. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perusing the translations given for thank you in Wiktionary, the best match seems to be from a variety of Arabic, see يعطيك العافية (pronounced /yiʕ.tˤiːk al.ʕaːf.ja/). 124.148.237.250 (talk) 11:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the transcription of Gulf Arabic. It doesn't seem to be IPA. What would 3 signify? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AnonMoos replied on my talk page. It's apparently Arabic chat alphabet (which however seems to be too informal and non-standardized to really be used on Wiktionary). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

February 28

Cyrillic inscription

In the music video for Kosheen - Catch a Cyrillic inscription appears on the wall poster seemingly reading ОКТАР ВЕЛИКО ПАТУ! Google Translate suggests it's Serbian and should be октобар велико пату meaning "October, the great day!" (apparently referencing October Revolution, judging by the image of the Aurora cruiser below). What language this actually is and is it an accidental gross typo or macaronic? Brandmeister^talk 22:38, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the first word on the poster is ОКТЯР, which doesn't help much. Perhaps some letters are missing from the beginning of the word, but I can't find a word that rhymes with октяр. The word велико can be standard Russian --Lambiam 12:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a native Russian speaker, I can say 100% this isn't Russian. Just like GTranslate, I thought of Serbian, but there's an odd thing: Google translates allegedly Serbian октобар велико пату as "October is a big day", but "day" in Serbian is дан, so I can't make heads or tails of this. Could be an attempt to emulate Russian by non-native speakers with the meaning of "October is a great date/month". Brandmeister^talk 13:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be possible that someone has mistranscribed ДАТУ as ПАТУ when creating the poster? If they've rendered ОКТЯБРЬ as ОКТЯР, I suppose anything's fair game. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, looks like that... Brandmeister^talk 08:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We still need to understand why the accusative case of дата is used. "ОТПРАЗДНУЙТЕ ОКТЯБРЬ, ВЕЛИКО ДАТУ!"? --Lambiam 14:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only answer for me is that it's an imitation of Russian for some reason. At 1:00 the inscription is seen in full, so yeah, ПАТУ is likely ДАТУ - something like "[celebrate] the great date of October" ("October" is often used metonymically in Russian to refer to October Revolution). Brandmeister^talk 15:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not Serbian, and it's not Bulgarian, for that matter (and none of the related Slavic languages, as far as I can tell). As you supposed, the mist likely answer is that it's a near-gibberish imitation of Russian. No such user (talk) 12:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

February 29

Paraprosdokian

"He was at his best when the going was good" is listed in Paraprosdokian#Examples. How is this a paraprosdokian? What are the expected and reinterpreted meanings of the first part? Nardog (talk) 11:25, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The more likely second-half would be something like "when the going was bad" or "when things were tough." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'He was at his best' implies some outstanding quality of effort or achievement; 'when the going was good' is when everybody should do their best, implying he was nothing special after all? It does seem a weak example. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 11:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The expected phrase might be; "He was at his best when the going was tough" (or "rough", or "hardest"), some random examples in print are like this (of JFK), or this (of Ernest Shackleton), or this (of Boris Yeltsin), or this (of Fernie Flaman), or this (of James B. Craig). So to say "when the going was good" instead would surprise most readers (but not the OP obviously), and is implying that he was useless in difficult situations. Alansplodge (talk) 12:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another example is found in the film Starman, when Jeff Bridges's alien says, "Shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst." Deor (talk) 14:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I get that's the joke. I was wondering if there was an alternative interpretation because, if that's the joke, there's no reinterpretation of "He was at his best" that occurs, and only the expectation for the second part is subverted (whereas in "I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it", one is forced to reconsider the interpretation of the present perfect). It's not a paraprosdokian then, as I suspected. Nardog (talk) 00:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Up until the poison in the tail, the audience will interpret the first part as eulogistic. The final word forces a reappraisal, which, one might argue, is an illocutionary reinterpretation. --Lambiam 01:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 1

Kahulla

Hello, while transcribing on wikisource, more precisely on that page for context, I found the word "kahulla". ("kahullas", but I think that is a plural.)

I could not find any mention of that word anywhere.

The book is from 1850, so it might be an archaic form.

Does anyone know what that means?

(I do not know if this is where I should be asking that, sorry if it isn't.) Alien333 (talk) 08:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to provide a little more context, the author is Frances Sargent Osgood. The poem and the word make me think of Hawaii, but I don't see a connection in her article and that feeling may be completely wrong. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this edition, it is spelled "Kahullah's", the genitive of a name, which makes more grammatical sense than the adjective form in the edition on wikisource. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like an Arabic (Muslim) given name, such as Abdullah, Bahaullah and Najibullah, but several common nouns also end in -ullah, meaning "of God". I do not find uses of the word as a given name other than perhaps in the poem. To me, the interpretation as the genitive of a name does not make sense in the context; if we interpret "Kahullah's deck" as a noun phrase, then where is the verb? The word "bright"? The poet is American, but the use of the word as a verb is British. Will the deceased girl's hair brighten the deck of Kahullah? What does that mean? I find a poetic subject–object inversion, helping to maintain the rhyme, more plausible: bright kahullahs, whatever these may be – presumably something specific to the yonder spirit world – will deck (cover or decorate) the girl's hair. If the rendering "kahullahs" was a typographical error in the 1846 edition^[2] of Osgood's poems, it was not corrected in the 1848 edition.^[3] --Lambiam 13:11, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the possible inversion now I see and do agree that is is more plausible. In both interpretations the comma after "stream" seems out of place, doesn't it? Or does it help to identify the hair's stream as the object rather than thhe subject of the phrase? --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Running "kahullah" through google translate (using detect language) gives "his shoulders"(Arabic). Gender aside, it would fit the context. Shall bright(bare) kahullahs(shoulders) deck. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 13:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The deceased person is feminine, so we'd need something meaning "her shoulders". --Lambiam 14:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since, in the next lines, the poet envisions wreaths of rainbow shells around the little girl's arms and neck, it is semantically more likely that bright somethings (perhaps some kind of flowers?) enliven her dark hair. Spirit-fruit, kahullahs and wreaths of rainbow shells are said to constitute "fragrant bowers" amid which the child's spirit can play on. --Lambiam 14:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The little girl whose burial inspired the flow of Osgood's poetic vein (see the epigraph of the poem^[4]) was Tamahoogah, a minor character in a story entitled "William Burton, the boy who would be a sailor" by L. Maria Child, published in her collection of children's stories Flowers for Children, Part III (1844).^[5] The setting is an island "in about the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and a few degrees north of the equator". This makes any connection to Arabic less likely. --Lambiam 14:04, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great find! The islands are identified as the "Mulgrave Group", i.e. Mili Atoll and Knox Atoll in the Marshall Islands, which would make the word Micronesian. I haven't found the word in the "William Burton" story yet, but wouldn't be surprised if it was lurking in there somewhere. --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC) Nope, looks like it is not. --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Voyages of Captain Cook mentions that Tongans wore "necklaces, made of the fruit of the pandanus, and various sweet-smelling flowers, which go under the general name of kahulla". Perhaps Osgood, who's referring to hair ornaments rather than necklaces (those are in the next lines), is making a distinction between adornments of vegetable origin in the hair and ones of conchological origin on the neck and arms. Deor (talk) 02:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This answers the question. I don't think we need to pay much weight to putative distinctions made by the poet, but can interpret her use as meaning a wreath or garland of fruit and sweet-smelling flowers, regardless of which part of the body it adornes. After all, her use of the term also ignores that Tongan is part of the group of Polynesian languages while the Marshallese language that would have been spoken on Child's Mulgrave Islands, some 1,000 miles apart from Tonga, belongs to the Micronesian languages. Consider that Hawaiʻian is also a Polynesian language, closely related to Tongan, yet has a different term: lei. So it is somewhat unlikely that Tongan and Marshallese, not that closely related, would have the same word for such wreaths. --Lambiam 11:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to you all!

I am amazed by what you reference desk wizards can find on such an obscure thing in less than two days. Alien333 (talk) 13:20, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I was going to add it to wiktionary, and then noticed on some Tongan pages mention of the Churchward english-tongan dictionary, which is available for borrow on IA (tongandictionary0000chur). It mentions, on page 242, "kahoa", but not "kahulla". kahoa is said to mean necklace or garland. As it seems to be the same word, I am wondering, did Cook and Osgood get the spelling wrong, or did the word just change over time? (the Churchward dictionary is from 1959) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alien333 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have a suspicion that when Cook reached Tonga, the Tongans did not have a spelling for their language. Note that the first written record of the name of Hawaiʻi, by Cook's second lieutenant James King, was spelled "Owhyhee".^[6] --Lambiam 23:34, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tocharian /n/

From an uncited part of Tocharian languages:

/n/ is transcribed by two different letters in the Tocharian alphabet depending on position. Based on the corresponding letters in Sanskrit, these are transcribed ṃ (word-finally, including before certain clitics) and n (elsewhere), but ṃ represents /n/, not /m/.

Since the sound's position determines what letter is used, why are these two glyphs considered different letters, rather than one being seen as a variant of each other? Hebrew's sofit forms, and final forms of "S" (ſ rather than s) and "Σ" (ς rather than σ), are considered variants rather than separate letters, and when Tocharian was discovered, it didn't have any living speakers to argue for them to be considered separate letters. Tocharian script#Table of Tocharian letters doesn't answer my question, since every consonant letter appears to represent a different sound. Nyttend (talk) 22:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything about Tocharian script specifically, but generally in Indic alphabets Anusvara is a diacritic indicating nasalization, which would be hard to visually unify with the ordinary alphabet letter which writes [n] or [na]... AnonMoos (talk) 01:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 2

What word is Eeyore misremembering?

In chapter five of A. A. Milne's The House at Pooh Corner, Eeyore says that Christopher Robin "instigorates Knowledge". It's made clear that he is misremembering a term used by Christopher Robin, but what is that term? My best guesses are "instigates" and "invigorates", but both would seem very unusual.

Here is some context: "What does Christopher Robin do in the mornings? He learns. He becomes Educated. He instigorates—I think that is the word he mentioned, but I may be referring to something else—he instigorates Knowledge. In my small way I also, if I have the word right, am—am doing what he does. That, for instance, is——" Quickener (talk) 06:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps "investigates"? Eeyore's memory can have been befuddled by contamination with "instigates" and "invigorates", which, although presumably unfamiliar to Eeyore and unlikely to have been used by Christopher Robin, are words he may have overheard being spoken by grown-ups. --Lambiam 11:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking up Wiktionary, some other guesses might be "instills" or "inculcates". I have a hunch that the prefix in- would indicate a meaning of Christopher Robin absorbing knowledge in some way. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Instills" doesn't make much sense, and I highly doubt Milne would have used such an obscure word as "inculcates" in a children's book. "Investigates" would have been the first thing that came to my mind as well. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is also the possibility that Eeyore has remembered correctly, and that it is Christopher Robin who has mistakenly malaproped a mangled portmanteau. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.127.56.230 (talk) 18:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly a potentially useful word, and though its exact meaning is currently unclear, more frequent use would probably result in a consensus arising. We should strive to use it at every possible opportunity, and thus ensure its future encromulation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I propose the meaning "to instigate an invigorating investigation". --Lambiam 11:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another questions

Why does Modern English not use eth and thorn anymore, unlike Icelandic? Is there any West Germanic language that still uses them?
Are there any words in English where letter X is pronounced as /ks/ in start of word?
Are there any words in English which have affricates or /h/ in complex onsets? Would a word like /d͡ʒnɪt/ be possible?
Are there any languages that allow central approximants as first consonant of complex onset?
Are there any dialects of French that lack nasal vowels or front rounded vowels?
Is there any dialect of Spanish where j / soft g is a coronal sound, not guttural? Is there any variety where it is pronounced /ʒ/?
Why are words psychology and conjunction not pronounced as /psaɪ̯kologi/ and /konjunkʃon/? Why English does not pronounce -logy with hard G?
Are there any words in English which have two identical full vowels separated by consonant?

--40bus (talk) 21:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question 1

Re 1: I first want to know why the Northwest Germanic languages stopped using Old Fuþark. ᚺᚹᛁ ᛟ ᚺᚹᛁ? --Lambiam 21:54, 2 March 2024

In Anglo-Saxon runes there's a special Y rune (for writing a high front rounded vowel) that would be appropriate to your question. AnonMoos (talk) 01:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I remembered the Old English instrumental case form of hwa / hwæt as being hwy, but I looked it up, and hwi was apparently an alternative to hwy, so your runes are OK on that basis. I have no idea what the form of the instrumental of the interrogative pronoun would have been at the time of the earliest runic inscriptions... AnonMoos (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

40bus -- English still does occasionally use a degenerate form of "thorn": the "Y" in "Ye Olde Coffee Shoppe" or whatever. Many of the other questions are semi-pointless, or could be answered with a little basic research. AnonMoos (talk) 02:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our article thorn suggests that printers imported movable type fonts from the continent which did not have the letter and decided to simplify the alphabet. I know that letters have been 'nuked' from the Cyrillic alphabet on occasion.

Question 2

2. The Greek letter ξ (xi) is, according to the article, pronounced /ksaɪ/ in American English. This apparently aligns with what the letter would have phonetically represented in both Ancient and Modern Greek, even though most (if not all?) other Greek-derived English words starting with x have it pronounced with a /z/ sound. GalacticShoe (talk) 22:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quick note that I would imagine that this pronunciation of xi is an intentional learned pronunciation or something similar; Greek word-initial x becoming z is probably otherwise just a consequence of /ks/ becoming /gz/ becoming /z/. GalacticShoe (talk) 22:27, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouncing the name of ξ as /saɪ/ introduces an ambiguity with ψ. --Lambiam 23:20, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This American was taught to pronounce xi as /zaɪ/. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question 3

Re 3: Some English speakers pronounce why as /ʍaɪ/, and (according to Voiceless labial–velar fricative) some linguists analyze /ʍ/ as an [hw] sequence, thus giving the pronunciation [hwaɪ]. --Lambiam 22:01, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question 8

Re 8: yoohoo? --Lambiam 22:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Teehee! … Perhaps the imitative name of a bird? —Tamfang (talk) 00:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re 8: voodoo? --T*U (talk) 08:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 3

Mo(i)ses

Why does the name of Moses have oi in some languages? --Tamfang (talk) 00:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because it was Μωϋσης in ancient Greek. AnonMoos (talk) 01:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a wiktionary entry here... AnonMoos (talk) 01:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So why was it thus in Ancient Greek? DuncanHill (talk) 02:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Yiddish it's usually spelled Moishe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Yiddish orthography, the spelling is משה‎, which does not suggest a diphthong. Given the pronunciation, one would expect something like מאוישעה‎. I don't know of an explanation for how an /ɔɪ/ crept into what in Hebrew is pronounced /moˈʃe/ (מֹשֶׁה⁩‎), with a monophthong. It is not plausible that this derived from philological considerations of Egyptian names. --Lambiam 11:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Yiddish equivalent to German "Oh Weh" is "Oy Vey", so couldn't it be some internal phonetic developments? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two observations which may or may not be relevant:

The Ashkenazi pronunciation of Hebrew that my father grew up with (though I didn't) renders וֹ /o/ as the diphthong /aʊ/
Yiddish regularly has /ɔɪ/ corresponding to German /aʊ/.

I don't know enough Yiddish to be able to think of any other Yiddish words from Hebrew with a וֹ in the first syllable (there are some where it is in the plural suffix וֹת "oṯ", but they're usually reduced to /-əs/), to tell whether this is a wider phenomenon. ColinFine (talk) 13:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I live and learn. Until today, I didn't even know that monophthong was a phthing.-- Verbarson ^talk_edits 16:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Yiddish accent renders the "o" vowel as "oi" in general. For example, Kadosh (holy) is rendered as Kadoish or sometimes Koidesh. 64.231.206.241 (talk) 21:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So you're saying, Bugs, that Ancient Greek took it from Yiddish? —Tamfang (talk) 19:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Greek version of the name is based on Hebrew, but not necessarily the Hebrew pronunciation as we know it. The Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible are much earlier than the use of vowel points in Hebrew. --Amble (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Septuagint, the old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, was made in Egypt; and first-century Jewish scholars Josephus and Philo of Alexandria connected the name of Moses with the Egyptian / Coptic word for water, "mou" (μωυ) [7]. Perhaps that understanding of the meaning of the name "Moses" influenced its spelling in Greek by Greek-speaking Jews living in Egypt. --Amble (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, the Tribe of Levites (to which Moses putatively belonged), as portrayed in the Pentateuch/Torah, alone featured Egyptian-style names, unlike the other Tribes whose names were characteristically Canaanite.

This might reflect an origin of the Israelites as an amalgamation of more than a dozen previously separate tribes (different ancient sources include between them more than twelve names), including one from a southerly, Egyptian-speaking, possibly Yahweh-worshipping region. The idea that these 12(+) tribes were descendants of the so-named twelve sons of Jacob/Israel is a typical founding myth also found elsewhere (see Twelve Tribes of Israel#Historicity).

'–Moses' is Egyptian, but incomplete, meaning "born of . . ." usually coupled with a God's name. If it ever reflected a real name, this was probably elided to prevent the embarrassment of having the main prophet of one religion being named for the god of another. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 176.24.44.161 (talk) 21:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right on the monotheism! 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing phrase in 1984

I'm having trouble understanding this phrase from 1984:

"Unquestionably Syme will be vaporized, Winston thought again. He thought it with a kind of sadness, although well knowing that Syme despised him and slightly disliked him [...]"

I thought that despising someone entailed a strong disliking for them. Am I missing something, or is this an error in the text? 150.203.2.195 (talk) 08:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no error in the text. See this webpage, which states (correctly, I think) that the two words don't necessarily mean the same thing. To me, "despise" is about hating what someone stands for, in political or social terms, whereas "dislike" is more of a personal thing. --Viennese Waltz 09:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or else Syme is just practicing doublethink. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 09:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there is that. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To express that I find someone's opinions repugnant, I wouldn't say that I despise them. To me, that implies that my loathing extends to the person. To avoid that, I'd say that I despise the opinions that I find offensive. Words do not have crisp definitions, so we should allow some leeway, but I for one also find Orwell's formulation, if not puzzling, at least somewhat peculiar. --Lambiam 10:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering if the slight dislike was Winston's feeling, not Syme's. It would make more sense that way (although the phrasing should then have been "slightly disliking"). Clarityfiend (talk) 13:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To me, to despise someone means to evaluate them as worthless. This seems to me a different dimension from like-dislike. While it's unlikely that anybody would like somebody they despise, it doesn't imply that they dislike them strongly. ColinFine (talk) 13:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would go further: I myself have a friend whom I slightly despise (for some of his behavior) but nevertheless somewhat like (because of his overall qualities). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.127.56.230 (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, OED gives for despise - "To look down upon; to view with contempt; to think scornfully or slightingly of" and one can certainly look down upon someone yet still like them. DuncanHill (talk) 17:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm struggling to wrap my mind around that, Duncan. I might despise someone's actions or attitudes, yet still like/love them personally. Parents (who, one hopes, love their children unconditionally) deal with this situation all the time, when it comes to the wicked stuff their children get up to. But to despise them seems to exclude any notions of liking or loving them. Can you give me an example? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:56, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not without violating Wikipedia policy. But surely there have been people in your life who you've looked down upon but still rather liked? DuncanHill (talk) 22:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GBS gives several hits for the collocation "lovable nincompoop",^[8] one of which is from the other GBS. --Lambiam 11:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do, but I would say I have mixed feelings about them. And if I despised some of their actions and disliked them more generally, I probably wouldn't split hairs. The apologists here are using examples of positive/negative combinations, but both of the emotions expressed in the example are negative which is what makes it curious. I tend to believe that doublethink was the correct answer. Matt Deres (talk) 16:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Lovable nincompoop/idiot/lunatic/fool" is something I might well apply to someone. Without the "lovable", the noun could suggest I despise them, but the adjective puts that to rest. Maybe I'm at odds with the rest of the world here, but for me, to despise someone means I most definitely do not like them, and I would do all in my power to avoid having anything to do with them. Luckily for the world, there's nobody that fits that category, so I have nil experience of this. If I like someone, that means that I have overcome whatever negative behaviours they may have evinced (if any), and while I may not like or condone those behaviours, I still like them personally and i certainly don't despise them.-- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning of words is subject to drift. An egregious example is the word egregious, which originally meant "outstanding" (in a good way!). It has retained this positive sense in Italian egregio. The word despise may also be drifting to an emotionally more exclusively negative sense. Webster's 1830 dictionary gives two distinguished senses:

DE-SPISE′, v. t. 1. To contemn ; to scorn ; to disdain ; to have the lowest opinion of. 2. To abhor. Shak.

--Lambiam 23:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. The negative sense is very strong in the related adjective despicable. If I despise someone, it means I look down on them, not because I have a higher status, not because I am better educated, but because I consider them despicable lowlifes. My scorn is in fact immensely more likely to be directed toward high-status individuals. --Lambiam 00:15, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the discussion so far has ignored the creativity of the word and phrase choices of the author, who is trying to convey the increasingly confused thought processes of Winston Smith, humiliated, tortured and abused at this point of the plot. Great authors do not write in the V/NPOV/OR style of competent Wikipedia editors. Cullen328 (talk) 10:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the context, the term is not part of Smith's thought but used by the omniscient narrator as part a factual statement informing the reader about Smith's state of mind while having a particular thought. To tell their readers that their character John is a terrible stutterer, great authors wouldn't write, "John was a t-t-t-terrible stut-tut-tutterer". --Lambiam 11:05, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 5

Does anyone know what this charcter is?

At s:Page:Cyclopaedia, Chambers - Volume 1.djvu/351, in the second column in the original text, in the second paragraph of the section on the equal sign (the one starting with This Character was firſt, the sixth paragraph to start from the top of the page) there is a weird symbol that looks like a backwards ∝. Does anyone know if this is represented in unicode? I can't find anything, but it must have been somewhat common, since the publisher of the book would have had to have it in print (the book was published in 1728). 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This page describes mathematical notation used by Descartes: [9]. He introduced some notations that are standard today, but the backwards "∝" for equality is one that didn't catch on. I can't find it in Unicode or in any modern usage. Here's a book with more history on Descartes' equals sign and our modern one: [10]. --Amble (talk) 23:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit Conflict) The relevant paragraphs state '= is the Sign of Equality' ... 'Des Cartes in lieu of it uses ∝'.

Equals sign states:

"The symbol = was not immediately popular. The symbol || was used by some and æ (or œ), from the Latin word aequalis meaning equal, was widely used into the 1700s" (History of Mathematics, University of St Andrews).

So I suppose it might be a sloppily OCR-recognized æ or œ), unless someone would be a bigger expert on Descartes. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:23, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I read the same paragraph in equals sign, and had the same thought, but OCR mistakes don't really make sense in an original text. I think I'll extract an image from it and insert it into the transcribed text for now. Thanks, 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 00:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or you could do this: ∝. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or this: ∝ ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, hadn't thought of that, thanks. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 13:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When books were manually typeset using movable type, the typesetter could insert a type piece turned upside down, rotated by 180°, or rotate it by just 90°, which explains why many

\infty

symbols in older printed books are not rotationally symmetric, like 8 : they are the figure 8 on its side. This can explain its use here if ∝ was available in type. --Lambiam 11:16, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Florian Cajori's A History of Mathematical Notations says that Descartes "probably intended" his equality sign "to represent the first two letters in the [Latin] word aequalis" (so in effect it was meant as an ae-ligature like æ), but the symbol that was typeset was probably the sign for Taurus, rotated anticlockwise 90°.

By the way, the double horizontal line for an equals sign is usually credited to Robert Recorde.

--142.112.220.50 (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy link: A History of Mathematical Notations#External links. 2A02:C7B:210:BA00:8458:F303:FDB1:5E14 (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amble already linked the book (and indeed the relevant passage) in the first response to this query, above. Deor (talk) 21:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Harriot's symbol may have been substantially different from our present symbol,^[11] more like

\top \!\!\!\!\!\bot \!\!\top \!\!\!\!\!\bot .

More info (based on Cajori) can also be found in MacTutor's Earliest Uses of Symbols of Relation. Recorde may not have been the very first, and he used his paire of paralleles only in his 1557 book The Whetstone of Witte, in the lengthy, somewhat cumbersome form "=====". It is unclear when the use of our paire of paralleles of much shorter but of equally equalle lengthe became widespread. --Lambiam 22:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a story that during WW2 someone adapted typewriters for various Asian languages, and in Burmese he got one of the letters upside-down. When he became aware of his error, he offered to correct it but was told, never mind, it is now an accepted variant. —Tamfang (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 6

Japanese

Could words らあっし rāssi, もんった montta and ねてぃん netēn be possible words in Japanese which follow phonotactical rules? Can Japanese have geminated consonants after long vowels or moraic nasal or can moraic nasal appear after long vowel? --40bus (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. For the first one, Japanese can and sometimes does have geminated consonants after long vowels, which can be seen in example sentences that have ーっ. I would break these down into three categories:

Words that have a geminating っ that are lengthened for emphasis, such as ぼーっと for ぼっと and ずーっと for ずっと.
Emphatic onomatopoeia, such as しーっ for "shhh", and くーっ as a sigh of relief.
In the context of sentences, words ending with a long vowel can get the particle って added on, although I wouldn't count this as a single word per se. The Jisho sentences earlier include example such as 「ラグビーって何人でするの？」 ("how many people do you need to play rugby?") and 「トミーっていい人ですね。」 ("Tommy's a nice guy, isn't he.")

GalacticShoe (talk) 20:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the last category's long vowel doesn't need to be transcribed as ー (which I think is probably only used for an ending long vowel if the word is loaned.) With words like sansuu (算数), you can construct example sentences that also have a long vowel preceding gemination. The first two categories have long vowels that are explicitly added in for the aforementioned purposes of emphasis and onomatopoeia, which I imagine means that only ー is ever used there. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2. もんった montta looks very strange to me. I think it contradicts Japanese phonotactics. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:44, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and Jisho has no example sentences for んっ, so I imagine it indeed never occurs. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

/NQC/ is found in obaasankko ('grandma's boy/girl'), which Labrune (2012: 139) cites for being exceptional also in having /N/ accented. Nardog (talk) 00:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3. That last one would actually be netin, ti (てぃ) having a short vowel sound analogous to that in chi (ち) but with a different initial t sound. But yes you can have a moraic nasal appear after a long vowel. Look no further than ティーン, which translates to (and sounds like) "teen." GalacticShoe (talk) 20:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to post with the Japanese version of the name of the state of Maine. However, such "trimoraic syllables" seem to be disfavored in Japanese, and are not formed by means of ordinary morphological processes of adding Japanese suffixes onto Japanese stems... AnonMoos (talk) 20:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I would read the vowel in メイン as a diphthong (me then in). If you're referring to the alternative form メーン, then I think that should count, although I agree that such cases are probably limited to loanwords. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Japanese, a diphthong is just as bimoraic as a long vowel, so it doesn't make any difference with respect to looking for trimoraic syllables, which I understood to be the purpose of 40bus's question. (By the way, what my message is now shown as replying to is very different from what I actually did reply to on 20:21, 6 March 2024...) AnonMoos (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The kana and romaji of the last one don't match. Please clarify which one you meant. Nardog (talk) 21:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think -ei- in practice often is read as -ē-, such as in keitai. (cell phone) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that this is distinct from -ei-, since small i next to te indicates that it's a ti (note: not chi) sound. GalacticShoe (talk) 23:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the difference purely in the orthography of long vowels in native and loan words? I think the pronunciations of the syllables セー in セーラー服 and せい in せいらん are the same. Likewise for ヨー in ヨーガ and よう in ようぎ. --Lambiam 23:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ねてぃん would be netin, and netēn would be ねてーん. I don't understand what you're talking about. Nardog (talk) 00:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mixed up てい and てぃ. As the article chōonpu states, the prolonged sound mark is usually not used in hiragana. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 7

Why was English more wordy the further in the past?

Less info per thousand phonemes or graphemes. I have guesses but don't know what's considered most responsible. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the basis for this assertion? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One of the reasons I have never been able to get into Jane Austen's and the Bronte sisters' novels is the excessively wordy way in which characters are made to speak. I can only assume they reflected normal practice at the time. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The context in which Jane Austen wrote is usually called "Augustan prose", but our Augustan prose article focuses almost entirely on the subject-matter of the writings, with very little on linguistic style. There are certain fixed phrases which were required by the etiquette of the day, and the nature of the snappy repartee between Elizabeth and Darcy in Pride and Prejudice means that personal criticisms were often expressed in a rather abstract form, but I don't find Austen to be excessively verbose... AnonMoos (talk) 08:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The verbiage of their characters may have been class-dependent. --Lambiam 09:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The authors of the U.S. Constitution (1787) and Declaration of Independence (1776) used some very elaborate locutions to handle indelicate subjects such as (please forgive my indelicate language) slavery or the Native American Indian tribes (and their lands).

Although I'm an ardent believer in both documents, I would suggest reading and interpreting the list of specific grievances that follow the noble Preamble to the Declaration of Independence. And the Constitution's text (before the emancipating Thirteenth Amendment of 1863) almost never uses the word slave or slavery, using various wordy and indirect phrases when it does indeed touch upon the Peculiar Institution. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

raisu in Japanese

The Guardian has an article today about karē raisu. Is raisu a common name in Japanese for rice, or only as a loanword in the context of this imported dish? Following interwiki links gets me to ja:米, and searching for that character plus "pronunciation" gets me something that sounds quite different. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No 2 is correct (it would be bizarre for Japanese people to borrow the general word for their traditional staple food from alien civilizations where rice was much less important). AnonMoos (talk) 16:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks (sure, but I didn't know if it's a loanword or a native word that shares an etymology with "rice". I assume "rice" has eastern origins.) AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 18:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, here's the etymology for rice: wikt:rice#Etymology 1. Although by that section there are possible "eastern" origins going as far as the Austroasiatic languages, I'm pretty sure that if Japanese had inherited such a term, it wouldn't have been so phonetically similar unless by very big coincidence. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you replace "ja.wikipedia.org" in the URL of what you linked to with "en.wiktionary.org", then you get to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%B1%B3 , which has lots of info on the character and its pronunciations in various languages... AnonMoos (talk) 22:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the dish, written in Japanese characters, is カレーライス. The characters are katakana, which is typical for loan words. The donor language is clearly English. The article on the Japanese Wikipedia states that the dish was introduced to Japan from England during the Meiji era. --Lambiam 19:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from compounds, ライス alone is also commonly used to refer to a plate of rice. 米 rarely refers to cooked rice, and 飯 and 御飯, the native words for cooked rice, more commonly refer to a meal or food in general. Nardog (talk) 01:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese Wikipedia also has articles on チキンライス (chikin raisu – chicken rice) and オムライス (omu raisu – omelette rice). --Lambiam 08:19, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 8

Ligier?

What does it mean here: an English Ligier in the stately porch of the Grand Signor of Constantinople? Omidinist (talk) 13:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For context, the quote is from Richard Hakluyt. See here [12] for the relevant passage. As for the meaning of the word 'Ligier', it isn't entirely clear to me. I could guess, but it might be better to search further first. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to Middle English Dictionary [13], a "ligier" could be a stone layer. I'm not sure if that makes sense in context – especially as I don't know what exact meaning of "porch" is implied here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A little searching finds Hakluyt again using the word several times here. [14] It appears to mean 'ambassador', or something similar. See this passage:

"...the worshipfull M. William Harborne was sent first Ambassadour unto Sultan Murad Can , the great Turke , with whom he continued as her Majesties Ligier almost sixe yeeres.

AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that certainly makes a lot more sense in context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could the "stately porch" be the Sublime Porte? And "ligier" reminds me of "liege". --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the context of the original quote, that could very well be the porch in question. And see the Merriam-Webster definition of the word 'legate': "a usually official emissary". [15] AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on William Harborne, who was the first English Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, appointed by Queen Elizabeth I. There can be no doubt that the "stately porch" was the Sublime Porte, where newly apponyed legates presented their credentials. --Lambiam 15:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found a book in which this passage is quoted as an example of Early Modern English, and the term is explained as follows: Ligier means “resident ambassador.”^[16] --Lambiam 15:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. Omidinist (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How would the word be pronounced? Like "lidger"? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A Google search yielded no clues, but I imagine that the final vowels would be pronounced as two syllables, like "courtier". Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My first guess is /ˈliːʒeɪ/, assuming this was a loan from a now obsolete French word. (Ligier is not only a car company but also a French name: Guy Ligier, Pierre-Mathieu Ligier, Ligier Richier). Compare the pronunciation of atelier. However, brazier, also a French loan in the sense of a bowl for holding coal, is pronounced /ˈbɹeɪ.zjə(ɹ)/. --Lambiam 13:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OED lists "ligier" under "ledger". "An ordinary or resident ambassador; also, a papal nuncio. Obsolete exc. Historical in form lieger." has Hakluyt as one of its supporting quotations "William Harborne was sent first Ambassadour vnto Sultan Murad Can..with whom he continued as her Majesties Ligier almost sixe yeeres." DuncanHill (talk) 12:21, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

March 9

@@ Line 400: / Line 400: @@
 :::The verbiage of their characters may have been class-dependent. &nbsp;--[[User talk:Lambiam#top|Lambiam]] 09:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
+::::The authors of the [[Constitution of the United States|U.S. Constitution]] (1787) and [[United States Declaration of Independence|Declaration of Independence]] (1776) used some very elaborate locutions to handle indelicate subjects such as ''(please forgive my indelicate language)'' slavery or the Native American Indian tribes (and their lands).
+::::Although I'm an ardent believer in both documents, I would suggest reading and interpreting the list of specific grievances that follow the noble Preamble to the Declaration of Independence. And the Constitution's text (before the emancipating Thirteenth Amendment of 1863) almost never uses the word slave or slavery, using various wordy and indirect phrases when it does indeed touch upon the [[Peculiar institution|Peculiar Institution]]. [[User:Shakescene|—— Shakescene]] ([[User talk:Shakescene|talk]]) 21:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 == ''raisu'' in Japanese ==