Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions
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Generalisations of a religious bigot countered by generalisations that make no distinction of Old and New Testament. Classy. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.145.121.151|91.145.121.151]] ([[User talk:91.145.121.151|talk]]) 14:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Generalisations of a religious bigot countered by generalisations that make no distinction of Old and New Testament. Classy. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.145.121.151|91.145.121.151]] ([[User talk:91.145.121.151|talk]]) 14:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Barak Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii and that does not constitute he is an African American. If this article is using African American to distinguish skin color, then he is black. Referring to him as an African American has no factual base. |
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== Obama catches pregnant woman == |
== Obama catches pregnant woman == |
Revision as of 14:42, 30 October 2013
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This page is about a politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. For that reason, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
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Article is self-contradicting
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
In one section of this article, reference is made to the fact that Mr. Obama publicly supports same-sex marriage. In another section, the article states that he claims to be a devout Christian. This is contradictory. One cannot be a devout Christian and support same sex marriage; devout Christians follow the Bible, and the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin. Please change one of these statements. 173.49.201.12 (talk) 01:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Generalisations of a religious bigot countered by generalisations that make no distinction of Old and New Testament. Classy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.145.121.151 (talk) 14:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC) |
Barak Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii and that does not constitute he is an African American. If this article is using African American to distinguish skin color, then he is black. Referring to him as an African American has no factual base.
Obama catches pregnant woman
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Watch and read the story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/10395183/Barack-Obama-catches-fainting-pregnant-woman-during-Obamacare-speech.html I would say this is significant, historical event. Should be included in the main article, embed the video also! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.138.148 (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC) |
Individual mandate
Forgive me if this has already been discussed in the archives, but didn't Obama oppose the individual mandate during his presidential campaign, or at least semi-oppose it? This seems highly notable. Perhaps someone with more knowledge and interest in the subject can address it. OckRaz mentioned it in PPACA; I reverted because it seemed out of place, but it would seem to belong somewhere in Barack Obama. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Just got a notification that I was mentioned here. FWIW, I don't think Obama's reversal on the individual mandate belongs on the pg for his bio as DrFleischman suggests. However, I did and do think it belongs on the PPACA pg for two reasons: #1) in describing the origin and legislative history of the PPACA, editors have used a great deal of space to make the point that the individual mandate should be considered a Republican concept that Republicans abandoned - which is somewhat misleading (a. because while it had GOP advocates it was never adopted by the party and there were always GOP opponents of it, b. context matters so that offering it as an alternative to a single payer plan is less than an endorsement for opponents of single payer, c. context also matters if you pass a law on the state level to avoid losing a massive infusion of federal money after trying to veto a mandate & d. many consider the 'fine vs penalty vs tax vs deduction vs rebate' question [different kinds of carrots & sticks] to so be important that there's not universal agreement about what qualifies as a mandate), but at this point the nuance free narrative - that the mandate was something the Republican party advocated right up until the moment Obama wanted it - has become folk wisdom & #2) if you're going to devote multiple paragraphs to a diffuse (spread through a collective) reversal that took place over 20 years, you can't just devote one or two lines to a reversal in the opposite direction by the man elected president with this policy change as a priority. That's especially true when that reversal occurred within months and one position was used to attack one's opponents as a candidate and the other adopted after taking office. Were any Republicans elected by voters who thought they were supporting a candidate who would enact an individual mandate, only to reverse their position once in office? Unless one has an agenda, a slow partial reversal within a group opposing a policy can't be more noteworthy than a quick complete reversal on the part of the single individual most responsible for the final policy. OckRaz talk 12:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure that changing one's stance on issues needs to be detailed in a biography, given how common it is in the political realm. The individual mandate was once strongly pushed by Newt Gingrich and the Heritage Foundation, for example. Tarc (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure it's as common as you suggest, and certainly not on such a notable issue. If I recall correctly the individual mandate was a key distinction between the Obama and HRC platforms in the 2008 primary and was heavily debated, saying nothing of the attention it's received since 2010. Accordingly it's received quite a bit of attention in the reliable sources. A VERY quick search revealed [4], [5], [6] just on the first page. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Obama changed his stance on _many_ positions as part of the normal process of finding agreement between the two political parties and invested interests. In the case of the individual mandate, Obama reluctantly consented to this Republican idea in order to get insurance companies to absorb customers with prexisting conditions and lower premiums. This really isn't a big deal, and certainly not biographically significant enough to be in this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- The reliable sources disagree with you, no? I'm not saying we need a whole section on this issue, or even a paragraph; just a sentence in the "2008 presidential campaign" paragraph. In fact, this section is somewhat misleading as currently written as it says his campaign "emphasized ... providing universal health care." While I believe he did talk about "universal health care" his position was not only more complex than this but also a subject of considerable controversy and media attention during primary season. I suppose what I'm saying is that we have a small WP:BALANCE problem. We don't have to say that Obama changed his views on the mandate; that would be parroting the talking points of his detractors. I'm talking about a single sentence that accurately summarizes the position he took on the mandate during his campaign. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- This one isn't close, there's no biographical significance even if true. The material, duly sourced and presented as fact rather than an attempt to show a Presidential shortcoming, probably belongs in one or more articles specifically relating to the Affordable Care Act, American health care policy, perhaps the political positions or second administration of Obama, etc. It probably is in those articles already but it may be worth taking a look. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Being flexible and able to make effective compromises is the sign of an effective politician. HiLo48 (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Agree, but not relevant. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Being flexible and able to make effective compromises is the sign of an effective politician. HiLo48 (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'm baffled that consensus is apparently against me. My only explanation, borne out by Wikidemon and HiLo48's comments, is that there's a concerted effort to protect the subject of the article. If this is true, then it's based on an assumption that my proposal is designed as an attack on the subject of the article. That's hardly the case, but whatever. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- In your opening post you made the point that this change in position is "highly notable". If it's simply the sign of being a skilled politician, is it really that notable? HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- That seems notable to me, and the issue is notable for other reasons as well. Not least of which is that the president who who championed and signed one of the most significant pieces of legislation in our lifetimes had a change of heart about one of the most noteworthy (and certainly the most controversial) provision in that legislation. And aside from the notability issue, as I explained above the article as currently written is actually misleading, but none of you care about that. Apparently neutrality takes a back seat to "biographical significance." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Did he really have a change of heart, or did he just make the necessary compromise? I don't know the answer. Nor do you. To continue this discussion requires a level of assumption and interpretation we should not be making. If you can find an independent reliable source that makes a declaration on this point, perhaps we can take it further. HiLo48 (talk) 22:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Change of heart, compromise, whatever, it doesn't matter. Like I said, I'm not proposing putting in a statement saying anything about a change of heart, so there's no need for a reliable source on that point. I'm not even saying there should be statement saying he changed his position, for which I already provided the three reliable sources above (and I'm sure there are more). I'm simply proposing a statement that he opposed the individual mandate during his 2008 presidential campaign. That's all. This isn't controversial stuff, folks. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:36, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Did he really have a change of heart, or did he just make the necessary compromise? I don't know the answer. Nor do you. To continue this discussion requires a level of assumption and interpretation we should not be making. If you can find an independent reliable source that makes a declaration on this point, perhaps we can take it further. HiLo48 (talk) 22:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- That seems notable to me, and the issue is notable for other reasons as well. Not least of which is that the president who who championed and signed one of the most significant pieces of legislation in our lifetimes had a change of heart about one of the most noteworthy (and certainly the most controversial) provision in that legislation. And aside from the notability issue, as I explained above the article as currently written is actually misleading, but none of you care about that. Apparently neutrality takes a back seat to "biographical significance." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- In your opening post you made the point that this change in position is "highly notable". If it's simply the sign of being a skilled politician, is it really that notable? HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
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