Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions
→Bias about his house: new section |
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:...or not. Now others have added to the section, so removal or rearrangement needs to be a consensus. The 2 article links aren't needed, but I don't know where else to put the portal link. [[User:WCCasey|WCCasey]] ([[User talk:WCCasey|talk]]) 23:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC) |
:...or not. Now others have added to the section, so removal or rearrangement needs to be a consensus. The 2 article links aren't needed, but I don't know where else to put the portal link. [[User:WCCasey|WCCasey]] ([[User talk:WCCasey|talk]]) 23:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC) |
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== Bias about his house == |
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'''Current version''' |
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Applying the proceeds of a book deal, the family moved in 2005 from a Hyde Park, Chicago condominium to a $1.6 million house in neighboring Kenwood, Chicago.[351] The purchase of an adjacent lot—and sale of part of it to Obama by the wife of developer, campaign donor and friend Tony Rezko—attracted media attention because of Rezko's subsequent indictment and conviction on political corruption charges that were unrelated to Obama.[352] |
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This is biased. |
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'''A biased version the other way''' could read: |
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Obama is evil. He and corrupt Rezko had a deal for his house. Rezko was subsequently indicted. |
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'''A neutral version should improve on the following'''... |
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1. I do not see in the references that the book deal paid for the house. Who made that determination? The reference says the book deal paid for law school and campaign costs. Conclusion: FALSE INFORMATION IN WIKIPEDIA |
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2. There is no mention of the facts of the controversy, that the price was a special deal that Rezko offered. At least, that's what the (#352) reference says. |
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''' |
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Possible better version''' |
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The Obama family moved in 2005 from a Hyde Park, Chicago condominium to a $1.6 million house in neighboring Kenwood, Chicago.[351] The purchase of an adjacent lot—and sale of part of it to Obama by the wife of developer, campaign donor and friend Tony Rezko—attracted media attention because of because of the price that Rezko sold it to Obama, which Obama called a "boneheaded" "mistake" and Rezko's subsequent indictment and conviction on political corruption charges that were unrelated to Obama.[352] |
Revision as of 01:36, 21 November 2014
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Frequently asked questions
Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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There is nothing about Crimea crisis
Did you notice that there is NOTHING in the article about Crimea crisis and Obama's role (reaction) on it? Is not it important thing (?) (the main International event on 2014). M.Karelin (talk) 13:10, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, it is not an important event in the life of Barack Obama. Moreover, it is not the main international event of 2014 (Ebola and ISIS are vying for that spot). Sorry, but it just doesn't make the cut. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- Ebola and ISIS are more important then Crimea crisis? Really? M.Karelin (talk) 18:57, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- Do you really have to ask that...? --Somchai Sun (talk) 20:11, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- Crimea is one component of the larger Eastern Ukraine/Ukraine/Russia crisis going on that certainly has importance, and possible long term implications with EU/West-Russia relations. That said, as a 2014 international event, it is one with two principle direct actors, Ukraine and Russia. Others may have some words to say or the occasional economic sanction, but that's about it in terms of direct action. Ebola affects more nations directly, and has far more international and global involvement. ISIS has more still, with direct military action from more than a dozen countries spread across the Middle East, Europe, North America, etc. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 20:45, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- Do you really have to ask that...? --Somchai Sun (talk) 20:11, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- Ebola and ISIS are more important then Crimea crisis? Really? M.Karelin (talk) 18:57, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's not a matter of not making the cut. This is an article about a living person and so must be focused on Obama's life. Crimea might be relevant to the Presidency of Barack Obama article. SMP0328. (talk) 18:33, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- I did notice that, and also there is no mention of the Crimea River invasion. Though I do agree it's better mentioned in the Presidency article, until it's clearly significant for a personal bio. Dave Dial (talk) 21:56, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
- Unless the USA is in the habit of sticking its nose in other people's business, problems in Crimea have nothing to do with it or its president. HiLo48 (talk) 06:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm. The USA is in that habit, yes, although more charitably it could be called dealing with hot issues elsewhere in the world when it suits American interests and the local and regional powers are either unable to help or part of the problem. The interest for the US and rest of the world would be to check Russian nationalism and expansionism, and to avoid the potential of it becoming a wider European conflict. The point isn't that it is not an issue for the US, but that it is not specifically a huge issue for the US in comparison with a number of other international matters, nor is it directly related so far to the biography of the President. - Wikidemon (talk) 08:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- And if Putin ever does attempt to 'reacquire the Ukraine', Crimea could be seen as sort of a Sudetenland of the situation by many. But right now, we don't have a crystal ball. Nobody knows for sure if Putin will try to move and expand Russia, or if there is sufficient opposition in Russia and other parts of Europe. In the eyes of many USA people, somebody else should start 'smacking hands' in these situations. Dave Dial (talk) 11:15, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, even if this turns into Sudetenland, it is not appropriate for this biography - an article about Obama's whole life - unless something happens about the event and specifically Obama's response to it. Yes, maybe the article about the presidency. Tvoz/talk 19:52, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- And if Putin ever does attempt to 'reacquire the Ukraine', Crimea could be seen as sort of a Sudetenland of the situation by many. But right now, we don't have a crystal ball. Nobody knows for sure if Putin will try to move and expand Russia, or if there is sufficient opposition in Russia and other parts of Europe. In the eyes of many USA people, somebody else should start 'smacking hands' in these situations. Dave Dial (talk) 11:15, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm. The USA is in that habit, yes, although more charitably it could be called dealing with hot issues elsewhere in the world when it suits American interests and the local and regional powers are either unable to help or part of the problem. The interest for the US and rest of the world would be to check Russian nationalism and expansionism, and to avoid the potential of it becoming a wider European conflict. The point isn't that it is not an issue for the US, but that it is not specifically a huge issue for the US in comparison with a number of other international matters, nor is it directly related so far to the biography of the President. - Wikidemon (talk) 08:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- Unless the USA is in the habit of sticking its nose in other people's business, problems in Crimea have nothing to do with it or its president. HiLo48 (talk) 06:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Article too long...
Article is 255k today, takes 20 seconds to load it. Would anyone please condense the article, in any way? --Corriebertus (talk) 11:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
- Up at the top of this page is a FAQ section. If you expand that, question #10 addresses article length. The article is at the upper limit of recommended article length, and occasionally the massive number of templates, categories, etc., causes a speed problem either at the server end or for your device. The problem is that there isn't much that can be cut out, in fact it's all we can do to keep up with events by adding new material and trying to find something to shorten or remove. Wikipedia is not optimized for extremely low internet speeds but there may be some viewers or mobile apps that are. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
- Took about 7 seconds for me, and I live in a rural area with poor internet speeds. Browser issue? --Somchai Sun (talk) 21:45, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Obama....the first African-American President ... really?
Please, stop referring to Obama as African-American and to him being the first African-American President. First, Obama is NOT African-American, he is half white and half African-American, and second, it might be of the Democrats interest to be able to make the claim of first African-American president, but it is not the truth. I am African-American and I find it an insult to refer to Obama as being of my race and heritage.2001:5B0:2DFF:2EF0:0:0:0:3E (talk) 23:39, 8 November 2014 (UTC) Kat Dollase
- Please see the answer to question 2 in the FAQ section at the top of this talk page. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:01, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- While not everybody agree about how African-American should be defined, I´ve never come across a definition that says that Barack Obama, Sr. is African-American and Barack Hussein Obama II is not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Because Pres Obama's father was not an American in the slightest. --Somchai Sun (talk) 09:57, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- I agree (well, he lived there for awhile), but the OP states that Obama Jr is "half African-American". Nevermind, it´s not important. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:08, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well, so long as the OP is comfortable claiming ownership of African-American racial identity, then I'm sure he/she will appreciate that Wiki defers to however people self-describe, which is "African American," in Obama's case. (PS, why does this one issue generate such perpetual intense pearl-clutching among O detractors???). AgentOrangeTabby (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- Because Pres Obama's father was not an American in the slightest. --Somchai Sun (talk) 09:57, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Many groups are referred to by their ethnicity and or nationality and "race", and oftentimes, if there are multiple of these, they will be referred to by that which is more in the minority. In the United States, there are less African Americans than whites. I'm sure he'd be the first "white" president if all the U.S. presidents and the founders had been from Africa. Dustin (talk) 04:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
- ...and if 40 years ago it was impossible to conceive of there ever being a white president. HiLo48 (talk) 07:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Community Organizer Label
The term has been so often used as a disparagement to the specific subject of the article that it is hardly NPOV anymore. Usually put in scare quotes to suggest to certain NPOV parties that somehow the work was illegitimate or even nefarious. Vote to re-label section "Non-profit work and Harvard Law School." "Non-profit" is wholly accurate and there could hardly be a more neutral term. The fact that the label is repeated three times in a short paragraph provides evidence that the intent of the authors is a covert labelling (smear) mechanism instead of plain bad writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.25.13.90 (talk) 13:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- I couldn't disagree more. The term is used in this article because it was used extensively by reliable sources, and by Barack Obama himself. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:00, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Ditto Scjessey. Community organizer is exactly right and not at all disparaging in our article. That some extremists use it disparagingly is not relevant here - they disparage all kinds of normal usage. Tvoz/talk 19:23, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
See also
The "see also" section on this article. Is it really necessary? Discuss. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:21, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
- Either there was a mass extinction I somehow missed, or nobody has an opinion about whether or not this article needs a "see also" section. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:34, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- "Meh". Adding one wouldn't really add or take anything away from the article...It might be useful to some. One has to scroll down only a little more to see the three collapsible boxes that are chock-full of just about any link you could ever need... (And I dunno, maybe most of this page's contributors are located in Buffalo?) --Somchai Sun (talk) 13:51, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't find a "see also" to be very useful for biographies. Tarc (talk) 14:06, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know if its necessary or better one way or the other. Certainly the article is large enough as is, and there are plenty of article links inside the article already. So put me down as a 'meh' too. Dave Dial (talk) 14:08, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well I lean toward getting rid of it. It seems superfluous to me, and the article is already pretty unwieldy. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I added the section as a place for article links that aren't present elsewhere in the article. Going through the article again, however, I found the link from "44th" to "List of Presidents...". So, I now agree that the "See also" section isn't needed in this article, and will remove it. WCCasey (talk) 22:51, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
- ...or not. Now others have added to the section, so removal or rearrangement needs to be a consensus. The 2 article links aren't needed, but I don't know where else to put the portal link. WCCasey (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Bias about his house
Current version
Applying the proceeds of a book deal, the family moved in 2005 from a Hyde Park, Chicago condominium to a $1.6 million house in neighboring Kenwood, Chicago.[351] The purchase of an adjacent lot—and sale of part of it to Obama by the wife of developer, campaign donor and friend Tony Rezko—attracted media attention because of Rezko's subsequent indictment and conviction on political corruption charges that were unrelated to Obama.[352]
This is biased.
A biased version the other way could read: Obama is evil. He and corrupt Rezko had a deal for his house. Rezko was subsequently indicted.
A neutral version should improve on the following...
1. I do not see in the references that the book deal paid for the house. Who made that determination? The reference says the book deal paid for law school and campaign costs. Conclusion: FALSE INFORMATION IN WIKIPEDIA
2. There is no mention of the facts of the controversy, that the price was a special deal that Rezko offered. At least, that's what the (#352) reference says.
Possible better version
The Obama family moved in 2005 from a Hyde Park, Chicago condominium to a $1.6 million house in neighboring Kenwood, Chicago.[351] The purchase of an adjacent lot—and sale of part of it to Obama by the wife of developer, campaign donor and friend Tony Rezko—attracted media attention because of because of the price that Rezko sold it to Obama, which Obama called a "boneheaded" "mistake" and Rezko's subsequent indictment and conviction on political corruption charges that were unrelated to Obama.[352]
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