Jump to content

Talk:Myanmar: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
→Survey: Support
Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit
Line 143: Line 143:
*'''Support'''. I'll play Devil's Advocate and show Google Books suggests Burma is more [[WP:COMMONNAME|common]] (until 2008 at least): [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Burma%2CMyanmar&year_start=1800&year_end=2015&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CBurma%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMyanmar%3B%2Cc0] though I wholeheartedly support this move as the overwhelming [[WP:COMMONNAME|common name]] [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12990563], [http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51589#.VcWdgvmYH-U], [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-08/myanmar-flooding-claims-88-lives/6682326], [http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/07/us-myanmar-floods-aid-idUSKCN0QC1VH20150807]. [[User:Zarcadia|Zarcadia]] ([[User talk:Zarcadia|talk]]) 06:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I'll play Devil's Advocate and show Google Books suggests Burma is more [[WP:COMMONNAME|common]] (until 2008 at least): [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Burma%2CMyanmar&year_start=1800&year_end=2015&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CBurma%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMyanmar%3B%2Cc0] though I wholeheartedly support this move as the overwhelming [[WP:COMMONNAME|common name]] [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12990563], [http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51589#.VcWdgvmYH-U], [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-08/myanmar-flooding-claims-88-lives/6682326], [http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/07/us-myanmar-floods-aid-idUSKCN0QC1VH20150807]. [[User:Zarcadia|Zarcadia]] ([[User talk:Zarcadia|talk]]) 06:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
*'''Very weak support'''. I have strongly opposed this each time in the past. But in the last few years I've noticed an increasing number of the media and other sources change to using Myanmar, or "Myanmar (also known as Burma)". Whether or not they were right to do this is irrelevant, the fact is it's happening. So I think now the balance is tipping in favor of Myanmar as the English language [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. I may be persuaded with evidence to the contrary however, and in particular views from English speakers outside the USA/UK. [[User:C 1|C 1]] ([[User talk:C 1|talk]]) 11:47, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
*'''Very weak support'''. I have strongly opposed this each time in the past. But in the last few years I've noticed an increasing number of the media and other sources change to using Myanmar, or "Myanmar (also known as Burma)". Whether or not they were right to do this is irrelevant, the fact is it's happening. So I think now the balance is tipping in favor of Myanmar as the English language [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. I may be persuaded with evidence to the contrary however, and in particular views from English speakers outside the USA/UK. [[User:C 1|C 1]] ([[User talk:C 1|talk]]) 11:47, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Usage of "Burma" in the media I follow seems to have continued to get rarer in my estimation since the last time this came up. The lack of opposition above me on common name grounds, and notable comments from others reporting a change in common usage give me greater confidence that this is now a widely-recognised English-language convention. [[User:Bigbluefish|Bigbluefish]] ([[User talk:Bigbluefish|talk]]) 14:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


===Discussion===
===Discussion===

Revision as of 14:17, 8 August 2015

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

Template:Vital article

Former featured article candidateMyanmar is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 7, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
July 16, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
July 24, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
Current status: Former featured article candidate


GDP/PPP (IMF figures)

If I am not wrong, the PPP figure, 221 billions, increases tremendously in recent years (readjustment?). That means Myanmar jumps from near bottom to 58th. Does anyone know reasons for this? SWH® talk 08:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't much faith into the GDP numbers, including those by the IMF. To me, it's still pretty much guesswork, given that there haven't been much reliable data. According to the IMF, the country's GDP tripled from 2006 to 2010. Really? This was before the so-called political reforms, and the subsequent FDI inflows. It was during Cyclone Nargis and the Saffron protests. Natural gas sales of a few billion dollars and a small base, etc. can't explain that. I have to think they were trying to readjust their previous low-ball estimates. With the 2014 PPP figures, the IMF might have overshot in readjustment. (Anyone who's been to Yangon/Mandalay lately knows how ridiculously expensive sub-standard things are there.) It may be readjusted downward next year. Who knows? I don't think anyone really knows. It'll take several years for the stats coming out of the country to become somewhat reliable. Hybernator (talk) 01:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's true. I was quite suspicious because the government couldn't even hire proper accountants and IMF figures show ridiculously high estimates. It will take long before we have somewhat reliable figures. SWH® talk 07:55, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 3 February 2015

I am requesting two separate changes to RCAT tags on Talk:Myanmar, which is currently a protected redirect page. (It redirects here, to Talk:Burma.)

The relevant line of code presently on the page is:
{{Redr|move|from historic name|with possibilities}}

I am requesting that it be changed to:
{{Redr|move|from alternative name}}

The first change is changing "from historic name" to "from alternative name". The latter is more accurate, and making the change on Talk:Myanmar would match changes already made on Myanmar, which is also a protected redirect page (to Burma). This same change was made on that page in two separate steps (three months apart), with the removal of "from historic name" made here and the addition of "from alternative name" made here.

The second change is simply removing "with possibilities", since the Talk: page is not a "redirect with possibilities". (This tag is in place on Myanmar, which is perfectly appropriate for that page in the main/article namespace.)

If any of this is unclear, please let me know (here on this page) and I'll try to clarify. Jdaloner (talk) 07:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 10:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Name in Burmese script not shown correctly

At least on English Wikipedia, the official name of the country shows up as "ျပည္ေထာင္စုသမၼတျမန္မာနိဳင္ငံေတာ္" when it should be "ပြည်ထောင်​စု သမ္မတ မြန်မာ​နိုင်​ငံတော်". Why? Kanjilearner817 (talk) 17:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is the translation difference between the two? Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Both look exactly the same on my wiki Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 22:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 August 2015

Burma → Myanmar – The last RM was back in 2012, three years ago. Right before the democracy reforms and the elections. With the current change in the political direction of the country, a new debate is warranted whether to keep the old name or go on to the new one. The current trend in popular media (BBC, NYT, WSJ, FOX, CNN, NHK, RTE, CTV, ABC, SKY) is that "Myanmar" is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:Commonname. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 01:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

As noted above, you'll need to make your case over at Talk:Burma/Myanmar. Good luck with that; God knows I (and many others) have tried. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 01:59, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@DoctorJoeE: Why is this the case? This is the page being moved after all.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 10:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cpt.a.haddock: Because this discussion has been ongoing for ... well ... forever -- and I think they are trying to keep it centralized, rather than have one dialog going on here and another there. FWIW, I strongly support the proposed move, but there is a small, tenacious group that opposes it, as you can see for yourself at Talk:Burma/Myanmar. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 12:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Yunshui: Is it really inadequate indicator in this case? We are not using it here to gauge the notability of a term. We are using it as a metric to compare the usage of two different terms on the same playing field. The same applies to an extent for the Trends results.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 11:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I stuck that in there just to dissuade the almost inevitable "but WP:GOOGLEHITS!" oppose that nearly always follows such a rationale. I'm well aware that WP:GOOGLEHITS is part of an AFD essay, and doesn't have much relevance here. Yunshui 雲水 11:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's also interesting when noting that in the previous RM discussion, a contributor noted that they were, "getting "About 44,900 results" for Burma in Google News, while Myanmar fetches about "About 166,000 results". The ratio has shifted significantly more in favour of "Myanmar" over "Burma" in the intervening period (from c. 1-4 to c. 1-12 by my maths). WJBscribe (talk) 11:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at online dictionary entries, AHD, Collins, Longman, and Merriam-Webster all prefer Myanmar and redirect Burma to the entry for Myanmar. Encyclopaedia Britannica too prefers Myanmar.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 16:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's focus on the case at hand, rather than drawing out "other stuff". However, I would argue that pronunciation is a deal breaker for article titles, when one has the option to choose between a readily pronounceable title and one that is less so. This is in line with the recognisability criteria of WP:AT. RGloucester — ☎ 15:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully disagree. Pronounceability should not trump WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or WP:COMMONNAME, should it? It's not even mentioned as a consideration under WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 17:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you think Łódź is the common name in English you're crazy. Except here at Wikipedia or doing Polish genealogy work, I've never seen it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The situation of pronunciation is complicated by the fact that the word was coined by the Ne Win government; the Burmese-language pronunciation of the spelling mranmā is "Bama", hence the non-rhotic British "Burma" and the name of the ethnicity the country is named for, the Bamar people. It's hard to say Myanmar in Burmese, just like if the US government insisted on everyone pronouncing initial kn- as spelled. It's extremely artificial. Its artificiality runs directly in the face of the spirit of the rule we usually use, which boils down to "respect local languages and autonyms" as in Vietnamese place names, Chinese place names, the country of Kenya (kehn-yah, not keeeen-ya) and the like. It makes it hard to swallow. Ogress smash! 18:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ogress: It wasn't the word which was "coined", but the rationale behind it. The word has been in existence for centuries. And, in my experience, Burmese/Myanmarese pronounce the word Myanmar/Myanma just fine.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 19:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cpt.a.haddock: I clarified that by "coined" I meant that it was an archaic pronunciation, didn't I? Also, I can say k-nife fine with practice; it's still pretty much a dictatorship flexing its muscles for political reasons by policing speech in and outside the country. I still hold it is hard for some people because it runs against the spirit of the rule (not that the spirit is necessarily relevant, of course). Ogress smash! 20:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ogress: I appear to have misunderstood; I see your point now. And some people do consider Burma/Bama a "corruption" of Myanmar. In some ways, this situation is not unlike that of Japan (Nippon/Nihon).--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 20:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Guess we'll have to go tell the BBC, CNN, the New York Times and National Geographic that they don't use the proper English name. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Per nom. Also, I see the initial point raised in MOS:IDENTITY as being applicable here -- with the government of the sovereign entity being treated as what is referred to there a person or group — "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources; if it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses." Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. "Burma" is the WP:COMMONNAME in books, as per Google Ngram. Khestwol (talk) 21:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I supported this move in the past, and I still support it now: 'Myanmar' seems to have been established as the common name in most English-language international media. And while not decisive, the fact that it is the official name of the country adds weight. Having this article titled 'Burma' feels to me a bit like having Zimbabwe titled 'Rhodesia'. (Disclosure: I was notified of this discussion by User:Fyunck(click).) Robofish (talk) 21:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. When we move Germany to Bundesrepublik Deutschland, I will reconsider my vote on this issue. What next, The Battle of Iwo To, The Myanmar Road? Alyeska (talk) 23:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not similar in any conceivable way. AusLondonder (talk) 23:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. We have an article called Yangon, about the capital of the country we are discussing. Let's be consistent and use the name Myanmar in our article about the country. I also support all of the numerous valid reasons supporters have advanced in this survey. Moriori (talk) 00:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I'll play Devil's Advocate and show Google Books suggests Burma is more common (until 2008 at least): [1] though I wholeheartedly support this move as the overwhelming common name [2], [3], [4], [5]. Zarcadia (talk) 06:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very weak support. I have strongly opposed this each time in the past. But in the last few years I've noticed an increasing number of the media and other sources change to using Myanmar, or "Myanmar (also known as Burma)". Whether or not they were right to do this is irrelevant, the fact is it's happening. So I think now the balance is tipping in favor of Myanmar as the English language WP:COMMONNAME. I may be persuaded with evidence to the contrary however, and in particular views from English speakers outside the USA/UK. C 1 (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Usage of "Burma" in the media I follow seems to have continued to get rarer in my estimation since the last time this came up. The lack of opposition above me on common name grounds, and notable comments from others reporting a change in common usage give me greater confidence that this is now a widely-recognised English-language convention. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

  • Note - I let editors from past discussions know about this rm. I thought it only fair and proper. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I guess things to look at would be changes to any of the old arguments. Usage among USA press has certainly shifted to Myanmar vs Burma. I think the US, UK, Australian, and Canadian State depts still use Burma. Not sure. I assume the gov't in exile still uses Burma? On last check the people of Burma/Myanmar are still split down the middle depending on where they live... either Bama or Manma. I think all (or most) US newspapers use Myanmar. What about the British press such as the Guardian? Anyway these are things to look at in making a decision along with common English usage. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There are some holdouts (The Guardian) but the broad consensus supports "Myanmar" over "Burma". Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok I just checked and the Guardian usually uses Burma. If we check the sources you listed in the RM will we also find splits in usage? I just want to be fair to those seeing this for the first time and want them to have accurate numbers. Ngram only goes to 2008? Google books show 1,770,000 myanamar to 9,960,000 burma, but that's historical stuff too. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    If only to change to "Myanmar(Burma)," at least as a start. That should be reasonable for those who cling to the term "Burma". --Jeffmcneill (talk) 10:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I've noticed the state owned Australian Broadcasting Corporation in Australia is starting to use Myanmar, especially of late in regards to the recent flooding events. eg. [6] [7] and [8] all used Myanmar in place of Burma within the past week (Burma isn't mentioned in either article).Ljgua124 (talk) 14:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Has there been any recent statement from Aung San Suu Kyi or her party about their intentions as regard the country's name? Whilst not the only consideration, if the opposition now has no plans to change the name back to Burma should they gain power, it would seem rather pointless for Wikipedia's article remaining titled Burma. WJBscribe (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems lately that Aung San Suu Kyi tries to not say the name of her country. When she does I think it still tends to be Burma. So the population of the country tends to use Burma and the gov't in exile uses Burma. Other than that most of the world press now uses Myanmar. Wikipedia tries to use the common name (unless the foreign spelling has diacritics, then we use that) regardless of what the natives people use, and that is increasingly looking like Myanmar. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly - as I have attempted repeatedly to point out, over at Talk:Burma/Myanmar, with minimal success. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 18:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    But that was mainly with one editor, plus the fact that you tried to make your point with false information. False info tends to hurt an argument. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    What did I say that was "false"? I am trying to agree with you. Now I'm confused as to your position -- are you supporting the move or opposing it? I don't see a vote by you, either way. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 19:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I told you on the other page where your facts were wrong in your previous attempts. As for voting, I'm not required to vote (there actually is no voting on rm's). But I let people know about it that had given their opinion in past discussions. Sometimes I just watch the process work. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Intriguingly noncommittal. I will stand by everything I've written, as well as my vote, since no persuasive arguments in support of the status quo have been submitted. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 04:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Which was why we threw up our hands over there when we realized you would never grasp it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Burma is Burma. A new government is in charge and wants to rebrand the country. They can feel free to rename it themselves. But they don't control the English language. I find it very strange that so many organizations just used the name for no apparent reason. But how often do you see Republic of China, People's Republic of China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, or Republic of Korea used? Sure, they get mentioned. But in common language its always Tawain, China, North Korea, and South Korea. Why on earth did Burma warrant being erased from the English language while we still use unofficial names for a ton of other countries? What next, we rename the Sears Tower? Alyeska (talk) 23:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The issue, @Alyeska:, is WP:COMMONNAME. I don't want to change the name for a lot of reasons but I'm not sure I can vote against what is clearly policy. "Myanmar" is this gross neologism created by a fascist government, but the media and scholars overwhelming have gone along with it, so we are pretty much stuck AFAIK in terms of common name. Also, Sears Tower redirects to Willis Tower now, so ... yes. Ogress smash! 02:48, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Why Burma is being abandoned as the English name is not really Wikipedia's concern; our concern is only to determine what name fits our policies and then use it. We're not going to right any great wrongs, naming-wise or otherwise. We just go with sources. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Take your fighting rhetoric about "fascism" back to the US State Department, User:Ogress. We accept the name China for a 'non-democratic' socialist state. Should we insist on Outer Mongolia or Qing Dynasty? What about the United Arab Emirates? You are viewing this all through Western eyes anyway. Most people in Myanmar aren't fighting battles about its "fascist" name. They care about the government improving infrastructure, assisting them in floods, ensuring a adequate food supply. Why is the British Colonial name more valid anyway? Was colonialism democratic? AusLondonder (talk) 04:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @AusLondonder: Nearly everything you wrote was wrong or missed the entire point. "China" isn't the indigenous name of China. You comments about Mongolia and Qing dynasty are nonsensical. I've lived in China and all over SEA so I'm fully aware of the situation there. The entire point I made was we use WP:COMMONNAME. Your condescension towards the people of Burma/Myanmar is rude: they're not simpletons in the mud, but have been involved in political struggles for the last 100 years at least. I did not argue for Burma, so your rude comments aimed at me are irrelevant and demonstrate only that you did not read what I wrote. Ogress smash! 04:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are missing the point re China. I read very clearly what you wrote, you started banging on about "fascism" and "gross neologisms". Most if not all governments in the South East Asia region use Myanmar. I do not accept that most people in Myanmar are concerned about the "fascist" implications of their national name and have greater priorities, such as improved infrastructure. I did not suggest people living in Myanmar are "simpletons in the mud", neither would I ever. Those words came from you. I did not personally insult you or call you any names. AusLondonder (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Me & Ma? My & Ma? My Ann Ma? All with optional final -r. At least people know how to pronounce Burma. Rothorpe (talk) 13:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Menorca

That discussion, obviously, is irrelevant to this one. Please take your request to Talk:Minorca. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 12:59, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pointing out an inconsistency between a high profile article and a backwater. There's one evident similarity - the same arguments were made there as have been made here in the past counting modern (post 2000) books about "Burma" (in history) in Ngrams without discounting that counting a book in an Ngram doesn't say if the book refers to history or now. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:40, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Myanmar&oldid=675140061"