Talk:Myanmar

GDP/PPP (IMF figures)

If I am not wrong, the PPP figure, 221 billions, increases tremendously in recent years (readjustment?). That means Myanmar jumps from near bottom to 58th. Does anyone know reasons for this? SWH^{® talk} 08:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't much faith into the GDP numbers, including those by the IMF. To me, it's still pretty much guesswork, given that there haven't been much reliable data. According to the IMF, the country's GDP tripled from 2006 to 2010. Really? This was before the so-called political reforms, and the subsequent FDI inflows. It was during Cyclone Nargis and the Saffron protests. Natural gas sales of a few billion dollars and a small base, etc. can't explain that. I have to think they were trying to readjust their previous low-ball estimates. With the 2014 PPP figures, the IMF might have overshot in readjustment. (Anyone who's been to Yangon/Mandalay lately knows how ridiculously expensive sub-standard things are there.) It may be readjusted downward next year. Who knows? I don't think anyone really knows. It'll take several years for the stats coming out of the country to become somewhat reliable. Hybernator (talk) 01:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. I was quite suspicious because the government couldn't even hire proper accountants and IMF figures show ridiculously high estimates. It will take long before we have somewhat reliable figures. SWH^{® talk} 07:55, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 3 February 2015

I am requesting two separate changes to RCAT tags on Talk:Myanmar, which is currently a protected redirect page. (It redirects here, to Talk:Burma.)

The relevant line of code presently on the page is:
{{Redr|move|from historic name|with possibilities}}

I am requesting that it be changed to:
{{Redr|move|from alternative name}}

The first change is changing "from historic name" to "from alternative name". The latter is more accurate, and making the change on Talk:Myanmar would match changes already made on Myanmar, which is also a protected redirect page (to Burma). This same change was made on that page in two separate steps (three months apart), with the removal of "from historic name" made here and the addition of "from alternative name" made here.

The second change is simply removing "with possibilities", since the Talk: page is not a "redirect with possibilities". (This tag is in place on Myanmar, which is perfectly appropriate for that page in the main/article namespace.)

If any of this is unclear, please let me know (here on this page) and I'll try to clarify. Jdaloner (talk) 07:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Done — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 10:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Name in Burmese script not shown correctly

At least on English Wikipedia, the official name of the country shows up as "ျပည္ေထာင္စုသမၼတျမန္မာနိဳင္ငံေတာ္" when it should be "ပြည်ထောင်​စု သမ္မတ မြန်မာ​နိုင်​ငံတော်". Why? Kanjilearner817 (talk) 17:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

What is the translation difference between the two? Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Both look exactly the same on my wiki Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 22:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 7 August 2015

Burma → Myanmar – The last RM was back in 2012, three years ago. Right before the democracy reforms and the elections. With the current change in the political direction of the country, a new debate is warranted whether to keep the old name or go on to the new one. The current trend in popular media (BBC, NYT, WSJ, FOX, CNN, NHK, RTE, CTV, ABC, SKY) is that "Myanmar" is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:Commonname. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 01:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Survey

As noted above, you'll need to make your case over at Talk:Burma/Myanmar. Good luck with that; God knows I (and many others) have tried. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 01:59, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@DoctorJoeE: Why is this the case? This is the page being moved after all.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 10:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: Because this discussion has been ongoing for ... well ... forever -- and I think they are trying to keep it centralized, rather than have one dialog going on here and another there. FWIW, I strongly support the proposed move, but there is a small, tenacious group that opposes it, as you can see for yourself at Talk:Burma/Myanmar. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 12:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Support. Myanmar is now widely used amongst global media, most importantly, the worlds largest broadcaster, the BBC. Some weight should be given to the fact this country has specifically asked not to be known by the old colonial name, and rather the new one. Use of Burma has plummeted, especially in independent sources. AusLondonder (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Mild Support Though I'd like to see some statistics in support of nom's contention that "The current trend in popular media is that "Myanmar" is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:Commonname" I think it is time. Hopefully someone else will provide the hard evidence that the nom has failed to provide. --regentspark (comment) 02:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Support per nom. Ljgua124 (talk) 03:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support. For obvious reasons. Although I highly doubt this move will pull through. Raykyogrou0 (Talk) 08:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Mild Support, just as regentspark says. DeCausa (talk) 09:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support I know it's an inadequate indicator, but Google News searches for "Burma" currently return around 1,410,000 results, compared to 16,700,000 for "Myanmar", which would tend to reflect the idea that most news media sources now prefer "Myanmar". (Reults for Google generally are 102 millon (Burma) vs. 343 million (Myanmar)). Yunshui ^雲_水 09:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Yunshui: Is it really inadequate indicator in this case? We are not using it here to gauge the notability of a term. We are using it as a metric to compare the usage of two different terms on the same playing field. The same applies to an extent for the Trends results.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 11:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually I stuck that in there just to dissuade the almost inevitable "but WP:GOOGLEHITS!" oppose that nearly always follows such a rationale. I'm well aware that WP:GOOGLEHITS is part of an AFD essay, and doesn't have much relevance here. Yunshui ^雲_水 11:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

It's also interesting when noting that in the previous RM discussion, a contributor noted that they were, "getting "About 44,900 results" for Burma in Google News, while Myanmar fetches about "About 166,000 results". The ratio has shifted significantly more in favour of "Myanmar" over "Burma" in the intervening period (from c. 1-4 to c. 1-12 by my maths). WJBscribe (talk) 11:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support Myanmar is correct. Sawol (talk) 09:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support, as the majority of sources use Myanmar. GoodDay (talk) 09:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support The country is now most usually referred to as Myanmar in English which is the key point, not opinions on the current regime and/or the opposition. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Support - see Worldwide and Myanmar Google Trends for term use. Popularity of search is one indicator, among many other good reasons. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 10:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support Even in football, we always called this country as Myanmar and majority in ASEAN countries called it like that. ~ Muffin Wizard ^;) 10:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support The country has been officially called Myanmar since 1989. Myanmar has been the preferred usage in the U.S. and Asia since the '90s. It looks like in recent years even in British Commonwealth countries sources are switching to Myanmar. --Tocino 10:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support As Yunshui has mentioned above, the number of news hits favours Myanmar over Burma. The number of general Google search results for Burma is 102,000,000 while it is 344,000,000 for Myanmar. Refining it further to only search for those pages that have the words Myanmar and Burma in their URLs (a possible indicator of preference), you see 432,000 results for Burma compared to 819,000 for Myanmar. The numbers are also in favour of Myanmar for similar searches in Bing.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 10:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Looking at online dictionary entries, AHD, Collins, Longman, and Merriam-Webster all prefer Myanmar and redirect Burma to the entry for Myanmar. Encyclopaedia Britannica too prefers Myanmar.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 16:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support Myanmar is the state's name, per the country, United Nations' list of member states and (now) common use. Daicaregos (talk) 10:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support Per the United Nations, as well as virtually every news outlet I have read in the last few years. I find it hard to believe that this name has persisted on Wikipedia for so long. Elspamo4 (talk) 11:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support protest remains in regard to the name change but it is a change that has been internationally recognised. GregKaye 11:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  @GregKay What follows is a list of "recognition"/usage by the main English speaking governments (excluding governments like India who also use other foreign languages more than English, but including Canada and Ireland) using a simple filter of "site:gov.au" etc:

  • Government of Australia uses Burma, but its embassy in country uses Myanmar
  • The Government of Canada does not seem to have a definitive statement on the name on its own websites (site:gov.ca)
  • Government of Ireland uses Myanmar/Burma and has no embassy in country
  • Government of NZ now uses Myanmar. Under the Helen Clark in the noughties NZ used Myanmar, the government switched back to Burma when she lost office, and then switched back to Myanmar in 2012.
  • Government of the UK uses Burma, the embassy is in Rangoon and call the country Burma
  • Government of the US uses Burma on its main page, but see this a quote on another page "Deputy Secretary Blinken (May 22): "All eyes will be on Myanmar during the parliamentary elections later this year. ..." The embassy is in Rangoon Burma

  -- PBS (talk) 22:29, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The position has changed since 2012, and Myanmar is now more commonly used internationally. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support I opposed the move seven years back, but the most commonly used name does appear to have shifted since. Particularly apposite for the English-speaking world, the BBC now uses Myanmar as cited in the article. U-Mos (talk) 11:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support as in the past, but now with even better evidence than before. The case mentioned above of the BBC using Myanmar is an example of how the preference for that name has solidified. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 11:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Agree: The position has changed since 2012, and Myanmar is now more commonly used internationally. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support, and should have always been thus. Nice that the rest of the world has caught up to the country in regards to what it wants its name to be. --Golbez (talk) 13:42, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose – "Myanmar" is confusing for anglophones. For one, it has no readily available adjectival form. For another, its pronunciation is often butchered because of the terminal "r", which is the result of transcription based on RP pronunciation. It simply is an unacceptable word in the English language, and cannot be tolerated here. The name of the country shall be "Burma". RGloucester — ☎ 15:26, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
  • "The name of the country shall be Burma," decrees the Emperor. So pronunciation is now a deal-breaker for article titles? What about Łódź, Szczecin, Czestochowa, Bydgoszcz, Tungnafellsjökull, Brennisteinsfjöll, Reykjanesskagi, Úlfljótsvatn, (I could go on and on)? What shall the English WP use for titles of those articles, Your Highness, if you are forbidding common-use names that some readers may have trouble pronouncing? DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 15:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's focus on the case at hand, rather than drawing out "other stuff". However, I would argue that pronunciation is a deal breaker for article titles, when one has the option to choose between a readily pronounceable title and one that is less so. This is in line with the recognisability criteria of WP:AT. RGloucester — ☎ 15:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. Pronounceability should not trump WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or WP:COMMONNAME, should it? It's not even mentioned as a consideration under WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 17:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

If you think Łódź is the common name in English you're crazy. Except here at Wikipedia or doing Polish genealogy work, I've never seen it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The situation of pronunciation is complicated by the fact that the word was coined by the Ne Win government; the Burmese-language pronunciation of the spelling mranmā is "Bama", hence the non-rhotic British "Burma" and the name of the ethnicity the country is named for, the Bamar people. It's hard to say Myanmar in Burmese, just like if the US government insisted on everyone pronouncing initial kn- as spelled. It's extremely artificial. Its artificiality runs directly in the face of the spirit of the rule we usually use, which boils down to "respect local languages and autonyms" as in Vietnamese place names, Chinese place names, the country of Kenya (kehn-yah, not keeeen-ya) and the like. It makes it hard to swallow. Ogress _smash! 18:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ogress: It wasn't the word which was "coined", but the rationale behind it. The word has been in existence for centuries. And, in my experience, Burmese/Myanmarese pronounce the word Myanmar/Myanma just fine.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 19:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: I clarified that by "coined" I meant that it was an archaic pronunciation, didn't I? Also, I can say k-nife fine with practice; it's still pretty much a dictatorship flexing its muscles for political reasons by policing speech in and outside the country. I still hold it is hard for some people because it runs against the spirit of the rule (not that the spirit is necessarily relevant, of course). Ogress _smash! 20:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ogress: I appear to have misunderstood; I see your point now. And some people do consider Burma/Bama a "corruption" of Myanmar. In some ways, this situation is not unlike that of Japan (Nippon/Nihon).--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 20:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• According to Names of Myanmar#Adjectival forms and demonyms, the adjectival form of "Myanmar" is "Myanma". At least, that's what people who want to be prescriptively correct use. I do not know whether the adjectival form "Myanma" comes from the government, or from the Myanmar language, but I do know that actual real people use it. The adjectival use of "Myanma" is unfortunately hard to document as in an internet-wide search of written texts, because there is confusion about the pronunciation of "Myanmar"; following British dialect it sounds like "Myanma" so some people transcribe the noun form "Myanmar" in this nonstandard way. My unprovable hypothesis is that some people are intentionally trying to promote this confusion in order to continue using "Burmese" with "Myanmar", as a retreated-yet-still-defiant gesture against the government. Shrigley (talk) 21:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Myanmar is clearly the common name. Everyking (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support Given the direction in which the wind has been blowing, the time is now right for the move.--Tærkast (Discuss) 19:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The English-language name of the country is Burma. If the Burmese call it "Myanmar" in their language, that's their privilege, but we don't have an article about Deutschland or Italia, and we shouldn't have one about Myanmar. Argyriou (talk) 20:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  Angyriou, your analogy is not correct. English language publications use Germany and Myanmar not Germany and Burma and Italia and Deutschland are not used.That's why there is a strong case that the English common name is now Myanmar. --regentspark (comment) 02:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Actually, in their own language the people there mostly call it burma (bama). The gov't calls it myanmar (manma). Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Guess we'll have to go tell the BBC, CNN, the New York Times and National Geographic that they don't use the proper English name. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Per nom. Also, I see the initial point raised in MOS:IDENTITY as being applicable here -- with the government of the sovereign entity being treated as what is referred to there a person or group — "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources; if it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses." Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. "Burma" is the WP:COMMONNAME in books, as per Google Ngram. Khestwol (talk) 21:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• A more honest ngram would run from 1990 (the year that the name changed) to 2015, not from 1800 to 2008. Also, you're cherry-picking your sources to include only books, which are the only medium that don't seem to respect the near-universal common usage of Myanmar today (as evidenced by all the other discussion by Supporters of the move). Maybe try actually refuting the arguments of the Supporters? Shrigley (talk) 21:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• You know that ngrams don't go past 2008 at present, eh? And what you see is very slow change up to 2008; we shouldn't be too swayed by the very recent. —innotata 04:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. I supported this move in the past, and I still support it now: 'Myanmar' seems to have been established as the common name in most English-language international media. And while not decisive, the fact that it is the official name of the country adds weight. Having this article titled 'Burma' feels to me a bit like having Zimbabwe titled 'Rhodesia'. (Disclosure: I was notified of this discussion by User:Fyunck(click).) Robofish (talk) 21:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. When we move Germany to Bundesrepublik Deutschland, I will reconsider my vote on this issue. What next, The Battle of Iwo To, The Myanmar Road? Alyeska (talk) 23:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Not similar in any conceivable way. AusLondonder (talk) 23:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support. We have an article called Yangon, about the capital of the country we are discussing. Let's be consistent and use the name Myanmar in our article about the country. I also support all of the numerous valid reasons supporters have advanced in this survey. Moriori (talk) 00:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I'll play Devil's Advocate and show Google Books suggests Burma is more common (until 2008 at least): [1] though I wholeheartedly support this move as the overwhelming common name [2], [3], [4], [5]. Zarcadia (talk) 06:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Very weak support. I have strongly opposed this each time in the past. But in the last few years I've noticed an increasing number of the media and other sources change to using Myanmar, or "Myanmar (also known as Burma)". Whether or not they were right to do this is irrelevant, the fact is it's happening. So I think now the balance is tipping in favor of Myanmar as the English language WP:COMMONNAME. I may be persuaded with evidence to the contrary however, and in particular views from English speakers outside the USA/UK. C 1 (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Usage of "Burma" in the media I follow seems to have continued to get rarer in my estimation since the last time this came up. The lack of opposition above me on common name grounds, and notable comments from others reporting a change in common usage give me greater confidence that this is now a widely-recognised English-language convention. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:17, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. This "vote" seems to have been compromised by User:Fyunck(click)'s canvassing efforts. I went through the last move request (2012) and found numerous oppose voters who were not notified by Fyunck(click). Srnec (talk) 18:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Interesting, considering that I was one of the opposers. I admit I did not go through each one this time, but that would be because I thought my list was up to date. Here is the list I used to notify people. I didn't keep track of who sided with Burma or Myanmar. Sorry if I missed anyone and certainly I did not notify anon IPs, blocked or retired users. It was certainly not my intention to canvass as I did this for the last discussion in 2012 also. Could you please notify anyone I missed and add them to my user list? As it was it took a long time to let everyone know. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:06, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support I wonder why this is even up for discussion. Fiddle Faddle 16:33, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support. This is now clearly the WP:COMMONNAME. We may wish it wasn't, but I think WP:NPOV requires us to rename the article. WJBscribe (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Support. We should use the name official English name of the nation. And I'm an anglophone that isn't confused by Myanmar. Jpgs (talk) 00:55, Sunday, September 15, 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Support. "Myanmar" is clearly the more common term nowadays (https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=myanmar%2C%20burma); thus the article should be moved according to WP:COMMONNAME. In addition, using "Burma" is arguably a violation of NPOV, being a lesser-used term mostly used by opponents of the Myanmar government.Chessrat ^{(talk,contributions)} 19:08, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral. I fully support this article being at its common English name, whether that is Burma or Myanmar. My gut tells me that Myanmar has indeed grown in English language usage over the last few years, and that it is now the most common English name for this country. But I would like to see some hard statistics brought out that demonstrate this conclusively before making my final decision. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per this ngram and this article by Bertil Lintner. There is no need for Wikipedia to follow a trend and not wait for a term to become preponderant. In this case, it is also true that while Burma is the correct name for the country going back centuries and is still acceptable, Myanmar would be highly confusing in many contexts (e.g., World War II). On balance, Burma is preferable. Srnec (talk) 20:47, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Srnec - "Myanmar would be highly confusing in many contexts (e.g., World War II)" - what a fascinating comment. Ceylon, now Sri Lanka, participated in World War II. Should Sri Lanka still be named Ceylon? Northern Rhodesia? Soviet Union? Transjordan? Southern Rhodesia? Yugoslavia? etc, etc? AusLondonder (talk) 04:34, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

No. Why? Srnec (talk) 13:56, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose. It's hard for me to entangle what an encyclopedia should do from bias against an authoritarian government, but looks to me like usage, especially in tertiary sources enwiki policy emphasises in choosing names for major topics, Myanmar is not quite at the place where it has displaced Burma: I agree with Srnec. —innotata 04:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: It has been implied above that the British Government exclusively uses 'Burma', however it also uses 'Myanmar' on occasion anfd interchangebly see here and here and also here AusLondonder (talk) 05:06, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: The Indian government, wrongly excluded from analysis above, seems to use Myanmar as shown here, here, here, and here AusLondonder (talk) 05:09, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Nominator is wrong, "PRIMARYTOPIC" does not apply. "Myanmar" already redirects to "Burma", so there is no change in the status of "PRIMARYTOPIC", whichever name is used. The only issue here is "COMMONNAME" -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:35, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support I will occasionally still hear Burma, but it seems like the world has finally recognized that the country's name is actually Myanmar. It is time to enter the present day. --^StormRider 03:07, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Support Myanmar is clearly the more common name now as shown by many users above. It also seems a significant number of those who oppose do so out of inertia (That's what it used to be commonly known) or opposition to the current government (we should not support the wishes of an authoritarian government). Also, I subscribe to the rule that if the common name is controversial with none overwhelmingly more common, we should fall back to use the official short name. --Polaron | Talk 16:32, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

• Note - I let editors from past discussions know about this rm. I thought it only fair and proper. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:08, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I guess things to look at would be changes to any of the old arguments. Usage among USA press has certainly shifted to Myanmar vs Burma. I think the US, UK, Australian, and Canadian State depts still use Burma. Not sure. I assume the gov't in exile still uses Burma? On last check the people of Burma/Myanmar are still split down the middle depending on where they live... either Bama or Manma. I think all (or most) US newspapers use Myanmar. What about the British press such as the Guardian? Anyway these are things to look at in making a decision along with common English usage. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  There are some holdouts (The Guardian) but the broad consensus supports "Myanmar" over "Burma". Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  Ok I just checked and the Guardian usually uses Burma. If we check the sources you listed in the RM will we also find splits in usage? I just want to be fair to those seeing this for the first time and want them to have accurate numbers. Ngram only goes to 2008? Google books show 1,770,000 myanamar to 9,960,000 burma, but that's historical stuff too. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  If only to change to "Myanmar(Burma)," at least as a start. That should be reasonable for those who cling to the term "Burma". --Jeffmcneill (talk) 10:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  I've noticed the state owned Australian Broadcasting Corporation in Australia is starting to use Myanmar, especially of late in regards to the recent flooding events. eg. [6] [7] and [8] all used Myanmar in place of Burma within the past week (Burma isn't mentioned in either article).Ljgua124 (talk) 14:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Has there been any recent statement from Aung San Suu Kyi or her party about their intentions as regard the country's name? Whilst not the only consideration, if the opposition now has no plans to change the name back to Burma should they gain power, it would seem rather pointless for Wikipedia's article remaining titled Burma. WJBscribe (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  It seems lately that Aung San Suu Kyi tries to not say the name of her country. When she does I think it still tends to be Burma. So the population of the country tends to use Burma and the gov't in exile uses Burma. Other than that most of the world press now uses Myanmar. Wikipedia tries to use the common name (unless the foreign spelling has diacritics, then we use that) regardless of what the natives people use, and that is increasingly looking like Myanmar. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  Exactly - as I have attempted repeatedly to point out, over at Talk:Burma/Myanmar, with minimal success. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 18:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  But that was mainly with one editor, plus the fact that you tried to make your point with false information. False info tends to hurt an argument. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:53, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  What did I say that was "false"? I am trying to agree with you. Now I'm confused as to your position -- are you supporting the move or opposing it? I don't see a vote by you, either way. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 19:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  I told you on the other page where your facts were wrong in your previous attempts. As for voting, I'm not required to vote (there actually is no voting on rm's). But I let people know about it that had given their opinion in past discussions. Sometimes I just watch the process work. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  Intriguingly noncommittal. I will stand by everything I've written, as well as my vote, since no persuasive arguments in support of the status quo have been submitted. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 04:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Which was why we threw up our hands over there when we realized you would never grasp it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Sorry, I'm not going to rise to that bait. As this discussion shows, I'm not the one who is failing to grasp. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 05:48, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

  More fabrications I see. When will it stop? Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:16, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

  Spoken like a user who has run out of arguments. Let's stick to the discussion, shall we? If you have something better than WP:IJDLI, bring it. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 12:58, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Burma is Burma. A new government is in charge and wants to rebrand the country. They can feel free to rename it themselves. But they don't control the English language. I find it very strange that so many organizations just used the name for no apparent reason. But how often do you see Republic of China, People's Republic of China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, or Republic of Korea used? Sure, they get mentioned. But in common language its always Tawain, China, North Korea, and South Korea. Why on earth did Burma warrant being erased from the English language while we still use unofficial names for a ton of other countries? What next, we rename the Sears Tower? Alyeska (talk) 23:25, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

  The issue, @Alyeska:, is WP:COMMONNAME. I don't want to change the name for a lot of reasons but I'm not sure I can vote against what is clearly policy. "Myanmar" is this gross neologism created by a fascist government, but the media and scholars overwhelming have gone along with it, so we are pretty much stuck AFAIK in terms of common name. Also, Sears Tower redirects to Willis Tower now, so ... yes. Ogress _smash! 02:48, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Why Burma is being abandoned as the English name is not really Wikipedia's concern; our concern is only to determine what name fits our policies and then use it. We're not going to right any great wrongs, naming-wise or otherwise. We just go with sources. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  Take your fighting rhetoric about "fascism" back to the US State Department, User:Ogress. We accept the name China for a 'non-democratic' socialist state. Should we insist on Outer Mongolia or Qing Dynasty? What about the United Arab Emirates? You are viewing this all through Western eyes anyway. Most people in Myanmar aren't fighting battles about its "fascist" name. They care about the government improving infrastructure, assisting them in floods, ensuring a adequate food supply. Why is the British Colonial name more valid anyway? Was colonialism democratic? AusLondonder (talk) 04:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

  @AusLondonder: Nearly everything you wrote was wrong or missed the entire point. "China" isn't the indigenous name of China. You comments about Mongolia and Qing dynasty are nonsensical. I've lived in China and all over SEA so I'm fully aware of the situation there. The entire point I made was we use WP:COMMONNAME. Your condescension towards the people of Burma/Myanmar is rude: they're not simpletons in the mud, but have been involved in political struggles for the last 100 years at least. I did not argue for Burma, so your rude comments aimed at me are irrelevant and demonstrate only that you did not read what I wrote. Ogress _smash! 04:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point re China. I read very clearly what you wrote, you started banging on about "fascism" and "gross neologisms". Most if not all governments in the South East Asia region use Myanmar. I do not accept that most people in Myanmar are concerned about the "fascist" implications of their national name and have greater priorities, such as improved infrastructure. I did not suggest people living in Myanmar are "simpletons in the mud", neither would I ever. Those words came from you. I did not personally insult you or call you any names. AusLondonder (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Me & Ma? My & Ma? My Ann Ma? All with optional final -r. At least people know how to pronounce Burma. Rothorpe (talk) 13:37, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

True, but that doesn't really matter. Pretty much every US person will pronounce it Mee-ann-mar or My-ann-mar... no matter what anyone tells us to the contrary. It's not like Ivory Coast where no one can ever figure out how to say Côte d'Ivoire where you hear everything from coat-rack to cot-of-eyeballs. Most don't even try and it's why everyone uses Ivory Coast. It may not be as forthright as Burma, but Myanmar is doable. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The worst part is that the hypercorrect archaism version is pronounced as two syllables, myanma; that y is more like the sound in British "tune" tyoon. This combination of sounds has become a plain b in modern Burmese: banma "[name of this country]", also the name of the ethnic group it is named for, the banma (the Bamars) and the name of the city of Myeik, Burma, pronounced roughly bey and usually spelled Beik. That y was originally an r, and the words are still written with an r: Mranma banma, Brit beyʻ. Ogress _smash! 19:23, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think that Heimstern nailed it above with his comment saying, "Why Burma is being abandoned as the English name is not really Wikipedia's concern; our concern is only to determine what name fits our policies and then use it. We're not going to right any great wrongs, naming-wise or otherwise. We just go with sources." I would add that everything else is just some variation of WP:JDLI. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:49, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, let's say we "usually go with sources." If it's something like Lodz, even if 99% of English sources have it as Lodz, we are required to use Łódź. So Wikipedia does not always go by sourcing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:08, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

This isn't the place to introduce off-topic sidebar discussions. I think that Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) would be a better venue to discuss what considerations apply and/or ought to apply, and Talk:Łódź#completely unwarranted move would be a better place to discuss whether the titling of that other article grew out of appropriate application of those considerations (vs. out of application of WP:JDLI consideratons). Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:53, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Understood. Might I also point out that when someone (even an administrator) brings into this discussion "our concern is only to determine what name fits our policies and then use it" and also "We just go with sources", and those assertions are not always true... I feel it's fine to point that out to editors who might actually take you at your word. So if I'm wrong to point that out, then you were also wrong to make (or really repeat) those statements of Heimstern. Perhaps it would have been better had I first asked you on your talk page to retract, correct or strikethru the problem sections instead of my posting it here? If so, my apologies. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I take your points. I'm not normally activist as an admin -- I'm just a guy with a key to the mop closet. Perhaps I was overly brusque from exasperation with this overlong discussion and the similarly overlong one going on simultaneously at Talk:Tagalog#Requested move 25 July 2015. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 10:06, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

After a bit more consideration, I don't think I'd retract or strikethrough, but I would say that what I had in mind was probably more like "follow the damn guidelines" than the "follow the sources" remark which I picked up and parroted because it resonated with me. "Follow the sources" is an oversimplification of the guidelines, which themselves necessarily oversimplify the underlying policies. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:05, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem at all with "follow the guidelines" or "follow the sources", as they tend to resonate with me too. But I know that sometimes wikipedia ignores those things and simply goes with what the consensus wants, ignoring sources or guidelines, for good or bad. So we have to be careful in what we tell folks and the word "usually" often helps cover the bases. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Menorca

• If we are now giving Myanmar the modern name, can we now spell Menorca as modern books, rather than the Napoleonic "i"? In ictu oculi (talk) 12:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

That discussion, obviously, is irrelevant to this one. Please take your request to Talk:Minorca. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 12:59, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm pointing out an inconsistency between a high profile article and a backwater. There's one evident similarity - the same arguments were made there as have been made here in the past counting modern (post 2000) books about "Burma" (in history) in Ngrams without discounting that counting a book in an Ngram doesn't say if the book refers to history or now. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:40, 8 August 2015 (UTC)