Talk:Barack Obama

Relationship with William Ayers

Much as the Obama pundits have been deleting this, it's unavoidable that we include Obama's relationship with Ayers, which is going to be a talking point for the rest of his candidacy. Especially considering how poorly he handled the questions about Ayers, and Ayers past, there is no way there won't be questions about it, and people with questions about that will logically come here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fovean Author (talk • contribs)

Regarding, "which is going to be a talking point", please note that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Grsz11 01:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

And regarding "pundit", I do not think that word means what you think it means. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

A pundit (sometimes mispronounced pundant) is someone who offers mass-media opinion, analysis or commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which they are presumed to be knowledgeable. As the term has been increasingly applied to popular media personalities lacking special expertise[attribution needed], however, it can be used in a derogative manner. Pundit is also a slang term for politically biased people attempting to be neutral.[citation needed]

Pretty much nailed it, I believe. You two clearly have no intention of allowing Obama's Wikipedia page to be anything but a pro-Obama puff piece. --Fovean Author

Rather, can you state what relevance this has to his biography? Grsz11 01:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It probably more appropriate for the campaign article, unless it becomes more noteworthy. Obama's campaign has acknowledged they are "friendly", but Obama appears friendly with many people, to many to mention in a biography. It is me i think (talk) 01:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It's probably only appropriate if it becomes noteworthy at all. Politicians know lots of people. It's a simple guilt by association tactic that, according to policy, should be deleted. Grsz11 01:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Or it could be more appropriate in the IL state senate article, since they know each other from IL, but I am not sure when the relationship fits, but it has been talked about in context of the presidential campaign. It is me i think (talk) 01:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Guilt by association is not sufficient to send someone to jail, but it's a useful and appropriate way to measure a man's character. If you associate with mafioso, you might not be mafia, but we know a little more about your character. If John McCain's 20 year pastor was a racist like David Duke and another long term friend was the Oklahoma bomber it would be newsworthy (at the least).

I don't know why anyone other than an Obama campaign volunteer like Grsz would actively try to hide Obama's associations with a racist (Wright) and a terrorist (Ayers). These two characters (and Obama's wife who is finally proud of America) give important insight into a man which we barely know. 72.196.233.224 (talk) 11:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and your point of view is oh so neutral. Was I the only one who argued against it? No. Thanks, Grsz11 13:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if Grsz admits these issues are important now that his candidate got handily spanked in Pennsylvania. 72.205.37.144 (talk) 14:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

We need to include all relevant information, his associations are a huge part of his public persona and the media has noted this many times. Include this information, it's relevant and it's notable. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 10:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the Ayers information to the article. Clearly we have consensus - even Grsz's criteria of 'if it proves noteworthy.' There isn't anyone in the old or new news media who aren't 'noting it' now. Fovean Author (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

No. You don't have a consensus. Notability is not the only criteria for inclusion in a BLP. --Ubiq (talk) 03:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I DO have a consensus, and 'making Obama look good' is also not a criteria for inclusion. I don't care if this rattles you guys at Obama Campaign Headqarters, but in fact this is a relevant reference to Obama's life, it is WELL documented, and it is pertinant.Fovean Author (talk) 03:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, really. Did Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and John McCain get a Wikipedia account that we don't know about? Grsz^talk 03:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks like 3 editors have stated objections, 2 of which contribute to this article on a normal basis, and 3 editors want it to be included, none of which contribute to this article on a regular basis. You can fling accusations about who you think is an Obama supporter ad nauseam, but it doesn't really help your arguments. The edits in question are not pertinent to his life, are not about events that have had a significant influence about any aspect of his life, and they would only serve to perpetuate an association fallacy, something that an encyclopedia's role does not entail. If you want people to know about it so badly, go write about it in your blog or make a YouTube video or something. It doesn't belong in his biography. --Ubiq (talk) 03:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Nope, the IPs are the same editor. Grsz^talk 03:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I was counting fovean, quirky and the IP as a total of 3. Either way 3 to 3 is not the consensus he claims. --Ubiq (talk) 03:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed the heading about William Ayers because the topic does not deserve its own heading. Whatever verifiable information there is, of course, ought to be included, NPOV as possible, possibly under a heading entitled "controversies," or some other such grouping that could cover other topics as well in such a long article. The point is not to give undue weight to a singular issue for which journalistic coverage and the information generally known to be available do not represent it as equally important as, for instance, the other topics which are given their own headings in the article. - Aratuk (talk) 03:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It is mentioned - in the article about his campaign, because that's where it's relevant. Grsz^talk 03:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a mistake to omit the information about Ayers from this article. The #1 reason I cite is the disparity in the ratio of included controversial material in the B. Obama article and the H. Clinton article. Certainly, if we under-report Obama's controversies (even in brief) from this article, we are putting our thumb on the scale in favor of him. That favoring occurs because naturally, Mr. Obama, being newer to the national political scene, will have less information reported about him. However, it's not the qty of the subject matter reporting that ought to be measured, but rather, how fully in the inclusion or exclusion of the information, informs the reader of the total picture of the person. Obama is now a national figure. Serious allegations and controversies must be mentioned (at least in brief) in the main article. Frankly, it is unprecedented that a leading US Presidential candidate freely associate(s)/(d) with a unrepentant domestic bomber. William Ayers is on recent record as an admitted criminal bomber. Omitting any pointers to that relationship from this article is a gross abdication of perspective and balance. 7390r0g (talk) 06:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to a brief (probably one-sentence) mention of the Ayers matter, if we can source it to unimpeachable sources. However, it's worth remembering that the BLP policy will encourage underreporting of any controversy, for any person, because most such "controversies" are pushed by sources which don't meet the high standards of reliability which BLP requires. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is any justification for mentioning "the Ayers matter", as you put it. Such a thing would be only be appropriate in the campaign article, insofar as it has been given sensationalist media exposure, but in the context of Obama's life it lacks any significance whatsoever. If a consensus forms to include anything about Ayers, any mention of the whole "weatherman" thing would violate the Wikipedia "do no harm" policy. His association with Obama is based on their shared experience with the Woods Fund of Chicago, and not with anything in Ayers' distant past. I believe that the association has been given a more than sufficient treatment here, and I would regard any attempt to add information to this article as a POV push. - Scjessey (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"I would regard any attempt to add information to this article as a POV push"... interesting. Let me posit a question to you. Are you saying that the mere inclusion of any mention of Ayers is by definition POV? If so, how did you come to that conclusion? As I see it, if your premise is true 'this is inherently POV stuff', then isn't the reciprocal of that premise also true, ie: unilateral exclusion of it is also POV?. Personally, my view is that any United States Senator, by virtue of holding that office, is an extremely notable person, about whom many people are interested to learn more. Senator Obama's relationship/friendhip is not notable because Obama is a Presidential candidate in 2008. No, it's notable because it's illustrative of Obama's comfort level regarding whom he is willing to associate. I remember when Nixon was still alive and close with BeBe Reboza. Suffice it to say, Reboza had some unsavory elements to his background and it was very reasonable that people wanted to know: "Wow - Nixon is pals with Reboza". Likewise, Ayers has a very high profile and unsavory past. The fact that Obama is friends with him does not become exclusive to 2008 campaign. Think about it, if Obama was not running, how would you justify excluding the Ayers connection from this article? The answer is that you couldn't. Ayers is notable and controversial. Obama is close to him. That connection deserves a mention. BTW: If César Chávez were still alive and he were also friends with Obama, would you exclude that fact too - simply because some in the media might be clucking about it? We are letting the tail wag the dog if we let muckrackers/bloggers, etc. force us into capricious limits on fact inclusion - simply because some elements of the media are pronse to hysteria. Ayers is on record as saying "I don't regret setting bombs," Bill Ayers said. "I feel we didn't do enough." [4]. As I see it, that makes Ayers very notable and by extention, his friendship with Obama is notable. Also, as per this Boston Globe article from April 18, 2008 it's reasonably clear that the connection between Obama and Ayers is notable, (albeit controversial as well). Here too is another article, but one which points out Ayers details in another light. LA Times puts their perspective on Obama/Ayers. This link On Hot Air has what I feel is possibly an illuminating quote from a poster "The whole Bill Ayers situation says more about the the left-wing Democrat mob-church that runs Chicago and forgives sins though social action than any social climber that comes though there." Also, Powerline has some readable (if not overwrought) details that add light. Anyway, as I see it, it's this quote ""Like many other tenured and well-heeled radicals, Ayers keeps hoping for a revolutionary upheaval that will finally bring down American capitalism and imperialism," wrote Stern. "But now, instead of planting bombs in bathrooms, [Ayers] has been planting the seeds of resistance and rebellion in America's future teachers, who will then pass on the lesson to the students in their classrooms." from this article which makes clear that Ayers is notable enough that his friendship Obama ought to be mentioned and it shuld be mentioned here, in this article. Ayers, as an unrpentant doer of criminal deeds, because he now has some influence, while still persuing a path of radicalism, is a notable person. And, the fact that the Ayers home was the location which held Obama's very 1st state senate election meeting, makes clear that the Ayers connection predates election 2008. Ayers, a dyed-in-the-wool radical, has been very helpful to and is close to Obama. Omitting that connection is, of itself, a form of POV. I leave it to others to see how it can be mentioned, but mentioned it should be. 7390r0g (talk) 04:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The Ayers content is included in relevant articles about the 2008 presidential campaign. Please do not continue to re-insert references in this biography with the justification that "omission" is POV. Every event of Obama's political campaigns cannot be included in what is a summary article of his life. Thanks. Harro5 05:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

For the records, I HAVE NOT "inserted" ANY referrences to Ayers into this article. Rather, I am attempting to discuss WHY a modest one SHOULD BE inserted. I ask that yuo cease merely reiterating a routine "NO! It's campaign related" EXCUSE and instead ACTUALLY DISCUSS the pros/cons of inclusion. Here again are the pros:

1) Obama is a senator - this makes him notable - regardless of being a pres. candidate.

2) Bill Ayers is notable and controversial on his own accord - if you don't believe that read his wiki page!

3) Obama's Chicago political career initiated his 1st campaign at a meeting in Ayers home!

4) This Ayers help pre-dates by far, election 2008

5) Obama has many connections to Ayers going back many years.

Attempting to sweep this away into some other article is blatant manipulation and POV.

I recommend the inclusion of a single sentence in the "Cultural and political image" section of this article:

In recent times, as his public profile has risen, some of Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko have been the subject of increased scrutiny.

This sentence states indisputable notable facts and is appropriate because the "Cultural and political image" section is a virtual puff-piece for Obama. You can't open the door to personal criticism by having a section called "Cultural and political image" and then refuse to allow any negatives into that section - only positives. Such editng is absurd!

Forcing any and all negatives about Obama's "Cultural and political image" out of the article on the basis of "campaign" makes me question why we even HAVE a section called "Cultural and political image" if we are going to purposefully exclude all unflattering detail from that section... Who's kidding who here? 7390r0g (talk) 14:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no evidence to suggest Obama's relationship with Ayers can be characterized as "close", or "a friendship". What little "relationship" there is can be safely regarded as insignificant. It is true that both individuals are notable, but their relationship to one another is not, except in the minds of the FOX News-watching sheep. Furthermore, a sentence beginning with, "In recent times" is almost certainly going to violate WP:RECENT. This is a clear attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill, and it is laughably transparent. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The only thin "laughably transparent" around here, is the obvious schemes by whitewash minded editors who seek to put 'we love Obama' spin on this article. And for your information, the solution to you complaint is to strike "In recent times", leaving us with:

"As his public profile has risen, some of Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko have been the subject of increased scrutiny.

Now, with that correction made, does anyone here dare dispute that the above sentence is 100% true? Does anyone DENY that Senator Obama's associations with those two have been the subject of increased scrutiny?

I will wait one day and if no honest-broker reasons for keeping my suggested sentence out appear, I am inserting it. It's a true fact. It's a notable fact. It's germane to the section I intend to put it in and it's written in strictly non-pov manner. Does anyone deny this? 7390r0g (talk) 04:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that wording was true, neutral and appropriate. It's not appropriate to go into details of Obama's relationship with Ayers (or lack thereof), but it has been the subject of media scrutiny. I haven't checked the sources mentioned above, so I'm not sure which (if any) of them would be best to use as a reference for this proposed sentence. Ideally, it should be something from a highly reliable source (not an opinion column or editorial — but analysis is OK) noting the scrutiny and possibly mentioning its effect on Obama's public image. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Where are you intending to insert this sentence? Why are we mentioning Rezko yet again? Only the right wing loonies are "scrutinizing" Obama's connection with Ayers, and filling the sentence out by mentioning Rezko in the same breath may make it seem "true" and "neutral", but it is certainly not appropriate. It is just another guilt-by-association wrap that is best dealt with by the campaign article. There is nothing sinister about Obama's connection with Ayers (who has never been convicted of anything, has become a distinguished professor, and only knows Obama through a connection with a now defunct charity). Why don't we just let Sean Hannity maintain this article by himself? -- Scjessey (talk) 13:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, to answer your question "Where are you intending to insert this sentence?": As I stated, the sentence which I intend to insert into this article is:

"As his public profile has risen, some of Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko have been the subject of increased scrutiny.

and I intend to insert it in the section titled "Cultural and political image". As I see it, that section title and the current content of it, opens the door to the sentence which I wish to put in.

It is simply preposterous to suggest that my sentence is POV in any way - it's not. There is no slander, no slight, no negative in that sentence. My sentence does nothing more than allow the reader to comprehend three 100% true, neutral, germane, salient facts pertaining to Obama's "Cultural and Political image" - those facts being:

1) Obama's been associated with these two people.

2) Those two people are controversial.

3) Obama's association with them has been subject to increased scrutiny.

Frankly, I am not impressed at all with Scjessey arguments on this point. As I see it, he's got WP:OWN problems here and needs to back off. 7390r0g (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Er, no. What you are doing, by mentioning Ayers and Rezko (who are unrelated) in the same sentence is creating a conflation. This is a sum-greater-than-parts approach, and the result is negative POV. This is a common tactic, as evidenced by Andy's comments below. And I'm not sure who you think you are telling me to back off. I am simply trying to ensure the article remains neutral. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, I applaud your pure motives, but I suggest that your vision is clouded here. There is no "conflation" in my suggested sentence. The subject of the sentence is the "increased scrutiny" of "controversial [person] association(s)". My sentence allows a readers to read for themselves - at the corresponding linked articles, who those people are and what they are all about. Scjessey, you presume that a reader of my sentence MUST come away with some adverse conclusion about Obama - because of my sentence. That reasoning is not grounded in the facts at hand, but is based on the negative spin you impute into my sentence. The sentence I am sugegsting, in no way is negative for Obama. Those other individuals stand or fall on their own merits - and the wiki pages for them will reflect that. However, to exclude from this article the truth that Obama's association with those two has come under increased scrutiny - merely because you conjecture that it's a negative (and you do conjecture that - you've been saying POV! POV!), does not make my desired edit fail wiki standards. I ask that you volunteer to put this point of discussion up for a request for comment. I've made my views clear - as have you. Let's not argue. Let's seek wider consensus from the community. 7390r0g (talk) 21:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you don't see the problem with your proposal, but the problem still exists. Your reason for introducing this conflation, as you have already stated is, "the disparity in the ratio of included controversial material in the B. Obama article and the H. Clinton article," which is not an appropriate justification at all. Yes, there has been scrutiny, but that has been a result of the Presidential campaign. The Ayers association motivated by a guilt-by-association agenda, and the conflation with Rezko adds more weight to what would otherwise be a non-story. Furthermore, the actual details of Obama's association with Ayers are already covered in a sub-article where they can be given the appropriate exposure. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You entirely miss the point of the sentence, which is: to alert the reader that there has been increased scrutiny of controversial associations. You can't have an entire section about a Senator's "Cultural and Political image" but then screen out factual data points merely because that information might be interpreted as a negative. Our readers are not fools - they can decide for themselves if Ayers and/or Rezko are "bad" (as you seem to suggest our readers will conclude). If as you say, the things with Ayers are all the the past, well then where's the beef? On the other hand, Resko is likely more of a controversy for himself and for Obama as the association there is close and many people are troubled by the charges against Resko (hence the increased scutiny). Also, I see that you did not respond to my suggestion. I think we should open up a request for comment. I want my sentence included in the section I have mentioned and you are opposed to that. We are at an impasse. If you won't agree to seeking wider comment, then I feel that you do indeed have WP:OWN issues here. Yes or no, will you agree to a request for comment? I seek your agreement to go forward on that as I prefer consensus to confrontation. Please reply on this point today. I will look for your answer later on this evening. 7390r0g (talk) 21:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not Wikipedia's job to "alert the reader that there has been increased scrutiny of controversial associations," as you put it, as it would violate WP:RECENT. First of all, the Rezko-related material has already been given a treatment in the article so further mentions would violate WP:WEIGHT. Secondly, there is only increased scrutiny on the trivial association with Bill Ayers because Obama is in the middle of a campaign, and because Hannity made a big deal out of it on the radio. There is a case for including it in the campaign article on that basis, but even that is tenuous at best. Thirdly, there is no reason to mention the two associations together other than to conflate the separate issues to push a negative agenda. Fourthly, you do not need my permission or consent to seek a request for comment, as it seems you are extremely fond of doing. Finally, I resent you implication that I somehow claim ownership of the article. There is no evidence in my edit history to support your claim. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It's evident that you are combatively closed-minded and are not interested in reaching common ground. And frankly, I resent your mocking tone and your wiki-lawyering. I am inserting the sentence as per above. If you don't like it, you can start an RFC - I offered that to you. 7390r0g (talk) 23:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Try to be a bit more civil if you can. Scjessey raises some good points. BLPs don't serve as a news source, and it isn't our job in this article to "alert the reader that there has been increased scrutiny of controversial associations" so much as to inform the reader about Barack Obama's life. Criteria for inclusion in a BLP isn't merely: 1. fact 2. sourced. It has to be demonstrated that this holds particular relevance to his life, and as Scjessey alluded to, it might be quite a bit too early to show that it does. Obama has also been criticized and drawn scrutiny for a vast number of things due to the territory that comes with being a presidential candidate. We can't list them all in his BLP just because they happen to facts. --Ubiq (talk) 23:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ubiq, your personal attack against me ("Try to be a bit more civil if you can") reeks of snideness and is unwarranted, please withdraw it. Further, I am be fully civil, 100%. Now, as to the sentence under discussion, are you saying we are not the "alert the reader" to things? Frankly, if that's the case, why are we telling the readers what (for example) Andrew Sullivan and other commentators think? Why is that relevant and the sentence I advance here, not? Further, you are attempting to twist my dialog on this page so as to impeach the merit of my edit. The merit of my edit speaks for itself. I've added many reasons here, but why I get in return is wiki-lawyering and insults. Frankly, I think this page is well overdue for some RFC input - we could use some fresh insight. Also, there is no BLP violation with my sentence and it's false to say that there is. I will tell you though, now that I see the retorts my sincere efforts have been slapped with, I understand why this article is such a squsihy blob of puffery. Just look what happens on the talk page - try to add A SINGLE SENTENCE and you get reams and reams of legalistic justifications to block it. My word, I amazed that there is so much WP:OWN vigor on this page. 7390r0g (talk) 01:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you have actually read WP:OWN, which has no relevancy to this. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, please stop leaping to conclusions and hurling insults. How can you say "I don't think you have actually read..." without asking me first? That's very insulting - and evidently, intentionally so. Frankly, if you keep this up, I feel that I should report you for user conduct. Now for your informationm, you can find this "If you create or edit an article, know that others will edit it, and within reason you should not prevent them from doing so." at WP:OWN and it's EXACTLY what I am suggesting you are doing - and you are doing it in violation of the spirit (and guidelines of this wiki) so please stop!. I am going to ask you again: yes or no, will you agree to a content RFC regarding this disagreement? I believe we can benefit ffrom outside input? Will you agree to that? 7390r0g (talk) 01:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Look. I'm only going to say this one more time because it is clear you are just ignoring all common sense here. The sentence you are trying to add is not appropriate in this article for the following reasons:

1. It violates WP:BLP with respect to WP:HARM#TEST because you are trying to use guilt-by-association by drawing attention to Obama's tenuous relationship to Bill Ayers because of something Obama has nothing to do with.
2. It violates WP:WEIGHT because it suggests an increase of scrutiny over Tony Rezko, where none exists, and because Rezko is already covered in the article.
3. It violates WP:NPOV because the mention of Ayers and Rezko in the same sentence, whose controversies are not related, is a conflation that introduces a negative point-of-view, even if that is not your intention.
4. It violates WP:RECENT because it draws attention to recent campaign events, and has no longevity in a biography of Obama's entire life.
5. It violates WP:RS because... well.... you didn't actually provide any at all.
6. It violates WP:OR because you made the sentence up yourself, without referring to, or including any, reliable sources.

So can you understand why I would think this sentence would be inappropriate now? It violates five Wikipedia policies and two essays. Do you really think this article would have reached and maintained FA status if the editors had let folks throw in any old bit of unsourced original research? Please consider self-reverting your edit, for which you have no consensus for introducing. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

You are free to file an RFC any time you want and don't need the approval of others to do so. I don't think your behavior on this talk page is acceptable. Your notion that my suggestion for you to be a bit more civil somehow constitutes a personal attack (and subsequent demand for a retraction) is a prime example. I'm not going to engage in discussion with you unless I see you being nicer and less combative. I'd recommend Scjessey to do the same. As it stands, there is no consensus for inclusion of this disputed content and the edit has been reverted. Go for an RFC if you feel this still warrants inclusion. --Ubiq (talk) 02:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That's way harsh, Tai [5] 7390r0g (talk) 14:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

For better or worse, right-wing loonies like Sean Hannity have an influence on our national discourse these days. We can't ignore that reality. Of course, we shouldn't pretend that they're reliable sources of factual information, but they do have an influence on public perceptions. I don't think it's appropriate to argue the details of how much Obama did or didn't have a relationship with Ayers here, but it is appropriate to note that some media sources have pushed the relationship as a story, and that it's had an impact in some quarters. If you can find a reliable source discussing the way that right-wing media have pushed the story, the one sentence could say something like ""As his public profile has risen, some conservative media outlets have scrutinized Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko.'" But again, I haven't checked the sources to see what they say. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

My contention is that this issue does not seem to be biographically relevant. It is already covered in here, and that should be more than sufficient. Also, the attempt to conflate Ayers with Rezko is a clear POV-push. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The Woods Fund is defunct? The $1M Obama voted to invest with Davis is gone? What happened to the other $71M? Nah, it's just Scjessey being wrong again. Actually, what's really needed is a sentence in Early Life and Career about Ayers (not convicted, but an admitted and unrepentant bomber),[6] then chairman of the WF BoD, naming Junior Associate Obama to a Directorship ($6,000/yr back when Obama needed it)[7] and also hosting Obama's first meet-and-greet when he first ran for office, to which run Rezko was the first substantial contributor. Obama barely knows the guy's name of course. It's just wonderful how these guys he barely knows do so much for him. Only in America. Andyvphil (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's another board. Joyce Foundation, 8 yr, $70,000.[8] How many of these? Adds up to how much of what the guy was doing for a living? Andyvphil (talk) 14:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yeah. This is the anti-gun foundation[9][10] that his wife wanted him to quit politics, after the Rush defeat, to become president of. No mention in his bio, though. Andyvphil (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I had incorrectly assumed that the charity had become defunct because their domain was no longer resolving. My bad. That being said, all the details you describe above are irrelevant, since in the context of this BLP we can regard the "weatherman" characterization as "inadmissible" per the policy to "do no harm". Ayers is a distinguished professor and a civic leader in Chicago, and it is hardly surprising that Obama has had some association with him - an association that was of a largely philanthropic nature. The controversies of Ayers' past have nothing to do with Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Wright, Ayers, Rezko, Davis. Nothing to do with Obama. "...in the context of this BLP we can regard the 'weatherman' characterization as 'inadmissible' per the policy to 'do no harm'"??? Good one! Can't mention that bomber business, or the dead people! ROFL!!! Andyvphil (talk) 14:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, no. Obama didn't bomb anyone or kill anyone. And trying to conflate Wright, Ayers, Rezko and Davis is just a POV-push, Andy. They are unrelated. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Conflating Wright and Ayers may be a POV-push, but if so it's one shared by NBC and The Wall Street Journal, which asked voters in a recent poll to describe how concerned they were by the issue which they described as "It is hard to know Barack Obama’s values because he has friends like Reverend Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers." That sounds like push polling to me, but that's what they asked, and 32% of the people surveyed said they had "major concerns". Now, we can't tell from that how much of the concern stems from Ayers and how much from Wright, but it would seem to indicate that Ayers is being treated as an issue affecting Obama's image by reliable sources. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Well the issue above relates to conflating Ayers and Rezko, and the sentence in question was some original research that was not even placed in the campaign section. And that poll also asks about the flag pin, so perhaps we should have a sentence that points to the increased scrutiny (more than Ayers and Rezko combined) over his lack of a flag pin, which proves he hates America and is probably an evil Muslim terrorist? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, no — in part because that poll shows that the vast majority of voters (59%) have no real concerns over the flag pin business, and another 14% have only minor concerns. Only 27% have "major" or "moderate" concerns about flag pins (which is frankly far too many, but that's my own opinion). However, a significant minority (32%) said they have "major concerns" about Obama's past association with Wright and Ayers, and another 15% have moderate concerns. That's nearly half the electorate. I think that's a view which should be represented in the article — not with undue weight, but with a brief mention. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. Even if there is polling data to indicate that Obama's association with Ayers is a problem, this is still a fly on the back of a hippo in terms of significance. Besides, it's a campaign issue (if anything) and it violates WP:RECENT. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

What is a significant minority? And to what end would we keep providing such data with the assistance of our evaluation of a poll? Presumably, significant minorities have concerns about other things too. I've read that ~8% percent of voters in some states admit not wanting to vote for him because he's black, though some have suggested the number is likely much more than this. Should we include a sentence about this? I'm just a bit puzzled as to why such things would be mentioned in his BLP. I don't see anything like that in John McCain's or Hillary Clinton's article. I also don't see, whether he wins or loses in November, why these mentions would be particularly relevant to his life. I think his public image has certainly taken a hit following from the media scrutiny, and I could see how we could perhaps provide a short paragraph to show this shift, but I do think we would need to give it some time before we do this. His image could go back up for one reason or another and ultimately the downward shift would be rendered irrelevant to his life. --Ubiq (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

As an example of a noteworthy critic lumping Rezko, Wright and Ayers together, see this column by Charles Krauthammer, which contains the sentence, "Then came the three amigos: Tony Rezko, the indicted fixer; Jeremiah Wright, the racist reverend; William Ayers, the unrepentant terrorist." Of course, he's obviously pushing his own agenda there, but it's further evidence of the aforementioned "scrutiny". (Someone who wasn't trying to follow NPOV might very well call it mud-throwing rather than scrutiny, but I couldn't possibly comment.) Some of us may think the Ayers question insignificant, but we've got to include all significant viewpoints, and like it or not there is a significant viewpoint which holds that Obama's associations with Ayers are problematic. We need at least to mention him in the article, and I think the proposed "scrutiny" sentence is an appropriate level. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Go for it. And on that note, there is a significant viewpoint that he's elitist and out of touch. That should probably be included as well. --Ubiq (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

And don't forget the flag pin thing. There are loads of reliable sources for that as well, and for Michelle's lack of pride in her country. Oh, and don't forget to mention his poor bowling effort while you're at it. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

While I am for once in complete agreement with Josiah Rowe, let me also add that the purpose of Wikipedia is to be able to look information up and to follow links from article to article, NOT to make political candidates 'look good.' It is absolutely likely that someone is going to have a question about Ayers' and Obama's relationship and start looking here. The same with Jeremiah Wright, the same with Rezko. Those who fight this because they believe they're conceding to the bad press about Obama do the whole project a disservice -- Fovean Author (talk) 3:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

A neutral solution

There is a way that we can mention Obama's association with Bill Ayers without using the non-neutral solution proposed above, and that is by describing his involvement with the Woods Fund of Chicago:

Between 1993 and 2002, Obama served on the board the Woods Fund of Chicago, a philanthropic organization providing grants to Chicago's disadvantaged people and communities. In 1999 he was joined on the board by Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. This association would later draw scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.

I am not sure if the source I have used passes WP:RS (although this archived discussion says it does), but I believe this approach is better than simply saying that Obama's association with Ayers is drawing scrutiny. Anyway, I'm going to replace Kossack4Truth's poorly-sourced POV edit for this new version. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Why all the obsession with suppressing factual threads. At the least one should also mention the importance of Ayers to Obama's support. Ayers was more than just another friend. Ayers was a significant "rite of passage" persona in the Chicago scene. Their combined role on the Woods Fund board (a small and intimate board) in funding one million to Rezko is rather important since that's about one third of the annual budget for Woods, not to mention the other questionable grants made in their jont tenure to fund organisations linked to terrorism. This article should not be just another "puff piece" for Obama's campaign, but provide a spectrum of information on the man. Cdcdoc (talk) 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is written in a summary style, and cannot sustain the level of detail you are seeking without imposing undue weight. My solution alerts the reader to an association with Bill Ayers without risking defamation (Kossack's version described him as an "unrepentant bomber") or conflation (by linking Wright, Rezko and Ayers in the same sentence) and provides blue links to Bill Ayers and the campaign article where the reader can learn more. This approach is consistent with the rest of the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

(@ Cdcdoc, referring to these edits) I removed your recent contribution which was inaccurate and misleading. Exelon has 17,200 employees. The NYT reported the combined contributions of the employees and executives for over a number of years(presumably including contributions that date to the article's recent publication and not just prior to Obama's work on the bill). But you incorrectly attributed the aggregate contribution to the company itself and not to its employees and executives. Even if you had, the amount in question may not have preceded Obama's work as you stated. Furthermore, there is a substantial difference between the NYT raising concerns of undue influence and a contrived statement implying quid pro quo. Modocc (talk) 19:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Coming in a bit late here (I got distracted at Jeremiah Wright controversy), but I support Scjessey's solution to the Ayers matter. Seems very reasonable to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I support Scjessey's edit too, as I simply forgot to mention above, having been hurried. The solution is great, a bloody brilliant edit, as it adds in the relevant information needed at the appropriate level. Modocc (talk) 17:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Same. --Ubiq (talk) 05:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Scjessey's proposed edit is a smoothly scripted shoehorn. Ask this: how is the Ayers membership on the Woods Fund board or the hosting of an event in 1996 worthy of inclusion in a summary section describing Obama's early life and career? Isn't any Ayers-related text best handled in the campaign subarticle as other editors here have previously stated? Please help to keep this article's first section evenly weighted and do not let it continue to devolve into a venue for election year attention seeking. --HailFire (talk) 06:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It isn't really worthy of inclusion. Even a cursory glance at my comments above would indicate I am opposed to mentioning Bill Ayers at all; however, it dawned on me that Obama's participation in the Woods Fund was significant, so I saw an opportunity to offer a compromise to all the Hannity fans who wanted to see Ayers mentioned. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with HailFire... There really isn't a problem with mentioning Obama's involvement in the Woods Fund in the early life and career section, but Ayers should really be in Presidential campaign section (if he is mentioned at all in this article). --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems that editors for and against the inclusion of this are pretty evenly matched. What should we do? As I have mentioned before, my mantra is: "If in doubt, leave it out!" -- Scjessey (talk) 18:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, this current version.;) I would not be opposed to having the first sentence in your proposal included in the Early life and career section and a modified version of the last two in the Presidential campaign section after the Wright controversy paragraph or appended to the end of that paragraph. Something along the lines of "Obama's relationship with Weatherman founder Bill Ayers, who hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996 and joined him on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago in 1999, also drew scrutiny." --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I could live with Bobble's approach - basically accomplishes what some want but not in Early life where Ayers doesn't belong at all. But given the option I'd have Ayers only in the sub article rather than giving it more weight here than it deserves. Tvoz/talk 19:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it would be better suited to the sub article if that is what everyone decides. I'm still convinced this Ayers business is just a smear campaign not worthy of mention in Wikipedia (flag-pinnery). Frankly, I am surprised that there was so little argument against it earlier (see parent of this section). -- Scjessey (talk) 19:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I don't really care if it is included in this article or not, but it should really be mentioned in the campaign sub-article in some manner. The impact of Obama's relationship with Ayers has been but a minor pothole in the road in comparison to Obama's relationship with Wright and most polls that try to measure the impact of Ayers always include Wright in the same question (like the one Josiah mentions above), so it is impossible to say if they said there was an impact because of Ayers, Wright, or both. My presumption is that the answers are mostly in regards to Wright because there really isn't a difference between the polls that mention Wright alone and those that mention both. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I probably should clarify my stance. My concurrence was more so a statement of IF this is going to be mentioned, it should be done in this way (scjessey's version). I too don't see it particularly necessary to include it. --Ubiq (talk) 21:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've striked my support due to HailFire's objection. As to adding a mention in the campaign summary, I'm neutral. Modocc (talk) 13:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Images

Should the article use images from his senate photo gallery at http://obama.senate.gov/photo/ ?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

One problem we've had with using images from his senate photo gallery is that even though they are on a .gov website the images were not actually taken by an employee of the federal government, so are copyrighted. We'd have to get clarification on the copyright status of those images before we can call them PD and use them. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

US government offices are to declare when the copyright is held by the photographer when posted on a website. The website and its information are created by a US government employee in the course of his or her duties.[11] According to a document on that page compiled by the Conference on Fair Use, a FU rationale is stronger if the digital image is much smaller than the original: a "thumbnail" image. "Thumbnail" images technically do little to compete with the original photograph and Google's use of "thumbnails" was held to be fair use in its lawsuit with Perfect 10 because of its transformative nature. The senate "photo gallery" is actually a "digital image gallery," which are reproductions of photographs. The senate photos, if used in the article, should a fair use rationale claiming that the digital images are US government works and the transformative nature of the digital images used constitutes a fair use of the photographic copyright whether held by the photographer or as assigned to the US government (works assigned but not created by the US government retain their copyright and therefore would not fall under public domain until after the copyright expired). Legis Nuntius (talk) 18:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Featured articles, particularly biographies of living people, try to avoid the use of fair use images as much as possible because many of the FA reviewers are of the opinion that since the person is still alive, then the image is "easily replaceable". Of course, there are exceptions made for historically important photographs, but those are few and far between. There isn't anything currently on Obama's photo gallery that is historically important and, unfortunately, the Obama senate page has a history of poorly noting the copyright status, so there really isn't much point in using the images currently stored there. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

A history of poorly noting the copyright status? The directive is that if the copyright holder is someone other than a US government office, then that person is to be credited. I'm not sure that the extent of the copyright issue with the photographs could be discovered short of a FOIA request. Nevertheless, the copyright holder identity would be irrelevant under a fair use rationale. I would suggest resizing the existing photographs to make the image smaller. Their use on this article is fair given their size, but larger images on the specific image page is a weaker argument. The rationale for use should be changed to fair use for each because the photos would have a copyright even if assigned to the government by contract. I'm not sure what fair use has to do with whether an image is "easily replaceable." That is not part of the fair use analysis. The 1st Amendment is the backbone of fair use. That Obama is a public figure gets factored into the "nature of the copyrighted work," (see Time Inc. v. Bernard Geis Associates) although his status as a public figure is not dispositive of fair use. (see Harper & Row). If the digital images comply with copyright law, their copyright status should have no bearing on the FA status of the article. Any fair use argument is bolstered by simply reducing the size of the image, thanks to Google and its lawyers. As for the subject matter, that is a separate issue. Legis Nuntius (talk) 02:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point. Our policies implicitly forbid us from using images under fair use unless absolutely necessary. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Non-free content. Generally speaking, for a BLP of a extremely well known, extremely public figure, it is unlikely any images under fair use will be allowed unless there is something extremely special, irreplacable and extremely important about what the image depicts. Free images, regardless of whether they are copyrighted or not, however are okay. Images produced by the US government or it's employees during their work for the US government are generally in the public domain and not copyrighted, and therefore they are free images by definition. Please be aware that although wikipedia is hosted in the US, our aim is to be a free encylopaedia for everyone, and part of this means that we don't only consider US law Nil Einne (talk) 09:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no conflict of laws between the Berne convention and US copyright law for this issue. The domestic law of the US would apply for copyrighted works that originated from the US.[12] I see that my legal knowledge is a lost cause here. There is a stronger argument for removing Mickey Mouse. The saying among copyright attorneys goes: "Disney always wins." That wikipedia non-free image policy would include images that have a weaker fair use rationale and exclude images that have a stronger fair use rationale would go against common sense. I direct you to a link at the top of the non-free image policy page to wikipedia's policy on common sense. Legis Nuntius (talk) 03:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Revert

Ok, so I reverted the most recent addition of information following the latest primaries. Generally it was good info, and I was -really- trying to stay away from making actual edits to this article, but I also wanted to short circuit a possible flame up of tension around here. So, what say thee editors? I would think from the way this discussion page reads that all the campaign stuff should be shunted into the campaign article, and the rest should probably hold off under the guise of being too recent and a little crystal ballish. (By the way, feel free to revert me, I was just trying to get your attention to the talk page, this is a pretty senstive article and changes without discussion tend not to last). Arkon (talk) 00:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The section tends to be updated with the latest results in the primaries and caucuses as those tend to be "set in stone". Generally not in as flowery of language as was added, but the results are at least mentioned. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 15:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Rewording

These races were seen as Clinton's last chance to make a comeback in the nomination fight. - i think this needs rewording. We know what its trying to say but isnt quite accurate. It can be argued quite fairly that Clinton had already made a number of comebacks in the campaign. The sentance can be read to mean that their wasnt any clinton comebacks at all. I think it just needs a little clarifying. Cheers. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 19:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Would "...last chance to make a final comeback..." or "...final chance to make a another comeback..." work? Although, I don't see the distinction you're drawing. The sentence isn't saying Clinton hasn't made comeback's before, just that NC and IN were the last chance she had.. (Although, Clinton would argue she has a pretty good chance even now). --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Seems like it would fit much better in the campaign article imo. Arkon (talk) 20:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I think a more accurate statement would be that the primary results made it even harder for her to get the nomination. The sentance implies that A) Shes never had any comebacks (which see did) B) The games over (we cant be 100% sure yet). Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 20:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is pretty obvious to everyone, except to Clinton herself, that the game has been over since she lost Texas. Only some kind of scandalous revelation could make any difference, and none have been forthcoming (despite efforts to conflate Ayers/Rezko/Wright by the right-wing media and the Clintons). I'm not in favor of any of this election recentism, and I think specific details of primary wins and losses should be left to the campaign article. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"Actually, it is pretty obvious to everyone, except to Clinton herself, that the game has been over since she lost Texas. Only some kind of scandalous revelation could make any difference, and none have been forthcoming (despite efforts to conflate Ayers/Rezko/Wright by the right-wing media and the Clintons)." It is remarks like this one that make me skeptical about the ability of certain editors here to keep their biases under control. Even now, Hillary Clinton could still win the nomination. The closing arguments in the Rezko trial started today and the jury could have a verdict as early as Thursday. Tomorrow is the West Virginia primary, and Tuesday, May 20 is the Kentucky primary; polls indicate that Hillary's lead over Obama in both states is in the 2-to-1 range. Also, one could hardly call ABC News and the Associated Press "right-wing media." Kossack4Truth (talk) 22:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Farther up the page this same editor said, "Only the right wing loonies are 'scrutinizing' Obama's connection with Ayers." The questions about Bill Ayers in the debate were asked by George Stephanopoulos, who served as press secretary for Bill Clinton. Again, one could hardly call Stephanopoulos a "right-wing looney," unless of course one can find a spot far enough to his left on the political spectrum from which Stephanopoulos appears right-wing. That would have to be somewhere near anarchy or socialism. Sorry, but some very mainstream and notable journalists are questioning these links between Obama and the bomb-tossing left. It is only fair to include this material. Kossack4Truth (talk) 23:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

"Even now, Hillary Clinton could still win the nomination." - Like I said, only with some amazing, scandalous, and highly unlikely last-minute revelation. The game is over. Insert coin. As for George Stephanopoulos is concerned, please remember that he was specifically asked by the acerbic, right-wing lunatic Sean Hannity to question Obama about Bill Ayers. None of the MSM are questioning Obama about Bill Ayers except the "fair and balanced" FOX News and their sympathizers. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Careful now, your slip is showing... Arkon (talk) 00:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

My political views are available for all to see on my user page. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the offending sentence since I can't really think of a reason why it should be covered in this article. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, cheers. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 21:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Bobblehead, you've "removed the offending sentence"? Who is it offending? I noticed that Realist2 quickly agreed, perhaps because he's a Hillary supporter (cf: his talk page). Are we providing adjustment to information to appease the activists or are we trying to align with an accurate presentation of information? ..... it just gets curioser and curioser .... Oxfordden (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I like obama too, if you carry on reading my page you will actual see that my views are more inline with obamas, thankfully i do have a NPOV, im a proud liberal who loves fox news, get your head around that. Please have good faith. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 23:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

yea, right. I have faith in fact, and when it stares me in the face - I listen. Oxfordden (talk) 21:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Political positions

Hi all, I'm writing to inquire why this revision I made was reverted by User:Scjessey. The small paragraph I added read:

Critics of the Illinois Senator have noted what they argue are contradictions within his positions. Fred Siegel of National Review wrote, "Obama is the internationalist opposed to free trade. He is the friend of race baiters who thinks Don Imus deserved to be fired... He is the post-racialist supporter of affirmative action."

Scjessey called the paragraph "POV cherry-picking"; I call it legitimate criticisms of Obama's political record. If I did any cherry picking, it was in Obama's favor, as the full paragraph in National Review read:

"Obama is the internationalist opposed to free trade. He is the friend of race baiters who thinks Don Imus deserved to be fired. He is proponent of courage in the face of powerful interests who lacked the courage to break with Reverend Wright. He is the man who would lead our efforts against terrorism, yet was friendly with Bill Ayres, an unrepentent 1960s terrorist. He is the post-racialist supporter of affirmative action. He is the enemy of Big Oil who takes money from executives at Exxon-Mobil, Shell, and British Petroleum."

So as you can see, out of six legitimate criticisms, I picked the ones that I thought were the most appropriate and the least controversial. I even wrote a nice introduction sentence, specifically detailing that they are the views of Obama's critics and it is only they that argue that there are contradictions. These are part of Obama's political positions, like it or not, and their story needs to be told as well. Happyme22 (talk) 00:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Let give Scjessey a chance to explain his revert. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 01:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the addition because there was no point to it, other than to offer another platform for Siegel's neo-conservative point of view. How, for example, can you justify adding a mention (and a blue link) to Don Imus in a BLP of Barack Obama? -- Scjessey (talk) 01:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Well this article is already a platform for obamas click of loyalists(as in liberal jornalisitic sources), maybe some opposing views are not such a bad thing, although some of those lines arent necassary or relevant. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 01:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, thanks for the response. I understand that you had a reason to remove the edit, but I'm not sure where you are coming from. I'm not sure why it would be inappropriate to link to Don Imus. And Realist2, I'm in favor of implementing the first paragraph, not the second, because I agree that some mentioned in the second paragraph are irrelevant. Happyme22 (talk) 01:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that most of the first paragraph should be included, there are some good points there, the Don imus part isnt important though. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 01:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Rather than being a "platform for a obamas[sic] click[sic] of loyalists," I would argue that this article is an excellent example of how Wikipedia should be written. It is factually-accurate and neutrally-presented, with a nice balance of detail and necessary brevity. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that this article is POV; let's try to get back on topic. I am asking you, Scjessey, why you feel that mentioning Don Imus is inappropriate. It was specifically part of the quote as an example where Sen. Obama was demonstrating inconsistency with his positions. Happyme22 (talk) 01:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I would've thought it was obvious, but I guess not. You don't see anything wrong in evoking (and linking to) the name of a highly-controversial, arguably racist, talk show host who has no connection whatsoever with Obama? -- Scjessey (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, mocking my spelling (im tired and english isnt my first language) and going off topic isnt going to resolve this. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 01:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not mocking you. See Sic. Your comment about this being a "platform" et al was what took us off topic. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Im fully aware of what sic is for, i just believe its rude. Now please address the point at hand, cheers. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 01:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I see A critic that is making a claim that that there are contradictions within his positions, which makes me wonder if this is a extreme minority view and that inclusion of this theory would be a violation of WP:WEIGHT. It also makes me wonder if assigning that single critics opinion to all of his critics is appropriate and is actually an incorrect attribution to claim that it is a view of Obama's critics. Based on that one source, it is only apparent that Fred Seigel finds the contradiction. Just because someone is critical of Obama's position does not mean that we have to run to Wikipedia and add it to his article in order to "balance out the positive POV". --Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree on that point, more sources should be used to back up these ideas, if more are found ...Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 01:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point Bobblehead. Here's some more: [13], [14], [15]; Sen. Clinton has also attacked his "inconsistent record": [16], [17]. Happyme22 (talk) 03:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason why this can't be interleaved with the existing prose in this article and on the political positions article? Every politician has inconsistencies in their record which should be pointed out with the weight that they are due, but it seems to me that dedicating an entire paragraph to just the inconsistencies has the same problem that a "Criticism" or "Controversy" section would have. I'm also not seeing where the comments by Siegel are supported by anyone other than himself and is applying definitions that are purely his own construct. Obama has never characterized himself as an "internationalist" and his views are more in line with Cosmopolitanism than they are Internationalism. Now, the criticism of Obama's opposition to the Iraq War seem to have merit and should be included in this article as that position is actually mentioned in this article. I'm also concerned on the over-reliance upon opinion pieces which have a history of being rather loose with the facts. As an example, The Kitsap Sun piece seems to be conflating Obama's positions on income tax, social security taxes, and the overarching "payroll taxes" that covers income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, unemployment taxes, etc. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem weaving criticisms into the text. And you are correct in saying that just about every politician has inconsistencies, including Barack Obama. I think that his platform as a post-racial boundaries candidate who supports affirmative action deserves mention, as well the criticism of his views on the Iraq War. Happyme22 (talk) 00:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The iraq war less so, but the affirmative action point is rather interesting actually, it is a contradiction in some respects, i would support adding that but it must be worded carefully. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 17:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I also find that one interesting. How should we go about wording it, and where in the political positions section should it go? I'm just not sure where it should be added because I think we are now all in favor of weaving it into the text. Any proposals? Happyme22 (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Ill give others a chance to comment, if not ill look into adding it. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 20:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a hard time seeing why either would warrant mention in his BLP. Inconsistencies are something that gets pointed out to any candidate...not sure why there's a big push to get stuff like this in the article if it's not particularly notable over any other criticism that's been directed towards him. --Ubiq (talk) 21:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Did Clinton win the Indiana primary by 1% or 2%?

It seems really odd to say that Clinton won the Indiana primary by 2%, when the actual percentages (rounded to hundredths of a percent) are 50.56% Clinton, 49.44% Obama, meaning Clinton actually won by 1.12%. I understand how one arrives at the 2% number, but you get 2% by compounding rounding errors, which is faulty math.

It's not a huge deal or anything, just seems strange is all. WIth this method of counting, it's only possible to win or lose by even percentages, which really irritates the mathematician in me. --Ashenai (talk) 09:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Me, too. Mathematically false is false, period. Prev cite didn't give numbers, so I added one which did, and it says 51-49 but I calc the "51" is ~50.557%, so I changed 2% to 1%. Satifies WP:PSTS, by my lights, since this level of arithmetic doesn't require "specialist knowledge". Andyvphil (talk) 12:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama ignoring gay media

Throughout his campaign he has ignored the gay media. None of the twelve member newspapers of the National Gay Newspaper Guild had been granted an interview with Obama, even though all of them had asked. He has only recently talked to a few gay media sources, and even then has been reluctant. And you’ll notice that he only started talking to gay news sources after he has been called out for not doing so by the Philadelphia Gay News in Pennsylvania. They have an article about it. Why is this not included here or in his positions? QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 12:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that he stated some of his positions (no pun intended) with respect to LBGT issues during the Hardball College Tour. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I think obamas position is quite clear from the link scjessey just gave, i suggest it is added to the article if not already. I would also advise Quirky to remain civil. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 16:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

His views with respect to LBGT issues are given coverage at Political positions of Barack Obama#LGBT issues, although probably a little inadequately. Personally, I don't think his positions are outside the mainstream enough to warrant a specific mention in his BLP. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah your right, i was expecting him to lean slightly more to the left on that issue though. Still its nohing worth discussing. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 16:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Superdelegates

Apparently (according to fox news), obama now leads in superdelegates, its worth a mention in the article in my opinion. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 17:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The superdelegate math is even more variable than the pledged delegate math. CNN has it 268 Obama to 272 Clinton, NY Times is 266 Obama to 264 Clinton, and the AP is 271 Obama to 272 Clinton. All in all, it's best to keep the source consistent throughout the article. If the AP is being used for the pledged delegate source, then the AP should be used for the superdelegate source. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I can understand why we have a section on Obama's presidential campaign, but I cannot understand why there is so much detail in it. Specific primary results and delegate counts are surely not in the spirit of WP:RECENT - especially when this section is only supposed to be a summary to a comprehensive campaign article. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I imagine a lot of it will get removed with time, what seems important now might not seem important in 9 months. These things work themselves out. Regarding the delegates, agreed, leave till there is consensus amongst the experts at the very least. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 20:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey.. WP:RECENT is an essay, not a guideline or policy, so not sure why this articles gives so much importance to it. But like Realist2 said.. As the campaign evolves, the details of the primaries will probably lose their importance as general election info rises in importance. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm well aware that it is an essay, but I happen to think it is very valid - particularly with respect to a BLP. Too many articles suffer from having to be continuously updated (which usually means they are dated), and going into excessive detail about recent events raises undue weight concerns as well. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah i wouldnt worry Scjessey, in a few months time things will be removed and no1 will blink an eye. Realist² ('Come Speak To Me') 20:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

BLPs are constantly in flux, particularly if their "star is rising" like Obama's. It's one of the downfalls of a "real-time" encyclopedia. Things will rise and fall in importance as ime passes. Right now the primaries are extremely important in Obama's life, so they have a prominent mention in the section. If he wins the Dem. candidacy, the general election info will start pushing the Primary info out, if he wins the general election, his presidency will start pushing the general election and Senate section off the main page. Etc. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

New scandal brewing

I'm not saying this necessarily should be in the article yet, but it probably warrants some additional research on the issue. Basically, a news story reported that a captured laptop computer provides tangible evidence linking FARC and Hugo Chavez. Also, it provides evidence that seems to indicate supporters of Barack Obama have attempted to reach out to FARC to discuss "various issues." [18] RonCram (talk) 03:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a controversy there, just a splashing of Obama's name. Heck, if you really read the article, it is saying President Bush is trying to open up talks with Columbia (I.E. for the free trade deal amung other things) while what the article said about Obama: "They say the new president of their country will be (Barack) Obama," noting that Obama rejects both the Bush administration's free trade agreement with Colombia and the current military aid program." From what it looks like, if Obama becomes president, he won't support the Farc, the free trade agreement, or the military aid program. Brothejr (talk) 10:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

@RonCram: Even if there were anything to this story, which there isn't, you wouldn't be able to use WorldNetDaily as your source. This is just another right-wing smear tactic, rather than any sort of serious "news story," as you describe it. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

With the Ecuadorian government as a cutout it doesn't seem possible to identify which "gringos...[who] say the new president of their country will be (Barack) Obama" are interested "in talking to [FARC] on various issues". Could develop into an embarassment, like the reassurances to Canada, squared, but is several steps removed at present. Andyvphil (talk) 22:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Headings

He served in the state Senate before running for U.S. Senate. So, the headings "Senate campaign" and "Senate carrer" are confusing. This could be fixed by inserting the word "U.S." at the start of each of those two headings.Ferrylodge (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)