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European low-cost airlines and the way they advertise airports: how to list?

Hi,

There's a sort of dispute regarding how to list low-cost served airports. I didn't find any discussion about this here, so I'm starting this topic. Let's take a few examples:

  • BVA : official name is "Beauvais-Tillé", according to WP page it serves Beauvais, it is operated by the Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie de l'Oise. But advertised as "Paris-Beauvais" by low-cost airlines when it should be "Beauvais".
  • XCR : official name "Châlons-Vatry", serves Châlons-en-Champagne, operated by the Conseil Général de la Marne through the SEVE. But advertised as "Paris-Vatry" when it should be "Châlons-Vatry" or "Vatry".
  • RYG : official name "Moss Airport, Rygge", serves Rygge, operated by Rygge Sivile Lufthavn AS. But advertised as "Oslo-Rygge" when it should be "Rygge" or "Rygge-Moss" since there is also a military base with IATA and ICAO codes.

We could extend this list to (Frankfurt)-Hahn, (Venice-)Treviso, (Milano-)Bergamo-Orio al Serio, etc.

I would personally support the idea of "call them with their real names". There has already been a discussion where two airlines used different names for the same airport, everyone agreed that the same name should be used everywhere.

Slasher-fun (talk) 10:42, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As this is not a travel guide then if airline x goes to airport y then list as such if the airline calls it different name then it is not really relevant to a list of destinations. If the airline makes a habit of it then it can be mentioned in the article prose as in the Ryanair article. The guide for the airport name normally should be whatever the airport article is named. MilborneOne (talk) 10:49, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On a semi-related note, a new-ish editor (Felipealavarez) is bent on changing the existing listing of several airports, applying his own logic. I tried to explain that we list destination cities and not destination airports, but that doesn't seem to have helped.
I am also working on putting together a list of all such problem airports and then we can collectively work towards agreeing on how they are to be listed. Should be done in a couple of days and that should help with the Beauvais, Hahn situation too. jasepl (talk) 06:30, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could you publish this list on a draft page on your discussion page or profile so that everyone can easily add airports that are concerned with this discussion? Slasher-fun (talk) 10:07, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just saw your list... Good start! I should have mine done shortly and will try to follow your example! jasepl (talk) 13:22, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is how Malaga list FR departures

RR2535 12:35 BRATISLAVA/M.R. STEFANIK AIRPORT (BTS)

RYR6566 14:15 GLASGOW /PRESTWICK (PIK)

RYR2511 16:55 PARIS /BEAUVAIS-TILLE (BVA)

RYR1929 17:50 BRUSELAS /CHARLEROI (CRL)

RYR8613 18:30 DUSSELDORF /WEEZE (NRN)

RYR4613 19:40 FRANKFURT /HAHN (HHN)

RYR8163 20:45 LONDRES /STANSTED (STN)

RYR6653 20:55 EDIMBURGO (EDI)


This is how Dublin list FR departures

London-STN - Ryanair FR205

Paris-BVA - Ryanair FR025

London-LGW - Ryanair FR113

Milan-BGY - Ryanair FR942

Rygge - Ryanair FR859

Brussels South - Ryanair FR043

Berlin - Ryanair FR8559

Frankfurt - Ryanair FR1949

Memmingen - Ryanair FR2413

Stockholm - Ryanair FR963

All airports are different but most of them list Paris-BVA, Oslo-Rygge, Frankfurt-Hahn etc. Even though they are miles away from the city. Jamie2k9 (talk) 11:48, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK but we're here to report facts, not to report the names that some low-cost airlines would like to use. So here is a preliminary incomplete list, feel free to fill it with appropriate airports. Slasher-fun (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Each airport and airline may have a different way of representing the same thing, and its just not feasible to go by what they're doing. It's best to come up with our own method. jasepl (talk) 13:22, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note, this is similar on how to list the flights (especially Continental Airlines) to Newark, New Jersey.....it has been insisted that it should be listed as "New York-Newark". However, the marjority of the US carriers advertise EWR as "Newark, NJ" while Continental and most foreign carriers advertise the flights as "New York". Snoozlepet (talk) 23:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kind of, but EWR is operated by Port Authority NY/NJ as well are JFK and LGA, and EWR is not further from Manhattan than JFK. But I agree this is a "complicated" case too. Slasher-fun (talk) 18:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But EWR is actually called "Newark Liberty International Airport" with no "New York" in its name. Also, one user insists on disam Madrid but Madrid's wiki page states that the city is served by Barajas Airport...it also mentions another airport but it as no commercial service. Snoozlepet (talk) 19:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
JFK and LGA has no "New York" either in their names, but I agree that EWR should be called Newark. Anyway that's not the point here, it's already pretty complicated ^^ Regarding Madrid, the -Barajas is useless as you said, same as I mistakently used "Beauvais-Tillé" instead of simply using "Beauvais". Slasher-fun (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"we're here to report facts,"

Paris BVA - Over 2.5million passengers in 2009. At leats 80-90% of them would of went to Paris. With around 60,000 living in Beauvais they would only be a small % of them using BVA.

Milan BGY - Over 7.1million passengers in 2009. Around 120,000 people living in area. Just because an airport is located outside a city that dosn't mean that it only serves the area where it's located. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.103.152 (talk) 13:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't mix up the area an airport serves with where people actually go. I sometimes fly out of Brussels instead of Paris for example, since it's only an 80 min trip from Paris (like going to Beauvais...), and that's not a reason to say that Brussels airport serves Paris area. To keep Beauvais as an example (the one I know the most), Paris is as far from Beauvais than are Rouen (600,000), Compiègne (200,000), Amiens (300,000), and basically all the Picardie region (2 million). Beauvais airport initially serves Beauvais, otherwise it wouldn't have been called Beauvais. Or you're gonna say as well that for example Carcassonne airport serves Toulouse since there are only 50,000 inhabitants in Carcassonne maybe?... Slasher-fun (talk) 17:32, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Oxford Airport changed its name to London-Oxford Airport. Does that mean the airport physically moved? Does it mean it stopped serving Oxford overnight? jasepl (talk) 19:38, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you meant, but yes London-Oxford still serves Oxford, and London-Oxford is the official name of the airport, not how some airlines like to designate it. Anyway, does anyone else who has not yet contributed here have an opinion? Slasher-fun (talk) 18:11, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion

So we have :

So as of now, we'll be using the "serves" column for the disputed airports reported in this table instead of the "disputed alternate name" for both the destination list in airport pages and the airline destinations pages. Feel free to add any airport that would be missing from the table. Slasher-fun (talk) 12:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problems with keeping the status quo. I hope to have my list done shortly - sorry it's taking longer than I anticipated! jasepl (talk) 14:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Both view points should be presented

Let me quote a fundamental policy of wikipedia: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." The airline itself is a reliable source, and should be treated as such. Of course airlines sometimes choose destination names to suit their needs, while other reliable sources will argue that there is a more accurate destination name. In this case, both viewpoints should be represented. For this reason, I think we should revisit the above discussion, to ensure Wikipedia's policies are being followed. Mlm42 (talk) 18:32, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that while the airline might be an RS, it's also a primary source. So they must be "trusted, but verified". - The Bushranger Return fireFlank speed 19:26, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that many articles use the airline's webpage as the only source.. so while I agree we must be careful using primary sources, we also must be careful that we aren't doing original research - for example, renaming the destinations of airlines to names preferred by a (small?) group of editors. Such a move has to be backed up by reliable secondary sources.. and it's not clear to me this has been done. Mlm42 (talk) 22:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about "names preferred by a (small?) group of editors", this is about using the real name of the city served by that airport. Imagine that one airline designates CDG as "Paris-Roissy" and another one as "Paris-Charles de Gaulle": well, for both we're going to use "Paris-Charles de Gaulle", because CDG serves Paris, and since there are more than one airport serving Paris we're adding the official name of the airport "Charles de Gaulle" ; well it has to be the same for every airport: it's not because an airline wants to say that an airport serves another city than the one it actually serves that we have to follow that, we just need to use the actual city served, plus the airport name if there is more than one active airport. Slasher-fun (talk) 23:20, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't entirely agree with what you've said. Let's say an airline designated one of its destinations (CDG) as "Paris-Roissy", and we try to list the destinations of the airline. Then we should not ignore the airline's point of view. Somewhere we should say that the airline called this destination "Paris-Roissy". It's not up to us at Wikipedia to tell airlines they are wrong. We simply report the facts, and the fact is, some airlines use destination names not consistent with other sources. This is a fundamental aspect of Wikipedia, and I'm a little concerned that NPOV is not being followed here. Mlm42 (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can't imagine what airport destinations lists would look like then... To keep it simple, we could just add this information in the destination list of each airline. Slasher-fun (talk) 20:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Slasher-fun, exactly; that's all I'm saying. For consistency we can take from our own list of destinations, but the destination names which the airline itself uses should also be somewhere in the list; maybe in brackets, or maybe in another column. Mlm42 (talk) 02:29, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ok with that, so that we can have both consistency and the airline "point of view". Would that be a problem for someone here? o/ Slasher-fun (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consider, for example, this edit, where AirBerlin's destination of "Lanzarote" was changed to "Arrecife". This is a problem, because AirBerlin states the destination as "Lanzarote". If someone compares AirBerlin's website to this article, they might think there is a mistake - Lanzarote isn't on the destination list! I would suggest that in this case we write "Lanzarote (Arrecife)", or even "Lanzarote (Arrecife)", with a link to the airport. Similarly, for the RyanAir destination, Milan (Bergamo). Or maybe there are other options, but whatever the convention, the Airline's name for the destination should be mentioned somewhere nearby. Mlm42 (talk) 17:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, one user continues to change "Madrid" to "Madrid-Barajas" for Ryanair. There is only 1 airport in Madrid that has commercial service and that is Barajas Airport...all the other airports in Madrid are either military or general aviation only. Since the project guideline state that whenever there are multiple airports that serve a city, it should be disambiguated and yes Madrid are served by other airports. However, I suggest changing the guidelines to say disambiguate cities with multiple airports that have commercial passsenger service. Snoozlepet (talk) 12:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Slasher-fun (talk) 23:20, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Years for start dates

I think the WP:AIRPORTS page content on about the 13 months standard for adding the year for new services needs to be changed. I think that couple of people are disagreeing with the 13 months standard. And I think that the year needs to be include in the date to avoid confusion. Snoozlepet (talk) 23:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I'll remove this from the guideline. Mlm42 (talk) 20:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I tried to remove it from the guideline, but I was reverted. More comments would be welcome, please. Mlm42 (talk) 23:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the need to add the year. Few announcements are made that far out, and since service changes are supposed to be cited, readers can always check the source if they're in doubt about the exact start dated. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 03:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Most service changes are announced a few month ahead. So, no reason to change. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. But I'd like to point out that the official manual of style (see WP:DATESNO) says "Yearless dates are inappropriate unless the year is obvious from the context." And although regular editors at this WikiProject seem to think the year is obvious, I claim that to the casual reader the year is not obvious. How are they to know the page is actually kept up to date? And anyway, why not have the year? Because it takes up too much space? What harm could it do??
I think this is an important point, because it appears this WikiProject's guidelines are not in-line with the more broadly accepted Manual of Style. Mlm42 (talk) 03:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is your opinion. I don't see this as a big problem. Vegaswikian (talk) 04:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You don't think it's a big problem to contradict the Manual of Style? And you haven't answered the question: What harm could adding the year do? Mlm42 (talk) 06:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is your opinion that the year is not clear in this context. There is no contradiction since this form is allowed by the MoS. The issue is simply, is the year clear from the context? Your position is no. Others agree that it is clear. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is my opinion that the year is not obvious for context, in particular for readers who are not familiar with the workings of this WikiProject (so, most readers). A reason for removing the year has still not been provided. The only reason I can see is for consistency; while in many cases consistency across a large class of articles is good, I don't think this is one of those cases. By removing the year, we are removing information from Wikipedia. And no one has explained how this improves the encyclopedia. Mlm42 (talk) 15:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dont have a strong opinion about the year being mentioned but I dont think it does any harm to mention it. Probably more important to make sure it is reliably referenced. It starts to get a bit crystal ball ish when it gets more than a year so I support a time cap on entries, I would even say that any more then the next season is bound to be a bit iffy. MilborneOne (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so how about we change (in the page Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Style guide/Layout (Airports)) the line "Starting dates must be provided with full date (without the year if the begin date is less than 12 months)," to "Starting dates must be provided with full date (if the begin date is less than 12 months then the year isn't necessary, but it doesn't hurt to include it)". From what people have said, this sounds like it may be a good compromise? Mlm42 (talk) 22:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We cannot leave it as an option because then there will always be controversy as to how it will be, on personal pref. I think we should leave they year out unless it is more than 12 months until the start date. I don't see the problem with the current policy. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 22:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Years being used in Start Dates (less than 12 mo's in future)

Support

  • Would help to disambiguate between a forgotten "begins XX" for the current year and a "legitimate" one for the next year, especially on less-popular airport/airline destinations pages. Slasher-fun (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adding the years does no harm, and not all readers would be confident the pages are up to date. For this reason I think it is important to add the year - or at least not prevent other users from adding the year. Still nobody has provided a reason why it is better to not include the year. Mlm42 (talk) 16:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

  • Comment. This vote doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and probably shouldn't be used in place of discussion. I'm still waiting for someone to provide a reason why it is better to not include the year. It seems the year isn't necessary, but it also seems silly to have a policy which prohibits the year from appearing. If it is necessary to set a policy to either include or not include the start dates, as Tofutwitch11 suggests, then why not insist the year is included? What harm could that do? The problem with the current policy is that some readers could conceivably view it as ambiguous.. I think an encyclopedia should strive to be as unambiguous as possible. Mlm42 (talk) 03:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the year does no harm

Still nobody has provided a reason for why it's better to not include the year; furthermore, there seems to be general agreement that the year does no harm. Some editors (myself included) think it is, in fact, better to include the year, for reasons stated above. There also seems to be a desire to give explicit instructions, one way or the other, in the advice page. So, if noone objects, I'd like to change the advice page accordingly, to "We prefer starting dates to include the year". Mlm42 (talk) 02:14, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have not had enough participation in this discussion (unfortunately) for consensus to be changed, I just think [begins June 21, 2011] looks stupid if it is March 2011, and [begins June 21] will be fine, and less confusing. No need to add more text to the article. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 22:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was too busy to comment weeks earlier, but let me tell you my experience. When a date label is close to one year in the future (e.g. 10 months), too often it is mistaken as in the recent past (2 months ago) and gets "corrected" or "updated"--in error. An example is ZGGG if you want to see the mess I was involved with regarding NW's termination of services. If only I could add a year label, then people would know it was "not yet" and leave it alone. I think we can have a consensus that we can move 12 months to 9 months. HkCaGu (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can agree to that, more than nine months in the future should include a year, and then we can remove the year as it gets closer. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 19:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It would appear that the only argument put forward to justify the year not being added, is now the argument put forward by Tofuwitch: "It looks stupid". Tofuwitch also claims that removing the year is less confusing in some cases.. I fail to see the rationale here - how could someone be confused by adding the year? What could they possibly misinterpret "[begins June 21, 2011]" to mean? Even if it's May 2011, and you see it written "[begins June 21]", some readers (myself, for example) would have a lingering doubt.. "How old is that notice? Do they really mean this June?". I'll repeat, it is not obvious to readers and editors who don't frequently edit Wikipedia's airport articles, that these are kept up to date. It may be obvious to anyone reading this, but it's not obvious to everyone. Sigh.
In any case, isn't it better to have consistent advice which doesn't depend on what day it is? 9 months seems completely arbitrary.. so does 12. Mlm42 (talk) 23:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I can't really disagree with your argument. The year "feels" unnecessary and redundant in most cases, but there is no way that adding the year makes things more confusing or less clear. I have no objection to stating that we should always include the year. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 01:44, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yanbu Domestic Airport

This airport gets international flights now, why is it still called domestic.119.155.30.157 (talk) 19:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the article to Yanbu Airport which appears to be the common name in English. MilborneOne (talk) 20:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Style guide template

I was wondering if the new template {{WikiProject style advice}} would be appropriate for the page Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Style guide/Layout (Airports)? This was one of the pages considered when the template was created, so I think it is appropriate. Mlm42 (talk) 22:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, no objections yes, so I'll add the template. If you remove it, please provide an explanation why. This template was created following the recent discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Mlm42 (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Airport Naming - Use of Word "Aerodrome" vs. "Airport"

Many aerodromes are incorrectly named airports. While "airport" is the more common (albeit strictly incorrect) term, if the word "aerodrome" is going to be used in article titles at all, it should be used in all to which the term applies (i.e. any that are not registered as airports - for Canada, see AIM AGA 2.3 - Aerodromes and Airports). The articles that got me thinking about this are:

  • Trenton Aerodrome (renamed from Trenton Airport 14 Apr 2010 - possibly as a means of disambiguation?)
  • Port Hawkesbury Airport (which is not a certified airport, and should be renamed Port Hawkesbury Aerodrome if this naming convention is to be used)

In a brief scan through some of the aerodromes of the Maritimes, I found many others that are incorrectly named if the aerodrome naming convention is to be applied:

While I am not sold on the use of the word aerodrome in article titles, since their common name generally includes the word "airport", I do think that if "aerodrome" it is to be used in some, it should be used in all (repeating myself, I know, but I abhor inconsistency). I personally am leaning towards eliminating the word aerodrome entirely, if for no other reason than its infrequent use. So far I have only noticed its use for Sable Island Aerodrome, Riviere Bell Aerodrome, and Trenton Aerodrome.

In the case of Canadian aerodromes, the CFS indicates whether an aerodrome is an airport in its OPR section - if it is listed as registered (Reg), it is not an airport, if listed as certified (Cert), then it is. I do not know if similarly easily accessible information is available for other countries, or indeed, if other countries even make the distinction.

Comments?
HiFlyChick (talk) 00:28, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason that several Canadian aerodromes are using airport in the title is my fault. When I created those I really didn't think about the difference between them. Since then I have used whatever the CFS uses. I have also moved some from "airport" to "aerodrome" but I haven't done all of them or even really pursued it. The ones I did move tended to be based on needing disambiguation, Trenton Airport (Nova Scotia) to Trenton Aerodrome, but then there is Faro Airport (Yukon) which should be Faro Aerodrome. For the others I would suggest that where the operating body calls it an airport and there is no need for disambiguating it be left at airport with something noting that it is a registered aerodrome. The others should probably be moved. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 02:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We have also an issue with engvar in that the term airport is generally used in the US for any aircraft landing ground, this causes lists of airports to sometimes cover what others outside of the US consider to be aerodromes. It also means that sometimes grass airfields with one hangar and two aircraft are created as airports in good faith. Although in the end as others have said we should use the correct or common name Airport/Aerodrome/Airfield etc. MilborneOne (talk) 14:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Using the common name sounds good - having said that, I can't recall seeing aerodrome used in a common name of any airports I've been to (including Trenton and others mentioned). The CFS does not use either "airport" or "aerodrome" in its name, just the basic name itself - the technical designation of airport/aerodrome is only found as a note under the OPR section. I would therefore like to revert those articles using "aerodrome" to "airport" if common usage dictates (i.e. the tourism site for the town of Trenton refers to the Trenton Airport so it should be reverted).HiFlyChick (talk) 22:14, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's where you run into needing a disambiguation as Trenton Airport already exists. I felt it was better to get rid of the disambiguation even if the operating authority calls it an airport. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 23:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I am misunderstanding how the disambiguation feature works - when I type in Trenton Airport, I get a list of 5 different options, of which Trenton Aerodrome is one. If that were to be renamed Trenton Airport, would I still get the list of 5, or would it take precedence and not show the others? What about calling it Trenton Airport (NS) or Trenton Airport (CYTN)? It just seems somewhat strange to use something other than the common name just because there is a duplicate somewhere else in the world - rather akin to saying "There is already a rock band called Mashed Potatoes, so I will call this article on the common menu item Crushed Potatoes instead..."HiFlyChick (talk) 12:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, didn't explain that well. You would need to move Trenton Aerodrome back to Trenton Airport (Nova Scotia). The use of (Place) seems to be the standard for airports, as it is for geographical features, Victoria Island (Canada). Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 18:27, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case anyone is interested User:CambridgeBayWeather/Sandbox now has Canadian airports separated into three sets. The first are aerodromes that should probably be moved. The ones with external links have sites that use the word airport so they wouldn't need moving. The second are aerodromes that were either created as such or moved there. The last are the certified airports. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 21:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I'm confused - based on the list in CambridgeBayWeather's sandbox (and the above ref to it), it would appear that he is proposing that aerodromes be named based on their technical classification, rather than their common name. I must re-iterate, the CFS does not list aerodrome or airport as part of the name - I would think that whatever town the airport services woud be the authority on the common name (should be able to get info from a town's web site). What about WP:COMMONNAME? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HiFlyChick (talk • contribs) 03:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I didn't explain it well enough. The airports at User:CambridgeBayWeather/Sandbox#Aerodromes listed as airports are ones that are technically aerodromes and should be moved if the common name as give at the aerodromes website does not use the word airport. If the website calls it an airport then that should be taken as the common name, left where it is, and the article should note that it a "registered aerodrome". There are several like that already but I can't think which. The aerodromes that don't have sites next to them are ones that I couldn't find at the time I checked. They may have sites now and would need checking again. In the absence of something showing that the common name is "airport" I think they should be moved to "aerodrome". Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 17:26, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'll check your lists and put notes by the ones that I have found web sites for that indicate a common name(the ones in the Maritimes and Quebec are the ones I'm most familiar with)HiFlyChick (talk) 02:19, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly non-existent: Beloyarsk Airport and Nazran Airport

Whilst creating the destinations list for RusLine, I tried to figure out which airport is meant by Beloyarsky (which is included in the timetable). I found Beloyarsk Airport, only to find out that it was me who created this article roughly one year ago, obviously without any proper sources (the airport does not seem to be included in google maps). No idea why I did this. So, is there anyone who can find of if this airport exists at all, and what airport RusLine flies to? Also, as a side note, Nazran Airport is unreferenced, and I couldn't find any references that this one exists. Per aspera ad Astra (talk) 14:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Airport Beloyarskiy (USHI/EYK). It's placed at Beloyarsky, Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug. Felipealvarez (talk) 15:14, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

United Express flights from CO hubs

I noticed that United Express is now operating flights from Continental hubs now and in the future (operated by Shuttle America and SkyWest Airlines). Are these should be listed as United Express or Continental Express. However, those flights are departing from Continental gates instead of UA gates and if they flying for United Express, shouldn't they depart from United gates? Snoozlepet (talk) 17:14, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shuttle America and SkyWest operate United Express flights; they don't have a Continental Express contract (sister carriers Chautauqua and ExpressJet do, but that's not the same). Plus, due to a recent ruling [1], these flights will not carry the CO code since Continental's contract with its pilots prohibits Continental Express from operating aircraft with more than 50 seats; the flights in question are 70 seat jets. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 21:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How come are they using CO gates at some airports (i.e. ATL). If they are United Express flights then how come they are not departing from CO gates? Snoozlepet (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since both Continental and United are now owned by the same company, they have access to each others resources. And at some point, they'll all be United/United Express flights. -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 21:35, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

User:Felipealvarez's very disruptive behavior

Despite numerous warnings and reverts by pretty much everyone of us who watch those pages, User:Felipealvarez continues to apply his own standard to airport destination listings and disregard anyone's good faith counsel. The latest is happening at Lanzarote Airport. I don't have any time to write him up, so please, if there are any administrator watching here, the least that has to be done is to revoke his Twinkle, and if not block him or even permanently ban him. He is way, way beyond final warning. HkCaGu (talk) 19:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I commented on his talk page, any more behavior like this and I will report him. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 20:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Barajas crap happened again. Last time I reported him, outsider-administrators only saw content dispute and refused to act. Do we have any admin in THIS Wikiproject? HkCaGu (talk) 23:59, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not just Lanzarote Airport but Tenerife South Airport, Fuerteventura Airport and Gran Canaria Airport. User:Felipealvarez also needs to understand that references are not required after the route has commenced. If anybody removes them he will add (Citation Needed) when it is clearly not. Jamie2k9 (talk) 00:26, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Felipealvarez is demanding inline citations as per WP:V (which states "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." Notice the word "must").. why not supply an inline citation? For example, this link doesn't indicate Small Planet Airlines fly to Cork nor to Lanzarote.. but maybe I'm missing something? I've readded the citation needed tag in the mean time.

Regarding the Madrid-Barajas changes, the disagreement appears to be between what airports are officially called and what the airlines call them.. is that correct? As I've been saying above, if there is a difference between what editors at this WikiProject "think" they should be called, and what the airlines themselves call them, then it would violate NPOV to ignore the airlines. This is why I think both names should be present. In short, I think Felipealvarez appears to have a point; and furthermore, I think editors at this WikiProject should make more of an effort to assume good faith. Mlm42 (talk) 19:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Barajas has nothing to do with that issue. Nobody disagree the city is Madrid in this case. It is his unwillingness discuss and to abide by project standards, which require listing the city (not the airport) and disambiguate with airport name if needed. You can see in his edit history that he insisted Barajas needed disambiaguation or that that was the airport's name (which we don't care, if there is no need to disambiguate) and how he changed Milan-XXX to Bergamo-XXX when Bergamo only has one possible airport. HkCaGu (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So the disagreement is that members of this WikiProject want the name of the destination to be simply "Madrid", instead of the name of the airport, which is "Madrid-Barajas", the reason being that Madrid only has one airport so there's no need to disambiguate? Well, I see two reasons to disambiguate. 1) Not everybody knows Madrid has only one airport, and 2) According to the article Madrid, two new airports are planned in the next 5 years. On the other hand, the concern is that including the airport names as well as the destination cities will take up too much room in the destination lists.. is that right?
A reasonable solution might be to have a link Madrid, linking to the airport, but appearing only as the city. Would there be objection to that? Mlm42 (talk) 20:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We had gone over this issue (city, linking to airport) but decided not to, as it would be overly WP:TRAVEL and result in multiple linking or difficulty to manage (between linked and not linked). HkCaGu (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand the justification here. Are you claiming to have overruled the official Wikipedia guideline Wikipedia:Manual of Style (linking), because of some previous WikiProject discussion? Mlm42 (talk) 21:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No not about overruling MOS. If we link we are supposed to link once. Locating and tracking where the first occasion is could be a mess. HkCaGu (talk) 21:07, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's not true. Please re-read WP:REPEATLINK. As an exception to the repeated links rule it says: "where the links are in a table, as each row should stand on its own." Mlm42 (talk) 21:34, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New location map parameters

{{Infobox airport}} has been updated to include a location map. There are some examples at User:Htonl/sandbox and it's being used at Heathrow and Arcola Airport. Currently the documentation has not been updated. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 17:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Airport move in St. George, Utah

St. George Municipal Airport (KSGU) will shut down tonight at midnight MST and the new airport (KDXZ) will open. A new article needs to be created. HkCaGu (talk) 20:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Should have something there shortly. There may be a name issue since it looks like they are keeping the same name. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:35, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have marked the routes as ending today, when the new page is up, they will appear there, as they begin there on 1/13/11.Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 22:50, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have also moved the airport to St. George Municipal Airport (1972-2010), so St. George municipal airport is still open. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 22:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Page updated, all set to go. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 23:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I did some cleanup, including dabbing the incoming links and I think everything is OK now. It would be good for someone to double check, especially the inbound links to both articles. I'll leave it to someone to add appropriate hat notes to both articles. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:33, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tomorrow (13th) is FAA's chart/database update day. All the usual websites will have all the info updated soon, but there are NOTAMs and other info already around by googling "DXZ" and "St. George". HkCaGu (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is it safe to change the former airport's article to past tense or wait until the airport has officially shut down? I went ahead and changed it to past tense but if the airport hasn't shut down yet, you can revert them. Regards! Snoozlepet (talk) 00:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the write ups say the owners have 60 days to remove their aircraft, so that kind of says the airport will be used for operations for at least 60 days. In doing my quick research for the new article, I did not find anything definitive on where the air ambulance service will be based. I suspect the new airport at some point, but we need a source to update the affected articles. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, good job team! Another successful mission by the few who actually work Wikipedia Aviation :P. Tofutwitch11 (TALK) 01:24, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone help me do the following?

Hi can anyone help me do the following for the following airports:

Malaga Airport

  • Pictures of planes and new terminal 3 entrance
  • New Routes
  • Start date for Air Bucharest to Bucharest
  • Are Turkish Airlines starting flights to Malaga?
  • Aena statistics for 2010
  • A spain location map with Malaga airport on

Alicante Airport

  • Pictures of planes & Inside the terminal
  • New Routes
  • Lots of more information on the history and the terminals
  • Aena statistics for 2010
  • A spain location map with Alicante airport on

Palma de Mallorca Airport

  • Pictures of planes & Inside the Modules
  • New Routes
  • Info on Modules
  • Aena statistics for 2010
  • A spain location map with Palma de Mallorca airport on

Thank you!

--MKY661 (talk) 21:11, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Turkish Airlines service to Malaga, they are planning to start flights in 2011. For new services, an exact full date must be provided. Since "2011" is not sufficient enough (and we are already in 2011), it cannot be added. TK will announce a firm date later on in the future and when they do, we can then put that in the article. Thanks! Snoozlepet (talk) 06:02, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cochin International Airport

Is it relevant to include info on financial status in an airport article? The following sentence In the finacial year 2009-10, the airport recorded a gross income of 211.63 crore (US$45.92 million), a growth of 22.3% over the previous year. The profit after tax was 77.51 crore (US$16.82 million), which was a growth of 30.7% over the previous year is present in the article. User:DileepKS69 insists that financial status of an airport is relevant. —Abhishek191288 (talk) 13:22, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well thanks. I would appreciate some more responses. Thanks, Abhishek191288 (talk) 04:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Bushranger. Unless an airport is in severe financial trouble, or is remarkably profitable, I don't consider the actual values notable. In any case, the values will vary from year to year, or quarter to quarter. This makes it harder to keep it updated on Wikipedia. The airport's financial statement can be linked in the "See Also" section if anyone is curious.Shiner1718 (talk) 14:26, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Airline & destination list.

Hello. Is there any way i could add a fourth column to an Airport-dest-list?

--MKY661 (talk) 00:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What would be in the fourth colum?Jamie2k9 (talk) 00:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. If you think it would improve the article, go for it - improvements are always welcome! Nobody owns the airport articles, including members of this WikiProject. :) Mlm42 (talk) 00:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I understand the question now. MKY wasn't asking permission; the problem is because the destination list tables are in fact formatted as a template, which makes it very difficult to change. The template is {{Airport-dest-list}}. At the moment, it would seem, changing this template would be very complicated, unfortunately. Mlm42 (talk) 02:35, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, the easiest way to make changes would be to not use the template at all. It appears that all the template does is ensure that all the destination lists are consistently formatted. The wikitable heading that the template uses is like this:
{|class="wikitable sortable" style="font-size: 95%" |- bgcolor=lightgrey
The template also controls the widths of the columns; but if you're adding a new column, then you'd want different values than the template anyway. See Help:Table for the basics of table-making. Mlm42 (talk) 02:55, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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