Talk:Napoleon

Move to Napoleon Bonaparte

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Close pending. (This will take a while.) moved. to Napoleon. There appear to be two competing principles out there, one that supports the use of Napoleon or Napoleon Bonaparte, and the other that supports the use of Napoleon I. In support of Napoleon or Napoleon Bonaparte is our WP:COMMONNAME policy which encourages us to use the name "which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". In support of Napoleon I is the WP:NCROY guideline that is designed to deal with the fact that Western monarchs "share much the same stock of names". I'm considering, in main, these two principles and ignoring arguments along the lines of accuracy or the necessity to identify him as an emperor because our naming policies are based more on recognizability, precision, conciseness, and consistency than it is on accuracy (see WP:AT). Clearly, there is no question that WP:NCROY is an important and useful guideline, without which we would have a hard time sorting out the many less known monarchs who use the same name within and across the boundaries of the various kingdoms and boundaries that define Europe. However, the purpose of the guideline is not to ensure historical accuracy, nor is it to neutralize any pov issues, or even to somehow attach a royal label to an individual (though I seriously doubt that anyone needs to be told that Napoleon was an Emperor), but rather it is to help sort out the multiple uses of the same name by various monarchs. And there are times when we come across a monarch who transcends his or her regnal name, is so easily recognizable that he or she has no need for disambiguation and orderly placement in a regnal sequences, and Napoleon, or Napoleon Bonaparte is clearly one of these. WP:NCROY asks us to consider using the most common form of the name used in reliable sources in English, and, as a guideline, urges us that it should be "best treated with common sense". The common sensical solution is clearly to use the common name of a person as well known as Napoleon.

Now to the second question. Should the title be at Napoleon or Napoleon Bonaparte, My initial reaction was to close this as 'move to Napoleon Bonaparte because the move request originates from a previous, 'no-consensus', request to move it to Napoleon. However, I notice that some of the opposition to Napoleon Bonaparte is actually based on a preference for Napoleon, and the latter title is acceptable to some of the opposers. Also, I can't help but notice that Napoleon already redirects to this article, which sort of defeats the purpose of most of the arguments for Napoleon I (Napoleon is better on the first 4 principles listed in WP:AT). Moving it to Napoleon Bonaparte makes little sense when Napoleon is available and fits well. Therefore, I'm closing this as 'move to Napoleon'. --rgpk (comment) 19:40, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Napoleon I → Napoleon Bonaparte — There seemed to be some support for this in the previous move discussion. Using his full name both removes any potential ambiguity, and seems a more common way of referring to the man than with his ordinal. (In most sources, he's either just "Napoleon" or "Napoleon Bonaparte"; adding the ordinal seems quite rare.) --Powers ^T 13:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support for reasons given in the preceding discussion - this is a more recognizable name.--Kotniski (talk) 13:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose as we've got Napoleon II & Napoleon III. PS- Didn't we already have this RM 'bout a month ago? GoodDay (talk) 14:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

  That was a proposed move to Napoleon.--Kotniski (talk) 14:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's why I think Napoleon Bonaparte is a non-starter. I'll just let WP:NCROY#Other_royals speak for me: 6. Do not apply an ordinal in an article title for a pretender, i.e., someone who has not reigned. For example, use Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, not Louis XX, for the legitimist pretender to the French throne. 7. Former or deposed monarchs should be referred to by their previous monarchical title with the exception of those who are still alive and are most commonly referred to by a non-monarchical title; all former or deposed monarchs should revert to their previous monarchical title upon death; for example, Constantine II of Greece not ex-King Constantine II or Constantine Glücksburg,. And that's exactly what Napoleon was, a deposed monarch and not a pretender. walk victor falk talk 05:38, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

^walk victor falk ^talk 14:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

But this is clearly not meant to prohibit the use of alternative names by which a monarch is better known - the guideline explicitly allows the use of such names, and it would be perverse to prohibit such use just because the monarch happened to be deposed before his death. (Anyway, we aren't compelled to follow the exact wording or even the intent of guidelines if they seem inappropriate to a given situation.)--Kotniski (talk) 14:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - there is no confusion whatsoever with Napoleon I. We have Napoleon II and Napoleon III, all of whom bore the surname Bonaparte.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - as done on previous proposals & for same reason given by Jeanne Boleyn. There are more "Bonaparte" than this one Napoléon I since it is the surname of the family. --Frania W. (talk) 15:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - From a NPOV point of view, there is little to choose between the alternatives. From a MOS point of view, he was a one-off: he styled himself as "Napoleon Emperateur" on his coins, but was referred to at the time as "Bony", "Bonaparte" or "that upstart Bonaparte" in England. I therefore suggest that the status quo be retained. Martinvl (talk) 15:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Known to history as Napoleon or Napoleon Bonaparte, but almost never as Napoleon I. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Almost never?! 400,000 google books and 20,000 google scholars disagree w/ you. (Results for "NB" 300,000 books, 27,000 scholars). ^walk victor falk ^talk 18:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support, though plain Napoleon would be better. "Napoleon I" is basically an unknown usage in English, regardless of the babble in the previous discussion. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• See reply to necrothesp. talk 19:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

^talk 18:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support. I just don't see any evidence that this figure is particularly well known as "Napoleon I". I agree with Gavia that Napoleon would be better (more concise than "Napoleon Bonaparte" and known as well by either). --Born2cycle (talk) 18:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• See reply to necrothesp. ^walk victor falk ^talk 19:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment When sources call him "Napoleon Bonaparte", they refer to the period before his crowning, as general or first consul. As emperor, he is referred as "Napoleon I" or simply "Napoleon". This is an accepted convention. ^walk victor falk ^talk 19:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support As said above, "Napoleon I" simply is not the name people most often use when referring to this individual. The Ghits provided by victor falk do not prove anything, there are actually more GScholar hits for "Napoleon Bonaparte". And of course much more for simply "Napoleon". The best solution would have been a move to Napoleon since that is used to refer to both his name before and after his crowning but Napoleon Bonaparte is still better than the current name because people still refer to him that way even after crowning (examples: [1] [2] [3] [4]). Regards SoWhy 19:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. However much I may share Beethoven's sentiment regarding his ascension to the throne, WP:COMMONNAME is superseded by WP:NCROY and "the law is the law", as it were. WP:NCROY: "Former or deposed monarchs should be referred to by their previous monarchical title." There are other monarchs better known by various names rather than their royal titles. Alexander I of Yugoslavia, e.g., is far better know as "Alexander Karageorgevich". "Napoleon" is particularly out of the question (indeed even more so than "Napoleon Bonaparte").
  This is indeed a non-starter. Regardless of the outcome of the vote, I hope the closing admin will not make the mistake of bowing to popular sentiment (WP:NOTDEMOCRACY). --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Actually no, you're very wrong here. COMMONNAME is policy, while NCROY is a guideline. NCROY even says "It is generally advisable to use the most common form of the name used in reliable sources in English." Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 20:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Wait just a minute here. WP:NCROY are naming conventions for this specific type of article. Naming conventions are by definition there to "supplement and explain" Wikipedia policy WP:TITLE. WP:COMMONNAME is not "policy" on its own, but in essence a general guideline of WP:TITLE, while WP:NCROY is also a guideline, but one that specifically interprets WP:TITLE for this type of article. Further, The fact that WP:NCROY applies here and in all similar cases, rather than simple commonname, is evidenced by the titles of virtually any and all royalty articles on Wikipedia. I am not "very wrong", in fact I'm not "wrong" at all. It just happens that WP:COMMONNAME is general enough to be listed on the main page of WP:TITLE, while the very specific application of WP:TITLE for these articles is (naturally) listed on a separate page (hence leading you to believe that one is "policy" while the other is a "guideline"). --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 23:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
      • No guideline can possible account for all possibilities. This is one of those cases where an exception ought to be made to account for how the man was and is known. Slavishly following the letter of NCROY without regard to a) its spirit, b) its applicability to a man who is known for much more than being a monarch and to a much wider audience than the average historical monarch, is not in the least in the spirit of Wikipedia. Powers ^T 02:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
        • Yes yes, but when we strip this debate of its pretty phrases ("Slavish Devotion", "The Spirit of Wikipedia") it still gets down to WP:COMMONNAME vs WP:NCROY. Both guidelines make sense and both can be advocated and their arguments listed in perpetuity with successively increasing eloquence on the part of the advocates. The question is: "which one do we follow?". The answer: "WP:NCROY, it was designed for monarchs".
          In other words, if that is your argument, then would you agree that WP:COMMONNAME should always supersede WP:NCROY? Because the same can be said for a number of other monarch articles who could be renamed to their common name but for WP:NCROY. I feel that if we have naming conventions in place, and if all of Wikipedia is written in accordance with them, then it is nonsense to demand they be disregarded because in this case it "feels right" to ignore policy. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 02:29, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
          • From WP:COGNOMEN (emphasis mine): "Some monarchs have a cognomen or other name by which they are clearly most commonly known (in English) and which identifies them unambiguously; in such cases this name is usually chosen as the article title." The " unambiguously" part must be interpreted in light of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which suggests that it is not absolute ambiguity that is important. Jean-Bédel Bokassa is another civilian ruler cum emperor, like Napoleon. Srnec (talk) 04:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

If there is one thing cannot be called it's "civilian". know very well this comparison is not historically accurate. The US and all European powers except Britain recognised him as emperor. Bokassa was recognised only by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. ^walk victor falk ^talk 20:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support - commonly known as "Napoleon Bonaparte" or "Napoleon" to most people in the world. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 20:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
  • • • • • Policy documentation is descriptive, not prescriptive. Everything on Wikipedia follows consensus; if we find a consensus that "Napoleon Bonaparte" is a more natural, more recognizable title than "Napoleon I", then the article should be moved, and to hell with what NCROY says. NCROY provides us with guidance only, not an inviolable law that must be followed. Powers ^T 13:05, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Some of the most prestigious encyclopedias out there, such as Larousse Britannica, Webster's etc. use "Napoleon I". Encyclopedias specialised in Napoleonic history: the Dictionnaire Napoléon written under the supervision of Jean Tulard of the French Institute, "Histoire et Dictionnaire du Consulat et de l'Empire" by Tulard, Palluel-Guillard and Ferrero or "Dictionnaire de la Grande Armee" by Alain Pigeard also go for "Napoleon I". Furthermore, counting book title 'hits' on google or other sites is irrelevant, because Wikipedia is not a book, but an encyclopedia.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support - not sure where these prestigious encyclopedias are coming from, but I can't recall the last time I've read a reference to "Napoleon I". "Napoleon", "Bonaparte" and "Napoleon Bonaparte" are widely used, but "Napoleon I" seem to be the least-commonly used term from my experience. And there would be a redirect from "Napoleon I", so links including that (i.e. lists and such) wouldn't be bothered. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support. The average Joe will recognise who "Napoleon Bonaparte" is, but I do not believe he will recognise "Napoleon I" without being told. In fact, I don't think he'll even know that Napoleon (old French military guy whose picture he would immediately recognise) was an emperor. The Britannica, I would note, also uses Louis of Portugal, but I got booed for proposing that move. Srnec (talk) 04:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

To The Bushranger: these encyclopedias are standard work. The fact that you tend to find other names than 'Napoleon I' is probably because you are referring to books, rather than encyclopedias. As I've said before, wikipedia is not a book, but an encyclopedia, so it should seek to inspire itself from the standards of encyclopedias when searching for encyclopedic entries.

To Srnec: since I can see that we're doing the "what's my opinion" forum here, rather than looking at what solid evidence we have from other encyclopedias, I must say that, having lived in an English-speaking country, I found that Napoleon I did ring a bell, so I would have to disagree with you on the "Average Joe" rationale.

I would just like to take a moment and invite the users to reflect on this entire process, which I see as pointless: Would anyone in the world fail to find the wikipedia article about Emperor Napoleon just because it is called "Napoleon I"? Furthermore, once on the article page, would anyone fail to recognise that the character called Napoleon I is actually the exact same person as the one they used to know as Napoleon Bonaparte?--Alexandru Demian (talk) 08:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

So we could also argue in favor of the move because noone would fail to recognize the emperor Napoleon I even when the article is not titled that way. Referring to other encyclopedias is a good idea sometimes but then again, they are per our definition tertiary sources. But the WP:NOR policy also says that "secondary" sources should be what articles rely on, e.g. those books you mentioned. I mentioned a couple of such books in my comment above. Regards SoWhy 09:22, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello SoWhy. I see what you mean, but what I am saying is that since encyclopedias go for Napoleon I (and for good reasons) and there is virtually no risk that the random reader might have the person confused with someone else while called Napoleon I, there is no point in moving it. Best,--Alexandru Demian (talk) 09:29, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I understand your argument but the point is that it can be reversed and be equally valid. Also, should we really strive to impersonate other encyclopedias? Or shouldn't we rather follow our own guidelines and policies, even when other encyclopedias do it differently? Regards SoWhy 13:33, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

How does Alexandru know the reasons behind Britannica's naming conventions, that they're good ones? Sounds like just his opinion. Srnec (talk) 18:05, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

SoWhy, I really agree with you in principle and I very much value the fact that Wikipedia has its own way, which is one of the reasons why I contribute here. However, I don't think that Wikipedia should make an objective out of being "different" than other encyclopedias, but rather spot their weaknesses and to try to do things differently. But I do fail to see how renaming this article would improve anything.

Srnec: of course, I don't actually know their reasons, but I can make an educated guess.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support Napoleon Bonaparte is the common name for this person (as in WP:Commonname). Napoleon I is rather uncommon. Napoleon Bonaparte is used in computer games (e.g: Total WAR - please watch the trailer carefully), TV documentaries (e.g.: [5]), etc. Flamarande (talk) 15:45, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Do we actually see video games as serious sources for writing history articles on Wikipedia?--Alexandru Demian (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Of course we don't use video games "as serious sources for writing history articles on Wikipedia". But video games help us to find the common name of the subject. I'm unable to remember any video game whatsoever using Napoleon I. Flamarande (talk) 22:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support In this case, the most sensible choice. Johnbod (talk) 17:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with those who prefer plain Napoleon, but Napoleon Bonaparte seems like a good compromise. It's more commonly used than Napoleon I, but the encyclopedists in the audience will recall from the previous move request that several reputable encyclopedias in fact use Napoleon Bonaparte as an article title. Dohn joe (talk) 21:43, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I remember that none of the reputable encyclopedias we talked about uses Napoleon Bonaparte. Frania said that Webster's encyclopedic entry is "Napoleon I" and after this they say something like "also known as Napoleon Bonaparte". But their first choice is Napoleon I. And the other encyclopedias we mentioned prefer Napoleon I, without Napoleon Bonaparte.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 21:51, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Here are the encyclopedias that I cited last time that use "Napoleon Bonaparte": [6] [7] [8]. More use "Napoleon I", but you cannot say that no reputable encyclopedias use "Napoleon Bonaparte". Dohn joe (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I remember that you cited them. I do think that they are much less reputable than the ones I was talking about, so that's why I didn't quote them. Best,--Alexandru Demian (talk) 11:49, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

So, the Encyclopaedia Judaica is not reputable? Hopefully other editors will be able to see that Napoleon Bonaparte is in fact used by some "real" encyclopedias. Dohn joe (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. I will put it this way: "Bonaparte" was a general in the French Revolutionary army who campaigned in Italy and Egypt, and a politician who headed the Consulate for four and a half years. "Napoleon" was a French emperor who ruled for a decade and lived in exile for six years, toppled monarchies, redrew the map of Europe, and led military campaigns of world-historical importance. When one refers to the general in 1796 or politician in 1799, one says "Bonaparte;" from his coronation and into posterity, one says "Napoleon." As a unified figure, it makes about as much sense to call him "Bonaparte" as to call George I of Great Britain Georg Ludwig. Moreover, as I believe I have demonstrated (having never heard a convincing argument to the contrary), the argument-from-common-name simply does not hold water, as every monarch could then benefit to lose part of his or her monarchical title. "Henry VIII" is about forty times as widely used as "Henry VIII of England," yet obviously no one has clamoured to rename that article—apparently a title obtained by divine right holds more credence with Wikipedia editors than one bestowed by the people (let alone the French people!) Albrecht (talk) 23:34, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

You may choose to believe that "you have demonstrated that the argument-from-common-name simply does not hold water". However you're mistaken: Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror, Queen Victoria, etc. Are these articles using the monarchical titles or are these articles using the common names? Should we always use monarchical titles or should we decide this matter case-by-case? Flamarande (talk) 18:04, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I have or would have voted in support of those, because they reflect the common name while still being historically accurate. Calling this article "NB" is a historically incorrect statement, just as "Napoleon I of France" would be historically incorrect ^walk victor falk ^talk 19:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The purpose of an article title is not to be historically accurate. The purpose of the title is simply to identify the subject of the article, while being at the most recognizable name possible. Dohn joe (talk) 19:54, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood my point, which is that WP:COMMONNAME is not, in itself, sufficient reason for a move—the same proposal could be levied against every monarch whose given name is not ambiguous (conceivably hundreds), which would entail the complete liquidation of WP:NCROY. The exceptions your list are actually covered in WP:NCROY for personalities overwhelmingly better known by some other epithet, to the point where it would be surprising to encounter the formal title (i.e. Victoria's formal title rather lamentably fails the Google test.) The occurrence of "Napoleon" versus "Napoleon Bonaparte" is patently not this disproportionate and to suggest the contrary by invoking these exceptions is disingenuous in the extreme. In fact, in this case there's really no conclusive way of demonstrating which name is more widely used; even a source which predominantly uses "Napoleon" will contain at least a passing reference to "Napoleon Bonaparte" to indicate the subject's early life or career. And as I (and, thankfully, several others) have pointed out, "Napoleon Bonaparte" refers specifically to the young Napoleon's early civil and military career (or else is used by English propagandists to delegitimize his rule, as we all know). Virtually every scholar of the Napoleonic era and early modern Europe observes this distinction; to name the article "Napoleon Bonaparte" is to imply that it deals primarily with the private individual and not the monarch, which is patently not the case. Albrecht (talk) 03:54, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

This is what I said in earlier comment [9], but better said. When historians talk "Napoleon Bonaparte", they talk about the man before his crowning (unless they're contemporaries one that want to emphasis its dynastical legitimacy or lack thereof ) 17:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. More or less what Albrecht says. An article called "Napoleon Bonaparte" should be about a man we refer to as "Bonaparte." An article about a man referred to for the most part as "Napoleon" should be at "Napoleon I". john k (talk) 02:45, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

  Actually, I would've thought that an article about a man referred to for the most part as "Napoleon" should be at "Napoleon" - but that wasn't the consensus view. But as you are aware, no doubt, a great many people (including authors and encyclopedias of repute) continue to refer to this fellow as "Napoleon Bonaparte".

  "Napoleon" would be acceptable, but I think adding an ordinal which eliminates all ambiguity is superior. Of course he is sometimes referred to as "Napoleon Bonaparte," but generally only for the 1769-1804 period. What are your reputable encyclopedias that use "Napoleon Bonaparte" for article titles? john k (talk) 22:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

  @Albrecht: I don't understand your argument. You oppose the loss of monarchical titles, citing the fact that we have "Henry VIII of England" rather than "Henry VIII". But this article is currently at "Napoleon I", not "Napoleon I, Emperor of the French". How can you approve of "Napoleon I", and disapprove of "Henry VIII"? Dohn joe (talk) 05:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

For the same reason as we have Louis XIV of France. Leaving out the "Emperor of the French" reflects better the sui generis properties of the napoleonic monarchy . It is also more in line with wp:at & wp:precise, "use names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary ". ^walk victor falk ^talk 22:24, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Few people nowadays know Napoleon III, and even fewer know Napoleon II or any other members of the House of Bonaparte. In addition, as Napoleon's career covers both the Republican and the Imperial periods, it is not improper to have the full name stand for him. He made his name as a republican general after all, and is best known as a military genius. He was arguably most commonly referred to both as "Napoleon" or "Napoleon Bonaparte" even in his lifetime, as well as today. Both Napoleon and Napoleon Bonaparte either way redirect to Napoleon I, so the fact that these terms are most commonly associated with him is not really in question. Along with others, I'd prefer plain "Napoleon", however "Napoleon Bonaparte" is equally valid. Constantine ✍ 18:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Do a poll of non-historians and almost no one will know Napoleon II or Napoleon III. Wikipedia is for the readers, who will be predominantly out of that non-historian/layman category that knows him by "Napoleon Bonaparte." Include the information about him as "Napoleon I" and links to the other Napoleons to educate them, but put the article where most people will look for it. Spidey104 20:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

That's what redirects are for: taking the reader from an inaccurate but more widely known to the correct title.

• So you want to exclude people with specific knowledge in the matter? Perhaps we should also prohibit mathematicians editing math pages, hm? Agh. One up for the spread of ignorance. ^walk victor falk ^talk 20:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
• Article titles, it should be noted, are meant to be recognizable to people who know something about the topic, not recognizable to the public at large. john k (talk) 22:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• But in this case the public at large does know the subject, even if barely, and they do not know him as an emperor of the French. Srnec (talk) 05:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• Then they will immediately learn he was an emperor, thus fulfilling one the core purposes of an encyclopedia, to be didactic ^walk victor falk ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• Victor, I never said to exclude historians from editing the page, because that would be stupid, like your comment was by misinterpreting my statement. I said that the general layman knows him as Napoleon Bonaparte and since Wikipedia is for the readers it would make more sense for the article title to represent the layman's term for the subject. John k brings up a good point, but I would disagree with that (unless there is a specific Wikipedia rule that no one has mentioned so far) because readers are more important than editors. Spidey104 23:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Phew, I was worried for a while. Thank you for clearing that up. Our first duty to readers is provide them with correct information. As editors we have to balance factors against each other. Data from previous moves show that "Napoleon I" is in wide use, both in general and by specialised scholars. "NB" is partially misleading, as it does [edit]doesn't make clear that he was a sovereign. That's the whole point of wp:ncroy, to make the name of monarchs recognisable as such. As I and others have commented, exceptions (Alexander the Great, Queen Victoria, Elizabeth II) are still clearly the name of monarchs. Napoleon I is more than sufficiently recognisable (go on, say "Napoleon the First!" in a loud and stentorian voice, and I dare you of not thinking of that guy with his hand in a grey coat) to be this article's name. ^walk victor falk ^talk 00:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

"NB" is partially misleading, as it does make clear that he was a sovereign. That doesn't make it misleading at all. Where's the logic?

I actually checked with two people who in matters of history I consider "average Joes". They both recognised the names "Napoleon" and "Napoleon Bonaparte" and knew that they referred to an old French military guy. Neither knew he was an emperor. (One even said, "I don't want to say he was an emperor. . . ") This method is hardly scientific, but it confirms me in my position: Napoleon is widely known by regular people who never read history books (I think they'd even recognise his image), but most people do not know that he was an emperor. For this reason, the current title fails. It does not tell them that this is the Napoleon. They will wonder, "Who was Napoleon II? Is this the Napoleon? Oh wait, there's his picture! Yep, same guy." Srnec (talk) 05:30, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Typo. "does" => "doesn't" . Thanks for noticing. To reiterate: ""NB" is partially misleading, as it doesn't make clear that he was a sovereign" . As you say, most everybody will immediately realise they arrived at the right page as soon as they see the picture, whatever they typed. Therefore it is important that the title be as accurate as possible, while still being recognisable. "Napoleon I" does just that. That they may begin to suspect that perhaps a second, and yes, even more tentatively a third Napoleon existed, is yet another way of slyly and deviously increasing our users historical knowledge. ^walk victor falk ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

How low is Wikipedia supposed to stoop in order to get readers to read its articles? And what is this saying about Wikipedia's rather arrogant view of its eventual readers that we think them to be so ignorant that they are unable to find their way through the napoleonic maze? Reading from "Napoléon I" through "Napoléon III" makes it obvious that there was no "Napoléon IV".

--Frania W. (talk) 06:23, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose as pointed by other users, "Bonaparte" applies only to a part of his career, so to use it as the name would imply that such part is the most important one MBelgrano (talk) 02:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• "Napoleon I" refers to a part of his career as well, doesn't it? So your argument is basically "the emperor part is more important than the part before, so let's refer to that in the name"? But how can you measure what readers will consider the "more important" part of his career? Regards SoWhy 13:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The title of an article on an individual who became a sovereign and the head of a new reigning house includes that person's title as a sovereign. That's why the title of this article is not and or should not be Napoleone di Buonaparte or General Bonaparte.

--Frania W. (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

SoWhy, I fear you've allowed yourself to become a little disingenuous: By any standard, Napoleon's imperial rule, institutions, conquests, diplomacy and legacy are vastly more important than their (brief) civil equivalents. I consider this to be d'une évidence pure and will not argue the point, which anyway has no bearing on our wider decision. But, as I'm sure you've deduced, the implications of the two names are not at all symmetrical: "Napoleon (I)" does not preclude an earlier career (history is rife with examples of monarchs who won the throne by the sword), while "NB" implicitly erases his monarchical reign; one expects a person who became a monarch to be called by his/her title (a title which, contrary to popular belief and possibly to your belief as well, was never renounced nor revoked). I notice the proponents of the move have quietly withdrawn from the policy terrain (where your claims are dubious at best) and are arguing from the new strategic high ground of the "common-sense exception (for the reader's sake!)," though here again you've run into a number of obstacles:

From WP:AT: an ideal title will confirm, to readers who are familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic, that the article is indeed about that topic. The argument other people have been making is not that "Napoleon I" is less common, but that it is less recognizable. As to most common name, "Napoleon I", "Napoleon" and "Napoleon Bonaparte" are all very common; at that point, I think the task of figuring what is "most common" should be secondary to seeing which title best fits our other criteria. I think "Napoleon I" fits best - it is just as recognizable as Napoleon, it is more consistent with other articles on monarchs, it is just as natural, it is more precise, and it is only very slightly less concise. john k (talk) 22:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I disagree "Napoleon I" is just as recognizable as "Napoleon". Unqualified Napoleon clearly refers to the Napoleon, just as "Oprah" clearly refers to the Oprah. "Napoleon I" is not so clear. For anyone who does not know, perhaps there was a Napoleon prior to "the" Napoleon who is known as "Napoleon I"? So, "Napoleon I" is not as clear a reference to the Napoleon is as is plain "Napoleon". That said, "Napoleon Bonaparte" is not as good as "Napoleon" in this respect, but probably better than "Napoleon I". --Born2cycle (talk) 00:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course you are right about the purely conceptual or hypothetical difference, but these are questions of magnitude and I suspect john k would answer that in practice the difference is so marginal as to be immaterial to our discussion (or at least that, on balance, the advantages of NPI in terms of accuracy and consistency amply outweigh this drawback.) To apply what I am tempted to call the Victor Test: "Go on, say 'Napoleon the First!' in a loud and stentorian voice, and I dare you not to think of that guy with his hand in a grey coat!" I find I cannot, in good faith, disagree. After all, if we stumble even further down your epistemological slippery slope, what certainty does our reader hold that even "Napoleon Bonaparte" is "the Napoleon?" (Apart from being familiar with the House of Bonaparte, of course.) When I search "George S. Patton," how do I know I've reached the right article without reading "United States army officer" or catching sight of that chest full of ribbons? Besides, we at Wikipedia would be pulling a particularly nasty trick if we redirected "Napoleon" (what 99% of readers are no doubt searching for anyway) to some frère ennemi who is not "the Napoleon!" Albrecht (talk) 01:18, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Once again, titles are to be recognizable to people familiar with the topic. People who do not know that this Napoleon was Napoleon I are not people familiar with the topic, and their potential confusion can be ignored - it will be cleared up by reading the article introduction, in any event. john k (talk) 16:57, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Once again, I disagree, John. I suspect most people are familiar with the topic of this article, and know him as "Napoleon" or "Napoleon Bonaparte". Further, I suggest most of those people (and here I'm excluding folks like Albrecht who use phrases like "epistemological slippery slope" in casual conversation) would not know that "Napoleon I" necessarily refers to that person. Sure, someone like you or Albrecht is unable to not think of "that guy with his hand in a grey coat" when you hear "Napoleon I", but I suggest neither of you is the typical person, nor even the typical person familiar with the topic of this article.

Here's a test you can try on colleagues, friends, and family members:

In the following list, circle all names that refer to the famous emperor of France:

1. Napoleon,
2. Napoleon I,
3. Napoleon II,
4. Napoleon III,
5. Napoleon Bonaparte.

Then watch, and ask, where they hesitate.

My point is most will know without little or no hesitation to circle (1) and (5) (thus indicating familiarity with the topic), but many will be unsure about which of (2), (3) or (4) to circle. But the least hesitation will be with (1). --Born2cycle (talk) 20:12, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per GBooks searches for "Napoleon I" and "Napoleon Bonaparte". Even when skipping through to the end of the results (less than 30 pages each), Napoleon I wins by enough of a margin to discount "Napoleon. I said..." returns. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

  Would you mind showing links to your searches? My English-language GBooks searches show 274,000 for "Napoleon Bonaparte", and 216,000 for "Napoleon I". Further, this ngram shows NB beating Nap the 1st for most of the last 200 years. Dohn joe (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

  That was fascinating -- never saw ngrams before. In any case, just take those two searches, and keep clicking the links at the bottom -- 10, 19, 29, etc. You'll run out of pages a lot sooner than you expect. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

  While looking at ngrams, check this one out. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose I think john k put it best, but I would also add that the argument that readers would be somehow challenged by using the current name because they don't immediately seems rather antithetical to the purpose of an encyclopedia, especially given that we've already established that a) whichever name is chosen, the other will still exist as a redirect and b) readers are not presented with articles, they search for them for the purpose of learning more about the topic. The argument presented above by Born2cycle and Srnec (essentially the same, through framed differently) seems especially weak in this light. siafu (talk) 20:53, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
  • This is a direct quote from WP:TITLE:

an ideal title will confirm, to readers who are familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic, that the article is indeed about that topic.

If you disagree with that part of the policy, fine, but my argument is, essentially, that both "Napoleon" and "Napoleon Bonaparte" would do a considerably better job of confirming, to readers who are familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic, "that the article is indeed about that topic.", than does "Napoleon I". Do you disagree with that? --Born2cycle (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I have no doubt whatsoever that readers arriving at this page with the title will have no confusion at all as to what the subject is; there will be a redirect (as mentioned above), there's a large portrait right up top, and the name Napoleon Bonaparte is not only how the very first sentence of the lead begins, but it's also in bold. Certainly, this is the most famous and recognizable individual named Napoleon (and the title still says "Napoleon", not "Henry Q. Dalrymple" or something unrecognizable as Napoleon), but quoting this policy when there are conflicting policies isn't getting us anywhere at all. In short, I think your concern is not only irrelevant, but also a bit silly-- you seem to be suggesting that it's somehow bad for readers to find out that Napoleon was in fact Emperor of France as Napoleon I, and that, gosh, there were multiple emperors with this name. This article already manages to confirm that this is the "right" Napoleon; if we were merely confirming what readers already know, this would be a rather poor excuse for an encyclopedia. siafu (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, FYI, I thought it would be obvious from the fact that I referenced other comments, but I did indeed take the time to read the discussion before commenting; restating a policy that's already stated in one of the arguments I referenced makes it look an awful lot like you're not giving other's comments much consideration here. siafu (talk) 21:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

First, please understand that I'm ignoring the argumentative and derogatory aspects of your comments.

I too have no doubt that readers arriving at this page will have no confusion at all as to what the subject is for the reasons you cite: the redirect, the portrait, and the opening sentence. But that's true regardless of what the title is, and is not what I asked you about. What's at issue here is which title best confirms what the subject is, and what I asked you was whether you disagree that "Napoleon" and "Napoleon Bonaparte" confirm the subject to the reader considerably better than "Napoleon I". What is implied there, but I thought obvious, was "independent of other factors" (like redirects, the portrait, and the opening sentence).

You indicate that you believe there are conflicting policies. Which ones conflict with WP:TITLE here, and how do they indicate a title other than Napoleon or Napoleon Bonaparte? (by the way, WP:NCROY is not policy, if that's what you're thinking about). --Born2cycle (talk) 22:18, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I find this latest invocation of WP:TITLE as some master document or commandment a little disconcerting. My suspicion (for which I may be corrected) is that, far from incidental, this new tactic suggests a strategic manoeuvre aiming to circumvent or evade the most applicable guideline, WP:NCROY, under which your claims are much weaker:

More importantly, editors need to follow the most relevant advice. A broadly worded policy page, intended to provide only the most general outline of the goals, is not necessarily a better source of advice than a guideline that directly and explicitly addresses the specific issue at hand.

But to return to your question: for readers who are familiar with the topic, all three names are more than adequate in confirming the subject: once we are satisfied that the current title meets this standard, other factors (some decisive, as I have argued) come into play. It is a gross distortion of the policy to suggest that all other considerations must bow and submit to this supreme criterion. In other words, I sense that we're being asked to sacrifice rather major benefits (historical accuracy, conformity with Napoleon's successors and monarch articles more generally) for a negligible added value. Albrecht (talk) 23:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I would rather strongly dispute that the alternate titles would confirm the subject to the reader considerably better than the current title. I also think that whatever slight advantage in confirming the subject to the reader might be held by the alternative titles is more than made up by corresponding disadvantages: "Napoleon" is imprecise; "Napoleon Bonaparte" either explicitly excludes the last 17 years of his life or else is a POV assertion that he was not a legitimate monarch. My position is similar to Albrecht's: all three titles are very common and perfectly recognizable to anyone who is familiar with the topic, and at that point we should look at other criteria like precision, consistency, and the like. john k (talk) 23:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

If you had said that "Napoleon Bonaparte" was ambiguous in the same way "Napoleon" is, you'd have a point. But to say that it "explicitly excludes the last 17 years of his life or else is a POV assertion that he was not a legitimate monarch" just doesn't follow. Was you proposal to move Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor to Frederick Barbarossa "a POV assertion that he was not a legitimate monarch"? And why doesn't "Napoleon I" explicitly exclude the first 35 years of life? I am rapidly losing interest in what this article is titled, or slowly, since I proposed a move back in 2007. Any of the three titles we've considered in the past few months is acceptable, but my personal preference, and I won't claim it is much more than that, is for "Napoleon Bonaparte". Srnec (talk) 23:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

• Because nobody that calls Frederick "Barbarossa" does it to deny he was an emperor. Further, "Barbarossa" is a cognomen and thus part of an acceptable regnal name. "NB" is not a regnal name. If you know anything at all about the Napoleonic times you know that the legitimacy of the imperial regime was a central part of the conflict. Anti-bonapartist propaganda was systematic in calling him names emphasised he was an usurper, and "NB" is one of them. ^walk victor falk ^talk 00:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is not required to name an article after the subject's regnal name. And are we really go to hash out two-century-old propaganda to decide on an article title? If "NB" is propaganda, then "N1" is surely just as much so. Srnec (talk) 02:55, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

• wp:ncroy is a whole guideline dedicated to regnal names. If you don't care about history, why do you care about the title of an historical article? "Napoleon I" is not propaganda because modern scholars agree he was emperor under that name. ^walk victor falk ^talk 03:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

"Napoleon Bonaparte", as an article title, says nothing about the legitmacy of his monarchical title. All it says is that English-speaking people today are likelier to recognize the subject of the article by that name. Was Catherine the Great great? Depends on your point of view. But that's where the article is titled, because that's how she's known today. With our French friend, there is evidence from this ngram that "Napoleon Bonaparte" is used more often in books than "Napoleon I" (although as B2C pointed out, "Napoleon" alone blows everyone else out of the water). And for the anti-French conspiracy theorists, this French ngram shows that "Napoléon Bonaparte" is more popular than "Napoléon I" even amongst francophiles. Dohn joe (talk) 23:44, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

First, if you don't want to get an argumentative response, a good strategy would be to read and take some time to comprehend the comment you are responding to, instead of simply vigorously moving to challenge all opposing viewpoints, which is very much how you came across here. Secondly, the invocation of WP:TITLE here is a bit of a canard; all three titles clearly pass the criterion you are citing, as there is no serious concern about readers not being confirmed in their finding of the correct page. There are, indeed, quite a few potentially valid article titles that would fail this criterion- Napoleone di Buonaparte, for example, since very few people at all know this name- but none of them are under consideration. As a result, I see no reason why we should be concerned about whether or not this title, or any of them, pass this particular policy point; it seems quite a bit likely this is just quoting of policy for policy's sake. Because we have already easily passed this policy by by what is really quite a wide margin, as john k pointed out (the very reason I referenced his comment in the first place), other concerns are much more pressing. These other concerns are best handled by the guideline that has been extensively quoted. siafu (talk) 01:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Albrecht, I had to use google to find the source of your quote above... an essay! When you quote something, please cite the source. Anyway, the lack of established consensus support for anything that essay (or any other one) says aside, while I agree that in cases where a policy page gives broad (and thus vague) advice, but the guideline gives more precise guidance that does not conflict with what the policy says, the guideline should be followed. But that is not the case here at all.

As to your suggestion that using WP:TITLE is a "novel tactic" and "a strategic manoeuvre aiming to circumvent or evade", please see my user page, my FAQ, and countless RM discussions. Invoking WP:TITLE for guidance on how to name articles is common practice, and has been for years. In general, I think it's safe to say that following specific guidelines when the indicated name conflicts with WP:TITLE is becoming less and less common, and within the last few months this practice has begun to apply finally to articles about royalty, though apparently there are still some holdouts. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support He was never recognised as an emperor by the British which is why they refused to sign the treaty of Treaty of Fontainebleau in 1814, consequently to this day many British sources continue to refer to him as Napoleon Bonaparte. When he came back from exile almost no other state but France recognised him as Emperor of the French, most of them subscribed to the idea that he was an outlaw. Perhaps if Napoleon Bonaparte is not acceptable, we could go for the article title Napoleon (outlaw) as a disambiguation ;-) "Boney was a Warrior" -- PBS (talk) 03:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I suggest Napoleon (usurper) as more precise per WP:PRECISE. Or perhaps The Corsican Ogre. That was definitely his WP:COMMONNAME among British kindergarten children of the times. ^walk victor falk ^talk 04:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

No. I don't know what you're reading in WP:PRECISE, but Napoleon (usurper) would be the epitome of "more precise than necessary" per that.

And it should go without saying that the most common name used by British kindergarteners at the time is irrelevant here.

You're grasping, man. You might have the numbers among those who happen to be participating here, but you sure don't have the arguments. I hope the closer takes that into account. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:10, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay - before anyone else gets in a huff. B2C - that was a joke/sarcasm by Victor. And at the moment, the support !votes actually outnumber the opposes 15 to 11. Dohn joe (talk) 22:37, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

He may be considered to be an "outlaw" in la perfide Albion, but his civil code[10] has been adopted & adapted in several countries. Not bad for an outlaw !

!--Frania W. (talk) 04:00, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think someone brought up this argument in the past. Actually, Great Britain was an exception in not recognising Napoleon as Emperor. But what I find funny about the entire comment is that Napoleon actually had more legitimacy not only than any of the British sovereigns, past and present, but also more legitimacy than most of Prime Ministers throughout British history, up to the reforms at the beginning of the XXth century. --Alexandru Demian (talk) 21:23, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose. It's really good to see so much relatively high quality debate. I probably should have supported the move to "Napoleon". This is the English Wikipedia and 99% of English-speaking people have never heard the term "Napoleon I". This makes the Wikipedia article both informative at title level, but then counter to standard usage and recognisability for almost every English speaking person. I know the reason some people oppose a move away from the monarchical "Napoleon I" is that they're good-hearted fans of Napoleon and point out that the English establishment regarded him as usurper and pushed that propaganda. I think this concern is mostly overidden by COMMONNAME but given the existence of Napoleon III, "Napoleon Bonaparte" seems incongruous despite the fact it is recognisable whereas "Napoleon I" has never been heard of by 99% of English speaking people. Even though Napoleon was a legitimate emperor I don't think the article should be titled "Napoleon I" because recognisability could be more important than technical legitimacy. I would support a move to "Napoleon" as this is simple, which is always good, recognisable, which is a key criteria, but does maintain some monarchical legitimacy. Tom B (talk) 01:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
  • What is the basis for the contention that "Napoleon I has never been heard of by 99% of English speaking people"? I have to say I absolutely don't understand the argument that "Napoleon I" is potentially confusing. It is a name used as the title of many of his biographies. It's what many other encyclopedias use. Beyond that, again, we need a name that is familiar to people familiar with the topic, not all English-speakers. john k (talk) 16:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
    • We need a name for people unfamiliar with the topic because this is an encyclopedia. People have used the argument that Napoleon is more recognisable than Napoleon I because it is, surely this is understandable? That is the basis for the contention. Tom B (talk) 21:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
      • But the guideline is to use names familiar to people familiar with the topic, not names familiar to people ignorant of the topic. At any rate, my basic point throughout has been that there are a number of concerns at play in article naming, and that recognizability is only one of them. "Napoleon I" may be very slightly less recognizable than the other names suggested, but it is still perfectly recognizable - it's not like calling the article on George Orwell Eric Blair, or something. That being said, "Napoleon I" offers numerous advantages not held by other potential titles - it is consistent with the titles of the later French rulers, it doesn't only properly refer to the earlier part of his life, it is utterly unambiguous. john k (talk) 21:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
• Support - it's marginally more helpful than the present title. Deb (talk) 12:57, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NCROY, and other reasons already mentioned. I would support a move to simply "Napoleon" though. This is what, the fifth time we've had this debate? —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - If we didn't have Napoleon II & Napoleon III it might fly, but we do have II & III. As for the "Average Joe" argument, maybe "Joe" will learn something new by leaving the title as Napoleon I. Dr. Dan (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

  What does having Napoleons II and III have anything to do with how we name this article? We have Catherine I of Russia, but Catherine the Great instead of Catherine II of Russia. This is a similar situation - in a line of monarchs, there is one that is better known other than by his regnal title. Here, "Napoleon" would be best, but "Napoleon Bonaparte" is better than "Napoleon I". Dohn joe (talk) 21:17, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• It seem some editors are not so much for "Napoleon Bonaparte" than against "Napoleon I" at whatever cost, for reasons I cannot entirely fathom. ^walk victor falk ^talk 21:33, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

  I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but for me, I've tried to make clear the reason that "Napoleon I" is not the best title: simply put, this person is more widely known as "Napoleon" or "Napoleon Bonaparte". There may not be a tremendous amount of confusion with "Napoleon I", but there is some. And any increase in the recognizability of an article title is an improvement for Wikipedia and its readers. Dohn joe (talk) 21:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• I'll reply to your question to Dr. Dan first. If this article were named "Napoleon Bonaparte", then the article about the man who reigned would not have a regnal number, while that of the one who did not reign, Napoleon II would have one. This unnecessary confusion is easily avoided by naming it something other than "Napoleon Bonaparte", Napoleon I for instance. This is a much greater source of potential confusion than between "Napoleon" and "Napoleon I", which I believe is vanishingly marginal, and that you yourself admit is "not tremendous". And even if it was a more than marginal, it would not be acceptable if it came at the price of historical accuracy ^walk victor falk ^talk 22:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• There is nothing inaccurate about Napoleon Bonaparte, or more accurate about Napoleon I. They're both just names, and accurate ones. Srnec (talk) 04:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• This has argued at length and in many different discussions. Napoleon I (or any form of regnal name) conveys the information that he reigned (as emperor), which "Napoleon Bonaparte" does not, so it is more accurate. They're not "just names", and a name change is far from being as innocuous as some appear to naively believe. The use of the latter is reserved as a historiographical convention for his life before he became emperor. To use it as the title for an article about his entire life could be construed as an attempt to de-emphasis his emperorship and a form of historical revisionism. ^walk victor falk ^talk 16:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Ah, this is where the problem is. An article title is not supposed to convey anything other than how the topic is most commonly, normally, and naturally referenced. Conveying that the subject of the article is a person, much less one of royalty, is not something a title is supposed to do. By your argument President Abraham Lincoln is "more accurate" than Abraham Lincoln because the former conveys he was a president while the latter does not, so should be preferred. But "more accurate" in this context is not about whether it conveys some characteristic of the topic (like whether he was an emperor or a president), but whether it accurately reflects how that topic is commonly, normally, and naturally referenced.

    Trying to convey anything beyond how the topic is commonly named or referenced, including something about what the topic is, is opening up a can of worms that should remain tightly shut for every single article title in WP, expect when necessary and appropriate for disambiguation from other uses of the same name (and when there is no primary topic, which is not the case here) --Born2cycle (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

    • But he is not commonly, normally, or naturally referenced as "Napoleon Bonaparte" when discussing his career after 1804. john k (talk) 16:20, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• I think some supporting the move (like me) agree that it's not the perfect solution but still think that "Napoleon Bonaparte" is better than "Napoleon I". The best solution would have been "Napoleon", but since consensus was against it, the second-best option is still better than the current one. I'm not objective of course but if consensus is that "Napoleon" would be preferable after all, the closing admin can always close the discussion that way. After all, people on both sides of the debate expressed that "Napoleon" would have been a better title. Regards SoWhy 22:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• I disagree. The British, for a generation, perpetrated myths about the "Corsican Ogre". Vilifying him, and creating a POV that still exists in many modern sources. "Napoleon Bonaparte" was part of that anti-Napoleon campaign, it was part of an attempt to deny the legitimacy of his reign. While most English speaking people do indeed know him by that name, it is because of centuries propaganda. To continue to reference him by the name just perpetuates that propaganda. This is part of the very reason that NCRY was created. Royalty should be called by their regal name and cardinal. The only alternative to this title that fit the policy is "Napoleon I". To go outside of the policy "Napoleon" is the only neutral option. Napoleon I is the only non-policy\guideline violating option. As all three titles redirect to this article anyways, it really makes no difference in any event. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment So its pretty clear there is no consensus for a move, the same as the last five debates on this topic. :) Shall we close this thread? —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Wondering what unearthed arguments will be brought up next time...

--Frania W. (talk) 14:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Without wanting to slight you, I think the decision whether it's "pretty clear there is no consensus" should not be made by someone who actively opposed the proposal. ;-) Regards SoWhy 15:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

No offense taken. :) I agree a neutral party should close the thread. I was merely hoping to hasten that event, the debate is over a week old now. We can keep going, but I doubt consensus will be found. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose For the record. I'm tempted to add "Strongly", but that should be made clear by my arguments. ^walk victor falk ^talk 18:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

  Sorry I didn't count you, Victor - you're now in the tally below (and I moved your comment up here, to keep the tally section clean). I'd assumed you'd already !voted long ago.... Dohn joe (talk) 18:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Scorecard

For those interested in numbers, here's how the !vote stands (please update this list as necessary):

• Support - 16 !votes, of which 5 indicated a preference for plain "Napoleon".
• Oppose - 15 !votes, of which 2 indicated a preference for plain "Napoleon".

Of course, this tally does not take into account the relative merits of any of the arguments - that's for the lucky closing admin to evaluate. Dohn joe (talk) 17:44, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Further Discussion

Regardless of how this goes, it should be abundantly clear to everyone that the current title does not enjoy consensus support.

I suggest that regardless of whether the article is moved to the proposed Napoleon Bonaparte or stays at Napoleon I, there will be no consensus support, but I would bet that if the closing admin had the cajones to boldly change the name to Napoleon, within a few months that title would clearly have consensus support, effectively for all time.

This is because there are legitimate and strong arguments to be made about moving from Napoleon I orNapoleon Bonaparte to Napoleon (see above), but the arguments to move Napoleon to either of those two names are very weak at best. This is also why those who support Napoleon I are so desperate to keep it here - they know at least instinctively that if it is ever moved to Napoleon, there will be little if any hope of it ever moving back.

Unfortunately, most closing admins these days seem to prefer the easy route and simply close discussions like this as "no consensus", and so we are never lifted from the quagmire. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be really getting ahead of yourself there. I for one, strongly support that the article be maintained as Napoleon I, but I am not at all "desperate to keep it here". Furthermore, your claim that "arguments to move Napoleon to either of those two names are weak at best" is presumptuous and fails to account for the fact that the current title is:

• in accordance with naming conventions of some of the most reputable and scientifically-accurate encyclopedias out there (both generalist and specialised ones);
• the correct title of a monarch, whose accession to power was legitimized through plebiscite, a practice that was highly democratic for the beginning of the XIXth century;
• clear and several editors noted that they fail to see how someone who does not know that "Napoleon I" is the "Napoleon" would actually fail to find the article if it remains named Napoleon I. This is not the same as Catherine II of Russia/Catherine the Great, where confusion or difficulties in finding the actual person are possible. Furthermore, those who say that wikipedia should stand up to its status as an encyclopedia believe that wikipedia might educate the people who actually don't know that "Napoleon I" is the "Napoleon".
• in clear accordance with wikipedia policies for royalty and sovereigns.

These are just examples of arguments opposing the move. The admin who will close the discussion will note, however, that other arguments against the move have been formulated.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 09:07, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Just a note, to avoid confusion: WP:NCROY that is cited to oppose any move requests is actually only a "naming convention", not "policy". It contains a large box at the top that says it should be "treated with common sense" and that "occasional exceptions may apply", so it's not in itself an argument against the move since those in support have expressed sufficient reasons why common sense warrants an exception to the rule. If you want to argue against them, you cannot re-cite the same rule, you need to demonstrate that no exception is warranted. Saying that "others do it the same way" is equally a non-argument (an argumentum ad populum to be precise]] as is pointing out that it's the title of a monarch (but unlike most other monarchs, Napoleon's life before accession was of great historic interest as well). Also, arguing that people "will find it" is a straw man: Changing the article's title will not change it's content and readers will still find out that "Napoleon I" is the "Napoleon". The change to the title would neither make it more difficult to find this article nor to find out facts about this subject. Regards SoWhy 09:29, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• Having an interesting life before coronation is not argument enough for an exception; by that logic Charles XIV John of Sweden should be moved to Jean Bernadotte. At least the French marshal is arguably more famous than the Swedish king, but you can't say the emperor was less known than the general.
• Regarding using "Napoleon" alone, I'd like to repeat what I said to some that wanted to omit "the Great" in Talk:Cnut_the_Great#Requested_move:

See my ngrams in the RM !vote above. Whether Cnut or Canute is chosen, "the Great" should be included in the title. Only people with one name and one name only should have a one-word article title: Anaxagoras, Anaximander, Anaxarchus, Anaximenes, Anaxilas, etc. Also, Indonesian_names#Example_1:_Single_word_name, like Sukarno and Suharto. Cnut had a patronym, Sweynsson as son of Sweyn Forkbeard, in addition to his "Great" nickname/epithet/cognomen. Notice how common they were: Forkbeard, Bluetooh, Fairhair, Bloodaxe, the Old, the Brash, the Victorious, and so on, so that all kings are identified by either an epithet or patronym and a a first name. WP:NCROY follow this logic: no monarch is identified by first name alone; there is no just Victoria but Queen Victoria and no plain Elizabeth but Elizabeth I. walk victor falk talk 23:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding WP:NCROY. It is not something that somebody made up the last to next week end after a beer. It's been around since 2002. It has 22 archives. I think it does a great job of navigating between all the reefs of nationalism, rank, illegitimacy and many others that infest that subject and meeting these challenges with clarity and accuracy. This is quite a good example of a broadly worded policy page, intended to provide only the most general outline of the goals, is not necessarily a better source of advice than a guideline that directly and explicitly addresses the specific issue at hand. Remember that all "rules" on wikipedia are basically subject to the same process of discussion and consensus, and that each one should be judged on on its on merits, whether officially an "essay", "policy" or whatever. In fact, one could say that ncroy was "too successfull", so some came to believe "it has to be X of Y", with Alexander the Great and Charlemagne allowed as exceptions, barely. So for a time we had the rather odd-sounding Victoria of the United Kingdom. "Napoleon I, Emperor of the French" were it had stayed happily for years, was moved (unilaterally, with I guess a number of others) to "Napoleon I of France"[11] . This factual inaccuracy was rectified for all three Napoleons less than a year ago. So, Napoleon I, far from being a "slavish and devout following" of ncroy, is already an exception. An exception, furthermore, explicitly stated in the convention. ^walk victor falk ^talk 15:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me where NCROY demands we use regnal numbers for everyone who reigned as a monarch? It seems like some people are insisting that "Napoleon I" is the only possible title for this article because Napoleon was an emperor. Where does this notion come from? Powers ^T 15:07, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• Numbers are not obligatory, otherwise Queen Elizabeth and William the Conqueror would not be possible, but it has to be clear that is a regnal name, which is a title and not a name proper. An alternative without regnal number would be Emperor Napoleon. ^walk victor falk ^talk 16:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Alexandru, you've listed several points against moving Napoleon I to Napoleon. That does not refute my point about there being no strong arguments for moving this article from Napoleon (assuming it is moved there first, of course) to Napoleon I.

Victor, let's not conflate article titles with titles of people. There is no requirement for an article title about a person with a title to reflect that title. In fact, except when that person also happens to be best known when referred with that title, using the title (be it a regnal name or not) is arguably contrary to the most fundamental principles of Wikipedia article titling, as spelled out at WP:AT.

Since in this case the subject is clearly better known as Napoleon than as Napoleon I (not to mention that the former is more concise and natural), and is the primary topic for Napoleon, the article should be at Napoleon. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:34, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Napoleon is best known as the emperor with that name, therefore the article should reflect that, balancing accuracy, precision, recognisability, consistency, and conciseness per wp:at (first section,"deciding on an article title"; you can click on either one of the two links you conveniently provided). Napoleon I does a much better job of that than "Napoleon Bonaparte". ^walk victor falk ^talk 21:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Victor - how do you feel about "Napoleon"? It's the most recognizable and concise title. It's accurate (unlike the other two options, "Napoleon" accurately refers to the man's entire life). It's precise (as shown by the fact that Napoleon redirects to this article). The only thing it lacks is consistency with Napoleon II and Napoleon III. But as we know, there are other examples of dropping the ordinal (Frederick the Great, William the Conqueror, et al.). What do you think? Dohn joe (talk) 21:20, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

See my reasoning about Cnut in the quote box above. ^walk victor falk ^talk 21:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. But would you agree that "Napoleon" at least satisfies the qualities mentioned - accuracy, precision, conciseness, and recognizbaility? And what do you say to articles like Michelangelo (whose full name was Michelangelo Buonarroti)? Dohn joe (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

You mentioned Michelangelo in the earlier discussion [12]. I agree with the replies. They're not comparable: Michelangelo (and Donatello!) are exceptions that confirm the rule; whether only experts and people with special interests know their last names, or even that they had a last name, people even with very limited knowledge about "Napoleon" know it was a first name (Hence all the jokes of the type "I hereby proclaim myself Emperor Dohn the First and rule that emperors shall be known by their first name and their first name only and nothing but their first names." Or Emperor Norton :). ^walk victor falk ^talk 00:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I still don't see where it's written anywhere that people who were monarchs must have article titles that clearly indicate that they were monarchs. Powers ^T 03:43, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

That's the pretty much the gist of the whole of ncroy. Did you know that many micronations celebrate January 8 as "Emperor Norton" Day? ^walk victor falk ^talk 04:12, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

NCROY doesn't trump WP:COMMONNAME, and nothing in there says it does. And what does Emperor Norton have to do with anything? Powers ^T 15:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Napoleon may also be included in the list of Italians ?

• Napoleon was of Italian parentage. [As: Giuseppe Buonaparte (Grandfather) or Carlo Maria Buonaparte (father)]
• The Italian language was his mother tongue.
• Modern military art and science are of Italian origin, and Napoleon Bonaparte, the great captain, was born an Italian, and of an Italian stock, and, though Emperor of the French, was never a Frenchman. This was Napoleon Bonaparte, a man from the island of Corsica, of Italian parentage, but a French citizen, for the island had been forcibly the annexed to France shortly before his birth. He always spoke French with a marked Italian accent.

Sources :

• Professor Nico Perrone of the University of Bari. Template:It He has collaborated with Leonardo Sciascia.
• Professor Giuseppe Parlato of the S. Pio V University of Rome. Template:It
• Professor Aldo Alessandro Mola of the University of Milan. Template:It Gold Medal for Culture and Art of the Italian Republic.
• Aldo Giovanni Ricci, superintendent of the Central Archives of the State and professor of history at S. Pio V University of Rome.
• Alessandra Gigante (Historian), Fabio Andriola (Journalist and Historian), Emanuele Mastrangelo (Journalist and Historian), Luciano Garibaldi (Journalist and Historian), Vittorio G. Cardinali (Journalist and Historian), Fabio Andriola (Journalist and Historian).

10 Ten historians.

• Life of Napoleon Buonaparte. Sir Walter Scott.

Napoleon was himself an Italian, and showed his sense of his origin by the particular care which he always took of that nation, where whatever benefits his administrations conferred on the people, reached them both more profusely and reached them bmore directly than in any other part of his empire. [...]

Horne, Richard H. The history of Napoleon Bonaparte. G. Routledge and Sons, 1878. Page 1.
"He also inquired how the Christian name of his son, Napoleone, could be translated into French. At that time Napoleon's father was the representative of Corsica at the Court of France. He sent a reply from Versailles, saying the Republic of Genoa had, two hundred years previously, given to one of his ancestors, Jerome, the title of Egregiitm Hieronium de Buonaparte, and that the article de had been omitted because it was of very little use in Italy; that Napoleone was Italian; and that his family name was "Buonaparte," or "Bonaparte." The Bonapartes are of Tuscan origin. In the middle ages they were eminent as senators of the Republics of Florence, San Miniato, Bologna, Sarzana, and Treviso; and as prelates attached to the Court of Rome. They were allied to the Medici, the Orsini, and Lomellini families." Web. 03 Mar. 2011.

• Also Sir Winston Churchill wrote that Napoleon was: " himself more Italian than French. " History of the English speaking peoples. Sir Winston Churchill.

Is correct put Napoleon on both lists. --Davide41 (talk) 17:01, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

He was not born an Italian; however, maybe he should be included in category of "French people of Italian descent": his nephew Napoléon III is included in that category. By the same token, Napoléon II should be in that category also.

--Frania W. (talk) 18:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Not the same thing. A Frenchman. Then? Other opinions? --Davide41 (talk) 18:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

He was ethnically Italian, but French in nationality. Corsica, the place of this birth, was part of France and is still part of France today, and the inhabitants are French, not Italian. So I agree with the previous comment, he is both French and Italian. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 18:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• There are at least six credible sources (in English) who say that Napoleon was Italian.

As: Napoleon an Italian. The first point which Taine brings out is that this mighty despot, who ruled France as she had never been ruled before, was not even a Frenchman. Thomas Power O'Connor, Napoleon, 1896. But... --Davide41 (talk) 18:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Davide41, I honestly doubt that these sources that you are quoting are mainstream. I remember reading at least a dozen biographies of Napoleon throughout the years, of which perhaps the most reputable are the ones by Tulard, Lefebvre, Castelot, Andrew Roberts, Tarle and Max Gallo. I don't remember to have read anywhere in these books that he was an Italian. I agree with Frania's comment, in that we could state that he was French of Italian descent, but no more. You have to remember that a 10-year old Napoleon left Corsica for France and only returned years later and each time for brief periods. His military training was very much French and his military genius cannot be ascribed to anyone other than himself, although he did consider himself to be a student of Caesar and Frederick the Great; so his ties with Italian military science is loose at best. As a chief of state and reformer, Napoleon was self-trained and highly cultivated, but, again, Italian influence here was relatively minor: he read extensively, mostly French illuminists and some German philosophers. During his first Italian campaign, he did enjoy a fine Comedia dell'Arte from time to time, but, again, no more. Throughout his life, he adopted French habits and repeatedly stated his love for his country and pride of being French. Not the same thing can be said of his Italian origins and he was at times disdainful towards Italian and Neapolitan military prowess, stating that the Kingdom of Italy never provided the number of regiments that he expected and the Neapolitans fought badly. Not really the kind of words you use when talking about a nation with which you identify and to which you believe that you belong above any other. So, IMHO, Napoleon was French, of Italian descent, but no more.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 21:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Good sources. All teachers. Napoleon was much more an Italian than a Frenchman. His father and mother were Italians, his ancestors were Italian, and Italian was his mother-tongue. His family and Christian names were Italian. He always spoke French with the strongest Italian accent. I repeat my previous comment: " He was born Italian but later on became a French Emperor. Napoleon Bonaparte is technically "Italian."(1) " --Davide41 (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

(1) The Italian language, i.e. Tuscan or Roman, was a sort of lingua franca among the Genoese, Tuscans, Corsicans, Venetians, Neapolitans, Umbrians, Romans, and Sicilians who met outside of their common homeland, which already had a well-defined traditional and literary identity, but no political unity. --Davide41 (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It's my personal point of view. Correct. Absolutely. But I accept. --Davide41 (talk) 22:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Davide41,

Napoléon I and Alexandre Dumas:

Napoléon Bonaparte was born in Corsica, which had become French one year before his birth, he was thus a French citizen - and only French - at birth, although no one is arguing that he was not 100 percent of Italian blood. No one disputes his ancestry anymore than anyone would dispute the fact that French writer Alexandre Dumas had African blood running through his veins. Yet, Alexandre Dumas is known as a French writer, not African, and is in Wikipedia category of "French people of African descent", as Napoléon I, II & III should be in the category of "French people of Italian descent".

Another example would be with French people from Savoie, which was annexed to France in 1860. Would you say that the couturier Pierre Balmain (1914-1982), the writer Henry Bordeaux (1870-1963) or the architect Maurice Novarina (1907-2002), all of them pure Savoyard-blooded, were not French because born in Savoie?

--Frania W. (talk) 00:48, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the problem is we are conflating ethnicity with nationality. Savoy has always been more or less ethnically French, so obviously people born in Savoy after 1860 are simply described as "French." Napoleon, on the other hand, was certainly born a subject of Louis XV, and thus "French," but was also ethnically Italian, and of course Corsica itself had only just become French at the time of his birth - his older brother Joseph could arguably be called Genoese. I do think that "French people of Italian descent" makes the most sense here. On the other hand...Napoleon was, in addition to being Emperor of the French, King of Italy. Does that make him ex officio Italian? john k (talk) 16:30, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Quoting John k: Napoleon was, in addition to being Emperor of the French, King of Italy. Does that make him ex officio Italian?

Maybe, but he was not born "King of Italy" and, at time of birth, was a French citizen (of Italian descent, which would not show on his birth certificate).

--Frania W. (talk) 18:30, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Napoleon was also Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine and Mediator of the Swiss Confederation (Napoleonic). Also, he annexed the Kingdom of Holland and Catalonia into the French Empire. If we say that he was Italian ex officio because he was King of Italy, then we would have to say that he was also German, Swiss, Dutch-Belgian and Spanish.--Alexandru Demian (talk) 21:20, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

A protector and a mediator are rather different from a king. john k (talk) 23:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

The French critic and historian Hippolyte Adolphe Taine, even he does not deny that Napoleon was "Italian," his exact words being: "Napoleon, far more Italian than French, Italian by race, istinct and imagination" and that "Considers in his plan the future of Italy." [ Two books ok Napoleon; Taine's New and Last Volume. The modern regime. By Hippolyte Adolphe Taine. Translated by John Durand. Vol. II. mo. ] --Davide41 (talk) 18:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

But... Many sources...

• At least 20 Historians
• Credible sources

There are enough sources "out there..." to at least make an arguable case for inclusion here. Because he is on the French list does not automatically exclude him here, Wikipedia has to deal with contradictory sources all the time, and often, the best thing for an encyclopedia to say is that the sources do not agree. --Davide41 (talk) 19:51, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

• I have added him to the Category:People_from_Corse-du-Sud. ^walk victor falk ^talk 21:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Moi, Italiano? The tediousness of arguing

Mine and Davide41's edit warring at List of Italians has now reached tedious level.

Just checking: as I understand it the consensus is that N was French, but of Italian origin. This means he cannot be included in the list of Italians, but he can be on a list of people of Italian origin, or of French people of Italian origin. If, as Davide41 seems to suggest (and I'm not trying to put words into his mouth, I just have difficulty understanding his writings), sources do not agree on N's nationality, this needs to be addressed or discussed in the main body of the article (cannot cite the exact policy), or else dismissed as misinterpretation, original research, POV editing, or fringe theory.

If a different consensus is not reached, and as I understand from WP's policies, Davide41 could then be warned (and eventually barred from editing for not complying) if he/she continues with this trend. Thoughts? Egg carton (talk) 17:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

• Napoleon was much more an Italian than a Frenchman. His father and mother were Italians, his ancestors were Italian (is essential to remember, had not a drop of French blood in his veins) and Italian was his mother-tongue. His family and Christian names were Italian. Always fluent in his native Italian, Napoleon learned French as a second language, speaking it with a heavy accent and unable to write it grammatically. The spelling of the name was changed from the Corsican-Italian form Buonaparte only in 1796. His manners, gestures, and mode of speech were Italian; he was Italian in his fierce explosions of rage; Italian in his declamatory eloquence [...]
• These are historically certain facts.

original research, POV editing, or fringe theory.

• At least 20 Historians
• Credible sources

The historical journal « Storia In Rete » (whose documentaries are used by broadcasters: RAI and La7) included him in list of the most influential figures in Italian history. Scientific Committee:

• Professor Nico Perrone of the University of Bari. Template:It He has collaborated with Leonardo Sciascia.
• Professor Giuseppe Parlato of the S. Pio V University of Rome. Template:It
• Professor Aldo Alessandro Mola of the University of Milan. Template:It Gold Medal for Culture and Art of the Italian Republic.
• Aldo Giovanni Ricci, superintendent of the Central Archives of the State and professor of history at S. Pio V University of Rome.
• Alessandra Gigante (Historian), Fabio Andriola (Journalist and Historian), Emanuele Mastrangelo (Journalist and Historian), Luciano Garibaldi (Journalist and Historian), Vittorio G. Cardinali (Journalist and Historian), Fabio Andriola (Journalist and Historian).

Other Historians : Hippolyte Taine, Walter Scott, John Holland Rose, Etc. Outside of specialized studies, many authoritative figures in science and in letters have had the occasion to express their convictions regarding an Italian Napoleon (or rather, more an Italian than a Frenchman): Thomas E. Watson, Sir Winston Churchill, Richard H. Horne, Etc.

"Sources do not agree." Is correct put Napoleon on both lists.

Go read dear child --Davide41 (talk) 17:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

See what I mean when I was talking about tendentious editing? The same over and over again. Plus name calling. Egg carton (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

There are many reliable sources. Is needless to argue with you. You are biased. End.--Davide41 (talk) 18:30, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Nobody disputes that Napoleon was ethnically Italian or that Italian was his native language. He was, however, born and lived his entire life up to 1814 in France, with the exception of his military campaigns. Corsica, where he was born, was ethnically Italian, but part of France at the time of his birth. Your citations are irrelevant because none of them is saying any more than that Napoleon was ethnically Italian, something nobody is disputing. The question is, what does it mean to say someone is "Italian"? I don't see how the case here is any different from that of an Italian-speaking Swiss person. Would you call a German-speaker from South Tyrol German or Austrian? john k (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Ridiculous move result

Should I have just not voted, then waited until it was time to close and closed the move vote however I felt like it? Because that's what just happened. We had a move discussion a month ago as to whether to move to Napoleon. That position was fairly strongly rejected. Then we just had another move discussion deciding between Napoleon I and Napoleon Bonaparte, which was pretty much equally divided. The upshot? Closing admin comes along and moves to the location that was strongly rejected just one month ago. If RegentsPark thinks that Napoleon is the best location for this article, that's fine. But I don't see why he has any power to decide on such a move given the obvious lack of any consensus. Admins aren't gods. We don't get to simply decide to move pages to the location we like best. Our role is to use our tools to implement consensus, and there was nothing even vaguely close to consensus here. If RegentsPark feels strongly that the article should be at Napoleon, then he ought to have voted in the move discussion, not closed the move vote and moved to a location for which there is no evidence of consensus support. RegentsPark has no more right to unilaterally decide where the article should be than anybody else. john k (talk) 21:42, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll add that I am strongly, strongly inclined to reverse this move. john k (talk) 21:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree; where the hell did this come from? A few commentators noted that they preferred "Napoleon", but it was easily the least desired of the three options. siafu (talk) 21:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a bold move, to be sure, but I suggest only time will tell if it was the right or wrong decision. I suggest we leave it as be for at least six months. If there is consensus to move from Napoleon in six months, I hereby pledge my time and efforts to have it moved accordingly. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:54, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, you would suggest that, given that it's what you wanted all along. You know very well, of course, that we'll never get a proper consensus for any of these three options. But the article should remain where it is until such a consensus can be found. john k (talk) 22:00, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the theory that as long as there is no consensus to move, that the article should remain at A, even though there is obviously no consensus to keep it at A. The problem is that even though there is no consensus to move to B (or C or D), that does not mean that B (or C or D) won't gain consensus support once the article is moved there.

If there is obviously no consensus to keep an article where it is, then it should usually be moved to a title for which there is support (though perhaps not yet full consensus support), to see if consensus support for that other title develops with time.

This lesson should be well known by anyone involved with U.S. city debacles. For years many major cities like Chicago, Illinois, San Francisco, California, Los Angeles, California, etc. did not have consensus support to be at their titles, but consensus could not be established to move them to their more concise names either, though the moves were proposed fairly regularly. Finally when the great AP city compromise was achieved, they were moved, and nobody has ever even proposed moving any of them back to their previous names since. The current names are clearly stable. I do believe the same will occur with Napoleon, but here too only time will tell for sure. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:19, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

But there actually was consensus, or at least super-majority support, for the AP city compromise. There was nothing of the kind here. john k (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there was consensus support for the AP city compromise, and that's why the articles were finally moved. But my point is that once moved they were stable, and I suggest that's not because of the AP city compromise, but because they are inherently the "natural" names for those topics, just as "Napoleon" is the "natural" name for this one.

In general, specific naming guidelines are very useful for cases where there is no clear well-known natural name for the topic in question. But when there is a natural name, following the specific guideline instead of the natural/obvious name usually ends up being controversial (especially if the topic is particularly well-known), and rarely has consensus support, until the article is finally moved to the natural name, as was just done here, finally. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is not the guidelines but their over-application; and the solution is not to push for "natural" names regardless of circumstances.

• I respect Regent's Park for his attempt to cut through consensus to achieved a desirable outcome. Though need it being said, it's important to land on your feet on the right side of the line. I also disagree with the redirect argument; sometimes they point at the right title, sometimes not, this must be judged case by case. More importantly I disagree with this interpretation of wp:at:
• Recognizability Without reading any further than the title, one is more certain to have reached the article about the man and not the gold coin or the cognac or the man from UNCLE or whatnot.
• Naturalness There is nothing less natural about "the First" than about other monarchs. John I, Ethelred I, Arthur I, those are unnatural-sounding names.
• Precision much more descriptive, see "recognizability"
• Conciseness Saving one character, two if count the space, is such a pitiful miser that even a Dickensian avaricious character would hardly bother about it. On the other hand, this single character conveys a of information with a very high signal-to-noise ratio.
• Consistency Here we all agree it fits better with II & III.

Basically, all arguments for moving boil down to "it's an unusual surname". Yes, but it is not sufficient in and by itself. If he had been called "Joseph, " "Louis" or "Charles" we wouldn't be having any arguments.

Now that I look the new lead, it feels unfocussed the three different names(the title plus the two in bold). That the "I" comes first in the middle of the long sentence, it seems like an afterthought, something not really important, when we all know what role the Empire meant both for him personally and for Europe politically.

On more thing: just as "Napoleon Bonaparte" can be seen as a derogatory put-down, "Napoleon" emphasises his uniqueness and this could construed as viewing him as some kind of übermensch. ^walk victor falk ^talk 01:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Ûbermensch, that is exactly what it is trying to convey. But no one is mentioning that Napoléon himself decided that he would be number one when he divorced his first wife, and married his second one only in order to have a son who would succeed him, and that son, whom he named Napoléon, would become Napoléon II, implying that, after becoming Emperor, Napoléon Bonaparte considered himself to be Napoléon I.

Of course, that was before Waterloo and... Wikipedia.

--Frania W. (talk) 04:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

First sentence

Born2cycle has rewritten the first sentence to begin "Napoleon...", citing WP:LEAD#First_sentence. I reverted once, and still think that beginning with "Napoleon Bonaparte..." is fine. For policy, see the second bullet of that guideline: When the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, including variations... For examples, see articles like Petrarch, which begins, "Francesco Petrarca..."; or Björk, which begins, "Björk Guðmundsdóttir..." Thoughts? Dohn joe (talk) 05:19, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I see that Srnec already changed it back. So this will at least serve as a policy-based rationale for doing so if it's challenged again. Dohn joe (talk) 05:22, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

B2C - look again at the second bullet point of WP:LEAD#First_sentence. Further, note that for biographical articles, WP:LEAD directs us to WP:NAMES. Look in particular at WP:NAMES#Names, where its says, While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known. Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version. (emphasis added) Dohn joe (talk) 20:14, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for starting this discussion.

I have no objection to following WP:NAMES in terms of giving the full name in the lead paragraph, and my latest change did that. My objection is to using the full name as the grammatical subject of the lead sentence, which goes against the "the page title should be the subject of the first sentence."" guidance given at WP:LEAD#First_sentence.

This is especially problematic with this topic because using the full name to refer to this particular person is not done as consistently in reliable sources as it is typically done for most other people. For example, here is a biography about him that does not even mention the name "Bonaparte" until an appendix. I don't think we should incorrectly imply that the subject of this article is universally referred to by his full name in reliable sources, which we would be doing by using the full name as the subject of the lead sentence.

He is referred to most commonly, even in reliable sources, not by full name, but by just Napoleon. That's why the article title is what it is, and the subject of the first sentence should reflect and reinforce this point, while at the same time also giving the full name per WP:NAMES. That's exactly what this sentence does:

Napoleon (French: Napoléon Bonaparte [napoleɔ̃ bɔnɑpaʁt]; 15 August 1769 – 5 May 1821), also known as Napoleon I, Emperor of the French or his full name Napoleon Bonaparte, was ...

That version follows all of the pertinent guidance. What is your objection to it? --Born2cycle (talk) 20:48, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I tend to think we should give "Napoleon I" as his full name, and then Napoleon Bonaparte as his birth name. He is never formally known as simply "Napoleon" - that is a shortening of either "Napoleon I" (in the way that you'll often see Louis XIV called "Louis", or Napoleon III called "Napoleon") or, less correctly, a short or familiar way of referring to Napoleon Bonaparte. john k (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

But Napoleon Bonaparte is not his birth name. It is an Anglicisation of a Gallicisation of his Corsican Italian name. His regnal name, Napoleon I, is just his good old first name. He did not change his name like George VI or John Paul II. This is why I believe my proposed intro is the least misleading (although I would add dates for his imperial reign). Srnec (talk) 22:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I tried out a new first sentence along those lines. B2C, I think my sentence also follows WP's guidelines.

• From WP:LEAD: When the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, including variations...
• From WP:NAMES: the article should start with the complete version (of the subject's name, which in this case could be either "Napoleon Bonaparte" or "Napoleon I") Dohn joe (talk) 21:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't have an issue with the guidance about using "the complete version of the subject's name". My point is that in common usage Napoleon alone is "the complete version". "Napoleon I" and "Napoleon Bonaparte" are also used, to be sure, and should be mentioned, but they are not used as often as simply "Napoleon". --Born2cycle (talk) 23:04, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

    It's actually fairly common for the subject of the first sentence to differ from the article title, when the article title is a single name. For examples, I mentioned above Petrarch and Björk. There's also Michelangelo, and many others. Doesn't this article fall under the same category? Dohn joe (talk) 23:15, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

    If biographies and biographical articles about these figures often refer to them exclusively by first name without mentioning a more complete name, then they do fall in the same category, but I don't believe that's the case. For example, in the first book I searched on Michelangelo, his full name is mentioned only once, but it's at the beginning of the book. I suspect Napoleon is a fairly unique case, but not unprecedented. For example, the subject of the lead sentence in Cher is Cher. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

    I'm not sure I understand you. I have yet to find a book on Napoleon that doesn't mention "Bonaparte" as well. The book you cited above has over 100 instances of "Bonaparte". And in the first Michelangelo book I found on Google Books, the only mention in the text of "Michelangelo Buonarroti" is in a translation of his signature from Latin. I would venture that "Napoleon Bonaparte" is much more commonly found, relatively speaking, than "Michelangelo Buonarroti", and yet that article does not begin with plain "Michelangelo". Can you help me understand your position? Dohn joe (talk) 00:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

    "Most common name" is absoluely in no way a principle in what title you use at the beginning of the article. We have "Anthony Charles Lynton 'Tony' Blair" rather than "Tony Blair," but we can't have "Napoleon I" because of some bizarre interpretation that "Napoleon" is his full name? No, it's not. He's not Cher. He's called Napoleon because he was a monarch, not because he dropped his last name. You basically want us to imply that his name is more like Cher's than it is like Louis XVI's. That is pure nonsense. john k (talk) 06:30, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

• Indeed. This is exactly what I warned for when I spoke about Anaxagoras, Anaximander, et cetera. ^walk victor falk ^talk 09:57, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Napoléon Bonaparte is neither Cher nor[13]→→→[[14]]

--Frania W. (talk) 14:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, the reason and logic is indisputable. I stand corrected on several points. Accordingly, I now support using Napoleon Bonaparte as the subject of the lead sentence, per all the arguments above. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

• You will notice that when Louis XVI was guillotined, he had been sentence to death as "citizen Louis Capet". "Napoleon Bonaparte" is to Napoleon I what "Louis Capet" is to Louis XVI. Decapitation being replaced with exile. ^walk victor falk ^talk 05:49, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

[15] --Garfield

Edit request from IvanImperator, 21 March 2011

ENGLAND'S WARS AGAINST NAPOLEON By John Tarttelin, MA (History)

John Abbott said he "admires Napoleon because he abhorred war, and did everything in his power to avert that dire calamity..." 1 What to some may seem revisionism can, nevertheless, be the truth. The mis-named Napoleonic wars were caused, fostered and prosecuted by England against Napoleon. Not only were they expensive in terms of human life and British gold, they were not even necessary. Napoleon wanted peace with England and he tried repeatedly to get the British Cabinet to come to terms. But fate shot Napoleon's Fox. Had that illustrious statesman lived a little longer, England and France would have become friends and allies.

[... text deleted by User:Martinvl ]

Pitt must have been looking in a mirror. Here is a case of physician heal thyself, of the Greek 'know thyself', and perfidious Albion being described in the apparent ravings of a lunatic.

IvanImperator (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The above text was deleted by another editor. I have reinstated it, but trimmed out all save the first and last paragraphs as it is a direct copy of the webpage that can be found here. Would IvanImperator please register and then be more explicit as to why he posted that article here. Martinvl (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Article title

Why is the title just "Napoleon"? The page for Adolf Hitler isn't just "Hitler" and the page for Elvis Presley isn't just "Elvis". The name change seems really bizarre and unnecessary/ --80.5.222.104 (talk) 12:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)