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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 174.252.5.15 (talk) at 19:16, 28 February 2012 (→‎Infobox with Name Translations). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Lead sentence on ethnicity

Instead of commenting in old discussions, which most readers won't notice, let's use this section to discuss issues relating to Lin's ethnicity. Zagalejo^^^ 03:27, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There have been a lot of edit warring on the long-standing sentence: "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent." It is multiply sourced (some are in body per WP:LEADCITE)[1][2][3][4], with more sources found online for those who seek it. Please discuss any inaccuracies or the any motivation to remove from the lead or make more generic. For example, this edit says "Lin has received attention for being an undrafted Asian American prospect from Harvard." When there have been other Asian Americans in the NBA, and being from Harvard is not mentioned as much as his being first American who is of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent, the proposed revision does not capture the essence of Lin's notability based on the weight of reliable sources.—Bagumba (talk) 06:38, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Beck, Howard (December 29, 2011). "Newest Knick Out to Prove He's Not Just a Novelty". The New York Times. p. B10. Archived from the original on December 29, 2011.
  2. ^ "God is My Audience, Says Jeremy Lin, first Chinese-American Drafted by NBA". Gospel Herald. July 23, 2010. Retrieved November 26, 2010.
  3. ^ "Warriors' Lin hopes to break new ground in NBA". NBA.com. July 28, 2010. Archived from the original on November 12, 2010. Retrieved November 12, 2010.
  4. ^ "NBA Development League: Jeremy Lin Using Assignment To His Advantage". NBA.com. January 12, 2011. Retrieved March 8, 2011.
Initial discussions, collapsed due to length
Significantly more sources focus on Asian-American though. I would go with just that. 174.252.23.157 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:28, 6 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]
The second source conflicts with other sources by saying that he was drafted, while other sources say he was undrafted. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 07:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The fourth source can also be used to back that he is first American of Chinese descent.—Bagumba (talk) 07:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
re: 174.252.23.157: There is no accurate statement on being Asian American that can be made since its unclear how many generations can be counted when applying the term. There are numerous sources (some listed above) that are specific about him being of Taiwanese or of Chinese descent that are more accurate and succinct, that convey the same theme that he is Asian-American. Not mentioning his ethnicity in the lead is a disservice to readers, as there are other AAs in the NBA that didnt get the attention he is, and its often mention that he is the first America who is Chinese or Taiwanese to explain the phenomena.—Bagumba (talk) 07:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You don't have to say he is the nth Asian American. His ethnicity can be mentioned in the lead, but Asian American is more notable than first American of Chinese or Taiwanese descent. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 04:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Being undrafted and from Harvard has more recently been mentioned more than being Asian American. Both are probably high in frequency to warrant mention in the lead though. Being first American who is of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent is not as notable though. Seems so specific that it is trivia and probably shouldn't even be in the article. His ancestry is already in the article. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 07:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why it is trivial. Should Dirk Nowitzki be referred to as a generic European as opposed to saying succinctly that he is German? Enough reliable sources mention to show that its more than some random cross-section that was pulled together by one editor.—Bagumba (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dirk Nowitzki is a German national. He is a separate person and a totally different comparison. It does not even say that Nowitzki is the nth person of any descent. I think there are significantly more sources that offer other descriptions of Jeremy Lin. Even in the few sources that do use that do describe him that way, it is rarely the primary focus of the source. There some sources that are primarily about him being an Asian American though. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 09:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no source that explains why he receives more attention that others. The sources do not explicitly say he receives more attention that other Asian Americans because of his being the first of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 07:52, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But sources that cover him have mentioned him being the first multiple times that led to previous consensus that it was notable to mention. So aside from being "trivial" in your view, is there any other factors should be considered.—Bagumba (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is the Gospel Herald a reliable source? If so, should it be included that source says that he was drafted in addition to other sources saying he was undrafted? 198.151.130.66 (talk) 07:57, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously he was not drafted. Sources do make mistakes sometimes. It doesnt mean they need to be unconditionally thrown out altogether (there would be no such thing as reliable sources if that was the case). There is nothing unique in Gospel Herald re: being Chinese that isnt in other refs as well.—Bagumba (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sources overwhelmingly say he was undrafted, so I believe it should remain that way in the article. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 08:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No argument there.—Bagumba (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussions above show that the older revision did not receive consensus. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 08:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions take place in edit summaries as well. If you look at history outside of last 24 hours, this has been there almost a year and more if you go back before the in-article comments. However, consensus can change, which is the purpose of this discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 09:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Current news articles focus more on being undrafted from Harvard. http://www.northjersey.com/sports/138764059_What_s_up_next_for_Lin_.html This article says "Undrafted out of Harvard, waived by Golden State and Houston this year, and a practice worker bee to tune up Baron Davis and relegated to the D-League for a stretch, Lin could get the start" after saying "their latest starting point guard could be the most unlikely one." He is currently receiving a lot of attention now after his career game and the current Knicks point guard situation. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 09:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wall Street Journal on Feb 5 mentions being Chinese and Taiwanese. We can go on finding more sources for both sides. What does that prove? Without discounting one as being more important than the other, I suggest that they get mentioned a lot in reliable sources and his having no scholarship and being undrafted and being the first American of Chinese and of Taiwanese descent in the NBA belong in the lead.—Bagumba (talk) 09:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot. mention Harvard as well.—Bagumba (talk) 09:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Being notable for being Asian American is different than being notable for being the first American to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent. There are a couple sources that focus primarily on him being Asian American. Current news coverage however is focusing more on his career night and his role on the Knicks, so the weight is being shifted. Collectively, there are sources from mainstream news organizations that focus on his resume of being undrafted from Harvard and being an Asian American and his career. The Christian Gospel is not a mainstream news organization. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 10:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence was there for a while, but consensus was not reached for that sentence according to multiple sections of the talk page. In those sections of the talk page, usage of that sentence was actually not in favor, before activity went stale. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 09:19, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We can argue letter of the law, but that would be unproductive. Fact is that many articles (not just here) resolve themselves through actual edits, and discussions aren't always updated after the fact. Consensus can also be reached through silence. In any case, if there is a new consensus, let's establish it.—Bagumba (talk) 09:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These are the Asian American NBA players that have been identified: Wataru Misaka, Raymond Townsend, Corey Gaines, Rex Walters, and Robert Swift. When multiple sources support that he is "the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent", it doesnt seem trivial to me to use the more accurate statement of his Asian heritage and his place in the NBA than just saying he is a generic "Asian American in the NBA". Should we just call him a basketball player and not mention the NBA or his teams either because they are in the body. How watered down do we want the lead?—Bagumba (talk) 10:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See above. Being notable for being Asian American is different than being notable for being the first American to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 10:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


There are two issues here: 1) the idea that he is of both Taiwanese and Chinese descent, and 2) the significance of his being Asian. I take issue with saying he is of Chinese and Taiwanese descent, mostly because almost all Taiwanese people themselves are of Chinese descent and are undoubtedly ethnically Chinese, as their ancestors moved to Taiwan only a few decades before the family moved from Taiwan to the United States. Therefore, it is actually much more accurate and more NPOV to say that Lin is an "American basketball player of Chinese descent whose parents migrated from Taiwan." The second issue is perhaps much more pertinent. While he is clearly not the first Asian-American in the NBA, he is clearly the first Asian-American to gain such prominence and being outwardly identified as East Asian. Townsend, Gaines, or Walters do not have the distinction of looking like they are Asian, while Misaka was not terribly notable in his own right and also played basketball before television. So while Misaka may be able to claim the distinction of being the first full-blooded Asian American player in the NBA, Lin is the first to achieve such notability with relation to his Asian heritage. Colipon+(Talk) 15:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The compromise language, which I believe did have consensus support, as well as support from the citations, indicates both his ethnicity and the associated nationality. The version you suggest puts the emphasis on his parents, which is inappropriate. de Bivort 15:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The political status of Taiwan makes this issue very difficult - but the fact is both the NYT and Lin himself makes it clear that he is "Chinese" with "parents from Taiwan." The NYT does state that he is of "Chinese and Taiwanese descent", that does not make it accurate or encyclopedic. Even if Taiwan's political status was not under dispute, saying that he is of "Taiwanese descent" is still disingenuous because of the brief period that his family resided in Taiwan. It would be akin to calling Konrad Ng and Maya Soetoro Ng's kids "Americans of Chinese and Canadian descent".

A compromise solution can be to leave out the 'descent' part altogether. Because we don't seem to mention that over half of the players in the NBA are "of African descent" or "of Nigerian" "Guinean" "Congolese" "descent" in any way, and just mention he has Chinese heritage and that his parents are from Taiwan. Colipon+(Talk) 15:46, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We might be able to minimize the impact of the political status of Taiwan on this article because Jeremy Lin is an American citizen. What if emphasize his nationality? Would referring to Lin as "an American of Taiwanese descent" be accurate, as well as mitigate editing wars? It seems that mentioning Chinese descent is redundant. NYCRuss ☎ 18:23, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's a lightning rod because of political status to mention one and not the other. It's the reason this article is constantly a subject of drive-by removal of either "Taiwanese" or "Chinese" based on nationalistic pride.—Bagumba (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
re "African descent" analogy: I understand the point you are trying to make, but the distinction in Lin's case is that Taiwanese or Chinese is often mentioned whereas for most African-American's their specific heritage is not mentioned. Wikipedia provides due weight based on it prevalence in sources.—Bagumba (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The beef I have with "Chinese and Taiwanese descent" is that it is plain inaccurate, not that I want to 'hide' the mention of Taiwan. In fact, in my proposal I explicitly put forth the suggestion of saying that his parents are migrants to the US from Taiwan. This is a totally neutral way of describing the situation, and totally accurate, it is consistent with what Lin says himself on the subject (i.e. "I am proud of being Chinese, I am proud of my parents being from Taiwan"). Also, in this formula, it is up to the reader to judge whether Taiwan refers to the island Taiwan or the country that is now commonly known by that name, and should satisfy both Taiwan nationalists and Chinese nationalists alike. Colipon+(Talk) 19:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What about " Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese extraction." de Bivort 19:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest Lin, whose parents migrated to the United States from Taiwan, is the first Chinese-American to play in the NBA. He has received prominent media coverage due to his ethnic background and the scarcity of Asian players in the NBA, and raised questions about racial issues dealing with Asian Americans in general.

Neutrality, check. Accuracy, check. Due weight, check. Colipon+(Talk) 20:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No original research. Some sources say first Chinese American. Some sources say first Taiwanese American. Some sources say both. There has also been concern with feedback loop from some of the sources, but otherwise they are both accurate. There are three things in question of being notable for the lead: Notable for being Asian American, notable for being the first American of Chinese descent, and notable for being the first American of Taiwanese descent. We can have none, one, two, or all three in the lead. There are some sources that focus primarily on him being Asian American. I believe that this should be the only one of the three mentioned in the lead. Other news about him are about his career, resume, and general biography/info. It is also possible to mention Chinese or Taiwanese descent without using the word "first", but it is still not good for the lead. 198.151.130.66 (talk) 20:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the IP on this one. Gotta go with the sources. Extraction should go a ways toward addressing your ethnicity vs nationality concerns Colipon. de Bivort 20:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing descent discussion at #Usage of "descent".—Bagumba (talk) 23:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jackie Robinson mentions that he is the first black in baseball. Mentioning someone as the 1st XXXX of something isnt necessarily trivia. A fact doesnt need to be mentioned in every source to merit inclusion in the lead. Every source does not mention the number of All-Star appearance of a player, but a player being an All-Star is notable for a lead. Failure of a majority of sources to mention that Lin is the first American in the NBA of Taiwanese or of Chinese descent does not rule out its inclusion in the lead. It is sourced often enough by independent sources to rule it out as trivia.—Bagumba (talk) 23:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier...174.252.11.176 (talk) 03:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Saying that someone is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent is much more specific than saying that someone is the first black MLB player of the modern era. There are sources that focus on Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier. There are some mainstream media sources that primarily focus on Jeremy Lin being Asian American, but not specifically on him being the first American NBA player to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent. This is why I propose a sentence similar to "Lin has received attention for being an undrafted Asian American prospect from Harvard." 198.151.130.67 (talk) 04:15, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Jackie Robinson article also has a lot of information in the body on breaking the Baseball color line, including an entire seciton in the body. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 23:13, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

YAO MING IS CHINESE AND CAME BEFORE LIN. THIS IS GROSSLY INACCURATE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.104.67.8 (talk) 05:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you missed the fact that Lin's nationality is American, unlike Yao who is Chinese.—Bagumba (talk) 16:56, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Usage of "descent"

Re: The beef I have with "Chinese and Taiwanese descent" is that it is plain inaccurate: There are sources that say he is Chinese-American and also Taiwanese-American. Is the contention that descent is improper because his ancestors immigrated to Taiwan as opposed to being "native"? It doesnt appear convention in Wikipedia is to make such a fine distinction. I'd be surprised if articles under Category:American sportspeople of Asian descent are that strict.—Bagumba (talk) 23:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After another career game on Feb 6 (Tuesday night) against Utah, AP wrote "... Lin, the first American-born NBA player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent ...". This is oft-mentioned in the press.—Bagumba (talk) 03:35, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That seems totally copied from he beginning of this article...174.252.11.176 (talk) 03:41, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh hey - this is a possibility. de Bivort 04:07, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Descent" is used to mean that he can trace his lineage. His parents are from Taiwan. His grandmother is from China. "Extraction" is a synonym. I still think being Asian American is more notable either way. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 04:22, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The clueless media just copies this article and its unique wording word for word. This article itself us influencing the media and giving undue weight. Please remove these problems from the intro while it us locked174.252.11.176 (talk) 06:30, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's a stretch to call it "copying", especially when it is verifiable from readily available sources that he is in fact the first NBA player to be either Chinese-American or Taiwanese-American. Unless someone can show sources to prove this statement is factually incorrect, this particular "copying" argument is not constructive.—Bagumba (talk) 17:45, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the dares of the sources and the date of when the sentence was added to the article.Prior to the addition of the sentence there were a couple sources that said first Taiwanese American and first Chinese American. Then this unique phrase of first American born player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent was created for this article. Some writers copied the exact phrase. The media just copies this unusually worded phrase originally created in Wikipedia to describe him to people who are unfamiliar with him. This article was one of the first sources of info on him because he was not well known. 174.252.21.137 (talk)| —Preceding undated comment added 19:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]
Prior to the addition of the sentence there were a couple sources that said first Taiwanese American and first Chinese American.: You seem to agree there is no concern that the statement is verifiable. I dont know if you can attribute it's popularity to Wikipedia, there's a lot of stuff on Wikipedia that is not in the news. Theories aside, the statement is mentioned a lot, is factually correct, and should be mentioned in the lead.—Bagumba (talk) 20:13, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it is mention a lot (not mentioned as much as Asian American or Harvard are), that does not make it notable. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail. It is frequently mentioned that he was back up point guard. Does that mean it should be in the lead? Only if there was something like significant mainstream media analyzing is role as a back up point guard. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you are confusing notability of an article with content within an article, which follows WP:DUE, not WP:GNG.—Bagumba (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The lead should summarize the body. The term Asian American fits as part of the body is about Lin being Asian American. On the other hand, "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent" does the opposite of summarizing the body and does not belong in the lead. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 22:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:LEAD: "It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is interesting or notable." Lin's being the first of those ethnicities/nationalities is context and explains why (in part) he is interesting and notable. de Bivort 22:52, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It does not establish context. Those specific pieces of information is not even in the body of the article. However, there is information about him being Asian American in the body of the article. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 23:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh come on. "he's chinese/taiwanese american" and "he's asian american" are the same piece of information, but the former is more specific! The fact that he's the first, doesn't need to be repeated, it's a once-off. But to act like it isn't notable just seems preposterous to me. Actually, I'm not even sure the point you're trying to make. Can you rephrase it with different words? de Bivort 23:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First, the sentence in the lead says "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent", not "he's chinese/taiwanese american". The former is even more specific. How can it be in the lead if it is not even in the body? The first step would be to remove it from the lead. The second step would be to decide if those pieces of information should be in the body. The third step would be to decide if it should be in the lead if decided that it should be in the body. Second, I proposed possibly adding the sentence "Lin has received attention for being an undrafted Asian American prospect from Harvard" due to the number of sources that focus on him being Asian American http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/sports/basketball/lin-leads-knicks-over-nets.html (source for "unusual résumé is more well known than his game", other sources to follow). Third, I also propose possible adding a sentence about the Asian American community. I said before that being notable for being Asian American is different than being notable for being the first American in the NBA of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent. Do you think he would receive the same attention if he were an Asian American player that was not the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent? We can't really say because the sources don't address that (I would think so based on the sources but don't put that because that is not related and would be original research). The sources do however say the importance of "Asian American". http://www.nesn.com/2010/07/jeremy-lin-represents-asianamericans-ivy-leaguers-in-nba.html http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/16/SPD213J9RD.DTL http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/22/SPTF1EHVRL.DTL http://www.nesn.com/2010/07/jeremy-lin-represents-asianamericans-ivy-leaguers-in-nba.html http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/14094/rex-walters-following-the-jeremy-lin-story http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_16724722?source=commented-nuggets He can be notable for being an Asian American player as well as the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent, but they are separate things. Also, some sources say Asian American community, which would also be different and may warrant being in the lead along with Lin being Asian American. (Some sources may also connect the two by saying that he is important to the Asian American community because he is Asian American) http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/10/22/lin-rookie/?ls=iref:nbahpt1 (source is about both Asian-American community and also about Lin himself being Asian-American). http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/22/SP671EHVTD.DTL http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2009-10/releases/100106_Lin_ESPN_Feature 198.151.130.67 (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
[TopicBranch – Proposal]
[TopicBranch – Proposal]—Bagumba (talk) 00:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is response to de Bivort 04:07, 7 February 2012: Given the common use of "descent" in Wikipedia articles, I'm failing to see the argument against its use in this article. Please point out where the inacurracy is.—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Heh. I have no problem with using descent, or extraction. I offered extraction as a response to the idea that because he is only 1 generation Taiwanese, we can't call him of "Taiwanese descent". But my objection was not to that usage, only the alternatives proposed by Colipon and maybe one of the IPs. To be honest, I've lost track a bit. de Bivort 00:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More sources in addition to the four already above that mention him being the first Chinese-American or Taiwanese American:
  1. "The NBA's Unlikeliest New Hero". The Wall Street Journal. February 7, 2012. The response was even more ecstatic on the Chinese blogosphere, which rallied to the side of the NBA's first Chinese-American player.
  2. "Chinese shrug at offensive Super Bowl ad". msnbc.com. February 6, 2012. But for many of his fans, it's been more notable that he's the first Chinese-American to play in the N.B.A
  3. "Jeremy Lin goes wild: It's only 2 games… but wow (and a Warriors-Lin explainer)". San Jose Mercury News. February 6, 2012. But it was Lin. Out of Harvard. Chinese-American. What a story, no matter how else this develops.
  4. "Knicks point guard Jeremy Lin is lighting up the Big Apple". The Washington Post. February 7, 2012. Jeremy Lin is an undrafted second-year point guard out of Harvard, and the first American-born NBA player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent.
  5. "Knicks overcome Carmelo Anthony injury as Jeremy Lin hangs career-high 28 on Jazz". ESPN.com. February 6, 2012. D'Antoni decided to start Lin, the first American-born NBA player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent, earlier Monday, and the position could be his for a while.
I ask that those who disagree with the inclusion of "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent" in the lead cite sources and/or policies and guidelines on why a specific fact that has been mentioned in multiple sources for over a year is not notable or reliable enough to be in the lead.—Bagumba (talk) 17:45, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Judging by these sources I think my above proposal calling him "Chinese-American whose parents migrated to the U.S. from Taiwan" seems pretty reasonable. Colipon+(Talk) 17:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think that your phrasing is awkward, no more consistent with the references than the current version, and against an ongoing consensus. Sorry. de Bivort 18:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is in a few sources, but it is not in as many as Asian-American is. As said before, there are articles that even primarily focus on him being Asian American. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 18:39, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Being in 2 heavy duty reliable sources (WaPo and ESPN) is sufficient for the inclusion of this language, there is no requirement that it appear in all reliable source mentions of him. de Bivort 18:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention the sources that mention that he is the first Chinese-American or the other ones that say he is the first Taiwanese-American.—Bagumba (talk) 19:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My proposal deals with this "Asian American" issue neatly and succinctly (read it above). Colipon+(Talk) 18:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Colipon - how many generations does afamily need to live where they've migrated before you will say that their progeny "descend" from that region? I'm 3-7 generations American, can I say I'm of American descent? de Bivort 18:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can you comment on your concerns as to why "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent" needs to be watered down in spite of it being mentioned in so many sources. Otherwise, saying the equivalent of "I just don't like it" will not help convince others without understanding your reasoning. His parents are rarely mentioned in articles, so I'm not sure why that is considered more notable than the NBA milestone. WP:WEIGHT says, "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public."—Bagumba (talk) 18:57, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are MORE sources that use the term Asian American. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 19:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Lin has received attention for being an undrafted Asian American prospect from Harvard." What is wrong with this sentence? It is not watering down because being notable for being Asian American is different than being notable for being the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent. You can include both sentences, but the latter is clearly not as notable as the former. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 19:20, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Its WP:WABBITSEASON. Please present sources to support your position on "There are MORE sources that use the term Asian American." Debivort earlier responded to you, "there is no requirement that it appear in all reliable source mentions of him." Please explain or point to policy/guideline that we should consider to override due WP:WEIGHT in sources.—Bagumba (talk) 19:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure he has received more attention for being a basketball player, so why should we do original research and make a limited statement on why he is receiving attention. The fact that any statement is written in Wikipedia automatically implies it received attention in some reliable source. No need for redundant "Lin has received attention for". Unless sources are identified that say why he is receiving coverage, it is only appropriate to report what is in the coverage, not why it was covered. Again, please provide your sources.—Bagumba (talk) 19:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent" also conveys that he is an Asian American.—Bagumba (talk) 19:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
He is receiving attention for being a basketball player, but that is already in the lead. You can change the wording so that it doesn't say "received attention" if you want. http://www.nesn.com/2010/07/jeremy-lin-represents-asianamericans-ivy-leaguers-in-nba.html http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=4730385 http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/10/22/lin-rookie/?ls=iref:nbahpt1 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/16/SPD213J9RD.DTL http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/22/SP671EHVTD.DTL http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123368990 http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2009-10/releases/100106_Lin_ESPN_Feature http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/22/SPTF1EHVRL.DTL http://www.nesn.com/2010/07/jeremy-lin-represents-asianamericans-ivy-leaguers-in-nba.html http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/14094/rex-walters-following-the-jeremy-lin-story http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_16724722?source=commented-nuggets http://www.patheos.com/blogs/philosophicalfragments/2012/02/06/jeremy-lin-and-the-soft-bigotry-of-low-expectations/ 198.151.130.67 (talk) 19:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While it does convey being an Asian American, being notable for being Asian American is different than being notable for being the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 19:55, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
He is receiving attention for being a basketball player, but that is already in the lead.: So we agree that his being the first XXX in the NBA can be in the lead even if something else is mentioned more—they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If we add (addition underlined) "Lin is Asian-American and is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent", it just seems repetitive IMO. I think there is more coverage about Lin being a basketball player who is also an AA than sources focused on him being an AA with only passing mention of his basketball career.—Bagumba (talk) 20:38, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is like why we don't mention he is a Californian instead of American in the lead (which would convey that he is American unless he lost his citizenship but that is besides the point) or why we didn't say that is was a back up point guard instead of basketball player for the Knicks (which would convey that he is a basketball player.) 198.151.130.67 (talk) 20:31, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If he was famous for being a Californian, it would be in the lead. See James "Grizzly" Adams. However, it needs to be supported by sources. Kobe Bryant has his position in the lead, but Lin is not established at that position yet.—Bagumba (talk) 20:38, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is frequently mentioned that Lin is a point guard. It should not be in the lead unless there were enough mainstream sources that focus on that. See Steve Nash. There are articles that analyze him in his position as point guard that are not just scouting reports. Even then, it is not the same as being notable for being a basketball player. Notice in articles like Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, and Allen Iverson that their position does not supplant the part of the sentence that says they are basketball players, even though saying they played an NBA position would convey that. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 20:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Being a point guard is a technical basketball term, so it would not be suitable in the first sentence of a lead without first mentioning that he is a basketball player. "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent" is written in laymen terms, so Asian American does not need to be spelled out.—Bagumba (talk) 21:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Therefore, being notable for the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent is not the same as being notable for being Asian American and is not redundant. How many articles are written with him American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent as the primary focus? It is mentioned in a lot of articles but it is not the focus of those article. Many of his biographies say that he is from California, but that is not notable for the lead. MVP awards and all-star selections are often notable in the lead because there are frequently articles awards focusing on those things or the number of said accolades a player has received. If the lead were to include "first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent" (which I don't think it should), it should definitely include Asian American.198.151.130.67 (talk) 21:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We need to apply criteria consistently. There are few articles where his being Asian American is the "primary focus" either, but I wouldnt say its not notable. "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent" conveys he is Asian American. If we can agree it should be included (even if you view it as less important than him being AA) how would you want it modified to address any remaining concerns?—Bagumba (talk) 21:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"I think there is more coverage about Lin being a basketball player who is also an AA than sources focused on him being an AA with only passing mention of his basketball career." That is why my sentence says "Asian-American prospect." 198.151.130.67 (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Are you referring to your proposal with "received attention ..."? This was already addressed as redundant and/or WP:OR. Also, "prospect" is not the right term when he has played in the NBA for two seasons, and there are few sources that say what is the upside they are expecting. Anyways, an unrelated topic for this thread.—Bagumba (talk) 21:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is not redundant. Do you think he would receive the same attention if he were an Asian American player that was not the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent? We can't really say because the sources don't address that (I would think so though). The sources do however say the importance of "Asian American". http://www.nesn.com/2010/07/jeremy-lin-represents-asianamericans-ivy-leaguers-in-nba.html http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/16/SPD213J9RD.DTL http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/22/SPTF1EHVRL.DTL http://www.nesn.com/2010/07/jeremy-lin-represents-asianamericans-ivy-leaguers-in-nba.html http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/14094/rex-walters-following-the-jeremy-lin-story http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_16724722?source=commented-nuggets He can be notable for both, but they are separate things. Also, some sources say Asian American community, which would also be different and may warrant being in the lead along with Lin being Asian American. http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/10/22/lin-rookie/?ls=iref:nbahpt1 (source is about both Asian-American community and also about Lin himself being Asian-American). http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/22/SP671EHVTD.DTL http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2009-10/releases/100106_Lin_ESPN_Feature Also, I used "prospect" because the articles were on when he was a prospect. That word can be replaced with something like "college and NBA player" if new sources about this arises. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.151.130.67 (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
[TopicBranch – Proposal]
Descent, heritage, ethnicity, ethnic background, Chinese-American or Taiwanese-American, which ever is preferred. BTW, here's another article that mentions he's the first Chinese-American, as well as his parents being Taiwanese immigrants.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2012/02/07/oh-the-lin-sanity-china-has-a-new-basketball-hero/ PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 09:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also another reason why I decided to go with American of Chinese descent because I wanted to emphasize the "American" part and make it clear that's his nationality and his Chinese/Taiwanese is part of his ethnicity and heritage. Things can get complicated though in the future if Jeremy Lin decides to play international basketball for either the PROC or ROC national teams, then he would have to have citizenship from those countries. As of right now, China does not allow dual citizenship while ROC does. People then might argue that Jeremy Lin is technically an American (USA) and Taiwanese (ROC) by nationality which complicates things even further more because that would promote the usage of TAIWANESE over Chinese by users. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 09:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
American of XXX descent came in as a non-repetive way to see say he is both Chinese-American and Taiwanese-American.—Bagumba (talk) 09:19, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It could be clearer to use two separate sentences. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 09:44, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

Suggestion 1: There seems to be concern that the existing sentence, "Lin is the first American player in the NBA to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent.", does not convey the rarity of an Asian American player in the NBA, let alone a Chinese-American or Taiwanese American. If we can agree that being the first American of Chinese or Taiwanese descent belongs in the lead, I propose the following new wording "One of the few Asian-Americans in NBA history, Lin is also the first American player to be of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent in the league."—Bagumba (talk) 00:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • support sounds very reasonable to me. de Bivort 00:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • conditional support. Upon reviewing the sources I would say this version is more or less fine. I will still put forth my suggestion below, mostly because I believe stylistically saying he is "of Chinese or Taiwanese descent" is awkward and non-neutral. But it does not concern me a great deal. Colipon+(Talk) 00:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "If we can agree that being the first American of Chinese or Taiwanese descent belongs in the lead" This has not yet been agreed upon Even then, are there enough details on the subjects in the body to put it in the lead? Nevertheless, your proposal is skipping steps as it first needs to be agreed upon that that it belongs in the lead. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 00:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • See Jeremy_Lin#Golden_State_Warriors, 2nd paragraph. This is a discussion, so there is no skipping steps per se. Note I said "if" in the proposal. Sorry, if it was misleading. The proposal is exactly to discuss whether it belongs in the lead. There are no WP:VOTEs in WP.—Bagumba (talk) 01:17, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • are there enough details on the subjects in the body to put it in the lead? He's been an American all his life, he's been descended from Taiwanese and Chinese his whole life, and he's played basketball since a kid to make it to NBA. Sources—rightly or wrongly—put tags on people when they are "the first person who ..." When they are used often enough, they are deemed notable for the lead. WP:LEAD says "explain why the topic is interesting or notable." There are other examples of "first" statements being in the lead—José Ortiz: "Ortíz is also the first Puerto Rican player to be drafted in the NBA." John Lee (placekicker): "Lee is the first player of Korean descent to be drafted into the NFL.", Andrei Kirilenko: "The Utah Jazz drafted him in 1999, and he became the first Russian player selected in the first round of a draft and youngest European player drafted." Dat Nguyen:"He played professionally for the NFL's Dallas Cowboys, became the first Vietnamese-American to play in the NFL, and was recognized as an All-Pro."—Bagumba (talk) 06:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • These examples are individual cases and needed to be treated as such. Being the first of something may or may not be notable for the lead. Many other articles may also need work and may not be following guidelines appropriately. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 07:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Look, lots of editors evidently think it's appropriate to indicate when someone is the first of a particular nationality to enter a league. Unless you have some principled argument against this, dismissing all the other articles with the broad brush stroke of "these are individual cases" is not at all compelling. Moreover, what makes it notable is not up to you - the reliable sources feature it, and that makes it appropriate for inclusion. de Bivort 07:17, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • Being the first a particular nationality to enter a professional league is generally more notable than being the first of an ethnic group to due to international competition. It is not evident that lots of editors think it is appropriate to indicate when someone is the first of an ethnic group to enter a league, especially in the lead. Low importance articles in particular may not be following guidelines. What details provided by mainstream sources in the body of this article are there on the significance of him being the first American NBA player of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent? 198.151.130.67 (talk) 07:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • There are several sources stating that Yao Ming is first international player ever to be selected first overall without having previously played U.S. college basketball, but that is not in the lead of the article on Yao Ming because it is trivia, despite being mentioned several times. 198.151.130.67 (talk) 09:44, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Unless you can explain why it is not notable in this case, but it is in others, I think we'll agree to disagree here. I would agree trivia does not belong in the lead, but inclusion in at least 12 sources is enough for me to deem it not as trivia, and WP:LEAD says "interesting or notable" facts belong in the lead. I dont understand why even (as you argue) being AA is more important (in your opinion), that it needs to be mutually exclusive from mentioning his being first American of Chinese or Taiwanese descent. Not sure why both can't exist in the lead. Unless improved wording is proposed, this will be my recommendation. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 07:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Following convention of !vote per nominator below.—Bagumba (talk) 00:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment From above thread, here are the sources that cites his being C-A and T-A in NBA.
Sources for 1st Chinese-American/Taiwanese-American in NBA
  1. Beck, Howard (December 29, 2011). "Newest Knick Out to Prove He's Not Just a Novelty". The New York Times. p. B10. Archived from the original on December 29, 2011. Lin, whose parents are from Taiwan, is the N.B.A.'s first American-born player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent.
  2. "God is My Audience, Says Jeremy Lin, first Chinese-American Drafted by NBA". Gospel Herald. July 23, 2010. Retrieved November 26, 2010.
  3. "Warriors' Lin hopes to break new ground in NBA". NBA.com. July 28, 2010. Archived from the original on November 12, 2010. Retrieved November 12, 2010. The first Taiwanese-American signed by an NBA team hopes to overcome the negative stereotype of playing college basketball at Harvard and plans on eventually becoming a minister in an inner-city neighborhood.
  4. "NBA Development League: Jeremy Lin Using Assignment To His Advantage". NBA.com. January 12, 2011. Retrieved March 8, 2011. As the first Chines-American player to reach the NBA and the first player from the Ivy League player (Harvard) in the NBA since 2003, Lin has a few more eyes following him than your average undrafted rookie free agent.
  5. "The NBA's Unlikeliest New Hero". The Wall Street Journal. February 7, 2012. The response was even more ecstatic on the Chinese blogosphere, which rallied to the side of the NBA's first Chinese-American player.
  6. "Chinese shrug at offensive Super Bowl ad". msnbc.com. February 6, 2012. But for many of his fans, it's been more notable that he's the first Chinese-American to play in the N.B.A
  7. "Jeremy Lin goes wild: It's only 2 games… but wow (and a Warriors-Lin explainer)". San Jose Mercury News. February 6, 2012. But it was Lin. Out of Harvard. Chinese-American. What a story, no matter how else this develops.
  8. "Knicks point guard Jeremy Lin is lighting up the Big Apple". The Washington Post. February 7, 2012. Jeremy Lin is an undrafted second-year point guard out of Harvard, and the first American-born NBA player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent.
  9. "Knicks overcome Carmelo Anthony injury as Jeremy Lin hangs career-high 28 on Jazz". ESPN.com. February 6, 2012. D'Antoni decided to start Lin, the first American-born NBA player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent, earlier Monday, and the position could be his for a while.
  10. "Knicks' Jeremy Lin takes New York by storm". USA Today. February 7, 2012. "Linsanity" is the word in New York with what undrafted, Harvard-educated, former Development League guard Jeremy Lin — the NBA's first American-born Chinese or Taiwanese player — is doing to spark the Knicks.
  11. "Lin steals the show with perfect shots to down Bobcats". The Central News Agency. January 25, 2012. Scoring 8 points in less than six minutes, Jeremy Lin, the first player of Taiwanese descent to make the roster of a National Basketball Association (NBA) team, asserted himself Wednesday as a legitimate NBA talent.
  12. "Oh the Lin-Sanity! China Has a New Hardcourt Hero". The Wall Street Journal. February 7, 2012. Lin is the first Chinese-American player in the NBA, and spent his first season with the Golden State Warriors, who signed the undrafted Harvard graduate in 2010 to fill out their roster.


Suggestion 2: Lin, whose parents migrated to the United States from Taiwan, is the first Chinese-American to play in the NBA.

Suggestion 3: "Lin has received attention for being an undrafted Asian American prospect from Harvard."

If people would prefer to note that he's Asian-American, rather than Chinese-American or Taiwanese-American [not OR OF] then I would be ok with that too. If it was re-worde to something along the lines of, "First Asian-American in the NBA to go undrafted" then it would make it more notable for being the First Asian-American in the NBA in that sense. But I can't provide any sources that has that kind of wording, it's more like his overall profile. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 08:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion 4: No lead sentence on ethnicity.

PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 08:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC) I actually wouldn't mind him being the most notable Asian-American in the NBA. However, being specific with his ethnicity and heritage is also important. However, being the first American of Chinese or Taiwanese descent was my choice of words when I decided to input that in his Wiki. Some people were offended and decided to put "Chinese or OF Taiwanese descent" which to me doesn't really make sense. Chinese or Taiwanese implies that he can be either or both, when in reality he acknowledges both. There's multiple sources from himself that clarifies this. Also there's even videos that also source him as being the first Chinese-American.[reply]

Jeremy Lin interview by Rick Quan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR7p-vmFp24
First Person: Jeremy Lin (full interview) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqrrKLcvPSE

PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 08:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


I'd like to support the notion that Jeremy Lin should be recognized as "Taiwanese" specifically as that's what he is. Demetriusss (talk) 18:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No he is an American. His parents immgrated from Taiwan, and either they or their parents/grandparents are from China. Enough sources call him Taiwanese-American or Chinese-American that Wikipedia should not get into political issues with Taiwan/China.—Bagumba (talk) 19:08, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The line should read 'The first American born player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlieb 97 (talk • contribs) 00:29, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reuters, one of the most credible news source in the world, cites Jeremy Lin as clearly being *Taiwanese-American*. Please study the reference: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/11/us-nba-knicks-idUSTRE81A04W20120211 Demetriusss (talk) 05:14, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The current Wikipedia article says, "He would become the first American of Chinese or of Taiwanese descent to play in the NBA." Do you have a problem with this wording? 198.151.130.68 (talk) 05:28, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's been clearly pointed that his lineage is Taiwanese, his dad's from Beidou, Changhua, and his mom's from Taiwan also. Source: http://news.rti.org.tw/index_newsContent.aspx?nid=251863 (Shadic189 (talk) 09:46, 12 February 2012 (UTC))[reply]
The sentence says Taiwanese descent. 198.151.130.68 (talk) 22:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First player of Asian or Taiwanese descent

Please change it to "of Taiwanese descent". Taiwanese (ROC) is different from chinese. Taiwan is a democratic country with a history of its own. China is a communist country with uneducated leaders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.229.126 (talk) 06:40, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Either Lin's parents or grandparents are from China. The use of "descent" implies nothing about political status, or whether Lin identifies himself as Taiwanese-American, Chinese-American, or just plain American. It just says where his ancestors are from. At any rate, Lin said, "You can call me a Taiwanese basketball player, a Chinese basketball player or just a basketball player."[12]—Bagumba (talk) 07:37, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article currently says, " his maternal grandmother is from Pinghu, Zhejiang in today's China", though the reference is non-English. There are sources that use the same exact phrasing of "first American of ...", though that may be the result of feedback loop. 198.151.130.68 (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just for full clarity, Lin's own family considers themselves Taiwanese. 3/4ths of his family were part of the Fukinese emigration during the 1700s to Taiwan and do not consider themselves to have anything to do with China. In addition, the 1/4th of his family (maternal grandmother) that is considered of "Chinese decent" left China during the civil war. Jeremy is the quintessential example of a Taiwanese American.

"While in the car, Lin’s uncle volunteered his views on one of the most contentious questions on the Internet about Jeremy Lin and his family: whether they are Taiwanese or Chinese. “For sure, they are Taiwanese,” Lin Chi Chung said. “I spoke to Jeremy Lin’s father, who is my younger brother, and he said, ‘Make sure you point this out.’ ” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/sports/basketball/jeremy-lins-grandmother-watches-along-with-taiwan.html?_r=1

"feedback loop" is a valid concern; However, with the number of normally reputable sources reporting it (even if they "borrowed" the wording from Wikipedia), a reasonable assumption is that they verified the information to be true. Also, verifiable, contradicting facts would be needed to question the reliability of the statement.—Bagumba (talk) 20:57, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is false, Wataru Misaka is the first Asian-American NBA player, all the way back in 1947. Here's the link. 71.231.138.155 (talk) 05:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the lead again. It says he is the first chinese/taiwanese-american. Misaka is japanese american. de Bivort 05:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As cited in our own article on Wataru Misaka,    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 05:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't understand why this issue keeps occurring, when it clearly states where Jeremy has said "I am proud to be Chinese". He is not exclusive to his Taiwanese heritage and recognizes his Chinese heritage. Jeremy Lin says "I am Proud to be Chinese". Straight from Jeremy Lin. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 21:28, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another video where Jeremy Lin says, "I'm Chinese". Quite frankly, this issue should be resolved. We're not going off of peoples' opinions. What matters most is what Jeremy Lin says and he has no problem with people referring to him as someone of Chinese descent. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 02:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because quite frankly many Taiwanese people couldn't care less about what Jeremy Lin calls himself. He is now a political tool for the ultra-nationalists of Taiwan and shall be treated as such.72.136.246.194 (talk) 04:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is presented neutrally giving due weight based on prevalence in sources. Sources say it is important, independent of one person's interest or one person's opinion of Taiwanese people's interest.—Bagumba (talk) 07:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

President comparison

After graduating Harvard you have a better chance of becoming President of the United States than playing in the National Basketball Association.

This fact is based on four Harvard graduates ever making an NBA roster and playing 1 minute.

There were five US Presidents whose alma mater was Harvard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.20.16.194 (talk) 05:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:NOR. It's a good point, but we need to have some reliable sources say it before we do. Doc talk 05:22, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is sourced [13]; however I think it's trivia unless it's mentioned by a few other sources too.—Bagumba (talk) 07:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This source says "The point guard from Harvard, an elite college better known as a springboard to the U.S. presidency than to basketball success,...". There's probably a way to work something in here with reliable sources, and more will be coming. As long as it's sourced by good sources, anything is possible. Doc talk 07:39, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Another "White House" comparison. Personally I didn't make the comparison myself when first learning he went to Harvard, simply because I thought it was well-known that Harvard produces more intellectuals than athletes. But, I don't have anything against mentioning it in the article, but I think it'd be a bit tough to fit it in somewhere appropriate without making it seem like a bit of trivia and nothing more substantial than that. Gary King (talk · scripts) 06:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No need to mention it - it's a factoid about Harvard, not Lin. de Bivort 06:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If Lin continues streak, soon they will be comparing him to Barack Obama himself - he is to the US sporting world as Obama was to politics. An incredibly unlikely, successful guy who beats all the odds (and is from a different race). Colipon+(Talk) 07:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can't wait to see how he meshes with Stoudemire when he comes back, and then Anthony returns in a couple of weeks. Lin works great with Chandler already on the pick and roll. Love it! Doc talk 08:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of Asian-American Players

I have a problem with this sentence: "Asian Americans who had played in the NBA prior to the 2010–11 NBA season include Wataru Misaka, Raymond Townsend, Corey Gaines, Rex Walters, and Robert Swift." Lin's race is only important since people perceive him as "Asian". While the term "Asian-American" can refer to all Americans with known Asian descent; does anyone really look at for example Robert Swift (1/4 Japanese) or Corey Gaines (1/4 Japanese) and think "this is an Asian"? Think of it this way, would most of these players listed here check the box "Asian" on the US Census? My guess is no; however I'm sure Lin would. I propose we change this to "The only other full-blooded Asian Americans who had played in the NBA was Wataru Misaka who played in the late 1940s." Neuyyar (talk) 22:23, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No original research. 198.151.130.68 (talk) 22:29, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The "Full-blooded" argument has already been discussed previously when people were debating whether or not he was the First Asian-American to begin with. However, only way to prove that he is "Full-Blooded" is to show his DNA results. If you don't have that, then there are no facts or sources.
According to your argument; if we don't have DNA results, none of the players listed could be proven to be Asian-American. That's absurd. 71.238.154.244 (talk) 06:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually that's not really accurate. Asian-American is a social construct and based off of geographical classification. There are enough definitions and sources that define what it means to be Asian-American in the U.S., just look up Race and ethnicity in the United States article on Wikipedia. It's clearly defined and sourced and Jeremy Lin fits that classification. However, using the term "Full-Blood" would refer to purity, his actual genetics - DNA results. Then you have to take into account that there are even arguments from Taiwanese to claim that they're not exactly Chinese because they mixed with aboriginals, as compared to mainland Chinese. If you're going to refer to him as a "Full-blooded" Asian-American, whose to say someone won't try to add "Full-Blooded" Chinese, then someone will argue "No he's Taiwanese" etc. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 19:07, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter if it can't be proven. There is a source. [14] I doubt any of the reporters actually researched every NBA players' ancestry to make these nth of a certain descent claims. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. 198.151.130.69 (talk) 09:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I imagine no reputable source has used "full blooded" as how can one know the ethnicity of every ancestor.—Bagumba (talk) 06:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reputable sources make false or unbased claims all the time. Wikipedia isn't about truth. 174.252.26.176 (talk) 09:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. It's not about truth: it is about verifiability from reliable sources. If we write any statement/conclusion based on "full-blooded Asian-Americans in the NBA" and it is not properly referenced, it is most likely original research. If a reliable source (and ideally more than one RS) mentions the only two full-blooded A-A's, it could probably be introduced. Without a reference, it may be true, but we can't represent it as "true" enough to publish here. How else would we accurately determine that it were true unless we could show where we got it? Or did somebody just make it up out of the blue? We would need a source for the "full-blooded" thing. Doc talk 14:05, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Minor Edit

One sentence in the article says, "Smart planned to take pressure off Lin..." Since that was the first mention of Smart, it should probably say, "Golden State head coach Keith Smart" so people know who he is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.170.246 (talk) 10:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, done. Zagalejo^^^ 20:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 13 February 2012

Please add to "Public Image" Section:

In April 2011, Mochi Magazine, an online publication for Asian Americans, named Lin as one of their top 25 influential Asian Americans under 25 years old.

Source: http://www.mochimag.com/2011/04/asian-american-stars-young-esther-chang-yin-clara-chung-david-choi-nigahiga-youtube/

Meigga (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Done --andy4789 ★ · (talk? contribs?) 00:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it. The poll should be reported in an independent source if it was notable. Dont see much press on the magazine in general either.—Bagumba (talk) 02:20, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Any photos of Lin in a Knicks uniform?

Anyone got a photo of Lin in a Knicks uniform? I added File:Jeremy Lin jump shot.jpg but then immediately noticed the tag in the bottom-left corner, so it's probably a copyvio. I've asked around on Flickr for some people to change their photos' licenses, so hopefully I get a response. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, it's a copy from http://i2.sinaimg.cn/ty/k/p/2012-02-11/U2490P6T12D5939037F44DT20120211170317.jpg Its been uploaded a few times assumingly because it is on someone's Flickr account with falsified copyrights.—Bagumba (talk) 19:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting that the image from Sina itself doesn't have the Sina watermark. Gary King (talk · scripts) 19:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So I notify Flickr (Yahoo) about this photo, and they want from me: "A statement by you, ***made under penalty of perjury,*** that the information provided in your notice is accurate and that you are the copyright or intellectual property owner or authorized to act on the copyright or intellectual property owner's behalf." So much for corporations being diligent about complaints.—Bagumba (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh well, there are plenty of copyrighted images on Flickr. Not really worth the fight. On the bright side, I got a photo in the article now. I spent time playing around with image sizes and crops and I think I got a good image out of it. You can check the image's history to see the other crops I did, but I think this is best because I don't like tall images in the infobox since it has lots of whitespace on the sides. In addition, adding some people around him adds a bit of context, such as whether it was taken during a game or after it, etc. On a side note, looks like Lin's article got twice the number of views that Tebow got on a single day (800,000 views for Lin on one day vs. about 400,000 for Tebow). Gary King (talk · scripts) 20:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is the Wikipedia article traffic statistics for Linsanity—Chris!c/t 21:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
epic! de Bivort 22:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why Lin was overlooked?

This NYT article offers some reasons why he was overlooked. Not sure how to put that in.—Chris!c/t 23:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 14 February 2012

Jeremy Lin is Taiwanese-American. Not "Chinese or Taiwanese".


173.54.13.153 (talk) 00:47, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be no request here, but we cannot change it as you have proposed, besides the political POV aspects, he is of chinese descent, as has been discussed extensively. de Bivort 01:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: I think the policy for hyphen-American is that a person is whatever they choose to self-identify as. The current sentence seems neutral as it includes him in the group of all people "of Chinese or Taiwanese descent." Thanks, Celestra (talk) 01:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

California Player of the Year

Sports blogger John Paulsen (Twitter: @4for4_John) was pointing out Lin was Northern CA Division II POY - but not player of the year for the whole state. This seems credible since Mr. Basketball for 2006 was Chase Budinger per the wiki entry <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Mr._Basketball#cite_note-6> and another independent source <http://basketball.realgm.com/highschool/awards/2/18>. Not sure what is needed to overturn the Dana O'Neil reference used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.63.176 (talk) 03:42, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request, please delete sentence - According to Dana O'Neil of ESPN, "... Lin was the runaway choice for player of the year by virtually every California publication." The context of the sentence infers that JLin was California State Player of the Year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.63.176 (talk) 04:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The existing quote does say "by virtually every California publication", so its not incorrect. Most awards are usually regional. Still, would probably be better to itemize the specific ones in an "Honors" section. There's probably a lot of regional college awards he won too.—Bagumba (talk) 04:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Does the O'Neil quote really add much? It's better to mention specific accolades, rather than a journalist's summary of those accolades. Zagalejo^^^ 05:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about trying to delete my request above. New to editing Wikipedia. Just figured since this request was being shot down, just wanted to delete it so I wouldn't have to think about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.63.176 (talk) 07:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Zagalejo above. The very next line in the article summarizes everything: “He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year...”

Hypothetical... to help bring into focus. Suppose there are 40 California publications. Let's say 21 chose Chase Budinger as POY. And by the slimmest margin, Lin gets 19 picks for POY. So even in the closest vote, would that constitute a “runaway choice for player of the year by virtually every California publication”?

The problem is the inexact journalism in O'Neil's piece itself. Looks like someone just scanned J-Lin's Harvard bio page and put that sentence together. Doesn't sound like a journalist sitting there, figuring out how many California publications there are in totality in the whole state, then seeing if each one picked a HS POY, then tallying each player chosen, and then formulating, J-Lin was a runaway choice for POY (but still somehow balloted behind Budinger).

Not trying to be critical. I think this Wiki article on Lin is great. Just think that sentence detracts from the whole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.63.176 (talk) 01:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Linsanity article?

After today's game, with Lin's buzzer beating 3-pointer to carry the team, Linsanity may well be notable enough for an article in its own right. All the news networks in the US have now covered it as a 'phenomenon'. Major publications to write about it include The Economist, the New York Times, Forbes, Businessweek, Washington Post, Time, The Atlantic etc. etc. The article could potentially discuss many things:

  1. Marketing and business potential
  2. Spike in ticket sales and prices in home and away games
  3. Race and ethnicity
  4. Effect in Asia
  5. Backlash
  6. The abundance of media coverage itself.

Colipon+(Talk) 03:11, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Heck, at the rate we're going, we could probably support several spinout articles. Zagalejo^^^ 03:48, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the sentiment but if this waited until next month it'll less likely to be put up for a deletion review. The redirect should do for now.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:08, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone think Linsanity or Jeremy Lin deserves a place in the Cultures and Lore section in {{New York Knicks}}? — MT (talk) 04:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I usually thing of that section as fancruft, but that is another story.—Bagumba (talk) 19:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think we can grow this article and spinout only when it gets too large or become irrelevant to his bio. So far, I dont see that.—Bagumba (talk) 19:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 15 February 2012

... and the first American player in the league to be of Chinese or Taiwanese descent.[1] ... This is not the case for Chinese, perhaps for Taiwanese.

98.200.237.140 (talk) 03:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there another US-born Chinese to play in the NBA?--Brian Dell (talk) 03:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See "Edit request on 14 February 2012" de Bivort 03:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The source for the current text reads "Lin, whose parents are from Taiwan, is the N.B.A.’s first American-born player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent." If you have a source which refutes this, please provide it. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 04:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

change Shu-How to Shuhao

The article currently says the subject's name is "Jeremy Shu-How Lin" but Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) says that for "Names of people" the "Romanization of names" should be "written in Hanyu Pinyin" unless "the subject of the article is likely to prefer a non-pinyin romanization." I understand his parents are 中国台湾人 but his statement "I'm really proud of being Chinese" implies that he is unlikely to object to a pinyin romanization. Absence evidence of a such an objection the Wikipedia style guide says

pinyin spacing and capitalization conventions should be used. This includes keeping the family name separate and the given name capitalized... given names [with] more than one syllable... are never [to be separated] by spacing, hyphenization, or capitalization."

Applying this policy would mean changing "Shu-How" to "Shuhao."--Brian Dell (talk) 07:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You quoted it yourself: if the subject "is likely to prefer a non-pinyin romanization" that's what should be used. What better evidence of what the the subject "is likely to prefer" do you want than the style he has actually been using? To try to infer from the fact that he's proud of being Chinese what his preferred romanization style might be is rather silly. 74.65.209.104 (talk) 12:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can't romanize a person who has a legal name in English already. According to California's birth records, his middle name is Shu How (maybe with or without a hyphen, the "H" capitalized or not). WP:NC-CHINA absolutely does not apply. HkCaGu (talk) 12:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Needs shortening

Moved to Talk:Jeremy Lin § Length

This article is grotesquely long. 74.65.209.104 (talk) 12:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think it's fine. About half is references anyways. de Bivort 17:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Grotesquely long"? Seriously? I've seen longer articles than this. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 18:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 15 February 2012


Chemist43615 (talk) 17:51, 15 February 2012 (UTC) Jeremy Lin is not the first NBA player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent. Yao Ming [15] is.[reply]

 Not done: The article is correct in saying that: "Jeremy Lin is the first American player in the league to be of Chinese or Taiwanese descent." This means that Lin is the first Chinese-American/Taiwanese-American in the NBA. — MT (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FAQ about Lin's nationality/racial heritage.

Perhaps we should have a FAQ section here like Talk:Barack Obama. We don't want people starting similar editing requests regarding his nationality/racial heritage. Also it is easier to refer to when people ask these questions.—Chris!c/t 20:10, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes; one of the items in the FAQ should say that Lin identifies both as Chinese American and as Taiwanese American, and that neither designation should be removed. These supporting links were posted in an earlier discussion.[16][17] Shrigley (talk) 21:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
FAQ started. Here is one explain why Yao is not the first American of Chinese descent.—Bagumba (talk) 22:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early Life

I don't think that discussing where his grandparents are from is necessary since it is clearly labelled "Early life" as in Jeremy's early life and not where his grandparents are originally from... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonynz (talk • contribs) 21:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where his grandparents are originally from is certainly related to Jeremy's early life.—Chris!c/t 21:50, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all, it's about HIS early life and not where his grandparents are from. Talking about his parents would be sufficient. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonynz (talk • contribs) 22:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since his maternal grandmother's family was tall, the side in China is worth mentioning. Its in the NYT article "In China, Lin Is a Star and a Symbol" that is already there. As for his Taiwanese grandparents, they can go to "Personal life" section unless they were influential in his early life.—Bagumba (talk) 23:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's more than enough stuff written in an excessively breathless, fan-like tone that can be removed without started to delete material that certain groups like mainland China officials have sought to emphasize, like these particular facts. There is considerable interest in this person's family heritage.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan and China claiming Lin as "their own"

To those who have wanted to remove either Taiwanese or Chinese from the article, I propose that they consider collaborating to present both sides neutrally in the article. The Wall Street Journal wrote about the debate.—Bagumba (talk) 08:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We should't base one person's opinion from one article as the bible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.244.197.164 (talk) 10:13, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Opinions from reliable sources should always be attributed with due weight applied. Not sure why anyone would limit themselves to one opinion in one article. There's 160+ citations in this article at this point.—Bagumba (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I want to remove them from the lead, which is a different idea. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 04:29, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can Jeremy speak Taiwanese Hokkien better than Mandarin?

I think part of the question is if Jeremy is able to speak Taiwanese Hokkien better than Mandarin. Did his ama (Taiwanese Hokkien term for grandmother) teach him Taiwanese Hokkien as the second language and Mandarin later became the third language?

Consider this following article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/lins-grandmother-watches-quietly-from-taiwan-as-press-hounds-her-home/article2340230/

The author of this article does make it clear that "She diapered and fed him and, as he grew up, cooked big batches of fried rice with dried turnips and egg, a Taiwanese favorite." Therefore, the ama did provide a traditional Taiwanese upbrining. Unforunately, the author didn't ask the critical question that I'm asking here. A distinguishing feature of many Taiwanese Americans who were born in the United States is that they learned Taiwanese Hokkien rather than Mandarin as a second language. Janet Hsieh, an American-born Taiwanese who became a host of a travel TV show, struggled with her Mandarin for a while because she learned Taiwanese Hokkien first. Allentchang (talk) 16:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That G&M story is a shorter version of the original New York Times article which points out that although his paternal grandmother is seventh-generation Taiwanese (and thus presumably spoke to her grandson in Hokkien), Jeremy Lin's mother was born and raised by someone who was born and raised on the mainland and to this day is "still fond of mainland China." Someone's language is usually more influenced by his mother than by his father's grandmother. That said, we are both speculating here and Wikipedia does not allow claims supported by WP:original research to go into the article.--Brian Dell (talk) 18:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not our job to figure out whether he is more taiwanese or more chinese. Our job is to take information from reliable sources and reproduce it here with appropriate weighting. Everything else is original research. de Bivort 19:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive detail for this topic?

Moved to Talk:Jeremy Lin § Length

I realize Lin has been the subject of a lot of hype the past few weeks, and people are excited about him, but I think the amount of detail in this article is excessive for someone who is still, in essence, an up-and-coming player. To put it in context, the word count is longer than Magic Johnson's wiki article, about one and a half times the length of Yao Ming's, and is approaching the length of Michael Jordan's.

We don't need detailed stats of every NBA game Lin has played typed out in paragraph form to understand who he is and what is notable about him. Let's try applying some conciseness here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.180.81 (talk) 17:04, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think WP:OTHERSTUFF in this case is not a good example; knowing those two fairly well, neither has enough detail beyond their awards and stats they had every year. That being said, I think the Warriors section can be cleaned some, as his NY career should have more weight at this point. For details related to this year, there is a discussion at Talk:Jeremy_Lin#Linsanity_article.3F regarding a spinout of "Linsanity". Years from now people will want to know what triggered this, and details of the first week will be entirely relevant. Fernandomania, which some have compared this to, does not discuss much beyond the fact that a phenomena existed and here are Valnezuela's season ending stats. Finally, there is no deadline, and IMO it's easier to cut out material or spin it out than it is to research it later. That in part is why articles on HOF players like Magic will probably always be quite general.—Bagumba (talk) 18:12, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This has been mentioned a few times before already. My personal view is that yes, it may perhaps be long (I agree that it's a legitimate concern but not one that I personally share), but we should wait until at least the end of the season to provide some perspective on all of this so we know what to cut, etc. My suspicion is that every upcoming game will have less and less detail in the article, unless something exceptional happens like a buzzer-beater. Gary King (talk · scripts) 20:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. While it seems like "every game" is being detailed, it's because a career-high or first was happening every game. Assumingly this will happen less now he's established some decent highs and Amare and Carmelo are back.—Bagumba (talk) 20:44, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fun to note that the page got about 800,000 during/after the Lakers game and 500,000 views during/after the Raptors buzzer-beater. Those two are by far the biggest spikes that the article has had so far. In comparison, guys like Kobe and Lebron get about 25,000 to 50,000 views a day on average. Gary King (talk · scripts) 01:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you look back, the article was already long even before his exploit with the Knicks. Anyway, I agree that the Warriors' section can be shortened. — MT (talk) 03:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese State-run Media Censorship of Jeremy Lin

Information on the Chinese state-run media with regards to Jeremy Lin. Could also be included in the article on Media of the People's Republic of China. http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/more-family-fun/201202/jeremy-lins-suprising-basketball-coach http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/knicks-star-jeremy-lin-rules-social-media-ignored-by-china-broadcaster.php 198.151.130.72 (talk) 23:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Taiwanese basketball players" category

The rationale that was given for reverting this category was "Jeremy Lin is not a Taiwanese citizen" and that is not, in fact, correct. For most countries, if a person is born outside of the physical territory of that country he or she is still presumed a citizen if his or her parents are citizens at the time of birth. That means that Jeremy Lin holds automatic (is not applied for) dual citizenship, something Taiwan has confirmed. It's true that he's never applied for a Taiwan passport, but Arnold Schwarzenegger is a dual citizen without an Austrian passport and all the applicable Austrian categories are applied to his bio as well as the American ones. There is no evidence that Jeremy Lin has renounced his Taiwan citizenship.--Brian Dell (talk) 00:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With this race for China and Taiwan to call Lin their own, I'd hold off on this until Lin acknowledges he is a citizen.—Bagumba (talk) 00:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jeremy Lin is neither a Chinese nor a Taiwanese citizen. This has been documented. Even though a nation has made citizenship available to a person, that does not mean that the person is a citizen of that nation: "Both of Jeremy Lin’s parents were born in Taiwan and retain dual citizenship in Taiwan and the United States, Lin Chi Chung said. Jeremy Lin was born in California and has American citizenship but has been offered dual citizenship in Taiwan as well by the foreign ministry here, his uncle added."[18] Being offered citizenship and accepting it are two very different things. NYCRuss ☎ 00:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jeremy Lin's uncle is not a reliable source on the finer points of citizenship law. As the United States government notes: "Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice." In this case, the government of Taiwan has made it clear that Lin is automatically a citizen under their laws. Fact is, "You are a dual citizen if you are recognized by more than one country as a citizen. In some cases, you may not be aware that you are a citizen of another country." As a matter of law, Jeremy Lin does not have a choice to accept although he does have a choice to reject by renouncing. "Offered" here is likely best understood as meaning that for practical and public relations purposes Taiwan would not enforce the law applicable to its citizens on Jeremy Lin against his will, e.g. by trying to draft him. Absent a reliable source indicating he renounced he remains a dual citizen. This doesn't automatically mean that the "Taiwanese basketball players" category is appropriate to add here, but it does mean that you need a different rationale for rejecting the application of this category.--Brian Dell (talk) 02:02, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:RS, "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context." In the context of posturing over calling Lin theirs, I don't find this very reliable. I would want multiple independent sources or just Lin himself stating he is a citizen of Taiwan. We need to be conservative for WP:BLP. Piecing together sources that dont directly say he is a citizen is a bit of WP:OR.—Bagumba (talk) 02:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Verifiability, not truth. The source given by Brian Dell claims that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs says that Lin is a citizen. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 04:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the full text at WP:V says "whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." The intent is there needs to be verifiable information not in someones head (i.e WP:OR). It did not mean to put verifiable information that is false or dubious. If it is true, considering the subject, it shouldnt be long before other news sources report it as well, no?—Bagumba (talk) 07:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unless he says he has formally renounced his citizenship, Lin himself is not a reliable source, given that one can be a citizen while being ignorant of the fact. If anyone disputes this, explain why the Foreign Affairs Canada website that states this is unreliable. Citizenship is determined by whether a country recognizes someone as one of their citizens, not the individual's choice. If anyone disputes this, explain why the State Department website that states this is unreliable. In this case the country of Taiwan is of the view that Jeremy Lin is a citizen. If anyone disputes this, explain why the Central News Agency (Republic of China) is unreliable, and why, if it's believed that its reporting is unreliable, the story was also carried by the Taiwan News? It is impossible to have multiple sources other than the government of Taiwan because it is this government's law that makes him a Taiwan citizen. If one wants to (dubiously) generalize the reliability question to a whole country, the United States is also "calling Lin theirs." Does that mean that there is any doubt about whether he is a US citizen? The cited source here directly says "Jeremy Lin has Taiwanese citizenship," citing the sole party with authority to determine the issue. The reporter here is not citing a local fan (unlike the NYT story mentioned in this thread). You can ask anyone you like if I am a Canadian citizen or not, including myself, but ultimately the only authority on the question of my Canadian citizenship is Canada's ministry of foreign affairs. As the anonymous editor interjected, whether it's "true" or not is really not our issue. I have indeed added "See also" information but I did that in anticipation of the inaccurate original research which believes that citizenship is determined by what the citizen (or someone other than a national government) says.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:55, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a conflicting source from AFP. "Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesman James Chang (章計平) yesterday said in response to media inquiries that there was no record of Jeremy Lin ever applying for ROC citizenship ... Chang denied that the ministry had offered Jeremy Lin ROC citizenship, saying it was up to the basketball star to apply for it." We will need multiple sources to sort out the conflicting info. Multiple sites carrying the same CNA article is not a different source.—Bagumba (talk) 07:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, "Thomas Chen, director-general of the Bureau of Consular Affairs under the MOFA", in the article linked by Brian Dell, trumps James Chang, spokesman of the MOFA. I think the spokesman was, at that moment, confusing citizenship with a passport. Also, the way I understand citizenship working in most places (including Taiwan if we trust Chen) is that a person whose claim to citizenship is through parentage has that citizenship automatically by law; they'd never need to apply for it. Thus the citizen themselves (and their uncle) might not even be aware of their own citizenship. M-1 (talk) 07:46, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The AFP article addressed citizenship directly and denied it: "Even though Jeremy Lin has US citizenship, he is eligible for ROC citizenship because both of his parents retain ROC citizenship and because Taiwan allows dual citizenship, he said. Chang denied that the ministry had offered Jeremy Lin ROC citizenship, saying it was up to the basketball star to apply for it." It would be better to get an official acknowledgement and correction on either statement, instead of assuming correctness based on a person's title. Multiple sources would also make this more reliable. This isnt a game score we are reporting, and this is a BLP.—Bagumba (talk) 07:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Republic of China nationality law has no provision for citizenship. Jeremy Lin is a ROC national (not citizen as he is a national without household registration). I think the Taipei Times article is factually incorrect due to news editors using the wrong terms in translating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs news conference from Chinese to English. Here is the same content as it is presented in Taiwanese news sources:

  • "外交部發言人章計平在昨天（16日）的記者會上表示，申請中華民國護照是國人的權利，由於林書豪父母都有中華民國國籍,因此他當然符合申請資格。但要不要申請，還要視他本人的意願來決定" My translation: "In a news conference given yesterday (Feb. 16), Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesman James Chang stated that applying for a Republic of China passport is a right of nationals. Because both of Jeremy Lin's parents are Republic of China nationals, he definitely meets the qualifications to apply for a passport. But whether the application is to be submitted depends upon his personal intentions." http://www.nownews.com/2012/02/17/301-2786394.htm
  • "外交部發言人章計平指出，申請中華民國護照是國人權利，林書豪父母都有中華民國國籍，林書豪符合申請資格，但須由本人提出，外交部不會主動辦理。按現行兵役法相關規定，林書豪若持中華民國護照入境、滯台超過一百八十三天，就算在國內無戶籍，也會收到兵役徵集通知。" My translation: "Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesman James Chang mentioned that applying for a Republic of China passport is a right of nationals. Jeremy Lin's parents are both Republic of China nationals, so he meets the application requirements. However, an application must be initiated by Lin himself - the Ministry will not automatically issue a passport to him. Under current conscription regulations, if Jeremy Lin uses his Republic of China to enter Taiwan, and stays for over 183 days, he will receive his draft notice, even if he does not have household registration." http://udn.com/NEWS/SPORTS/SPOS9/6906363.shtml

Quite clearly, the sources talk about applying for a passport, not citizenship. The Taipei Times/AFP mis-translated "application for a Republic of China passport" to "application for Republic of China citizenship." Under nationality laws he already possesses nationality under jus sanguinis. The question posed by government officials is whether he wants to exercise it. By stating that applying for a passport is right for anyone possessing nationality, and that Lin is entitled to apply for one, the MOFA reaffirms rather than contradicts the CNA article. --Jiang (talk) 08:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"He is the first NBA player with at least 20 points and seven assists in his first four starts."

It should be "each of his first four starts": otherwise it sounds like a total for all four. 72.241.215.121 (talk) 01:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done, changed the words a little bit. — MT (talk) 02:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox with Name Translations

This infobox is extremely unnecessary and adds to the clutter of the article. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 04:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it isn't in an infobox it should be at the top of the article. This is actually very important because to search for mainland sources you need to know what the name is in simplified Chinese and for Hong Kong and Taiwan sources you need to have the name in traditional characters. You will need the pronunciation as well if you are to recognize when his name is mentioned by a Chinese speaker, such as some of this subject's immediate family. Without the infobox, readers may conclude that "Shu-How" is just his "middle name" without understanding that this is also his Chinese first name. Finally, there is also no general Wikipedia policy against the inclusion of non-English characters.--Brian Dell (talk) 05:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a translator. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 09:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a translation, it's just an information about how his Chinese name is written in different characters (simplified and traditional), how his name is romanized, and how to pronounce the name. It's a standard on a lot of Chinese-related article, see I. M. Pei or Michelle Kwan as an example. In other languages, a person's name in its native spelling is also often mentioned in the lead, for example Andrei Kirilenko's lead says: "Andrei Gennadyevich Kirilenko (Russian: Андрей Геннадьевич Кириленко; born 18 February 1981)". Furthermore, it's better to have them in the infobox rather than put them in the lead like few days ago, when the lead was written like this:
Jeremy Shu-How Lin (traditional Chinese: 林書豪; simplified Chinese: 林书豪; pinyin: Lín Shūháo; Pe̍h-ōe-jī: Lîm Su-hô; born August 23, 1988) is an American professional basketball player with the New York Knicks of the National Basketball Association (NBA).
In this case, the infobox reduce clutter in the lead. — MT (talk) 10:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I. M. Pei was born as his name in Chinese. I. M. is not even a translation of his first name. It is just what he is commonly known as. If you look at the talk page of the Michelle Kwan article, you will see that the inclusion of the infobox is heavily questioned.
"In other languages, a person's name in its native spelling is also often mentioned in the lead". Jeremy Lin's name in the California birth index is "Jeremy Shuhow Lin". That would be the "native spelling". 198.151.130.73 (talk) 12:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In Michelle Kwan's article, the Chinese characters and its romanization (in the lead, not as infobox) has been there since the article was created in 2002. Even though it was disputed in 2006 and 2007, the discussion does not lead to the removal of her Chinese name. Furthermore, since that discussion, no one bother to remove or at least discuss the existence of Kwan's Chinese name, until 1 editor questioned it in 2011. And in that last discussion, 3 other editors supported the inclusion of her Chinese name. I don't think you could say that this is heavily questioned. Lin's Chinese name has been here for more than two years and so far only you disputed its existence.
On your second point, you are just ignorant, 林書豪/林书豪/Lín Shūháo is the native spelling of Shu-How Lin. Plenty of Greek Americans has the Greek spelling of their names mentioned in the lead even though a lot of them were born in the U.S. with English names.
Anyway, you never mentioned your reason why his Chinese name is unnecessary. There is no visible clutter since it was already moved from the lead into a collapsible infobox. How does the existence of his Chinese name hurt this article? I did not see any strong argument yet on why it should be removed. — MT (talk) 17:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion in the Michelle Kwan article goes from Feb. 2006 to Feb. 2012, so it is still ongoing. You are the one that is ignorant. Do you even know what native means? Lin's name in other language sources is irrelevant at this point. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 18:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is a proposed guideline at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Use of Chinese language. I have no strong opinion on this either way.—Bagumba (talk) 18:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't see any argument why it should be removed. Brian Dell has several arguments that including Lin's Chinese name is important. Please elaborate why it's unnecessary and irrelevant. Kwan's discussion is still ongoing but so far there are more editors who don't have any problem with her Chinese name and there is still no consensus to remove the Chinese characters. — MT (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Lin himself has used his Chinese name on his jersey when he played in China, see the details in #Edit request on 9 February 2012 section and the related image. — MT (talk) 18:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is irrelevant because Wikipedia is not a translation service. Brian Dell said it was important to understand non-english sources, but that is not a good reason to include it in the article. There are many non-english sources on many Wikipedia article topics, but it would be ridiculous to have a list translations of the name of every article in each article. Having a Chinese name on a jersey is does not make it relevant. http://portalcmspic.sz2011.org/pic//2010/12/18/81e30545e78d4f2386f911de3720ef68/GplovbgeuOBkBdCGokzJDHnoBOzPkxVN.jpg Not even the article on Stephon Marbury has a Chinese name in an infobox. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 19:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry you've just disqualified yourself from the discussion. It's not a translation. Unless you understand the basic nature of the Chinese language and how names are handled, you do not understand the issue. HkCaGu (talk) 20:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You see his Chinese names in sources. They translate to Lin Shu-How, which is what the sources use to refer to Lin. If even some of them don't translate to Lin Shu-How, they are still being equated to Lin, which would be a translation. The infobox itself is titled "Jeremy Lin". No need to argue the semantics of the word "translation". 198.151.130.73 (talk) 23:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We are not talking about "every article", we are talking about this one (which has lots of Chinese sources). I think there are interesting differences between the motivation of providing Chinese characters for names that were originally in Chinese, versus Chinese for English names. It's in an infofox, out of the lead, so I'm not inclined to worry about it either way. As there is widespread examples were Chinese is provided in articles, you might want to pursue this at Wikipedia:Village pump for a wider audience.—Bagumba (talk) 21:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How many sources for each of the dialects in the infobox does this article even use? I can claim that "Jeremy" was originally from Hebrew, but that would be original research. If I were to find a bunch of non-english sources for Jeremy Lin, that would not be justification for inclusion of a bunch of translations for those sources. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 00:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article has a lot of material on the order of "It was Asian Heritage Night for the Warriors' home game, and Lin received a standing ovation from the crowd of 17,408 when he entered the game with 2:32 remaining in the fourth quarter" which really should be deleted and instead someone's going on about the infobox which takes up little space? If there is too much "Asian" stuff the "Asian Heritage Night" stuff should be cut before the much more useful infobox. Mark Roswell is not at all Chinese and his birth name is Mark Roswell, yet his Chinese name is not just given but Mark Roswell redirects to his Chinese name. Re the relevance of Roswell living in China, Jeremy Lin has said "I'm going to be [in Taiwan] every summer." Go make the "not a translation service" over at that the Roswell article and see if the consensus agrees with a demand for English only.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
大山 is not a translation of Mark Roswell's birth name. It is a stage name. "Dashan" is what he is commonly known as in English. You keep giving examples of things that are translated to English from non-english, instead of the other way around 198.151.130.73 (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Jeremy" would be translated as "杰里米" or Jié lǐ mǐ. That is not given here because the "translations" here that you are objecting to here are also not "translations" per se but rather renderings of the subject's Chinese name. Where's your evidence that Mark isn't called Mark when he's out with English speaking friends or otherwise in an English speaking community? Why have you suddenly adopted an international perspective on 大山 while calling for an English only perspective here? The bottom line is that the consensus does not support your obsession with this issue.--Brian Dell (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dashan is his stage name (大山) translated to English. It is what he is commonly known as because that is the title of the article. 大山 is not in English, which is why it is translated. If you believe he is more commonly called Mark, then you may request a name change for the article, but his stage name is still originally in Chinese. Lin is commonly known as Jeremy Lin, hence the name of the article. His full name (Jeremy Shu-How Lin) is already in English, so there is no need to translate it to English. You say renderings of the subject's name in Chinese sources is important to understand the sources (which would be equating it to Lin, which would be like a translation), but I say that it is irrelevant. Putting translations of his name in Chinese is not the proper way to provide an English translation of the sources. 198.151.130.73 (talk) 00:42, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, 林書豪 (Lín Shūháo) is not a translation of Shu-How Lin, it's how his name is written in Chinese. Is Γεώργιος Στεφανόπουλος a translation of George Stephanopoulos? No, it's how his name is written in Greek. Those names are written in other language in relation to their ancestry and their relation to the countries and the languages. This is different from Stephon Marbury's case where 斯蒂芬·马布里 (Sīdìfēn mǎbùlǐ) is a translation of his English name. Marbury's Chinese name doesn't exists until he played in China, while Lin's middle name exists since he was born. Lin's middle name, Shu-How, came directly from his Chinese name, but you can't have "Jeremy 書豪 林" in American birth certificate, so his parents romanized it to "Jeremy Shu-How Lin". In my opinion, this is why it's important to have his Chinese name listed, because unlike most Chinese Americans who only have English names, Lin's parents decided to adopt his Chinese name as a legal middle name. — MT (talk) 03:03, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you talking about translation, then Jeremy Shu-How Lin is translated as 杰里米·書豪·林 (Jiélǐmǐ Shūháo Lín). He could've wear either that or 杰里米·林 (Jiélǐmǐ Lín) on his Dongguan Leopards shirt, but he chose to drop his English given name in favor of his Chinese name. He also changed it to 林書豪 (Lín Shūháo) in order to follow Chinese name format (Family name–given name). — MT (talk) 05:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Every famous person has a name written in Chinese... 174.252.24.110 (talk) 10:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We're talking about this case which is a person of Chinese descent with a Chinese name. —Bagumba (talk) 16:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So? Every famous person has a Chinese name. 174.252.20.29 (talk) 12:06, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A name translated into Chinese is not a Chinese name. As long as you do not understand the tonal and non-alphabet nature of the Chinese language, you will not understand the relevance. HkCaGu (talk) 15:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please stay on topic. 174.252.5.15 (talk) 19:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request: Intro section

Resolved
 – Mention of NY turnaround added to lead.—Bagumba (talk) 19:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The introductory section before the table of contents fails to mention one of the primary reasons why Jeremy Lin is notable, namely his recent winning streak with the Knicks. That streak is not currently mentioned until far down in the article. I don't know enough about basketball to make the relevant edits. --Dylan Thurston (talk) 08:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. This should definitely be in the lead! de Bivort 21:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

more about Harvard

I would like to know more about Lin's Harvard experience. What was his major? Did any of the courses there make a notable impression on him? Was there anything notable about his experience in Cambridge Mass.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.144 (talk) 16:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well-known for majoring in economics. He had a GPA of 3.1. He doesn't seem to talk much about his school experiences, except for his time on the team, which isn't surprising. Surely his basketball took an important role for him while he was there, not that academics didn't, but basketball was probably on his mind a lot. There are some articles from people who have played with him while at Harvard, including some posts at Quora. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 19 February 2012

Edit request, please delete this sentence in the high school section: According to Dana O'Neil of ESPN, "... Lin was the runaway choice for player of the year by virtually every California publication." Chase Budinger was California Mr. Basketball in 2006: <http://basketball.realgm.com/highschool/awards/2/18> 50.53.63.176 (talk) 00:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The phrase "virtually every" is not made false by one negative example and, more improtantly, the fact that Dana O'Neil said it is reliably sourced. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 01:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But why should we care what Dana O'Neil says? As I said in a discussion above, we should stick to specific facts, not a journalist's vague (and questionable) summary of the facts. Zagalejo^^^ 07:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Prior discussion. Zagalejo^^^ 07:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Racial issues

Should the title be changed? There is only one race, the human race.1 Portillo (talk) 02:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the world is not perfect. Racism still exists.—Chris!c/t 02:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The section, however, is totally out of hand, and needs a major edit and cleanup to get itself up to standards. (Also, the genome project got the science quite wrong on the topic of whether race exists—though maybe it's better to let that particular bit of misinformation stand.) Gerweck (talk) 05:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How is the section out of hand? It is notable to note the racial issues he faced being Asian-American in major American sports.—Chris!c/t 05:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

mother

The article says that his mother is ethnic Japanese, so shouldn't that also be in the Early Life & Family section? 70.24.251.71 (talk) 09:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're misinterpreting something. The article does talk about Rex Walters' mother, who is Japanese. Zagalejo^^^ 22:59, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

golden state

His Golden State section is far too long and should be shortened accordingly. 76.185.111.45 (talk) 17:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assists as a starter

I see that there are records in the article for most points and turnovers in the first X starts. Is he close to a record for assists?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:00, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think he does, especially since he's a point guard so it's more likely. He definitely is racking up the assists; since Feb. 4, I believe he's second in assist percentage after Steve Nash. I don't have a ref at the moment for the first point, though (the second point can be found at any stats site). Gary King (talk · scripts) 22:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There was a graphic in today's game comparing him to other PGs. Stockton had more in his first X starts. Not sure if he held the record, or it was just for comparison.—Bagumba (talk) 22:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I see graphics for "notable guards" in their first X starts, and since it's not "Guards with most" then I guess Lin isn't at the top, but perhaps close. Gary King (talk · scripts) 03:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 20 February 2012

Change the grammatically incorrect "The Knicks' third-string point" to "As the Knicks' third-string point". 108.28.249.69 (talk) 01:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Done I made the change even though I think the earlier phrase was also grammatically correct. I've heard that construction many times. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 02:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 20 February 2012

Lin is of Taiwanese descent. Not "of Chinese or Taiwanese descent.[1]" as the text reads.

Check reference in article <http://www.webcitation.org/64Im5zrts> or <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/sports/basketball/jeremy-lin-knicks-newest-addition-is-out-to-prove-hes-not-just-a-novelty.html?_r=1> in which text reads "Lin, whose parents are from Taiwan, is the N.B.A.’s first American-born player of Chinese or Taiwanese descent," indicating that he is the first NBA player of either nationality, but is Taiwanese because his parental lineage is traced back to that of Taiwan.


Jtoratoratora (talk) 07:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The entire sentence to which you object is: "Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and the first American player in the league to be of Chinese or Taiwanese descent." Having parent born in Taiwan, he is a member of the the group "of Taiwanese descent" and also of the larger group "of Chinese or Taiwanese descent". There is no confusion about his heritage, just that he is also the first player from that larger group. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 08:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Q2 of the FAQ in the box at the top of this talk page.—Bagumba (talk) 18:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Free Tibet

Tibet is not part of China. Jeremy Lin is Taiwanese, NOT CHINESE. Chinese are no loted in Taiwanese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.0.54 (talk) 07:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan is not China therefore Taiwanese are not Chinese? Ridiculous logic! HkCaGu (talk) 07:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request: Nationality = AMERICAN

Can someone please change his nationality back to AMERICAN? Someone vandalized the article and wrote "taiwanese" after nationality. Think they're confusing nationality with ethnicity... Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.90.40.47 (talk) 15:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you mean? The lead says "the first American player ..." de Bivort 15:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First, the infobox currently indicates only "American" as his nationality. Second, he is legally and technically a dual national (#.22Taiwanese_basketball_players.22_category), but I don't necessarily think this warrants adding "Taiwanese" as his nationality in the infobox.--Jiang (talk) 15:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think he referred to a version of the article that was vandalized where his nationality (in the infobox) was changed to "taiwanese". Anyway, it has been reverted. — MT (talk) 16:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Length

This is absurdly too long. He entered the game with 2:12 left and was cheered. Who Cares ? He is a basketball player, not the messiah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.247.236 (talk) 01:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And no one here is trying to portray him as such however there is pertinent information that needs to be in there. Besides there has been discussion about shortening the Warriors section and half the page is references. No need to be over zealous. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 03:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Article isn't long at about 32 kb of prose. If it grows at this rate, though, of course it would be absurdly long, but as mentioned earlier, it's best to wait until the end of this season so we have a better perspective of this year as a whole. We may ultimately have to split "Linsanity" into its own article. Gary King (talk · scripts) 18:40, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the cultural impact he's having (Tom Brokaw referenced him during the post-debate coverage on MSNBC last night, for instance), 32 kb of prose is appropriate. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've done some trimming on the Warriors section.—Bagumba (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"James Tan" used instead of Jeremy Lin

It seems this article has been defaced by putting the name of someone other than Jeremy Lin in subtitle and above the picture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.9.233.4 (talk) 06:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's been fixed. Good call :> Doc talk 06:27, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal for last sentence of lead

Since the last sentence is disputed over nationality, ethnicity, politics, etc., I think this sentence might better achieve the meaning of the original. The original is: Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and the first American player in the league to be of Chinese or Taiwanese descent.

New proposal is: Lin is one of the few Asian Americans in NBA history, and the first American player in the league whose parents are from Taiwan. Note: "Taiwan" is used as a distinguisher for the place where he is "from", not as a form of political intention. This is the same as saying he or his parents are "Taiwan people" - 台灣人 in Chinese, where 台灣 means Taiwan and 人 means person/people). This distinguishes from 中国人, which means "Chinese national/person", or a "Chinese person from mainland China", rather than the island of Taiwan, and we would not use that here since Jeremy's parents aren't from China (modernly) in this modern perspective that both Chinese mainlanders and Taiwan(ese) people have.

This new proposal is still a bit disputable, but a little more copyediting can remove the political connotations involved in this sentence. Some help is appreciated. - M0rphzone (talk) 06:09, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is the dispute? Please see FAQ (also at top of page). "first American player in the league whose parents are from Taiwan" is original research. While likely, we cant be sure the origin of other players' parents. We don't have sources that make the claim you are trying to make. Perhaps they lived/worked there but never became citizens. "from" doesn't imply nationality, only that they inhabited for a period of time.—Bagumba (talk) 06:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that his parents grew up in Taiwan has been cited numerous times. "Parents from Taiwan" is not original research. I see what you meant by that but your interpretation is not what I'm actually implying and suggesting. It's just a matter of meaning versus actual written depiction. Like I said, this will need some copyediting. This sentence should actually be split, so that the "first American" adjective won't describe his family immigration status/nationality. So instead of "from Taiwan", which is vague, it can be "grew up in" Although, a better meaning could be "parents who grew up in Taiwan" or "whose family is from Taiwan" or even better: "whose parents are immigrants from Taiwan". These are more specific meanings than the original, but still need some copyediting to imply the real meaning without the political connotations that might be implied with insensitive wording. The goal of this is to provide a description without being biased or politically correct and vague. Of course we can just stick with the original vague, politically correct description if no one is willing to take the effort to improve the description. - M0rphzone (talk) 08:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, this interview explains the situation quite well (from the American and Taiwanese perspective). - M0rphzone (talk) 08:22, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

re: your comment of "take the effort to improve the description": For a constructive discussion, please provide specific points that contradict assumptions already outlined in the FAQ. Waving at an IBT article does not prove a point. My interpretation of that article is that China and Taiwan want to claim Lin as "theirs", but such POV does not belong in a lead as he is not a piece of property. While Taiwanese tradition might disregard his maternal side, the article is not written specifically for a Taiwanese audience. A significant number of sources, and Lin himself, make reference to his Chinese heritage. Writing from an "American and Taiwanese perspective" is not neutral.—Bagumba (talk) 19:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Considering you are a third-person POV, I think this is the best compromise then. Original sentence is VAGUE, but neutral and politically correct. - M0rphzone (talk) 22:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand why people want to get rid of "of Chinese descent". The fact is Lin's maternal grandparent is originally from China, so he is of Chinese descent. Any non-neutral change is not an improvement.—Chris!c/t 20:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's mainly from ideas of illegitimate claims. People think that the mainland Chinese are trying to claim and generalize Lin into the overarching Chinese nationality/identity when in fact his family grew up in Taiwan, which made them have different education and ideologies than people from the mainland that went through the state (Chinese Communist Party) education and ideologies. People get the notion that the Chinese (mainlanders) even dare to make claims to Lin like they do to other issues and inventions, achievements, etc. of Chinese diaspora when the achievements aren't even accredited to the modern Chinese (state) and (mainland) people (since many of the notable overseas Chinese did not go through the CCP indoctrinations and (re)education). Many people have the notion that since the (modern) Chinese (mainland) are copycats, piraters, uninnovative, and "thiefs", they don't deserve to make claims to a person whose family comes from Taiwan. Of course when they make the claim that the ancestry is from China, that is obviously true, yet it's a pretty long stretch that many people try to use in order to "justify" these claims and use any sort of reasons and excuses. But since this is modern world, these types of "ancestral" excuses/justifications don't look well to recent immigrant diaspora (not from Chinese mainland) and their achievements. - M0rphzone (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But it really doesn't matter in this modern, increasingly international/standardized world, and of course Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral and politically correct (lol as if it actually is neutral since certain articles attain a slant attributed to the topic as well as the American/English influence and bias). So I guess we will keep the sentence as is since it is politically correct and allows for both claims (btw, political correctness is freaking lame and satire-worthy). - M0rphzone (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"suffered a setback" needs clarification

The second paragraph of the Knicks sections states that Lin "suffered a setback". Makes me wonder if he stepped on a cupcake, failed an exam or lost his wallet. Needs clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.246.6.24 (talk) 17:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It was Baron Davis, not Lin, that suffered a setback due to his herniated disk. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 18:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes

User:Festermunk started to remove all the blockquotes because of non-notability. I agree with his decision on 2 quotes. But on 2 others, I disagreed. The Kobe Bryant quote is a representation of what many players and experts think. Lin's own quote on stereotype is also notable. I want to know what others think.—Chris!c/t 06:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He also doesn't understand how Wikiconsensus works. If a text is disputed and doesn't obviously fail any of the major Wikirules like WP:V, WP:BLP, etc., the default action isn't to remove it; it's to maintain the status quo (whether the text has been removed or not) while it's discussed on Talk.
I also disagree regarding the notability of two of the quotes he's removed. The Foreign Policy quote is from a well-known academic/government journal that is seriously discussing whether Lin could affect US-China relations (!) and whether his rise could be seen by history as more important than a concurrent state visit by China's Vice President (!!). The "Secretariat" quote is notable for discussed in the article body. They're both unusual, interesting, well sourced, and relevant to the discussion. That makes them notable, period. Ylee (talk) 06:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Kudos for bringing this to the talk page. I support the Lin and Bryant quotes. Lin's quote is relevant; there is an AP article on Asian-Americans not being viewed as athletes. Lin's quote is a both a summary of the common perception and his personal response. Bryant is a 14-time All-Star, and many sources after wrote how he was outscored by Lin. His opinion is highly relevant. Per {{quote box}}, it's use "is useful in articles that are short on images and need some graphic-like element, or where an important or interesting quote wants to be presented in a way that sets it off from the surrounding text." Both points seem applicable. the Foreign Policy quote is a prediction of sorts, and the "Secretariat" quote involves a horse some might not be familiar with, so I'm OK with those not being emphasized, but can be in the body.—Bagumba (talk) 06:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Two weeks later, a similar quote from Bryant received coverage. There is some interest in what he says apparently.—Bagumba (talk) 19:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference beck_12292011 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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