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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 194.145.185.229 (talk) at 17:49, 13 March 2012 (→‎Guys, guys... GUYS!! Wait, what). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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When to merge articles into one page

Hey everyone, I just noticed that one of the stubs that I wrote when I first joined up here (a long time ago now), The Powerpuff Girls: Bad Mojo Jojo, was merged into List of The Powerpuff Girls video games. Before being merged, the article looked like this: [1]. I guess my question is, should we encourage these sorts of articles to be merged like this? Or would we rather keep these sort of articles separate in case reliable sources ever pop up for them? I'm not too particularly worried about this case in particular, I was more wondering about what sort of precedent we should look for with regards to stub series articles. Nomader (talk) 15:33, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be a struggle to prescribe either way, as editors have different views and local consensus could and would trump any guideline/preference laid down by the project. My own preference would be to leave the articles as they are, create a list like List of Castlevania media and make sure that all relevant entries are included, separate article or no, rather than do a 'one box' merge and fold bits and bobs of different articles into one. List of Batman video games looked like this before it was converted into a table, although the misc. game articles had been 'tidied up' into a single one it still needed a lot of work before it became readable and ultimately virtually all the games are notable in their own right. But that's just me. The only fly in the ointment is that we're now at the point where it's more difficult to argue that everything will be expanded in time. A lot of console games from the earliest era right through to the PS1/N64/Saturn era don't get touched and in a lot of cases there aren't the online magazine databases to support expansion. Someoneanother 18:14, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
These merges are generally terrible. The Powerpuff article isn't as bad as some, but take a look at List of Terminator video games which I partially unmerged back in 2009 - which has had absolutely no development and all its "excessive" fair use screenshots removed. Here is a discussion in 2009 regarding another merge that I had to right - WT:WikiProject_Video_games/Archive_72#Cleaning_up_List_of_games_based_on_the_Star_Wars_prequel_trilogy.2C_comments_on_a_.22failed_experiment.22. - hahnchen 19:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New source for download games

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just dropping this off here for your perusal. Hookshot Inc. is a new website whose speciality is downloadable video games which cost less than $15 on PC, mobile and the likes of XBLA. The set up is 4 UK games journalists who have worked on the likes of PC Gamer and Edge. Sound familiar? Yeah, it's basically Rock, Paper, Shotgun for download games rather than just PC games. Mobile games seem to have happened without the project taking much notice, finding sources for the sods can be a problem but this new site looks just the ticket.

BTW, Schafer's Millions - interview may be of interest you re: Double Fine Adventure, Masem. There's an interview regarding Revolution Software being 'saved' by the app store and here's a 'making of' Infinity Blade interview. Looking very promising. Someoneanother 15:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Already being discussed at WT:VG/S. Try to keep things centralized in one place. :p
heh technically centralization would involve using this page for everything :P I know I've hit a few questions here that were referred to subpages. I don't have them all watched but trying to pay more attention to the subpages that exist. the issue i see is a lot of people might watch the main page, but not the subpage. -- ferret (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
*shrugs* I've got everything watched, so it's not an issue for me. People interested in discussing Sources have WP:VG/S watched, so asking there might net you a more experienced, competent answer, I guess. Salvidrim! 15:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Metal Gear characters articles

An anon redirected the articles Hal Emmerich and Liquid Snake but both of them are basically empty and only a small reception section that lacks formatting. Meryl Silverburgh is in notably better state but still looks like it needs a lot of work. I noted none of them have templates in their talk pages and are orphaned. Should they be redirected once again to List of Metal Gear characters? Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 17:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New logo for adventures task force

File:WikiProject Adventure games logo.svg - please replace the old image with this one on the "supported by adventure games task force" template. All the Best, --Khanassassin ☪ 17:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Has the taskforce formed a consensus on the change? Salvidrim! 17:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Media field

A question popped up in my mind thanks to a buddy on Facebook. I'm glad to see that we've updated the Media field on the infobox to include downloads, but why are we using the term "digital download"? That comes across as redundant (like "ATM machine" or "SAT test"), or are there other forms of download that I don't know about ... analog, perhaps? Would a simple "downloadable" or "Internet download" be sufficient? --McDoobAU93 19:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The terms "ATM machine" or "SAT test" are examples of the RAS syndrome, a different kind of redundancy. Salvidrim! 20:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I thought Online distribution or Digital distribution (Redirect to the former) were being used, not digital download. Digital download is a dab that does link to online Distribution, however. -- ferret (talk) 20:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ferret, I'm cool with either Online or Digital distribution. Thanks for the heads-up! --McDoobAU93 20:37, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is gonna be a very odd question and a potential shitstorm.

I made the article Super Hornio Brothers for Wikipedia:April Fool's Main Page/Did You Know. I mulled abit over whether or not the film should get a mention and wikilink in some of the Super Mario articles, but I decided to put it into the Template:Mario_franchise in the unoffical category, seeing it wasn't licensed by Nintendo and it would pointless to mention it given the other unoffical stuff has barely any mentions in the other articles. Someone edited it out with a vague reason, and I asked him what was up (as of this writing, no response). Initially, I did have mentions that the film was rumored to have been bought by Nintendo, but upon some further digging, I found this bit of info from porn star Ron Jeremy's website:

Some of you may be wondering why it is that we, Ron Jeremy’s Official Website, do not offer Super Hornio Brothers or Super Hornio Brothers 2 within our massive library of Ron Jeremy videos. The simple answer is “Nintendo”. After Super Hornio Brothers was produced, the Nintendo corporation bought the rights to the films in order to halt their distribution indefinitely. Otherwise, we would 100% offer up Super Hornio Brothers for streaming glory.

So now this is abit of a funny quandary. Technically, the film was initially an unauthorized parody, which would make it Unofficial media. If what Ron Jeremy's site says is true, then technically, it's now an official Nintendo product since Nintendo owns the films outright. How would this be handled in relation to the template and mentions in article spaces? Unofficial, Official, or special circumstances? --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 23:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unofficial. I saw the addition & removal from the Template but decided not to step in. Personally I believe it should be in there, as it is notable unofficial media. Salvidrim! 23:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unambiguously unofficial. "Official" doesn't mean "owned by", it means "authorized", which the film clearly was not.--Remurmur (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regardless, it's not really Mario - they're clearly the Hornio brothers, and not the Mario brothers! Heh, legal stuff. But seriously, I wouldn't call it official, no matter how hilarious the fact is that they own it. Emmy Altava 06:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted to reinclude Super Hornio Brothers back in Template:Mario_franchise. Whether or not the template should include unlicensed material should be the discussion, not whether we should censor it. - hahnchen 14:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are we going to include articles about porn parodies into every template about every franchise now? There's porn parodies about everything out there, after all.. --Conti|✉ 15:04, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

*cough* Rule thirty...Oh, you guys know exactly which rule that is... Seriously though, what makes this different? I...err...don't know much on the subject so I don't know how common these parodies (with more well known actors) are. Nolelover Talk·Contribs 15:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All unlicensed media have been removed from Template:Mario franchise. I'm OK with that, even though the motive was censorship. - hahnchen 16:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see nobody has expressed any issue with the rest of the unofficial games; removing the whole category is something I object to. I reverted you and posted on the Template's talk page. Salvidrim! 17:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reception for real people

Are Reception sections acceptable for real people? I'm thinking about Hiroyuki Ito#Reception in particular, but just the idea of rating people, even if based on their work, seems strange to me. Jonathan Hardin' (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can only think of one case of such a section being appropriate and it's for the Second Coming of Our Saviour Lord; and then only if addressed through a well balanced NPOV. No, the section is not commenting on the person but his work; and should be renamed accordingly. Diego (talk) 16:03, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There would definitely be reason to have "Legacy" or "Impact" sections for key iconic people from the industry, but a reception about the games the person's involved with seems off. --MASEM (t) 16:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure of that, it would be like a "reception of his paintings" for an artist. True that video games are usually a group work, but if this person is the visionary after a collection of acclaimed titles I think reviewing them is adequate. Diego (talk) 16:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Paintings are generally the work of one person, so any reception on the painting is all accreditted to the artist. Furthermore, artists tend to have many many more works than a video game developer. Video games - at least nowadays - are no longer single-person works, so the reception of a video game is very difficult to pin to one person. That said, the visionaries who's fingerprints on a game are very obvious to tell, such as Tim Schafer, Shigeru Miyamoto, Ken Levine, etc., could have sections in their respective articles about how the aspects they are known to create are received (aka Legacy or Impact). --MASEM (t) 18:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Masem, though I think this could be applied better to video game composers than programmers, producers, etc. Some composer articles (see Felix Mendelssohn) do well describing the person's legacy with their respective contributions after before and after death. For the designers themselves, some sites (see this IGN link) rank the designers based on their industry impact. ~ Hibana (talk) 21:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No question. Again, it depends on how easy it is to identify the fingerprints of the person involved. A VG composure, certainly, that's almost a one-to-one. I offer that for like Schafer (known for his humor and creative writing), Miyamoto (the whole Zelda storyline and gameplay) and Levine (plotting), we can track that easily. For someone like, say, CliffyB (Epic Games) where its more difficult to see where his fingerprint lay on his company's products, I doubt we could write something like that. --MASEM (t) 01:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mortal Kombat characters

An editor, User:TheDarkPyrano100 is attempting to spin out characters from List of Mortal Kombat characters, primarily by reverting to previously poor states of the original articles (such as [[ Kabal (Mortal Kombat)‎‎]]). I reverted just today and left a note on the editor's talk page, but was reverted back in the past hour or so without communication.

These articles fail WP:WAF/WP:NOT/WP:N. Can I get help, either with reversion or with advice on how to deal with the editor? --Izno (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have they been AFDed before? If not, then it's fairly difficult to say they must be merged, and that they cannot stand alone, given that we have articles like Giratina, Von Kaiser and Elena (Street Fighter) seem to exist without any difficulty. I'm not a big fan of character articles, although I can't say they do any real harm - they're generally made up of very minor quotes taken from previews for their development, and minor quotes taken in reviews for the reception, and maybe a reference to a trashy "top 10 fat people in video games" style articles. No one has ever written an article dedicated to these characters, but hey, Steelix is IGN readers 80th best Pokemon! - hahnchen 01:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just going to point out rather quickly that many characters do have discussion on their importance and lasting impact beyond their games or origin, and their articles do explain such. Yes, there are *many* articles that fall back on the "so and so talked about it x times so it must be important", but until notability gets an overhaul, you'll have to deal with it. But saying these should stay because other crap exists is a bit much: if it can't stand on its own merits and show why its significant as a fictional character, it shouldn't have an article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Something similar happened with three Metal Gear articles: Meryl Silverburgh, Liquid Snake and Hal Emmerich with the briefest reception sections ever and the last two articles mentioned are basically empty. Should they be merged back too?Tintor2 (talk) 02:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll post a more eloquent response and proposal for stuff regarding this when I get back home, but I'd honestly say yeah, re-merge them. They're the work of an anon editor that's been focused on character articles lately (194.145.185.229), though given his knee-jerk response to anything he doesn't like we can probably expect a tirade regarding the matter.
Regarding the proposal statement...I think we need to figure out what to do with the current standards for articles, as we can all agree the bar has been raised beyond "are people talking about X subject enough times" rather than how they're talking about it..--Kung Fu Man (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The user doesn't appear to have any intention of developing the articles. Speaking from a merge backlog perspective, I particularly note the user hasn't even bothered to remove the article's merge tags, causing the articles to misleadingly (and annoyingly) reappear in the backlog. ClaretAsh 11:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Besides not responding to talk page messages, User:TheDarkPyrano100 is still redirecting articles, and is now with the Tekken articles, redirecting Raven (Tekken) (apparently using an anon account in the process). I merged it back for the same reasons.Tintor2 (talk) 17:05, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Given the non-response from the user responsible, merging is OK. But let's not pretend that characters from Mortal Kombat fail "WP:WAF/WP:NOT/WP:N" any more than Soul Calibur/Tekken/Pokemon/Whatever articles. I'd be OK with just flat out deleting swathes of these as minutiae. It's not like they're not backed up with sources, they are, in the same way that we can describe the HUDless presentation of Dead Space, or Car damage in Forza 4 by culling snippets from previews and reviews. We don't, because we think going down to that level is trivia. For some reason, we're fine when we're discussing characters though. Weirdly, what I don't consider minutiae - such as the list of tracks/planes/sports that a simulation game simulates (the most concise description of what that game actually is) is consistently deleted. - hahnchen 22:07, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're going to have to make your point clearer than "Rawr the rest aren't notable either for cherrypicking bits from reviews!" If someone can grab a source's opinion on something from a review so be it. Then again there's a big difference between discussing why a character is notable in a fictional sense or in terms of their design, and disucssing why they're important just because they happen to be strong/weak in the particular game they're from. As it stands even on that subject there are plenty of articles that teeter on that edge I think need to be re-evaluated and dismantled accordingly, even some I've written over the years.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this is pretty darn simple: if there is significant coverage in a reliable source independant of the subject, it's notable. In this case, "significant" would require the discussion to be about the character and not the game. Salvidrim! 22:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The point I make is fairly clear, cherrypicking quotes from reviews doesn't make the subject is notable. Somehow we have lowered our standards for characters, because they are almost never the subject of RS discussion. I can't really say the articles do much harm, so I've not really done anything about it. But I spoke up really to say, "don't just pick on Mortal Kombat".
I linked to Elena (Street Fighter) above, the reception quotes articles such as "Top 50 Street Fighter Characters", "12 fighters we'd like to see in Super Street Fighter IV", "Ten Characters We Want in Street Fighter IV" and is mentioned once in passing in an article on black video game characters. This isn't the exception in character articles. The issue is not just Mortal Kombat. - hahnchen 23:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well I'm going to make a comparison here. While not the best in terms of reception, Elena at least still has discussion regarding the character and reactions to it. You're citing titles, but not the text involved: it has room for improvement. Are you expecting sources solely discussing the subject? Yet on the flipside Steelix...is basically a giant video game commentary. Someone reading this article will not understand what makes Steelix more noteworthy than any of the other 600+ Pokemon.
And MK isn't being singled out here, the issue is those articles were weak enough to begin with and have *no* reception.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:26, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
EDIT: Looking closer...nothing of significance is being said in the reception for Elena. Yeah it bugs me too.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to say that the "Steelix is IGN readers 80th best Pokemon" bit does not make him notable by itself. The commentary supplemented with it does. Blake (Talk·Edits) 02:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not...really. There's nothing there other than "Steelix is strong with high defense" in the games...--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What? I am not talking about the Pokemon Chick source. I am talking about Audrey Blake's comments on the poll page. Blake (Talk·Edits) 03:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No I mean every other source for reception. There's a brief bit in that book on dragons, but that's it, everything else describes Steelix as an element of gameplay. Also IGN didn't really name it the 80th best...that was a reader poll, though the editor comments are still valid.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:57, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think we were discussing Steelix's notability as a whole. I was just talking about the use of polls as sources. Yes, it is a reader poll, so it doesn't matter for much, but the editor comments saying why they deserve that spot in the poll does help.
As for Steelix's notablity, the only reason Onix and Steelix have articles is that they were once merged, but split because their reception had nothing to do with each other, and the consensus was that merged articles must have sources that about them as a group.
As they are split, they barely stand alone, especially with the notion that sources mainly describing gameplay elements doesn't help notability, which I won't argue at the moment. Blake (Talk·Edits) 16:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, I don't think the editorial on all these throwaway toplists confers notability. One paragraph out one hundred is not a good metric, there are not 100 notable pokemons. Just because Taven features on UGO's Top 50 Mortal Kombat Characters doesn't mean we should have an article on Taven, it just means we should have a list of those characters too. - hahnchen 20:46, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Who are you disagreeing with? One appearance on a top 50+ list does not make a subject notable, I agree. But if the subject was on 5 different "top x" lists, and had coverage from some other sources as well, then that shows notability.(Daxter is an example, I guess) Blake (Talk·Edits) 21:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When those "top x" lists are constrained to "top x" within a single series, that's not good enough, five of those aren't good enough. It just means that the series is notable. I agree that Daxter is notable, because not only has it been featured as lead character, but those "top x" include GDC's Original Game Character of the 2002. - hahnchen 21:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As the original author for the current Von Kaiser article, may I ask what you take issue with? - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 08:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Only just spotted your comment now, but it's pretty much what I've written above, and there's more discussion below. I don't think Punch Out characters, like the MK characters or Pokemon discussed here are notable. I think they're better served in a list, because while singular characters aren't notable, the cast is. Taking snippets from reviews and previews is not sufficient to establish independent notability - in the case of the Punch Out series, each character article has a "stereotyping" critique, even though the criticism is across the whole series is only really covered in two articles. I don't think splitting up the response across an entire spectrum of character articles is useful, when it would be better covered (like the sources) in a centralised location. I could write an article, using snippets from reviews on things like Chapter 1 in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (IGN praised the bombast in this level...), but that's minutiae game guide level detail which is better covered in summary in the parent article. - hahnchen 00:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for one, most of the Punch-Out!! character articles are about subjects spanning multiple games, not just a single chapter in a game. For another, I'm assuming/hoping you're not lumping in every character from the PO series in your criticism, as several of them do not fall under the criticism. Glass Joe, Soda Popinski, Bald Bull, King Hippo, Don Flamenco, and others come to mind. Not all of the article snippets are reviews, either. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 06:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think number of appearances grants them notability. Several from the PO character series do fall under the same critique. - hahnchen 17:07, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's not why they're notable. While most of them do use the same citations, it isn't a problem because it's not a case of using a general statement about all characters in the series, but rather, statements specifically made about individual characters. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 07:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I mentioned above, my point was that snippets from reviews and toplists don't make the snippets notable - they make the subject notable (which is the game, or the cast). This is why I mentioned Car damage in Forza 4 as an example above, you could very easily do the same as has been done for characters - but it'd get merged (rightly) into the development and reception sections of the parent, because those standards would be enforced. - hahnchen 14:01, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it's not just snippets from reviews; notably, you have the Sumatra Lahiri(sp?) article, and the GamesRadar article. Just because it's discussed under the umbrella of the series does not mean that the discussion of them is not notable. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 20:47, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
They're still snippets though. Like the "UGO's Top 50 Mortal Kombat Characters" and "80th best Pokemon" linked above, they're just snatched lines, in many cases - just one sentence. You have two articles talking about racial stereotyping in the Punch Out series, that would be better summarised paragragh in the reception section rather than split out line by line across 10 articles. I just think this level of detail is outside of Wikipedia's scope, not that they're doing any real harm. I did AFD one of the characters mentioned below though, we have a massive blind spot for this stuff - This section should be absolutely brimming. - hahnchen 23:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Still undoing the merges

The editor which I started this section about is continuing his actions. I'll be leaving him a message shortly, but the fact that he refuses to communicate for some reason suggests that he's not up to communication, and hence suggests escalation. --Izno (talk) 00:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another blaring concern is the vast amount of uploaded images – all of which are not of low-resolution to begin with – of which none are used in any articles. He has likewise gone as mass-reverted each and every {{di-orphaned fair use}} tag from all of them, apparently without any intent to add them into any articles. --MuZemike 03:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note here, I am 99.98997% sure that this user also edits under the IP 82.8.135.203. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 18:09, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is a matter for WP:CCI and WP:ANI, I think. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 23:51, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Weird editing style. There are good edits, like creating a template for Sanzaru Games and then adding it to relevant articles, and adding a missing category to Sly Cooper: Thieves in Time. But the confusing part is that those useful edits were preceded by a page blanking. Odd behaviour. - X201 (talk) 10:36, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:TheDarkPyrano100 is also User:TheDarkPyrano (indef blocked), and I am now certain they are 82.8.135.203. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 10:53, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

HJ Mitchell (re)blocked him at my request, and the IP should be autoblocked. --Izno (talk) 15:33, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

God of War series articles

Can anyone please deal with the God of War series articles (Category:God of War) because of the excessive sock puppetry (like semi-protect them indefinite or something)? It seems that a banned user Asgardian still continuously edit those article using IP addresses. --HOUNDER4 (TALK) (CHANGES) 17:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you're seeking semi-protection, a request should be lodged at WP:RFPP. Salvidrim! 17:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then. Thanks for the advice. --HOUNDER4 (TALK) (CHANGES) 17:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And if the user is ban evading, the concerns should be taken to SPI (he already has one). Since this seems to have ArbCom involvement, perhaps help should be sought that way also. Salvidrim! 17:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Pcgame is creating hidden object game articles on titles published by Big Fish Games, which in itself is not an issue, however these articles contain text copied and pasted from the Big Fish Games blurbs. Compare the plot section of Natural Threat: Ominous Shores to the blurb on BFG. The link to the BFG blurb, http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/16450/natural-threat-ominous-shores/index.html?afcode=af5dc3355635&channel=affiliates&identifier=af5dc3355635 also contains 'affiliate' and an identifying number. The same affiliate code is used in the link to the blurb in Aaron Crane: Paintings Come Alive, which is also copy-pasta, this seems to be an ongoing pattern for this editor. This user has had a few posts to their talkpage, removed. This looks like someone hoping to earn affiliate fees rather than a direct campaign from Big Fish. What to do? Someoneanother 20:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious copyvio is obvious, but to do with it, the process is through WP:CCI. Just make sure to notify the user after creating the case (you've notified him of the problem to start, which is of course a good thing). --MASEM (t) 20:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't notified Pcgame of this post, as there's little to actually discuss, but I would have if the post had been anywhere 'official' like ANI or a main noticeboard. Xe has been notified of COI and went on to delete the message without responding (by Rehkevor, not me), so it's not like they're unaware that their editing is not ideal. What about the affiliate links though? Someoneanother 20:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, if you pot to CCI (copyright infringe cases), make sure to notify him of that discussion *there* (not here). The fact someone had pinged him, with messages deleted and still going forward, will help quickly put an end to the case. --MASEM (t) 21:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see, will do. Thank you for your help. Someoneanother 21:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just undid blanking by the user in question on their own talk page containing a message concerning the issue, brought up on February 21. ~ Hibana (talk) 21:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've posted on the CCI board..thing and notified Pcgame of this. Someoneanother 21:49, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The copyright issue has been dealt with, but the articles still need the affiliate links replacing with standard links to Big Fish Games, which I'll do shortly. Someoneanother 23:22, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Adventure games task force add-up

Check out my official Adventure Games Magazine! :) --Khanassassin ☪ 17:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looking good! :) Salvidrim! 21:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once again Metal Gear characters

An anon has been creating Hal Emmerich, Liquid Snake and Meryl Silverburgh but the first two articles are basically empty while the third is completely unsourced. Despite reintegration to the characters list by another user and me, the anon keeps adding them insisting others to add the content to the articles. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 17:25, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly enough, I've spoken with the anon about this a few hours ago. Instead of copying what he said, I'll point you to the relevant thread on my talk page. He's attempted to engage in discussion to no avail and editors keep on simply re-merging the articles. Please, at the very least, discuss the issue properly before continuing to revert the splits. Salvidrim! 17:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I've done here about three times since there has been discussion about notability for fictional characters. Moreover now that I check the attempt to discuss it, I can't help but notice informal messages towards user:Axem Titanium and the fact that the talk page discussion started just after the empty articles were created. No discussion was made for such proposals.Tintor2 (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't wish to be personally involved in the actual content discussion, but if one editor keeps splitting and the other re-merging, it devolves into an edit war, which is all I am trying to avoid. I see you've replied to the discussion at Talk:List of characters in the Metal Gear series, hopefully something helpful will come out of it. Salvidrim! 17:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I undid the splits before seeing Salvidrim's discussion or comments. With so many editors (I saw more than just Tintor in edit logs) undoing the demerge it seemed clear to me that a consensus doesn't exist, while the anon is claiming one does based off a 4 year old talk section that doesn't indicate consensus or discuss the characters he's demerging. The split stub articles are sourced almost entirely by various "top 10" type lists. -- ferret (talk) 18:00, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tossing my input in here from looking at Meryl's sources: GamePro's (incorrectly attributed to GameSpot) is a joke article, especially with the last entry being Jack Thompson. The Complex source also doesn't seem to be recoverable, even after fixing the url and trying it on web archive: they just didn't record it. It's already weak before you take out those two, and Google has no book sources for "Metal Gear"+Meryl.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:28, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Moving on to Otacon (Hal Emmerich for those of you playing at home), the last source can't be used, it's an open online poll. The "Greatest Jews" article seems as odd here as it does in Meryl's...not too keen on it. But there is more being said here than in Meryl's article at least, and a few more sources could bulk it up to let it stand alone.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Kung Fu, could you drop your comments on the Talk:List of characters in the Metal Gear series? I've commented there too. We should take the conversation there now so the record of it stays with that article. -- ferret (talk) 18:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You beat me to it, I was about to say the same thing. I'm glad discussion has picked up on this. :) Salvidrim! 18:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Read what I just wrote at Talk:List of Tekken characters. 2 more cents:

  • I wasn't even really looking for reception for any of them, it's just the random stuff that I've been only came upon accidentally and noting to use (at Portal talk:Fictional characters - some of these sources became even defunct in the meantime, as noted by you). There's of course much more, so CONTRIBUTE - don't you see the "expand section" tag there, as well as the stub tags? And the "empty section" sections to fill, with the old content, current content, and selected stuff from the wikias, and to source all of it - but it's up to you (everyone) now, because I just laid the groundwork, more or less, burt that's all because I'm positively sure I'm not the only Wikipedia editor still alive (an article that I actually worked on recently is Taki (Soulcalibur), and before it Mileena and Kitana (Mortal Kombat), if you want to see what I can do when I really try my best - I could do just the same with most others, but only if I had unlimited time on my hands).
  • But if you do search for more, try to do any better than this wild claim by you of Google has no book sources for "Metal Gear"+Meryl - because if you search properly she has 659 sources, for god's sake. And you just don't know how to search! 124 are even for "Meryl Silverburgh" (the full name) is also far from "none", including Interactive Storytelling for Video Games, Guinness World Records Gamer's Edition and... Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Operation Barracuda (I'm just as surprised as you). But seriously, learn how to use Google already, that's amazing that you still can't do it (and I'll tell what you were doing wrong: the "+" in your search entries destroys the results you get, because you make it search instead for things like "Metal Gear Meryl" in this example, so no wonder you can't never ever find anything there).

And that's all folks. Now, start being contructive, by contributing to the articles instead of being needlessly obstructive (literally). --194.145.185.229 (talk) 13:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also as of the claim of "the fact that the talk page discussion started just after the empty articles were created" - see: Talk:List of characters in the Metal Gear series#Is it possible to separate Sniper Wolf?. But yeah, there was no discussion. Because no one answered my very clear and polite questions. SIX MONTHS AGO. So, who was "discussing", and who was "not discussing", again? I'll tell you: it was me who who was discussing (and not only in this section, I then posted 2 more additional sections in this talk page, there were also 0 answers, until yesterday). The problem: I was the only one disscussing. And now that's really all about it. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 13:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One of the requirements for any wikipedia article is the idea of notability, that the topic has been discussed with significant coverage in secondary sources. That means, for fictional characters, not just about their in-universe appearances, but information about their creation and their reception or impact. Google-searching as "Meryl Silverburgh" (both regular and news archives) does not result in any such hits - the closest thing that comes up is mention of toys based on the character; the rest are fan sites and the like, inappropriate. This is likely true for most of the rest of the characters that have been identified here. Hence, splitting out the character is inappropriate since it fails the basic requirement for a stand-alone article. --MASEM (t) 14:09, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And where is exactly a definition what makes "the topic has been discussed with significant coverage in secondary sources"? These are not "fan sites and the like", these sources are called mass media. It's gaming press, it's regular press, it's general entertainment websites such as UGO.com. Not "fan sites and the like", hello? Look, I do revert the articles that fail WP:N - just recently I fought to have Isaac Clarke merged, and I won! (Just see the edit history: various people were constantly reverting my redirects, until I finally got some reasonable discuss it on Talk:Dead Space (series)#Merging Isaac.) I merged a lot of articles. Just yesterday I merged Bob (Tekken). Seriously, Jesus, people. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 14:19, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Take it down a peg, nobody's going to be impressed by your machismo, just irritated by it. There's still no sources popping up here: Searching for "'Metal Gear' Meryl" turns out 670 hits for sure...but most have nothing to do with it, and those that look like it would (like Mr. Clancy's novel there) don't list anything inside. It's one thing to claim there are sources, it's another to actually dig and follow through.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:28, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That definition is the core of WP:N. And while yes google search brings up some hits from general gaming media sites, the coverage from those sites is very limited, either simply identifying the character and role in the game (not secondary) or the mention of toys, or even in some cases part of the site's various forums and user-generated content (not acceptable as reliable). Also, we generally don't use simply inclusion in lists like "top 10 couples" (one of the first hits from google news) as proof of notability. And as a note, Wikipedia is not a battleground, you shouldn't take attitudes like "I won!"; the goal is to come to a consensus decision. You should demonstrate by listing explicit sources how the articles on these characters can be shown notable and gain agreement from others before creating them, particularly when your changes have been reverted (that's part of edit warring. --MASEM (t) 14:32, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That definition is the core of WP:N. - what definition?? And please give me the link to policy/guides to back this weird claim: "Also, we generally don't use simply inclusion in lists like "top 10 couples"" - this is just shocking for me, I always thought it's the most important thing (and I think Kung Fu Man at Talk:Lili (Tekken) also demanded just that)! I don't even know what to say, I'm quite speechless now. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 14:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, he did! I cleaned up the reception a lot...some of it was from unreliable sources, but even then most was basically saying the same thing over and over again. Still, with that said there's at least a small start here...but you direly need character reception to show notability. Hasn't she appeared on any "top ten" lists at all on reliable sites?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC) - funny, huh? --194.145.185.229 (talk) 14:43, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That was a suggestion on things to look for regarding sources, if one was desperate enough (as the author was), and even then it depends on just what's being said by the source, not the fact they've been propped on a list. See: "Top Ten Asses in Gaming" by GamePro, which is a joke article. Common sense needs to be applied here. Nobody's going to care how a character ranked on some list, but whether or not they were significant enough to say something noteworthy about the character.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I assume that Masem means that notability can't be established entirely by Top 10 lists, and that's probably because most individual entries in Top 10 lists just aren't that detailed. However, they can be used in addition to other sources, which is likely what that quote from Kung Fu Man was referring to.
Also, I'd like to second the notion that you take it down a notch, it's not helping your argument. It's easier to persuade people if you act a little more civilized... Sergecross73 msg me 14:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Noting that both KFM and Sergecross read me correctly - inclusion on a top ten (or whatever) list not necessarily appropriate for notability but may contribute towards it or lead to other sources.
As for the definition, please see WP:GNG: If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list. and there's more details as to what that all means and is expected for satisfying the guideline. --MASEM (t) 16:09, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What "other sources"? And where does it say that "just the lists" are NOT "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"? You claim that multiple lists (and that's hardly definitive list of reception, just the stuff that I came by accidentally, over the course of few last months) is not enough - and how do you back it up? And anyway why won't YOU make it any better, didn't you see the "expand section" tag that I posted? Do you believe I should do eveything myself, start with a complete article (than why Wikipedia has even all these templates for the stub articles?), only for you to mercifully allow me to (re)create an article according to your own subjective understanding of what allegedly is and what is not enough of a "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", all while calling the media outlets to be "fan sites and such", among other elitist and dismissive approach towards me and my work, selectively singling out all the restored articles for reverts before anyone (and that's including both me and you) had even a chance to improve them? Please cease your obstructive activity at once. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 17:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now, this is causing us more trouble. Please assume good faith and be WP:CIVIL. We must cite reliable, third party sources. It will never get better if we can just create stub articles at once with low-quality sources and above all, these were de-merged without proper consensus and fan sites are generally not considered reliable sources. As such, we must remove undue weight on the articles and build a consensus. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of game characters

I think what we need to do is establish what exactly meets character notability once and for all, because across the board we have many articles that are either propped up on gameplay critique, or not enough actual statements from third-party sources to support them, and then from there take it by a case-by-case basis. The Ficitonal Character project exists in part for this, but it's been...quite dead lately. But with as many articles as we have, having some groundwork before a cleaver starts tearing through things would help.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:53, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think WP:GNG and WP:NOTPLOT is basically all that's needed, really. Character articles should be created only for characters that have had a sourced impact in the real world, regardless of their weight in the game plot. Detailed description of in-universe character traits would instead be better placed at Gamepedia; keeping Wikipedia only for characters that have been directly reviewed either by critics (as long as they give some critical commentary beyond the plot) or the general public, will make those significant characters easier to spot. Diego (talk) 21:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think that KFM is suggesting unique aspects for video game characters compared to any other types of fictional characters. Our field tends to get populated by things like top ten lists, or notability of characters as a game asset (eg "Pikechu is the easiest pokemon to learn" does not establish notability as that edges on a game-guide approach). There are probably very few characters that are actually notable due to their gameplay mechanics (Missing No. comes to mind). We would not need any new guideline page, just be clear that video games need *strong* reception and development sections as their basis, and that more than likely most characters can't be spun out as their own articles. --MASEM (t) 01:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. That sounds fine. Diego (talk) 13:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, guys... GUYS!! Wait, what

Video game characters already have the most draconic notability restrictions in the whole Wikipedia!!

Just look around at most comic book characters - they have no reception sections at all. For example, I just randomly clicked on the first character on the list of X-Men in their navbox, Angel - and here you go. Followed by Anole (allegedly, a "good article"!), Ariel, Armor, Aurora (and so on, that was just the letter A for the X-Men characters). Whatever "sourced impact in the real world" are they having? And only one of them has even any resemblance of "reception" section - the one that is a "good article" (it's "reception and sexuality", for being, gasp, gay or something), and it's citing mostly, or even exclusively... the primary sources (comics themselves).

And that's normal elsewhere, only the video game community is ever obsessed to restrict themselves more and more, which excuse me but it is just pretty crazy.

Why won't you wait for everyone on Wikipedia to catch up with us here, before setting even strictier standards for ourselves, again? Most video game characters have been purged about 4 years ago (which had upset me at a time, but it was a good thing for developing the unprecented level of quality as we're having now). Then I think some anime characters were also merged, but not on this scale (for example: I've seen several dozen of character articles from some super-obscure anime that were created in 2006 and never, ever, updated since then, they're all tagged with "unsourced" and "notability" tags for years, and that's it). But that's all.

The comic characters were never purged (as I just demonstrated to you: all reccurring characters have their pages, not even these really famous). Just the category "Marvel Comics superheroes" has 1,013 articles in the main category, "Category:DC Comics superheroes" has 782 in the main category, and so on. In total, that's thousands of comic book character articles only counting the superheroes and supervillains ("Category:DC Comics supervillains": 718, and so on). There's of course also a plenty of non-supers. And look at their "good articles" that are often worse than our regular articles.

But that's comics, so what about the novel books? I checked "Category:Characters in American novels of the 20th century" (very specific one), and I clicked on the very first one, and so there is David "Noodles" Aaronson - zero sources, but of course. The next ones in the row being: Genco Abbandando (1 source), Achren (0 sources), Kay Adams-Corleone (1 unreliable source, the IMDb), Nick Adams (1 source), Alain Johns (1 source, primary), Achilles Alexandrakis (0 sources), and so on - all having oh so-excellently proven "sourced impact in the real world", right? Are they having "*strong* reception and development sections as their basis"? No, of course not (and not even "weak reception and development sections as their basis"): most of literature character articles (also thousands of them) are actually worse even than the comic characters, because are not even citing the primary sources. Most often they're not citing anything at all. And nobody even tags them for unreferenced, or notability, or as stubs or anything else - that's just their de-facto standards, that will continue.

And that's like that for all/most of the other fiction.

Except of video games, where, once again, there are standards. And these standards are already set extremely high. And so there are only less than 400 video game characters, in total, including villains, including everything, in the most popular entertainment of today (much more than the comics, rivaling the film industry, but of course you know it). But, for you even that is still too many? What you want to achieve - to make it just (say) the 40 very top video game characters with "sourced impact in the real world", as compared to all the 4,000 or so comic book supers and 40,000 (any number) non-video game characters, elsewhere? Why? You think that would be an improvement, somehow? Such a very selective approach to anything will not make Wikipedia any better. And no, it's not any "other stuff exists". It's "we're already way ahead of the de-facto Wikipedia standards, and that's for a long time, right now, and for an indefinite future too". That's the reality. And as such you should be very proud of yourselves, instead of this samokritika session going on for not being udarnik enough (speaking in communist terms). Now come on and congratule each other, and chill down a bit.

And now that you've seen other character articles, go and check out just almost any existing video game character of Wikipedia - and even my stubs that you redirected (without a consensus, because I for one disagree, and without an objectively good reason), but that were already better sourced than most fictional character articles around, and with better proven notability than the vast majority of them - even being just still quick stubs. You will see that my vastly incomplete (note all the expand, update and refmore tags that I've posted there) Meryl's article is already much better than, I estimate, at least 95% of all fictional character articles on Wikipedia! And that's including video game characters, because these are so few in number.

So, unless all the rest of Wikipedia gets even remotely close to our current stanards (and they are far to even the video game Wikia standards), we should not estabilish the ones for video games only. I don't say to lose our existing current standards, that I adhere to and promote all the time, I just say to uphold them. And by this I mean to rid of the still long-standing crap articles (objectively - no reception whatsoever, you know) such as Edward Carnby, Augustus Sinclair and John MacTavish (and yes I did talk about them to both Kung Fu Man and Tintor2, but they just flatly refused to touch them because they got tired of merging stuff - and thta's some serious double standards, for me and everyone else, even if my work is so much better - and I just bring them once again), which might be actually okay according to normal Wikipedia standards (heck, they would be even actually well above most of non-videogame character articles), but NOT according to our standards, among the gamers. Once again, these standards are already set very, very high, and I hope you got it now.

And about these exclusive standards we have, as I understand them, in a sensible way - my understanding, and my work here, is just merging the crap stuff like Isaac Clarke (really, if I didn't insist, this article would be still online - and its author even kept reverting my repeated attempts to improve this article!), but re-creating the long-due articles on actually notable characters, such as, to name just a few, Pac-Man (character), Dogmeat, Dark Queen (Battletoads) and Avatar (Ultima) (a creature, a dog, a chick, and a dude) - and somehow no one has ever complained about it before. But that's because there was nothing to complain and you're trying to create some artifictial "problems", and not only for me but for all of us. We are the Wikipedia's vanguard! But no one's following, so stop.

And so now revert your obstructive work on the MGS 'and Tekken characters (the latest ones, such as Julia Chang, because the previous Tekken splits such as Anna Williams (Tekken) have been left alone - I see you guys suddenly obssessing over all my work everywhere, but selectively just the most recent, because it was all good for looong time before you suddenly woke up and dogpiled me for some reason), assume good faith, and start the constructive edits on them.

If you want to answer me about it, or make a comment, first read what I wrote once again. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 17:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with this. These standards would only be ideal for when Wikipedia has mostly Good Articles, and is pretty much complete.(Which will never occur) Articles don't need a whole complete section of Reception(or Legacy/other Notability showing stuff) before they are even brought into the open. Wikipedia is incomplete, and allows for incomplete articles. Thus, only a hint of notability is required for an article to be created. "Having a real-world impact" is nice and all, but it should never be necessary for an article to be created. Blake (Talk·Edits) 17:26, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The cases of comic characters that you put together are in poor shape and likely won't survive AFD if they were sent there. They only cover the plot elements of the character and nothing about creation or reception.
What we need to consider is how any fictional character is handled on WP, and the best indicators of that is looking at what have become Featured Articles. Those include (in the "Media" category) Homer Simpson, Jason Voorhees, and Jabba the Hut. I don't see any comic characters though I know Superman had been an FA before, so the format and layout of these articles, as well as those in the VG project that have been featured too (eg Master Chief (Halo)). --MASEM (t) 17:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please read my post again, where I addressed the "other stuff exists" issue. These are the current Wikipedia standards. Many, many thousands of complete crap articles, and no one cares. The mine articles that got reverted, even in their very icomplete phases, were well above these de facto Wikipedia standards, better than most of the stuff. And why won't you take care of all these actually bad articles (once again: many thousands of them), that continue to exist for so many years for the sole reason of not being video game-related? That's some really odd priorities. And why do you even bring featured articles here? I didn't claim mean my stubs were featured class or anything, these were stub articles (and the stub articles are allowed on Wikipedia, even having their own templates) - once again, read my post above for the second time. And what I wanted was just to make some stubs, for me and the others to expand later, that would result in some regular articles - not featured, not good, but the just the normal Wikipedia articles. And that is what I do for a long time - see the edit history of, say, Jade (Mortal Kombat) and how it's getting expanded. That's how it works. If one only allows it, instead of barring the work for no real reason. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 17:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
At one point, early in WP's day, we had articles on every character, every episode, every issue of comics; this included, at that time, every Pokemon monster. But we as a whole have matured, and recongized, among other things, that notability of these characters and other fictional elements needed to be shown to allow an article for the character. The Pokemon articles were all merged to lists with the exception of the most notable ones (eg: Pikachu).
But this wasn't a project wide effort to review every single character article. The Pokemon change was done because it was a concerted effort. The same hasn't been done across the board. Hence, you will find articles that fail notability apparently existing without problems. This is the point of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS - we do have articles that fail guidelines and policies and hence we need to be careful about using these as examples. The reason I bring up featured articles is that because those have had extensive community consensus of what the content of such articles should be about, and thus are the examples we want articles to strive towards. --MASEM (t) 18:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to weigh in here too: just because an article is merged doesn't bar it from being recreated, or someone working on the article on a subpage. For a long time, that's how many articles were actually developed and then brought out into the open. However, I am going to be flat and say that the quality of a lot of character articles on wikipedia is crap, and even I'm partially to blame for that. Reception's been used as a measuring stick, where if you get X sources saying so-and-so about some fictional character, you can has article. That's absurd. It's one thing for reception to toss out lines regarding a character's design and whatnot, but if the reader can't grasp what makes it important to know about outside of the context of the game, it has failed miserably. There's a distinction between being notable in the context of one's source material, and notable in the context of fiction as a whole. As for your claim of double standards? The only reason I haven't torn through those yet is to be frank, I'd be more than happy to cleave through a whole ton of articles at the same time. Over time wikipedia's standards are going to improve and that bar is going to get raised. That's common sense.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Masem - The problem with using Featured Articles as examples is that they are mostly complete. You are pretty much saying "An article needs to be complete before it is created", which is wrong on so many levels. I am not proposing that we create hundreds of new articles, but we shouldn't stop others from doing it if they meet basic notability guidelines.
@KungFuMan - Like I said above, "Having a real-world impact" is nice and all, but it should never be necessary for an article to be created. Sure, we shouldn't have articles for every character in every game, but if they are covered non-trivially in a multitude of sources, then that should be a good indication that they are notable. Really, Reception sections are not required. Even a source such as this could help for notability. That is how Wikipedia works. You don't see an article such as Basenji having a section devoted to establishing notability. The sources scattered throughout the whole article make it notable by sourcing the actual information about the subject. As a whole, we are writing articles incorrectly. Yes, "Reception" sections stating "X editor from Y thinks [the subject] is cool because it's green" is wrong, so maybe we need to better address this issue. When I get the time, I would love to re-write an article to show what I think it should be. Blake (Talk·Edits) 19:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Blake, I'm not saying it has to be something like "This character cured cancer!", but hell even an article like Haunter has people commenting on why they remembered it as a fictional character, citing specific aspects of it. Gengar by comparison doesn't pull that off. If the article can say something even small like that, it's a big step closer to notability. Stuff like pokemon distribution is nice and all, but that's just the promotion aspect: it has nothing to do with how important a character is, just a matter that a company wants to push a product.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't have to be complete, but by notability guideline, an article should at least demonstrate why we should presume it notable and thus allow an article for it. I point to FAC to show the types of elements of notability that we should be looking for in fictional characters - namely can we discuss their concept and creation out-of-universe, or is there reception for the character that we can go into. --MASEM (t) 19:19, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hear what you are saying. But what I am saying is that the promotion source shows that IGN editors would take the time to write about such a thing. That is what the core of WP:N describes.
Anyways, I did some playing around here, and am conflicted on my thoughts of the result. This of course would not be an end result of what I am proposing, but a step in the direction. Basically, comments like those aren't really "Reception" and could possibly be better fit into sourcing gameplay content, which is a large part of its character. It could do with some rewriting and WP:NPOV copy-editing, but its a start. Blake (Talk·Edits) 19:56, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I told you twice to not bring "other stuff exists", and yet you did it also twice. How many times should I repeat: video game characters standards are now EXCULUSIVELY extremely strict already, for years. There are less than 400 video game characters right now, and for you this is too many. But, at the same time, there are more than 1,400 DC Comics superheroes and supervillains alone. For many years. And there are no guarantees it won't remain this way for many years to come, or forever. And you're NOT doing anything about it. Once again: what good it will be to have just, say, 40 game characters and 40 THOUSAND non-game characters? Why won't you wait until the rest of Wikipedia caches up with our standards BEFORE estabilishing the new standards as the vanguard of Wikipedia?

I also told you: I didn't plan to make featured or even good articles there. Over 99% of the stuff in Wikipedia is neither. And people everywhere are NOT usually shooting down the stubs on sight. Only here. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 12:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I, for one, would fully support to create much stricter inclusion rules for comic book characters, instead of loosening the restrictions for video game characters. I always found the existence of extremely detailed, in-universe articles about every single insignificant comic book hero on Wikipedia to be rather silly. They are much better suited for a comic-book-wiki, IMHO, just like detailed articles about every single video game character, ever, would be better suited for a video-game-wiki. --Conti|✉ 12:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your position seems to entirely rely on "other stuff exists" to support your position, while telling people to ignore "other stuff exists", and basically saying "because other projects are at a lower standard, we shouldn't have a higher standard." The fact that there's 1,400 or 5,000 or 10,000 DC super hero articles doesn't mean that the VG project should do the same or should not attempt to have higher standards. You've just said you don't even want to make good articles... because most articles aren't good anyways (i.e. "other stuff exists"). Over and over you've said "I made a stub, now YOU GUYS deal with it." Why should we? Wikipedia is about consensus, and if the project has a basic consensus that most characters shouldn't have their own article, that's what should be done, whether every single comic book character ever has a stub article or not. The project exists to improve Wikipedia. The argument that "other projects or articles aren't held to such high standards, so we shouldn't do it either" is absurd. -- ferret (talk) 12:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't have interest in making quality articles on WP, then you shouldn't start creating articles. Our standards have gone beyond just being able to show that something exists, but now towards an article that helps to set the context for a reader that may have zero familiarity with the term. Wikia and other wikis exist if you want to focus on the in-universe or game content, but we've decided en.wiki needs to be indiscriminate about what it includes, and that includes fictional characters; if you can't discuss them out-of-universe then they probably don't need their own article. --MASEM (t) 13:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The IP's argument is that he should be allowed to put out a stub with at least more then a hint of notability and allow others who know more about it find more sources. 1 person should not have to find ALL of the sources required to show notability. Sure, these stubs shouldn't be sitting out rotting for over a year, but give them a little time before throwing them away. Blake (Talk·Edits) 15:22, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If they were completely new articles, that would be a fair assessment, but when the articles have been community-merged before to a list, that argument fails; in this case, the editor wishing to remake the article needs to clearly show that the article can improve beyond the originally-merged version before creation to get consensus. Plus, at least personally, I'm one of those that rather see an article created only when notability's clearly established, using user-space or the like to build it out first if that's not the case, particularly for fictional characters or the like which are generally frowned on otherwise. --MASEM (t) 16:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to promote the ideas in the WP:SNOWFLAKE essay at AfDs and policy pages. In this context it basically says "keep the character as an stub if someone cared to write about it, merge to a list article if all references are primary"; the specific criterion to make the test is commentary from professional critics. This is basically consistent with the opinion of the named editors in this thread, that articles like those would be better moved to Wikia; but I'd love to hear what the IP editor thinks of this outcome and the guideline. Diego (talk) 16:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really proud of the kinds of arguments brought out in this discussion. I'm glad to see that WP:VG has grown to the level where we can set an example for other Wikiprojects (whether or not they follow our lead is not something in our control). At the very core, you can't force an editor to do anything since Wikipedia is 100% a volunteer effort. No one can say, "I made this, YOU make it better" and expect people to comply unless they are personally interested in doing the legwork (and it is very much like work) of finding strong, reliable, enough sources. Glad to see this resolved before I had a chance to comment. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just going to chime in and even if this point has been made, I'll be making it again: it's not a matter of Draconian restrictions, it's a matter of editors who care more about these elements of their articles' quality. Video game characters receive more scrutiny than most other mediums' characters, which means that we are going to have to be a lot stricter. Be proud that you are in a project that cares~! - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 05:46, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus Christ

I told to read what I wrote repeatedly until you understand. It's all addressed there. For example:

  • Your position seems to entirely rely on "other stuff exists" to support your position, while telling people to ignore "other stuff exists", and basically saying "because other projects are at a lower standard, we shouldn't have a higher standard."

NO, this what I actually wrote:

  • "Why won't you wait for everyone on Wikipedia to catch up with us here, before setting even strictier standards for ourselves, again? (...) It's "we're already way ahead of the de-facto Wikipedia standards, and that's for a long time, right now, and for an indefinite future too". That's the reality. (...) So, unless all the rest of Wikipedia gets even remotely close to our current stanards (and they are far to even the video game Wikia standards), we should not estabilish the ones for video games only. I don't say to lose our existing current standards, that I adhere to and promote all the time, I just say to uphold them. (...) And about these exclusive standards we have, as I understand them, in a sensible way - my understanding, and my work here, is just merging the crap stuff like Isaac Clarke (really, if I didn't insist, this article would be still online - and its author even kept reverting my repeated attempts to improve this article!), but re-creating the long-due articles on actually notable characters, such as, to name just a few, Pac-Man (character), Dogmeat, Dark Queen (Battletoads) and Avatar (Ultima) (a creature, a dog, a chick, and a dude) - and somehow no one has ever complained about it before. But that's because there was nothing to complain and you're trying to create some artifictial "problems", and not only for me but for all of us. We are the Wikipedia's vanguard! But no one's following, so stop."

So, 'read it again, until you'll understand what I wrote, and only then start commenting. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 17:49, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tekken demerge discussion

An IP insists that some of the articles in the List of Tekken characters to be de-merged. However, there is absolutely no consensus for the de-merging of these pages and we still need a consensus to de-merge them as it was originally de-merged without consensus. The discussion can be found Talk:List of Tekken characters#Why to split the characters (and why I actually do it for a long time). Input from project members would be appreciated. Thanks, Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sjones, you may want to read the section above about Metal Gear Solid, as the same anon IP is involved in de-merging there as well. -- ferret (talk) 15:09, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All right, then. I just wanted to add an additional section regarding the IP's de-merging of the Tekken articles since the debates cover the articles as a whole. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge them back. Split the Tekken characters into separate lists (List of characters introduced in Tekken 3 or something similar). Maybe use tables such as List of X-Men video games to bulletpoint which games they've appeared in. Top lists and snatched sentences from reviews are not good enough to establish independent notability. - hahnchen 21:51, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Company reception

Hi! I plan to make Revolution Software, a legendary adventure game developed, a GA, and I was wondering, woukd a "Reception" section in a company (in this case, developer) appropriate. I mean, I think it would: You could write about the reception of their games (negative/positive/acclaim), if the company itself appeared on any "top developers" lists, received awards etc. I thought it would be nice, since this developed has been featured on a "top developers" list, and I would add info about their game reception (maybe add some aggregate scores), and what awards their games received. So, what do you think? --Khanassassin ☪ 13:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most articles about video game companies don't even discuss the game in depth, focusing on the company. Salvidrim! 16:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say right now the article looks more like it's about Games developed by Revolution Software than about the company itself... Salvidrim! 16:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll repeat a comment I made at the Article Rescue Squadron list: you should single out from the avaliable references what is said about the size of the team, interviews with authors, their methods... Those could are directly related to the notability to the company. Statistics about of the games themselves is not what shoul be covered in the company article; at most, for each game, the general positive/negative tendency of their reception should be briefly mentioned. Diego (talk) 17:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find reception on the actual company I'd definitely include it, but not, I think, on the games. I wrote Thatgamecompany (FA) without talking about the games' receptions, and I still think the article is pushing it in terms of talking about the games. --PresN 21:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While we're on the subject, I'm planning on working on Retro Studios soon. It looks like a generally decent article, certainly better than Revolution Software, but if anyone's got tips, feel free. Also, I think that Bungie can be useful as a general guide for these types of articles. Gary King (talk · scripts) 03:36, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for mentioning Bungie, though it still needs a lot of work. I think that there are few studios where reception of *the company* is that relevant. Focus on the games' reception. The difference might be something like Activision Blizzard, where they are well known for their profiteering ways and it's often commented on by game journos. If a company has other quirks, those should also get covered (i.e., Bungie's fierce independence and "world domination", Valve's "Valve time", etc.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 16:13, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Screenshot categories

Could we get Template:Non-free game screenshot working the same way as Template:Non-free game cover? The screenshot template supports only three platform categories (example: File:Baconing screenshot.png). --Mika1h (talk) 22:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done; support up to 8 categories. --MASEM (t) 22:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder: GDC and freely licensed photos

With GDC around again, it is worthwhile to re-mention that the official GDC photostream at flickr [2] remains CC-BY compatible, providing a great way to get photos of VG developers and other persons for game articles. If you do use them, make sure to upload them at commons, and make sure to categorize them under "Category:Game Developers Conference 2012" at commons. --MASEM (t) 05:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a way to request pictures of specific people? Salvidrim! 05:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea how one can contact photographers there, nor how to make requests. It would be good if there were any WPians that we knew were at it to do such. --MASEM (t) 05:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. I was just wondering. :) Salvidrim! 06:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are the female characters in Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat "action heroes"?

Having a dispute at Talk:List_of_female_action_heroes#Citation_needed_tags_for_obvious_video_game_cases. More input is requested. Are the female characters listed in these two game series, "action heroes"? Does the box and/or manual for these game series refer to these characters as "heroes"? Dream Focus 17:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Civilization Series

Hey VG members. There's a discussion at the Civilization V talk page here asking whether a list or table of the playable civilizations should be included in the article (essentially, whether such a list is gamecruft. Would any of you like to give your opinion? Thanks, Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 11:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe an overview of the fact there are civilizations and the difference choosing a civilization (along with one or two examples tops, to illustrate the concept) is more than sufficient to explain the gameplay element. Salvidrim! 11:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I first commented on that discussion in November 2010! Who re-animated the corpse? - X201 (talk) 11:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oosh did, and I must say it was done in good faith and with perfectly valid concerns. :) Salvidrim! 11:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Civilization Civilization Civilization II Civilization III Civilization IV Civilization Revolution Civilization V
Americans Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Aztecs Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Babylonians Yes Yes No Yes No Yes
Someone posted this as a suggestion but it did not garner much discussion; I believe it would be a healthy compromise, and stays informational (what civilizations are playable in the video game series as a whole is interesting information). Salvidrim! 23:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion involves several articles(Civilization II, Civilization III, Civilization III: Play the World, Civilization III: Conquests, Civilization IV, Civilization IV: Warlords, Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword, Civilization IV: Colonization, Civilization Revolution, Civilization V, and Civilization V: Gods & Kings). It's not so much who re-animated the corpse as it's been ongoing for well over a year now. It's looking very unlikely that a consensus is going to be reached on Talk:Civilization V#Removal of tables of Civilizations. With a new expansion announced it has the potential to get out of hand again (edit warring) so some more outside opinions would be appreciated in hopes of finally stopping the debate. I'm going to add a VG Discussion link to that talk page redirecting here as well (also, hope you don't mind me editing the topic name of this to make the link a bit more specific than "question").Flygongengar (talk) 22:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify things for WP:VG people who are coming to this blind. Its the tables like the one in this (Civilization_V#Civilizations_and_leaders) section and the table in the expansion section below that, that are being discussed. - X201 (talk) 12:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Like in Mario Kart, this kind of table belongs in the general article: Civilization (series), which compares the different Civ games in one table. As for the individual articles of Civ, Civ II, Civ III, etc. -- they do not need their own tables displaying the Civs and their attributes. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 21:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

EDIT. Ah, such a table is already there. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 21:57, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other game examples

Consider Megaman games, such as Mega Man X (video game) and Mega_Man_2. None of the Mega Man games have tables for the Robot Masters and the weapons Megaman acquires from them. Based on this pattern, Civ games should not have a table dedicated towards Civs and their attributes. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 23:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or even more applicable, SMAC (sucessor of sorts to the Civ series), which is a good article. Factions, leaders and actors are all included in prose, with sources. Table is not such a good idea IMO. Very hard to reliably source, and ends up as gamecruft (if you can include the factions, why not their capitols? and important advances? and....?) .Nolelover Talk·Contribs 23:41, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well there's no really a need to source the table. All the info contained in the table is from the game itself which acts as the source (and if you cite it you only need to cite it once at the top). Although you could list individual 1st and 3rd party sources just to prove the civ exists, it's redundant and does nothing but clutter the prose or table.207.237.208.153 (talk) 19:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Err, of course you need to source the info. If you need to use the game itself (major primary source issues here) as a reference than that's a key that the info might not be right for Wikipedia. That seems obvious to me as an answer to the question of what is gamecruft and what isn't. The fact that unique units, buildings and abilities aren't gonna be found in any RS's...well, I mean, major red flags there? Nolelover Talk·Contribs 22:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a difference between sourcing to prove something exists (a disputed fact) and sourcing to establish notability. There is no need to source the table to prove the fact that the civs exist as the game itself proves that, which is what I was getting at. Everyone of these civs have been mentioned by reliable third party gaming sites, many even highlighted in their own articles especially during the preview phase before the game is launched and a new civ is 'revealed'. One could argue that that establishes notability. I'm not addressing that or arguing either way. My point was that your point that prose is better because citations clutter up tables or is somehow harder to source is invalid.207.237.208.153 (talk) 01:14, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, the main source for the table info. would be the game manual itself. in fact, we might as well copy the entire game manual into the Wiki articles. But of course, that's not going to fly. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, exaggerate much? Just because one thing is also mentioned in a manual we should just copy the whole manual? Really? The whole point of gamecruft is the level of detail. Point 2 "Saying that a character can jump, shoot, and drop bombs is helpful to understand the game, but avoid explaining button combinations or cheat codes." Wow, you know, I bet the manual for those games mention they can jump and shoot fireballs, but by your logic we should also copy all the information like how to jump and shoot fireballs...207.237.208.153 (talk) 01:17, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Essentially, the tables must be omitted. The Wiki articles on the individual Civ games would end up mimicking that of an instructional manual, regardless of notability and the source of information. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 01:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I may be wrong here, but wouldn't leaving a table with just the civilizations fall under WP:PLOTSUM and wouldn't have to be cited? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@207: FWIW, I wasn't saying that "prose is better because citations clutter up tables or is somehow harder to source", I was saying that because of the nature of tables, it's much easier to expand them with completely unnecessary information. Not quite as much with prose. I don't mind giving examples of the civs (all may be a lot) but having those in a table will inevitably lead to exactly what we have now, and worse if not checked. Nolelover Talk·Contribs 20:06, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The single table in the Civilization (series) should be enough and acceptable. This discussion involves the tables in the individual Civilization game articles, which lists the Civilizations, leaders, special buildings/units, etc. And that's not necessary. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 00:48, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Decision Time

In order for the (Civ, Civ II, Civ III, and so on) articles to move forward. This situation must be resolved. To parallel with other games, like Mario Kart, Megaman, Mario games, their main articles like Civilization (series) do have a table summarizing inclusion or exclusion of playable characters and civs. Those tables function as summaries. That is fine. However, the individual articles (Mario Kart, Megaman, Mario games) do not have lists and tables for playable characters which includes other attributes such as abilities, skills, and other special attributes. Therefore, for the Civ games, the individual tables must not be included in Civ, Civ II, Civ III, and so on, per WP:GAMEGUIDE. It is time to follow the examples of other games in order to press forward with the Civilization articles. Otherwise, this argument will come up again. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 00:55, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just going to comment that your argument is completely flawed. It is completely irrelevant if Mario Kart, Megaman, Mario games have or don't have tables in their individual articles. One can counter this by pointing to a ton of videogame articles that do contain lists or tables on their individual pages such as articles in the MvC series, the Tekken series, the Street Fighter series, Total War series (look at Total War: Shogun 2, I see a list of the 9 factions with descriptions of how they differ--is this more "acceptable" because it's in list and not table form?), blah, blah, blah WP:OTHERSTUFF. Even your examples are weak; there's no list of Robot Masters because playable characters could be argued to have more notability than non playable ones, the Mario games rarely feature different playable characters outside of aesthetic difference. I have no problem with wanting to settle the current debate and requesting a vote but please when doing so, put forward an actual argument and not, but this other page doesn't have it, especially when it's not universal across all gaming articles.Flygongengar (talk) 23:40, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. As article listing can indeed be countered by another set of article listing. Yet, I shall take this method one step further. Let's bring in some featured game articles. What better way to cite comparison a set of articles in dispute with those marked as featured. Most of these articles lack any sort of table displaying playable "characters" and their special attributes. So, by the standard among the BEST articles Wikipedia has when it comes to gaming, the use of tables are omitted. Finally, if the tables stay, this argument will resurface in years ahead, just as this argument was fought a couple years ago. As long as this dispute remains, the quality of these Civ articles will remain sub-par. So, I ask this: Can you justify the use of tables (with misc playable character information) in the featured articles? If YES, then I dare you to add character tables to those articles with the intent of improving them. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 07:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Table or not, all of the civilizations need to be included in each article. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:51, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Check these the featured game articles to see examples of game articles without the need of doing so. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 07:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure we could both find examples of what we think is ideal for a video game article. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 07:17, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter what is or isn't in other articles. As they stand the list of Civs in the Civilisation articles goes against the WP:NOTGUIDE policy. I repeat policy. So unless there is some exceptional reason why the policy should be ignored and WP:IAR implemented, they have to go. None of the arguments for inclusion have compelled me to back their cause. And as it stands, there is no notability in the list of Civs, its just a list of playable characters and their in-game abilities. - X201 (talk) 11:30, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable source?

Is Game Nostalgia considere a reliable source? --Khanassassin ☪ 15:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not. -- GSK (t ● c) 15:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. If you would check, you will note that GN states as much sources as much as possible. See the recently added info on Revolution Software [3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamnos (talk • contribs) 16:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC) Added: and if there are no sources, the info is checked by the designers (emails available), and they aren't unhappy with it, see recently the bio of Steve Ince, mentioned at his Facebook page [4]. If GN should improve something in this respect, just drop a line.[reply]

It's not all about the sources – Wikipedia has rather strict guidelines on self-published sources. The interviews should be okay, but most of the other stuff probably isn't. However, Khanassassin, if you can come up with a good reason that it should be a reliable source, go ahead and bring it up at WP:RS/N and hopefully we can get it accepted as a RS. Regards, Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't sure if it is reliable, so I wanted to check. So, if it isn't reliable, it isn't reliable. :) --Khanassassin ☪ 15:37, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you mean, but "the other stuff probably isn't" is a bit of guessing. As said, often facts are being checked by the original designers (by email), and so the features, or parts of the facts about games, bio's, credits etc. include - besides sources - direct info from the persons involved. It would be a bit strange to include their emails on the site. But as said, I understand what you mean, and it is OK with me (and others). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamnos (talk • contribs) 21:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • This discussion should be held at WT:VG/S. Salvidrim! 22:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for your insightful contribution to the discussion, Salvidrim. Gamnos, I understand what you are saying too, but if the authors of the site (I'm guessing you are one of them?) aren't recognized in their own right, we can't accept it as a reliable source. It's a great policy for areas like the one I work in (old warships), but we occasionally run into problems like this one with more modern material—i.e. in the internet age. If we have a specific point on which we can say it's reliable, I'd be happy to bring it up on the reliable sources noticeboard (RS/N) or its video game-specific equivalent (the VG/S linked above) so we will always have a discussion to point at when other editors shout "it isn't reliable!" in the future. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Everything Mafia

Can someone lend me a hand please. User:Afiq1998 has been linking Mafia related articles on, what appears to be, the basis that they have the word Mafia in the title. At first I thought it was a confused newbie, but it now looks like a deliberate attempt at misinformation and disruption. They've been busy overnight could someone lend a hand and keep an extra pair of eyes on them please. - X201 (talk) 08:48, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted the vandalism and CSD'ed the created page as a hoax; see its talk. Salvidrim! 08:58, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Seems the editor has taken some notice and is now reacting violently and continuing the vandalism. I'll be around to monitor for a few more hours to see if it continues. Salvidrim! 09:15, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Twilight Princess box art

Wouldn't be necessary to leave the Wii version cover art in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, or we just go for the GameCube one Talonmalon333 recently uploaded? --HOUNDER4 (TALK) (CHANGES) 22:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neither. According to the project guidelines, "If the game was released for multiple platforms with a similar cover, a cover without any platform-related logotypes should be used by editing the cover picture in order to create a platform-neutral picture." ~ Hibana (talk) 23:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the way the boxart is designed this should be rather easy to do by cropping a part at the top. Or are these kinds of modifications not allowed? Salvidrim! 02:49, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Its OK as long as you aren't making Massive changes. extending a little or cropping a little isn't a problem. Super Mario Galaxy 2 had a problem in that we had the original art without any logos but in between the time the art was published and the time the game was published an extra star had been added near the number 2. The art that is now in the Super Mario Galaxy 2 article is a merging of the two pieces of art. - X201 (talk) 08:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I found a logoless image of the Twilight Princess cover art, without the titlecard. (Source) Notice however the Wii cover is colorless; the NGC cover is colored. Same overall size but the scaling is different also; the NGC cover is slightly scaled up. Even with platform-specific information removed, a choice will have to be made between the two versions. Salvidrim! 09:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would say use the Wii version. It has been up for years and it was actually the first version that was released since it came out in the US before any other country. It was also the first version to be released in every other country except Japan. Finally, other the the difference in colour I see no major difference to merit replacing an image which has been up for years.--70.24.208.34 (talk) 23:08, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also before anyone asks I know that the Wii version was ported from the GC version but I believe that this is one of if not the only time that the ported version of a video game was commercially released before the version it was ported from so I think we should make an exception in this case.--70.24.208.34 (talk) 23:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The image was last tweaked 3 years ago, it does the job. We can all sit and quote blue-links and release dates at each other or just say hey, it ain't broke, let's fix one of the millions of things which are. I prefer the latter where possible. Someoneanother 00:34, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree that the Wii version was released first, thus should be used; in any case, why bother fixing stuff that works? Status Quo's good enough. Salvidrim! 04:47, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. "Don't change it" applies here. Didn't realise about the colour difference. If you can come up with a platform neutral version that you all agree on then change the image with consensus. If there's no consensus then the "Don't change it use the first uploaded version" applies. - X201 (talk) 11:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of Persona 4 characters content issue

User:Ryulong has been adding more wp:game guide content to List of Persona 4 characters although it was previously discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 91#Persona 4's arcana that such information was not significant for the characters. Despite already reverting his edit, Ryulong once again reverted my edit and keeps adding such information. I want to avoid edit warring, but it has still happened in the past with the same user. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 22:48, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've put in new real world information regarding the animated series as well as the Japanese names for the Arcana. The information exists in other forms on similar character lists, anyway. Tintor2, your only argument is that the information is not significant. I have shown that it is significant to the games, the characters, and the animated series. Simply because it is a game mechanic does not mean that the content I have added is WP:Game guide content.—Ryulong (竜龙) 00:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't happen to play the game at all. So, I may take a look. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 00:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You have added everything without any citation at all and once again reverted edits before even ending a discussion. The way it is now the list has excessive confusing Jargon such as what is Social Link or arcanas in the characters? There is no explanation to what means that "Izanagi is from the Fool Arcana". How is that necessary to explain Izanagi? Just because other articles that require clean up show this type of information have this, it doesn't mean that they can be used.Tintor2 (talk) 15:33, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If there's sources out there confirming/explaining how the the different arcana's affect the gameplay, then I'd think it should be left in. If it's literally just being listed off as "X player is Y Arcana", then I'd think it should be removed until it's importance can be verified... Sergecross73 msg me 15:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no source dialogue in the game that says that "Izanagi is from the Fool Arcana." Furthermore, the Social Links would still be unexplained in the list and if we add what it is, it's just adding more information about how the game works. Even the long summaries from List of Persona 4: The Animation episodes or any information from Persona 4 Arena make no mention of social links or arcana. The only article that talks about the arcanas and social links is Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 in order to explain the gameplay's mechanics.Tintor2 (talk) 16:01, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if arcanas/social links have no implication in this particular game, then I'd agree with you, it doesn't belong. If/as soon as it could be sourced that it does affect this game though, it seems like it'd belong in there. Sergecross73 msg me 16:07, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tintor2 is mistaken. There is indeed dialog in the game that states this information. The animated series does mention the arcana/social links, during the lead-in sequence and in the ending animation, which is why I added it to the article. It could be sourced to this particular page, or even the dialog in the games such as the source brought up last time. And the only reason none of the Social Links are mentioned on the episode list is because you Tintor made such a stink about it and removed it yourself. You are the only person who has had any preference to remove the content from the pages. They were there to begin with, you removed them, and I have been trying to reincorporate them. Tintor2 is misrepresenting the games, as the Tarot motif is a central one to all of them. Sergecross73, you should try to look these things up on your own, because Tintor2 never gave me a chance to respond to this thread before he removed all of the content, again. I will be adding references to the article to suffice for the new information.—Ryulong (竜龙) 19:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, Ryulong added a lot of undue weight to the Persona anime list just to add the five second segment about arcanas making the list a bigger mess to what it used to be. The episodes list's talk page already had a discussion about how the summaries were a mess in detail, so don't go blaming me for lack details. Second, you keep reverting all edits despite not reaching an agreement and having the same discussion in January, and now you add vague references to justify them (they don't say who is the magician, what is the magician, what is does the Fool mean to Izanagi, etc.). They may be significant for the gameplay but they aren't for the characters' stories. Social Links are still unexplained words in capitals while arcanas don't anything at all to the Personas' names.Tintor2 (talk) 20:31, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't go telling me to look anything up, do your own work sorting out the actual content. I just offered neutral, general advice about whether or not it should be included in theory, because I'm familiar with the series. Sergecross73 msg me 20:53, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tintor2, it's not undue weight when it's part of every single episode, and particularly when it is only a sentence or two at best. Everything is now reliably sourced to the show, featuring the commentary. And the references are not vague. The show explicitly shows the tarot cards in conjunction with images of the characters in question. It's just not something that can be quoted. It seems that you are doing anything in your power to make it so that the content cannot be added, when I have worked for the past 2 hours to get exact quotes and times for everything. It's all sourced, it's all shown to be integral to the games (I don't have the time to go and find someone's playthrough to get exact quotes from the game) and anime. And the relevance of the Tarot motif is described in detail in Persona 3, but I do not currently know where I would go about to find it. Sergecross73, I apologize for my accusatory statements earlier.—Ryulong (竜龙) 21:18, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Intended symbolism of the Arcana found and added to character list.—Ryulong (竜龙) 22:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the problem. The arcanas and social links are still unexplained to the readers who are going to read it, making it confusing jargon. Just try using common sense and avoid assuming bad faith. Their significance make as much impact to the characters as their heights and weights. Why bother doing a two hour search when you were already told two months ago about this? Besides, you already rewrote every episode's summary about four times and I remember that you even told me not the edit the episode list. About three editors found the length excessive and even tried to copyedited only to have their edits reverted.Tintor2 (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's defined on the page and probably also on Persona 4. Again, your opinion on the significance of this aspect of the game is just that, an opinion. And consensus can change. I've vigorously sourced the content I've added, showing that while you won't see a mention of Kanji's height or Chie's blood color in the game or anime, the Social Link and Tarot Arcana mechanic/feature is ever-present. I've incorporated it in a way that's not intrusive in the article, and covers everything in a multimedia fashion, including the way that the development team views the motif (albeit through their script for Persona 3). Also, Tintor2, the only decision that was made 2 months ago was maybe a new article could be written, but this has been incorporated better and with reliable sources. And I do not use the word "Social Link" in regards to the various Arcana. I just say "X serves as the link to Y Arcana", an explanation of Arcana from P3, and the Persona used by Yu in P4A from that Arcana. Perhaps this information would be clearer on the article if you hadn't decided to do a total rewrite of the page in December which removed the information you now say the page lacks for my content to be acceptable.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:35, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again with the same opinion thing rather than being using arguments? Anyways, I have already added a three sentence explanation of what a Social Links and how it affects the Protagonist in his own section with a reference straight from the game, so Jargon will be less difficult to understand what does it mean that "X represents such arcana to the protagonist." By the way, I don't like rewrites especially since my English is not good so I rarely write new content.Tintor2 (talk) 15:11, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've made my arguments, and all you have said is that you do not think the content is necessary or it's undue weight.—Ryulong (竜龙) 17:05, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Capital letters on New Game Plus

Hey everybody,

I dropped by to ask for some advice. I feel that the article New Game Plus (and its content of course) should be 'new game plus' and not 'New Game Plus' and proposed a move. Wikipedians Masem and Axem Titanium (I'm sure you know them) say I'm wrong here, so if you would please join our discussion, we might come to some consensus. Please see Talk: New Game Plus#Request move. Thanks. --Soetermans. T / C 16:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mass Effect 3 Metacritic User Reviews

Hey everyone. Over at Mass Effect 3 there is a rather lively discussion going on about the use of meteoritic user reviews. It (seems) to boil down to experienced editors saying they are not RSs as they are self published, and SPAs saying they should be included. (I am simplifying some, but please take a look, I think I am being fair). We could use a few more eyes there. Thanks everyone. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm uncertain which section is the active one at this time, but the same debate took place in the COD: MW3 article, and ultimately the user reviews were kept out of the article. -- ferret (talk) 14:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That said, I am pretty sure that the fact there were a rash of negative user reviews that MC stepped in to remove is news-worthy (that facet I've seen reported). This was similar to the case in Portal 2, where media sites commented on the highly exaggerated claims made by the user reviews for that game, possible as in retaliation for other things. In other words, don't focus on the reviews as critical reviews but the impact the user reviews had (in this case, causing MC to step in and change things). --MASEM (t) 14:30, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to also be sufficient coverage of the fact that a section of players want Bioware to change the endings, with many reliable sources covering it, such as [[5]]. It's all about reliability and notability in the end. Metacritic user reviews directly is a non-starter. Reliable sources covering user feedback and trends? I'd say it's worth consideration of inclusion. -- ferret (talk) 14:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, as long as our normal RS's are reporting on any user-backlash, that's fine to include (though again, strive for unbiased coverage). We just can't take user-generated commentary (user reviews, user petitions, forum posts, etc. etc.) as the starting points for these. --MASEM (t) 15:03, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone! Dbrodbeck (talk)

Screenshot deletion

I recently added this screenshot. It has been nominated for deletion because it is suggested that it doesn't provide contextual significance. I wrote a caption that includes the locomotive which is mentioned in the article. Shouldn't the article have a screenshot and isn't it appropriate? - Shiftchange (talk) 13:56, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The screenshot says nothing about the gameplay; it's not even something that could be in prose, the screenshot literally gives no information whatsoever. It's an image of some train on some tracks; looking at it, I have no clue what the game about. Fair-use Screenshots are not meant to be decorative, but to aid in explaining the gameplay. Perhaps an image of the menu, or with some form of HUD (or any actual information) would fill the role more. Salvidrim! 14:19, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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