Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

Read this before proposing new or expanded criteria

WP:NEWCSD

Contributors frequently propose new (or expansions of existing) criteria for speedy deletion. Please bear in mind that CSD criteria require careful wording, and in particular, need to be

Objective: Most reasonable people should be able to agree whether a page meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific.
Uncontestable: It must be the case that almost all pages that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to consensus. CSD criteria should cover only situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Remember that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect, unless you word it carefully.
Frequent: Speedy deletion is intended primarily as a means of reducing load on other deletion methods such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Proposed deletion. These processes are more discriminating because they treat articles case-by-case, and involve many points of view; CSD sacrifices these advantages in favor of speed and efficiency. If a situation arises only rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and fairer to delete it with one of the other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible, and avoids instruction creep.
Nonredundant: If the deletion can be accomplished using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. New rules should be proposed only to cover situations that cannot be speedily deleted otherwise.

If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page.

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CSD G5

Hi,

I've looked at criterion G5, which says that pages created by banned or blocked users should be deleted. Shouldn't it be just pages created by banned users should be deleted? I mean, it seems slightly redundant to say that pages created by blocked users should be deleted as blocked users cannot create pages.^King Jakob _C2 15:01, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It means that if someone is blocked, evades the block with a sockpuppet and creates a new page, then the page can be deleted under G5. Hut 8.5 15:02, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then shouldn't it say pages created by sockpuppets of banned or blocked users?^King Jakob _C2 15:06, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Short and sweet is best.—Kww(talk) 15:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that the user has to be a sockpuppet. If the editor is allowed to edit, but a WP:TBAN prevents the editor to create certain articles, then G5 probably applies if such articles are created anyway. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:14, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict × 2)There are types of bans that do not involve blocks. In some situations an editor can be banned from editing any articles about a certain topic. If an editor were to create an article about that topic then it could be deleted under G5, even though the editor wasn't using a sockpuppet. Hut 8.5 15:15, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict × 2) I agree. Although, it's funny, I was just thinking of suggesting that we include "SPI ^confirmed _suspected" links after the name of the user in question on the G5 template. — PinkAmpers &^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 15:16, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't say that "pages created by banned or blocked users should be deleted"; the actual text of the entry is "Pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and which have no substantial edits by others. G5 should not be applied to transcluded templates." Notice the boldface wording: it already covers the situations under discussion. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:29, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PinkAmpersand: SPI is not required, and would be a substantial burden on the handful of administrators that focus on sockpuppeting. SPI is a way for editors to gain administrative attention and for administrators to gain checkuser attention. It is not, and has never been, a mandatory component of dealing with sockpuppetry.—Kww(talk) 16:03, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, yes, I'm aware. But since G5 is possibly the speedy tag it takes the longest for an administrator to review, I think SPI links could be useful if they exist. Something like

({{#ifexist:Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/{{{1|}}}|[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/{{{1|}}}|SPI]]}} <sup>{{#ifexist:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of {{{1|}}}|[[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of {{{1|}}}|confirmed]]}}</sup> <sub>{{#ifexist:Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of {{{1|}}}|[[:Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of {{{1|}}}|suspected]]}}</sub>)

after the link to the sockpuppeteer's username in the deletion tag could do the trick rather nicely, I think. — PinkAmpers &^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 16:19, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've got no objection to the template expansion giving a handy pointer to a reviewing admin.—Kww(talk) 17:15, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since {{Db-g5}} is only semi'ed, I went ahead and boldly added the SPI links. WP:BRD is of course welcome, as are any improvements to the syntax I used. Oh, and I also threw in a {{gender:}} parser, since "his or her ban or block" is a pretty awkward phrasing. — PinkAmpers &^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 09:40, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2nd related proposal

The criterion G5 could just deal with pages created by "accounts not permitted to edit", which would apply to both sockpuppets and banned users. How does that sound?^King Jakob _C2 21:58, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think that's less clear than the current wording. Hut 8.5 22:55, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But also less confusing in another way; "pages created by...blocked users" makes it sound like blocked users can edit/create pages.^King Jakob _C2 23:51, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But it's clear what "blocked users" is referring to. Putting "accounts not permitted to edit" isn't going to be a very good explanation to anyone who isn't familiar with our banning and blocking policies, unless you go on to explain that the phrase means banned and blocked users (but if we do that there's little point in changing it). Hut 8.5 09:31, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've steered clear of this criterion in practice so far. I am uncertain about it and its application. Does 'banned' apply to site bans only or to topic bans as well? Can a site banned editor edit other than by use of a sockpuppet? (Yes, I have just reread the policy...) Would it be possible for the tagger to share their knowledge of this sockpuppetry by identifying the puppetmaster? I sometimes see cases where this tag is used, but there's no indication on the author's page that they are a sockpuppet, or even are suspected as a sock. Peridon (talk) 11:04, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There is a grey zone between legitimate use of alternative accounts and illegitimate sockpuppetry. Worse, accounts playing in this grey zone often create worthwhile content and interweave with others. Speedy deletion of such pages could be very clumsy. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If someone is banned, does that not apply to their alternative accounts too? From what I read in the policy, site ban is site ban, no matter what the quality of the editing. The site banned user is cast out of the community to wander in the wilderness and is not allowed to return even to weed the cabbage patch. (But things they planted before the ban was enacted are not to be trashed out of hand.) Illegitimate sock accounts get indef blocked, but the master may only get a temporary block. Anything done during the block period that they are responsible for is presumably a block evasion and to be dealt with appropriately. Someone with an active legitimate alternative account is not, to my mind, truly banned. Peridon (talk) 12:34, 19 February 2013 (UTC)Inserted list format for clarity.^King Jakob _C2 12:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In response to User:SmokeyJoe, we could consider half-legit-half-sock accounts on a case-by-case basis. And if an article genuinely improves Wikipedia, then it should, of course, be kept (I consider G5 to be more to do with articles that are less wonderful; if we delete an FA by a banned user, that just seems a bit punative).^King Jakob _C2 12:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The 2nd proposal refers to sockpuppets without specifying that the person behind the account was blocked or banned. Also, I don't see the problem with the current wording. Block & Ban evaders are already subject to G5, which allows immediate deletion on the judgment of a single admin. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If a user is topic banned, than he isn't covered by "accounts not permitted to edit"; if he creates an article on the topic in question, it should be G5-able. This point was made in this edit. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 22:00, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I never liked G5. I rarely delete anything on the basis of G5. In fact, I have declined numerous G5 nominations because the article content was worth keeping. Good content is good content regardless of who created it. The times I recall deleting anything with a G5 tag, I deleted for other reasons (obvious hoax, vandalism, non-notable subject, promotion, insignificant content, etc.). I don't see G5 as a valid deletion rationale. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then please don't interfere with its application. If you don't like a CSD category, ignore the requests instead of declining them. Bans apply to all edits, good and bad.—Kww(talk) 21:38, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I often do ignore them. However, a slavish adherence to the letter of a deletion criterion to the point where it is misapplied, does not benefit this project. When I see what appears to be G5 being abused to remove perfectly good content as some sort of "punishment", you're damned right I will "interfere" with its application. Abuse of speedy deletion criteria requires that we "interfere" with their application. The content of an article should determine whether or not it is kept, not the author. People also abuse G6 to circumvent the WP:RM process; and I "interfere" with that application of G6 on a regular basis. Similarly I will continue to decline any G5 nominations that give the appearance of being doled out as punishment. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:05, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
G5 is intended to get rid of the contributions of banned editors. The content of an article created by a banned editor is completely and absolutely irrelevant. It's not wrong to apply the criteria as intended.—Kww(talk) 15:26, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, the identity of the author of quality content is completely and absolutely irrelevant to a decision about keeping that content. Wikipedia does not foster (last I heard) a culture of punishment. As Ego White Tray says below, just because you can delete something doesn't mean you should. I agree that g5 is useful for deleting borderline stuff that may otherwise waste the community's time with the AFD process, and I do delete those, but far too often I see G5 nominations that obviously constitute slavish adherence to a deletion criterion that wasn't intended to be abused in that fashion. Heck, I've even had to decline G5 nominations on articles that were created before the author ever got blocked. ~Amatulić (talk) 04:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification As I understand it, the criteria is that it can be deleted if it was created in violation of the block/ban. So if the creation of the page violates their block or ban, it qualifies. So if an editor creates an article, and he has a topic ban against on the topic of that article, it qualifies. That said, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The existing wording is clear enough. —Psychonaut (talk) 13:15, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Soft redirects to foreign-language Wikipedias

Recently Concarril, a soft redirect to es:Bombardier Transportation México was nominated for speedy deletion under criterion WP:CSD#R2 (Cross-namespace redirects) by user:Steel1943 and deleted under that criterion by user:RHaworth.

There is a consensus that "Soft redirects to non-English language editions of Wikipedia should be avoided because they will generally be unhelpful to English-language readers." (from Wikipedia:Soft redirect), but other projects are not mentioned anywhere in the R2 criteria. Expanding R2 to explicitly include other projects, or the meaning of "cross-namespace", to include other projects would not be good because soft-redirects to other English-language (e.g Wiktionary) or multi-lingual (e.g. Commons) are well used and should not be deleted.

Accordingly if we want them to be speedy deletable then we should either explicitly add Soft redirects to non-English projects to R2 or as a new R4 criterion. I am not aware that they are a common issue, but equally I am not aware that any have ever been kept. Thryduulf (talk) 16:19, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This began at Wikipedia talk:Redirect#Question. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:24, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Thryduulf's analysis. Redirects to non-English language editions of Wikipedia seem to fall logically under R2. This should be added explicitly. - ʈucoxn\^talk 01:10, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the transclusions of {{Interwiki redirect}} I can see that there is a actually an acceptable use of soft redirects to non-English wikis for user and user talk pages, so those namespaces should be excluded. Thus I think the wording should be something like

wikipedia:Soft redirects to non-English Wikis from any namespace except the User: and User talk: namespaces. This does not apply to soft redirects to multi-lingual wikis such as Meta or Commons.

Given this has different namespace restrictions to the existing parts of R2 and requires different clarification, I'm now thinking this would work better as R4. Thryduulf (talk) 10:20, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're right. R2 seems to be a housekeeping criterion, while we're talking about a distinctly different reasoning, where redirects are removed due to language/intelligibility concerns. I, for one, would gladly support an R4 for redirects to a Wikimedia project in another language. Van Isaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 11:00, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be good to do this. How about:

R4. Interlanguage redirects in article space.

Any redirects (including soft redirects) from the main namespace to a non-English edition of Wikipedia, or to another non-English wiki (for example, French Wikibooks). This criterion does not include pages in any other namespace, nor does it include redirects to any English-language projects (such as Wiktionary or Wikivoyage).

— This, that and the other (talk) 22:39, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's generally good, but I'd include all namespaces except user and user talk and explicitly exclude multi-lingual wikis:

R4. Interlanguage redirects.: Any redirects (including soft redirects) to a non-English edition of Wikipedia, or to another non-English wiki (for example, French Wikibooks). This criterion does not include pages in the User: or User talk: namespaces, nor does it include redirects to any English-language project (such as Wiktionary or Wikivoyage) or multilingual projects (such as Wikimedia Commons or Meta wiki).

I think the explicit exclusion of multi-lingual projects is vital, but I'm prepared to support restricting it to article space if others prefer that. Thryduulf (talk) 15:05, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why we can't allow interlanguage redirects in other namespaces, but then again, I can't think of a reason why we would ever need them in, say, project space. I just felt more comfortable covering article namespace only, since it is obvious that they are never wanted there.

I also think that if R4 only applies to mainspace, then redirects to the multilingual wikis should be disallowed, as they are akin to cross-namespace redirects (Meta is like projectspace, and there is no reason to redirect from mainspace to Commons). But if R4 applies to all namespaces, the multilingual wiki exception should stay, since soft redirects from projectspace to meta, etc. are very important. — This, that and the other (talk) 23:58, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there will be many cases where we use soft redirects from the main namespace to multilingual wikis, but as there might be some and the reason foreign language wikis aren't useful targets (not helpful to English speakers) doesn't apply they should be discussed on their merits not speedily deleted. Thryduulf (talk) 00:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

True; I don't have a problem with that. — This, that and the other (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

R4 proposal

Well, we have a new CSD criteria proposed for inclusion... I think it would be a fairly uncontroversial inclusion, but obviously policy changes need consensus, and WP:SILENCE is weak... are there objections to this proposed text of R4? — This, that and the other (talk) 06:36, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

R4. Interlanguage redirects.: Any redirects (including soft redirects) pointing to a non-English edition of Wikipedia, or to another non-English wiki (for example, French Wikibooks).; This criterion does not include pages in the User: or User talk: namespaces, nor does it include redirects to any English-language project (such as Wiktionary or Wikivoyage) or multilingual projects (such as Wikimedia Commons or Meta-Wiki).

Support as co-proposer. Thryduulf (talk) 17:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note I've left notes about this proposal at Wikipedia talk:Redirects for discussion, Wikipedia talk:Redirect and Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) to try and attract some input. Thryduulf (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; shocking as it may seem, there are still some English speakers who can understand a foreign language or two. There shouldn't be automatic redirects to non-English pages (if that's even technically possible), but soft redirects ought to be left in place, on the grounds that something is better than nothing. (Obviously replacing them with a stub article is much better, but deleting them won't help that to happen.) Victor Yus (talk) 17:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support though this situation doesn't arise very often (and I suspect it would be better included as a special case of one of the other criteria), it is suitable for speedy deletion. Our target audience is English speakers and all of our content is written on the assumption that the reader is an English speaker. Foreign language redirects are useless to the typical English speaker and discourage the creation of English articles at those titles. Wikipedia:Soft redirect discourages the creation of such redirects, and I can't think of any situation where one could be useful. Exactly what constitutes a redirect to a foreign language article is unambiguous. Hut 8.5 18:56, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the editor who originally thought that these types of redirects fell under the CSD criterion R2. Articles belong on the version of Wikipedia that corresponds with the language of which it is written. If an editor has the desire to translate an article they find on a foreign language Wikipedia, go for it. The inclusion of redirects to foreign language Wikipedias would only serve the purpose to confuse readers. Steel1943 (talk) 19:10, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure where any of you lot are coming from. You may not know foreign languages, and they may be useless to the "typical" English speaker, but they are useful to some English speakers, and harmless to the others. Also such redirects may encourage the creation of an article - more so than a vacuum will, anyway. The soft redirect template could be worded so as not to be confusing, and indeed can include an encouragement to create an article, possibly based on the foreign-language one. Taking such links away and leaving nothing whatever in their place seems to me to be prima facie unhelpful and destructive. (That someone here "can't think of any situation where one could be useful" is bizarre - does it really not fit into your world view that someone reading English Wikipedia might also be able to read another language? Of course people could search the foreign-language Wikipedia directly, but not everyone has such detailed knowledge of the wikisphere to realize that such language versions exist, to know where to find them, or to appreciate that the articles are not in 1-1 correspondence - and anyway, why make it deliberately harder for them?) Victor Yus (talk) 06:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The argument that "they are useful to some English speakers and harmless to the others" would also apply if someone tried to insert foreign language text into one of our articles. Foreign language material is fundamentally inaccessible to the vast majority of our readers. (Even if one of our readers does speak a foreign language that information is useless unless they know the right foreign language for the material.) The community has already decided that these redirects aren't appropriate. Hut 8.5 08:27, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But these are not text - these are links - and we DO insert links to foreign-language Wikipedias in our articles! It is bizarre and illogical to say that we can have such links when we have an article, but can't when we don't - it is the latter situation when the link in question is more likely to be useful (since there is nothing else for our reader to read). If "the community has decided" (i.e. two or three people possibly decided once) that these links aren't appropriate, then the community should think again, which is the purpose, I would have supposed, of the present discussion. (Well I agree they aren't really appropriate, since there "should" be at least a stub article - but they are decidedly better than nothing.) Victor Yus (talk) 08:46, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually they are worse than nothing, because a blue link disguises the fact that we are missing an article - see WP:REDLINK. The argument that a redirect to a foreign language is useful also breaks down when there is more than one non-English version available - although a German-language article is more likely to be understood by an English speaker than say an Armenian one and a featured Japanese article more useful than a stub Mandarin one, how do you decide which one of similar standard French, Spanish and Italian articles do you choose to redirect to? The possibility of including interlanguage sidebar links on non-existant pages is outside the scope of this proposal. Thryduulf (talk) 12:17, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the redlink argument, but don't think it can carry much weight - it would be an equally valid argument for deleting any redirect (except synonyms I suppose). But if there is more than one non-English version available, it is surely better to link to one of them than to none of them?!? The template could even be programmed to say that links to other language articles might be present on the one we're linkng to. Victor Yus (talk) 08:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Spend some time at RfD and you will see that the redlink point comes up very frequently - redlinks encourage the creation of articles we want, bluelinks discourage the creation of ones we don't (duplicate articles, synonyms, spelling differences (e.g. colour/color), information already covered in a section on an existing article, BLP1Es, things notable only in the context of a larger subject, etc). Having the information that is displayed when a page doesn't exist linking to existing articles in other languages is a good idea (it's a MediaWiki page rather than a template though), and Wikidata may make this possible (I don't know) but it is not relevant to this proposal as it would apply to every redlink and remain a redlink rather than being a (soft) redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, if the creator of the redirect is sufficiently knowledgeable about the topic to define the English language title is equivalent to a non-English article; they are sufficiently knowledgeable to create a referenced stub about the subject in English, which can easily be populated with the inter-langauge link. If the creator is unable to create the stub then the person is presumably insufficiently versed in the subject to make an accurate redirect. Any other failure of a stub (WP:AfD, etc) is likewise sufficient reason to delete the redirect. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But he might have just been too lazy or busy to create the stub. Deletion isn't for punishing creators; it's for getting rid of useless stuff, which this plainly isn't, as I've continually argued. Victor Yus (talk) 08:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A redirect to a foreign language is useless for everyone who does not speak that specific foreign language - consensus has been clear on this point as long as I've been an editor (since December 2004). This is no more about punishing creators than any other criteria (go look at G2, G5, G11, G12, A1, A7, A9, A10, R3 and T3 for ones more likely seen to be "punishing" editors). Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not!! If consensus has been clear on this point in the past, then it is so no longer, because it is a plain ridiculous assertion. A redirect to Portuguese is not entirely useless to me, even though I don't speak Portuguese. To someone who does speak Portuguese, it is potentially extremely useful. It really doesn't help the discussion to keep repeating claims that we can all see are absurd. Victor Yus (talk) 10:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support per all comments above. That said, we should have some way to point red links to similar articles in other languages. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Caveat Not having thought this through to the point of a definite opinion, the current proposal lacks any mention of edit history. If there is actual content underneath, the redirect shouldn't be deleted speedily unless the content itself is speedible. The other issue is lack of alternatives as a prerequsite, in lines of the A10 clause and the sense that there mustn't be an obvious target for a redirect here. --Tikiwont (talk) 17:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree fully with that, but does it need to be specified given it's just a standard application of WP:BEFORE? Thryduulf (talk) 23:38, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as a stand-alone rule. My only real objection here is that I think it fails on frequency. That is, it is not a common enough problem to merit yet another criterion. In nearly four years as an admin I don't believe I have ever encountered such a page or even heard of one existing until this very discussion.Beeblebrox (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- If you read the discussions that resulted in this proposal it is discussed that it is indeed infrequent, but they are always deleted when they do appear, sometimes incorrectly shoehorned into a criterion, sometimes IAR deleted (something that should never be acceptable), and sometimes via RfD. It is proposed as a separate criterion rather than as part of another one as there isn't a suitable one - the only one that comes close is R2 but that is about redirects internal to en.wp, applies only to the main namespace only (this is everything except user and user talk) and excludes various namespaces (which this does not). Integration would therefore be cumbersome and decrease the clarity of both the existing and proposed criteria - particularly with something as potentially controversial as speedy deletion were the exact wording is important we need to strive for the greatest clarity we can. So unless you can come up with something we've missed, the options are either having this as a stand-alone rule or not having this rule. Thryduulf (talk) 23:38, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I get that, I really do, but the purpose of CSD is to reduce the workload of XFD discussions. If these are only created on a very infrequent basis I don't think it is worth it to have yet another rule. It may seem like rules are free and have no cost to the project but the more rules we have the less likely it is that they will all be followed, per WP:CREEP and deletion criteria are often used to try and trip up admin candidates, which I could easily see hapening with a rule as esoteric as this one. Rules are meant to solve problems, and I just don't think there is enough of a problem here to warrant a new one. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Usually I would be agreeing with almost everything you said (RfA is very broken, but as WereSpielChequers frequently points out, it is an open book exam, so there is no reason for anyone who knows the existence of the criteria page to get "tripped up", anyone who doesn't know the page exists or doesn't refer to it when they aren't intimately familiar with a criterion or situation is not ready to be an admin. The brokenness of RFA is irrelevant to whether this criterion is necessary or not though) but these redirects are being speedy deleted out of process as it is so the status quo is not working and needs fixing. Given that the consensus is always that these should be deleted then the best way to stop the out of process deletions is amend the process so that they are within it. If we don't enact this criterion then we need to add words to the effect that "this criterion does not apply to (soft) redirects to other wikis" to R2 to make it clear these need to be deleted at RfD. Thryduulf (talk) 01:29, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this isn't a very popular opinion of late but I am comfortable with just going ahead and deleting them out of process. We used to have a thing called ignoring a rule if following it in a specific case was a detriment to the project, but your own remarks reflect the oft-expressed opinion that this is never ok when it comes to speedy deletion. This seems to me to be the crux of where we disagree about this. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:04, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The part of IAR that doesn't often get mentioned is that it is better to change a rule than to repeatedly ignore it. Policies are meant to be descriptive of consensus, so when they are not in agreement it is time to change the policy. CSD is especially important for this because of the way deletion works - there is consensus that admins may not delete anything without consensus, CSD is just a list of very the limited cases where it is agreed that consensus in a deletion discussion will always be to delete so it does not need to be explicitly affirmed each time. Deletion in any other circumstance is not in accordance with consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as written but I would support a more limited criteria: A hard-redirect to another-language Wikipedia may be deleted. The case of a soft-redirect with little or no explaination is arguably already covered under criteria A3: No content. Where there is a soft-redirect accompanied by some meaningful, encyclopedic test, the article should not be speedy deleted under either this proposed criteria or under A3. Instead, it should either be turned into a stub with an interwiki link, PRODded away, deleted under some other speedy-deletion category, or, preferably, improved into a "real" article. As with any SPEEDY criteria, the case of previous edits existing is already covered by the understanding that speedy-deletes that could be rolled back to a previous non-speedy-deletable version should be declined and as such should never be made in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidwr (talk • contribs) 01:54, 27 February 2013‎ (UTC)[reply]

A3, no content, only applies to articles, and a redirect is not an article, so it does not apply in this case. Ego White Tray (talk) 04:00, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that depends on whether you consider a softredirect a redirect or an article for the purpose of speedy-deletion criteria. The answer may vary depending on if it has additional text or not, and if so, if that text is encyclopedic and on-topic. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A page is a soft redirect if it contains a link to another page and no information about the subject, whether or not it explicitly calls itself a redirect or soft redirect. If it contains information about the subject, at all, then it is not a redirect but an article with a see-also link. As currently set up, hard redirects to other wikis do not work and are soft redirects, see user:Thryduulf/R to other wiki for example. Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support as with the others above, I can't imagine a single case where this would be useful. It would end up looking like a blue link, and as such set back the creation of the related article. I'd like to prohibit in-text linking to the foreign-language articles too, but that's for another venue. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:39, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly can't imagine how any intelligent person could be unable to imagine how this would be useful. Am I living on another planet? Some people can read foreign languages, honestly. And even if they can't, they still might be able to glean some pertinent information from the target article - birth and death dates, for example. And using Google Translator, a lot more. And surely, by providing links to an existing WP article on the topic, they actually make it a lot easier for someone to create an article on the topic. It seems incredible to me that people can't see this, and just want to zap the useful links. Victor Yus (talk) 08:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See above for where I have explained how foreign languages are not useful and how blue links disguising the absence of English content are harmful. For extracting birth and death dates and highlighting the existence of other language articles you have good ideas but you are arguing in the wrong place. You should be making a proposal to display this information automatically on non-existent pages by making use of Wikidata - it would seem to be a perfect fit and far more useful than necessarily manually finding and creating a redirect to another language version of Wikipedia which is guaranteed not be understandable by the majority of readers. Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2013 (UTC)\[reply]

See above where I've explained how foreign languages are useful, and how links to foreign language articles may well assist (rather than hamper) the creation of English articles. Victor Yus (talk) 10:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Everything you've said has been making a case for including links to other language articles on redlinks (and I agree with you that they would be useful), not why manually created redirects to one other non-English language are useful to readers of English - you might be able to extract birth and death dates from Portuguese biographies, but when was تخت سلیمان built? What club does Steve Tikolo play for? Why is Ludwik Natanson notable? How high are the Munții Lăpușului? Thryduulf (talk) 13:30, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

With either a little language knowledge (which many of our readers will have) or judicious use of Google Translate, I could answer all these questions. If in some cases I (or the reader in question) couldn't, then that's too bad - Wikipedia's not perfect. But you must surely see that in many cases a link to a foreign-language WP article on a subject will be useful (not only to readers, but also to editors planning to create an English-language article on the topic). In no case will it really harm anybody (except in making redlinks blue, but that happens on stub-creation too, and I believe the benefits in this case - a pointer to an existing (foreign) WP article and its references - well outweigh any harm to article creation). So there isn't really any purpose to be served by deleting such a "redirect", unless the deleter plans to replace it with something better. Victor Yus (talk) 17:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Again you are missing the point - a list of links to content on other wikis for people who can read that language are probably useful but they are not redirects. See the discussion at the village pump where adding these is being discussed. What this proposal addresses is redirects and soft redirects that (a) disguise the fact we don't have any English-language content and (b) dump readers expecting English content onto a page that is either in a different language (violating the principle of least surprise) or appears broken. Also remember that we should absolutely never require people to use external websites or tools to view our content as they are not available in all places or on all devices. Thryduulf (talk) 20:00, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've already said I don't support hard redirects to foreign-language wikis (I don't even think they're technically possible, but if they are they should be converted to soft ones). A soft redirect is essentially the "list of links" that you say is probably useful, in a situation where the list only contains one item. There are several things that might be done in a given situation to make such objects serve people better, but thoughtlessly deleting them (which is what this proposal would encourage) simply cuts the link and makes it harder for everyone in the future to gain any of the potential benefits provided by the existing foreign article. Your argument about "external websites" is not really pertinent - again, no-one's saying that this content (or any other content) will be useful to everybody, but it will be useful to a significant number of people, since a significant number can understand something of the foreign language, and a very significant number more (nearly all) have translation tools tools available. The others click the "Back" button, as they would on clicking a redlink (not everyone knows Wikipedia color-coding) or a link to a mini-stub. Assuming there are even any links to the title in question; it might serve merely as a potential term to enter in the search box. Victor Yus (talk) 07:42, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I have a bit of an addition to make to my previously metioned oppose. If this new CSD criterion gets passed, there should be a section in the description that recommends and suggests to editors to create at least a stub-class article (instead of creating the cross-language WikiPedia redirect) if there are no articles that currently exist on the English Wikipedia that contain enough information for the term to be reasonably directed towards. In this scenario, editors will have an article to add onto, and readers will have something to read that is in English. This could serve a greater purpose than having a reader/editor being redirected towards an article that is not in their native language (or, for that matter, a language that they can understand at all), or not being able to find any information about their topic due to the article not existing/being a red link. Steel1943 (talk) 04:48, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Absolutely creating a stub or retargetting to an English article/page should be preferred, but is that not just standard WP:BEFORE and WP:ATD? Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would say "Yes"; however, since I was once a novice editor, once upon a time and while trying to become familiar with Wikipedia policies and guidelines, I made some careless bold edits and decisions. Lucky for me, there was/is an established Wikipedia community who was able to help me figure out how to find the resources on here to make wise and helpful edits. With that being said, what I'm suggesting is that if/when Template:Db-r4 and Template:Db-r4/doc are created, due to the nature of this criteria, I'm recommending that a note be placed on both suggesting that the article be attempted to be "stubified" first... Actually, that just gave me an idea about verbiage that should be added to the redirect text ... my recommended change will be in BOLD and placed below DGG's current comment. Steel1943 (talk) 05:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But if you make speedy deletion the norm in such cases, then there will be no time to consider "alternatives" to deletion - Admin Zap will just come along with his ray gun and blast away. Victor Yus (talk) 10:51, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When evaluating a speedy deletion nomination an admin is supposed to consider whether it is valid or whether other alternatives exist. If the admin isn't doing this then the admin is at fault not the criteria. Thryduulf (talk) 13:30, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the Victor and Thryduulf show, contrary to what appears to be your belief, this is not about the personal beliefs either of you hold. Your constant commentary on every opinion is neither desired nor helpful. Why don't you two pick one or the others talk page to discuss this relatively minor discussion in full detail. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:29, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support in concept but not wording because it doesn't go nearly far enough. It should simply say that any redirects going to *anywhere* other than English version of Wikipedia should be deleted. DreamGuy (talk) 03:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That would also cover things like soft redirects to the English Wiktionary (e.g from Building site and per annum), Commons and from project space to Meta (e.g. Wikipedia:The Wrong Version). I personally couldn't support speedy deletion of them. Thryduulf (talk) 09:36, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: This needs to be thought out further Where we do not yet provide information on our WP, we should if possible provide links to it on other WP projects. But we need to do this with judgement. It is not reasonable to make an ordinary redirect, which takes English-speaking readers without warning to a page in a language they may not read. At the least, it must indicate the language, and this would require a special redirect function of some sort to be used. Perhaps the simplest would be a link to an intermediate landing page--I think a template could deal with the necessary function. But in any case each case may be different, and it is not somethingthat should be done for any one are direct without community consultation. Some will be obviously wrong, but it will require a knowledge of both the subject and the target knowledge, and that issomething which we do not require of admins. A speedy criterion shouldbe one which any admin can apply and get it right, not one that requires such qualifications. DGG ( talk ) 04:24, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Something very like this is being proposed regarding incorporating interwiki links on non-existent pages, see Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Redlinks that still point to other languages and d:Project chat:Interwiki links for non-existent articles. Thryduulf (talk) 09:36, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*Recommended change to verbiage on criterion. I gave this a bit of thought, and I was thinking the criterion could read something more like this to avoid unnecessary deletion of redirects:

R4. Interlanguage redirects.: Any redirects (including soft redirects) pointing to a non-English edition of Wikipedia, or to another non-English wiki (for example, French Wikibooks) that cannot be reasonably redirected towards any existing article on the English Wikipedia.; This criterion does not include pages in the User: or User talk: namespaces, nor does it include redirects to any English-language project (such as Wiktionary or Wikivoyage) or multilingual projects (such as Wikimedia Commons or Meta-Wiki).

...any thoughts on this possible addition to the criterion? Would the additions possibly change some "Oppose" votes to "Support"? Steel1943 (talk) 05:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If such wording were added to R4, it should by analogy be added to all the A* criteria. I really don't see the point of adding it here and I find the objections based on this rather bizarre. It's standard due diligence (not specific to this proposed criterion) to check if a page should be redirected before CSD-tagging or deleting it. And in the end it hardly matters: if the page is deleted, then a redirect can always be created in its place later on. — This, that and the other (talk) 09:18, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to it per se, but given that it is implied by almost every criterion (basically everything except G5, G7, G9, G12, F8, C1, C2A and U1 - see WP:BEFORE and WP:ATD) it would seem to weaken the requirement for doing so on the other criteria. Thryduulf (talk) 09:36, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. However, I'm starting to agree with a few of the editors who are either "Unsure" or "Oppose" regarding the fact that the wording for the criterion needs to be changed in one way or another. After reviewing the wording, it honestly does seem like blanket removing all redirects towards foreign language Wikipedias might be a bit too much ... unless something can be done that involves Wikidata to solve this issue, as mentioned below. Steel1943 (talk) 02:16, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion has been going on for more than a week now, and the replies have started to die down. Have we reached a verdict? Steel1943 (talk) 04:54, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Verdict at this point is no consensus. The current proposal would not seem likely to gain consensus as written. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:24, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that what this discussion has shown clearly is that there is a desire to link non-existent articles here with extant equivalents in other languages. There isn't a consensus for how best to do this, but I suspect that interwikis/wikidata is the way forward most likely to get somewhere. My feeling on this proposal is that it's a no consensus now but should be reconsidered when the interwiki issue is resolved one way or another. Accordingly I strongly encourage those interested to take part in the linked discussions at the village pump and at Wikidata. Thryduulf (talk) 23:22, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Redlinks that point to other languages

I just started a thread at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Redlinks that still point to other languages asking if having redlinks point to other languages is possible. If this could be implemented, I would assume any objections to making the redirects would be gone. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't there once a feature that made links to stubs (or articles below a certain length) show up a different color? That would be useful here, since the situation of a short English stub is very similar to the situation of an existing foreign article - there is some information potentially available (so we don't want to imply to readers that there's no point clicking the link), but because the information is not good quality (it's in the wrong language, or there isn't enough of it) we want a way of flagging that editorial work is badly needed. Victor Yus (talk) 17:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have that turned on, but I added it so long ago I don't remember where I got it. It's some sort of user script that makes shorter articles show up as as a sort of purple of very dark red when linked to. I imagine you could find it at Wikipedia:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Anomie's linkclassifier is what I use for that. It colors stubs purple, and does a bunch of other things, too (articles considered for deletion are pink, dab pages are highlighted in yellow, redirects are green, etc.). It's handy, and I like the pretty colors. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, the {{Link-interwiki}} template should be used. The equivalent template is used liberally on frwiki to indicate a good translation source. Example: {{Link-interwiki|lang=fr|lang_title=Centrale du Rapide-Blanc|en=Rapide-Blanc Generating Station}} would render like [[{{{1}}}]] []. - Bouchecl (talk) 06:26, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There might be some way to integrate such information into Wikidata, since that seems to be where all of the foreign language links are headed towards now. This question might be directed more towards someone who has actually used Wikidata (since I have not): is there a way, or allowed, for Wikidata to have information stating that, let's say, a article on the French Wikipedia would reasonably exist on the English Wikipedia as a certain name, even if it is a redlink? Then, if that article exists on a foreign language Wikipedia, but not on the English Wikipedia, it could have a note like the one in Bouchecl's comment above? I'm thinking a resolution might be able to come out of answers to these questions. Steel1943 (talk) 05:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Redlinks that still point to other languages and d:Wikidata:Project chat#Interwiki links for non-existent articles. Thryduulf (talk) 09:37, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should/does G11 pertain to redirects with promotional names?

I recently tagged a redirect for speedy deletion due to criterion G11: The best South Park episode. I did this while not 100% sure that this article would have qualified for it. The name of this redirect made it seem only to exist to promote the article in which it directed, and served no other purpose. I was wanting feedback to see if this was a valid article/redirect to tag with the {{db-g11}}; however, I never received the opportunity due to an administrator speedy deleting this article, but in the notes, performed the speedy deletion due to criterion R2 R3; however, this redirect was over a year old, and should not have qualified for that criterion. As an RfD, this discussion was listed here. I never received an answer to my question regarding the G11 criteria due to this being deleted for a CSD criterion I did not post. So, in a case like this, would this redirect qualify for G11? And if the consensus is "yes", should we add to the current description of the G11 criteria to specifically state that redirect names qualify for this criterion as well? Steel1943 (talk) 01:33, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, that's an interesting question. As a general rule, I would agree that redirects like that should definitely be deleted, and that in a commercial context, DB-g11 would be a good fit. For your specific situation, I think there is merit in actually going through an XfD for the redirect, because there could, theoretically, be good sourcing for redirects like "Best Star Wars movie" -> "The Empire Strikes Back#critical reception", and other promotional or subjective redirects. Van Isaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 01:40, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it qualified for a G11, because the purpose of that criteria is by design applicable to articles only. CSD needs to be very narrow, and it would set a bad precedent to start applying it to stuff because it seems that it 'fits'. I would have used a {{db-custom}} with the explanation that the redirect was essentially violating WP:POVNAMING. As for the age, I wouldn't necessarily consider it more than the number of incoming links, and whether or not the impact of the deletion could be softened with a round of mass semi-automated AWB edits (which I've done before when working with disambiguation pages). No comment as to why the admin would use R2 though. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 01:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I meant R3. (I'll have to fix what I said so it makes sense.) Steel1943 (talk) 01:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I'd agree with keeping that "Best Star Wars movie" example, most "bests" are pretty subjective, and as any such general class of redirect is going to be a festival of promotional horse-hockey. Still, I wonder if there's enough of these that it's worth speedy'ing them, are there many? --j⚛e decker ^talk 01:45, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The speedy criteria are intended to save time by expediting handling of common, uncontroversial situations. They should not be expanded to cover rare or hypothetical situations. Those can be handled by the regular deletion mechanisms if they don't fit an existing category.--agr (talk) 01:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The general CSD apply in general to all namespaces including redirects and I don't see neither a reason why G11 would be exempt nor a need to mention this specifically. If a redirect only serves as promoting something or if they are being spammed across the board, I'd delete them per CSD G11, an example being all brand names by a minor company being redirected to the respective general product. The south park example is more of the fan-cruft type would not fit that bill imo. --Tikiwont (talk) 11:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that I would agree with keeping the "Best Star Wars movie" example, either. The problem is, I'm not entirely sure that I wouldn't agree with keeping it, either. I think that some of those subjective redirects could, theoretically, be properly sourced and survive an XfD. I'm not giving an over/under on it, but I think it's worth hearing what editors have to say, and I'd absolutely love to see the evidence they can bring to bear. It'd definitely be a fun XfD to watch unfold. Van Isaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 11:31, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is a complete misunderstanding to say that "the purpose of that criteria is by design applicable to articles only". If it were, it would have an A for "article" at the beginning, not a G for "general". User space pages, for example are very often deleted under criterion G11. in fact my guess is that the proportion of user page deletions that cite G11 is probably far higher than the proportion of article deletions. Absolutely any page of any sort can be deleted under CSD G11 if it is purely promotional, and while I cannot remember a case of a redirect being deleted because of a promotional title, there is absolutely no reason at all why that shouldn't happen in an appropriate case. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:47, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I regularly delete article talk pages, user pages, user talk pages and sandboxes under G11. I too can't recall using it on a redirect, but I can see no objection to it. As JBW says, it is a G class criterion and applicable to anywhere. (I've probably used the 'implausible' thing instead...) Peridon (talk) 12:55, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just like Peridon, I use G11 applicable to promotional pages in other than article space (in addition to the examples he gives, I & others have been using it very selectively in WP Talk space for AfCs that are outrageously and hopelessly promotional, though it's necessary to be relatively tolerant there for articles that might get improved). But I also agree with those who said that a redirect like this should go to RfD, because people might reasonably disagree on it. DGG ( talk ) 23:27, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should the redirect plausably serve any navigational purpose (such as a redirect from a somewhat well-known ad to the company/product it's for), then WP:RNEUTRAL should apply; if it clearly doesn't, it should be G11-ed; in borderline cases, go to RFD. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 21:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletions, adequate evaluation of candidates for deletion, and appeal process

My brand new stub article created less than 12 hours ago and with only one revision (the initial revision) has been deleted under this policy and under the wrong deletion criteria. I don't think the cache even cleared to include my rebuttal on the talk page before it was deleted. So a few things come of this: 1) This policy mentions, but does not appear to state any process for an editor like myself to appeal the deletion. 2) This policy should require this: "Before nominating a page for speedy deletion, consider whether it could be improved, reduced to a stub, merged or redirected elsewhere, reverted to a better previous revision, or handled in some other way." and nominators and administrators must be held accountable to it. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 04:26, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Deletion review? Vegaswikian (talk) 06:57, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, we don't use DR for speedy deletions. If you think a speedy deletion is made in error, you should contact the deleting administrator. If you want to simply retrieve the content of the deleted article you can post at WP:REFUND. — This, that and the other (talk) 07:07, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I misread Deletion Review (DRV) is a forum designed primarily for disputed deletions and speedy deletions. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, the poster is right, this is confusing. DRV says that you can use it "if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed", so I suppose it is the step to take after attempting to contact the deleting admin. This needs to be clarified in several places. — This, that and the other (talk) 10:01, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the template message left on the creating editor's page, in this case User_talk:Sborsody#Speedy_deletion_nomination_of_K-Arrow_Ranch, I see it takes several sentences to explain about what to do between the addition of the Speedy tag and the disappearance of the page (which may be from one minute upwards), and only one sentence, the last, on what to do after the page has been deleted. For a novice editor who probably doesn't spend a lot of time online, that last sentence should perhaps be made more prominent, at least by splitting it into a new paragraph. It should also include, perhaps "If you wish to challenge the grounds on which it was deleted ...", as this is not mentioned (it just says "If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here.") The above discussion shows that there can be uncertainty, even among experienced editors, about the correct procedure to follow. Bear in mind that a novice editor will not necessarily know how to find out which admin deleted the page - it's not obvious that clicking on the red link to the page will get you anywhere, as red links usually don't go anywhere. PamD 08:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at WP:DRV, I note "Before listing a review request please attempt to discuss the matter with the admin who deleted the page as this could resolve the matter more quickly. ", so it's all the more important to make sure that the inexperienced editor is told where to find out who the admin was. PamD 09:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the article has been userified by another admin; it is now at User:Sborsody/K-Arrow Ranch . I consider it not to have been a correct speedy deletion, but unless better references are added, it will never make it in mainspace. The problem of writing clear directions for notices that will be accurate without overwhelming the user has defeated everyone at WP. Perhaps we can think of some way of having the information actually be customized programatically--it should be easily possible to automatically send a notice to the user when an article is deleted, giving the name of the admin who did it. Sure, we admins would have to deal with a good many more appeals that way, but first of all we'd have a chance to explain and perhaps guide the user to a sustainable article--and it is even possible that some of the appeals might be correct. The need to give people time to finish has been in conflict with the need to delete the undobubtable utter junk quickly. I know I make errors, though I hope they're rare--but I can only fix the ones people tell me about. DGG ( talk ) 05:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Bsr

Not sure where to discuss this, but {{Bsr}} could use some updating. Does this follow a policy or guideline about hotlinks/vague sources? What it currently link to was removed years ago. « Ryūkotsusei » 11:06, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a reasonably well-used template that tags an image about problems with its sourcing ... a quick perusal of "what links here" shows a good number of recent tags using it. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:25, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, he's talking about the link to Wikipedia:Citing sources#Images, which is not a valid section within that document, and contains exactly zero information pertinent to the BSR tag. Van Isaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 10:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

user:Train2104

Train2104 (talk · contribs) is doing drive-by-tagging with {{di-no source}} on many images with sources, and on images which are {{PD-simple}} or {{PD-text}}, therefore not needing sources to be kept anyways. It seems like a high degree of lack of attention, not bothering to read the actual file description page. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 04:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This issue was brought up to the user almost an hour after this post was left here; the user responded to it there. Unless the user continues after the date of these posts, there is no need for any further action anywhere. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 18:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed new criterion: abandoned article drafts

I would like to propose a new criterion: article drafts abandoned for over a year. Article drafts, such as declined WP:AFC submissions, potentially contain unsourced statements and are completely unmonitored. The archives have hoards of them. Virtually all of them would be quickly speedied or prodded if they were in article space, but they sit peacefully undisturbed forever in the archives. --B (talk) 18:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A related discussion has already taken place at Wikipedia talk:Articles for Creation#Procedure_for_abandoned_failed_submissions. I proposed a new CSD criteria "G13 : Abandoned drafts A page not in article space that is clearly a draft, but violates any article related speedy deletion criteria, and does not appear to be actively worked on". Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 18:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Better idea - when introducing article criteria, we say "the following criteria apply to any article, or any draft that has not been edited in over a year" No reason to create a new deletion criteria. Ego White Tray (talk) 18:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really keen on having quantifiable time periods, like a year, six months, three and a half weeks etc, and would prefer to leave it to general discretion and common sense about when to apply a certain criteria. Also, a proposed G13 would deal with userspace sandbox articles for people who have left Wikipedia and forgotten about them. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 18:56, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

These are two different problems. Yes, something speedyable as an article should be speedyable as an AFC submission. I don't think it needs a separate number, but just a statement at the top of the articles section that article standards apply to articles in whatever namespace they reside, with the understanding that accommodations are made for in-use article drafts. No time limit for those is needed - and if you're just making an AFC submission about your kid who placed first in the spelling bee, there's no reason to wait any time at all. But while that's a very useful thing, that's not what my proposal is about - my proposal is is for things that ARE NOT OTHERWISE SPEEDYABLE. Meaning, it's a bio piece where an assertion of significance sufficient to not qualify for A7 has been made. But just because it's not speedyable doesn't mean it needs to exist. All or substantially all abandoned submissions, if they were in article space, would be quickly disposed of with either {{prod}} or {{blp-prod}} tags. The fact that they are sitting in AFC space keeps them from being prodded. That is the problem I am trying to solve. --B (talk) 19:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To explain what I'm talking about, I picked a few arbitrary samples from the archives:

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/NVIATWAS - I have no idea what the hell this is, but it isn't a person, animal, organization, web content, or event. It would be nice to be able to delete it without having to jump through a lot of hoops.
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Sara Marwari High School and College - high schools are explicitly excluded from A7, but this one has no g-hits other than Facebook, Google+, and Wikipedia. So while it's not speedyable, it would be prodded very quickly if it were in article space.
Wikipedia:Articles for creation/The Truth (doctrine) - This submission proclaims The Truth (tm) of Jesus Christ. Though we prefer to discuss religion in a neutral manner, religious exhortations are not speedyable.

Now, I did find a gracious plenty more articles that are speedyable, including one attack page that I just took care of. But the existence of speedyable articles shouldn't stop us from also coming up with a rule for other abandoned articles. --B (talk) 20:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I lean towards agreeing. I think this was last discussed as Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_46#Can_an_Article_for_creation_submission_be_speedied_under_an_A_criteria.3F (September 2012). I commented there in favour, subject to strict time factors.
I think an AfC submission could be speediable if (1) It was reviewed and unambiguously failed; and (2) it is old, old both since creation date and since last meaningful edit; and (3) the author has been offered the option to userfy and is informed of the option of requesting their deleted content emailed (this calls for a templated message).
As some people sometimes forget, it should be reminded that just because something *can* be speedy deleted, it doesn't mean that it *must* be deleted. Speedy deletion authorises an admin to make a unilateral decision on their own judgement and act on it.
On the other hand, nearly everything useless could just be blanked. Put it behind a template explaining that this is old content, submitted and rejected, unlikely to be of any use to the project. Leaving this cleanup to blanking means that any editor can do it, any other editor can review it, and undo it, and the process doesn't need CSD policy-level rules. Disputes (very rare in practice) can be resolved at MfD. Actually offensive material is covered by the G criteria. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to this proposal if it were restricted to AFC submissions. I can see problems if it applies to userspace drafts, though. Some userspace drafts serve as convenient references for someone (I have one of these myself that I haven't edited in over a year) and while they would not survive main article space, should probably be kept in their respective user spaces. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I also disagree to this applying to userspace. I more so disagree with it applying to an once productive editor, and extremely so for an active editor. Maybe ambiguous about users that were briefly active long ago and never made a lasting productive edit. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For user-space drafts, if the editor is even semi-active, the logical and polite action is to send a note to the editor saying something like: "I that User:Example/PageName in your user space hasn't been edited since May 2009. Are you still working on it, or is it time to delete it?" Summarily tagging other people's user pages for speedy deletion is not polite -- and, therefore, not a real smart idea. --Orlady (talk) 01:51, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How about only allowing user-space drafts to be speedied only if the user has not edited in over a year, the page is unambiguously intended as a draft article (in other words, we're not using this as an excuse to clean out userspaces), and the page would be subject to speedy deletion if it were in article space? So I'm proposing these two rules, which I think meet both needs:

U4. Userspace drafts of inappropriate articles.

Pages in userspace that are unambiguously intended as article drafts, where the user has not edited in over a year, and where the page would be subject to speedy deletion if it were in article space.

G13. Abandoned Articles for creation submissions.

Rejected Articles for creation submissions that have not been edited in over a year, provided that if the user is still active, they have been notified at least one week prior to deletion. Note that failed submissions that meet a general criterion for speedy deletion, such as spam or violations of the biographies of living persons policy should be deleted immediately without waiting one year. If an article submission is written on an otherwise appropriate topic, but was rejected for lack of sources or a similar concern, consider improving it rather than deleting it.

Comments? Yeas and Nays? Changes? --B (talk) 04:40, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how a G13 would be a speedy if you have to give a week's notice - isn't that a form of prod? Otherwise, U4 and G13 look good. If someone hasn't edited for a year, they're not likely to suddenly take things up and turn the 'abandoned' draft into an FA. If the thing IS showing a good potential, it should be rescued if possible. There should be some way of notifying willing rescuers of the existence of candidates for completion. Peridon (talk) 16:08, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A delayed-action speedy isn't unprecedented; see WP:CSD#C1, WP:CSD#T3 and most of the F criteria. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:36, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just for clarification, my suggested notification on G13 was only if the user is active. If the user hasn't edited recently, I completely agree - no need for the bureaucratic step - just delete it. I'd be perfectly okay with phrasing it as a courtesy rather than a requirement. --B (talk) 19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about this. I don't think abandoned draft should be covered by speedy deletion in most cases. It's not uncommon for an abandoned draft brought to miscellany for deletion to end with a "move to article space" - some of these drafts are good enough to be presented as articles, and I don't want to see any speedy deleted. So, U4 should not include A7 " no significance" and A9 "bands". G13 has massive concerns for me, but since it's more of a wikispace than a user space, I would be a little more amenable to speedy deletions there. Ego White Tray (talk) 01:48, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A9 isn't 'bands'. A9 is non-notable recordings by non-articled artistes. Non-notable musicians are in A7. What I see this proposal's intention as is to eliminate the crap and actually get the good drafts finished. I could see active editors agreeing to deletion if they really aren't going to finish a draft, or to agree to someone else finishing it (as with an user space draft article Bragod that I started and Nikthestunned found a year later and dug up the references for). (I've no objections to anyone adding to my Ailish Tynan start-up too...) Where there's stuff that's by editors that were SPAs, or who have now jumped ship, leaving unfinished material, it needs triage. Admins that work in CSD are mostly quite good at deciding if something is unredeemable crap or has potential. There are editors who enjoy rescuing things - I pass stuff over to two or three now. One even turned a piece that appeared to be pure spam into a sound article following a very polite request for help from a desperate beginner. (Unusual, that - would-be advertisers mostly try to tell us the rules and how they don't apply...) I'd like to see the good stuff rescued - and the crap dumped. It could be possible to get a Rescue Project (or just a Category) going where things could be listed for the rescuers to get going on. Sort of the opposite of Speedy Deletion - Speedy Rescue. Think about it. Peridon (talk) 11:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get working on that category. Cobalion. Setting Justice everywhere.active 11:37, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is the Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron and its Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron/Rescue list (it formerly had a template that I believe placed articles in a category, but due to canvassing concerns, it was replaced by the list). isaacl (talk) 14:05, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. I already started a village pump thread. Cobalion. Setting Justice everywhere.active 17:33, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Or you could have a standalone PROD template for badly written abandoned drafts (like {{BLP prod}}) Cobalion. Setting Justice everywhere.active 11:26, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose U4. I don't think that enough old userspace drafts are uncontestable and frequent enough to justify a CSD criterion. To my memory, of the number of userpages nominated at MfD, a large proportion is contested, and never has the number been so terribly great. I excluding some cases of mass nominations from the userspace of particular users, but I note that this U4 criteria could easily be misused to attempt to avoid difficult discussions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

weak support G13. On G13, there are indeed a great many old and failed AfC submissions, so many that they would overwhelm MfD, and when cases have been nominated, the failed content has been typically unimpressive. Not always completely worthless though, and so anyone applying G13 would have to practice some discernment. Ideally, I think, an admin preparing a mass exercise of G13 should send some test cases though MfD just to be sure. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Require mandatory notification of the deletion on the talk page of the AfC author, to ensure a minimum record of AfC submissions by the user (for non admins to find). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:47, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate idea I think deleting obviously abandonded AFC submissions that haven't been touched in a year could easily be incorporated under the umbrella of "housekeeping". That is exactly what it is, after all, just taking out the trash. Or, a bot could simply run a script that detects all declined AFC sub,missions that have not been editied in six months and it could PROD them. If the creator is still around and still cares they can remove the PROD. In the much more likely event that they are not around and do not care it will be deleted a week later with a minimum of fuss, so essentially the same thing could be accomplished withput adding a new criterion here. Don't get me wrong, this is a real issue, I just think there may be existing processes that can dal with it with just some minor tweaks. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:34, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose encouraging such a broadening of G6. Using G6 would make it so much harder to track such deletions, we may as well do away with logs. If there is no consensus for this G13, then to bypass this consensus-finding discussion is wrong. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:59, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That would cut out any chance of rescue unless you've got a very discriminating bot. I'm quite happy with prod, because there is a lot of utter rubbish there despite what the retentionists think. And there's probably still some attack stuff, BLP violation and other such in there too - although a couple of editors have been winnowing out quite a bit of chaff that was unredeemable and should have been tagged when it was first seen. I'm not so sure about using G6 unless it has been established as a matter of policy that abandoned for over one year AfC stuff is sweepable up as housekeeping and deleting it is not vandalism. There are a number of editors who seem to regard AfC contributions as sacrosanct and to be preserved for all time against the return of the author. One year is to me a sign that they're not coming back. They might have been in hospital or jail - OK, someone can undelete if that's the case. They're more likely to be worrying about other things... Peridon (talk) 19:44, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is not housekeeping, period. Housekeeping is about cleaning up problems, and never about deleting content (unless you forgot after a deletion discussion) Ego White Tray (talk) 12:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose U4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thine Antique Pen (talk • contribs) 18:44, 10 March 2013
Support G13 without the notification of the editor(s). No objection against people voluntarily giving such notification, but to make this a requirement makes the process too cumbersome and slow. We are dealing with articles that have been proposed, have been rejected, and haven't been touched for a year or longer. No reason to let these linger around any longer (we have thousands of these, older day by day cats list on average about 40 to 45 articles). Fram (talk) 13:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support G13 - I think a year is a long time in AFC. I'd say after 6 months we should approach the submitter, and either userfy the draft or delete it. On the other hand, I would oppose U4. A year isn't that long for an established editor - some people take extended Wikibreaks and still return. And things can languish as drafts for a long time and still be turned into articles - I just took adraft I hadn't touched in two years and turned it into an article. MFD is always an option for userspace drafts. I'd be hesitant to allow speedy deletion of something that's otherwise acceptable after just one year of inactivity. Guettarda (talk) 16:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both No, a speedy criterion is not the right way to handle either problem. While it may offend some people that drafts are hither and yon, it's not actually a problem. Jclemens (talk) 06:07, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- If this is not the right way, then what is? Many of the 20,000 or so really old AfC drafts are spam, a significant portion are copyright violations; we can spend a lot of time checking them one by one, or we can make it easier and simply delete the older ones. What is the problem with doing this? What valuable contributions are being lost by these deletions, and do they outweigh the benefit of getting rid of lots of problematic content? Fram (talk) 14:59, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Any unmonitored space is somewhere that libel or other controversial content could be hiding. Yes, something with libel can already be deleted right now today, but if whoever reviews the submission misses it, then it stays there forever. We have a vested interest in keeping unmonitored spaces as few as possible and there's no upside to keeping clearly inappropriate article drafts around. --B (talk) 13:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment With reference to the remark about 'established' editors - how many established editors use AfC? I would think the vast majority of the users there are new accounts (and probably SPAs) or IPs. I concede that established editors may have stuff in their cupboards for a long time and just a polite message might revive their interest in something - or result in a U1... Peridon (talk) 10:14, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I would venture to say that zero established editors use AFC. Maybe one or two created their first article that way, but that's the rarest of rare exceptions. I picked out ten random articles from Category:Declined AfC submissions. One was created by a named SPA. The other nine were created by IP users. --B (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - That was (sort of) the point of my comment: if, after six months, we can track down someone who made an AFC submission, then it's worth seeing if they're interested in doing anything with the draft. If we can't, and no one else has shown interest, then we shouldn't feel badly about deleting the draft (IOW, it should be speedy-able). I suppose tagging them, and putting them in a prod-like category, might also be a useful idea...that way, people who were interested could monitor the category and turn them into articles, if they saw something that really interested them. Guettarda (talk) 18:29, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - I can't imagine for the life of me why anyone thinks we need to keep the 381 pages in Category:AfC submissions declined as BLP violations‎. That's insane. Ditto for the 985 pages in Category:AfC submissions declined as jokes‎. We can talk about having some kind of reasonable review process for articles that are conceivably on an appropriate topic but only lacking in sources ... but there's 87,956 declined AFC submissions and the overwhelming majority of them are utter junk. It's unmaintained and unmaintainable. --B (talk) 20:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support G13 there are an awful lot of declined AfC submissions, they have very little value (it certainly isn't worth sorting through them one by one), they could contain problematic content, and nobody is maintaining them. Hut 8.5 20:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As an added note here, if it would allay the concerns of those who don't want some sort of mass deletion, we could have an orderly process where we slowly creep up the deletion date. So the ultimate target is to delete year-old AFCs, but we start out deleting ones from 3 years ago, then 2 years 11 months, 2 years 10 months, etc, so that there is opportunity for those who wish to to review them. We could also hit the obvious ones first that should have been speedied to begin with (like the jokes and obvious BLP violations, which are speediable now anyway) and use a PROD-like process for anything that is a less obvious case. --B (talk) 20:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative Proposal #1: Apply PROD to all drafts

Some people above have touched on this idea, but I think the real solution here is to apply PROD to article drafts. As many people above have notices, speedy deletions generally shouldn't apply to article drafts, since they're not done it. Obviously there are exceptions, such as copyright violations and attack pages. There is no harm in PRODing it for seven days to see if anyone objects. It also would automatically give a place for the rescue squad to look for drafts with potential. Ego White Tray (talk) 12:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure PROD scales up to tagging tens of thousands of drafts, which (iirc) is what the actual figure of abandoned ones is. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 12:56, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PROD on unwatched pages is just a CSD under another name. The word "Proposed" implies that someone will read/review it. As no one would review thousands of unwatched AfC failures, the word "proposed" is inappropriate. PROD is inappropriate. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, one word of caution here ... don't let "perfect" be the enemy of "good enough". Yes, right now, there's a backlog, but once that backlog is worked though, PROD would easily handle it going forward. And while yes, SmokeyJoe, you're right that nobody is going to have these articles watchlisted, is that really any different than most articles getting PRODded now? Besides, a PROD guarantees that at least two people review it (the nominator plus the admin) and that creates an opportunity for one of them to decide that the article is worth moving into article space. Under the current system, nobody EVER is going to review the articles and they will sit there completely unmonitored, potentially containing libel or unsourced claims, until the end of time. I think allowing them to be prodded is the perfect compromise solution. I would propose, though, that we still maintain the time requirement - that it only be allowed for article drafts abandoned for some time - for the sake of not biting new contributors (ie, you make an article draft and five minutes later someone slaps a tag on it). --B (talk) 13:28, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's a false pretense about PROD in this case that I find wrong. No one will review them, and/or prodding will damage the existing article PROD system. Pretending that there will be a PROD review means that prodders may not feel they need to act with full responsibility. The CSD G13 path is more honest. With CSD criteria, we can demand that the admin is sure the requirements are met, requirements that I think should be: the draft is long untouched; the original author is long inactive, a note is made on the original authors usertalkpage (if registered). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:20, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative Proposal #2: An orderly process

I'd like to propose alternative proposal #2: an orderly process. This should allay the concerns of those who don't want to risk useful content being lost in a mass effort.

Remind reviewers that general criteria apply to AFC submissions and that unsourced BLPs with a negative tone, jokes, and similar wholly inappropriate content should be deleted on the spot, not blanked and left in place for years.
Gradually start G13 out at 3 years, then slowly tick it up to 1 year. This keeps CSD from being overwhelmed and allows for articles to be reviewed before deletion.
Allow only "clearly and indisputably unencyclopedic topics" to be speedied under G13 - everything else has to be PRODed. This will allow for things that might be usable to be reviewed prior to deletion.

Submitted, --B (talk) 20:57, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend a mass MfD nomination of a narrow time range of very old declined AfC submissions, or even from a worse subcategory, to demonstrate (test) an overwhelming consensus that on a case by case basis the community approves their deletion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
87,956? Ye gods! That's way worse than I thought It would be. OK, I'll go with AP2 G13 and prod. I presume there'll be some provision for anything that's potentially usable after a bit of work? A sort of open access incubator for fostering rescuers. While we're at it - how about unreviewed submissions? The stuff people started while bored and forgot about after something more entertaining came along? Are there many of them that are obviously dead ducks? Peridon (talk) 23:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think if we use the dated categories, those would catch both the unreviewed submissions and the failed ones. If there are any unreviewed submissions (and I think they would be few and far between), they could be handled more carefully and promoted to articles if of sufficient quality. --B (talk) 23:59, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

G13

Just a procedural point, do we have consensus to add G13 to WP:CSD, or does it need to go to an RfC first? We certainly need to check the precise wording of such as a criteria very carefully. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 10:16, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would think the greater community would require an RfC for something like this. Many people in the community are not aware this discussion is taking place. 64.40.54.205 (talk) 11:00, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]