Wikipedia:Teahouse

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Help Wikipedia

Edit link

It seems I have made some (settings) changes recently, and the "edit" link is right beside section header (not at the corner_. I can't figure out what changes I made! --Tito Dutta (contact) 06:38, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Tito, I think the Wikimedia (or whoever runs and owns Wikipedia) set the thing like this. I haven't changed any settings in a while, but today I log in I also see the [edit] button right beside the section header. Cheers. Arctic Kangaroo 06:49, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, okay, here is a screenshot --Tito Dutta (contact) 06:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Arctic Kangaroo 07:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

If you want to put it back as it was, put

span.mw-editsection { float:right; }

into your /common.css file. - David Biddulph (talk) 07:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Worked perfect! Also meta:Change to section edit links --Tito Dutta (contact) 09:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks for that link Titodutta, I was curious too. I thought it use to be a gadget that did that, but apparently not. Perhaps one should be made? Gadgets can be simple css code too. Technical 13 (talk) 11:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

my entire screen no longer looks like Wikipedia, what should I do?sincerly, zeroro 14:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

What are the problems you're having, Zeroro? It could be due the recent UI changes, or it could be a problem on your end. We'll probably be able to help you better if you can tell us the details. Chamal ^T•C 14:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

nevermind it just took a while for that to take effectsincerly, zeroro 14:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

What to do?

I have edited the Infobox of this page but it is not appearing in after the edit. What's wrong?Zince34 (talk) 06:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Zince, welcome to the Teahouse! I just checked the infobox on that page, and I don't find anything wrong. Happy editing! Arctic Kangaroo 06:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Artic, and did you click edit, go to the edit page and see column 5, i.e test cricket?Zince34 (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

 Fixed the documentation of Template:Infobox cricketer. Perhaps you want to check that everything is fine? Cheers. Arctic Kangaroo 07:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

But the article remains the same!Zince34 (talk) 07:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Zince, but I'm not very good at handling this sort of tech or code. Perhaps, someone else who passes by your question may know better. Cheers. Arctic Kangaroo 07:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I've understood the problem. Thanks for the help!Zince34 (talk) 07:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Is this resolved? The discussion is unclear. If not, I'd be happy to take a peek... Technical 13 (talk) 11:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

New Article Page Needs YOUR Help!

I was researching Google Glass when I came across another form of a wearable computer called Epiphany Eyewear. I had two paragraphs written when "Reddogsix" came on the page and added a "Speedy Deletion" notice.

Can someone please help me do some work on this page so it does not get deleted? If Google Glass is OK for Wikipedia, then other forms of wearable computers should also be OK.

There's tons of data available for Epiphany Eyewear. But I'm just one person trying to make this page. If you have an interest in the wearable computer topic, please help. Or, tell me what I am doing wrong here. I'm fairly new.

Thanks for your help and consideration. 301man (talk) 03:36, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, 301man. The problem with the current version of the article is that it is referenced to company websites, which are not independent and don't show notability; and to a university student newspaper promoting the venture of an alumni. The Google product, on the other hand, has been discussed in many independent, reliable sources. So please read and understand WP:RS and demonstrate the notability of the product with high quality, independent sources. Here is a possible source. Feel free to ask further questions, and thank you for your efforts to improve the encyclopedia. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to add, if you're confident that, given enough time, you can write an article about Epiphany Eyewear that meets WP:42, then you should give WP:AFC a try. By creating a draft article there, it can't be speedily deleted, so long as it isn't (for example) a WP:COPYPASTE copyright violation. (Of course, if it turns out that the current article doesn't get speedily deleted, then there's no need to take this route.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Is New Factual Historical Topic "Digital Computer Association" OK?

I am a past member of the now defunct Digital Computer Association 1952 - 1993 that was active in the Los Angeles area and involved many of the participants in early West Coast computing research and application. It is possibly the first such organization in the U.S. but I have no data to support this. It was at the center of computer education, discussion, collaboration and camaraderie that existed in the local computer culture of that time.

Is this topic appropriate for Wikipedia?76.166.178.94 (talk) 01:47, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse. Based on a quick look for reliable sources covering the group, I believe that it is is notable, and that an article is appropriate. Here is a fairly lengthy article from Computer World. There are lots of other sources available, and I believe that an article about a computer industry trade group that started in 1952 would be an excellent contribution to the encyclopedia.Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Need a consulting Mentor...

Hello! I edit periodically and need someone I can ask for advice (originally I was mentored by ArielGold). My current question is: when an article is woefully incomplete, is it legitimate to add material from a wiki article in another language and cite that as the reference? Cheers! Shir-El too 18:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

PS Tried to use the live chat page but couldn't find any text window at the bottom of the screen. Sorry TheDruid, couldn't answer you! Shir-El too 18:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Shir-El and welcome to The Teahouse. Read Wikipedia:Translation#How to translate for details on the correct way to do this. You cannot cite Wikipedia as a source because Wikipedia is not a reliable source. The template {{Translated page}} should go on the article's talk page. Attibution in the edit summary is also necessary, and you can find this explained in Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Editing the part of History of Howrah

I added some information about a very rare book written by Chunder Nath Banerjei, a native converted christian in the year 1872.I'm a researcher and discovered the book and the memorial plaque of sri Banerjei inside the prayer Hall of St. Thomas' Church. No one before me could trace out this plaque in the history of Howrah.As such I wanted to put that information in the edit part. My intention was not to promote my own book. I had just given the reference and mentioned my name as you've mentioned names of Bipradas Piplai and others. As my book is written in bengali I had given the reference with the name of the publisher and ISBN no.I had no intention to advertise my own book. So it is not clear to me how can I edit the page with this information which is an essential part of he History of Howrah. Pl send your advice and help me learning about the edit processSukanta60 (talk) 18:14, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Sukanta60 and welcome to the Teahouse. What you seem to be proposing is a source to which you are the author of. You feel this may be a noteworthy addition to an article with some pertinent information on the figure. First, thank you very much for your interest in contributing in a transparent manner. I suggest first, reviewing a few of our guidelines and policies to give you a good overview of how to best proceed. First is Wikipedia:Conflict of interest as well as Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Be bold, Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. The best way to proceed from there is to seek advice from a mentor who will have expertise in the area. I suggest one of the projects for general assistance from the community, but the best individual to ask about would be User:Sitush. As someone who is the author of the information I would also suggest the following essay to read through as well; Wikipedia:POV and OR from editors, sources, and fields.--Amadscientist (talk) 18:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Is date of birth for notable people a security risk?

I'm sure this must have been approached before but can't seem to find any answers on it. I was working on an article for an author that I know of... and have listed his DOB. But, that raised to my personal inquiry on whether having date of births and birth locations accessible to the public poses a privacy risk of information? Technically speaking, having those two pieces of information along with perhaps a SS # would allow some people to pull credit reports on high profile individuals allowing a LOT of information to be gained. B4theword (talk) 14:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Such information can only be included in a WP article if it has already been published elsewhere. You've also pointed out that one would need the person's SSN or other identity number as applicable for their country, so a DOB alone is fairly useless. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

If its public knowledge, no. Example. If a birthdate is provided, May 8, how many have a May 8th birthdate? Do you mean that nobody could think of a May 8th date on their own?? OR how about the fact that the SSDI, Social Security Death Index, is online...you mean a scammer couldnt go there and get some old SSNs?? OR birth certs, etc etc etcCoal town guy (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIVACY covers this briefly. We should have a presumption in favour of privacy for personal information like dates of birth and full birth names. Sionk (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

If the person is highly notable, a "celebrity" or genuinely famous person, and if their birthplace and date of birth has been published already in several reliable sources, then it is perfectly acceptable to include this information. What is not acceptable is for a Wikipedia editor to do any type of original research to uncover this information, such as searching primary sources like government databases. Marginally notable people are entitled to a modicum of privacy, and Wikipedia editors summarize reliable secondary sources. We don't "ferret out the facts". Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

editing a content in the sandbox

Hi iam a pretty new user , just wanted to edit the content in the sandbox. regards Tam1305 (talk) 07:53, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Tam1305. There are two sandboxes you can edit - for the general test sandbox follow this link, then click the "Edit" tab at the top of the page and get stuck in. This sandbox gets cleared out fairly regularly - if you'd like somewhere that you can retain your work, you also have a personal sandbox at this link (there's also a link at the top right of every page) which doesn't get emptied - you can edit this one in exactly the same way. Let us know if you need any more help. Yunshui 雲‍水 08:24, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Article seems like an opinion piece

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_wheat

I was reading this and it seemed to be composed in blogging style of writing. The author seems to be inserting their own conclusions and opions about public policy. I am new at this and I would like a reality check. Thanks. 71.108.132.110 (talk) 04:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello 71.108, and thanks for stopping by. Yes, that article is a bit of a mess. The subject is, of course, a perfectly legitimate topic for an encyclopedia article, but what is written there is not an encyclopedia article. It's an essay. If you feel like tackling the clean-up of that article yourself, you are more than invited to do so; Wikipedia only gets better because people who care fix things. Since you care, you're in the best position to do the fixing. If you don't have the resources to fix the article up, you can flag it for attention of others by adding a "cleanup tag" to the article top. I'd recommend {{Essay-like}}, but there is a whole list of them at Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup. Does that help answer your question? --Jayron32 05:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I thought it didn't look right. I don't know where to begin. Let me look at the cleanup message list and figure out how to tag it. When a clean up tag is posted is it only visible to those who come across the article, or does it pop up up in a *cleanup* database? Thanks again.71.108.132.110 (talk) 05:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry. After reading for 20 minutes I can't figure out how to insert *essay*. Could you point me to the step by step method including where in the article it goes? Thanks again.71.108.132.110 (talk) 05:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, edit the article and at the top just add this text - {{Essay-like|date=May 2013}} - then save. NtheP (talk) 07:22, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, again. Yes, "tagging" an article adds it to a list, just not a database. When you put any cleanup template (the formal name that we usually call a cleanup tag) to an article, that article is listed in a category. For example, when you add {{Essay-like}} at the top of an article, that article is added to Category:Wikipedia articles needing style editing. Click on some of these blue links to see the pages that describe them and how to use them.

Wikipedia may seem less organized than a plate of spaghetti as you start out but if you stick around and keep learning, there's logic and method to the interconnected parts that make up Wikipedia. I hope you'll sign up for an account and continue to contribute to the encyclopedia. Take care, DocTree (ʞlɐʇ·cont) Join WER 10:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. I will look at it and try to see what I can do.71.108.133.103 (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Editing Sandbox, Seems Locked

Hi I submitted an article in the Sandbox, which I want to edit and add sources, but it won't let me. Any thoughts? Thanks! -SidneyElsid27 (talk) 16:52, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Sid, welcome to the Teahouse, your sandbox User:Elsid27/sandbox isn't locked and is fully editable. There's a big red error message at the moment because you have inserted <ref> </ref> tags but have inserted any reference information between them. It doesn't stop you editing the page though. NtheP (talk) 17:02, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok thanks NtoP, so how do I edit out the big error message? - SidneyElsid27 (talk) 17:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

You put some text in between the <ref> </ref> tags and add a {{reflist}} template to the bottom of the page. NtheP (talk) 17:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

How to not repeat a source 6x

I need to source a simple bullet-pointed list of 6 awards received that I have added to an article. They were all listed on the subject's official web page in a similar list, so the source for them all is that single web page. Obviously I don't want *citation clutter* going on with the footnote repeating itself in the References section 6x. But I can't seem to find anything that tells you how to condense that (you know, how some articles have 5 a, b, c etc going on when a source is used more than once). Is there a template for that? A snippet of code to add to the regular code? Would it be acceptable to just add the citation to the very last award on the list? Or would I be better off using a semi-colon riddled paragraph instead of the list? TYVM in advance. ScarletRibbons (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Welcome back to the Teahouse, ScarletRibbons! I remember being quite confused by that as well at first. Instead of opening with <ref>, you would open the citation with <ref name="something short to call it">. For example, if it were a book by Peter Laufer, I would probably put <ref name="Laufer">. Then, for all of the following times you use that reference, instead of putting the whole citation, you would put <ref name="what you called it" />. Happy editing! öBrambleberry of RiverClan 15:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

TYVM for the fast service :-D Just to make sure I'm clear, the quotation marks are necessary, yes? ScarletRibbons (talk) 21:38, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Not strictly speaking, if there is no space in the name they are not required.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 21:43, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the usual style for that specific kind of thing is to introduce the list with a clause, and then cite that, like this, vaguely...my list contains the following:^[1]

• this little thing,
• this little thing,
• and of course, this one.

That's what I think I see the most. Or, if you're using multiple pages from the same source, you can just use one named reference, repeat it like Brambleberry said, and then use TEMPLATE:RP to make something like this...^[a]

Revent (talk) 01:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

How to use sandbox

Hi, I recently submitted my first article, using sandbox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Teachers_Association

I submitted it, and I assumed it was accepted because it had it's own page/url. I went back into my sandbox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Eirefrance/sandbox

and started working on another article. However, the changes I made in my sandbox somehow also edited the original article, even though the two are different pages (right?). I undid the most recent edit on the original article, but I want to continue working in sandbox without screwing up my existing work.

How do I use Sandbox without editing my past work?Eirefrance (talk) 14:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Eirefrance, should be ok now. When your article on the ATA was submitted it was moved from your sandbox but a link called a redirect remained. So every subsequent time you clicked on what you thought was your sandbox you were actually editing the article on the ATA. I'm removed the redirect now so your sandbox page is just your sandbox page.

You can always check if a redirect has been followed, under the page name if in small type is says "(Redirected from Page name you had entered)" then you've followed a redirect through to a new page. NtheP (talk) 14:39, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

May I stick my head in here & inquire how on Earth something like that happens? ScarletRibbons (talk) 14:54, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Fairly easily. Sandbox is moved as submission to WP:AFC which creates the redirect. Submission at AFC is promoted to mainspace, creates double redirect, bot comes along and 'fixes' double redirect leaving sandbox as a redirect to the mainspace article. NtheP (talk) 15:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

What types of info boxes are there?

Sent from my iPad Altaïr Skywalker 47 (talk) 13:37, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Altair Skywalker 47! The answer is that there are near-infinite types of infoboxes. You can find all of them at Category:Infobox templates, and you can narrow it down to what you're looking for from there. Of course, that may take a while, so you can always go trial and error and search for "Template:Infobox -" and see what comes up. Happy editing! öBrambleberry of RiverClan 13:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Altaïr Skywalker 47 (talk) 16:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

There can also be 'permutations'. TEMPLATE:Infobox NRHP, for example, which is for places on the National Register of Historic Places, gives (convoluted) directions for how to embed it inside other boxes.. Revent (talk)

I am new here thanks to Hajatvrc, Jtmorgan and HostBot!! 8)

I am new here thanks to Hajatvrc, Jtmorgan and HostBot. Thank you all for inviting me here to the Teahouse. All of the Wikipedia editors I have met have been wonderful and very helpful in helping me through my new Wikipedia journey and for making my Wikipedia experience so enjoyable.

Right now I only need to ask two questions...

When I make an edit is there somewhere where I can find a log of all of my edits? I thought there was but I may have lost track of its location. I edited the Video Server page and couldn't find a log of it. It doesn't appear on my Talk Page.

Also, and I'm sorry to bother you about this, but I'm being harassed by a user named Robert McClenon who keeps sending me messages and Talk Page comments to sell a movie actress or a movie or something to me. I wrote Mlpearc and Slakr for assistance and they have been very helpful but this user still sends me Talk Page comments. I don't really know what to do about harassment here but to ask you. Again, I am really so sorry to bother you about this. Other than that, my Wikipedia experience has been delightful and fulfilling and I'm looking forward to spending more time helping to enhance the Wikipedia experience for everyone. Thank you. 8) VALID REALITY (talk) 20:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse! The answer to your first question is yes, and it is here → Special:Contributions/VALID REALITY. The answer to your second question is the first thing to do is ignore it. Secondly, you can warn them and if they persist you can report them. I hope you find this helpful, and if you need more assistance I would be happy to help! Technical 13 (talk) 21:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I see no evidence of anybody selling anything on your talk page. You appear to have a meaning for the word "sell" which I am having difficulty understanding. What exactly is happening that you object tyo? --ColinFine (talk) 23:43, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

As an aside, I noticed you attempting to communicate with a bot, and generally automated processes don't acknowledge or respond to attempts to communicate with them. ;) Technical 13 (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Instant deletion of article

A Christian conservative is knocking out my article on Jonathan Hammond, solar architect. Perhaps because it mentions global warming. How can I appeal this? No button shows up to contest deletion on my computer screen. I have found the wiki guidelines very confusing...HELP. Is there a place I could post the draft for help from more experienced and less biased Wiki folks?

Jonathan Hammond, Solar Architect b. 1944 is a prize winning architect specializing in passive solar design and sustainable building materials.

Jonathan Hammond played a pivotal role in the emergence of passive solar architecture in California. Twenty five years before the formation of the LEED guidelines for Green Building Mr. Hammond helped develop the first climatically adapted building code (Davis, CA). This encouraged passive solar design for heating and cooling, and his firm helped guide the training sessions with builders.<1> These guidelines, which included shading and orientation, were very successful and much more flexible and powerful than the replacement state code (Title 24) and remain better than both state and federal building codes. This received an award from President Carter, presented in person by Rosalyn Carter. DaveB1Ecotech (talk) 17:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The article Jonathan hammond solar architect was deleted by User:Nyttend with the rationale of G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion on May 4, 2013. It was subsequently nominated for deletion 2 hours after it was deleted under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), web content or organised event, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. The article is currently deleted (but there is no log for the second nomination implying it was revdel as well). I suggest you try writing your article using the Article Creation Wizard where it will be reviewed before going into article space greatly reducing the chances of it being deleted before you can complete your work on it. Technical 13 (talk) 17:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm the deleting administrator. It has only been deleted once — I found that someone had tagged it under section A7, but it definitely made clear claims of importance for him; A7 deletion would have been quite inappropriate. However, as you see from DaveB1Ecotech's style of writing here, the article was written in a manner that glorified him throughout — for example, "Mr Hammond illustrates very clearly the problem of being a pioneer too far in front of society. His innovative work, 25 years ahead of the professional advances of LEED remains little known or studied". The whole article was saying that he was a wonderful person and promoting his ideas, rather than describing them neutrally; that's sufficient for speedy deletion as promotional. Please read our articles about innovators like Edison or Einstein (or even some lesser-known people, like Johan Vaaler, who invented a kind of paper clip) to see how such biographies should be written. You're welcome to write a new article, but you need to do it in a neutral and dispassionate manner. Nyttend (talk) 18:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

And DaveB1Ecotech, please do not jump to the conclusion that because somebody has done something that you don't like, they must be biased. One of the principles of Wikipedia is to assume good faith. --ColinFine (talk) 23:33, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Catch22, your reply is a statement of "Faith". < Assume the Position, Faith Approaching!! < Give the Genuine Concern of this Solar Arch-Person a Genuine Response, i.e. < If President Jimmy Carter gave his blessing you would be VERY WISE, as a senior to me, to respect your seniors also. Thanks. ~ Good luck with Hammond. ((if there this is a section/topic editor, that would help your clear up the grammar problems of editors "Cold Dishing Him", as someone did described him as, "Not Recognize in His Time. )) There is a religious slant damaging Wikipedia. /^\< Example: Aramaic according to Hebrew Universities is recorded as far back as 1,300BCE. Yet this is not being included in Wikipedia. http://cal.huc.edu/ Yet how many arctles dismissing the Aramaic & Arabic languages as secondary in importance to others? Jesus, Moses(Exodus of Egypt) & Abraham(Gen 19) all spoke Aramaic, and the later Two come from the time of Volcano in Minoan Crete 1,600BCE, how do you think the stories of Abraham & Moshe survived until Liturgical Aramaic(Biblical Hebrew) was invented? 4WhatMakesSense (talk) 13:27, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Foreign-language song titles

In the specific case of article Jay Park, the article has scattered Korean translations and Revised Romanization of song titles. The song titles themselves are well-established in English, so it does not really make them foreign-language per se, but more the fact that the song has both an English title and a Korean title. I think that including the Korean text and the Revised Romanization after an English song title clutters the text and does not make for easy reading. Is there a better way to include this information, perhaps as a note? Or does it even need to be included? Just unknown (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

From a quick skim of that article, I noticed several places in the text where the 'hangul' for the titles was repeated at multiple mentions, as well. You're totally right, it trashes the flow of the text. IMO, the appropriate thing to do would be to move them all into a set of footnotes (not references), marked at the first mention in the copy. That'll unbreak the text itself, and group the information, without losing 'content'. It'll also make it easier to make them uniform, and get rid of the duplicates.

The real fix, though, would be to change the discography and into a table, present the information there, and add all the missing metadata. Then footnote the mentions of the english title to the entry there.

Revent (talk) 01:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at MOS:KO (I had to dig for it). Revent (talk) 01:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help and advice :) Just unknown (talk) 10:53, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage

Can we make it such that for now WikiVoyage is disabled by default when one enables Template:Sister links? I have noticed that many non-Voyage-related pages have the "WikiVoyage" parameter. E.g. [1] It would be very tedious to disable every single one. Is there a reason for not disabling it by default? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 09:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Bonkers. It used to be hidden by default but there was a discussion at Template talk:Sister project links#Wikivoyage hidden by default that resulted in the change to display it by default. If you wanted to argue that they got it wrong, you could open up a new discussion at that talk page. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Cannes Film Festival Red Carpet Walk Free image

I submitted this question using "Ask a question" box, don't know where it got submitted, can't see it. Re-submitting manually clicking on "edit" link. If it gets duplicated, delete this question

Can anyone suggest any site which offers free image of Cannes Film Festival Red Carpet Walk? I need one of Paoli Dam's red carpet walk in 2011. --Tito Dutta (contact) 06:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Tito, do any of the files at this Commons search appeal to you? —teb728 t c 06:40, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Searched there! No! I need Paoli Dams 2011 red carpet walk! --Tito Dutta (contact) 06:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's rather unlikely that you'll just come across a free image of a red carpet event on the internet, since most professional photographers don't like to release copyrights for their work. Most such images here/at Commons are taken with explicit permission from a photographer or from Flickr (where such photographs are sometimes released under a CC license compatible with our policies) but a quick search didn't reveal anything like that for Paoli Dam. Your best bet would be to find a photograph, and then ask the photographer for permission to use it on Wikipedia through WP:OTRS. Chamal ^T•C 06:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll keep the "requesting permission" as the last option, I have had a terrible experiences there. I have just posted a suggestion --Tito Dutta (contact) 08:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

You want to verify this, as I'm not actually rereading the policies to see exactly how are stated as I write this, but you should be able to search for a 'web' copy of the television coverage. Then, extract (or ask someone else to) the still image that you want. Crop the image and reduce the resolution to an appropriate size. At this point, your use of the television still is 'fair use' (she was an incidental part of their coverage that you are illustrating), and the actual image itself is a creative 'derived work' that you own copyright in. You can then put it under the Creative Commons License. Essential to all this is that you maintain attribution for the 'original' still. Revent (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The 'creative' part is your choice of exactly how to reformat the image for this context, btw. Revent (talk) 00:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid that won't work. Cropping a television still may be "fair use" in some contexts, but we don't permit it here... unless, perhaps, the article in question is specifically about Paoli Dam's appearance at Cannes in 2011. Our requirements are more stringent than simply "is it legal"? Powers ^T 01:13, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

티아라

Dear editors:

Is it okay for this page 티아라 which redirects to an English page to be in the English Wikipedia? —Anne Delong (talk) 02:29, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Anne, and welcome back. Yes, that is her Korean name so it is a reasonable redirect. Using the name of a foreign subject in their native language as a redirect is commonly done. For example, 싸이 redirects to Psy and 章子怡 redirects to Zhang Ziyi. Chamal ^T•C 02:39, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is perfectly fine as long as the redirect includes the {{R from alternative language}} template. There are many other redirect just like it; see Category:Redirects from alternative languages. — |J~Pæst|  02:45, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, just checking... —Anne Delong (talk) 03:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Did I understand correctly? Is the Korean Spelling redirecting to English wiki? <checking, yep it is!> ~ Shouldn't Korean lead to the Korean Page? ~ Please, be careful in the Spelling of Korean. The Language has changed the official English Letter spelling multiple times. Korean for Korean. 4WhatMakesSense (talk) 13:46, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello 4WhatMakesSense. No, the way it is now is correct. The Korean spelling should redirect to the local English wiki page. If there is a more detailed page on the Korean wiki, I suggest tagging the local English wiki page with a link to go there from here and also tagging the page with {{Expand language}} pointing to the page on the Korean wiki so that someone can compare and add content to improve both articles. Technical 13 (talk) 14:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

What is wrong with my signature?

Hi. I recently switched from my default signature on Wikipedia to a more complex one, which involves multiple types of formatting. However, when attempting to save the new signature (under Special:Preferences), the messages " •  There are problems with some of your input" (at the top of the page) and "Invalid raw signature. Check HTML tags." (to the right of the box for inputting the signature) were displayed. I made sure that the box was checked below to treat the signature as wiki markup. I do not know what is causing the signature to fail, as it displays properly when it is manually placed onto talk pages. This is the exact text of the signature:
<span style="text-decoration: overline underline"><big>|</big><font color=#00FF0F>[[User:JPæst|J]]</font><font color=#00FFFF>[[Special:Contributions/JPaestpreornJeolhlna|~]]</font><font color=#0000FF>[[User talk:JPæst|Pæst]]</font><big>|</big></span>
Which displays as:
|J~Pæst|
Could someone tell me what is wrong with this signature and how it should be changed? Thanks. — |J~Pæst|  01:22, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I would love to help you with this! I have a couple questions first. Why is the username attached to your Special:Contributions different than the one that your User: and User_talk: link to? Are you aware that the font element is deprecated in HTML 4.0 Transitional, invalid in HTML 4.0 Strict, and not part of HTML5? I'm assuming your signature "should" be: <span style="text-decoration: overline underline;"><big>|</big>[[User:JPaestpreornJeolhlna|<span style="color: #00FF0F;">J</span>]][[Special:Contributions/JPaestpreornJeolhlna|<span style="color: #0FF;">~</span>]][[User talk:JPaestpreornJeolhlna|<span style="color: #00F;">Pæst</span>]]<big>|</big></span> which will look like |J~Pæst| and if that doesn't fix it, I'm wondering if your non-latin character is causing an issue... Technical 13 (talk) 01:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Technical 13. To answer your first question, I used the shorter name ("JPæst") merely to shorten the signature so that it would fit within the allotted space for the signature's markup. "User:JPæst" is a redirect to User:JPaestpreornJeolhlna, and "User talk:JPæst" is a redirect to User talk:JPaestpreornJeolhlna as well. Also, I was not aware that the font elements are deprecated; thank you for pointing that out! As for the non-ASCII character, "æ", I am almost completely certain that it is not the problem. When I tried replacing the character with "ae", for example, the same messages were displayed—instead of saving the signature. Unfortunately, the new signature you provided does not work either, even without the "æ" character. Do you know what might be causing this? — |J~Pæst|  02:35, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the length of your signature is the issue here. The entire code for the signature can't be more than 255 characters, and the signature text box in your preferences automatically truncates the code at that length IIRC. I'm guessing that since part of the code would go missing in this case, it would of course be invalid HTML. Chamal ^T•C 02:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Your original signature is accepted if the font color is in quotation marks and it stays within the 255-character limit. The signature suggested by Technical breaks the limit and is truncated, leaving it misformatted. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter: Why do the font colors need to be located within quotation marks, even though the code does not require it? — |J~Pæst|  03:39, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know the details of when quotation marks around attributes are optional or mandatory in HTML (in XHTML they are mandatory). Browsers are forgiving about many things. I simply tested your signature to see what was required there. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:35, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Even <u><span style="text-decoration: overline;"><big>|</big>[[User:JPæst|<span style="color: #3F3;">J</span>]][[Special:Contributions/JPaestpreornJeolhlna|<span style="color: #0FF;">~</span>]][[User talk:JPæst|Pæst]]<big>|</big></span></u> is 235 characters and should work... I removed  your #0000FF  because it is so close to  the default link color  Technical 13 (talk) 14:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay... So, yeah... Scripts and bots don't follow redirects, so your user talk shouldn't be a redirect... Luckily, <u><span style="text-decoration: overline;"><big>|</big>[[User:JPæst|<span style="color: #3F3;">J</span>]][[Special:Contributions/JPaestpreornJeolhlna|<span style="color: #0FF;">~</span>]][[User talk:JPaestpreornJeolhlna|Pæst]]<big>|</big></span></u> is 250 characters and "just" within limits. This will make scripts (like the one I used for your talk-back) and bots actually post to your active talk page and not the redirect page. Happy editing!!! Technical 13 (talk) 00:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Is this image free use?

I'm trying to find a free image of the late U.S. Ambassador John M. Steeves. I found this one, which is part of a joint exhibition by meridian and the U.S. State Department, but the copyright status is not clear to me. Any help would be appreciated! Keihatsu ^talk 22:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Keihatsu! From the description, it looks like the photo is from the embassy of Afghanistan. While most images created by the US government go into the public domain, Afghanistan doesn't have a law like that as far as I know. What you could do is refer to the Commons page on copyright rules of Afghanistan and try to determine the copyright status of the image (I'm not an expert on copyrights but judging from the description on that page, I'd say this image is still not in the public domain). If you want to try, you'd probably get a better answer at the Commons Help Desk; they are the people who work with images after all. Alternatively, you could try to find an image of him that is the work of the US government. Since he was an ambassador, I guess they'd have one somewhere :) Chamal ^T•C 01:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

We have no way of knowing the copyright status of this image at this time. Works of the U.S. government are usually in the public domain, and given the turmoil in Afghanistan in recent decades, it is plausible that the image may have originated with the U.S. government. But unless we can verify that, we can't assume it. It may be possible to use a lower resolution version under the fair use doctrine if no free image can be found. See WP:F for details. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:01, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

According to the description, the image appears to be from 1963 when Afghanistan was more or less peaceful, and it also says Courtesy of the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, Washington, D.C.. Whether that refers to the text or the image is unclear. Doesn't really clear it up much though. Chamal ^T•C 04:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Afghanistan had no copyright law at all in 1963; anything originating there was in the public domain at the time. You'd have to check their first-ever copyright law (links available here) to see if it protects works that were published before the law was enacted. This all assumes that the work originated in Afghanistan; something created in another country is subject to that country's laws. Nyttend (talk) 18:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Since he was an ambassador, there should be usable photos in the National Archives. I tried to do a quick search, but their system is down for maintenanance atm. Revent (talk) 02:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

There should be a 'biography' headshot from the State Department, and a White House photo of him shaking the President's hand when he was appointed. Revent (talk) 02:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Talking to self. LOL. (take meds) :) Ok. King Mohammad Zahir Shah visited the US on September 5, 1963, and I found a Time Life photo of the visit with him, Kennedy, and Steeves standing together. Searching for photos of the visit at the the JFK library gives photos number JFKWHP-1963-09-05-B, C, E, JFKWHP-1963-09-06-B, and D. These were all official events, with the Shah and president present, and Steeves should be in most if not all of those photos. They're not links yet, but I'd imagine if you asked nicely and told them what it was for, they would bump them up in their backlog. :) Revent (talk) 02:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

(more meds lol) Those photos might also be good additions to the article on the king, actually. Revent (talk) 02:48, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Is this blog OK?

Hi, I am currently writing an article about butterflies. I have long known about this blog and I find it quite reliable and the info is accurate and written with reference to notable, scientific books. As I know Wikipedia finds blogs unreliable sources, I just want to ask if this blog will be considered reliable if I use it as a source in my article. Thanks. :) Arctic Kangaroo 15:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Indded! That's an excellent blog! It is unfortunate that they are not using a custom domain! --Tito Dutta (contact) 16:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Like you said this looks like a special case, although personally my approach would be to try and find the original sources which those blog articles reference. That said, I think Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard might be a better place for this question, as the editors there would probably be the Wikipedia experts on sources. Chamal ^T•C 16:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

While blogs are generally non-RS, some are deemed as exceptions... E.g. "Official" blogs ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 06:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

This looks like a fun blog, and I will probably subscribe. However, this is by two anonymous writers without citations; there is no way to know how accurate the information is. -68.107.137.178 (talk) 14:45, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

For me, I have some of those books. Pretty reliable, actually. And, I also know some of those people. Arctic Kangaroo 15:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Does the blog list their names? I spent some time searching and could not find them. Can you post a link? Do they have any credentials or documented experience, publications? -65.129.159.247 (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

My suggestion is to use the actual books they get the information from as references yourself, since you have them. It's more useful for readers, or future editors who want to elaborate on the article. Also, it's a more authoritative source, if for nothing else than the fact the blog could have typos, etc.

Since they give sources, it'd really only appropriate to use the blog as as source for the statement 'this blog says that', unless you've personally tracked down each of their cites, and then citing the blog would be redundant.

Sources don't need to be available online. The requirement is that sufficient citation exists that an interested person can properly identify the reference and verify the cite.

You can still point readers to the blog, and inform them of your use of it, as a 'general reference' instead of an actual citation.

Revent (talk) 00:16, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Reply IP: Everything's here. And BTW, that "Commander" is the person mentioned in the link, and Horace is a early stages expert in tthe group.

Wikipedia Table Help

In this table Feluda#Feluda_series, I want to add a colspan="4" "Characters" above the cols "Topshe", "Jatayu","Sighy Jyatha", "Villain".
Here is a rough sketch of what I am asking for.
You can edit in the article or in this backup copy or suggest the code here!--Tito Dutta (contact) 05:06, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I posted an edit to the article. My76Strat (talk) 05:20, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! --Tito Dutta (contact) 05:23, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Tito, what is "Sighy Jyatha"?--Pratyya ^(Hello!) 11:35, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

It must be a misspelling of the "Sidhu Jyatha" column at Feluda#Feluda series. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Convincing a non-expert of the value of an expert article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Extended content, see discussion User talk:FoCuSandLeArN#Pygmy pipehorse - WT:WikiProject Articles_for creation#Pygmy pipehorse - WT:Articles for creation/Pygmy pipehorses

Hi everyone, I thought this would be a nice one to share - an example of how the system completely fails when established Wikipedians try to critically block an article they totally don't understand. I am close to modifying this and sending it to CreationWiki instead!!!

Article: pygmy pipehorses; rejected because: "Thank you for your submission, but the subject of this article already exists in Wikipedia. You can find it and improve it at Acentronura instead." [my response: no it's not, that's like saying an article on reptiles should be rejected because there is already one on crocodiles!!!]

Hi, I'm not sure what you mean by "this article already exists on Wikipedia". Acentronura is only one of four genera of "pygmy pipehorses", so updating the information on the "Acentronura" page will not work.(...) Tesk0002 (talk) 23:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for getting back to me. Wouldn't they fall under Hippocampinae then? FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

No, that's a higher level category. It works as follows: Acentronura: One of five genera of pygmy pipehorse ; Pygmy pipehorses: Genera Acentronura, Amphelikturus, Idiotropiscis, Kyonemichthys and the extinct Hippotropiscis; Hippocampinae: The above five pygmy pipehorse genera, plus the seahorses

But what's lower than subfamily and higher than genus? FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:28, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Good point - but remember that taxonomic levels above the species (which can be fairly clearly defined on the basis of the ability to interbreed or not) are entirely arbitrary anthropogenic concepts, what is considered a distinct genus in one group can be a different subfamily in another. (...) Personally, I would establish an entirely new subfamily for the pygmy pipehorses, but that is just an artefact of the human tendency of putting everything into a distinct drawer, while in this case, one genus in my made-up drawer is more closely related to a genus in a different drawer than it is to some of the genera in its own drawer.

...having said that - it is nonetheless very clear what a pygmy pipehorse is because their morphology can be readily defined: like seahorses, they have a prehensile tail and a brood pouch that has evolved into a sealed sac. The only difference is: they do not swim upright. It's a bit like "Reptilia" - everybody knows what it is, but it doesn't actually exist because "Aves" (birds) clusters right within it. Tesk0002 (talk) 09:26, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

...I just had a look, there really is a page on Wikipedia called "Reptiles", which suffers from the exact same problem as "pygmy pipehorses" - non-monophyly (replace reptiles with pygmy pipehorses and birds with seahorses, and you have the perfect analogy). I quote: "Although they have scutes on their feet and lay eggs [a prehensile tail and a brood pouch that has evolved into a sealed sac], birds [seahorses] have historically been excluded from the reptiles [pygmy pipehorses], in part because they are warm-blooded [have an upright posture]. They therefore do not appear on the list above. However, as some reptiles [pygmy pipehorses] are more closely related to birds [seahorses] than they are to other reptiles [pygmy pipehorses]  — crocodiles [pygmy pipehorses of the genus Idiotropiscis] are more closely related to birds [seahorses] than they are to lizards [pygmy pipehorses of the genera Acentronura, Amphelikturus and Kyonemichthys]  — cladistic writers who prefer a more unified (monophyletic) grouping usually also include the birds [seahorses), which include over 10,000 species.[3][4][5] (See Sauropsida.) [See Hippocampinae]"

...in other words: if you want to continue blocking the pygmy pipehorse page, you should at least be logically consistent and delete the entire reptile page - perhaps some of it is salvageable and could be moved across to the Sauropsida page. The cladists will be grateful. Everyone else will be outraged. Tesk0002 (talk) 13:22, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment: As User:FoCuSandLeArN mentioned, you should consider improving the article Acentronura — which is about the same topic — instead of submitting this one. Maybe this article is better than the one that already is in the mainspace but there's still no point in getting an article created about a topic on which an article already exists. Cheers, smtchahal(talk) 13:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Tesk0002 (talk) 13:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC) (...) I would also suggest you to improve the article Acentronura if you are knowledgeable about the topic and are willing to contribute to the article. Thanks, smtchahal(talk) 13:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

[No way, why the heck should I? There's nothing wrong with that article, whoever wrote it knows plenty about Acentronua. I've written something quite different here, you know, higher level taxonomy...]

Note that doing so, however, won't affect what happens to this article but of course, your help would be greatly appreciated. smtchahal(talk) 13:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

[Thank you kind Sir, I am most grateful for not being forced to improve something that I know zilch about!! But don't worry about it, this was my last attempt at trying to share my expert knowledge via this medium. Now if somebody could explain to me how to fix up the seahorse page on CreationWiki, it's got a leafy seadragon on it (not disguised as a leaf but as a coral, of all things....)] Tesk0002 (talk) 14:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Considering this is an AfC article, and it is being discussed separately in two different locations, this smells badly of canvassing and I would advise anyone interested in responding to this request do so on User talk:FoCuSandLeArN#Pygmy pipehorse. Happy editing!!! Technical 13 (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

My personal opinion of this article is that it might be better served on species:Home than here on en.wikipedia. I encourage you to build it out there, and then if it meets en.wikipedia's notability standards, it can always be copied over. Technical 13 (talk) 15:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I'm afraid you're misunderstanding. It's not specifically that /coverage/ of the actual species are not important. The issue, honestly, is the poor state of the genus article. I did some basic work on it, but it needs more, including a copyedit. Some of the information is poorly arranged. I also created redirect links from the species names to the genus article.

A major concern on WP is the creation of new articles that are subtopics of existing ones that need work. This can actually reduce the quality of coverage by 'diffusing' information too much.

The best way to improve the coverage of both species is to work on the genus article, as a general description, with sections detailing and sourcing the uniqueness of both varieties. Then, when the section about 'your' pipefish gets long enough, it can be split into a separate article, which will immediately be 'good', and your work will actually help both articles, and will help ensure that there are enough sources about the specific species to write a 'long enough' article. Remember, an encyclopedia article isn't supposed to be as intricate or specifically detailed as a journal article. Revent (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, my previous comment was with the respond widget, so I didn't get an edit conflict and thus missed the previous comment when replying.

That's also why my indentation broke. :) Revent (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've been asked to comment on this issue. I'm not sure what's going on, or where to comment since there are discussions in several places. I gather someone wants, or wanted to write an article on Idiotropiscis lumnitzeri. That's straight forward and there should be no problem with that. The artice should be titled "Sydney's pygmy pipehorse" in alignment with Fishbase. There is a suggestion above that it is better for the writer to write about the genera, not the species. That seems quite wrong to me, and I hope the Teahouse is not offering that advice on other articles to do with marine life. Editors should write at any taxonomic level they choose, so long as they have suitable material for that level. If an editor has sufficient quality material on a species, they should definitely write the article for that species, even if an article for the genera doesn't exist. However I can't find the article. Is it in a draft form in a sandbox, or has the writer withdrawn it? --Epipelagic (talk) 03:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I've withdrawn it. After reading the above comments, which are all completely nonsensical and have nothing to do with the article (which is neither about a species nor about a genus) I have decided to give up before I lose my marbles. I will try to buy a second ticket for this lottery in a couple of months, perhaps an editor who has at least a basic understanding of taxonomy will then get to read it and provide some competent, critical feedback. The first pygmy pipehorse was described in 1853 and there's still no Wikipedia article dealing with this group, so a couple of months isn't that long. 175.38.232.232 (talk) 09:43, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

A little less pomposity might help as well. --Epipelagic (talk) 10:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Will it? I've had the impression that most of those who have commented haven't actually read the article before deciding what to do with it. I wouldn't call that particularly humble either... 175.38.232.232 (talk) 11:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Well put it back in a sandbox so it can be examined again. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:26, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it appears you wrote an article about the pygmy pipehorses, a posssibly nonmonolhyletic group of genera, the non-seahorses in a family. You argued that this is commonly done on Wikipedia, and you are correct, organism articles are written that focus on non-taxa. You got responses that appear to indicate your article was either not read or was read by editors with such limited knowledge of the topic as to make discussion difficult. Very frustrating. The article is still missing and would be a good read and fine DYK. -198.228.216.155 (talk) 12:04, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, if you look at Acentronura, I actually worked on it a bit, including, mostly adding links. It now has reference to WikiSpecies, and the appropriate navigation bar. I also added redirects from the names of the actual species to the genera name, and took a quick look at the other closely related articles and tweaked them.

The goal isn't for WP to have an article about everything notable. The goal is that WP have encyclopedic coverage. I'm not saying that you can't write a good article about the species...I'm sure you can. But it would be better for now for the article about the genus to actually have a complete and well-written general description (it doesn't) and then subsections about the two species. The species name can then be redirected to those specific sections of the article. Once you have expanded the section on your fish to where it unbalances the genus article, then it can be converted into a new, independent article.

I suspect you are misunderstanding what people are saying, and I'm not saying it's your fault.

Revent (talk) 23:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed the comments about the 'hidden' article you wrote, but I'm not going to hunt it down. I suspect, however, that portions of that text that generally describe the genus could be incorporated easily into the main text there, and most of your copy used as a 'precreated' subsection. I'm sure that many of the features of the species that you wrote about are common to both, and it's a better 'classification of knowledge' for WP to be written that way. Revent (talk) 23:49, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Absolutely no Revent. I don't doubt you are acting with the best of motives, but please stop telling new users they must write higher level taxa articles (like genera) before they can write lower level taxa articles (like species). That is nonsense, and would be very damaging to the development of biological articles. To repeat: Editors should write at any taxonomic level they choose, so long as they have suitable material for that level. If an editor has sufficient quality material on a species, they should definitely write the article for that species, even if an article for the genera doesn't exist. It's not your place to decide how biology articles are developed on Wikipedia. Teahouse participants should not be imposing their personal ideas if they lead to unnecessary and inappropriate restrictions on article development. If you still think you have the right to make your impositions, then I invite you to take the matter to the various project boards concerned with biology articles, and see what they think of your restrictions. --Epipelagic (talk) 00:09, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear on this, I do not share Revent's notions. I've created hundreds (yes, hundreds) of species articles, and have a fair understanding of issues involved in doing so. My main concern with accepting this user's article had nothing to do with not understanding taxonomy, but rather the complete opposite. I was afraid that given the current state of articles about species of that same family, this particular article would've been confusing to readers. All that was needed was some clarification in those same articles on the part of said user before moving the article to mainspace. The user resorted to rather nasty accusations, and decided to take some time off, which in my opinion seems fitting, as it's unproductive to have users rampaging with such unjustified negative comments. Mea culpa, I was slow to perform those changes myself, and thus this theatre evolved. I hope the user rethinks his stance and decides to make valuable contributions in the future without petty dramas, as it is important to understand that we're all trying to improve the encyclopaedic species content within Wikipedia. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Corrections of bad punctuation reverted

Hello all. Since having joined not long ago I've been adding commas to articles where they have been missing. These are commas that are required to set off non-restrictive appositives. Here are some examples:

London, England, is the largest city in Britain

Charles, Prince of Wales, is a member of the British monarchy

She was a student at Magdalen College, Oxford, for five years

I'm on holiday from June 1, 2013, onwards

There are many occasions on Wikipedia where the second comma isn't present, and thus the sentence is ungrammatical. A lack of commas where they are required also distorts the meaning of the sentence. The second commas aren't optional. They must be present for the sentence to make sense.

Some such corrections I've made recently were reverted and challenged. Two editors both thought I was adding serial commas. One editor thought it looked like there were too many commas. This is where some people get confused. I'll demomstrate with some lists.

The first sentence below contains a serial comma, the second doesn't. The serial comma is, of course, optional. It's not required for most sentences to make sense. (In some cases it helps but let's not get into that now; let's not complicate things.)

He was educated at Eton College, Rugby School, and Magdalen College, Oxford.

He was educated at Eton College, Rugby School and Magdalen College, Oxford.

Now let's say that our fictional student, he, whoever he is, didn't go to Eton at all but instead continued his studies at the Sorbonne.

He was educated at Rugby School, Magdalen College, Oxford, and the Sorbonne.

That's a list with three items. The comma after Oxford is required because it closes the appositive of Magdalen College which is Oxford. This comma can't simply be removed. Without it, the sentence's meaning is different.

I managed to explain to some editors why the absence of a comma in such a place is wrong. But two more editors simply don't understand or haven't attempted to. One says that they don't want to get into a "pedantic discussion" and that my edits look "like an attempt to enforce one variety of English on articles it doesn't belong to"

My edits haven't been accepted and that seems to be the end of the matter. The error still persists on the article.

Is there someone senior here who knows their way around the English language and can settle this dispute? Inglok (talk) 00:47, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse, Inglok! I feel your pain. However, wikipedia is such a large place and there are so many articles that need these fixes. I agree that you are right, however, having been here actively just a few short months myself, I know that your best bet is to just let it go on those articles for awhile. You can always get back around to them later (give it a couple months). A couple commas, no matter how important to the sentence structure isn't worth getting in an edit war about. Quite plainly, it's the difference between knowing your shit or knowing you're shit. Or perhaps in this case, it's the difference of helping your uncle, Jack, off the horse or helping your uncle jack off the horse. (using these examples makes the people that don't get it catch on sometimes, and it's fun if it doesn't ) Technical 13 (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Technical, but I'd quite like to get the bottom this. Inglok (talk) 01:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm just about to head to bed myself, but if you can offer some links to some pages, I'm sure someone will be by shortly that can assist you further. Technical 13 (talk) 01:06, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Technical. The most recent dispute is about Prince Harry of Wales of all articles. Here's the latest sentence in question: Prince Henry of Wales is the younger son of Charles, Prince of Wales and Diana, Princess of Wales. My first edit was undone by Fat&Happy. I spoke with Fat&Happy who agreed that I could put the comma back. I did. Then it was undone again, this time by GimliDotNet. I put a message on GimliDotNet's talk page but I got no reply. I again put the comma back. It was again undone, this time by Leaky_caldron. Now, I'm not sure of the difference between an edit being undone and not accepted, but either way the result is the same: my edit is in some way being rejected. Inglok (talk) 01:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I should say that, for the sake of clarity, I didn't include some content of the sentemce in question, namely two parenthetical clauses. These don't affect the jist of the sentence and therefore the validity of my argument. The full sentence can be seen on the article. Inglok (talk) 01:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Oooh, don't touch anything on that page again. They're gonna get ya on that 3RR thingy! Plus, the usage has changed on inserting commas in groups (apples, oranges, and bananas, for example). When I was a kid you didn't dare put a comma before the *and*. Now it's accepted practice & OK. And you have to read the sentence's context. If a comma wouldn't ordinarily go after *England* as far as the sentence flows, then you don't put one there just because *London* precedes it. For example, I would never write a sentence like, "John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, took Constance of Castile as his second wife in order to pursue his claim to the Castilian crown". Because that comma after *Lancaster* doesn't go with the sentence's flow. I wouldn't say "John of Gaunt, took Constance...", would I? That's what your commas after titles are implying, that a comma is required after the subject of the sentence, & it isn't. So I can see why people are taking them out, sorry. JMHO. ScarletRibbons (talk) 03:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, ScarletRibbons, but your comment makes no sense. Inglok is quite right on the basic question and is also correct that there are missing commas in these situations all over Wikipedia. I myself frequently add commas after expressions of the "June 1, 2013" and "London, England" sort when I run across them in articles. The main problem is that few people are familiar with the niceties of traditional punctuation style, so that they tend to confuse the use of commas to separate things, as in series, with the use of commas to enclose things, as in nonrestrictive appositives. (By the way, Inglok, in your example "He was educated at Rugby School, Magdalen College, Oxford, and the Sorbonne" I'd use semicolons for the series punctuation—"He was educated at Rugby School; Magdalen College, Oxford; and the Sorbonne"—to prevent ambiguity.) I think Inglok may want to join the Guild of Copy Editors or at least to bring up problems like this on their talk page, where he or she is likely to meet with a more informed and sympathetic response. Perhaps the members there can recommend appropriate tactics for dealing with the resistance of other editors to simple copyedits. Deor (talk) 07:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't resist mentioning that "London, England, is the largest city in Britain" is not British English as she is writ. It's only American English that has this "New York, New York" thing. Thus this particular example falls under WP:ENGVAR. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I wondered about that, Demiurge, but I am a bit less sure now. I asked someone whom I regard as an authority and she thought it might have a touch of ENGVAR but was not sure. Inglok has produced some references, but I think at least some of them are US sources - certainly one was a usage guide from Princeton. I would like to see some reliable UK sources which make it clear whether that appositive comma is or is not required in BrE. Inglok has been very persuasive (as well as polite and tolerant, giving the bashing they've had!) over this, but in fact although their arguments are well-put I still don't see anything absolutely definitive which says it must be used in BrE - just an assertion from them that it is so. In other words, I accept that it is correct in AmE but I am not yet convinced that it is - or is not - correct in BrE, and I would like to be shown, in RSs, definitively one way or the other. One problem, though, is certainly that Inglok is being misunderstood - they are working quite specifically on this question of appositives and people are popping up LR&C to say no no you don't put an Oxford comma there and really it just makes it all more obscure; Inglok is then being lectured on something they didn't do! I think that Deor's suggestion of taking it to GOCE might be wise - IF agreement can be reached that it is correct in all flavours of English then fine, it should say so somewhere and then the argument - and references to it - can be centralized, and people correcting it can say see MOS:APPOSCOMMA or whatever in their edit summary. Otherwise, Inglok is going to have to continue fighting this same battle on thousands of pages, especially those on BrE-related topics, and it's going to get messy. I say centralize the argument, produce reliable sources, have an agreed approach to which we can refer on edit summaries and talk pages. I don't want to read any more on what individual editors think about this comma - their views are (with all due respect) boring, unreliable and they often don't even understand the point. I want to read unchallengably reliable sources which specifically deal with it in BrE. Nothing else is any good here. 82.45.217.156 (talk) 07:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Declaration of interest: I'm British. I don't want to challenge other editors but I do think it might be interesting, given that we seem mostly to be discussing BrE usage here. 'Nuff said. I am stfu now for a while; a long while, I hope. Love, light and peace (thank you Spike) to all, 82.45.217.156 (talk) 09:28, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"'London, England, is the largest city in Britain' is not British English"? I'm British, and that is exactly how I would write it. I can't even imagine what alternative you would prefer, Demiurge1000. Maproom (talk) 07:18, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

The place to discuss edits is on the article talk page. If you discussed the first reversion there instead of on the r3verting editor's talk page the other editors might have seen the discussion and not reverted you. It is not too late. Don't revert again, but post on the article talk page, and readh a consensus there, then correct the punctuation. Once you have consensus for the edit on the article talk page, you will not be at risk of 3RR because other editors will revert to support the consensus for you. Try it with all the articles, and you may gain a supporting army. -198.228.216.147 (talk) 13:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how that works. The OP is talking about hundreds, probably thousands, of articles - they surely can't have a separate discussion of this on each talk page? I still think that it needs centralized discussion in one appropriate place - that is what would give the army of supporters. Discussing it over many talk pages will only annoy many people. Centralize the discussion, gain consensus in one crdible place, refer back to that consensus when making the change. 82.45.217.156 (talk) 08:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The poster is having the discussions on multiple '"user talk pages, and theses should be a single discussion on the article talk page. The example the user gave is one article being discussed on 3-4 different editors' talk pages. Yes, a discussion about the punctuation changes can be had in a central, community location and linked back to. But the place to link to, in order to prevent edit wars,.must be linked to on the article discussion page, when a question about the edit arises. Centralizing the discussion, reaching consensus, then posting that consensus on editor talk pages each time will not reduce the edit wars. -198.228.216.175 (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)