Talk:Chelsea Manning

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2nd Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Bradley Manning → Chelsea Manning – It has been proposed to rename this article Chelsea Manning on the grounds that this has become the WP:COMMONNAME of the subject in reliable sources following the subject's announced name change; and on the grounds that WP:BLP favors avoiding harm to the subject, rendering the subejct's previous name problematic, per WP:TITLE.

The discussion of this proposal took place at Talk:Bradley_Manning/October_2013_move_request.

Specifically the requested-move survey can be found on that page at Talk:Bradley_Manning/October_2013_move_request#Survey. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Updated link. It's better to use the same place where the RM was developed, so we have a history of who added what to the evidence, etc.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the second time you deleted an active move discussion. Last time I checked, you were one of the editors who opposed the title Chelsea last time. You cannot obstruct the right of the other side to file an RM. Also, you didn't merely move the discussion, you added personal comments that you should add in the comments, support or oppose sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 20:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

User BD2412 already initiated the move request, yours was a duplicate. Tarc (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

@Josh, be fair. You know very well that Obi-Wan put a tremendous amount of work into gathering evidence in support of this proposal. I seen no reason why you can't co-sign the proposal. (Also, re-state your !vote).

@Tarc, actually all I did was correct the errant placement of the template to avoid bot confusion. Josh did initiate the move first, but with some technical glitches. bd2412 T 20:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Um, excuse me, I put a tremendous amount of work into gathering evidence in support of this proposal for a month, I don't know at all that Obiwan put any greater effort than me. As it happens, I legitimately filed the RM per the instructions on creating RMs, late in the day on the date agreed on for a month (after waiting quite a number of hours for any developments or signs of other editors doing it on the agreed date), and I wrote the proposal in question. Obiwan could of course have created an RM if he had so wanted, or he could co-sign the one written by me if he had so wanted, or even add an additional rationale written by himself, but not make changes to a signed comment without permission, because that's against the Requested Move procedure. Josh Gorand (talk) 18:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Admin note: Josh and Obi, please stop reverting each other right now. Getting into an edit war before the RfC RM is even used does not bode well for either of your abilities to conduct yourselves calmly on this topic, and I will be implementing discretionary sanctions on this talk page and the RfC RM if they are necessary. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC) edited 20:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC) , because I got my Rs mixed up. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi - could I ask some other editors to weigh in here on a meta-point? I think given the complexity and massiveness of this discussion, the "header" for the RM should not be controlled by one person, but Josh is currently behaving as if it is. The whole rest of the RM (evidence, discussion guidelines, relevant policies) were co-developed by editors across the spectrum, and my hope had been (as I noted above) was to develop a consensus RM header that laid out the arguments for the move, and to use the next 24 hours to do so. Josh, however, is acting as if he owns this RM, and that he is the only one who can touch the precious header space at the top. While for most moves this may be the case, a wide-ranging RFC like this one (I will put as an RFC soon) should certainly behave differently. Any thoughts? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd say: Dudes, just calm down a second - David Gerard (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

My thoughts are that neither Obi-Wan Kenobi or Josh or any one editor should own this discussion. You seem to be announcing how you expect people should contribute, rather than getting consensus. I think the move doesn't need active shepherding by a single editor at each contribution. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

You may note that above, today, I asked for contributions from anyone towards the move request header. Given the whole RM was co-developed, I felt it only logical that the header also be co-developed - e.g. the place where the case is made so to speak. I was not trying to own anything, nor announcing how people should contribute, I was only requesting help from anyone willing.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I note it. You are very clear about how co-operative you are being, how open you are to others' opinions, and how the discussions you envision will be helpful to the project. I would like things to go smoothly as well.__Elaqueate (talk) 22:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, just to be clear: is this the actual move discussion, or is it off on a subpage somewhere? - David Gerard (talk) 20:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The RM is now underway here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I have notified all WikiProjects with which this subject is associated. bd2412 T 20:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

@BD2412:: I see you put a notification on the LGBT studies "Person" task force's talkpage; do you think it would be useful to notify the general WikiProject talk page? -sche (talk) 00:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Done, but in the future, bear in mind that any editor can notify a relevant project of a discussion relating to the focus of that project. bd2412 T 00:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Requests/Questions

• If you have a request or question in regards to the move discussion please place them here:

@Fluffernutter: Could you please clarify as to whether you will close this move request, or simply oversee it until it closes? Edge3 (talk) 20:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

No, Edge, I don't intend to close the discussion. I'm just here to try to keep things from becoming so overheated that it impacts the community's ability to have the discussion they're trying to have. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Then would you be willing to recruit the closing admins, if they have not already been appointed? Edge3 (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The way that's usually handled is by someone posting to WP:AN that closers are going to be needed for Big Discussion X, and then experienced editors who are interested volunteer. I don't know if that's been done already, or whether the people who compiled the RM had made a similar request anywhere else. If not, I imagine that anyone would be welcome to put out the call on AN when it's needed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I posted asking for uninvolved admins to keep an eye on civility per discretionary sanctions, hopefully that'll help - David Gerard (talk) 21:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Note: User:Keilana has agreed to be a closing admin for this discussion. If it keeps going the way it's going, we may not need a three-admin panel this time. bd2412 T 21:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Can you please clarify where it was decided to exclude the opinions of IP editors and exclude them from participating, without any IP editor having participated or given their opinion? Can you clarify why this decision was reached? 168.12.253.66 (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I did this as a preemptive measure, based on years of experience of high-schoolers gleefully disrupting high-profile discussions. bd2412 T 21:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

+1 :-D But more seriously, it's somewhere for Wikipedians, of at least four days' experience - David Gerard (talk) 21:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Such as myself? Why, then, am I excluded? 168.12.253.66 (talk) 14:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Look at all the warnings on your own talk page. Assuming in good faith that they were not directed at you, but others editing from the same IP address, it is still impossible to know what your own experience with Wikipedia is. If you get an account today, you'll have the four days of editing history before this discussion closes, on October 7th. bd2412 T 18:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

!vote request

I request that the following (my !vote) is added to the support section of the move request.
"Support: Either Chelsea Manning is the common name post-announcement or there is no clear common name. In the latter case common courtesy and the spirit of several rules (e.g. WP:BLP, MOS:IDENTITY) indicate that the article title ought to be "Chelsea Manning". 88.88.162.176 (talk) 18:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)"
As the semi-protection was described as a "preemptive measure" a reasonable IP !vote should be allowed once it is ascertained that the intended forestallment does not apply to the content of that !vote. A reasonable IP !vote should not be discounted. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 18:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

This vote is a matter concerning the Wikipedia directly, on how to determine what this article's name should be according to the project's policies. It is of no concern to those outside the Wikipedia. Tarc (talk) 18:44, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

It is quite rude to suggest that ip's are "outside wikipedia". They make up a lot of the edits on articles and should not be excluded. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 19:18, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, it is a content issue, and therefore not similar to the very few areas (e.g. WP:RfA) where IP !votes are completely disallowed. Secondly, I am clearly not outside Wikipedia, I just don't participate in the same way as you do. Please justify your rejection by citing policy. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 19:11, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I would encourage you to create an account. Secondly, I have never liked the idea of the discussion being protected, and think that IPs should have been allowed. But they have been excluded for almost the whole discussion, and I don't think it would be right to change the rules now. StAnselm (talk) 19:25, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

He's not asking for a change in policy, he's asking for someone else to add his vote. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 19:35, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

 Not done anymore Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 19:35, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted your addition. I think we need to get consensus here first. StAnselm (talk) 19:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

A semi-protection does not mean that IP edits are disallowed, just that they have to be requested and checked for problems. It is neither my fault nor my problem that other IP editors have not made formal edit requests. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 19:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

To answer your edit summary, it's an anti-canvassing measure, and quite warranted given the several attempts by people to get the tumblrsphere, 4chan, etc. involved in this argument. --erachima talk 19:46, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I screwed up there sorry. Lets get consensus here and now to prevent any misconceptions or IDIDNTHEARTHAT. There is also a discussion on my talk page pertaining to this discussion. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 19:55, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for that explanation erachima. I'm more interested in the purpose of protection in general. I believe the purpose is to avoid "bad edits" rather than edits from particular editors, hence the edit request system. Thank you for being bold Konveyor Belt. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 20:00, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I guess the canvassing issue is not really related to bad edits. We could easily get 100 "Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME" IP edit requests - they wouldn't be bad edits, but they wouldn't be helpful. So I don't think it's merely a case of checking the edit to see if it's civil. StAnselm (talk) 20:11, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Canvassed !votes and SPA's !votes are tagged. Registered editors can be canvassed. The stated reason for the protection is avoiding trolls. I am sure it has prevented a number of unwanted comments, but not all as evidenced by the occasional redactions. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 20:22, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm curious as well on the issue of new/IP voters. Has it been decided that only registered and older editors are allowed? If not how can the other editors take part in any of the thread? Sportfan5000 (talk) 20:31, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

To my knowledge there has been no decision (I am certain that no discussion was linked to or indicated in the protection log). The page on which the discussion is held is semi-protected. Hence I (try to) take part by filing an edit request. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 20:35, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

• I feel that the IP's opinion should be added, it does not appear to be canvassing in any way. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:32, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I won't be able to (and don't see the need to) comment more on the allowability of my !vote. I trust a policy-based consensus will decide the matter. I'll just note that the reason I wanted to add my voice to the probable consensus is because I participated (in a round-about way due to protection) the last time as well. As that ended in "no consensus" the matter wasn't really resolved and I figured I should take part in round two as well. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 21:51, 5 October 2013 (UTC) The above was not a withdrawal of the request. By "the matter" I was referring to this request as opposed to the move request (though that will probably achieve consensus this time. Sorry for the IP change; as I won't have access to that reasonably stable IP for some days. For this reason I won't add more to the discussion, which is what I tried to convey. I see it can easily be misread as a withdrawal, hence this clarification. (In the edit preview I see this IP appears to be semi-stable as well. If you wish to check the probability that I'm the same person check the 2013 edit history of this IP.) 62.249.160.249 (talk) 06:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

There is no reason to add these types of votes to the page. The point of the survey is to collect arguments and weigh their merit not tally votes. The only thing the IP address said was "no common name, WP:BLP, MOS:IDENTITY. Those are already well established arguments and add nothing to the discussion. If the IP address can come up with some new compelling addition that adds to or furthers the discussion without reestablishing what has already been said more times than necessary, then it most definitely should be added to the survey. Xkcdreader (talk) 08:47, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

BD2412 protected the discussion page, perhaps to avoid canvassing and sockpuppetry. However, I don't think that those concerns are valid for this specific user. 88.88.162.176 is a member of this community just like any registered user, and his/her opinion should be considered (see Wikipedia:IPs are human too). Although I agree with Xkcdreader's view that the comment does not add any new arguments to the discussion, we have never stopped hundreds of registered users from posting the same arguments ad nauseam during community discussions. Edge3 (talk) 15:16, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Xkcdreader, I'm quite sure if 100 autoconfirmed users wrote "BLP IDENTITY" you'd let it pass. Why are ips automatially considered lesser members of the community? THe vote adds little, but it's not a vote, and 100 users saying BLP IDENTITY is no better or worse than 1 user saying BLP IDENTITY (or for that matter 100 ips saying BLP IDENTITY). Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 17:56, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I added the comment back into the discussion. With less than one day remaining until the expected closure of the move request, I think the safest way to proceed is to allow the comment to be posted, and to let the closing admins to decide how much weight to give it in the final decision. Edge3 (talk) 01:12, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd let it pass? Linking to pages doesnt make a valid argument. It isnt a vote, and repeating "BLP IDENTITY" doesnt change the validity or the merit of the argument. It adds nothing that has not been said to the conversation. Xkcdreader (talk) 05:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Edge3. @Xkcdreader: I am under no illusion that it is the best or most novel !vote. I am indicating my agreement with what appears to be the majority opinion. (Taking your rule to the extreme would mean that one shouldn't indicate approval of other editors arguments as only novel ideas should be posted. Rather few discussions are closed with the objectively best outcome if only one editor has argued for it.) Additionally, in discussions where the same policy is cited on both sides the number of !voters subscribing to a particular interpretation is not entirely irrelevant. Furthermore, it is far from the least thought out or least policy compliant !vote (especially including the previous discussion). Finally, I have not requested special treatment, I have asked for my opinion to be allowed pursuant to the normal semi-protection policy (there was no special consensus for not allowing IP !votes, so the regular provisions must apply.) 62.249.160.249 (talk) 07:07, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Childhood photo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Does anyone have any thoughts about the prominent use of a childhood photo of the subject? It seems strange to have both it and the quote "I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me ... plastered all over the world press ... as [a] boy ..." I don't think the subject had any notability at all as a child. Right now it reads as a deliberate slight more than something that has encyclopedic value. The text has multiple indications that she presented as a boy at the time, so I don't think anything is gained by the photo other than the possibility of harm and the appearance of malicious intent on our part. What do people think? __Elaqueate (talk) 11:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

From looking at the photo, it seems this was made available by Manning's family for unrestricted use. I don't think it causes any harm. Recall that people asked Manning's lawyer about the military photo, and the reply was that Manning was proud of that. So we shouldn't presume that photos of Manning as a male cause the subject undue harm. I don't think Einstein was notable at the age of three, but there his photo sits. Childhood photos are astonishingly common in biographies; in fact, it would be odd to read a proper biography without one. I think you're looking for problems where none exist.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

By itself, I see your argument. But it's not by itself, it's with a quote that the subject would rather be in prison for life than see photos like this one here. On first read, with photo and quote, it reads as arguably non-neutral. I think the quote is more germane to the subject's notability, and shouldn't be removed, and after reading the quote, the picture is distracting and casts the article somewhat badly. I don't think it's a major question of harm, but I think one option is both more neutral and appears more neutral. I am not against the use of children's pictures in biographies. But if Einstein was 1. Living, and 2. Expressed revulsion specifically at the picture in question, then I think it would be worth considering removal if the same material is repeatedly covered in the text. I understand that Wikipedia is under no absolute requirement to care about feelings, but it should be neutral in tone and structure and not give the appearance of being deliberately provocative. (And I wasn't challenging the military photo here, people seem happy with the original research that was done there for the moment.) __Elaqueate (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Shorter read: I don't think it's illegal to have the picture there, I think the quote and picture are distracting together and it makes the article "less good". __Elaqueate (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

If we have evidence that Manning hates that particular photo, then we should remove it - we regularly work with subjects to get photos they prefer. But so far, we don't have any such statement. Manning's statement above about plastered all over the press could be read to be "With me presenting as male" and not "Pictures of me as a boy child". Until we know, I see no reason to remove - esp given this photo came from his family from this set [1], and was made available for unrestricted use. Don't you think if Manning hated these photos, he would ask his family to not release them?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I didn't make an assumption about her current relationship with her family or her involvement with releasing the photo. You want me to speculate here; according to our own sources the relationship is either happy or fraught. I am just saying that the quote and picture on the same page can currently be interpreted as an attempt at non-neutral provocation rather than simple illustration. I never claimed the picture is a copyright violation. I'm talking about how we choose to use it or not to appear broadly neutral. Some people will see a nice picture, others will see a rejoinder to the text. In any case, the child photo seems problematic in both of your readings of the quote (while we have an unsourceable okay for the other pic). __Elaqueate (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

When I read the article, it's not on the same page, at all. The quote in question is at the bottom.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I read it in good faith. I saw how two elements of the article could be read to have a relationship. I saw how it could be made better while remaining strongly and equally encyclopedic, and maintaining the focus on the most notable and sourced activities of the subject. You (and other editors) can choose what you want to take from that, but I don't think I'm going to get in a discussion about how some people have bigger screens, faster reading speed, or longer memories. I'm just saying on first reading it looked less than neutral. __Elaqueate (talk) 18:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, is the policy, "If something is questionable, leave it in until we know for sure it's bad?" __Elaqueate (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

You have yet to demonstrate in any way, shape or form that a photo of Manning as a child, provided by his family and part of the Save Private Manning Network official flickr account, is nonetheless harmful or not desired by the subject. There's an oversensitivity attached to this article which is frankly ridiculous at times.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The direct quote in the article itself can be read as not desiring most of the personal photos here, or only not wanting the one of her as a child, as you have interpreted yourself. I don't share the idea that this is ridiculous oversensitivity. Are you saying it's impossible to think that this picture is unwanted or undesired based on the reading of the direct quote? __Elaqueate (talk) 19:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The direct quote was from chat logs from 3 years ago, while Manning was under considerable stress and going through a crisis of identity, so I don't think we should take anything from those logs as guidance on what to do here - that smacks way too much of overinterpretation of a primary source. The very fact that we have a high-profile wikipedia article on Manning, when at the time of the chat logs Manning was unknown to the world, is evidence that the world has changed quite a bit, so any worries about publicity in those logs I would give basically zero credence to at this point. She is now a public figure, and has the ability to make requests about her preferences; in the absence of hearing such a preference about a boyhood photo (or any photos for that matter), I think this is a complete non-issue.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

So if she doesn't say ouch, then we can assume she would be fine. Again, if someone other than you thinks there is the possibility that the article would be more conservative and neutral without a prominent picture juxtaposed with the subject expressing distress at thought of it, I think it would be worth exploring. I haven't heard any argument to keep the photo so far. I think people should consider the burden of proof here. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Just so we're clear, you're arguing to delete the photo of Manning as a child, and no other photos, solely because of one quote from a chat log 3 years ago, on the off chance that this particular photo, or any photo of that time period in Manning's life, may somehow harm her, but that all other photos of Manning as a young man are fine. Seriously, that's all you've got? I think you need to do better than that...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The suggested change is too moderate and too small to be considered? That's new. I think the article is more unarguably neutral without that picture. I didn't think that was a controversial goal. You haven't explained why the picture is more important to have than to remove. __Elaqueate (talk) 22:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know. I think early childhood photos without as many gender markers are less likely to be problematic than later photos. Ananiujitha (talk) 21:26, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking that, too. I just thought the quote can give the impression that we're editorializing instead of illustrating by inserting the picture just after the announcement. But I was curious what people thought. The stable version from the Aug 21st looks more neutral and conservative in this regard. I'm not completely comfortable assuming we look or are neutral enough here. Does the picture add more value than it risks? __Elaqueate (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

My opinion is to leave the picture in, it adds to the article as it shows Manning as a child in context with the text, we can not sugarcoat everything here see also WP:NOTCENSORED - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

How is having the picture not sugarcoating? What do you think the picture expresses? __Elaqueate (talk) 22:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

arg. Your questions are tiresome. The picture represents Manning as a child. This is an encyclopedia. Any filled-out biography I've ever seen has multiple pictures of the subject at all stages of their life. In this case, Manning was said to be small and frail for his age, and it helps the reader to understand by SHOWING them what Manning actually looked like (which to my mind, doesn't look that bad frankly). I'm generally an inclusionist, not a deletionist, so especially when we have a very high profile subject about whom SO much has been written, about his childhood, about his youth, about his gender identity, about his parents, about how he came to be who he is, the idea of suppressing a cute photo of him as a kid based on, really, no evidence at all, just boggles my mind, and then you attempt to turn it around and say "Justify why this picture MUST be included" - why don't you go around to the tens of thousands of other bios and start deleting pictures that people have found and sourced and uploaded and tell them "prove to me why we should have this photo". We should have it because pictures tell a thousand words, and people reading this will want to see what Manning looked like when he was a kid, it's a simple as that.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't asking you questions here. If you don't want to discuss, don't discuss. I attempt to "turn it around" because the material should be justified to be included, something you weren't doing in your previous responses (which seem more about leaving things in despite concerns). Knowledgekid87 was the first one to answer in a way that attempted to justify the inclusion of the photo and I wanted to hear their reasons. I think both removing challengeable pictures in people's bios based on concerns of neutrality, and asking for justification for inclusion after deletion, are encouraged and normal actions on Wikipedia. You seem to be stating that these actions are inappropriate somehow. __Elaqueate (talk) 08:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

As it stands, you say this posed picture indicates to you that Manning wasn't that frail, and looks smiling and happy. If it is placed here to put the lie to the text and sources about aspects of her past, then it is arguably not neutral, however cute. I wouldn't support having a picture of Kissinger smiling and joking next to text that described him as being in serious wartime negotiations. I'm not saying the picture is objectionable in and of itself, I'm saying (pending a chance for arguments for its inclusion) it makes the article less unarguably neutral. If the picture causes you to say that the text overstates her height issues, health issues, level of childhood happiness etc. then it is arguably not an appropriate image based on the text and sources describing her past. __Elaqueate (talk) 12:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Were the photo captioned with his quote or even moved to Email to supervisor, recommended discharge, that would amount to baiting the subject of the article. Its placement in the Early life section is proper; such photos are common in our biographies. Further, given the context of Manning's quote (a discussion of her female identity with Lamo), I doubt that many readers will interpret "boy" in the restrictive sense of "a young male child" but would instead understand it to mean "a young male adult" or "a male of any age". The photo seems appropriate, is not intended to harass the subject of the article, and is unlikely to give the appearance of doing so. Let's keep it. -- ToE 13:55, 2 October 2013‎ (UTC)

This is a reasonable defense, and one that doesn't reject that pictures could be challenged on issues of neutrality. I would suggest here that most biographies do not have childhood pictures, even when available, and I don't think a encyclopedia where every biography starts with a picture of the subject as a baby would be taken very seriously, even if it was more comprehensive that way. If it's neutral, it's fine. If it seeks to make a point, I think it should be evaluated against policy. __Elaqueate (talk) 14:17, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Manning's original notability is obviously around wikileaks. But it is clear they are developing additional notability in the context of being transgendered. The youngest photos do not shed much light on this subject, as the appearance was controlled by others, but the older-age photos ARE relevant to that discussion, because at that point it was showing how Manning chose to present themselves. Those photographs are clearly illustrative of how they chose to present themselves at that time period, which is relevant to the biographical information we have in this article. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:03, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal name

Question answered in FAQ - This is not a forum AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:00, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Is Chelsea his/her legal name? Even if we are to identify former Pvt. Manning with female pronouns, (s)he should still be listed under his/her legal name, should (s)he not? Dozzzzzzzzzing off (talk) 00:48, 3 October 2013 (UTC) See the FAQ above. There is nothing whatsoever within Wikipedia policy that states that a biographical article title has to match the legal name of the subject. A great many don't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:51, 3 October 2013 (UTC) Our article titling policy is at WP:AT, and an important section of that policy is WP:COMMONNAME. Regarding your specific question about the name "Chelsea", you may want to see our article Name change#United States which states, "As of 2009, 46 states allow a person legally to change names by usage alone, with no paperwork, but a court order may be required for many institutions (such as banks or government institutions) to officially accept the change." Some states further restrict names changes of convicted criminals, so it is a complicated question. As far as the U.S. government is concerned, this soldier's legal name is still "Bradley Edward Manning", but as Andy stated, Wikipedia does not title its biographical articles sole based on legal names. -- ToE 01:51, 3 October 2013 (UTC) The answer is no, and is as far as I'm concerned, never existed. We should always state that he is a "he" (and or variations of) because we have no sources to support it. In my opinion(take it as-is, may be insensitive or even mean) and I'm sorry if I broke any rules, is that he is a he, period, and this should remain until we know for "sure" that he is really a she, because I know for sure that isn't true, and I think we all know deep inside this. Whether that means is anyone's guess.--Lesbiangirl (talk) 00:37, 4 October 2013 (UTC) Actually the evidence is yes, Chelsea is her legal name, although she may have to take some legal steps to chenge her birth certificate and to get the military to respect this change. We indeed have the sources to respect this - international press has publicized the change, and we are bound the respect her wishes. I think this is obvious from a point of dignity and the spirit of BLP which is to minimize harm. No guessing required. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC) Where is the evidence? Show me some links, because I can't find any. We need to show proof, because name change is a long process... in the US, and some states even prohibit it to persons convicted of crimes. --Lesbiangirl (talk) 00:49, 4 October 2013 (UTC) Please see the FAQ at the top of the page. This question has been asked and answered previously. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:52, 4 October 2013 (UTC) Yes - this is not a forum. If you wish to debate what Manning's name 'really' is, do it elsewhere. As has already been explained, Wikipedia is not obliged to use legal names for biographies. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:55, 4 October 2013 (UTC) Also, news articles cannot be used to support names, that is unacceptable. The right way is through government records, which will show his name and as far as I'm concerned, the right name, as name change has not happened. As long as the government has his name registered, his legal name is unchanged until it processes his request. I don't know what state he was in, since some prohibit it to persons convicted of crime(which only happened after he was convicted) so no, news articles cannot be accepted. United States of America Government records are proof, and that is what we should base the name off of. --Lesbiangirl (talk) 00:57, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm very worried that..

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Discussion moved from 'closed page Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request. bd2412 T 23:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

...the article will stay at Bradley Manning after the requested move is closed. I suggest that if it stays, then there needs to be some alteration to Wikipedia:Gender identity revealing when it is proper for a trans woman's article to be at her male birth name. Georgia guy (talk) 19:55, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion is now closed. It would be better to raise additional matters at Talk:Bradley Manning. Cheers! bd2412 T 20:04, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I suggest that it would be better to allow the intrepid volunteer RM closers to do their work (they state above that it will take a "day or so", which seems reasonable), and then deal with any repercussions of the outcome. Neutron (talk) 23:04, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Besides...that's an essay, not a policy or even a guideline. Essays can be a minority or majority view and it explicitly states that if inconsistencies arise we should consult the appropriate policy or guideline. No worries either way it closes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

You mean, it's okay to break the essay sometimes?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:50, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

You're being sarcastic, right? Essays are just the opinions of whoever wrote them, and in no way binding. --erachima talk 23:55, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

But the essay answers lots of questions. Any questions the essay has the answer to that you disagree with?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:59, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Haven't read it, simply addressing your flabbergasting question about whether a decision can violate an essay: Essays are not and have never been a type of rule and I'm honestly and genuinely shocked you didn't know that. If this is a common misconception it may be worth updating Template:Essay to explain just what "are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines" means. --erachima talk 00:06, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

On rereading the above statement, it comes across as more aggressive than I intended. So I preemptively apologize if it sounds insulting, wasn't meant to be. --erachima talk 00:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Although essays are not policies, that is not to say that they are necessarily all wrong (as may be implied here), although you can ignore them when editing.

And yes, this article might and should help in some way to set precedent for gender identity switches and the ambiguous area of people like Manning. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 00:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec, response to erachima's first comment) I wouldn't bother trying to "update" that template, it is already crystal clear. The problem is that some people don't read it, and some people ignore it. You could put the operative words in bold-type red-flashing all-caps, with an audio file reading the words out loud, and those who don't read it still wouldn't read it, and those who ignore it would still ignore it. Neutron (talk) 00:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC) (Note, this comment was based on the "Essay" template, not the "Supplement" template, which I now realize was on that essay for some period of time (sometimes alone and sometimes with the "Essay" template.) The "Supplement" template never belonged there, and it has now been removed by another editor. Neutron (talk) 15:50, 8 October 2013 (UTC) )

I read Wikipedia:Gender identity. It was created on Aug 23, just after the beginning of the debate here. It seems unreliable and created for the purpose of influencing the debate here towards one side. An example of its unreliability begins with the first question and answer there, where the term gender expression is misused to mean a person's verbal statement about the person's gender identity, whereas the term actually means a person's appearance and behavior with respect to gender. See for example http://gillfoundation.org/grants/within-colorado/gender-expression-toolkit/gender-expression/ . --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, it reads totally like a one sided opinion piece more than anything else. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

actually either or both can be correct - what a person expresses in appearance or in a self-defining speech. Sportfan5000 (talk) 05:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Clarified the essay by swapping "gender expression" for "gender self-identification", which I think the following sentence makes clear is the intended meaning, revert if you want etc etc Chris Smowton (talk) 14:08, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

If it stays at Bradley Manning, frankly, I think there's going to be the Wikipedia equivalent of a riot that consensus was so comprehensively ignored. And rightly so. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 12:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why you'd think there's a chance that it could remain as "Bradley". The consensus was so obviously in favour of "Chelsea". — Richard BB 13:13, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The count was over 3-1 in favor of "Chelsea" last I looked, I don't think there's the slightest bit of worry about what the outcome will be. Tarc (talk) 13:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Let's not unpack our Spiderman costumes and Reichstag-climbing equipment unless and until there's a clear need - David Gerard (talk) 14:06, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Even beyond that, I'd hope that if anyone ends up feeling the closers really screwed up, they would calmly talk to the closers first about why they feel as such and, if they must, request a move review prior to deciding to burn down parts of Wikipedia. Simple Sarah (talk) 15:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd just like to confirm what others have said above, that an essay is just the "advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors." It has zero authoritative weight and should not be cited as if it were a policy, guideline, or other consensus-backed statement. My thought in creating it was simply that every RM involving a trans person seemed to restart the discussion from the ground up, and that it would be helpful to capture at least one articulation of answers to the most common questions that come up repeatedly.

As for the charges above that it is merely an opinion piece, well, yes. Exactly what it says on the tin.--Trystan (talk) 14:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking tht some such opinion piece and an faq would be useful. So thank you for creating it. I've followed it and might be interested in contributing to it in the future. Ananiujitha (talk) 16:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There are essays by themselves, and there are essays that a hundred editors say represent their opinion on a specific issue. I don't think it's useful to base decisions solely on the first case, but people shouldn't pretend the second case is exactly the same thing. Consensus is the only thing that makes something policy, it seems. We shouldn't ignore it if consensus forms around a guideline or essay or comment affirming it is important. __Elaqueate (talk) 16:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

You mean, many Wikipedians are against Wikipedia:Gender identity?? Which question in the essay are there at least 10 Wikipedians who disagree with?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:30, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Beyond what i think is a reasonable amount of editors opposed putting Chelsea's article at the correct title so it wouldn't surprise me if there is opposition to every facet of the essay in light of what we've witnesses so far. That the same discussion will be played out repeatedly seems guaranteed. Sportfan5000 (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There is at least one wikipedian (myself) that although agrees that the artcle should be at Chealsea Manning, is extremely aggravated by the arogance and inability to even consider other opinions shown by your two comments, and the title of this section. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:05, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, try to give this section a new title. Now, what I want to know is what we have to wait for before deciding whether the article should be moved. Georgia guy (talk) 17:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

You have to wait for the 3 admins that are determining the consensus to make a decision. Then one of them will post their decision and move the page (or not) accordingly.Two kinds of pork (talk) 17:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Where should I go to check the status of the decision?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:49, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

You're looking at it. I'd also like to second Wombat's comment, you have a severe attitude problem. --erachima talk 17:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I think it's reasonably clear that we'll know about it immediately - David Gerard (talk) 18:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

This talk page will have the results. That being said, I'm going to suggest you (And anyone else stressing out waiting) take a deep breath, try to relax, just focus on something else, and maybe check back here every hour or two. No amount of hand-wringing will affect the RM one way or another, so it's probably best to try not to worry about it. Simple Sarah (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I think everyone needs to read Wikipedia:What_is_consensus?, specifically "Consensus is not a majority vote." Mike (talk) 18:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Consensus may not be a majority vote, but a numerical majority shouldn't be ignored either. And the greater the majority, the more weight it should be given, presuming the majority vote hasn't been corrupted. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Once the bogus support/oppose votes are eliminated of course. There were some stunningly assinine arguments made all around.Two kinds of pork (talk) 18:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, numbers mean nothing someone can easily put "*Support Chelsea is the name of my daughter who supports Manning so I agree." now this is just an example but not all support or oppose arguments are weighed the same. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunatly too far often, it comes down to a numbers game on these issues. Not many admins will go against such a lopsided "vote" type consensus, although I've seen it happen before. Most sources are universally using "Chelsea" now. So it would seem like an open and shut case of COMMONNANE. I personally believe that the media isn't exactly following its own criteria. Usually when someone wants to called by a different gender than their biological one, that person usually lives a type of lifestyle that encompasses that new gender. That's not happening here so the media isn't following it's own criteria. And as usual, Wikipedia gets stuck in the middle. JOJ ^Hutton 21:51, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Admin triumvirate decision on requested move

Per this decision, the requested move to Chelsea Manning has been carried out. Move protection remains in place for the time being. Guerillero | My Talk, 28bytes, Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 23:35, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your input on this.--Antiqueight ^confer 23:41, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for a balanced and excellent decision. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

You mean, thanks for a decision which you agree with. Ah well, at least you'll be permanently topic-banned, that counts for something. --89.0.237.85 (talk) 09:43, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

No, I meant thanks for a balanced decision, in which I agreed with much but not every word, and that properly reflected consensus and evidence in the move discussion as well as Wikipedia's own policies. Um, I'm not topic banned from anything for my ultimately successful efforts to move this article to Chelsea Manning and objection to discriminatory speech back in August, despite endless and routinely failed efforts by the editors who just lost this debate over three months now, and I'm totally confident the site owners have no such plans. Are your actual account banned or something or why are you using an IP address with no prior contributions to address this month-old debate and derail discussion here? Josh Gorand (talk) 16:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Considering how consensus was clearly in favour of "Chelsea" over "Bradley", I'm pretty sure Josh isn't talking about his personal feelings on the matter. — Richard BB 09:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

You can't use numbers as being equal to weight. I am glad personally that this wasn't a super long drawn out decision, meaning that they all felt that the move was based in policy without any major hang ups. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I fail to see how using numbers as being equal to weight has anything to do with the topic here. As I see it, the above post was a nice way of asking 89 not to personally attack people. Cam94509 (talk) 16:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Special message

When I click on Edit the article, I get a special read-only message saying to use she/her. I think this message should be on all trans woman articles on Wikipedia, because it is read-only, in contrast to the traditional:

<!--Per Wikipedia:Manual of style, use she/her to refer to (trans woman's name) throughout her life.--> , which can be edited. Any thoughts?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:41, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Seeing as there is currently debate at the WP:MOS as to this exact issue, I don't even think that that message should be on this article. CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:49, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

As a seperate argument NO we shouldn't have special messages for every little thing, I know often slipery slope arguments are not particularly helpful, but if we start putting a warning on the top of all articles for all things that *might* be an issue, a lot of stuff is going to get ignored. Why is this message essecially nessicary? CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I too support that the message should go in a few days. Like with any protective measures, we should assume good faith and only do actions once a disruptive pattern has emerged. Preemptive actions are in general disruptive to that process. However, if a disruptive pattern do emerge then some protection or warning message should be used. Belorn (talk) 09:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP and gender titles

I would like to point out that the article seems to have been moved per WP:COMMONNAME and as noted there is currently co consensus if WP:BLP played a role. This being the case do editors want to find a solution to this problem now or wait until another one of these debates comes along? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you point to where you see that information? What is the problem that needs to be solved? CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:47, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There needs to be a policy debate, or the site owners (the Wikimedia Foundation) need to issue clear rules (like they have done before in similar matters) to ensure that living subjects of biographies are treated with dignitiy in the spirit of the policy on biographies of living persons. This can and should happen independently of specific articles. Note that the COMMONNAME policy favours titles which don't have "problems", even if another title is more widely used. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Either way, this is no longer the right page to have this discussion. why don't ya'll saunter over to WP:BLP.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, this discussion will have to be continued elsewhere. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Just flagging a source that may be of use in article

'I'd like to thank everyone who has avoided misgendering me and switched to using my new name and feminine pronouns.' ~ http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/oct/09/chelsea-manning-statement-full-document (10 October 2013)AnonNep (talk) 18:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Before anyone gets excited about the letterhead, that's reported as being army-enforced enforced. She signs as Chelsea. __Elaqueate (talk) 18:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Added Statement from lawyer on Chelsea's letter clarifies 'she understands that the exterior of any letter will need to be addressed' as per former name. AnonNep (talk) 20:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Also known as Bradley Manning

I tried to add "also known as Bradley Manning":[2]

"Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (also known as Bradley Manning and born Bradley Edward Manning December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier..."

but it didn't fly.[3][4] Any suggestions, comments? --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Move on, maybe? Formerip (talk) 19:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Would you care to explain your comment? --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The horse is dead. Stop trying to think of new ways to make it stand up again. Formerip (talk) 19:18, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Your proposal is not appropriate. The fact that you and others refuse to recognize her name and gender identity does not make her "also known as." Chelsea is not an alias, it is her name. The end. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Note that the article already says her birth name in the first line. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Formerip and Baranof, if you are unable to give actual answers to editing concerns broached in good faith, then kindly unwatch this page and go find something better to do. Honest editing concerns deserve honest answers, not gutter-sniping.Tarc (talk) 20:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Free lectures on "honest editing" now, it is? Hilarious. Formerip (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

As the person who did the reversion originally, I'd remind everyone to assume good faith, please. I don't think the inclusion of "also known as" is all that important, and I think it might be problematic, as well. That said, I'd like to know why Bob wanted to include the line before I read the attempted inclusion as a rejection of Manning's name or gender. Cam94509 (talk) 19:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Cam94509, Thanks for AGF. I have accepted that this article will use the title Chelsea Manning, and have accepted that this article will present Chelsea as Manning's name, along with using feminine pronouns. Although I have accepted that Chelsea will be used as Manning's name in this article, I recognize that Chelsea Manning is also known as Bradley Manning and we should mention that, as I tried to do. I don't think that giving "Bradley" only as the birth name says that, because the reader would have the impression that Manning is no longer ever referred to as Bradley, for example by the Army, in legal proceedings, and in some major news media. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Bob: it looks a bit pointy, saying the birth name twice in quick succession like that. Whether or not you intend it, it's likely to come across like you're trying to emphasise Bradley at Chelsea's expense, which isn't likely to go down well. I think people will assume that a birth name implies an AKA, particular as they are very likely to recognise it. Chris Smowton (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with asking about this sort of edit, y'know. Those that are screaming "DROP THE STICK!" appear to be rather oblivious to the large-size piece of wood protruding from their own hands. To the matter at hand, "also known as" implies a name that a person currently uses, not one that is in the past. A weak case could be made regarding the fact that one still has to use "Bradley" in official postal correspondence, but that's not really enough of a justification. Tarc (talk) 20:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Son of Sam is a good comparison, as that "name" is synonymous with Berkowitz. Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:26, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• My suggestion is (formerly known as, "Bradley Manning"). Almost no one really has name when they are born. Although the current "born" is fine, the "formerly" seems more informative -- at any rate what we DO NOT want is names twice in the paren. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:22, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

With that wording it would be unnecessary to have the full birth name, as that usage is repeated in the info box. I do think it's fine as is as a first choice, but think tripling or quadrupling Bradleys is undue weight and not concise. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, one thing is clear to me. There's a lot of opposition to the edit so I'll forget about it. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:40, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I think the way the article stands now (born Bradley Manning...) should stand. We have moved the article and renamed it in order to honor her wishes however everyone forgets that this is an encyclopedia. The fact of the matter it this: Chelsea manning was born Bradley Manning. Is is a irrefutable fact and should be included. Anyone who wishes to revert it should post here first with a concrete answer. This isn't a fight between two sides, this is a consensus between encyclopedia editors. Mike (talk) 21:32, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The article is fine as it stands, and honestly, I think we're splitting hairs here. Either "born" or "formerly" works fine, I think formerly might be a tiny bit better, because it sounds a little less weird to say, but honestly, as I said, the distinction sounds to me like splitting hairs. Also known as just doesn't fit very well, IMO, and that's why I reverted the change. Cam94509 (talk) 21:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Since her last name hasn't changed, should it only be listed once? I don't think it's a very big deal, but something about seeing it listed twice strikes be as a bit off for some reason. Simple Sarah (talk) 20:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see it as a big deal, it shows that Chelsea was not born a girl. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Huh? Leaving aside the whole "not born a girl" statement, how does listing both "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning" and "Bradley Edward Manning" on the first line indicate anything different from having "Chelsea Elizabeth" and "Bradley Edward" along with "Manning" once on the first line? I don't follow. Simple Sarah (talk) 21:11, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I think Kk87 replied to the wrong thread there :) FWIW if I read "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward)" I'd probably think she had changed her surname from Edward. Chris Smowton (talk) 21:53, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

That would make sense. I was thrown off because Kk87's phrasing mirrored mine so much. Also, I was thinking something closer to "Chelsea Elizabeth (born Bradley Edward) Manning", but I'm vastly overthinking this, I think. Simple Sarah (talk) 21:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Just Wondering

Closed per WP:NOTFORUM. --Konveyor Belt
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
If Pvt Manning had no gender identity issues and stated he wanted his name to be "Ben" would this article's name really have changed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.249.47.202 (talk) 19:41, 10 October 2013 (UTC) Personally I reckon no, that name change would have had less weight unless it became evident it had psychological and political significance like a name change associated with coming out as trans*. Similarly if someone changed their surname to make it easier to spell, that would be considered a less thorny issue than if they changed it to dissociate themselves from a messy divorce, for example. In short: the reason for changing your name alters their weight of BLP-esque concerns. Chris Smowton (talk) 19:57, 10 October 2013 (UTC) Closed per WP:NOTFORUM. Discuss the move on the appropriate venues. KonveyorBelt 20:44, 10 October 2013 (UTC)