Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram

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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Arbitrators active on this case

Active:

AGK
Carcharoth
Coren
Courcelles
David Fuchs
Hersfold
Kirill Lokshin
Newyorkbrad
NuclearWarfare
Risker
Roger Davies
SilkTork
Timotheus Canens
Worm That Turned

Inactive:

Salvio giuliano

Preliminary statements by uninvolved editors

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Statement by Ryan Vesey

While not named, I would consider myself sufficiently involved in this case. I'll be flying to school soon, so I'm hoping to get a short comment now, which I will expand later. I strongly urge Arbcom to take this case. The community cannot handle this without Arbcom as evidenced by Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive778#Doncram on Indic communities and the many subsections, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive780#Doncram and NPA.

Doncram is a very large part of this issue. Steps need to be taken to address some of these problems; however, I am not entirely sure what all of these steps might be. My first experience with Doncram was at List of Methodist churches where Doncram exhibited serious examples of ownership on both the article and the AfD. My points on this matter can be seen at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive778##Doncram at lists of various churches, but the level of incivility displayed by Doncram is high. My focus would be on the edit summary where Doncram called Nyttend an idiotic non-person. De-humanization is a really big deal. I have proposed a few solutions to help with this, one being a one revert restriction, and another being mentorship.

Doncram also has a serious problem with creating articles that are not ready for the mainspace. At the time of creation, List of Methodist churches looked like this. He also created the very poor List of Anglican churches and List of Congregational churches. This habit of creating half finished Wikipedia articles is disruptive. I suggested to Doncram that he volunteer to create all of his articles through AfC; however, he declined this in his response. Where he also claimed that "I don't think that my article creations are any problem. There is no problem with articles that I create, and simply having someone else review my articles would not satisfy the editors following me and contending". An editor who does not see any problems in the articles he creates should not be allowed to make the determination of whether an article is fit for the mainspace. I hope that ArbCom will impose a sanction requiring Doncram to create articles through the AfC process.

While Doncram is a large part of this issue, he is not the only part of this issue. I have come across a couple of glaring problems in Nyttend's edits related to Doncram where I believe he has lost objectivity. Nyttend recently had a large group of speedy deletions of redirects created by Doncram overturned in a deletion review. More recently, Nyttend was found to have incorrectly speedy deleted Old Union School (Chesterville, Ohio) under A3, and later under G12. (There was not unanimous agreement that the G12 was incorrect; however, it is impossible to say an A3 isn't correct but a G12 related to possibly infringing content that was introduced later is). In any case, I would like ArbCom to consider an interaction ban between Nyttend and Doncram, or at a minimum declare that Nyttend is considered involved and cannot use administrative tools in cases related to Doncram. Ryan Vesey 06:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@SarekofVulcan, it's interesting that you should use Charles E. Bell as an example of improper behavior by Doncram. There, instead of responding to concerns, you responded to Doncram with "whoopee" modified to "WP:CIR". In another case, you move warred at User:Doncram/Old Union School (Chesterville, Ohio) and then move protected a perfectly acceptable article for the mainspace. These are both clear examples that disruption by Doncram isn't the only issue at hand. Administrators like Nyttend and yourself, consistently take action without discussing, that is in many cases improper. Ryan Vesey 07:00, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Nyttend, let me be clear that I am in no way "requesting your head". I have never been under the impression that your administrative actions in general were incorrect. Only that you seem to make some poor decisions when it comes to articles created by Doncram. You are certainly not watching this dispute from the sidelines. In the history of my interaction with Doncram, you have appeared in virtually every dispute. Doncram is certainly part of the issue, else you would make similar actions when articles are not created by Doncram, which I don't have evidence of you doing. My impression is that the communication issues from Doncram and the consistent disruptive behavior has caused you to create a special "this is how you deal with Doncram" method of using the admin tools. Once that method is created, it means you are involved, even if all of your involvement has been in an administrative capacity. You are also not effectively being made the subject of the case. This ArbCom case is to discuss the problems relating to Doncram and hopefully provide a solution to that. It would be nonsensical to address the Doncram issue without examining the role other editors have in that issue. Ryan Vesey 15:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jehochman

There was an RFC in 2010 on Doncram. There are allegations of possible administrator behavior issues. ArbCom seems like the right venue to resolve things. I have to say that upon seeing Sarekofvulcan requesting arbitration my initial reaction was "ut oh". Sarek and I haven't had too many interactions, but my general impression is that he tends to shoot from the hip and that his administrative interventions sometimes make things worse. It might be a really good idea for Sarek to focus more on communication and less on action. Doncram was getting ready to file arbitraton and Sarek beat him to the docket. It might have been smarter to wait and see what Doncram had to say. Jehochman ^Talk 08:27, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. My children take music lessons at the Universalist Church of West Hartford. If there has been a lame edit war on that page, I will be very interested to hear why. Jehochman ^Talk 01:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do not like that Orlady engage in a lame edit war with Doncram. Most editors do not come here with rude or argumentative intentions. These tendencies may developed over time due to badgering, nagging or needling (often superficially polite) from some members of the community. Petty administrative enforcement may also contribute to the development of sour editors. Orlady, why was it so important for you to remove the See Also link to List of Unitarian, Universalist, and Unitarian Universalist churches? That was a harmless link, even if we assume arguendo that your edit was "proper". Were you following Doncram around just to pester him? That might not have been your intention, but it appears to be the effect. I think a broad review of the behaviors of all concerned would be valuable. Hopefully the case will present more advice and less in the way of formal editing restrictions. Jehochman ^Talk 14:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

The Doncram situation has festered for quite a long time and it seems as if only an ArbCom ruling can resolve it. I urge the committee to take this case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from the NRHP problems, recent AN/I threads have focused on Doncram's similar behavior patters in editing Indian caste-related articles. [1],[2], [3] That the same kinds of behavioral problems popped up in an entirely unrelated subject area, with another group of editors, is telling. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:36, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Kumioko - Two brief points: admins (and therefore Arbs) can see the second RfC, so they are able to evaluate it for evidentiary value - if it has any (I can't see it, so I can't tell). Also, from my observation -- and like you, I have not been involved in these disputes -- the problem with some of Doncram's article creations is not that they are "stubs", but that many times they are "sub-stubs", and that often the information in them is inaccurate or exceedingly vague because no effort has been made to verify it or expand it. The creation of legitimate stubs is, as you imply, a worthwhile effort, since by accretion stubs eventually become articles, but a stub that consists of only vague information, which has been created simply because of the existence of an entry in a database, is not in any way helpful to the project, and Doncram has consistently refused to recognize this possibility. His responses to criticism, as reflected in the numerous AN and AN/I threads about his behavior, is consistently sub-par, sometimes rising to a battleground mentality, but all the time dismissive of the possible value of others' comments. It appears to me, simply from reading these threads for quite a number of years now, that Doncram is of the opinion that he never does anything wrong, and that his critics are always incorrect. That is not a position that is conducive to collegial collaboration, and is, in my view, the ultimate cause of the problem that has been raised here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Georgewilliamherbert

Regarding my block of January 5 - notice diff / [4]- I think it may be useful to note or clarify for the record that I was only responding to the immediate, ongoing disruption/edit warring on the DRV page and not to the wider or longer term issues claimed here, which I have not been paying any special attention to. - Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

I haven't been involved in this dispute but during one ANI case I opposed an attempt to severely sanction doncram on the basis that I saw a lot of mutual hostility and provocation that should be sorted out. One thing I just noticed is this page in Orlady's userspace that is in flagrant violation of WP:POLEMIC. There is obviously a need to review the conduct of multiple editors here and not just that of doncram.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Arbs should state whether they intend this to focus primarily on the NRHP matters with the Indian caste stuff being looked into merely because of similar conduct issues or if they are going to try and handle each as equally valid matters of interest. If this is going to focus on the NRHP-related articles then I see no reason why the case can't be named "National Register of Historic Places" out of respect for doncram's perfectly understandable desire to not have an ArbCom cased named after him. Should the intent be to have a case viewing conduct in both of these topic areas as worthy of arbitration then the name "National Register of Historic Places and Indian castes" would be a bit long, but it would not be so obscenely long as to be beyond consideration. Should each topic area be seen as worthy of arbitration then there could always two separate cases with each named for the relevant topic area.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:12, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking back it appears doncram is topic-banned from the Indian caste articles so I believe the only topic area where arbitration is needed is the NRHP topic area. As such I believe the most appropriate course is to have this case be Arbitration/Requests/Case/National Register of Historic Places or WP:ARBNRHP. That way the case can avoid any systemic bias from a user-specific title and thus look more objectively at the conduct of all parties.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:47, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Brad I think working in an appeal of a topic ban in all this would be kind of cumbersome and distracting. Since the only way to address that subject under these circumstances in an arbitration context is the capacity for ArbCom to review appeals I think the focus of this case should be on the NRHP subject, with the Indian caste subject only being noted where it is relevant i.e. evidence of the dispute from the NRHP topic area expanding to other topic areas. Many of the same parties were involved in the Indian caste dispute as I understand so it would be relevant to analyzing the conduct of editors in the NRHP topic area.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LadyofShalott

I have not watched the involved editors closely, but if this case is taken, I think the behavior of all should be examined. Doncram and Orlady engaged in the lamest edit war I think I have ever seen at Universalist Church of West Hartford (history). LadyofShalott 23:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jehochman: It was over whether to include a "see also" link to List of Unitarian, Universalist, and Unitarian Universalist churches or not. LadyofShalott 05:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kumioko (uninvolved)

This situation between Doncram and some other members of NRHP has been going for a while and frankly I'm surprised it didn't land here sooner. I am pretty familiar with this situation but I consider myself uninvolved. As with some of the other folks above I think that more than one editor was the problem and if this case is accepted all their conduct should be reviewed. A note on the links if evidence. One link is from 2010 and one from 2011 only a few months later. The third link is a red link and should be removed as prejudicial. If we can't see it to review the information, its fruit from the poison tree and should be removed from view. I also think that providing links to 2-3 year old discussions hardly proves that steps have been taken to keep this from going to Arbcom. Is there nothing in the last 12 months? It is my opinion that a lot of this has come from some users not liking Doncram creating stub links for NRHP articles. They view them as worse than having no article at all. The point is though as long as Wikipedia allows these to be created there isn't anything that the project or the individual members can do other than edit the articles once they are created. Kumioko (talk) 01:58, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Beyond My Ken, although I expected this case to come here eventually and I believe that Doncram has a fair amount of blame for this, I don't think they are the only one who's conduct needs to be reviewed by Arbcom. I think that a number of editors did some things wrong and inappropriate in this particular case. I think its good Doncram created a lot of articles but I also agree they should have taken more care to ensure the information was more accurate. I also think that some of the arguments from those against him were overblown and based on personal opinions about the creation of stubby or ultra stubby articles. If the Arbcom takes this case, which it appears will happen, they need to review all the evidence of the case and all the members and act accordingly. Not just do the usual and focus on the accused. There were several wrongs done here and they all need to be identified and dealt with. Including, IMO, the actions and timing of the one that started this case. My point on the red link is this. That was obviously deleted for a reason. I do not know or particularly care what that reason was. It is irrelevant. The point is it was deleted and IMO has no business being presented here as evidence. Whether the admins and Arbs can see it is also irrelevant. They are not the only ones making comments here. I may be the only non admin making comments here I don't know, but the fact remains I cannot review it so therefore in my eyes whatever it contains does not exist. Its like telling the jury to decide a case based on what's behind mysterious door number three, it might be a new car, it might be a pile of manure, either way I can't see it. Kumioko (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarek, I left a note on your talk page but I'll leave a note here too. I think the edits you made here removing the comment after the redlink are inappropriate. Aside from my feelings on the red link being inadmissable because it was deleted and because many of us commenting cannot see it, I think you are too involved to make an edit like that. Kumioko (talk) 21:44, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mors Martell

As this matter concerns possible admin tool abuse, I encourage the acceptance of the case. It's also apparent that the community has tried and failed to resolve it, although it is unfortunate the 2010 RFC received so little attention. --Mors Martell (talk) 08:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WereSpielChequers (uninvolved)

Whilst I'm less familiar with this specific situation than Kumioko is, I see one aspect of this as symptomatic of one of our major problem areas. Instead of trying to change policy in a certain direction some people create problems for those who follow an aspect of policy that they disagree with. Personally I have little or no problem with people debating a policy in WP space or launching RFCs, occasionally you lose a debate or get tired of the same issue continually being reraised, but the understanding behind such discussion is that it is OK to follow current policy until such time as that policy is changed. What I truly loathe and consider deeply toxic to the community and corrosive of community trust is the changing of policy by criticism of those who follow that policy.

Taking List of Anglican churches as an example, one I'm unconnected with other than in doing the occasional ten thousand edit or so categorisation exercise of images of English churches on Commons. Doncram is criticised above not for how he left the article on his fifth edit to it less than an hour after creating it, but for the edit in which he started that article. Now I can see some merit in a policy change that required experienced editors to start new articles in sandboxes or offline and only release them into mainspace when they were clearly beyond CSD standard. But the proper way to achieve such a change is to transparently make a case in an RFC, not to harass editors such as Doncram. Irrespective of any other aspects of this case I believe it would be very helpful to the community if Arbcom were to rule "policy development by harassing those who follow current policy" as an example of actionable incivility. Ϣere SpielChequers 11:55, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thundersnow

I emailed a member of Editor Retention in mid-December. The following is that email, with non-Doncram stuff removed and noted with elipses, one instance of copyeditting for [dating], and piped links added.

I signed up as a user in August after 3 years of IP editing so I could work in the NRHP project and their images. I recently stopped editing Wikipedia because I felt there was no remedial action available when I felt bullied. ...

After I felt bullied by Doncram on my talk page and their reverts of my edits, I looked for a place to protest their actions. It took a couple of days for me to come back after laying out Doncram's and my dispute on the NRHP talkpage, and when I did I found the then-current (November) AN/I posting about Doncram.

I believed protesting Doncram's actions to be hopeless after seeing certain comments there. Editors at that post saying, "Oh, for crying out loud" and "This again?" led me to believe that Doncram and/or Orlady is/are often taken to task for things yet is/are still stepping on toes. ... "Doncram should by this point be aware..." and "It's getting rather late in the day to be pointing this out" is ambiguous as to if it is late for the one incident, or Doncram's overall behavior in light of the exasperation previous editors had posted. The closing admin's statement of "Doesn't appear that action is forthcoming or needed at this time" was also disheartening, as editors felt enough exasperation at Doncram and/or Orlady and/or NRHP to post said emotions, yet all that happened was a couple of figurative finger-shakings. ... If I had posted about Doncram I believe the worst that would happen would be an interaction ban, and that would hurt me more than them, as they are heavily into NRHP articles (the reason I signed up).

The [early December] Doncram-related AN/I comments have put paid to any hope I had of contributing to Wikipedia again. Doncram is being defended as a beneficial contributor when they have insulted, belittled and/or bullied numerous contributors, edit warred, removed others postings, and on and on. Why should I stay with a project that allows such things, or work with editors who believe that none of that matters because so-and-so is a good contributor? ...

Thundersnow 12:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bwilkins

I was waiting for Doncram's statement before I even began to draft my own as I wanted to see if Doncram was willing to accept responsiblilty for their actions before commenting. Having now seen Doncram's statement, it's clear that they do not - indeed, the nearly whole community seems to be against them - but why? I mean, they're a "prolific editor" after all! Why can't they simply be left alone!?!?! </sarcasm>

First, let me state that I am not at all concerned that Sarek is the one who has filed this: they have been both a witness to and a victim of Doncram's repeated ugly behaviours. I even believe that SoV took a little time off the project (if not at least admin duties) because of sheer frustration related to Doncram.

The simple point however is this: the community as a whole has set standards for behaviour and article content. As such, anyone's behaviour and anyone who creates content (all of us?) are accountable to that same community. When any member of the community challenges our behaviours or our content, we are expected and required to reply and act accordingly - not simply turn nasty and then charge through your changes like a bull in a china shop. In short, inside a community constructive criticism is not only going to happen. it's required to happen - and we as editors need to respond accordingly and appropriately.

The fact that Doncram has such a long list of people they are in conflict with is not the fault of those people. It's like the old story of the man who went to his psychiatrist and said "Doc, I'm having trouble: my wife won't listen to me, my son won't listen to me - not even my dog will listen to me", and the Doctor said "alright, let's begin with you". Well, Doncram has flat out refused to look at themself - indeed, in their own statement above, they blame others for their own behaviour. Without the ability - or even willingness - to be introspective, it's not a surprise that Doncram has been blocked numerous times, nor is it a surprise that the community has finally lost its patience with them.

I fail to call Doncram a "prolific" content creator - much of their work is data dumps (much of it improper). They have things to add, true. They have a desire to add, true. They have no desire to change their behaviours, and no desire to listen to any criticism. The harm to this project - as evidenced by the huge number of "conflicts" leads me to suggest that this case is a neccesity to protect the project as a whole from the bull-in-a-china-shop mentality (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:01, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@ Doncram - your desire to rename the case and deflect the possible blame off of you is merely cementing my comments above. You are, indeed, the author of your own issues, and it's ironic that you claim on one hand to take responsibility, but on the other hand deflect - nobody else forced you to type anything on Wikipedia. Congratulations. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@ Salvio - although I recognize your line of thought, I believe renaming this to NRHP or whatever would unintentionally also remove the fact that this ArbCom case is about behaviour, and not just about some crappy stubs (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:10, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Boing! said Zebedee

I comment here merely as an observer on the "Indic articles" problem that got Doncram his topic ban. The problem was that Doncram was doing another "data dump", producing bad lists full of errors through ignorance of the Indian caste system. He steadfastly refused to listen to people who have actually done the research in the relevant topic areas - in this case, Sitush has been hard at work researching this area for close on two years now, he understands most of the relevant documentation, and he knows all of the kinds of subtle problems that can creep in when people create or edit caste-related articles without knowing what they are doing. And Doncram's response is to add Sitush to the list of bullies who are picking on him. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Colonel Warden

It is explicit policy that articles may be started as a weak stub: "Even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcome." The complaints about Doncram's work are therefore contrary to this policy. I am not familiar with the NRHP material but Doncram's work on Indian castes seems productive and there was recently a consensus to keep the List of Scheduled Castes, for example. As an example of what Doncram has to put up with, see here: "You think you know what you are doing? You haven;t got a clue." This seems to be just like WP:OWN#Examples of ownership behavior and so Doncram is entitled to feel aggrieved. Warden (talk) 18:59, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JASpencer

Sarek does not make clear that one of the areas that Doncram has been involved in is to stop the renaming of Masonic lodges, an area of interest to Sarek. Sarek as a Freemason has been asked by fellow members of his fraternity to make preferential decisions for them (something which in the case I highlighted doesn't seem to have been done in this case, yet).

I am not saying that this affects the case with Doncram, nor am I saying that this is the only reason that Sarek has raised this, what I am saying is that there is a high probability that it contributed to it and that Sarek's not mentioning of this is worisome.

JASpencer (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Choess

Doncram has been a very prolific creator of articles, largely on NRHPs or related subjects, and these articles tend to be very short and sourced to a single database. This dependence on a single source has sometimes resulted in obvious errors being carried into mainspace. Other editors have frequently dealt with this by aggressively reverting and deleting his contributions in which they perceived errors, actions which have not always been sustained by the community. Personal attacks have been suppressed with admonitions and blocks (for both sides) at intervals, but lengthy discussions over the past few years have failed to reach consensus on whether Doncram's methods of article writing are problematic or acceptable, and if so what remedy could be proffered. More recently, his foray into articles on the subject of caste showed similar patterns of behavior and conflict, with (initially) a different set of editors. I would ask ArbCom to accept the case with a view to analyzing these issues. The community has already tried punishing involved parties for misbehavior (3RR, PAs) without long-term success. The recurrence of disagreement in two quite separate topics should give the committee perspective to examine these issues of editing philosophy (e.g., standards of due diligence in article creation) without getting lost in minutia. Choess (talk) 02:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by lvklock

Mainly, I'm dusting off a comment I made on this subject at Jimbo Wales talk page, here, where, I might add, Mr. Wales himself found it appropriate to remove hostile comments toward doncram with the edit comment "rm personal attacks", here.

I hesitate to comment because my opinions are often discounted due to the fact that Doncram and I have edited together in the past, and they perceive us to be friends. Whether we're friends or not, I have been an observer and I have things to say. Mainly, my point is that yes, Doncram has repeatedly edited in this systematic, "bot-like" way. And? When he started, and Wikipedia was newer, these edits seemed to be welcomed as an integral part of building a wiki. Now they seem to be cause for editors with the sensitivity that nothing should go into mainspace until it's complete to drive him out. As Kumioko says at the ANI, "that is the nature of Wikipedia, someone adds some info, someone else modifies it and over time the article gets developed. I'm not sure what in the Wiki concept is not clear." Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have said in essence this same thing over and over again in comment at various discussions, most recently in my first comment at a discussion of why there aren't more women editors at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/St. Boniface Cemetery, Wrought-Iron Cross Site, where I said, in part that the editors who disapprove of Doncram, "in my experience, want to insist that every editor complete every aspect of an article before moving it to mainspace, thus going against the very heart of what a "wiki" is supposed to do, which I believe is to allow each person to contribute with their strengths." (And, by the way, when did "bot-like" become a bad thing? Aren't bots used in Wikipedia all the time?) Choess says above that "There has been a steady process of escalation wherein the community has AGF'd until it strained itself, made various suggestions and accommodations to try to get Doncram to edit in a more acceptable fashion." Acceptable to whom? Acceptable to a few vociferous editors who don't like his chosen editing style? Or acceptable under the "rules" of Wikipedia? Because as far as I can tell, other than when his frustration has led him to edit warring, Doncram does not consistently do anything against the "riles". Some of these editors don't like stubs at all. Would Wikipedia be where it is now without stubs? Some of them object to his correct statements which reflect the ambiguity of his source. Isn't some small amount of correct but vague information better than none at all? Some contend that what he produces doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Aren't they missing the point that Wikipedia is not a traditional encyclopedia? It's a WORK IN PROGRESS! I know I had other pertinent stuff in my original edit, but it's late and I'm tired and frustrated. I'm frustrated because this whole discussion reminds me of all the things that I used to love about Wikipedia, and of all the reasons I basically quit editing. I firmly believe that if there's a shortage of editors at Wikipedia it's because of editors like the contentious voices who refuse to "live and let live", but instead insist that everyone contribute some minimum level of article that includes aspects that do not reflect their strengths or interests. If you let me contribute what I'm good at and I enjoy, then Wikipedia is a fun hobby that has the added benefit of adding something constructive to information readily available on the Internet. If you insist that I include in my contributions things that I find extremely tedious or tiresome, then it's a job, and since you're not paying me, I quit. Lvklock (talk) 03:26, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Lvklock (talk)

Statement by uninvolved Senra

Not all tiny stubs are bad. By way of illustration, a Little Thetford stub was manually created in September 2008, as were many other similar stubs, by Uksignpix (talk · contribs). That stub was hardly touched until May 2010. It was promoted to featured status in July 2010 where it currently remains. Perhaps each database should be vetted by the community prior to using semi-automated stub creation tools? --Senra (talk) 13:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Dennis Brown

Generally, I would echo Boing!'s statement and just add that it is sad to see Doncram's behavior decline in this fashion over the last year. There has been a denial of culpability and a quickness to assign blame that isn't conducive to a good working environment. Perhaps Doncram really believes that others are "out to get him" or are trying to bully him, although the evidence indicates otherwise. He has become an island in his own mind, and less willing to cooperate or consider the viewpoints with others. This has spilled into a number of venues and is to the point that it is disruptive to Wikipedia as whole. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:53, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Acroterion

Over the past four years I've seen a move on the part of Doncram from an encouraging mentor as de facto project coordinator of the NRHP project to a destructive spiral of negative interaction with a wide variety of editors, to the point that some have left the project. While I don't care to emulate his style of creating brief stubs, it's certainly allowable and has been beneficial to the encyclopedia. What is detrimental is his increasingly casual attitude toward research and facts and their presentation, in which the creation of individual articles is prime and editorial judgment is discarded, and his radical personalization of disagreements with editors who contest his more dubiously-considered contributions. In 2010/2011 I attempted to mediate a dispute between Doncram, Polaron and Orlady over historic districts in Connecticut [5]: we made small progress, but it was painful, and was an early indicator to me that more trouble was ahead. Since then, Doncram has become extraordinarily vindictive toward those with whom he disagrees, using words like "evil" on at least one occasion. Orlady has seen the worst vilification, as well as Sarek. Neither are blameless in their own regard, but I see no evidence of more than extreme frustration on their parts. Other editors have dropped out of the project (both NRHP and Wikipedia as a whole) because they're tired of standing on a battleground and tired of cleaning up after Doncram. Now this attitude metastasizes to Indian castes: in contrast to the stolid NRHP area, castes are always controversial, never clear-cut, and as explosive as anything on Wikipedia. A remedy is needed, and (though it's clear that this will go forward) I urge ArbCom to take this matter in hand. Acroterion (talk) 13:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Bishonen

Doncram's statement, posted some hours ago with an apology for being "longer than 500 words", is actually 1,728 words. That's merely the original statement, before the lengthy responses to others. You don't usually accept anything remotely that sort of length. And I don't think it's any advantage to Doncram themselves that their statement is so wordy people can't face reading it. Bishonen | talk 17:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC).[reply]

I sent him {{ArbComSize}}. If the case hasn't been opened in 24 hours and the size of the statement doesn't go down, I will leave only the first 500 words. --Guerillero | My Talk 21:34, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Sjones23

Doncram's behavior has been declining over the last year. He is becoming less willing to cooperate or consider the viewpoints of others. This issue led to situations in a number of venues and is to the point that it is disruptive to the Wikipedia community. Orlady and Sarek have seen the worse vilification and other editors have left the project, which includes both NRHP and Wikipedia as a whole, because they are tired of standing on a battleground and tired of cleaning up after Doncram. I would like to encourage that the Arbitration Committee please look into this case. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:22, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for amendment (June 2013)

Original discussion

The Arbitration Committee referred this issue back to Arbitration Enforcement. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:02, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by Nyttend (talk) at 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Doncram arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Principle 5
Finding 1.1
Remedy 2.1

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Nyttend (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Carptrash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Dudemanfellabra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Carptrash (diff of notification of this thread on Username2's talk page)
Doncram (diff of notification of this thread on Username3's talk page)
Dudemanfellabra (diff of notification of this thread on Username4's talk page)

Information about amendment request

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#General_editor_probation. Not requesting any changes to principle 5 or finding 1.1; they're simply the relevant ones, and I wasn't clear if I needed to mention them, since the preloaded template mentioned all three things.
Requesting something along the lines of "Doncram is indefinitely banned from commenting on contributors"

Statement by Nyttend

Since the case was closed, we've had at least two AE requests (Archive132 and Archive135) related to Doncram's pattern of commenting on contributors, not on content; in both cases, AE admins decided that Doncram's actions hadn't risen to the level of "repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum". As a result, Doncram continues this pattern with edits such as this one: I think it is rotten that some editors feel that they can go around bashing me. Dudemanfellabra, obviously, was being rude, and it was reasonable for Carptrash to sense that, and to be offended. It is even more rude, in my opinion, for Dudemanfellabra to just clarify that he meant to bash me, instead. He meant to offend me, and to trumpet his disrespect to everyone else. Much of the case centered around Doncram's comments on contributors, not content, and if I understood rightly, remedy 2.1 was included to prohibit such actions. Is this what we permit people to say when they've been placed on a general civility probation? If the remedy were created with this kind of edits in mind, Arbcom needs to reword it in such a way that the AE admins will enforce Arbcom's intentions. If Arbcom were simply meaning to solve the general WP:NPA situation and didn't have this specifically in mind, they need to add this prohibition because their current remedies aren't working. Nyttend (talk) 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps my original statement wasn't clear — the only reason I mentioned Carptrash and Dudemanfellabra is that Doncram's mentioned both of them in the diff to which I linked, and they're the only ones (besides Doncram and me) to have participated in the thread in question. Nyttend (talk) 00:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Doncram

(Temporary reply: I will edit this to add some diffs) I myself wondered about opening a clarification question here, specifically about the tenor of remarks by editor Dudemanfellabra in several recent episodes, and about how I should respond. Nyttend links to my response to Dudemanfellabra in current discussion at wt:NRHP. Dudemanfellabra had said something negative directed at me but not completely clearly; another editor took offense; Dudemanfellabra explicitly clarified that he was targeting me; the other editor commented and I responded similarly that I have feelings too. I in fact do not like to be targeted and to be repeatedly bashed publicly.

As I then stated, I honestly don't know how to deal with an editor repeatedly bashing at me. I think it is wrong. I think we can in general have a guideline that editors should comment about edits and not editors, but what if one editor is following and repeatedly commenting in an antagonistic, personal way. I have been wondering if I should open a Request For Comment about Dudemanfellabra, about several recent comments.

I have chosen to respond in different ways: i simply deleted Dudemanfellabra's negative comments and all of the associated discussion section at my own Talk page in one recent case, where another editor was making complaint about good edits that I had made (e.g. this good edit) because I had not done something further on the associated Talk pages, and I was trying to respond positively enough, and Dudemanfellabra chimed in with a negative comment, and after one more comment by the other editor I deleted that all with mild "okay, chat over, thanks" edit summary.

In this post Dudemanfellabra calls my work "half-a**ed"; in the next edit I deleted that with edit summary "Delete swearing post, unwelcome". I am honestly offended at this tone and the words Dudemanfellabra is using.

Showing at wt:NRHP is another Dudemanfellabra comment calling my work out negatively, with 6 links to recent articles or drafts by me, with complaint about "just a lazy longquote from the nomination form as you're so inclined to do." I disagree completely about my work being "lazy" and I disagree completely about appropriate use of good quotes from NRHP nomination documents explaining why places are NRHP-listed. The discussion was not part of any policy or guideline discussion on quotes, it seems to me as just a side jab.

At wt:NRHP just now, in further discussion where Dudemanfellabra targets me, I thought I could not delete Dudemanfellabra's comment although I do feel it amounts to a personal attack--he even emphasizes that he is meaning to attack me personally--and I chose to respond as I did, by saying basically I did not like that. I think it is fair to observe that at least Dudemanfellabra seems to feel entitled to jab me at will, showing disrespect repeatedly. I request that Dudemanfellabra be advised to adhere to standards of civility, and to stop the repeated jabs.

The arbitration case may have not gone far enough to address a culture of negativity and repeated insulting that has grown over many years at WikiProject NRHP and in associated NRHP articles and personal Talk pages. It helped a lot that an interaction ban was put into place, eliminating one source of contention and negativity. The arbitration settlement is not a solution if other editors step up with contention and negativity, however. I rather think what's needed is for NRHP editors, at WikiProject NRHP, to speak up and say they don't want the negativity and the jabs. I was inviting that; what we have here is different, taking the "solution" process away from where it should be taken care of, IMHO. --do ncr am 00:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kumioko

This submission is baseless and the comment that Doncram made, that Nyttend linked too, isn't even derogatory. I could list a dozen edits made by 3 editors alone that are far worse than that. He was simply responding too comments that were left by another editor and stated he had feelings too. I also want to add that the AE complaints that he is referring too were also thrown out for good reason. Editors shouldn't be expected to sit silently after repeated abuse. As I stated in a couple other places I think the Arbcom ban on him creating NRHP articles is a waste of Articles for Creations time. They created a special process just for Doncram because they recognize that its a waste of their time but they are forced into the situation by Arbcom. Kumioko (talk) 00:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Orlady, I feel I must point out that your conduct in the Doncram case was less than steller. Let alone for an admin. I don't deny that Doncram has made some harsh comments but its generally after someone has been unnecessarily harsh or insulting to him. Every link that has been provided shows that. Someone left him a nasty note, frequently uncivil and he responded in a way as to make it obvious he didn't appreciate it. I don't deny that. What I do have a problem with is him being singled out, without anyone saying anything to the other editors. I also have a very low opinion of the fact that no one seems to care and the prevailing desire here seems to be to ban him from the project. Kumioko (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Devils Advocate, I agree completely. This personal crusade by Nyttend against Doncram is far beyond an admin performing their role. He's flat out harassing and hounding Doncram and frankly it appears to me that he is goading Doncram into doing something he can block him for. Utterly unacceptable behavior for anyone, admin or otherwise. Kumioko (talk) 05:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein, your stating essentially that it is ok for other editors to insult Doncram but its not ok for him to comment back to them. Because the whole reason Doncram made those comments is because they were making derogatory comments about him. So, if you are going to punish a user for returning comments to an editor who is insulting them then you also need to be willing to deal with the other editor and tell them to be civil as well, which you seem utterly unwilling to do. These sanctions do nothing but allow a user to be targeted by editors who do not like them or their edits and we all know that there is always someone here in Wikipedia that is not going to like what we do. If you are going to punish Doncram for his comment which to me seem petty for this comment, then someone also needs to tell the other users to stop constantly harassing and insulting him with uncivil comments. Kumioko (talk) 11:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf, there isn't a need to "present them", they are clearly evident in the discussion of the links provided against Doncram. The submitters just picked and choosed Doncrams comments because they supported their case. They didn't bother to present the whole picture because frankly, it would show that there is a lot more to the story than what they want to be known. Anyone can see it if they bothered to look instead of just assuming that the linkn provided is the end of the story which seems to be the case here. I'm not saying Doncram is innocent but when people are constantly harassing him over petty crap and then expect him to just sit there and take it I have a huge problem with that. Also, I couldn't get anyone to take action at ANI over an admin who was violating policy against a clear consensus why would I invest my time in an RFC when multiple admins seem hell bent on getting Doncram banned from the project. I am one editor who a lot of folks don't even like because I am vocal when they do something stupid and screw up. Particularly when they are admins and abuse their rights and status to get their way. If you want evidence go do some due diligence and read the discussions in context. Same goes for those admins and Arbs commenting on here. If your willing to block a user under a sanction for not sitting in a corner and letting others abuse them and not doing or saying anything to those other editors then you should quite being arbs and admins because you don't deserve the position or the responsibility. Kumioko (talk) 14:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Carptrash

I believe that I unknowingly wandered into a combat zone and took a shot that was aimed at someone else. There is obviously history at play here and I don't understand it well enough to offer anything useful. I was invited to comment, I have never been to one of these events before. Now I have and I won't use up more of your energy. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Orlady

As a party to the Arbcom case (but not to the talk-page discussion that precipitated this request), I agree with the request for amendment. In my view, Doncram's long-standing habit of commenting on the person rather than the subject matter -- and of interpreting comments on his content as personal attacks motivated by personal vendettas against him -- was one of the main issues underlying the Arbcom case. I thought that warnings -- rather than sanctions -- under the existing probation were appropriate in the two Arbitration Enforcement instances cited because I hoped that Doncram would heed the warnings. However, that's not working. I think this amendment is needed (1) in view of the recent evidence that he is reverting to the kind of behavior that got us to Arbcom in the first place and (2) because administrators at AE were reluctant to act because the Arbcom remedies did not explicitly refer to this kind of behavior as being subject to sanctions. --Orlady (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Kumioko: If you have serious concerns about my conduct (in the Arbcom case or elsewhere), please provide (ideally somewhere other than this page) diffs illustrating the behavior that you object to. I'm tired of innuendo about my behavior that's based on the theory that "where there's smoke, there must be fire" (i.e., the assumption that Doncram -- and a couple of other users I won't name here -- must have had a valid basis for all those horrible things they said about me). --Orlady (talk) 18:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am pleased to see that Doncram has removed a couple of comments that were sources of concern in this discussion. --Orlady (talk) 16:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dudemanfellabra

I don't really have anything to add either. I believe my evaluation of Doncram's contributions is accurate. Although his contribution history is a long one, anyone willing to take the time to look over everything will see a minimal improvement at best after the arbitration, as far as substantive contributions (i.e. article writing). No one is asking him to create only like featured articles or anything, but as has been said many times before, if he just put a little more time and effort into everything he does to make it more presentable and less quick-fix-y, the number of complaints/attacks about/on him would drop off drastically.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Again? Nyttend needs to leave Doncram alone. It is as simple as that. There is nothing in the diff Nyttend provides that points to any issue unless we are saying that Doncram shouldn't be allowed to object to what other people say about him. He has been dogging Doncram for some time, even using his admin tools to further his interests in their feud, and it is time for it to stop. What Arbs should consider is an amendment enacting an interaction ban between Nyttend and Doncram.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein, did you see the comment Dudeman made? While one could argue that uncivil remarks such as "your trademark quick-fix, let-someone-else-clean-up-my-mess style" are better off ignored, it is quite obscene to suggest that objecting to such remarks is worthy of sanction. I would think the purpose of the probation is to keep Doncram from over-reacting or attacking without prior provocation, not to give anyone he might be in a dispute with a chance to get their licks in with impunity.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mathsci

There does not seem to be any reason for an amendment to the Doncram case. During that case, fault was found with Doncram. The outcome of the case was unambiguous and very little has changed. Continued attempts to suggest otherwise and to cast the blame on others, either here or at WP:AE, are unhelpful, not supported by any evidence and will not alter the outcome of the case.

In the last report at WP:AE, the uninvolved administrators Sandstein, Gatoclass and EdJohnston commented. Doncram was given a logged warning not to personalise discussions. A glance at the talk page of WikiProject NRHP shows that he has taken no notice of that advice. The hyperbolic personalised language—exaggerated claims of being hounded and victimised—that was criticized in the arbitration case is being repeated. It is only the editors at the receiving end of his comments that have changed. That confirms, if confirmation were needed, that it was not other parties in the arbcom case that were at fault. Doncram's comments are unconstructive, create a toxic editing atmosphere and stifle discussion. During the case, Doncram avoided a site ban and a topic ban, partly because parties like Orlady and Nyttend discouraged any measures like that.

The arbitration committee can indicate informally to administrators at WP:AE that the findings concerning Doncram were serious and that he is still on probation. The outcome of the case means that Doncram is not in the situation of a regular editor. If he continues to repeat the conduct criticized in the final decision and for which he has subsequently received a logged warning, then reports at WP:AE of future violations should result in more than just further warnings. Mathsci (talk) 03:36, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The findings of the arbitration committee were written as guidance both for the parties and for uninvolved administrators at WP:AE. They included problems with article editing (2.2) and with responses during discussions (2.1). Exactly the same problems have arisen with new NRHP editors. Those who disagreed with the outcome during the case were given ample opportunity to comment at the time. Recycling those objections now, either here or at WP:AE, is not helpful. "Evidence" of problems with other parties was presented during the case and did not convince arbitrators. Similar claims are being made now. Without supporting diffs, however, assertions of that kind are unhelpful and, as Thryduulf mentions, potentially harmful. Mathsci (talk) 15:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

In reply to AGK: I was one of the administrators who processed the AE requests Nyttend refers to (1 and 2). After re-reading the discussions, it appears to me that while my administrator colleagues and I agreed that Doncram's conduct was problematic, we were of the view that it did not rise to the level of "repeatedly or seriously", as envisaged in the relevant sanction, that would require action beyond an explicit warning. At least on my part, what may also have been relevant was an impression that the conduct by some of the editors engaged in disputes with Doncram appeared similarly confrontative, such that sanctioning Doncram only might have created the appearance of one-sidedness. In view of the most recent edit cited here by Nyttend, it does now appear to me, prima facie, that Doncram's practice of commenting about contributors rather than content, in a derogatory manner ("stop Dudemanfellabra from polluting [the project]") meets the requirement of repeated misconduct that would warrant sanctions, if this were an enforcement request. Sandstein 05:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Several users have criticized that the sanction only covers misconduct by Doncram, not by others. As indicated above, I agree in principle that this is not optimal. In my view, the Arbitration Committee should try to craft conduct restrictions in such a way that all users involved in a (future) dispute can be held to the same standard of conduct - for example, by way of discretionary sanctions or other topic-level restrictions. However, once the case is closed and we are at WP:AE, we must apply the sanctions as they are written, not as we may wish them to be written, even if that means that we must sanction users who are subject to individualized restrictions (for what I must assume are good reasons) for conduct we are not authorized to sanction in others. If that turns out to be a problem, interested users may petition the Committee, through this process, to modify the sanction. But in this case, I do not think that the possibility of Doncram being provoked into disruptive behavior warrants amending the sanction. In my view, everyone is responsible for their own conduct, without regard to what others may have done. That means everyone is also responsible for not letting themselves be provoked. Including not by comments such as "your trademark quick-fix, let-someone-else-clean-up-my-mess style": While I agree that such comments are uncollegial and confrontative and ought to be avoided, they do focus on a reasonably specific perceived content problem, rather than on Doncram as a person, which is why I would argue they fall short of being sanctionable, at least under our current (regrettably loose, in my view) civility standards. Sandstein 15:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by EdJohnston

@AGK: I participated in the May 28 AE. I agree with Sandstein that if more reports are made to AE of a similar nature we should consider taking some admin action. Blocking is something to consider, but short blocks seem unlikely to affect the long-term hostilities. In June 2012, User:Doncram returned to editing after a six-month block without evidence of any change. Read his talk page for the dates immediately following his return. See the tone of the Round Barn talk thread of June 2012. Doncram was picking up just where he left off, both in the positive sense (content) and the negative sense (interpersonal) [6]. See the comment about 'hateful behavior':

If you are a person reading this who has in the past engaged in what a reasonable person can view as hateful behavior, please reconsider your interest here, and please go away, please leave me alone.

The six month block was the last community action taken, and if the problem continues, one could see the argument for a 12-month block. Another option might be more restrictions on Doncram. That couldn't be done at AE, but a new request for amendment could be made to the committee. Short blocks for incivility in a case like this one seem like they wouldn't stop the endless recurrence of the problem. EdJohnston (talk) 15:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf

@Kumioko, The Devil's Advocate and others

If you feel that one or more users are harrassing and/or baiting Doncram, then you need to present evidence (diffs) of this behaviour in a suitable location, probably an RfC about their conduct. Being on the receiving end of incivility does not excuse anyone from acting incivilly themselves, but if you feel that he is being baited and that this should reduce any punishment then you need to comment to this effect at AE when his incivility is brought there.

Accusations of baiting, without presenting evidence of such, are just as harmful as actual baiting is (c.f. Orlady's "smoke without fire" comment). Thryduulf (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gatoclass

I'm inclined to agree that there is no need for an amendment to the case and that I see no reason why a complaint of this type couldn't be handled at WP:AE. Gatoclass (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

The thing here is that Doncram could already be placed under the restriction you suggest under the terms of his existing probation if, at WP:AE, the evidence were there to justify or if an individual administrator felt strongly enough to do so. Am I misreading this or is it being suggested that the sanction be modified in order to encourage others to sanction them and/or make it easier for them to do so? Roger Davies ^talk 05:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We need to hear from the administrators who declined to sanction Doncram after the Arbitration Enforcement (AE) requests in question. Nyttend, please notify the AE administrators of this amendment request, and then tell us when you have done so. We need to know why the administrators determined they should not sanction Doncram. AGK [•] 13:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with AGK. NW (Talk) 03:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Ed: AE actually has quite a lot of flexibility here. R2.1 was written as a "you can try to do anything short of a site ban" remedy. I originally proposed that remedy because it is clear that while Doncram has a lot to offer the community, normal sanctioning procedure has not worked. That's not holding him to a different standard; that's saying that procedural restrictions on obtaining consensus for novel sanctions to address the same problematic behavior as another hypothetical editor can be dropped. With that said, I don't think that there is much that the Committee could or should do in this instance, and I think it's up to the broader community to address the matter in the manner that they see best. NW (Talk) 16:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In light of Sandstein's statement, I don't think it's necessary for us to intervene here. T. Canens (talk) 10:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Ed: Remedy 2.1 explicitly allows for the imposition of "any other sanction that the administrator deems appropriate". AE is fully empowered to impose additional restrictions to address the issues, and to enforce them with blocks if necessary. T. Canens (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support Sandstein's comments. There has traditionally been difficulty/discomfort in imposing conduct sanctions on a user who is unnecessarily provoked, and there may be room to consider a provision somewhere that users found to have unnecessarily provoked a user under conduct sanctions should share in the imposed sanction. Dudemanfellabra's remark was uncollegiate, and it may be appropriate for AE admins to consider giving him a warning. Meanwhile, Doncram should have better sense at this stage than to respond in the manner that he did. However, AE can handle this, and Sandstein appears to be on top of it. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:59, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for amendment (March 2014)

Original Amendment Request

NO ACTION

Not accepted. No action required. For the Arbitration Committee, Rockfang (talk) 06:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Initiated by SarekOfVulcan (talk) at 16:17, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Doncram arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 5

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Doncram notified by Thryduulf (talk) 16:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Information about amendment request

Remedy 5
I would like to have the ban removed

Statement by SarekOfVulcan

During my last RFA, the interaction ban was a reason for at least one of the opposes. It has been in place for a year. I would like to establish that this ban is no longer necessary before running again, so I ask that it be removed so I can work on establishing a track record.

@Beeblebrox - over the past year, I've adapted to a much less confrontational style of editing. I'd like to be able to prove that the ban isn't needed anymore, but the only way to do that is to try it and find out. I'm sure there are more than enough people out there who will be happy to alert you if I'm mistaken. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, I'm not asking for the ban to be removed so that I can interact with Doncram - just so that I can establish that I can avoid him without being forced to. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:44, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Candleabracadabra - yes, I was asking for the ban to be removed, not to be changed to be one-sided. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Carcharoth - That sounds like a good plan. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Worm_That_Turned - oh, there were definitely other issues at play there. This was the only one that I couldn't affect by just changing my behavior. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Doncram

No way, if it is up to me, unless it is part of a complete revocation of all restrictions against me, including a ban on my editing in NRHP area, and unless there is an explicit promise by SarekOfVulcan that he shall not follow and combat me, and that should be enforceable (i.e., in effect be a continuing interaction ban). The interaction ban was a result of arbitration begun by SarekOfVulcan, following long campaign of following my edits and combatting which dragged down my reputation, including multiple ANIs and AFDs and discussion at Jimbo Wales Talk page, and so on, and which I and some others perceived and still perceive as unjustified bullying, and the interaction ban was the only good outcome of the case. SarekOfVulcan has not communicated any meaningful apology for his actions, publicly or privately; his comnents in recent RFA were patheticly inadequate. I cannot see what he could say publicly or privately that would be adequate, either. --do ncr am 18:01, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Candleabracadabra

I think that Doncram has done an impressive job of abiding by very biting restrictions on his editing. I urge the Arb committee to lift these sanctions so he can return to making positive contributions. The restrictions have been a loss to Wikipedia and his fellow editors. I oppose a one-sided removal of restrictions. As Doncram has noted, the problems were in large part a result of Sarek's combative behavior. Sarek promises that he has learned form past mistakes. Doncram has been punished long enough. And the NRHP editing environment has gotten worse without his presence, enormously useful contributions, and assistance to fellow editors. Candleabracadabra (talk) 02:43, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify per Sarek's response, if you can avoid engagement with Doncram his editing restrictions as well as the interaction ban should be removed. If you hadn't pursued the conflict with him the ban on his editing and the ban on your interacting him would BOTH not be in place. You are requesting to remove your interaction ban so you can further your political aspirations on Wiki without moving to assist him in having his full editing priviledges restored. The loss of his ability to work on NRHP subjects has been very bad for his fellow editors and for Wikipedia. You should work to resolve that issue if you want your restrictions lifted and think you can be an effective administrator. Doncram masde enormous contributions to an area you r involvement in the dispute got him banned from. I don't think you should be allowed to "move on" without helping to end the dispute and helping to restore this hugely constructive editor to good standing in the article area where he did SO MUCH good. Candleabracadabra (talk) 03:00, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Orlady

I tried to refrain from commenting here, but here I am, anyway. Seeing that it's been a full year since this arbcom case closed and both parties have apparently successfully abided by the mutual interaction ban, I think it would be timely to remove the imposed ban on mutual interaction and replace it with a voluntary agreement to avoid interaction.
I call your attention to some prehistory of this case that I believe is relevant background on the interaction ban: ANI discussion from July 2012. SarekOfVulcan started that discussion by expressing concern about several statements that Doncram had made about me that Sarek (and I) deemed to be serious personal attacks. That discussion led to a (temporary) voluntary moratorium on interactions (between Doncram and both Sarek and me). The voluntary moratorium was proposed by User:Cbl62 in a comment that stated, in part: I really don't care to get into a "blame" or "fault" game, but the relationship between these good people has been very negative for more than a year. ... I don't see [Doncram] reacting with similar venom except toward Orlady and Sarek. Given the past history, any criticism he receives from Sarek and Orlady is received with extreme sensitivity. As I see it, the principal reason for avoiding interactions between Sarek and Doncram (and between Doncram and me) was and still is Doncram's "extreme sensitivity" to interactions with Sarek (and me) -- and his history of displaying that extreme sensitivity by reacting in an uncivil fashion. Arbcom's decision to apply an imposed interaction ban (in lieu of a voluntary "ban") between Sarek and Doncram seems to have been motivated mainly by the fact that Sarek had deliberately edit-warred, violating 3RR. Given the apparent nature of Doncram's perceptions of and reactions to Sarek (and what appears to be a more severely negative perception of and reaction to me), it is understandable that Doncram would oppose any relaxation of the ban. However, both of these editors are grownups who should be able to regulate their behavior and their emotions without a ban. If the year-long interaction ban was not long enough to allow Doncram to "get over" the effects of edit-warring that occurred in 2011, that does not bode well for any future requests he might make to vacate other restrictions that resulted from this case.
I believe that both parties would abide by a voluntary agreement, and if they do so, the history of success possibly could help Doncram support a future request to review the other restrictions. --Orlady (talk) 16:09, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Sarek, I have to say you haven't give us much to go on here. You want to establish that the ban is not necessary so you can run for RFA again. You wanting to be an admin again is not a reason for the committee to do anything. In other words, I would want to see something a little more compelling that "it's been a year" to reassure that the problems of the past would not happen again. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:20, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For the interaction ban to be totally removed from both parties (as SoV is requesting) so that SoV can demonstrate that he is able to avoid commenting on Doncram, we need to assess whether the same applies to Doncram (whether Doncram can exercise sufficient self-control). If Doncram can demonstrate that they have reached a point where they can move forward as regards the interaction ban, then I would consider reducing this to both being informally 'bound over to hold the peace' with a full lifting a year later, otherwise I would only consider reducing this to a one-way interaction ban (with SoV informally agreeing not to interact with Doncram for another year - equivalent to being bound over to hold the peace). The difference is that breaches of an interaction ban can lead to a block. Breaches of an informal 'bound over to hold the peace' type arrangements would lead to re-imposition of the interaction ban (at WP:AE) rather than a block. The issue of Doncram's topic ban should be raised separately and filed by Doncram himself (if he wishes to do so) rather than raised by others (as above). Carcharoth (talk) 08:35, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Years ago, while discussing an IBAN proposal on ANI, someone (can't remember who) wrote this is an interaction ban, not an interaction blame, to emphasise that interaction bans do not necessarily presuppose misbehaviour on the part of either user, but rather they are imposed when two or more people have demonstrated that, for whatever reason, they are unable to interact in a productive fashion and their interactions usually result in a massive waste of time for everyone. For that reason, even if an interaction ban is lifted, it's generally a good idea for both parties to continue to avoid each other.
Also, since interaction bans are reciprocal in nature and are meant to protect both editors from the negative effects their interactions usually have, they should be lifted only if a. both editors agree or b. there is a very important reason to do so. The desire to run for adminship, for me, is not reason enough to override Doncram's objection. $Salvio$ ^{Let's talk about it!} 09:55, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's annoying when you've written your thoughts down, only to have another arb edit conflict with you and say it better. Salvio. In summary, interaction bans are there to stop the disruption caused by two people interacting - there's so much history there that the interactions are never going to be productive. I really don't like one-way interaction bans for that reason, and agree to them only in exceptional circumstances. Having looked at the RfA in question, I don't believe the issue was the interaction ban, but rather how Sarek handled questions regarding the case. I do not see that lifting the interaction ban would be helpful, especially with Doncram's objection. Worm^TT(talk) 10:10, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above so far as the interaction ban removal is concerned; that being that if one party to the IBAN objects to lifting it, we would need very good cause to overrule that, and "I want to file an RfA" does not meet that burden. Sarek is not barred from filing an RfA by the sanction and could explain the ban in the candidate statement if so desired. Modification of any other sanction imposed as a discretionary sanction should go through the normal appeals process for DS. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Decline, per Seraphimblade et al. AGK [•] 16:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The IBAN does not restrict you from running for adminship, and I am not inclined to remove the ban, particularly with Doncram's objection. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:40, 25 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.