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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 36.76.226.238 (talk) at 15:02, 27 January 2020 (→Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2020: Request add utc). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Merge into Kobe Bryant?

Does this really need a separate article? Simeon (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support merge: Deaths of celebrities do not deserve a separate article. His death was part of a helicopter crash and so the main article will be the helicopter crash. His death section can redirect to the page of the helicopter crash.
  • Support merge: I agree, this doesn’t need its own article as most celebrity deaths don’t. — MarkH21talk 21:17, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BOLDly making a redirect. His death is not really independently notable. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:19, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bryant was very notable and this crash included others than just him. There will likely be an investigation into this tragedy too. It will get bogged down in his article. I'd say it its own event not just his death. The article also meets WP:GNG. HC7Leave me a message! 21:19, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If so many unusual details emerge from the investigation that the section becomes cumbersome, then split it off into its own article. There may not be a need for more than two or three paragraphs in the future, and there isn’t a need for a separate article with the information available right now. — MarkH21talk 21:24, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with merge, in part. This incident may be notable regarding the accident only. For example, if you search for "Death of Ted Stevens", you are redirected to 2010 Alaska DHC-3 Otter crash. In the latter case, there also 5 deaths, including one famous person. I would support an article about the crash, but not his death.Juneau Mike (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That crash had three notable people involved in total, so there’s no case for leaving it within a single existing article unlike this accident. — MarkH21talk 21:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Plenty of aviation accidents where only one notable person died are their own articles. See: Death of Stevie Ray Vaughan and Death of Aaliyah, among others. ~ HAL333 23:03, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What made Diana's crash notable was the conspiracy theories and such around it. Also, she was a princess... EvergreenFir (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Definitely notable. The internet crashed. Even ignoring the helicopter, the reaction alone is notable. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 22:06, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps once RS coverage of the reaction as a separate cultural phenomenon emerges. It’s too soon at the moment to need to split the section off. — MarkH21talk 21:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Internet crashed? They need to keep up with the growth rate of population, and growth rate of users. Internet should update their servers - nothing to do with wikipedia. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:05, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose, see Death of David Bowie. Certain celebrity deaths are notable enough for their own article. CatcherStorm talk 21:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Only when RS coverage of the reaction as a separate cultural phenomenon emerges. There’s no current need to split the section off. — MarkH21talk 21:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Along with my previous statement I think that it should be renamed to 2020 Calabasas Helicopter Crash, similar to what Juneau Mike said.HC7Leave me a message! 21:31, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Apparently it's not the circumstances around his death that are notable; rather, it is the fact that he died. However, Bryant is very notable, and considering that more major details about his death are being reported minute-by-minute, and the fact that multiple memorials and tributes to him will probably be held, I cannot see a reason for why this should be merged into the main article--if there is a consensus for a merge, it will be far too long for that by the time that it is merged. | abequinnfourteen 21:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Abequinn14: At least as far as I am aware, each and every notable person that has died till now, has died for fact. Also: WP:NOTNEWS is exactly for incidents like this. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree per MarkH21. The helicopter crash is currently only notable for Bryant's death, which could be included in Kobe_Bryant#Death. With respect to the comparison to 2010 Alaska DHC-3 Otter crash, this flight also carried at least three notable people, two of whom did not die. userdude 21:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That argument had been debunked. See: Death of Stevie Ray Vaughan and Death of Aaliyah, among others. ~ HAL333 23:05, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of celebrities have died prematurely but not each one has its own article. The circumstances of the crash will dictate the notability of this incident, not just the fact that Kobe died. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 21:36, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I guarantee that this will soon grow to several paragraphs in length, nothing to be concerned of. ~ HAL333 23:03, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That argument has been debunked even before you thought of it. See: WP:CRYSTAL. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:16, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge at this time. Allow the many updates about the crash that will follow in the next week or so to be handled here. Once the flow of new content ebbs, re-raise the question. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:41, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment: Agreed, once more information comes out it would be better to re-discuss the merger. HC7Leave me a message! 21:43, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect to the other three casualties, every source I've read so far has focused only on Kobe and his daughter. They're the ones that make the crash notable to begin with. Prinsgezinde (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge: But merge the article with both Kobe Bryant and 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash. KingSkyLord (talk | contribs) 22:13, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weakly support merge What fresh hell awaits me this time...a separate article should only be considered when more information comes out. For now, keep it in the main article. We REALLY need a better system for this. ShadowCyclone talk 22:18, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • support merge for now: wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. A celebrity died - obviously it is going to be covered in news by reliable sources. To have a seperate article, the death should have WP:SUSTAINED coverage over the time. Till then, let the content be in his own article. Internet broke? Too bad. Internet should update their servers. Princess Diana's death still gets significant coverage. I know who David Bowie was, and honestly speaking I never even heard of Bryant till I saw his name in wikipedia's "in the news". Zero coverage in Indian news. Thats 18% of the world population unaware of his death, or even his existence. No mention in Irish news either. Other stuff exists: stop comparing, and move on. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:41, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure you know what you are talking about. Indian news covered this three hours ago: [1] and Irish news 3 hours ago as well.[2] That's another 18% of the world aware of his death. Please don't back up your argument with lies. ~ HAL333 23:18, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • No. They only published it, it is not automatically visible anywhere, unless one searches for it. Not on news TV channel either. Thats still 18% of the world population unaware of his death, or even his existence. Ireland's population is a minuscule fraction. I will give you that. And reputation of e-copy of TOI is similar to tabloids. It publishes anything and everything in the hopes of getting visitors. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • You were the one who brought up the weak examples of Ireland and India, not me buddy. And they are covering it on Indian TV channels.[3] Once again, you should actually check to make sure you're not just spouting false information. ~ HAL333 23:49, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/more-sports/nba-legend-kobe-bryant-dies-in-helicopter-crash-report/articleshow/73645217.cms
  2. ^ https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/american-sports/legendary-nba-star-kobe-bryant-41-and-teenage-daughter-killed-in-helicopter-accident-38896907.html
  3. ^ https://www.indiatvnews.com/sports/other-basketball-legend-kobe-bryant-killed-in-helicopter-crash-in-california-583305
That wasn’t a merge. That article was verbatim copied from here and then turned back into a redirect. — MarkH21talk 22:26, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The merge went into the other direction. This article is still "Death of Kobe Bryant".Tvx1 22:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge Per WP:N No evidence that this event is independently notable at this moment. His daughter was not independently notable either. No evidence of notability of the other three occupants.Tvx1 22:25, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge A multi fatality crash involving a celebrity is independently notable, especially in aviation. We've established such articles for celebrities like Aaliyah and Samantha Smith. Worth its own article. DrewieStewie (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no article for the death of Samantha Smith, and the Death of Aaliyah article delves deeply into lawsuits, causes of the crash and many other factors that held notability for years after the fact. It was enough relevant information that a separate article was warranted. However, we have no idea what happened here. Creating an article this early would be premature. Prinsgezinde (talk) 22:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect on Samantha Smith. (Bar Harbor Airlines Flight 1808) DrewieStewie (talk) 22:40, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash article exists, and is pretty similar in scope to this one. 23:56, 26 January 2020 (UTC)Hemiauchenia (talk)
  • Strong support for merge: Don't rush to create articles. This article was created prematurely. There is a reason death articles get created, and that is because there is so much to say about the deaths that a separate article is necessary. In this case, a death article was perhaps a bit enthousiastically made the very day it happened. We don't even have all the information yet! Prinsgezinde (talk) 22:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose if the title changed to something more general about the main event, which is the helicopter crash. Support if the title is only Kobe's death.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 22:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge as per the standard set with previous similar incidents. I do think it's a good idea to change the title to be more general in agreement with SharabSalam above, but I think it should be separate either way. Jokullmusic 22:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such standard. In some cases there is an article, in some there isn't. Each case is judged individually bases on notability.Tvx1 22:38, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge This was merged with the 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash. Kobe's death was the news story of the day and will be for the rest of the month, at the minimum. Unexpected death and one of the most notable basketball players of all time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pennsylvania2 (talk • contribs) 22:26, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Merge The chopper crash itself is not notable, was a one-off thing, and means little save for the occupant. Nothing weird or extraordinary appears to have caused the crash. Best to leave it with the original article- Veryproicelandic (talk) 22:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously this is a "one-off thing." Should he die twice to make this notable? Come on. ~ HAL333 23:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Veryproicelandic's wording was not exactly appropriate regarding the departed. To establish notability, subject's death need to have a WP:SUSTAINED coverage. What we are having is news-bursts, and wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:24, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Merge. Needs a new title for sure, but this is going to be a notable crash. It's now reported there were 9 fatalities instead of 5. And Kobe Bryant was an iconic player. All that is a perfect storm of a notable helicopter crash, especially when compared to others on Wikipedia. I want to start some other requests for a move of those above "Death of" articles, but don't know if it wouldn't be rude. --Quiz shows 22:51, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support MergeIf there was more than one notable death in this crash like that Leicester crash in 2018, then yeah it may deserve its own article based on the name of the crash but sinde Kobe was the ony notable death in this crash, it doesn't desrve its own article--27.123.139.134 (talk) 22:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure about that? Only one notable person died in the helicopter crash of Stevie Ray Vaughan (Death of Stevie Ray Vaughan), yet that has its own page. Does his death not deserve its own article? What about Death of Aaliyah? Bit of a hole in your statement there. ~ HAL333 22:59, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Musician are on a different level to sport stars, Aaliyah's death was shocking, so was Stevie Ray's.. when was the last time we gave the death of an athlete their own article? unless more news pops out regarding this like for those 2 musicians you mentioned, it still doesn't qualify--27.123.139.134 (talk) 00:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@HAL333: Great example, the title of the article you linked is John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash hence focusing on the crash which took the life of JFK Jr. This article is not about the crash, but about the death of Kobe Bryant including reaction and soon memorials. Wikipedia has many articles about helicopter crashes which famous individuals are not involved. There are many sources currently speculating or releasing technical details involving the crash which would be relevant to the 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash article, but not the death of Kobe. Both article are notable, but the crash holds its own weight. There should be article on the Death of Kobe only if there is also an article on the crash itself. Valoem talk contrib 23:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to change the title to one of the ones proposed below to make it less focused on Kobe, but that RFC was shut down. Ill try to reopen it after this. ~ HAL333 23:40, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
None of which justifies a separate article on dealing only with his death. It can be more than adequately be covered in his own article.Tvx1 00:08, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Merge as proposed - Bryant was a world renown celebrity. Nine people died in this crash. Needs a better title but this is a notable tragedy and will be for many years to come. CBS527Talk 23:30, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose - Given his level of success and fame, and the significance of the event's aftermath, I can see why some users above have made comparisons to the JFK Jr crash, among others. Should definitely have its own article, though perhaps not with this title. Skycycle (talk) 23:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge With both Bryant's and the crash article; I would oppose if the crash didn't have an article, but since it does this is just a duplicate but with a title that doesn't reference the rest of the info on the crash that is included anyway. Kingsif (talk) 23:38, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:FORK. A "death of" article should only be considered when the volume of encyclopedic information sourcable to reliable secondary sources begins to be a WP:WEIGHT issue in the biographical article. IT HAPPENED TODAY. THERE ARE NO SECONDARY SOURCES. News accounts are primary. John from Idegon (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose merge but a new title is necessary: Actually this is a very unique and significant incident and may have great repurcussions. Here we can develop further information not necessarily appropriate in the Kobe Bryant Personal life section. But I am objecting to the title. This was not just Kobe Bryant's death but many others as well. I would suggest for example Kobe Bryant helicopter crash or something along that line. Each victim also deserves a paragraph as well. werldwayd (talk) 23:36, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can get behind Kobe Bryant helicopter crash which is supported by COMMONNAME. We should close this discussion as no consensus and start a move discussion to Kobe Bryant helicopter crash. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 23:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion has been open for two hours. There's no rush to close the discussion so quickly. — MarkH21talk 23:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Don't mistake the non-existence of past move/merge discussions on other articles for a general consensus. There's also not much of an argument in comparing articles. Just because something else exists doesn't mean that it should nor that this should. — MarkH21talk 23:57, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@MarkH21: Nine people have died in this helicopter crash, it is clearly independently notable as many other helicopter crashes with casualties not involving famous people also have articles. I'm not sure what your logic is if notability guidelines can't be applied consistently. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:03, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? I'm pointing out that the also exist without opposition shouldn't mean anything. Whether notability guidelines, WP:CONTENTFORK, or WP:OVERLAP apply to this individual article is separate. — MarkH21talk 00:06, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Exist without oppositon" is poor phrasing on my part for which I apologise. What I mean is that the incidient qualifies for the standards of notability as they are currently applied by the community. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:Crystall.Tvx1 00:08, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Oppose The accident is currently under unknown/unusual circumstances. A massive investigation will soon follow, and thus warrants a separate article. The fact that nine people died, that alone warrants a separate article. This should NOT be merged. In addition to that, the response from the President, former presidents, and other significant figures will have to be documented. 2600:6C5E:137F:E5B0:F448:FC39:A369:654E (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The existence of an investigation does not in itself justify an article.Tvx1 00:09, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment A lot is still unclear, I think we should wait a few days (or weeks) until we know a bit more. Rebestalic[dubious—discuss] 00:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would most likely agree with this option, however there isn't enough information on the 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash, and that could possibly stay merged with the Death of Kobe Bryant article. TwinTurbo (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with many others that the title of this is wrong at it should be about the incident. Hopefully the closer of this will take into account the speedly closed move request below. AIRcorn (talk) 00:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change title The crash itself is notable enough to warrant a Wikipedia article. However, other people died in the crash too, and it should be titled something along the lines of "2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash" to reflect that. Canuck89 (Converse with me) 01:08, January 27, 2020 (UTC)
  • Weak Support Based on the level of coverage already received and likely to continue, I think this event likely passes the criteria for WP:EVENT. That said, at the moment there isn't enough material to justify the WP:FORK from the main article. So I would go ahead and merge this entirely into the main article and turn this into a redirect until such time as it gets big enough to justify a stand alone article. My guess is that we will get there. But for now there's just not enough to justify the separate page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:16, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge but support renameThis event is notable as a helicopter crash that killed 9 people, not because of Kobe Bryant. The article should be called "Calabasas helicopter crash". To call this article "Death of Kobe Bryant" is an insult to the other people who died. Narayansg (talk) 01:39, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This article is already decently sized at almost 20,000 bytes and will continue to grow. Even now, I think its size is too cumbersome to add into the main biographical article. One can only imagine what it'll be like in a few days. ~ HAL333 01:45, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge – There isn't enough content to write about this event to justify WP:SPLITing it off the main article (Kobe Bryant). It may be that at some point in the future, the "Death" section of Kobe Bryant will get so long as to justify a SPLIT; we're not there yet. Levivich 02:11, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but possibly rename - Can already tell this is going to be of long-lasting importance both as the death of a major athlete and as an aviation disaster. Could possibly be renamed, however, as eight other people died, including his daughter. Even as a general article on the crash, however, this should be of long-term relevance. Toa Nidhiki05 02:30, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge, rename, keep "Death of Kobe Bryant" and other suggested names as redirects There is sufficient info about the crash, and as a community, we traditionally use a common name for aviation and railroad incidents. --Enos733 (talk) 02:39, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge what's the rush? Wait and see how the article develops over the next few weeks and then we can have this discussion again if necessary. Lepricavark (talk) 02:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This isn’t just another celebrity death honestly. I’m seeing similarities between Kobe’s death to Michael Jackson’s death just with the high number of tributes even outside of basketball. We also should keep the current name.--Rockchalk717 02:43, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge and also rename to 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash. College baseball coach John Altobelli, his wife, and daughter, were also killed, and we have a new article about him. It would be best not to refer to this as "the Kobe Bryant crash". Yoninah (talk) 02:45, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Merge & Support Rename There is enough information about the event that warrants its own article but it should be renamed as others died and it's importance to aviation history. 2604:6000:6700:F00:3821:B66F:D37F:D2E8 (talk) 02:54, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge and rename to "2020 Calabasas helicopter crash" per above. I don't think a rename to the specific build of the plane would be useful and would be probably unknown and hard to search for most readers. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 03:06, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge - Major news sources such as CNN are continuosly giving updates on the death of Kobe Bryant. He was just 41 years old prior to the unprecedented death and the helicopter accident is very much notable. The article itself is well written and would be updated in coming days. The videos regarding the helicopter crash have become viral and the death of this personality is very much important. It is better to have a separate article as he was one of the NBA legends. Abishe (talk) 03:12, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge - This is clearly an extremely unusual case of a celebrity's life taken in their youth by a freak accident, similar to Princess Diana but on a lesser scale. The reaction should also be enough. WakandaForever188 (talk) 03:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge: There is a lot of information that will come out as a result and that information will become bloated on the main Kobe Bryant article. Also considering the constant media attention, I think it garners enough notability for its own article. If the Lynyrd Skynyrd plane crash can have its own article, there is no reason why this can't. Dpm12 (talk) 03:35, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge: Right now, it's not that long of an article as the story is still developing, maybe if it get's big it can branch into a seperate article, but for now, merge it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:5900:46D:5904:57AE:EB9B:E839 (talk • contribs)
  • Strong Oppose Due to WP:AIRCRASH Notability guideline. But the article really should be renamed to reflect the incident with the aircraft. However I believe that discussion was closed prematurely and should be reopened. Sawblade5 (talk to me | my wiki life) 03:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That’s not a notability guideline, it’s a user essay. — MarkH21talk 03:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Either way it pertains to past discussions on rather to delete or merge articles pertaining to Aircraft incidents and should apply here. The article should stand on it's own for the crash especially when we get the information on all the victims and the cause of the accident from the investigations. It could use some clean up and maybe merge some of the content back into the Kobe Bryant article and have this focus more on the crash. Sawblade5 (talk to me | my wiki life) 04:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge:The helicopter crash would have been a notable event even without one of the greatest basketball players of all time being a victim. Also, Kobe's article was very long even before he died, and his death, spectacular though it was, was basically a sidebar to his short but eventful life.
  • Oppose merge:Roberto Clemente's plane crash received its own page with less overall fatalities. A 9 person helicopter crash would be significant on its own, regardless of the occupants. Kobe's death makes this a highly significant event, and the worldwide media coverage is a good indicator.
  • Strong Oppose merge: The crash itself is enough to warrant its own article. This shouldn't even be a discussion. CrispyCream27 (Talk) 05:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge: These types of celebrity deaths receive their own articles all of the time. It should not change here, especially since this death is significant and received a lot of media attention. Swordman97 talk to me 05:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Merge: Although the main person focused on the crash is Kobe Bryant, the crash involes other people, and the information in the death article contains relatively irrelavant information to him.Can I Log In (talk) 05:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge: This title should redirect to the crash article. The content here merged into his own page. Although I recognize that most these proposals won't go anywhere till the story dies down. Hydromania (talk) 05:39, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge and rename to "2020 Calabasas helicopter crash" – his death doesn't warrant a stand alone article, the fact that he died along with 5 other people in a helicopter crash is the news that is meeting GNG and should have its own stand alone article. cookie monster (2020) 755 08:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge and rename - quite suitable given his status and the impact it will have♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge, Oppose rename, Oppose split. First off, Bryant's death is a major event, and deserves its own article. The second reason is, that as the current article stays separate, there won't be a requirement to split off the crash event. -Mardus /talk 09:45, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the arguments

Without voting I can see a lot of WP:WAX when it comes to other people and their death articles. The ones putting forward policy related arguments are those in favor of a merge, and those who want this to be about the helicopter crash as a whole. I am hesitant to be the closer here as I believe this should run at least 24 hours before being decided upon. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I don't think this falls under WAX though, since there are numerous examples of articles of avation accidents with less than a dozen causalties and so therefore the it isn't about specific articles, but a whole class of articles. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:39, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
lol. You just compared it with other stuff while saying WAX doesnt apply. Number of deaths in accident is not the only criteria. Yes, if the number is huge, it is notable. But an accident with no deaths at all can become notable if WP:SUSTAINED coverage, and not just news coverage :) —usernamekiran (talk) 08:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Hemiauchenia here. If it's just being compared to one article, then WP:WAX might apply. If there are dozens if not hundreds of comparable articles, some of which have achieved GA or even FA status, then it really doesn't, since it's clear it meets the established standard. And plenty of oppose votes did so on GNG grounds as well, either implicitly or explicitly. Plus I find it hard to believe that an article with 30+ sources fails GNG. Smartyllama (talk) 02:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Smartyllama, you can't conceive of how an article with 30+ references can't meet GNG? I can think of dozens of ways. Here, the applicable one is lack of reliable secondary sources. There are none. The first one will be the NTSB report, which is months, if not years, out. John from Idegon (talk) 03:40, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Smartyllama: there are 30+ reliable sources in US. A celebrity died, they published news. Normal. To achive notanility, such subjects have to receive WP:SUSTAINED coverage, not news coverage. I hope this answers your query :) —usernamekiran (talk) 08:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The WAX point is legitimate, since these are different cases (e.g. involving different numbers of notable people or having a culturally significant aftermath in the following months). Plus, there’s a lot of it’s in the news!, legendary person I’ve heard of (or haven’t), and crystal balling here (on both sides). There are also GNG arguments that don’t take the issue of merging or content forking into account. — MarkH21talk 03:35, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article name change

Just change the article name to focus on the crash itself, similar to all the aviation crash articles throughout Wikipedia. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 04:03, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See the below RFC, we’ll get to changing the name once these other editors stop obstructing us. ~ HAL333 04:05, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
AGF, don’t use battleground rhetoric. — MarkH21talk 04:24, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If this is aviation crash, not information about Kobe Bryant any informations about it must use DMY format, with exception of US topics. I'm okay for using MDY as this crash happened inside US but if Kobe Bryant was killed in helicopter incident but happened outside US, these article should use international DMY format. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.76.226.238 (talk) 06:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article photo: Trump helicopter?

Would it be OK if we used one of the existing photos from the Sikorsky_S-76 article instead of this photo of one of Trump's helicopter? Nothing against Trump, but it seems unrelated and distracting from the topic.

Proposed Move

NO ACTION
Speedy close. There is no deadline. All of the proposed helicopter crash article already titles redirect here. Let's have one discussion at a time. The merge discussion is getting unnecessarily complicated by having both of these discussions ongoing. Surachit (talk) 22:41, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible names to move this to: 2020 Calabasas Sikorsky S-76B crash, 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash, 2020 Calabasas crash or perhaps Kobe Bryant helicopter crash. ~ HAL333 22:10, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's even worse. The death is more notable than the crash itself. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
5 people died. There are wikipedia articles over random plane crashes much less notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HAL333 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's only been an hour as well so of course it seems so far that the crash itself isn't as notable. But so far the death is notable and the crash will be notable for the death of Bryant and the aftermath. HC7Leave me a message! 21:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly agree, this is not just about Kobe, five people died. See 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash and John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash --François Calvaresi (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See also 2018 Leicester helicopter crash
 Comment: The only reason the crash is being covered as it is is because Kobe died in it. CatcherStorm talk 21:36, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment: The crash would have been covered anyways, its just national headlines because Kobe died. It's Kobe's personal copter so it would have been covered quite a bit even if no one died and it was just the crash. HC7Leave me a message! 21:40, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note that I said "as it is". The media will be heavily covering the crash for a long foreseeable future, this isn't just another helicopter crash. Of course the media are going to cover a helicopter crash, but they will be covering it for a long time to come since Kobe died as a result. CatcherStorm talk 21:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SNOW does not apply here. There are multiple people here opposing and supporting a merger. CatcherStorm talk 21:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly agree per François Calvaresi - Premeditated (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose move, as the current title is immediately recognizable, no benefit to obfuscating at this point in time. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:48, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, the title currently says "Death of Kobe Bryant" but the infobox says "Deaths: 5"; that's pretty confusing, I think it should either be included in the article that 4 others died or the title changed. Bluecrab2 (talk) 21:50, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Someone already created an article for the crash titled 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like that is too wordy. ~ HAL333 22:02, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly agree, see 1999 South Dakota Learjet crash. We don't call it "The Death of Payne Stewart" Tntad (talk) 22:05, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But what about John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash? ~ HAL333 22:07, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Death of Aaliyah and Death of Stevie Ray Vaughan would also like a word. Nohomersryan (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Per established precedent, a general aviation aircraft accident which involves a wikinotable person is capable of sustaining a stand-alone article. Once I was able to access Wikipedia after tonight's technical difficulties, I created such an article. I'm trying to improve it and all I get is edit conflicts, misformed redirects and redirects. Other editors agree with me that the article should exist, so please let me and others get on with polishing it into shape. Mjroots (talk) 22:14, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I do agree with you this article should exist, and this *is* the article, because it was created first - and per the examples I listed above, it's not unusual on Wikipedia for a famous person to die in an accident, and have the article be titled after them, regardless of other fatalities. If you want it called something else, that's for an RM, not redirecting this to a page created after. Nohomersryan (talk) 22:16, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just wait, this article will soon be moved to one of the several aviation incident type articles already proposed. We don not need any more forking. This article was created before the other, so please add to this one for now. ~ HAL333 22:18, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, the article I created is the one that should exist. The only reason it was created later is because I couldn't get access to Wikipedia due to issues publicised elsewhere affecting Europe. Mjroots (talk) 22:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merge This was merged with the 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash. Kobe's death was the news story of the day and will be for the rest of the month, at the minimum. Unexpected death and one of the most notable basketball players of all time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pennsylvania2 (talk • contribs) 22:26, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why it should be dealt with in a properly developed section in his article.Tvx1 22:39, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the article have an infobox?

There is currently a brewing edit war over Valoem's unilateral decision to repeatedly remove the infobox of the crash from the article. Can we have a discussion about wether the article should have an Infobox for now?

It is completely rational and exactly what I attempted to prevent happened. Valoem talk contrib 02:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Undue information on the article

The initial reason why I am opposed to the inclusion of an aviation accident template with the Death of Kobe Bryant is the fact that information pertinent to the crash and not the death of Kobe may be included. The section involving the victims and investigation have to do with the accident itself and not the death of Kobe. Mentioning unrelated victims in this article trivializes them as people and gives undue weight. Valoem talk contrib 02:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Given how 9 people died let alone Kobe Bryant also dying too, it would have already been enough to merit an aviation article. It's also an aviation accident by definition and warrants an aviation accident template itself. It's used for a lot of celebrity aviation crashes like Payne Stewart and Jenni Rivera. Tntad (talk) 04:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have a video of the crash

Is it acceptable to embed or no? TheEpicGhosty (talk) 23:21, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

TheEpicGhosty, did you record it yourself? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 23:23, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Cofeeandcrumbs, no. (TheEpicGhosty) 23:31, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If there are no copyright issues, go ahead my friend. ~ HAL333 23:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
TheEpicGhosty, then no. That would be a copyright violation. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 23:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Cofeeandcrumbs It could have been recorded by someone he knows, so it might not be a copyright violation if they give him permission. If not it's probably a Youtube video that could be added as a external video. Helloimahumanbeing (talk) 01:01, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily, they might have received permission.Tvx1 00:01, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unequivocally no. If there exists any question of who owns copyright, we cannot use it. And then there's always the question of good taste. I'll oppose its inclusion even with proper copyright release. John from Idegon (talk) 01:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What is this "good taste" you speak of? ShadowCyclone talk 01:56, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
TheEpicGhosty, If you did not record it, then no. The person who made the video, may upload it themselves. -Mardus /talk 09:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is a statement by Trump about death of Kobe Bryant

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221582230008619016 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1221582230990073856 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A315:623B:5180:70E1:B9BC:AA44:7AEF (talk) 00:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We already have one of his statements. ~ HAL333 00:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But this one is longer and more specific than saying "terrible news". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A315:623B:5180:70E1:B9BC:AA44:7AEF (talk) 00:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any particular reason Obama's comment has been given precedence over Trump's? While both POV's are paying respect, I do believe a current president's statement should be ahead of any and all former Presidents. Like the guy or not, he is the sitting President. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.143.0.181 (talk) 01:19, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Trump's statement is a redundancy, that's why. He literally plagiarized Obama's tweet. Yikes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.83.184.15 (talk) 01:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To the above poster -- Umm no. Trump's tweet was sent out more than a hour before Obama's tweet was sent out. Trump was 3:48 pm, Obama was at 4:56 pm. 2600:1700:1EC1:30C0:80C6:5207:C6A8:A4D (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not that it matters either way, where are you getting those times from? I see 3:54 and 1:56 for the times. WikiVirusC(talk) 13:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not even a helicopter crash can be saved from trump derangement syndrome. 08:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2020

include examples of players that performed on-field tributes (zadarius smith, davante adams) Thezozodemon (talk) 00:43, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. OhKayeSierra (talk) 08:42, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of reactions by politicians and others

See CNN. Yoninah (talk) 01:10, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please consider helping add this topic to the S-76 Page

Please consider helping add this topic correctly to the S-76 article. Looking at the history of that page, supporters of the helicopter appear to be trying to bury the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.128.216.114 (talk) 02:11, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tip, I'll look into it in a bit. ~ HAL333 02:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would actually say that data had it rising steadily ~ 1,000 feet per minute. Thirty seconds from the crash, it’s vertical speed dropped to -3500 feet per minute for a vertical acceleration of -300 feet/minute/second. Promptly after, a spike in the data tells me that the pilot attempted to slow the descent as it quickly rose to -2,000 feet per minute in about five seconds before going down again to -5,000 feet per minute. Moonlandingwasahoax (talk) 12:08, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The data I took from flightradar24.com was that the aircraft was moving vertically at about 1,000 feet per minute for ~ 30 seconds. Over the next 15, it dropped to -3,500 feet per minute. The data then tells me that the pilot attempted to pull up again as it spiked to -2,000 feet per minute before plummeting back down to -5,000 feet per minute seconds before the crash. Moonlandingwasahoax (talk) 12:12, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We should update the flight information as flightradar24.com posted the Final Minute of Flight Data. It did indeed drop to -4000 fps but then rose to -2000 fps sharply. Supposably, the pilot attempted to either pull up or slow the descent. Shortly after, the helicopter dropped back down to -5000 fps (approx. 60 mph.) Moonlandingwasahoax (talk) 13:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ATC Radio

The aircraft was flying using VFR under Visual Flight Rules. It was issued a notice to hold in order to avoid traffic at LAX. It then requested Special VFR when the ATC noticed that all airports were under IFR of less then 3 miles of visibility. The pilot was told to follow the 5 n/w bound freeway to the 118 then to the 101, it was then transitioned to Van Nays Delta airspace and was told to advise when in VFR (3 miles visibility) and clearly lost visual contact with the roads it was instructed to follow. at 3:30[1] --2600:8802:2200:2320:B4B4:8237:FD61:8581 (talk) 02:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Video of radar tracking and ATC comms is available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0pQfgi9ZqU Globus Aerostaticus (talk) 03:10, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://forums.liveatc.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15767.0;attach=10604
Please stop wasting others time and learn what constitutes a reliable source. You cannot use either of the above to source anything in the article. John from Idegon (talk) 04:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
While this data cannot be put into the article without further verification, then it suffices for Talk. News outlets can then work to verify the veracity of this recording. -Mardus /talk 09:38, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently no mayday was called, last audible talking from pilot at 17:40:44 UTC and lost contact at 17:45:20, unconfirmed no "MAYDAY, MAYDAY" called. Moonlandingwasahoax (talk) 13:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reduce long quotations

The athletes and politicians sections are almost entirely paragraph-long quotations. Regardless of moving or merging, can this part at least be resolved either by removing quotations or chopping them down significantly to the relevant parts? Kingsif (talk) 03:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I added the particularly long bill clinton one which I only quoted in full for completeness. Feel free to reduce it as you see fit. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Quotations should be shaved down or removed altogether. I know everyone's all emotional right now and that's where most of the edits therein are coming from, but at the end of the day Wikipedia is not an obituary. sixtynine • whaddya want? • 04:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Flightradar24

I've removed the sentence about Flightradar24 data. When it was removed, it said the site "appears" to show an abrupt climb; previously, the claim was not qualified. This is original research, because it is an interpretation of a primary source, namely, the flight data on the site. An interpretation of the data published in a reliable secondary source would be fine, although I think, in the interest of reliability, a quotation from a specialist would be better than, say, a single sentence in a news article. Roches (talk) 03:44, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Completely agree. Keeping an eye out. — MarkH21talk 03:46, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Data would suggest VFR flight into IMC conditions, which lead to a controlled flight into terrain (CFIT). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.33.60.244 (talk) 09:26, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Precedents

In my opinion, as time goes by, this article should evolve into an article about the detailed circumstances of the helicopter crash. Here are four articles about helicopter crashes that killed celebrities that may serve as models, although none of these articles are perfect.

Another minor celebrity who died in a helicopter crash was Jane Dornacker. Although there is no Wikipedia article about that crash, perhaps we should have one. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:50, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other examples: 2018 Leicester helicopter crash (where the article Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha has a link from the 'Death' section) and (though not a helicopter crash) 1999 South Dakota Learjet crash (redirect destination for Death of Payne Stewart, and again it is the main article link from the 'Death' section at Payne Stewart). Carcharoth (talk) 11:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting proposal

It appears there is undue weight given to the crash itself in this article. Historically we have many articles focused on helicopter crashes which do not involve famous individuals. The first section of the article is about the 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash. Both victims unrelated to Kobe and the investigation should be mentioned in article about the accident itself and not the Death of Kobe. In the very near future these sections are likely to receive extensive coverage particularly the sections involving investigations. Typically death articles about notable individuals focus on immediate and long term impact as well as reactions from others. Including other victims in this article trivializes their deaths. The crash itself should be split into 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash. Valoem talk contrib 04:10, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • @MarkH21:, @Fuzheado: and @Nohomersryan: there is already enough information for a separate article, in the next 48 hours there will be an information overflow all involving causes of the accident. The primary issue here is that if Kobe wasn't involved in the accident, there would already be an article titled 2020 Island Express Sikorsky S-76B crash. This crash killed 9 people and is therefore a major accident and is one of the worst helicopter accidents this decade. I'm surprised an article was written about Kobe's death prior to one about the crash. Valoem talk contrib 05:47, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's probably too soon to say that for now. The article in its present form is very bloated with tributes and quotes, and still isn't close to as long as Death of Aaliyah or the JFK Jr article. If there's an issue with an overemphasis on Bryant, I'd prefer moving it to his own page rather than creating one specifically for his death, which seems like it would primarily duplicate existing info. Nohomersryan (talk) 06:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It's better to have topics combined in ONE article if possible. You don't want to have fragmented articles all over wikipeadia. About the subject itself, the crash is explaining the death, and the effect of it. Can I Log In (talk) 05:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Death of Kobe Bryant would receive tons of reactions and impact on society therefore should be separate, however if one was insistent on a single article it would be titled with regard to the accident itself. Valoem talk contrib 05:47, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Simply harebrained to have a third article. If you want a separate article on the crash to focus on the rest of the victims, the Reactions section specific to Bryant should be merged to his main article. Reywas92Talk 09:12, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Victims of the helicopter crash

All 9 of the victims have been identified. Can this information be included? [1] MikaelaArsenault (talk) 12:24, 27 January 2020 (UTC)MikaelaArsenault[reply]

 Done. WWGB (talk) 12:42, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 12:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)MikaelaArsenault[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2020

Under "in sports" Former ice hockey player Teemu Selänne wrote on his Instagram account: so sad... heartbreaking...such a terrible tragedy ,RIP Kobe and Gigi and seven others who lost their lives today. The deepest thoughts and sympathies go to all of their loved ones during this tragic time LepolaAatu (talk) 13:16, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Request using UTC time beside PST time

Can someone add UTC times for the helicopter crash that led to death of Kove Bryant, because I found that PST was equivalent to UTC-08:00 and Indonesian version of this article adding UTC time beside PST time as well.

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